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Kire
01-05-2008, 02:55 PM
Heya this is more of a post aimed towards teh Devs but feel free to comment.

As many of you know i have been trying to increase the power of rangers in the game for awhile now.

I would like to address the issue of rangers being unable to trip, sunder, and stun enemies. I can understand how we are unable to Sunder. Although its possible to wreck someones armor with an arrow its more likely to be able to trip them with a shot into the leg or stun them by shooting them in the temple.

Heres my compromise:

Trip - Instead of letting us trip enemies let us cripple them. Yes im aware of crippling weapons in the game. However as a ranger i want to be able to shoot an enemy in the leg. This should slow them down. Maybe add a chance to trip also?

Sunder - Let us be able to do it but with a neg *insert number here* to our rolls.

Stun - Most rangers dont have the room to take Stunning Blow. Instead make us a raid bow or a set of raid arrows that can do this. They can simply have a rock at teh end of them that when used have a chance to stun the opponent. Or have the arrows cast Stunning Blow after a succesful attack progression.

Please feel free to discuss.

~Kire

Kreaper
01-05-2008, 02:59 PM
I have been irritated with not being able to stun for quite some time. Especially since so many mob archers can stun us.

Hadrian
01-05-2008, 03:15 PM
If an arrow to the temple just stuns you, I don't want to mess with you.

Kire
01-05-2008, 03:34 PM
If an arrow to the temple just stuns you, I don't want to mess with you.

Lol thats why i said there would have to be a special bow and/or arrows for stunning.

~Kire

Shade
01-05-2008, 04:29 PM
Think your post is missing a key phase: ....With a bow.

Rangers can melee too..

And a Dwarf rangaer with 30 strength (will be quite easy to get in mod6 with rams might)
Dwarven tactics enhancement
improved trip

Can trip most monsters in the game quite reliably. Add in a vertigo 10 dwarf axe and you almost never fail. Considering some TWF attacks hit twice per swing (and similarly trip, sunder and stun twice in 1 blow) - your chances are actually better then a pure tacitcs 1handed or 2handed fighter!

Same with sunder and stun.

Kire
01-05-2008, 04:34 PM
Think your post is missing a key phase: ....With a bow.

Rangers can melee too..

And a Dwarf rangaer with 30 strength (will be quite easy to get in mod6 with rams might)
Dwarven tactics enhancement
improved trip

Can trip most monsters in the game quite reliably. Add in a vertigo 10 dwarf axe and you almost never fail. Considering some TWF attacks hit twice per swing (and similarly trip, sunder and stun twice in 1 blow) - your chances are actually better then a pure tacitcs 1handed or 2handed fighter!

Same with sunder and stun.

Uhm.. by rangers... i mean ranged combat. Those TWF rangers arent really rangers >.> jk. =P. However. a Dwarven ranger with 30 str using a bow (bow str!) should be able to put an arrow through anythings leg. 150 pound bow!

~Kire

Kire
01-05-2008, 06:29 PM
Any more opinions on this?

~Kire

Turial
01-05-2008, 07:50 PM
It would be interesting to see an enhancement line open up for rangers that have taken Stunning blow and Improved trip as well as one to cripple a target.

Stunning shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to stun the target on a successful hit. Max it out at a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take stunning blow.

Tripping Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to trip the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take improved trip.

Crippling Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to cripple the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take point blank shot.

Obviously a really rough outline of how it could be done, but it would be really interesting to see something like this.

Kire
01-05-2008, 08:41 PM
It would be interesting to see an enhancement line open up for rangers that have taken Stunning blow and Improved trip as well as one to cripple a target.

Stunning shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to stun the target on a successful hit. Max it out at a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take stunning blow.

Tripping Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to trip the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take improved trip.

Crippling Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to cripple the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take point blank shot.

Obviously a really rough outline of how it could be done, but it would be really interesting to see something like this.

Well theres a coupel problems with this:

1. Melee classes cna do it without enhancements or extra feats why can't rangers?
2. That would be a very steep cost for only 5%.
3. We need more ranger type raid items and this would be a very nice start.

~Kire

Turial
01-06-2008, 12:16 AM
Well theres a coupel problems with this:

1. Melee classes cna do it without enhancements or extra feats why can't rangers?
2. That would be a very steep cost for only 5%.
3. We need more ranger type raid items and this would be a very nice start.

~Kire

Well I think any class needs to take the feat stunning blow to do the stunning effect. In pnp I believe there are feats that allow for the effects of sunder, sunning blow, trip, crippling, and etc to work off of ranged. Part of the reason for it being more expensive is because I made it a % chance rather then a DC based ability. This means that in an average many shot which will hit 4 targets it is very likely that the effect with affect one or more of them. In the case of a stunning blow that creature will not survive the attack.

Out of the major melee crowd control abilities to port over to ranged attacks the only one that would be really nice on a raid bow would be the stunning blow due to the damage potential. Crippling is pretty common and tripping while it would be useful lacks a particular type of flair to it.

I'm all for some sort of way for these things to work on ranged attacks. I just don't know a good way to do it and that was a sloppy attempt.

