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HumanJHawkins
01-14-2008, 04:08 PM
I'm all for having more difficulty options in the game, but there must be balance. And "Elite" difficulty has already been way out of balance... Here is what I mean:

Average Level 5 quest on normal: Fairly easy for a level 5 party that knows what they are doing. (Good label and actual difficulty)
Average Level 5 quest on Elite: Claims to be Level 7, but equivalent in difficulty to a level 9 quest on normal. (Unbalanced/inaccurate)So, going forward, we are going to have level 16 quests that act like what? Level 22 on elite, but still give the XP and loot of a level 18 quest?

In part I bring this up because I have a friend who is (perhaps too much) focused on PnP. He already refuses to run quests on elite with me because he says they are ridiculously overpowered for the level they claim to be. NOTE: He is not complaining that they are too hard... Mostly just that they are mislabeled... He refuses to run them because he says he doesn't know what to expect... The thing might say it's level 10, but act like a lvl 14, etc.

Nevermind the quests that are just totally inaccurate to begin with... Show me a party... ANY party of casual level 4 gamers who can beat Proof is in the Poison on normal, let alone a level 6 party on elite!

So, are these super-elite quests going to have an accurate description, or am I just going to have to give up my hopes of ever playing with my friend again?

Oran_Lathor
01-14-2008, 04:14 PM
While I do see your point, I think I'm in favor of the change... Currently, at least in the end game, you rarely see people run things on normal. As the old saying goes "Elite is the new normal," or rather it has been the 'new' normal for quite some time. Indeed, quest are generally assumed to be on elite unless the LFM says "so-and-so NORMAL." I really like the idea of some knock-down drag-out quests that can push a good guild group to the limits... but that's me.

Arnya
01-14-2008, 04:17 PM
I

Like

To

Die

...come on Jeff, you know that so...

BRING ON THE SLAUGHTER!!!

The_Phenx
01-14-2008, 04:20 PM
There is a reason they are labeled elite. And a casual party should be able to run any level 4 quest at level 4.

I need a new challenge. Loot is one thing, but winning is an entirely different fun and in some cases it would be nice to use strategy again instead of 10 min thru a quest, because when you are entirely comprised of raid gear and the best weapons... well elite is the only option and even that isnt challenging any more.

Pellegro
01-14-2008, 04:20 PM
I am very much all for the new change - I think the combination fo making normal easier (reuseable shrines anyone?) and elite harder will go far towards helping this game.

Consider - not only will we have truly challenging content that is a PITA to run (on elite), but by giving a good spread, you effectively increase content. The quests coming out in Mod 6 may be impossible for us on elite until we're lvl 20 ... That spreads the content out and increases replayability.

That said, I think the OP has a point. Some of the quests do seem mislabeled. We can run the orcs & hobgoblins in GH on elite with lvl 9s and 10s. Its tough, but can be done. They are mislabeled as lvl 13s. PoP on the other hand, on elite, is nearly impossible at the same level (for me at least).

Impaqt
01-14-2008, 04:20 PM
Perhaps your reading the note wrong, Or perhaps I'm misinterpretting your complaint...

NEW Starting in Module 6, the hard and elite monsters in new quests at very high level (CR 16 and up) will be getting tougher as their starting CR rises. Hard will become increasingly more difficult and elite will become a real challenge. Be prepared to start facing some particularly tough bosses on elite CR 16 and higher quests.

The devs have stated numerous times that Hard does NOT = +1 levof Difficulty and Elite certainly isnt +2. Yes.. The "Quest LEvel" only goes up by 1-2, but difficulty ramps much more.

Currently, theres no game mechanic for CR16 to Raise to.

They are just adding that.

Current quests wont change... (Well, Maybe a few.. theres a few with CR16+ Mobs.... Arent the reavers Air Elementals? I've never noticed them to be significantly harder on hard or elite)

Bottom Line, We wont even notice this as the mobs that re being raised arent int he game yet. Their ELite versions will simply be their elite versions.

Xaymaca
01-14-2008, 04:21 PM
It's nothing more than the Devs making it harder for the Elite Powergamers to achieve their goals (finishing all quests on Elite level over and over).

It merely extends the end game so they'll stick around for a few extra months instead of getting bored and "wandering" into the arms of another game. Same with the 20th raid completion gives all raid loot mechanic.

JayDubya
01-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Most players feel that most quests are not that bad on elite. Proof in the Poison is one of the rare exceptions. But many of the "elite" quests, especially later in the game, are not really nearly as bad as they would seem by the label

Prison of the Planes
Maze of Madness
Desecrated Temple of Vol
Orc, Hobgoblin and Troll lairs in the Gianthold


Many of the powergamers have complained for months that the game is too easy. When you have high level characters with lots of high-quality equipment and raid loot, what was once challenging becomes nearly trivial.

But it's not just those quests. I recently ran Thrall of the Necromancer on elite (a level 10 quest) with a group of 6th, 7th and 8th level characters with no major challenges. Stormcleave was, for a long time, notorious for how easy it was on Elite. There are many quests that I can solo at the appropriate level on elite. And I'm no powergamer.

At the end of the day, Hard should be where Elite is now, and Elite should be something far, far scarier. Not being an elite player, I should struggle with elite dungeons. But that's very rarely the case.

The good news is, you'll have lots of lower level dungeons to run on Elite so you can practice for the harder quests to come. I think it's a good thing they didn't change things retroactively - that would cause angst. But changing quests that have yet to be run is much less of an issue.

Impaqt
01-14-2008, 04:26 PM
It's nothing more than the Devs making it harder for the Elite Powergamers to achieve their goals [B][B](finishing all quests on Elite level over and over).


Huh? Since when has they ever been my goal? Since when has that ever been "The Goal" of power gamers?

lol..... Yes, Ilike to have the elite Completion, but very few quests do Irun over and over on elite.... ANd then its certainly NOT because I like running them on Elite.. Its just better Loot.....

You wanna know our Goal?

We want to Win the game.....

THe Most Favor (Only way to get ther eis Elite)

THe Most Toys (High level Elite drops more toys)

Elite is just a byproduct.....

How many people run The Desert quests now on ELite? we do it once for Favor/XP. THen subsequent runs are almost always on normal for raid flagging.

Strykersz
01-14-2008, 04:26 PM
Current quests wont change... (Well, Maybe a few.. theres a few with CR16+ Mobs.... Arent the reavers Air Elementals? I've never noticed them to be significantly harder on hard or elite)

Bottom Line, We wont even notice this as the mobs that re being raised arent int he game yet. Their ELite versions will simply be their elite versions.

Current quests won't change if the note is accurate. It says "new quests."

Lcdr_Swizzle
01-14-2008, 04:26 PM
I don't mind the boost to the bad guys, but I do hope that the rewards, whether end or in chest, go up as well. I am one of many who do the Reaver Raid on elite, and immediately sell half the stuff, because it's basically junk. How about a scales run? Nice piles of gold, but who needs Masterwork Arrows at 14th level? On most scale runs, pop runs and reaver runs I go on, it seems that 3 to 5 things are left in every chest.

I am not complaining, I am just hoping that if the quests get harder, the rewards be proportionally better. If a quest isn't worth doing a second time, I won't do it a second time.

MrCow
01-14-2008, 04:43 PM
I don't mind the boost to the bad guys, but I do hope that the rewards, whether end or in chest, go up as well.

I have high doubts that they will change the random loot generator or the minimum level formula due to an increase in overall monster power for new quests on harder difficulties. I have a feeling that one of the reasons they are doing this is because the difficulty of +5-10 HD between normal and elite just doesn't scale enough in the higher end quests anymore to show enough of a challenge.

