PDA

View Full Version : Found out today...



BUpcott
01-08-2008, 12:48 PM
Max bid on items on AH?!?

My heart breaks

Yaga_Nub
01-08-2008, 12:53 PM
Max bid on items on AH?!?

My heart breaks

Lol.

BlueLightBandit
01-08-2008, 01:03 PM
There's a very good reason for that btw.

Now if only I could somehow link to all 652 existing threads regarding that in one post... hrmm. (/sarcasm off)

Basically, there is a finite amount of plat any one character can have on them at a given point in time. It's not a choice made by Turbine, rather it's a direct result of the limitation of computers as we know them today. Maybe in a few decades we'll be able to surpass the laws of physics as they apply to electrical engineering, but until then your characters can only have something like 4.2 million plat on them at any given time.

As a direct result, Turbine imposes a cap of 2 million plat on the auction house... there were a few complaints when people first started realizing this many many months ago. But the fact of the matter is, that if your characters have more than 2 million plat, then any complaints you make is akin to Bill Gates complaining about his income taxes... meaning that A. you can find bigger things to worry about and B. those who don't have 2 mil plat won't take any complaints by those who do have 2 mil plat seriously (I mean, rich people complain about everything, right?)

So yes... there is a limit on how much you can bid on an item.

Arianrhod
01-08-2008, 01:56 PM
In that case, they should just make that max bid the default buyout price when people don't set a buyout.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-08-2008, 02:01 PM
Basically, there is a finite amount of plat any one character can have on them at a given point in time. It's not a choice made by Turbine, rather it's a direct result of the limitation of computers as we know them today. Maybe in a few decades we'll be able to surpass the laws of physics as they apply to electrical engineering, but until then your characters can only have something like 4.2 million plat on them at any given time.

Bull.... There is no such limit. You can record numbers into the trillions and beyond with little difficulty, it just changes how you represent the number. Correct would be saying the way Turbine designed the game created a 4.2 mil plat limit.


As a direct result, Turbine imposes a cap of 2 million plat on the auction house... .

That's not a direct result, its a choice, likely to keep the economy in check somewhat. (Lord knows I'll never have 2mil plat on a char to place any of those bids anyway). A direct result would limit the bid to 4 million plat.

Swordalot
01-08-2008, 02:41 PM
Bull.... There is no such limit. You can record numbers into the trillions and beyond with little difficulty, it just changes how you represent the number. Correct would be saying the way Turbine designed the game created a 4.2 mil plat limit.



That's not a direct result, its a choice, likely to keep the economy in check somewhat. (Lord knows I'll never have 2mil plat on a char to place any of those bids anyway). A direct result would limit the bid to 4 million plat.

It's not so much a coding written into the game as [going into what I *think* it is, correct me if I'm wrong] the maximum limit of a 32-bit system, that is, 2^32, or 4,294,967,296.

It's not that it's coded, it's just how a 32-bit system functions. Now, if they were to upgrade magically to a 64-bit system, the max would be insanely large, at 1.84467441 × 10^19

It's the same as the reason why in early video games, things were often capped at 256 (Earthbound, anyone?) because they were run on an 8-bit system, and 2^8=256.

MysticTheurge
01-08-2008, 02:44 PM
It's not so much a coding written into the game as [going into what I *think* it is, correct me if I'm wrong] the maximum limit of a 32-bit system, that is, 2^32, or 4,294,967,296.

It's not that it's coded, it's just how a 32-bit system functions. Now, if they were to upgrade magically to a 64-bit system, the max would be insanely large, at 1.84467441 × 10^19

It's the same as the reason why in early video games, things were often capped at 256 (Earthbound, anyone?) because they were run on an 8-bit system, and 2^8=256.

Ok, but then how does the little calculator on my computer manage to figure out 999,999,999 + 1 is equal to 1,000,000,000?

I mean, computers can handle numbers larger than 2^32, that's just not how Turbine coded DDO. Which was Lorien's point.