Kire
01-06-2008, 11:43 AM
Well I think any class needs to take the feat stunning blow to do the stunning effect. In pnp I believe there are feats that allow for the effects of sunder, sunning blow, trip, crippling, and etc to work off of ranged. Part of the reason for it being more expensive is because I made it a % chance rather then a DC based ability. This means that in an average many shot which will hit 4 targets it is very likely that the effect with affect one or more of them. In the case of a stunning blow that creature will not survive the attack.

Out of the major melee crowd control abilities to port over to ranged attacks the only one that would be really nice on a raid bow would be the stunning blow due to the damage potential. Crippling is pretty common and tripping while it would be useful lacks a particular type of flair to it.

I'm all for some sort of way for these things to work on ranged attacks. I just don't know a good way to do it and that was a sloppy attempt.

Hah its ok. Wasn't Flaming ya bud. I think trip could be transfered over to ranged just how it is but with a chance to cripple with a line of enhancements. As for sunder that wouldn't really be as useful. Stunning blow and trip are almost the same, as they both stop an opponent from moving. Maybe make it so you had to have the feat stunning blow and when you use it theres a chance to sunder with a line of enhancements?

~Kire

Kire
01-06-2008, 05:13 PM
Cmon this needs more Responses to catch the devs attention!

~Kire

Arnya
01-06-2008, 06:16 PM
I have a 6rog/6rgr with 16 Strength.

My trip and sunder goes off ALL THE TIME.

I comment and people don't believe me, so I show them.

All my melee characters have sunder on F3 and trip on F4, and are the first things I hit entering melee and every 10 seconds after.

I don't have a problem with trip or sunder, they work just fine :)

Kire
01-06-2008, 07:01 PM
I have a 6rog/6rgr with 16 Strength.

My trip and sunder goes off ALL THE TIME.

I comment and people don't believe me, so I show them.

All my melee characters have sunder on F3 and trip on F4, and are the first things I hit entering melee and every 10 seconds after.

I don't have a problem with trip or sunder, they work just fine :)

Talking about trip and Sunder with ranged weapons... lol. thanks for the bump though =)

~Kire

Aesop
01-06-2008, 07:17 PM
They should add in Disarm that gives a 25% penalty to melee damage on a failed save (or whatever it is) and implement these

Ranged Disarm- Disarm an opponent at range (duh)
prerequisites are Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as well as a 15+Dex and a BAB of +5


Ranged Pin- causes an opponent to be stuck in place
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm

Ranged Sunder- sunder at range (duh)
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm + Ranged Pin


these are out of the Complete Warrior

Ranged Pin would be awesome for soloists

for Stunning effect they should create sap arrows (dang it can't remember what they are really called) that are Bludgeoning and have a % chance to stun... like Weighted but since they can't be used with Stunning Blow they should up the percents a little and remove the bonus to Stunning Blow... these arrows could be a damage die down even.

Tripping... I think the Ranged Pin thing would replace it really ... but I can't recall anything that would really mimic that for ranged combat in DnD

Aesop

Talish
01-06-2008, 07:19 PM
Interesting idea. Rangers already get standard trip like a fighter. Now for a fighter to get improved trip they need combat expertise to become an expert in combat maneuvers and improved trip as well as 13 points in INT. That's 2 feats plus a stat requirment.

What prereq would you consider for ranged trip.. just spending 1 feat doesn't seem fair enough.

Note: my main is a ranger.

Aesop
01-06-2008, 07:21 PM
Interesting idea. Rangers already get standard trip like a fighter. Now for a fighter to get improved trip they need combat expertise to become an expert in combat maneuvers and improved trip as well as 13 points in INT. That's 2 feats plus a stat requirment.

What prereq would you consider for ranged trip.. just spending 1 feat doesn't seem fair enough.

Note: my main is a ranger.

Probably something like what I mention above PBS and PS

Aesop

Talish
01-06-2008, 07:24 PM
Probably something like what I mention above PBS and PS

Aesop

Ya I saw that after I posted. :) I must have been writing my post when you posted yours. Thanks for the info though I'm going to go look those up.

bigj1608
01-06-2008, 07:31 PM
ranged stun: paralyzing bow

ranged sunder: destruction bow

ranged trip: destruction bow + paralyzing bow (-4 ac, same as trip, and cant move except on a save every couple secs, same as trip)

add in crippling and wow.. problem solved

lets not change things.. that is how problems start and a game gets ruined..

if you dont want your ranger to have str but you want him to trip/sunder/stun, then you are out of luck.. my retired elf ranger had 24 str and 34 dex.. used stunning blow and trip all the time. worked great, and with an offhand vertigo/weighted weapon, you easily make over a 20 DC on both

Aesop
01-06-2008, 07:34 PM
ranged stun: paralyzing bow

ranged sunder: destruction bow

ranged trip: destruction bow + paralyzing bow (-4 ac, same as trip, and cant move except on a save every couple secs, same as trip)

add in crippling and wow.. problem solved

lets not change things.. that is how problems start and a game gets ruined..

if you dont want your ranger to have str but you want him to trip/sunder/stun, then you are out of luck.. my retired elf ranger had 24 str and 34 dex.. used stunning blow and trip all the time. worked great, and with an offhand vertigo/weighted weapon, you easily make over a 20 DC on both



um... no. Why even say this? Adding more feat and different abilities into the game only makes it more diverse and interesting. Melee still have Paralyzing weapons and Destruction Weapons but many still use the abilities as well... this is just more ways to make the game interesting for people. Its not like saying "let's make it so melee can't stun or trip and that you have to use a ranged weapon to do so"

Aesop

Kire
01-06-2008, 07:49 PM
ranged stun: paralyzing bow

ranged sunder: destruction bow

ranged trip: destruction bow + paralyzing bow (-4 ac, same as trip, and cant move except on a save every couple secs, same as trip)

add in crippling and wow.. problem solved

lets not change things.. that is how problems start and a game gets ruined..

if you dont want your ranger to have str but you want him to trip/sunder/stun, then you are out of luck.. my retired elf ranger had 24 str and 34 dex.. used stunning blow and trip all the time. worked great, and with an offhand vertigo/weighted weapon, you easily make over a 20 DC on both

Sorry i am thinking of the non leet players. Not everyone has all these weapons.

