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Taojeff
01-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Please fix enemy spell casters:

1. So they no longer have infinite mana.
2. So that they also do damage equivalent to PCs of their level. You know 500 point party wiping fireballs and such.

Thanks

Oh and when you at it, fix mob hitpoints to be comparable to PCs of the same level.

Mad_Bombardier
01-01-2008, 03:11 PM
Now you're just spamming the forums. You have not one, but two active threads on the topic. There is no need for more. :(

Ghoste
01-01-2008, 03:16 PM
Coming from someone who thinks player casters are overpowered as it is, this really surprises me. What options does a barb have when fighting a 500 pt fireball hurling caster other than to run right at him as fast as he can and hope not to die on the first shot?

Casters certainly have more options.
-sneak up and get the first spell off from a comfortable location
-mass charm a group of tanks and let them take the damage
-just sneak by the caster, ignoring him altogether
-charm the caster and let those 500 pt fireballs work for you

There are probably a lot more approaches. Funny though, now the op is making suggestions that will really hurt tanks more than any other class.

Taojeff
01-01-2008, 03:18 PM
Now you're just spamming the forums. You have not one, but two active threads on the topic. There is no need for more. :(

I am not spamming the forums, this is a seperate subject.

In PnP bosses and other creatures are often comparable to player level and caliber. Why not in DDO? Makes sense to me, fair challenge.

Taojeff
01-01-2008, 03:19 PM
Coming from someone who thinks player casters are overpowered as it is, this really surprises me. What options does a barb have when fighting a 500 pt fireball hurling caster other than to run right at him as fast as he can and hope not to die on the first shot?

Casters certainly have more options.
-sneak up and get the first spell off from a comfortable location
-mass charm a group of tanks and let them take the damage
-just sneak by the caster, ignoring him altogether
-charm the caster and let those 500 pt fireballs work for you

There are probably a lot more approaches. Funny though, now the op is making suggestions that will really hurt tanks more than any other class.

My tank would go trip the caster and kill him normally (be easier too if he had player level hitpoints). I think this change would be good, a level playing field is a good challenge.

Ghoste
01-01-2008, 03:20 PM
I am not spamming the forums, this is a seperate subject.

In PnP bosses and other creatures are often comparable to player level and caliber. Why not in DDO? Makes sense to me, fair challenge.
I agree it's a different subject. To me it looks like a nerf to player tanks that the op is asking for...as well as any player casters dumb enough to run up behind the tank and get fireballed along with him...

Taojeff
01-01-2008, 03:22 PM
I agree it's a different subject. To me it looks like a nerf to player tanks that the op is asking for...as well as any player casters dumb enough to run up behind the tank and get fireballed along with him...

It is not a nerf to anyone. I is a balancing of us and the enemies.

Ghoste
01-01-2008, 03:25 PM
It is not a nerf to anyone. I is a balancing of us and the enemies.
Two words for you: stealth caster

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that this balance will affect the difficulty for tanks. Casters will easily be able to adjust their play style to bring the difficulty back to how it is now.

So speaking in relative terms, tanks will get the nerf bat.

Aspenor
01-01-2008, 03:26 PM
Two words for you: stealth caster

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that this balance will affect the difficulty for tanks. Casters will easily be able to adjust their play style to bring the difficulty back to how it is now.

Enlarged spells, problem solved.

smatt
01-01-2008, 03:32 PM
I am not spamming the forums, this is a seperate subject.

In PnP bosses and other creatures are often comparable to player level and caliber. Why not in DDO? Makes sense to me, fair challenge.


Hmm, well this isn't PnP period...... It can't be, and never will be. The whole dynamic to live gaming is different than PnP. Mob hit points have to be high, that justifies all those fancy weapons the melees get etc, as well as attempts to counter thee massive power of the caster with unlimited spell casting abilites (IE unlimited mana). You have to have such things to keep the game at least mildly intersting, I mean what else is there to do after you cap toons, and have run every quest. You go for newer better equipment or constantly reroll (booooo to constant rerolling :) ).

I'm sorry but the "make it more like PnP" thing is an old and boring topic. They do their best to simulate D&D, but the fact is such a system would be completely impossible within a live game setting.

Happy New Year all!

Ghoste
01-01-2008, 03:33 PM
Enlarged spells, problem solved.
There you go, add that to the list.

Swordalot
01-01-2008, 03:34 PM
While you're at it, bring Ranger firing speed up to that of Zakya cultists, but to balance it give the cultists Manyshot.

What, it's all in the interest of balance...

Valdieron
01-01-2008, 04:26 PM
Can we also make it so there are only 6 or 7 mobs to kill in a whole dungeon.... that will make it far more exciting, rather than this boring method we have now of just Nuking a couple hundred monsters... Seriously, all that work in a 15 minute quest just isn't good for my mouse buttons!!