KoboldKiller
01-14-2008, 04:47 PM
As far as I can tell the scorps and spiders are already tough enough on elite I can't imagine what they will be like after the changes. Gonna need Superman to bring em down. :D

Westerner
01-14-2008, 04:56 PM
PNEW Starting in Module 6, the hard and elite monsters in new quests at very high level (CR 16 and up) will be getting tougher as their starting CR rises. Hard will become increasingly more difficult and elite will become a real challenge. Be prepared to start facing some particularly tough bosses on elite CR 16 and higher quests.
I'm worried this will result in further power creep, making only the strongest builds/classes viable at high end.

Mad_Bombardier
01-14-2008, 05:02 PM
I'm worried this will result in further power creep, making only the strongest builds/classes viable at high end.On Elite, probably yes. And that's okay by me. For too long, Normal has been Easy and Hard has been Normal.

In the new system, most people should be able to continue running Normal and Hard. People that want a challenge can run Elite, and get slightly better loot. Loot levels should not change, Turbine's just going to make you earn it now. Unfortunately, that probably means more cheese tactics to get Elite loot (path of least resistance). :(

Raithe
01-14-2008, 05:06 PM
/Sigh

Elite mobs have:
1) the same tactics. AI methods do not change.
2) the same positions. Mobs are simply spawned with higher CR values and stats.
3) the same speed. Their to-hit is higher, but if you can dodge them (beat the AI) on normal, elite makes no difference
4) higher AC, better saves and more hit points. Yet all this means is you have to spend more resources (cast the spell a few times more, etc.)
5) different spells. This is the only difference in gameplay difficulty that occurs - and even it usually boils down to spending more resources to overcome it.

People keep talking like elite provides a higher gameplay difficulty challenge. It doesn't. It's simply more expensive. If you are already rich and can afford the expenditures, you can count on becoming richer from +2 levels of loot and the items that will sell for exorbitant prices on the Auction House. If you aren't rich, elite is often simply frustrating and a way to lose some of what little money you have left.

Elite quests aren't so much about being elite. They are mainly about being elitist.

ArkoHighStar
01-14-2008, 05:10 PM
Proof is in the poison again, this quest was not and is not that hard

ArkoHighStar
01-14-2008, 05:11 PM
As far as I can tell the scorps and spiders are already tough enough on elite I can't imagine what they will be like after the changes. Gonna need Superman to bring em down. :D

and spiders have been toned down :D

Hence
01-14-2008, 05:13 PM
Im concerned that with the changes made to Blade Barrier and Wall of Fire the quests will be artificially more difficult.
Then add on top of that, harder hitting mobs... negating AC, so the paladin and fighter become obsolete and the robe wearing/dual wielding barbarian even more powerful.

Of course this could mean the return of "pulling" mobs, and the skill of "splitting" packs that the people who play this game sorely lack or even have the faintest idea of what Im talking about. Instead of just zerg and burnem method we see now.
I would like to see more advanced techniques like "pulling" and "splitting", but I have only seen a handful of players that want to sit still for more than 2 minutes at a time.

DDO puts the ADD back into the MMO.

That seems to be the slogan right now, lets see if that will change any.

Impaqt
01-14-2008, 05:27 PM
Im concerned that with the changes made to Blade Barrier and Wall of Fire the quests will be artificially more difficult.



What changes to Wall of Fire and Blade Barier? I havent seen any.

Dexxaan
01-14-2008, 05:37 PM
..... DDO puts the ADD back into the MMO.

That seems to be the slogan right now, lets see if that will change any.


LMFAO!!!! Too funny.

You should get a free month for that slogan. (Hint)

Anyway I'm certainly glad that new L16 Quest + will be substantially harder. As long as it doesn't take "Space Invaders meets Donkey Kong Meets Mastermind" tactics.....

Give me hoards of Mobs...waves of them, let the Casters burn thru their Mana and then yelll... Help Me Help me, Incapped!... Let the Cleric be selective about who gets their healing and why...let a real High AC Tank be able to withstand the onslaught while the Barb hacks away at dozens with great cleave while simultaneously his 32 AC drains his 500 HP's like a slurpee in the hands of a Marathon Runner (Not that a marathon runner chugs slurpees....); let the Cleric have to drop his Wands after depleting his SP's on BB's; Buffs and Healing and pick up a Morningstar for once and have to pitch in the Melee back to back with the Bard who can no longer fascinate the mobs 'cause his jukebox is dry!

THATS ELITE IMO.

BRING IT ON!

MrCow
01-14-2008, 05:44 PM
Give me hoards of Mobs...waves of them, let the Casters burn thru their Mana and then yelll... Help Me Help me, Incapped!... Let the Cleric be selective about who gets their healing and why...let a real High AC Tank be able to withstand the onslaught while the Barb hacks away at dozens with great cleave while simultaneously his 32 AC drains his 500 HP's like a slurpee in the hands of a Marathon Runner (Not that a marathon runner chugs slurpees....); let the Cleric have to drop his Wands after depleting his SP's on BB's; Buffs and Healing and pick up a Morningstar for once and have to pitch in the Melee side by side with the Bard who can no longer fascinate the mobs caus his jukebox is dry!

No mention of the ranged weapon-speced builds in here? :p

Emili
01-14-2008, 05:47 PM
What changes to Wall of Fire and Blade Barier? I havent seen any.


Monsters now have a better understanding of the world around them know what to do around doors and some area of effect spells.
Monsters will no longer fight over each other when they're all trying to get to the same place at the same time.


I believe he's refering to this... They seem to be striving to make the mob use player tactics - make them smarter as we requested. I eventually expect the mob to cast spells based on testing our resistances and such. It's foreseeable that they too upon seeing a door blockage will take to similar tactics the players do... as the agro mechanisim will not be thier first priority... survival and killing off the PC's will. The mob on risa seems to care less about tank who intimidated them and rush the caster scorcing them now... which is good imo. The caster mob seem to back up from the door out of harms way as do many range mob... not as much as a pc but is a start.

Swordalot
01-14-2008, 05:48 PM
I'm all for making the game tougher, since most quests even on elite are fairly easy right now.

I'm also all for the Devs making elite mobs hit harder, but why not tone their to-hits down a little? What I mean is, don't give us a breaking point where we cannot be hit, but a little more leeway would be nice. It's just sad that my Dwarf FighterPally Tank can stand with a 53 AC (+4 vs giants) and get hit as consistently as he does. Granted, yes, it's elite, but I just wanna say that it'd be a neat change.

Mostly because I too favor the idea of watching Barbarians get three-shotted. Maybe then we'd see tactics used, and not just by the fighters.

Food for thought.

Impaqt
01-14-2008, 05:51 PM
Monsters now have a better understanding of the world around them know what to do around doors and some area of effect spells.
Monsters will no longer fight over each other when they're all trying to get to the same place at the same time.


I believe he's refering to this... They seem to be striving to make the mob use player tactics - make them smarter as we requested. I eventually expect the mob to cast spells based on testing our resistances and such. It's foreseeable that they too upon seeing a door blockage will take to similar tactics the players do... as the agro mechanisim will not be thier first priority... survival and killing off the PC's will.

Well, thats certainly not a change to the spells.. thats a change to the Mobs...... I want to hear about this change to the spells.

BigBadBarry
01-14-2008, 05:55 PM
I personally think this change is fantastic.