Its not changing things. Its adding to the things a ranged combatant can do. Why cant i load a blunted arrow and shoot at monsters heads hoping to stun them? Why can't i shoot at mobs legs hoping they either fall over in pain or move with less speed? Why can't i aim at vulnerable parts of an opponents armor hoping all their armor will come crashing down?

For some reason ive gotten quite a few posts in here about how their rangers can trip and sunder fine with melee weapons
Let me clarify: we are talking about bows.

~Kire

Kire
01-06-2008, 07:51 PM
They should add in Disarm that gives a 25% penalty to melee damage on a failed save (or whatever it is) and implement these

Ranged Disarm- Disarm an opponent at range (duh)
prerequisites are Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as well as a 15+Dex and a BAB of +5


Ranged Pin- causes an opponent to be stuck in place
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm

Ranged Sunder- sunder at range (duh)
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm + Ranged Pin


these are out of the Complete Warrior

Ranged Pin would be awesome for soloists

for Stunning effect they should create sap arrows (dang it can't remember what they are really called) that are Bludgeoning and have a % chance to stun... like Weighted but since they can't be used with Stunning Blow they should up the percents a little and remove the bonus to Stunning Blow... these arrows could be a damage die down even.

Tripping... I think the Ranged Pin thing would replace it really ... but I can't recall anything that would really mimic that for ranged combat in DnD

Aesop

Maybe add these as more ways to disable opponents at range?

Rangers already get the Trip and Sunder feat so i think we should be able to apply it to a ranged item. As for stunning blow we would have to spend feats to get it just as a tank does.

Maybe make enhancments (or feats) to increase the DCs for these effects?

~Kire

Aesop
01-06-2008, 07:57 PM
Maybe add these as more ways to disable opponents at range?

Rangers already get the Trip and Sunder feat so i think we should be able to apply it to a ranged item. As for stunning blow we would have to spend feats to get it just as a tank does.

Maybe make enhancments (or feats) to increase the DCs for these effects?

~Kire

well really the only reason I bring thee up is because this is what is in PnP. In PnP anyone can attempt to trip or sunder but could soak up AoO when doing so... just like anyone can grapple. with ranged weapons however they normally can't without a special feat or class ability.

really I wish they would make most Enhancements generic non class specific and instead make them based on Feats and Skills taken and class features and whatnot

then even a fighter could take ranged disarm or what ever and the enhancements to go with it. As it stands it has gotten better from the old Enhancement system but we are still put into a box and have to struggle to move out of it

Aesop

Kire
01-06-2008, 08:00 PM
well really the only reason I bring thee up is because this is what is in PnP. In PnP anyone can attempt to trip or sunder but could soak up AoO when doing so... just like anyone can grapple. with ranged weapons however they normally can't without a special feat or class ability.

really I wish they would make most Enhancements generic non class specific and instead make them based on Feats and Skills taken and class features and whatnot

then even a fighter could take ranged disarm or what ever and the enhancements to go with it. As it stands it has gotten better from the old Enhancement system but we are still put into a box and have to struggle to move out of it

Aesop

Don't get me wrong, i would love disarm. Shoot a mob and suddenly their huge greatsword is gone and their punching. Coding should just be a simple IF statement.


If
usr.state = Disarmed
Usr.Weapon loc = Inventory

Heh but devs please dont use my coding. its messy and more then likey wrong.

~Kire

Kire
01-07-2008, 06:58 PM
Dev Response perhaps?

~Kire

Kerr
01-07-2008, 08:00 PM
Don't get me wrong, i would love disarm. Shoot a mob and suddenly their huge greatsword is gone and their punching. Coding should just be a simple IF statement.


If
usr.state = Disarmed
Usr.Weapon loc = Inventory

Heh but devs please dont use my coding. its messy and more then likey wrong.

~Kire

Well I do know this, that mobs have no inventory. They don't carry armor, weapons, anything. What you see is just skin applied to the mob, and numbers applying to their attacks.

salmag
01-07-2008, 08:02 PM
Look, I agree with the OP and Aesop gives good examples, but what I really want is MANYSHOT fixed. Then I would be happy.:D Really, its been applied wrong from the beginning, and should be made a toggle to coincide with PnP rules. Fix it and get rid of that stupid 120 second cooldown timer. Devs, you are making Improved Precise Shot a toggle; Why not fix MANYSHOT also?

Josh
01-08-2008, 08:47 AM
The question I'd like to have answered is why do NPC's only have to make a balance check when we trip them, while we have to make stat checks?

llevenbaxx
01-08-2008, 09:36 AM
The question I'd like to have answered is why do NPC's only have to make a balance check when we trip them, while we have to make stat checks?