Come on Dev's, we pay to have fun!

MysticTheurge
01-01-2008, 05:37 PM
2. So that they also do damage equivalent to PCs of their level. You know 500 point party wiping fireballs and such.

I addressed why this is illogical and would be entirely impractical in DDO in the other thread where you already posted it.

Aspenor
01-01-2008, 05:43 PM
If they implemented this there would be no use for having a fighter in your party, ever. You'd be of no use to anybody without your own self cast 30pt resists and 140 pt protections.

Serpent
01-01-2008, 05:56 PM
Now you're just spamming the forums. You have not one, but two active threads on the topic. There is no need for more. :(

Why no need? Are forums for something different? If threads are active doesn't that mean there is actually a pertinent argument?

Auran82
01-01-2008, 05:57 PM
Lets also make characters have 1D(4,6,8,10,12) + Con modifier HP per level, including first level, enjoy questing with your Wizard with 5hp (or even worse, 2hp due to a bad roll)

And remove enhancements, reset all magical items, make haste age you one year (so after 50 or so hastes, you human fighter starts getting penalties for being too old), only allow you to do a quest once, etc etc

Though to be honest I have never seen a mob cast a 500 point fireball, worst I can remember seeing are 200 odd point disintegrates.

Ghoste
01-01-2008, 06:00 PM
make haste age you one year (so after 50 or so hastes, you human fighter starts getting penalties for being too old)
Warforged don't age, so I like this idea. :D

While we're talking about balancing the monsters in game with players, how about putting in items that give immunities to charm, trip, stunning blow, slicing blow, enervation, etc...and put all those immunities on one single item with no minimum level just like the named monsters have.

Lithic
01-01-2008, 06:16 PM
make haste age you one year (so after 50 or so hastes, you human fighter starts getting penalties for being too old), only .

Now I remember why I never bothered to get haste in my spellbook in 2.0 PnP. Man that restriction sucked hehe. Especially considering a wish aged you like 5 years or something.

Swordalot
01-01-2008, 06:19 PM
Per the online SRD, HASTE DOESN'T AGE YOU.
Yeesh. Give it up.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm

Haste

Transmutation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#transmutation)

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level): Brd 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm#thirdLevelBardSpells), Sor/Wiz 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#thirdLevelSorcererWizardS pells) Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components): V, S, M
Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime): 1 standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions)
Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range): Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets): One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration): 1 round/level
Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow): Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance): Yes (harmless)

The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) and a +1 dodge bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus) to AC and Reflex saves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex). Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus), and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.
Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slow.htm).

Lithic
01-01-2008, 06:28 PM
somethingsomethingsomething3.5somethingSRDsomethin g

Yes TODAY's haste doesnt age you. YESTERDAY's haste does.

HASTE (2nd edition AD&D) Alteration 3rd level Wizard spell Range: 60 yards Components: V, S, M Duration: 3 rounds + 1 round/level Casting Time: 3 Area of Effect: 40′ cube, 1 creature/level Saving Throw: None When this spell is cast, each affected creature functions at double its normal movemement and attack rates. A hasted creature gains a -2 initiative bonus. Thus, a creature moving at 6 and attacking once per round would move at 12 and attack twice per round. Spellcasting and spell effects are not sped up. The number of creatures that can be affected is equal to the caster’s experience level; those creatures closest to the center of effect are affected first. All affected by haste must be in the designated area of effect. Note that this spell negates the effects of a slow spell. Additionally, this spell ages the recipient by one year, because of speeding up metabolic processes. This spell is not cumulative with itself or with other similar magic. Its material component is a shaving of licorice root.

Swordalot
01-01-2008, 06:36 PM
Yes TODAY's haste doesnt age you. YESTERDAY's haste does.

Wonderful. But we live in 3.5-land, not 2.0 land. I just get annoyed when people bring up old rules constantly.

Lithic
01-01-2008, 06:40 PM
Wonderful. But we live in 3.5-land, not 2.0 land. I just get annoyed when people bring up old rules constantly.

Well I get annoyed when people come over as overly hostile in their posts :P

Swordalot
01-01-2008, 06:47 PM
Well I get annoyed when people come over as overly hostile in their posts :P

Sorry, didn't mean it toward you, just the people who *repeately* bring it up. For that, I apologize

lostinjapan
01-01-2008, 07:58 PM
In PnP bosses and other creatures are often comparable to player level and caliber. Why not in DDO? Makes sense to me, fair challenge.

In DDO, mob casters have unlimited spell points and no (or very low) concentration checks, player casters have higher damage output.

Until they fix both of the mob caster issues I'd rather they didn't increase the mob fire power to match, thank you very much.