Laith
01-08-2008, 02:46 PM
It's not so much a coding written into the game as [going into what I *think* it is, correct me if I'm wrong] the maximum limit of a 32-bit system, that is, 2^32, or 4,294,967,296.

It's not that it's coded, it's just how a 32-bit system functions. Now, if they were to upgrade magically to a 64-bit system, the max would be insanely large, at 1.84467441 × 10^19It is WELL within their capability to "magically" upgrade their 32-bit variable to a 64-bit variable or larger.

There are other reasons for the limit.

Arnya
01-08-2008, 02:49 PM
There was also the computer program that calulated that the number representing PI has no repetitions of any 3 sequences of numbers until after the billionth number?

Think it was a supercomputer but, hey, it is possible.

Swordalot
01-08-2008, 02:51 PM
Ok, but then how does the little calculator on my computer manage to figure out 999,999,999 + 1 is equal to 1,000,000,000?

I mean, computers can handle numbers larger than 2^32, that's just not how Turbine coded DDO. Which was Lorien's point.

This is true (though any 32-bit machine can handle 999,999,999 + 1;)). I don't know why they would choose to write in a 32-bit system, perhaps because of compatibility issues (ie people still run many 32-bit processors, and 64-bit are only really becoming prevalent the last couple years, long after DDO coding began) but without more knowledge on the subject, I really can't say with confidence that a 32-bit machine would have no ability to run a 64-bit program, nor can I say why they would choose 32-bit. I was just giving the basis for the 4-billion-ish cap, to say that it's not just an arbitrary number.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-08-2008, 02:52 PM
It's not so much a coding written into the game as [going into what I *think* it is, correct me if I'm wrong] the maximum limit of a 32-bit system, that is, 2^32, or 4,294,967,296.

It's not that it's coded, it's just how a 32-bit system functions. Now, if they were to upgrade magically to a 64-bit system, the max would be insanely large, at 1.84467441 × 10^19

It's the same as the reason why in early video games, things were often capped at 256 (Earthbound, anyone?) because they were run on an 8-bit system, and 2^8=256.

I'm aware of the 32 bit limit... I'm sure you are aware that nothing stops you from using multiple memory locations to store larger numbers. They could also introduce some new rare metal that's worth 10 plat and right there more the system to 40 million plat without any mathmatical acrobatics.



I was just giving the basis for the 4-billion-ish cap, to say that it's not just an arbitrary number.

Oh its not arbitary but it is a coding decision, not a hard fact based on the rules of mechanical science as was suggested earlier in the thread :)

Swordalot
01-08-2008, 02:55 PM
*snip*
They could also introduce some new rare metal that's worth 10 plat and right there more the system to 40 million plat without any mathmatical acrobatics.

Not really. The cap is 4-billion-sh copper which translates to 4-million-ish plat. Unless the new metal was something that the game didn't store as a value of copper. Or they could, probably, just make it not store it as copper, but as plat, or the new metal, which I shall call Richnium.

Laith
01-08-2008, 02:58 PM
This is true (though any 32-bit machine can handle 999,999,999 + 1;)). I don't know why they would choose to write in a 32-bit system, perhaps because of compatibility issues (ie people still run many 32-bit processors, and 64-bit are only really becoming prevalent the last couple years, long after DDO coding began) but without more knowledge on the subject, I really can't say with confidence that a 32-bit machine would have no ability to run a 64-bit program, nor can I say why they would choose 32-bit. I was just giving the basis for the 4-billion-ish cap, to say that it's not just an arbitrary number.The OSs that DDO was released for are written in 32-bit. This is why DDO is a 32-bit program.

If you're running Windows, odds are your 64-bit processor is functioning at 32-bit. (Outside of Vista and a couple other exceptions that never caught on)

Most software is 32-bit still. This will probably remain the case for a couple years as 64-bit OSs like Vista catch on.

This is the same reason HD TV is taking so long to propogate in the US: the hardware is out there, but since few own it, the networks have been reluctant to start broadcasting.

As far as the 4mil plat cap having anything to do with existing on a 32-bit system: it doesn't. You're gonna have to trust us.