I wonder if mobs even have stats like player characters do.

I wouldnt mind there being option for ranged trip and sunder, think its actually a good idea. They will never really be as good as the melee version due to the way ranged mechanics work(can miss with no roll etc.). That imo would make them even out with the whole not in danger part.

They seem to want ranged rangers to be a support combat character imo(or at least not DPS), these feats would work well with that in mind.

Kire
01-08-2008, 04:36 PM
I wonder if mobs even have stats like player characters do.


Yes they do cuz you can weaken/wound/maladroit mobs.

~Kire

Kire
01-08-2008, 04:37 PM
Well I do know this, that mobs have no inventory. They don't carry armor, weapons, anything. What you see is just skin applied to the mob, and numbers applying to their attacks.

Well that little bit of crappo code is for actual players. For monsters just maybe have the damage scaled down to fists and have a new icon where they have no weapon.

~Kire

Tyrande
01-08-2008, 04:49 PM
Heya this is more of a post aimed towards teh Devs but feel free to comment.
...
Trip - Instead of letting us trip enemies let us cripple them. Yes im aware of crippling weapons in the game. However as a ranger i want to be able to shoot an enemy in the leg. This should slow them down. Maybe add a chance to trip also?

Sunder - Let us be able to do it but with a neg *insert number here* to our rolls.

Stun - Most rangers dont have the room to take Stunning Blow. Instead make us a raid bow or a set of raid arrows that can do this. They can simply have a rock at teh end of them that when used have a chance to stun the opponent. Or have the arrows cast Stunning Blow after a succesful attack progression.
...

~Kire

Stunning with a bow - use a paralyzing bow or you'll have to wait until crafting is implemented for crafting "stunning arrows".

Trip with a bow - Wait until module 6 and take the feat "Crippling Strike" with a L10 rogue multi-class?

Sunder with a bow- Aren't there bows of destruction?

Mad_Bombardier
01-08-2008, 06:26 PM
Stunning with a bow - use a paralyzing bow or you'll have to wait until crafting is implemented for crafting "stunning arrows".

Trip with a bow - Wait until module 6 and take the feat "Crippling Strike" with a L10 rogue multi-class?

Sunder with a bow- Aren't there bows of destruction?Yes, we can Paralyze (daze status in DDO). But, Stunning Blow provides for autocrits. And with the combat feat, you don't have to change bows to do it.

Nope, Crippling Strike is STR damage, not a Cripple or Trip. Yes, you can use a Crippling of Slowburst bow to mimic Hamstring, but neither trip the target. And with the combat feat, you don't have to change bows to do it.

Sunder. Again, yes you can use a Destruction bow. But, Destruction and Sunder stack for a total -8 penalty to AC. And with the combat feat, you don't have to change bows to do it.

I thought Deepwood Sniper would be a good platform for ranged combat feats. But, alas, it's being implemented as DPS, DPS, and more DPS.

Kire
01-09-2008, 10:22 AM
Stunning with a bow - use a paralyzing bow or you'll have to wait until crafting is implemented for crafting "stunning arrows".

Trip with a bow - Wait until module 6 and take the feat "Crippling Strike" with a L10 rogue multi-class?

Sunder with a bow- Aren't there bows of destruction?

We should be able to use these effects with any bow just like melee can do these with any weapon.

~Kire

Kire
01-09-2008, 02:31 PM
Hm what if they added new feats for this? like Ranged Trip and Ranged Sunder?

~Kire

Mercules
01-09-2008, 03:33 PM
As many of you know i have been trying to increase the power of rangers in the game for awhile now.


This pretty much negated a lot of what you are asking for. Rangers are already fairly versatile in the game and that gives them a great deal of power. Now, your focus that Rangers are ranged characters is what is the issue. Fighters can be better at ranged combat than a Ranger and any character that focuses on ranged combat has the same issues as you describe. Rangers have no issue tripping and so forth, ranged based characters do.

Moving on from that it should likely be a series of feats and/or enhancements and several have been mentioned in the thread. These should be available to numerous classes or everyone. It should affect thrown and projectile weapons. It should not work with Manyshot although Improved Precise Shot is debatable. Probably not as you can't toss out a Sundering Cleave.

Aesop
01-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Moving on from that it should likely be a series of feats and/or enhancements and several have been mentioned in the thread. These should be available to numerous classes or everyone. It should affect thrown and projectile weapons. It should not work with Manyshot although Improved Precise Shot is debatable. Probably not as you can't toss out a Sundering Cleave.

Yeah the Improved Precise shot mechanic does make this a touch trickier. I did post a few of the feats that do exist in WotC material. There may be more but I can't recall right now. Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin and Ranged Sunder... they are on the previous page. I figured these would be single shots that bypassed the improved precise shot merchanic and only hit one target myself... becuase how else would you pin a target to the ground if the arrow keeps going. I could almost see letting the other two work with IPS ... but that would probably be ... unbalancing (a little ;) )

short review

Pin: holds target inplace sorta like Web does for a short duration or until save is made
Sunder: just like regular saunder only with a ranged weapon
Disarm: -10-25% (not sure how much would be reasonable) damage for a short duration or until save is made

I suggested these because they exist in the WotC material.