But I'm hoping its not just a ramp up AC, HP and Saves but :

melee mobs hit harder (hurt the DPS low AC melees, makes an AC tank more useful!) or have special effects when they do hit (eg true seeing, transmuting, weakening, reduce fortification temporarily, temporarily cant cast spells);

mob casters cast bigger, better more powerful spells or use better combo's (eg mob cleric casts mass deathward (so no insta-death spells), mob bard puts up mindfog, mob caster casts mass hold person, high dmg meleers engage, mob caster throws flesh to stone at caster, bard puts up dancing ball, cleric spams Mass Cure Mods)

Hence
01-14-2008, 06:06 PM
Monsters now have a better understanding of the world around them know what to do around doors and some area of effect spells.



Yep, that and I read from several posters on the Risia forum about how mobs seem to "freeze" now when they encounter a blade barrier or wall of fire. Upon further searching I came to this FireWall Testing (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130357). I know there is more discussion about it, I just cannot find any of it through the Advanced Search right now.

I am all for making things hard, but that will not change the crazy way people play this game in PUGs. You need to have a static group of friends to get the most enjoyment from this game. Being as I can only play a few hours a week, randomly, static groups do not work for me.

This is not a bad change, what I am saying is it is compounded by the AI changes. Hence, it will be even tougher than the Devs imagine. And it will torture the common PUGger who has the attention span of a gnat.

HumanJHawkins
01-14-2008, 06:35 PM
Proof is in the poison again, this quest was not and is not that hard

Ahh Yes, You run it often in PUGs with no one higher than level 4... And on elite with no one higher than level 6. Well, congrats to you. You are not the norm.

Impaqt
01-14-2008, 06:38 PM
Ahh Yes, You run it often in PUGs with no one higher than level 4... And on elite with no one higher than level 6. Well, congrats to you. You are not the norm.

Acid and Magic Missle make up 75%+ of the damage inthat quest......

Stock up on acid resist pots and Titan Cookies and its a breeze..... I really dont understand why people feel that quest is so difficult.

HumanJHawkins
01-14-2008, 06:46 PM
There is a reason they are labeled elite.

Is there also a reason they are labeled as only 2 levels higher than they started when (according to other post) the Devs have said many times that they are much more difficult than 2 levels higher?

Has anyone considered the alternative that they could be making level 20 content right now... Just because players are capped at 14 (or soon 16) doesn't mean they couldn't make level 20 or higher quests. Then Power gamers could take their level 14s into a level 20 quest for a real challenge. And casual gamers who make it up to level 14 would feel a lot better about turning down party invites for these quests...

And I am sure someone is going to say that is because they don't want uber loot dropping (even though they are happy to make uber quests by agressively upping the difficulty). Well it isn't like the loot tables are carved in granite. They could easily mark the actual level correctly and then reduce the loot drop rate for that level if needed to balance the game.

Impaqt
01-14-2008, 06:57 PM
Is there also a reason they are labeled as only 2 levels higher than they started when (according to other post) the Devs have said many times that they are much more difficult than 2 levels higher?

Has anyone considered the alternative that they could be making level 20 content right now... Just because players are capped at 14 (or soon 16) doesn't mean they couldn't make level 20 or higher quests. Then Power gamers could take their level 14s into a level 20 quest for a real challenge. And casual gamers who make it up to level 14 would feel a lot better about turning down party invites for these quests...

And I am sure someone is going to say that is because they don't want uber loot dropping (even though they are happy to make uber quests by agressively upping the difficulty). Well it isn't like the loot tables are carved in granite. They could easily mark the actual level correctly and then reduce the loot drop rate for that level if needed to balance the game.

We already have quests higher thenthe level cap.... But going out to 20 would be pretty rediculous......

Sorry, you dont have a "Right" to win at Elite. Power gamers dont get good because we magically obtained top tier items and weapons, We werent given magic plans for the best posible character for every situation. We worked at the game and use the game mechanis we are given to our advantage. Sometime that means we need to reroll a character when things change. ANd thats no big deal for the most part.

Basiclly, we dont have an "I Win" Button and We dont have a Cheat code that unlocks 40 Point Builds.

Everything we do is also available to casual gamers. We just work hard at getting there faster. Elite Should be our setting.

Dark_Helmet
01-14-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm all for having more difficulty options in the game, but there must be balance. And "Elite" difficulty has already been way out of balance... Here is what I mean:

Average Level 5 quest on normal: Fairly easy for a level 5 party that knows what they are doing. (Good label and actual difficulty)
Average Level 5 quest on Elite: Claims to be Level 7, but equivalent in difficulty to a level 9 quest on normal. (Unbalanced/inaccurate)So, going forward, we are going to have level 16 quests that act like what? Level 22 on elite, but still give the XP and loot of a level 18 quest?

In part I bring this up because I have a friend who is (perhaps too much) focused on PnP. He already refuses to run quests on elite with me because he says they are ridiculously overpowered for the level they claim to be. NOTE: He is not complaining that they are too hard... Mostly just that they are mislabeled... He refuses to run them because he says he doesn't know what to expect... The thing might say it's level 10, but act like a lvl 14, etc.

Nevermind the quests that are just totally inaccurate to begin with... Show me a party... ANY party of casual level 4 gamers who can beat Proof is in the Poison on normal, let alone a level 6 party on elite!

So, are these super-elite quests going to have an accurate description, or am I just going to have to give up my hopes of ever playing with my friend again?

Wow, they have said (over and over) that Elite does not equal 2 levels more, it is ELITE. The normal quest is based on levels, and Elite is a significant challenge. Why dilute that for those of us who want the challenge?

jacobzzz
01-14-2008, 07:10 PM
lvl 5 = lvl 9?? with a full grp of lvl 5's and lvl 5 quest is easily do able. Also, in end game everything is practically just as fast to do on elite as norm... finally something that might be challenging = me happy

Turial
01-14-2008, 09:16 PM
No mention of the ranged weapon-speced builds in here? :p

Silly MrCow, the ranged builds use the time where the mobs are distracted to sneak around the fight, loot the chest, and finish out. Thats why our kill counts can at time be lower.

Invalid_86
01-14-2008, 10:34 PM
You want to twink the **** out of your characters?
Uber loot?
Overpowered enhancements?
A jacked up version of melee?
Metamagic on crack?
Well this is the side effect. Quit whining.

Seneca_Windforge
01-15-2008, 04:09 AM
Ahh Yes, You run it often in PUGs with no one higher than level 4... And on elite with no one higher than level 6. Well, congrats to you. You are not the norm.

Cast Resist Acid and use potions of Acid Resist (they drop out of breakables, so you may not even have to buy any). Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers should use Nightshield or Shield (Titan Cookies or Shield clickies are also handy for other characters, but hardly necessary). Have at least two wands of Cure/Repair Light Wounds in the party for extra healing (easily affordable by a party of level four characters who have no financial support). If mana runs short, you can always recall out. You shouldn't have to do that more than once, though.

If you can't beat Proof is in the Poison on normal with a group of six level 4's, then the problem isn't that you are "casual" players...it's that you need to learn how to play the game and use half-decent tactics. I know that makes me sound all elitist, but seriously -- if you *can't* do it with six level four characters, the problem is with you, not with the quest.

Hvymetal
01-15-2008, 05:29 AM
Personally, I don't particularly mind the fact that Elite is getting harder. Let's face it folks, right now as things stand Elite is the Normal difficulty many many quests are run at. Elite should be difficult, it should eat up a lot of resources. But having said that I do have a few concerns.....

1. Balancing - Hopefully in their implimentation of this they are going to make it so there are different viable ways to complete quests on Elite, no more firewall fests please, Elite setting should not mean spellcasters only....