MysticTheurge
01-08-2008, 02:59 PM
This is true (though any 32-bit machine can handle 999,999,999 + 1;)).

Oh yeah. Damn you decimal place.

Well, anyway, it goes up to hundreds of trillions before it converts to scientific notation, and really I think that's mostly because it doesn't have room in the UI to display numbers any larger than that.

The point is, they chose to make the number what it is.

Swordalot
01-08-2008, 03:04 PM
The point is, they chose to make the number what it is.

I suppose I have to concede that point (though I wasn't meaning to seem like I was fighting it, just.. erm.. justifying. I guess. But poorly.).


You're gonna have to trust us.

Mkay then... I guess.

Laith
01-08-2008, 03:07 PM
Mkay then... I guess.Sorry, this isn't really Programming Theory 201. :)

Swordalot
01-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Sorry, this isn't really Programming Theory 201. :)
[off-topic and probably more suited for a pm but oh well]
Yeah, I figured you had "actual knowledge" (rather than my knowledge which is more like, "I think this because I kinda remember reading something similar about it once, but that was awhile ago and that muffin smell was distracting me anyway. Mmm, muffins.." and so on.) backing you, since you kinda just said "No, because I said so" which I'm okay with, as I *did* say to correct me if I'm wrong. So thanks for letting me know :p
[/off-topic and probably more suited for a pm but oh well]

Lorien_the_First_One
01-08-2008, 03:32 PM
Not really. The cap is 4-billion-sh copper which translates to 4-million-ish plat. Unless the new metal was something that the game didn't store as a value of copper. Or they could, probably, just make it not store it as copper, but as plat, or the new metal, which I shall call Richnium.

Oh right, my bad... that gives them even less excuse... They could use seperate variables to store each type of coin and therefore you could have 4 billion plat, 4 billion gold, 4 billion silver, and 4 billion copper. Set the rollover math not to roll gold into plat automatically if your plat count is already 4 billion.

Dane_McArdy
01-08-2008, 03:49 PM
I like pie. Not all pies, but some pies.








That's all I got.

Ringos
01-08-2008, 04:03 PM
I too like pie.

Tyrande
01-08-2008, 04:06 PM
Oh right, my bad... that gives them even less excuse... They could use seperate variables to store each type of coin and therefore you could have 4 billion plat, 4 billion gold, 4 billion silver, and 4 billion copper. Set the rollover math not to roll gold into plat automatically if your plat count is already 4 billion.

or, they could just use a new data structure class like the Java BigInteger class that NASA uses.
However, displaying those Big Integers are going to be a problem.

You know why 64 bit computers come about? Because Bill Gates cannot compute his net worth using 32 bit integers! :D

fefnir3284
01-08-2008, 07:42 PM
actually they cant, nor should they change the plat variable.

answer me this, how many items do you buy and sell and bid on in a single day, or loot run? answer is ALOT. now all the solutions you posed add multiple more steps to the calulations that would need to be performed and this means not only multiple places for hiccups to occur but a need for two, three, or even 10 times the porcessing power, and I sorry to say but turbine is in the market to make money not lose it. besides with all the different platforms, and OSes, and everything else that is out there DDO have to be as simple as possible, as to be as efficient and capable as it is. one integer is the easy and simpliest way to go

Lorien_the_First_One
01-08-2008, 10:12 PM
actually they cant, nor should they change the plat variable.

answer me this, how many items do you buy and sell and bid on in a single day, or loot run? answer is ALOT. now all the solutions you posed add multiple more steps to the calulations that would need to be performed and this means not only multiple places for hiccups to occur but a need for two, three, or even 10 times the porcessing power, and I sorry to say but turbine is in the market to make money not lose it. besides with all the different platforms, and OSes, and everything else that is out there DDO have to be as simple as possible, as to be as efficient and capable as it is. one integer is the easy and simpliest way to go

Do your really think it takes 10 times the processing power because we have plat as well as gold? All the math we do with money is simple addition and subtraction, exactly how many CPU cycles do you think it takes to do that?