I also made the suggestion of the blunt (bludgeoning damage)arrows (who'd name I stll cannot recall.... damn sleep deprivation) that could have a percent chance to stun a target while doing slightly less damage per shot... though this would need a little work I'm thinking

Aesop

Kire
01-09-2008, 08:08 PM
I also made the suggestion of the blunt (bludgeoning damage)arrows (who'd name I stll cannot recall.... damn sleep deprivation) that could have a percent chance to stun a target while doing slightly less damage per shot... though this would need a little work I'm thinking

Aesop

Ok call me a whiner :D

But i think stun (ranged) should be available via feats for every class just like stunning blow. Although a raid item that has a chance to stun (tenderizer?) with ranged would be nice.

I think my main problem is that i think every class should be able to play many different roles yet all those roles be equal and needed in the party. A straight damage ranger (using ranged) is not wanted in quests because a twf ranger or a barb or a fighter can deal out better DPS.


This pretty much negated a lot of what you are asking for. Rangers are already fairly versatile in the game and that gives them a great deal of power. Now, your focus that Rangers are ranged characters is what is the issue. Fighters can be better at ranged combat than a Ranger and any character that focuses on ranged combat has the same issues as you describe. Rangers have no issue tripping and so forth, ranged based characters do.

Moving on from that it should likely be a series of feats and/or enhancements and several have been mentioned in the thread. These should be available to numerous classes or everyone. It should affect thrown and projectile weapons. It should not work with Manyshot although Improved Precise Shot is debatable. Probably not as you can't toss out a Sundering Cleave.

I think it should work with many shot but with descending DCs (simply put : 20 dc for first shot 18 for second shot 15 for third and 12 for fourth. these numbers would change of course)

It shouldnt work with IPS. Simple coding (though probably wrong depending on how they do it):


If
usr.attack = stun
usr.IPS = off

Though they probably use much different Vars.

That would take care of it. For the Descending DCs they could prolly use the same code they use for the ascending attack bonus and just place an if statement in for what attack they are using:


If
usr.attack = stun
usr.skill = manyshot
usr.attackbonus =-1
thats all i got. Im not sure how they have each arrow coded in. Probably couldnt do the code even if i had this section of it.

DISCLAIMER : they do not use my coding and i hope (for all of DDO's sake :D) they never do.


Ok you said fighters can be better at ranged then rangers. doesnt that seem wrong to you at all? While ranger's are versatile what if i want my ranger to just be good at one thing and i want to be extremely good at it. For TWF rangers they have a whole set of feats for it. Ranged rangers have nothing to increase our damage, attacks per round, or give use + to hit when using a ranged weapon (except weapon focus). Doesn't that seem odd to you?

~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-09-2008, 08:37 PM
You can't do these things in DDO because you can't do them in D&D:


Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

...

Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.


Sunder

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding...

Now... arguably, you shouldn't be able to Stunning "Blow" either, since D&D only has Stunning Fist. And personally, I'd love for them to fix that. It's part of what keeps Stunning Fist from being too overpowered.


Stunning Fist [General]

Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally...

Mercules
01-10-2008, 07:25 AM
Ok you said fighters can be better at ranged then rangers. doesnt that seem wrong to you at all? While ranger's are versatile what if i want my ranger to just be good at one thing and i want to be extremely good at it. For TWF rangers they have a whole set of feats for it. Ranged rangers have nothing to increase our damage, attacks per round, or give use + to hit when using a ranged weapon (except weapon focus). Doesn't that seem odd to you?

~Kire

No, it doesn't seem wrong that a class focussed specifically on fighting is better at -FIGHTING- than a class focussed on survival in the wilderness, dealing with animals, and fighting. If you want to be good at one thing and be extremely good at it you shouldn't pick a class that is so diversified.

Ranged rangers get Bow Strength to increase damage, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and Improved Precise Shot to increase attacks per round, Precise Shot to pick the exact target you want to hit and kill. In addition you get all the TWF feats, it's your choice not to use them as well. The best Rangers I know have no problem pulling out a bow to blast down a corridor of foes or pull out two weapons to fight in melee. They do both and use all their tools including their spells and ability to heal themselves and yes, even there Animal Empathy ability.

Again you are thinking Rangers are all about bows. They are not. If you want a focussed ranged combatant you should make a Fighter and maybe splash a level of Ranger for the Bow Strength if you plan to use bows(since DDO retardedly has that feat instead of using composite bows to allow Strength as a damage modifier).

Kire
01-10-2008, 09:47 AM
No, it doesn't seem wrong that a class focussed specifically on fighting is better at -FIGHTING- than a class focussed on survival in the wilderness, dealing with animals, and fighting. If you want to be good at one thing and be extremely good at it you shouldn't pick a class that is so diversified.

Ranged rangers get Bow Strength to increase damage, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and Improved Precise Shot to increase attacks per round, Precise Shot to pick the exact target you want to hit and kill. In addition you get all the TWF feats, it's your choice not to use them as well. The best Rangers I know have no problem pulling out a bow to blast down a corridor of foes or pull out two weapons to fight in melee. They do both and use all their tools including their spells and ability to heal themselves and yes, even there Animal Empathy ability.