2. Exploits/Cheese - Hopefully the Dev's will be extreamly vigilant in watching for/correcting any possible exploits & possibly correct for "cheesy" tactics that basically give people an easy button to complete these quests on Elite. No matter how many people claim they want a challange I know, and I am sure many of you do also whether or not you'll admit it, that if a cheap easy tactic that significantly reduces the threat offered is found it will get used.

3. Favor - My last concern is regarding the favor system. I am slightly concerned that with this change any future favor rewards may require people to have the best builds & best gear available. I feel that any favor rewards should be available to all, sure the uber l33t will aquire these faster (as it should be), but they should at least be obtainable by anyone.

Emili
01-15-2008, 05:30 AM
Well, thats certainly not a change to the spells.. thats a change to the Mobs...... I want to hear about this change to the spells.

Mobs will stop and not enter a FW or BB ... they also will leave them when they are cast upon them... they will avoid semi-persistant aoe damge spells. Thus changes how you will be using said spells they will not be a useful damge spell but instead a barrier.

Emili
01-15-2008, 05:33 AM
.

3. Favor - My last concern is regarding the favor system. I am slightly concerned that with this change any future favor rewards may require people to have the best builds & best gear available. I feel that any favor rewards should be available to all, sure the uber l33t will aquire these faster (as it should be), but they should at least be obtainable by anyone.

This is why I am in the mist of favor capping my second character... they all have over thier 1750, and one is one quest away from favor cap and the other 11 quests behind her.

CDevil
01-15-2008, 06:05 AM
Basiclly... We dont have a Cheat code that unlocks 40 Point Builds.


Huh?

Wait a ding dong minute here... we DON'T?!?!?!?!?

Are you SURE???

I was POSITIVE they were adding one!!!

(sigh)

Oh, well... ANOTHER fervent hope, shot to pieces.

Thanx a lot... :p

akla_thornfist
01-15-2008, 06:21 AM
making elite harder was not the answer they should add another level call it insane or something like that.

Dexxaan
01-15-2008, 07:17 AM
Silly MrCow, the ranged builds use the time where the mobs are distracted to sneak around the fight, loot the chest, and finish out. Thats why our kill counts can at time be lower.

Actually.....who do you think Aggro'd the 1st couple of waves and "Boost-Ran" off to the Quest Spawn Zone in search of safety? :eek:

Cmon Guys. Elite has to have basic rules/features like:

* No recalling out for mana;
* Less shrines (or single use) ;
* More Mobs than Hard and TONS more than Normal (Even if they have the same Stats/HP's and AC.... Simply put more of them will cause the party Mana-Management to be a living nightmare...and THATS when the real fun begins...when your Casters say "No GH 4 you...sry, I'm saving my remaining 125 SP's for the next 2 waves"....
* Throw in De-Buff Traps? or Maybe a corridor with an anti-magic (or anti-element i.e. no fire spells maybe?) effect and a few hundred Kobolds at the other end?
* Major improvement on Rewards / Quest Chests.
* Randomly Positioned (deadly) Traps so we'll ALWAYS be on our toes. (I'd enjoy a Mana Sapping Trap, say it swipes 50% of your existing Mana if it goes off? That'll keep the FW/PK/FOD Finger Waggers in the background right? Maybe even revive Rogues.....?

Just some long talked about "would be neet on elite" ideas.

Taojeff
01-15-2008, 07:24 AM
I am for this, I wish they would make it retro-active and make all quests harder on hard and elite. Basically I am seeing the opposite of what the OP suggests. In many instances I see players of lower level then the quest running it on elite. A level 8 quest run on elite by level 6-7 toons etc.

Go for it turbine.

Westerner
01-15-2008, 09:47 AM
Personally, I don't particularly mind the fact that Elite is getting harder. Let's face it folks, right now as things stand Elite is the Normal difficulty many many quests are run at. Elite should be difficult, it should eat up a lot of resources. But having said that I do have a few concerns.....

1. Balancing - Hopefully in their implimentation of this they are going to make it so there are different viable ways to complete quests on Elite, no more firewall fests please, Elite setting should not mean spellcasters only....

I share your concern. By pushing up the power curve, the relative power of classes may be further unbalanced. Currently, I feel that favors casters.


Cmon Guys. Elite has to have basic rules/features like:
* No recalling out for mana;

I think this would help by making mana more of a managed resource.

aldan
01-15-2008, 09:58 AM
I remember playing my first toon, with nothing uber, no raid loot, and no plat. Stormcleave was actually hard back then. Now of course i have twinked toons and can run SC at lvl 5.


I think the elites are getting abit more difficult due to all the powerful loot out there. Can you imagine running some of this high level content with barebones gear or noobie gear. It would be hard to say the least.

aldan
01-15-2008, 10:00 AM
making elite harder was not the answer they should add another level call it insane or something like that.

They should call it EPIC. Cause if you complete the quest, it will be of epic proportions.

Mad_Bombardier
01-15-2008, 11:01 AM
Cmon Guys. Elite has to have basic rules/features like:

* No recalling out for mana;That's #1. If they can ever implement a mana-flush on reentry (like the Reaver raid), I'd be a happy camper. :) There is nothing more detrimental to the game than blowing through mana on 2 fights, then recalling for more mana.

tihocan
01-15-2008, 11:30 AM
I'm a bit worried about this new "elite" stuff, and hope it's still going to be fun. In particular for melees...

Impaqt
01-15-2008, 11:35 AM
That's #1. If they can ever implement a mana-flush on reentry (like the Reaver raid), I'd be a happy camper. :) There is nothing more detrimental to the game than blowing through mana on 2 fights, then recalling for more mana.

Boo.... Might as well make quest no re-entry period.

What hapens when you Wipe? Many bosses regen and going back in with no mana would be a death sentence.

If y u dotn like players that recall for mana, then you dont need to group withth em.. Or at least dont have to wait for them when they are gone.

THe New/Old chest mechanic should slow the recall for mana quite a bit though.... most poeple wont want to take the chance thatthe chest will be "Accidentally" opened while they are out getting mana.

Mad_Bombardier
01-15-2008, 11:46 AM
Boo.... Might as well make quest no re-entry period.

What hapens when you Wipe? Many bosses regen and going back in with no mana would be a death sentence.

If y u dotn like players that recall for mana, then you dont need to group withth em.. Or at least dont have to wait for them when they are gone.

THe New/Old chest mechanic should slow the recall for mana quite a bit though.... most poeple wont want to take the chance thatthe chest will be "Accidentally" opened while they are out getting mana.If you wiped, I hope you saved a shrine. Recall out, reenter, retreat to the shrine, try again. And on Normal difficulty, shrines will now reset, so this is not a problem. If this were implemented, I agree that bosses would need to not reset/regen.

But, having 3 casters and 1 cleric each recalling out for mana 5 times to blast through a dungeon is the equivalent of throwing a party of 20+ adventurers at the dungeon. And last time I checked, quests were still designed for parties of 4-6 adventurers. If I wanted to win massive battles of attrition, I would have bought D&D: Total War. Quests should still be for 4-6 players with a set number of rests. If you can't play the dungeon within those parameters, you should not be able to complete or loot it.

Jack_No.7
01-15-2008, 11:47 AM
all thats gonna happen when the difficulty gets harder, is make smarter players, and given a few month maybe the casual players will become more elitist, maybe theyll get frustrated with there fellows and seek guilds that work together, not just hang out and laugh all day

sirgog
01-15-2008, 11:48 AM
The ideas of traps that drain mana, and casters reentering with 0 mana, really appeal to me :-). Twisted and evil. I like.

tekn0mage
01-15-2008, 11:48 AM
I am very concerned with the direction these changes are going. Admittedly, many people in this thread who are "for" the changes say they are not "elite" players.