TechNoFear
01-08-2008, 11:57 PM
Even on a 32bit OS you can use storage greater than 32 bits.

How do you think my commercial DBs hold more than 360 million records per year using an numerical identity ObjectReference? (for faster searching than a GUID)

Also an 'int' in VB is very different to an 'int' in C/C++.

However in the C standard, an 'int' is defined depending on the processor used, see 'INT_MAX'.

The limit in DDO is database storage. AFAIK DDO uses SQL Server (and includes a standard MFC dll to my surprise).

SQL Server has 'bigint' which will hold +/- 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (ie double this for an unsigned field) in 64 bits.

Or 'money' which can hold +/- 922,337,203,685,477.5808.

These are available on 32 bit OS's.

Mercules
01-09-2008, 08:29 AM
Bull.... There is no such limit. You can record numbers into the trillions and beyond with little difficulty, it just changes how you represent the number. Correct would be saying the way Turbine designed the game created a 4.2 mil plat limit.



That's not a direct result, its a choice, likely to keep the economy in check somewhat. (Lord knows I'll never have 2mil plat on a char to place any of those bids anyway). A direct result would limit the bid to 4 million plat.

I'm betting the 2 Mil limit to bids is because it is half of the 4 Mil limit that you could have on your character. Thus you could have enough cash to make a max bid and have an item out there on max bid and not "Loose" money should you not get the one item and have the other sell and start pulling money out of your mailbox.

Aside from that... why would anyone spend 2 Mil on anything in this game? No one else sees this as silly?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-09-2008, 09:26 AM
I'm betting the 2 Mil limit to bids is because it is half of the 4 Mil limit that you could have on your character. Thus you could have enough cash to make a max bid and have an item out there on max bid and not "Loose" money should you not get the one item and have the other sell and start pulling money out of your mailbox.

Aside from that... why would anyone spend 2 Mil on anything in this game? No one else sees this as silly?

Oh ya, its all a theoretical discussion. I bet there are very few people with more than 4mil plat or by that many 2mil plat items (Heck I don't think I even own 2mil plat between all my chars :p). You either have to be a plat buyer, spend an insane number of hours in game, or be very very very lucky in your pulls and sell all your good stuff.

bobbryan2
01-09-2008, 12:52 PM
Oh ya, its all a theoretical discussion. I bet there are very few people with more than 4mil plat or by that many 2mil plat items (Heck I don't think I even own 2mil plat between all my chars :p). You either have to be a plat buyer, spend an insane number of hours in game, or be very very very lucky in your pulls and sell all your good stuff.

There are plenty of people out there that buy things off the auction house for 1+ million plat.

If you're good at using the auction house, you can liquidate a few items for 3million in a week or so.

It's not simply a theoretical discussion. It's actually an issue for some people.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-09-2008, 12:54 PM
There are plenty of people out there that buy things off the auction house for 1+ million plat.

If you're good at using the auction house, you can liquidate a few items for 3million in a week or so.

It's not simply a theoretical discussion. It's actually an issue for some people.

You earn 3million plat a week? :eek: Can I be your new best friend?

bobbryan2
01-09-2008, 01:41 PM
You earn 3million plat a week? :eek: Can I be your new best friend?

I didn't say I earn 3 million in a week... I have just done it. It's not an every week kinda thing... but when I need to liquidate, I easily can. It's just a matter of knowing how to use the auction house.

Personally I find the 4 million personal cap and the 2 million bidding cap to both be kinda silly. I say let people earn what they can earn, and pay what they want to pay.

But, I don't design the game. :)

Riggs
01-09-2008, 09:35 PM
My plat always caps out at 256. I think I am still running an Apple 2E. On the plus side Loderunner is lots of fun.

or it could be I keep spending money on weapons I dont really need.

MysticTheurge
01-09-2008, 11:04 PM
Loderunner is lots of fun.

Hey! There's a different thread where you talk about the old games you play while you're waiting for DDO to release the module. ;)