Again you are thinking Rangers are all about bows. They are not. If you want a focussed ranged combatant you should make a Fighter and maybe splash a level of Ranger for the Bow Strength if you plan to use bows(since DDO retardedly has that feat instead of using composite bows to allow Strength as a damage modifier).

I know rangers are not all about bows, but i want a ranged ranger. If rangers are survivalist why arent they called survivalists? (i know the answer not a serious question)

Fighters are focused on fighting yes, if you look at their class description it says nothing about ranging. it talks about twf, sword and board and two handed fighting. Now i know that people build builds with classes that are supposed to be focused on one thing but they make them completely focused on something else.


~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-10-2008, 10:09 AM
I know rangers are not all about bows, but i want a ranged ranger. If rangers are survivalist why arent they called survivalists? (i know the answer not a serious question)

The term ranger doesn't derive from the fact that they fight at range.

It derives from the fact that they range across many lands (or even just all over one land).

Edit -- Tolkien's ranger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_%28Middle-earth%29) was presumably so named because of the following:


Ranger may mean a keeper, guardian, or soldier who ranges over a region to protect the area or enforce the law ("range" meaning "travel around an area"). In Britain, the term has long been associated with a keeper of a royal forest or park.

Mercules
01-10-2008, 10:46 AM
Fighters are focused on fighting yes, if you look at their class description it says nothing about ranging. it talks about twf, sword and board and two handed fighting. Now i know that people build builds with classes that are supposed to be focused on one thing but they make them completely focused on something else.

Who's class description? Turbine's? The same people who make no mention of a Cleric's offensive divine magic? Not a good definition to go with.

Let me explain.

Level 14 Fighter gets 8 bonus feats. Just using those they can take.
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Weapon Specialization: Ranged
Improved Critical: Ranged
Many Shot
Improve Precise Shot

He can then go on to take 4 more feats.
Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged
Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged
and two others of any sort.

Ranged based Ranger has:
Bow Strength
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot

He can then go on to tkae 4 more feats.
Improved Critical: Ranged
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged.

This means that the Fighter will have a better to hit, might equal the bonus damage only coming from Specialization instead of Str bonus, has the same feats as a Ranger aside from Bow Strength which is made up by Turbine and obtainable by a splash from Ranger which replaces his level 14 bonus feat). With one splash level of Ranger to get a feat that shouldn't be Ranger only he can exceed Ranger damage with a bow fairly easily.

Mad_Bombardier
01-10-2008, 10:51 AM
You can't do these things in DDO because you can't do them in D&D:How about Hamstring then? Gnoll archers do it to us.

Kire
01-10-2008, 10:53 AM
The term ranger doesn't derive from the fact that they fight at range.

It derives from the fact that they range across many lands (or even just all over one land).

Edit -- Tolkien's ranger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_%28Middle-earth%29) was presumably so named because of the following:

Didn't know that :). haha learn new things everyday.

~Kire

Mercules
01-10-2008, 10:53 AM
How about Hamstring then? Gnoll archers do it to us.

Magical bows maybe? Doesn't mean they have a feat for it.

Mad_Bombardier
01-10-2008, 10:55 AM
Magical bows maybe? Doesn't mean they have a feat for it.No, it's not a Crippling effect. If it was crippling bows, I'd be fine with it. It's Hamstring.

Kire
01-10-2008, 10:56 AM
Who's class description? Turbine's? The same people who make no mention of a Cleric's offensive divine magic? Not a good definition to go with.

Let me explain.

Level 14 Fighter gets 8 bonus feats. Just using those they can take.
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Weapon Specialization: Ranged
Improved Critical: Ranged
Many Shot
Improve Precise Shot

He can then go on to take 4 more feats.
Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged
Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged
and two others of any sort.

Ranged based Ranger has:
Bow Strength
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot

He can then go on to tkae 4 more feats.
Improved Critical: Ranged
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged.

This means that the Fighter will have a better to hit, might equal the bonus damage only coming from Specialization instead of Str bonus, has the same feats as a Ranger aside from Bow Strength which is made up by Turbine and obtainable by a splash from Ranger which replaces his level 14 bonus feat). With one splash level of Ranger to get a feat that shouldn't be Ranger only he can exceed Ranger damage with a bow fairly easily.

I was not arguing the point that fighters make better rangers. Im saying rangers should be better at ranged combat.

Hm not sure how im doing it but im getting all the feats you listed above (on my 13 ranger one fighter) under ranger and all the feats for shot on the run. Odd. I'll post the build later if you want to see how.

MysticTheurge
01-10-2008, 11:06 AM
How about Hamstring then? Gnoll archers do it to us.

Yeah, and Gnoll Clerics summon Mephits. And the demon queen has those nice moving blade barriers. ;)

And you know all those other things that they do that we don't like respawning at full health when they fall in the water or not having to make concentration checks to cast spells.

That said, I really don't see a problem with letting people (rangers and fighters perhaps) do these things via enhancements. I just don't think it makes sense to be able to do them by default (since that's not how they work in D&D).

Mercules
01-10-2008, 11:12 AM
I was not arguing the point that fighters make better rangers. Im saying rangers should be better at ranged combat.

Hm not sure how im doing it but im getting all the feats you listed above (on my 13 ranger one fighter) under ranger and all the feats for shot on the run. Odd. I'll post the build later if you want to see how.