Why then, is a group of players who do not live at the elite level of the game, have such indignant positions about this?

Tired of seeing people burn through the new content on elite? Does anyone not see that making things even harder is just a stall tactic? Rather than improving the rate of content release (so that we have less time to run the same missions over and over), increase the development of the game. That would go MUCH further in reducing the speed runs.

Another myth that people state is how easy it is to "zerg" through missions. The way it's stated, there's almost this animosity towards those who zerg, which is borderline telling other people how to play the game. Aside from that, I assure you that the first few times a mission is played, there is no zerging involved.

Problem is, because Turbine lacks an aggressive development cycle, we then spend the next 6-9 months with nothing more to do than run the same mission over and over again.

250+ runs and ANYONE will get efficient at running a mission. Your premise for "harder content" is flawed.

HumanJHawkins
01-15-2008, 12:20 PM
I am for this, I wish they would make it retro-active and make all quests harder on hard and elite. Basically I am seeing the opposite of what the OP suggests. In many instances I see players of lower level then the quest running it on elite. A level 8 quest run on elite by level 6-7 toons etc.

You are missing a few things... Highly experienced and twinked out toons SHOULD be able to do elite at or below level. If they can't then there is no way casual and/or non-twinked players at level are going to have a chance.

If you want a challenge, try the quest naked. But don't take away other people's elite option just because you want it harder. (That's not a joke... If you want a super-elite or epic difficulty, just make a rule like "No Magic Equipment allowed" or "No equipment higher than min level 6" if that would be too much.)

Finally, I really like the suggestion that an "Epic" difficulty be added. This would be much better than taking away the current "Elite" which a lot of people like.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-15-2008, 12:28 PM
Ahh Yes, You run it often in PUGs with no one higher than level 4... And on elite with no one higher than level 6. Well, congrats to you. You are not the norm.

This quest is challenging for the unprepared, but there are some simple things you can do to get through this quest with little difficulty.
Number one, just like any other quest.....know the quest. Most of the super acid baths can be avoided. The one's that can't don't need more than one person to risk his life over, epsecially if you range a little.
Acid resist/protect, shield or nighshield spells....and of course lots of healing can get you through this quest with no real problem.

Now that being said..........everytime I do this quest, I am amazed at how unprepared everyone is.....and how many people will die in acid baths needlessly.

Pellegro
01-15-2008, 12:38 PM
You are missing a few things... Highly experienced and twinked out toons SHOULD be able to do elite at or below level. If they can't then there is no way casual and/or non-twinked players at level are going to have a chance.

If you want a challenge, try the quest naked. But don't take away other people's elite option just because you want it harder. (That's not a joke... If you want a super-elite or epic difficulty, just make a rule like "No Magic Equipment allowed" or "No equipment higher than min level 6" if that would be too much.)

Finally, I really like the suggestion that an "Epic" difficulty be added. This would be much better than taking away the current "Elite" which a lot of people like.

I don't understand this at all. Why should "casual" or "non-twinked" players "have a chance" to complete Elite difficulty? Doesn't "elite" mean "not casual" and/or "twinked"?

Besides the logical inconsistency of complaining that elite cannot be done by non-elite players ... why do you care? By increasing the difficulty spread of each quest, we all have more content available to us at the difficutly level we want.

Think about it - by making normal easier, the new lvl 15 quests will be runnable by groups of lvl 12-13 on normal. Or by groups lvl 14-16 on hard. And, for when we're lvl 18 or so, it can still be a non-trivial run on elite.

So now the new quests are available from levels 12-18 or so, by merely tweaking difficulty. And if you want easier, run an easier setting.

Raithe
01-15-2008, 01:06 PM
Doesn't "elite" mean "not casual" and/or "twinked"?

No. Absolutely not. It should mean "more difficult than hard." What it actually means is "more expensive than hard."

MrWizard
01-15-2008, 01:12 PM
Average Level 5 quest on normal: Fairly easy for a level 5 party that knows what they are doing. (Good label and actual difficulty)
Average Level 5 quest on Elite: Claims to be Level 7, but equivalent in difficulty to a level 9 quest on normal. (Unbalanced/inaccurate)


Level 5 quest on normal = level 5 quest
Level 5 quest on elite == Level 7 quest.

Meaning....level 5 normal is made for a group of level 5s.

Level 5 elite is made for a group of level 7s.


Each level of difficulty will add a level to the dungeon and monsters, traps, and damage and spells will be changed accordingly.


The 'eliteness' of the quest is usually only an issue if you are lowbieing something. That is a personal preference and you should be ready for a tough run if not twinked or prepared mentally.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-15-2008, 01:19 PM
I would like to see quests made harder by some way other than super HP and damage ability of the baddies (or traps).
We already have a trend in this game of building the highest DPS toon with the highest HP, and considering every other build next to useless.
All of the complaints about zerging or class in-equality etc. really come down to max DPS mentality.
I'd like to see us go away from the firewall specced/spamming Sorcs......not make changes that encourage them.
I'd like to see us go away from the zerging 400+HP Barbs......not encourage them.
I'd like to see us go away from recalling for mana.....not encouraging it.

There are a lot of ways to make things harder without more mob HP and damage.

Better buffed mobs.
More disabling spells cast against us.
One shot random kill traps. (one shot because low-HP toons need to be able to get through traps somehow)
Baddies using max-empowered firewalls and blade barriers (as long as they don't cast them ridiculously fast, they can be avoided)

Those just off the top of my head.....I'm sure there are many other ways.

Dexxaan
01-15-2008, 01:21 PM
No. Absolutely not. It should mean "more difficult than hard." What it actually means is "more expensive than hard."

Bologna!

Elite means a select few can consistently reach the goal. It doesn't necessarily mean twinked toons (I've run with morons with uber gear and they are by no means Elite).

IMO and Experience; A team that knows what to expect from the other 5 (or 11 depends on the Quest) will be much more effective than a bunch of Uber-Geared wannabe's that are looking at kill counter.

Normal is what the Devs see as the "Norm"

Hard is a Cut above, how much of a cut...who knows, but should be quite a bit more challenging than Normal.

Elite is going to take a lot of Tactical execution; SP-Management and tough Party composition choices. Are PUGS going to flourish and enjoy Elite Quests? I think not. And Oh Darn!

Raithe
01-15-2008, 01:31 PM
Bologna!

Salami!



Elite means a select few can consistently reach the goal. It doesn't necessarily mean twinked toons (I've run with morons with uber gear and they are by no means Elite).

IMO and Experience; A team that knows what to expect from the other 5 (or 11 depends on the Quest) will be much more effective than a bunch of Uber-Geared wannabe's that are looking at kill counter.

Normal is what the Devs see as the "Norm"

Hard is a Cut above, how much of a cut...who knows, but should be quite a bit more challenging than Normal.

Elite is going to take a lot of Tactical execution; SP-Management and tough Party composition choices. Are PUGS going to flourish and enjoy Elite Quests? I think not. And Oh Darn!

Please enlighten me. Give me a quest and an example of how you change tactics, conserve mana, and how you switch up your party selection.




Yeah, that's what I thought.

tekn0mage
01-15-2008, 02:16 PM
If the dev's put half as much attention into new content for the game as they do for making things tougher and nerfing, we probably would have more than 5 servers to play on because of all the people having fun.

Making things tougher only appeases the D&D purists (who admittedly do not even attempt the tougher content anyways).

So the question is, why are we doing this again?

maddmatt70
01-15-2008, 02:17 PM
I have more confidence in the player base. When I look at these elite is more elite claims by the developers I just cant help but think about the Abbot. Initially the developers/designers never envisioned the player base healing through the inferno. They did not realize what clerics were truely capable of and that the player base would come to the correct conclusion; specifically, that mana pots are wildly available and that clerics could turn on their metamagics (which in previous mods most clerics did not use nearly as much as they do now) and heal through the inferno. This is just like that scenario as the player base will adapt to this new elite is elite with a different set of tactics, one the developers/designers never envisioned...

HumanJHawkins
01-15-2008, 02:25 PM
I don't understand this at all. Why should "casual" or "non-twinked" players "have a chance" to complete Elite difficulty? Doesn't "elite" mean "not casual" and/or "twinked"?

Ok... well, there is balance in everything. The discussion could go a whole different direction such as, "Why are casual players currently forced to run elite stuff to remain relevant in the game?"

But since DDO has the backward design of making things EASIER as you progress instead of more difficult. (I.e. instead of reducing your attributes automatically as you reach certain favor points to give you more of a challenge, DDO actually says, "You have succeeded quite well and must be an elite highly skilled player. Therefore I am going to give you better attributes and make the game even easier for you. But, your friend who can't get through quests on elite... Well, we are going to keep him at 28 point builds and make sure he has a real hard time getting his hands on tomes."

I hope you get the point that doing quests on elite is required. Therefore must remain accessible to casual players. Either that, or they could adopt the much more reasonable strategy of actually (Gasp!) making things more challenging as people progress in the game.

In fact, it would be quite easy programattically to give everyone full favor for completion of a quest on normal. And then make "hard" difficulty just remove any "Inherent Bonus" and reduce the effectiveness of all items by 1... Elite could convert your inherent bonus into an inherent penalty and give you the equivalent of a curse during the quest as well.

Now, just watch all the people who have been screaming for more difficulty immediately reverse their positions when something fair to casual gamers like the above is suggested. Let the panic begin!

Bogenbroom
01-15-2008, 02:38 PM
Couple of thoughts/points.

Re: Difficulty: I have to agree with the folks who feel Elite already suffers from the flawed approach of simply ramping up mob stats. I feel that the greatest downfall of the game is knowing exactly what to expect. I believe randomization, even randomized selection of just a few options (like is done with traps in some places) would go a long way into increasing the difficulty or elite.
- mobs need to vary their tactics. Some groups should zerg at you, some should lure you, etc. That randomization should change every time the instance restarts.
- mob casters should use a randomly selected set of spells. Every caster should have at least 2 potential spell sets to work with.
- encounter points should randomly select from many more "normal" mobs, some more "hard" mobs, or the standard number of "elite" mobs.

Re: SP drain on entry: I think action needs to be taken to discourage the recalling for spell points. SP drain on re-entry is one approach, but that penalizes folks who recalled from a wipe. Maybe that is a good thing, I am not sure. What I would want, though, is something that caused a problem for the party, not for the caster. Make the XP debt less, but apply to the whole group with each entry after the first. Of course that may lead to griefing, but it also address an imbalance in expectations between classes.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Grond
01-15-2008, 02:45 PM
It's pretty simple, if you can't handle running things on the new elite setting, run them on normal or hard. What's the big deal? I'd rather see elite mean something rather than be the standard difficulty everyone runs.

Hawkins, I disagree that it's 'required,' other than running lower level things at elite for faction if you want some perks. even getting 1750 doesn't require a ton of the high level stuff on elite, although I am sure that finding the high end quests that are easier than others to do on elite will be something that people focused on getting to 1750 will do to minimize the time required.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the player base considers elite to be the standard to run things on.

Dexxaan
01-15-2008, 02:57 PM
Salami!



Please enlighten me. Give me a quest and an example of how you change tactics, conserve mana, and how you switch up your party selection.

You do realize that we are in the "Development" Forum? We are not in the "How it is" Forum...instead we are in the "lets make it this way" forum...geesh!

I'm not a Dungeon designer nor a programmer, but still let's try and enlighten thee with a flashlights ray.

Elite: (As it stands now) Spawn of Whisperdoom, or Made to Order. These Quests require a relatively coordinated effort to run (Hence Group Tactics....if you are at all interested in your companions being with you at the end that is...); They also require a bit more melee DPS than the average quest where you can FOD/PK everything (Specially in Spawn of WDoom - Hence Party Selection is a concern).


Yeah, that's what I thought.

Satisfied? (you can have your Salami back :eek:) Yeah...that's what I thought!

RavenStormclaw
01-15-2008, 03:11 PM
I am not uber. I am not elite. I have no raid loot. I have no super powers. I am not twinked to the hilt. I do not have millions of plat lying around.

Let them make these elite quests even harder. I care not. For I have no fear either! If I die it will be in a blaze of glory and many many foes will be joining me in death before I go.

If you have fear do not enter. If you do not fear death then enter. If you die make them pay for it!

Grathen has spoken. Bring the evil I shall roast it and then put it on ice!

GeneralDiomedes
01-15-2008, 03:36 PM
Salami!
Please enlighten me. Give me a quest and an example of how you change tactics, conserve mana, and how you switch up your party selection.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

What works on Elite works on Normal, but the opposite is not true.

For example, I can and do one-shot most things in Tangleroot with Niacs on Normal, but on Elite that is not true at all. For Elite, I will only pick off casters with Niacs, hypno the rest and only dance the Slayers and Worgs (the Infiltrators are not that dangerous).

Another example. Ogres and Trolls on Elite in Grey Moon are easily capable of one-shotting a level appropriate character. On Normal, we can and do simply buff and melee. On Elite, I will never go toe-to-toe with any Ogre unless it's dancing, and barring that I will range.

On Elite we will also practise pulling things a lot more instead of buff/zerg. It takes more time, but we don't tax our resources as much.

If you want to complete Elite without spending lots on wands and scrolls and recalls, you have to change your tactics. Or have tactics at all. Normal is so easy it doesn't really require tactics.

Pellegro
01-15-2008, 04:18 PM
The "elite is required to remain relevant" argument is not persuasive.

First, your premise -- that people who run things on normal deserve the same rewards as those who run things on elite -- is flawed. Simply put, those who run things on higher difficulties deserve rewards for their efforts.

Second, there is nothing that you get for running elite that is game breaking. 32 point builds and a single +2 tome are nice, but far from game breaking. My original 28 point caster is still quite relevant.

Last, you are assuming that you cannot reach 1750 favor unless you can run everything on elite. I disagree. A casual player may have to reach a higher level than someone who plays everyday in order to hit the benchmark, but they can still do it.

Consider the extreme: Casual player at level 16. I suspect even the most uncoordinated individual who doesn't understand the system at all, who sells all their loot to bartenders (or throws it away), who doesn't recognize the value in what they pull when they do pull something nice, who doesn't have the rules memorized and know when to do what against whom, etc. .... That player, at level 16, can still do any quest in the game between levels 1-10 on elite. And they can do a handful of them on elite up through all GiantHold content. And they will be able to do all content in the game on normal. I guaranty you that is more than 1750 favor.

I'm not suggesting that most casual players will have to be level 16 before they hit the 1750 benchmark ... my point is merely that your premise that such players cannot reach it if quests over level 14 are harder on elite is flawed.