Come Mod 6 you will get bonuses for standing still while using a Ranged weapon thus negating some of the use of Shot on the Run. It's still useful to kite some foes.

Rangers are great and powerful and do not need to be any better at ranged combat.

You keep missing my point.

Rangers do not need a boost... RANGED COMBAT DOES. :D

Kire
01-10-2008, 12:09 PM
Come Mod 6 you will get bonuses for standing still while using a Ranged weapon thus negating some of the use of Shot on the Run. It's still useful to kite some foes.

Rangers are great and powerful and do not need to be any better at ranged combat.

You keep missing my point.

Rangers do not need a boost... RANGED COMBAT DOES. :D

Well this would be a boost to ranged combat. It can be available for everyone. I could care less.

Shot on the Run is extremely useful still. Even though i wish they would let you keep your attack progression if you had it like melee's can with spring attack.

~Kire

Mercules
01-10-2008, 12:30 PM
Well this would be a boost to ranged combat. It can be available for everyone. I could care less.

Shot on the Run is extremely useful still. Even though i wish they would let you keep your attack progression if you had it like melee's can with spring attack.

~Kire

Melee do not keep attack progression with Spring Attack.

Thank you for finally seeing my point, that this is not a ranger issue, but a ranged combat issue. Now that we have reached that point... I've already agreed with you that some of these should be considered but definately not with Manyshot or Improved Precise Shot as Melee can not use such feats with Cleave or Great Cleave.

Kire
01-10-2008, 12:59 PM
Melee do not keep attack progression with Spring Attack.

Thank you for finally seeing my point, that this is not a ranger issue, but a ranged combat issue. Now that we have reached that point... I've already agreed with you that some of these should be considered but definately not with Manyshot or Improved Precise Shot as Melee can not use such feats with Cleave or Great Cleave.

Spring attack does let melee keep their attack progression while moving. my brother uses it on my all the time.

I think it should be used for many shot. If you watch your arrows when you shoot with many shot they all go to the same place. If we got trip and i used it with many shot all the arrows would go to the leg.

~Kire

Mercules
01-10-2008, 01:11 PM
Spring attack does let melee keep their attack progression while moving. my brother uses it on my all the time.

I think it should be used for many shot. If you watch your arrows when you shoot with many shot they all go to the same place. If we got trip and i used it with many shot all the arrows would go to the leg.



So you get 2 or 3 chances to Trip them? Hmmmm... Does a TWFer get 2 shots when they hit the Trip button? I think they might so their might be some precedent.

Mad_Bombardier
01-10-2008, 01:17 PM
Whoops, thinking of another feat. :o

MrCow
01-10-2008, 01:27 PM
Does a TWFer get 2 shots when they hit the Trip button?

When you use the trip, sunder, and stunning blow (not sure on slicing blow/sap/hamstring as I never used them before) you will roll a trip/sunder/stunning blow for both weapons if you are on a part of your attack chain that allows two weapons. I can attest to this as I have seen on a stunning blow the save icon proceeded with the stunned graphic on one of my attacks that allowed both weapons.


Trip resets the attack chain and the first attack is a single main hand swing, so currently no.

None of these combat feats (trip, sunder, stunning blow, etc.) reset your attack chain. Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind attack, however, do as they count as your last attack (and use your highest last attack bonus making them ideal for starting off fights with effects like destruction).

Mad_Bombardier
01-10-2008, 01:38 PM
None of these combat feats (trip, sunder, stunning blow, etc.) reset your attack chain. Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind attack, however, do as they count as your last attack (and use your highest last attack bonus making them ideal for starting off fights with effects like destruction).Ack, I was thinking Cleave/Great Cleave. :o You're absolutely right! I totally forgot about swing-swing-swing, tumble to enemy, Trip w/+10 to-hit. :D

Thanks for confirming two attacks with combat feats.

Kire
01-10-2008, 01:46 PM
Well no point in quoting :p

But uhm ok im out of ideas for this so weve gotten it down to this:

1. Enhancments for just rangers OR feats for everyone.
2. Usable with Many Shot.
3. Not usuable with IPS.

Did i miss anything?

~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-10-2008, 01:59 PM
Spring attack does let melee keep their attack progression while moving. my brother uses it on my all the time.

This is incorrect.

Kire
01-10-2008, 02:45 PM
This is incorrect.

Ah ok i understand it now. SOrry ive never taken it and when i asked my bro if it did let you keep your attack progression he said yes. Now i know other wise.

~Kire

Kire
01-11-2008, 03:17 PM
Wooh had to resurect this thing.

~Kire

Ciaran
01-11-2008, 03:19 PM
Nevermind. Sorry.

Kire
01-11-2008, 03:40 PM
Nevermind. Sorry.

Lol dont worry bout it. its a free bump.

~Kire

Ciaran
01-11-2008, 03:52 PM
Lol dont worry bout it. its a free bump.

~Kire

Heh, please don't say that...I don't want to get points for "bumping". ;):D:eek:

Kire
01-11-2008, 04:18 PM
Heh, please don't say that...I don't want to get points for "bumping". ;):D:eek:

Can you get points for accidental bumping? :eek:

~Kire

Mercules
01-11-2008, 04:22 PM
Can you get points for accidental bumping? :eek:

~Kire

No, but you can for bumping your own posts. Ehem. :)

Kire
01-11-2008, 04:30 PM
No, but you can for bumping your own posts. Ehem. :)

I have no idea what you are talking about :D.