LOUDRampart
01-15-2008, 04:31 PM
... or am I just going to have to give up my hopes of ever playing with my friend again?

The bottom answer is as long as your friend is this rigid in his mmo thinking, then yes, you might as well give up hope to play on any level above normal with him/her... sorry but that's the way it is.

LOUDRampart
01-15-2008, 04:38 PM
Making things tougher only appeases the D&D purists (who admittedly do not even attempt the tougher content anyways). I would assert your assertion is inaccurate.:D


So the question is, why are we doing this again?This is a question I've wondered since closed beta...

GlassCannon
01-15-2008, 04:40 PM
There is a reason they are labeled elite. And a casual party should be able to run any level 4 quest at level 4.

I challenge you to roll up a completely untwinked Recommended build(28 point, go start a Trial account to do it or hop to a diff server), no multiclassing, chest-pulls-only for equipment, and go complete quests like Proof is in the Poison at level 4. No, no UMD. No, no cure potions.

The point is that they are mislabeled, and very seriously so.

Raithe
01-15-2008, 04:47 PM
Elite: (As it stands now) Spawn of Whisperdoom, or Made to Order. These Quests require a relatively coordinated effort to run (Hence Group Tactics....if you are at all interested in your companions being with you at the end that is...); They also require a bit more melee DPS than the average quest where you can FOD/PK everything (Specially in Spawn of WDoom - Hence Party Selection is a concern).


You probably picked some of the worst examples in the game (decent ones are like what General Diomedes shows in his post). Both "Made to Order" and "Spawn of Whisperdoom" can be nightmares on normal if you don't approach them the right way. The name of the game here is to show how good tactics differ from normal to elite, not show how you might need tactics with an untwinked party on elite and on normal you don't. (I've run both Spawn of Whisperdoom and Made to Order on elite as a complete zerg, and with twinked out characters it is much less expensive - but that's not what we are arguing about.)


What works on Elite works on Normal, but the opposite is not true.

You are right, the opposite is not true. The funny thing is, though, the parts that stop being true going from normal to elite are things like banishers, smiters, and disruptors stop working as well. I don't think we would call owning those types of weapons a symbol of the non-elite. Everything else that you might try on normal will scale to elite, only be more costly in terms of equipment and spell points. In 99.9% of situations, finding a good tactic on normal means you have found the good tactic for elite.



For example, I can and do one-shot most things in Tangleroot with Niacs on Normal, but on Elite that is not true at all. For Elite, I will only pick off casters with Niacs, hypno the rest and only dance the Slayers and Worgs (the Infiltrators are not that dangerous).

Another example. Ogres and Trolls on Elite in Grey Moon are easily capable of one-shotting a level appropriate character. On Normal, we can and do simply buff and melee. On Elite, I will never go toe-to-toe with any Ogre unless it's dancing, and barring that I will range.

So are these examples of more complicated, skillful sets of tactics being used on elite, or are you actually "upping" the difficulty of normal by taking on more killing as a soloist? I think you answer that below:



On Elite we will also practise pulling things a lot more instead of buff/zerg. It takes more time, but we don't tax our resources as much.

If you want to complete Elite without spending lots on wands and scrolls and recalls, you have to change your tactics. Or have tactics at all. Normal is so easy it doesn't really require tactics.

The bolded part is true, but only because your "gear level" makes normal inconsequential. In later levels and quests, gear level doesn't really make normal inconsequential and the exact same tactics that work well on normal, work well on elite. It's only a question of how much time and plat is required.

Mad_Bombardier
01-15-2008, 05:32 PM
Last, you are assuming that you cannot reach 1750 favor unless you can run everything on elite. I disagree. A casual player may have to reach a higher level than someone who plays everyday in order to hit the benchmark, but they can still do it.An interesting note. With current max favor of 2559, you can achieve 1710 favor without ever having run an Elite quest. If they add at least 60 favor in Mod6, you'll be able to get a 1750 with no Elites at all (everything on Hard).

Hvymetal
01-15-2008, 06:11 PM
What I find funny about all the clamouring for Elite to get Eliter is that when we actually do get a extremely hard quest (The New Abbot Raid), most of the "Elite" give it up after a week or two complaining that it is unbeatable in it's current form and want it nerfed.......

Dexxaan
01-15-2008, 07:22 PM
What I find funny about all the clamouring for Elite to get Eliter is that when we actually do get a extremely hard quest (The New Abbot Raid), most of the "Elite" give it up after a week or two complaining that it is unbeatable in it's current form and want it nerfed.......

I know it's a pain to read all posts but answering your comment You obviously didn't read my previous post regarding Arcade-Game Requirements/Mentality (Abbot Raid mainly)


Transcribing:

Anyway I'm certainly glad that new L16 Quest + will be substantially harder. As long as it doesn't take "Space Invaders meets Donkey Kong Meets Mastermind" tactics.....

Give me hoards of Mobs...waves of them, let the Casters burn thru their Mana and then yelll... Help Me Help me, Incapped!... Let the Cleric be selective about who gets their healing and why...let a real High AC Tank be able to withstand the onslaught while the Barb hacks away at dozens with great cleave while simultaneously his 32 AC drains his 500 HP's like a slurpee in the hands of a Marathon Runner (Not that a marathon runner chugs slurpees....); let the Cleric have to drop his Wands after depleting his SP's on BB's; Buffs and Healing and pick up a Morningstar for once and have to pitch in the Melee back to back with the Bard who can no longer fascinate the mobs 'cause his jukebox is dry!

THATS ELITE IMO.

BRING IT ON!

Raithe
01-15-2008, 07:49 PM
What I find funny about all the clamouring for Elite to get Eliter is that when we actually do get a extremely hard quest (The New Abbot Raid), most of the "Elite" give it up after a week or two complaining that it is unbeatable in it's current form and want it nerfed.......

Most of the people playing this game don't seem to be interested in perfecting execution of game mechanics, but seem really good at spending lots and lots of time clamoring for loot. When they want something to be "difficult," they actually mean... "I want it to be easy, but only for me and my twin Deathnips."


Anyway I'm certainly glad that new L16 Quest + will be substantially harder. As long as it doesn't take "Space Invaders meets Donkey Kong Meets Mastermind" tactics.....

I'll admit most of the "puzzles" that the developers use in these quests are corny brain teasers that don't fit the fantasy genre very well at all. That doesn't mean, however, that maneuvering, targetting, and solving complex problems should be removed from the game - they just need to be better, more sophisticated fantasy versions. I fail to see what you would call "difficulty" if you aren't including those things a player can actually gain skill at while sitting at a keyboard...

Pellegro
01-15-2008, 07:56 PM
What I find funny about all the clamouring for Elite to get Eliter is that when we actually do get a extremely hard quest (The New Abbot Raid), most of the "Elite" give it up after a week or two complaining that it is unbeatable in it's current form and want it nerfed.......

That's a very fair point, and since I haven't even qualified for the raid yet much less run it, I cannot comment on it.

But its one quest.

Even if this one quest is super duper hard - so hard that most people try it adn walk away scratching their heads saying "why the heck did I just do that" ... I dont' care. I think its cool, in fact, because I know someone, somewhere, will finally beat it. And when they do ... it will be really really awesome.

Anyhow, I don't think anyone is asking for that level of difficulty on normal (which the Abbott raid has). I think its just nice to have soemthing out there that you blow through ... something to aspire to. I hope I try the new quests on elite and they kick my butt! It will make figuring them out that much sweeter.

Dexxaan
01-15-2008, 08:04 PM
That's a very fair point, and since I haven't even qualified for the raid yet much less run it, I cannot comment on it.
But its one quest.