~Kire

Ciaran
01-11-2008, 04:32 PM
Can you get points for accidental bumping? :eek:

~Kire

Nope, but let's just say I'm a bit jaded about certain things. *is dodgy* :cool:

Kire
01-11-2008, 05:12 PM
Nope, but let's just say I'm a bit jaded about certain things. *is dodgy* :cool:

Haha so do you want to comment on the ranged trip and sunder issue?

~Kire

Ciaran
01-11-2008, 05:18 PM
Haha so do you want to comment on the ranged trip and sunder issue?

~Kire

Well, I was going to say that I thought Rangers got trip, but then I saw you were talking about ranged attacks.

Personally, I'd like to see Called Shot introduced and have it do different things such as stun, knockdown ('trip'), etc.

Kire
01-11-2008, 07:23 PM
Well, I was going to say that I thought Rangers got trip, but then I saw you were talking about ranged attacks.

Personally, I'd like to see Called Shot introduced and have it do different things such as stun, knockdown ('trip'), etc.

Hm anyone have a definition of Called Shot? ive seen it mentioned quite a bit but have never been able to figure out what it is.

~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-11-2008, 08:10 PM
Hm anyone have a definition of Called Shot? ive seen it mentioned quite a bit but have never been able to figure out what it is.

I can't think whether there's a 3.5 source for the concept, but in general, it's something along the lines of:

Take an attack penalty, if you still hit, you deal more damage than normal.

The theory being that you say ("call") that you're going to aim for your target's eye/groin/soft parts/throat/etc. giving you a smaller target, and thus the to hit penalty, but potentially dealing more damage.

Kire
01-11-2008, 08:12 PM
I can't think whether there's a 3.5 source for the concept, but in general, it's something along the lines of:

Take an attack penalty, if you still hit, you deal more damage than normal.

The theory being that you say ("call") that you're going to aim for your target's eye/groin/soft parts/throat/etc. giving you a smaller target, and thus the to hit penalty, but potentially dealing more damage.

Heh i asked for something like this awhile ago. Though i preferred to call it a stance where you take a minus to-hit for more damage (pretty much power attack for bows) then another stance that would increase your attack speed but lower damage and To-hit.

~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-11-2008, 08:18 PM
then another stance that would increase your attack speed but lower damage and To-hit.

That's really what Multishot should be.

Kire
01-11-2008, 08:20 PM
That's really what Multishot should be.

Multishot? do you mean manyshot?

~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-11-2008, 08:35 PM
Multishot? do you mean manyshot?

Oh yeah. That.

(D&D has altogether too many ___shots. Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot...)

;)

Kire
01-11-2008, 08:56 PM
Oh yeah. That.

(D&D has altogether too many ___shots. Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot...)

;)

Haha no problem. I thought many shot was a decreasing attack bonus per arrows your shooting?

~Kire

MysticTheurge
01-11-2008, 09:55 PM
I thought many shot was a decreasing attack bonus per arrows your shooting?

Yeah but more arrows = more attacks in the same amount of time = higher attack speed.

dragnmoon
01-11-2008, 10:03 PM
I can't think whether there's a 3.5 source for the concept, but in general, it's something along the lines of:

Take an attack penalty, if you still hit, you deal more damage than normal.

The theory being that you say ("call") that you're going to aim for your target's eye/groin/soft parts/throat/etc. giving you a smaller target, and thus the to hit penalty, but potentially dealing more damage.

I remember going from 2nd edition to 3rd.. My players just could not get it through there head that there was no called shot rules in 3rd edition... still aren't.

But I have known GMs to make their own House rules on this.

Invalid_86
01-11-2008, 10:50 PM
Rangers do not need a boost... RANGED COMBAT DOES. :D

Now that's the truth.

Kire
01-12-2008, 08:31 AM
Yeah but more arrows = more attacks in the same amount of time = higher attack speed.

Ah ok i get it now. Im a little bit of a newb when it comes too PnP :p. Yeah if they made manyshot toggleable and let us choose how many arrows, that would be a nice increase in attack speed.

~Kire

Aesop
01-13-2008, 11:35 PM
I can't think whether there's a 3.5 source for the concept, but in general, it's something along the lines of:

Take an attack penalty, if you still hit, you deal more damage than normal.

The theory being that you say ("call") that you're going to aim for your target's eye/groin/soft parts/throat/etc. giving you a smaller target, and thus the to hit penalty, but potentially dealing more damage.

I remember there is a 3.x source ... but its not wotc. I believe its in one of the Mongoose books... . Quintessential Fighter I believe. Which also had Fighting Styles and a couple of other interesting things in it... In general a bit wonky but some interesting ideas came out of that and a few other books

I believe that cerain called shots didn't infact do more damge instead they did certain effects and slightly less damage.... like

Called Shot:Leg- 50% damage -50% Enemy Movement
Called Shot: Arm- 50% damage -25% Enemy Damage
Called Shot: Head- 50% damage dazed, stunned, or penalty to hit
Called Shot: Groin- 150% damage cause there is no such thing as a light hit to the crotch :D

something like that ... though I modified the numbers cause I can't remember what they were and they probably weren't %s



Aesop