Even if this one quest is super duper hard - so hard that most people try it adn walk away scratching their heads saying "why the heck did I just do that" ... I dont' care. I think its cool, in fact, because I know someone, somewhere, will finally beat it. And when they do ... it will be really really awesome.

Anyhow, I don't think anyone is asking for that level of difficulty on normal (which the Abbott raid has). I think its just nice to have soemthing out there that you blow through ... something to aspire to. I hope I try the new quests on elite and they kick my butt! It will make figuring them out that much sweeter.

Like you stated, since you haven't run it, nor qualified for it you cannot (actually should not to be fair) comment on it.

It's annoying...not challenging. And per many accounts of people I run with and spent (myself) many hours trying to crack it....simply Buggy.

Unlike the Titan which took brainmatter and team Cooperation to knock out. (It excluded Donkey Kong meets Space Invaders Tactics as well. - Congrats Turbine...That was a nice Raid design)

sirgog
01-15-2008, 08:27 PM
I definitely use different strategies on normal, hard and elite. STK is a good example of this.

Most quests on normal require no strategy other than run to the end ignoring mobs, then kill the boss.

Try this on elite (on a level-appropriate party) and it's a guaranteed wipe. Instead, you take it slower, using crowd control effects, maybe killing mobs as you go, tanks need to use Intimidate to keep the mobs away from the squishies, and you avoid some tough optional fights unless you are twinked like mad. You put cure wands or stacks of potions on your hotbar rather than just relying on the Cleric's SP like you can on Normal. And you don't use spells (like Niac's) with a save for no effect unless you know the mob has a bad save against that spell.

Raithe
01-15-2008, 11:38 PM
Try this on elite (on a level-appropriate party) and it's a guaranteed wipe.

No, its not. Trial by Fire is a level 15 quest on elite, and couldn't be more suited for what you described. There aren't any level 15 characters in the game, so it's actually over a "level-appropriate" party. Oh yeah, and it's soloed like that, all the time.

I get the feeling that people who think elite is so elite haven't been playing the game very long.

Invalid_86
01-15-2008, 11:47 PM
Making things tougher only appeases the D&D purists (who admittedly do not even attempt the tougher content anyways).


We don't?

HumanJHawkins
01-16-2008, 11:19 AM
<CUT>Give me hoards of Mobs...waves of them<CUT>

I sincerely hope that this happens, but I think there is a technological reason that this has never been done. I.e. it would increase the minimum system requirements for both CPU, Video Card, and internet bandwidth.

I know people who would not be able to play, and could not afford to upgrade if this happened.

That said, I hope they do it anyway, within quests... People with machines that can't cut it could just avoid those quests. It would be worth doing because it would really breath a breath of fresh air into the game.

Kobold assault for example, is boring and few people really like it... But if the kobolds came in 20 to 30 at a time, it would be a blast! Gianthold Tor comes closest to this, perhaps because the giants are big enough and swing far enough and spawn quickly enough after each dies, that it feels like there are a lot more of them than there really are.

But, can you imagine a high level quest where there were 20 to 30 high DC hobgoblins coming at a time, smart enough to avoid firewalls, etc? That would be awesome.

Drider
01-16-2008, 05:30 PM
We don't?

You must have.. because we've all admitted to it apparently.

GlassCannon
01-17-2008, 05:16 AM
We don't?

Permadeath.

Top level quest on Elite.

They don't do it.

Strykersz
01-17-2008, 01:26 PM
I sincerely hope that this happens, but I think there is a technological reason that this has never been done. I.e. it would increase the minimum system requirements for both CPU, Video Card, and internet bandwidth.

I know people who would not be able to play, and could not afford to upgrade if this happened.

That said, I hope they do it anyway, within quests... People with machines that can't cut it could just avoid those quests. It would be worth doing because it would really breath a breath of fresh air into the game.

Kobold assault for example, is boring and few people really like it... But if the kobolds came in 20 to 30 at a time, it would be a blast! Gianthold Tor comes closest to this, perhaps because the giants are big enough and swing far enough and spawn quickly enough after each dies, that it feels like there are a lot more of them than there really are.

But, can you imagine a high level quest where there were 20 to 30 high DC hobgoblins coming at a time, smart enough to avoid firewalls, etc? That would be awesome.

There is a technological reason but it's not on the user end. Run through the catacombs without killing anything sometime. You'll get to the Crypt of Gerard and find out the reason why. I haven't tested if the "hardware upgrade" changed anything, but it seems that the resources assigned to each instance are only sufficient for 80-90 active monsters.

ArkoHighStar
01-17-2008, 01:49 PM
I challenge you to roll up a completely untwinked Recommended build(28 point, go start a Trial account to do it or hop to a diff server), no multiclassing, chest-pulls-only for equipment, and go complete quests like Proof is in the Poison at level 4. No, no UMD. No, no cure potions.

The point is that they are mislabeled, and very seriously so.


I have done that, when the server merge was anounced I rolled up a fighter on mabar to get favor for drow , as did a bunch of us, we ran it at lvl 4 on normal. Was the quest a cake walk no but it wasn't impossible either, you just had to take it a little slower and take each mob at a time, none of us had uber gear, I was wearing +1 fullplate with a +1 greataxe, the casters had no potency items, we just played like we did when the game first came out, we did not zerg, we pulled mobs, we stopped to heal up, if we had supplies etc. To be honest it was actually quite fun as we cranked out 400 favor in a week on all the quests that were uber easy on our regular server, were that much more difficult , they were to put it best a challenge again
The problem with this quest is that it is so low level that we are comparing it to quests we all have done many times. When the game first came out Water works took 2 nights and you were awed by getting your reward list at the end, now most can solo it on a non twinked tank.

Jhoran
01-17-2008, 01:55 PM
i'm excited about this....IF the rewards are proportionate to the efforts. (i know; i know...i'm a loot mongering elitist *****)

i remember the old days when it was a heck of an accomplishment to finish threnal east 3 on elite (it was almost impossible). of course; not many people tried to run it because the only reward was a few more favor.

since exp isn't really a reward at the high levels.....and favor isn't really a reward at the high levels (for the most part)...that leaves loot (and a sense of accomplishment) as the only driving force to tackle a really, really tough quest.

how about scaling named items in quests based on the difficulty level; maybe +6 dex boots on normal are +6 dex boots with 5% striding on hard and 10% striding on elite....or something like that..

i know i'm going totally against the current of this thread here...but if quests are significantly harder; there need to be significantly better rewards for running them...

ArkoHighStar
01-17-2008, 02:04 PM
If the dev's put half as much attention into new content for the game as they do for making things tougher and nerfing, we probably would have more than 5 servers to play on because of all the people having fun.

Making things tougher only appeases the D&D purists (who admittedly do not even attempt the tougher content anyways).

So the question is, why are we doing this again?

Since the change is not retroactive to earlier quests, it seems that this was part of the design philosophy for these quests, and this part of the development of new content.
And while boredom and running quests over and over again made them easier, it is obvious that some quests were just too easy from day one. POP and DTOV are perfect examples of quests that were run on elite from almost day one, we wanted the best loot and POP on elite was the easiest way to get it. Quests like madstone took time before they became easy on elite, and extended their life span I believe, these days I hate POP but I will do a madstone or crucible run, because I have not burned myself out on it.

Invalid_86
01-17-2008, 04:18 PM
Permadeath.

Top level quest on Elite.

They don't do it.

I was more addressing the idea that D&D purists won't play the hard quests on elite. D&D purist isn't the same as permadeath either, is it?