Tanka
01-01-2008, 08:07 PM
Wonderful. But we live in 3.5-land, not 2.0 land. I just get annoyed when people bring up old rules constantly.
Me too, man. It's like people switched from 2.0 to 3.0/3.5 and never bothered to read the new spell descriptions.

samagee
01-01-2008, 09:47 PM
It would also be nice if they fixed the line of sight casting issue for the npc, or at least let us cast disentigrate around a corner.

Taojeff
01-01-2008, 11:55 PM
Two words for you: stealth caster

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that this balance will affect the difficulty for tanks. Casters will easily be able to adjust their play style to bring the difficulty back to how it is now.

So speaking in relative terms, tanks will get the nerf bat.

I am not missing your point, I just believe its not a valid one. Everyone will be effected by this. If you think that stealth casters will be able to kill everything your missing all the possibilities of enemy spell casters. And besides there is nothing saying you cannot have stealth melee, hmmm maybe you could actually have people use sap in this game.

Taojeff
01-01-2008, 11:56 PM
In DDO, mob casters have unlimited spell points and no (or very low) concentration checks, player casters have higher damage output.

Until they fix both of the mob caster issues I'd rather they didn't increase the mob fire power to match, thank you very much.

Actually, that was part of my original point. I asked them to fix hit points, unlimited mana, and have the mobs have equal dc and firepower.

Ghoste
01-02-2008, 12:08 AM
I am not missing your point, I just believe its not a valid one. Everyone will be effected by this. If you think that stealth casters will be able to kill everything your missing all the possibilities of enemy spell casters. And besides there is nothing saying you cannot have stealth melee, hmmm maybe you could actually have people use sap in this game.
Not an un-named caster in this game that a pure wizard with a stealth build can't just sneak right by. Doesn't even need to engage them. For those without stealth. Start it off with some enlarged crowd control.

Stealth melee? That will probably mean an end to pure barbs, fighters, and pallies. And even so, the melee players can't one hit kill, or do enough damage to multiple casters to keep them failing concentration checks. It wouldn't work anywhere near as well. You have obviously not run with many stealth casters, and if you have, you haven't watched them work. Your suggestion would mean nothing to them.

You said you didn't miss my point, and then the next sentence was "everyone will be effected by this" which means that you did in fact miss the point. A shadow mage who can sneak up, kill, and disappear well enough not to be pursued by survivors, will not be affected by this. It's a tactic many already use on a regular basis. The only difference between now and your suggestion is that they don't currently take 50 points of damage from a fireball from a caster who cant find them, whereas under your rules they wouldn't be taking 500 points of damage from a fireball from a caster who cant find them. Either way, they're taking no damage. A stealth tank could do some damage first, but any more than one caster in the enemy group and they're still gonna get hit.

The only way to do what you're suggesting with a tank would be to use the stealth expl...oops, you didn't hear it from me.

Ironik
01-02-2008, 04:00 AM
Actually all they need to do is give enemy spell casters a 'concentration' check to cast spells when being attacked. That'd do it for me.

*Sigh*

lostinjapan
01-02-2008, 05:07 AM
Actually, that was part of my original point. I asked them to fix hit points, unlimited mana, and have the mobs have equal dc and firepower.

I got that, and my point is they need to fix certain things *first* if they are going to fix anything.

Taojeff
01-02-2008, 06:34 AM
I got that, and my point is they need to fix certain things *first* if they are going to fix anything.

Well if they fix the hitpoints they would have to fix our damage output at the same time. The reason why many mobs have so many hit points is to keep it challenging for us. You would have to fix melee and spellcasting damage output if you lower hitpoints. Which is fine by me.

MysticTheurge
01-02-2008, 09:39 AM
The reason why many mobs have so many hit points is to keep it challenging for us. You would have to fix melee and spellcasting damage output if you lower hitpoints. Which is fine by me.

No, the reason it is like it is is to keep it entertaining for us.

If everything had fewer hit points, fights would take a few seconds, at most. Either that or you'd have to slow everything down (to fix "Melee damage output" in particular) And either way your game gets boring fast.

ArkoHighStar
01-02-2008, 10:07 AM
Actually all they need to do is give enemy spell casters a 'concentration' check to cast spells when being attacked. That'd do it for me.

*Sigh*


This was covered by a dev a while ago,while they do not get a concentration check, hitting them for a certain percentage of their hp will stop them from casting. Basically it is a mute point as casters never last long enough to go through a finite mana bar anyway. Turbine has stated that they know we will go for the casters first, and that the life expectancy of a mob caster is measured in seconds

MysticTheurge
01-02-2008, 10:09 AM
Basically it is a mute point as casters never last long enough to go through a finite mana bar anyway.

Their SPs regenerate.

MrWizard
01-02-2008, 11:00 AM
Please fix enemy spell casters:

1. So they no longer have infinite mana.
2. So that they also do damage equivalent to PCs of their level. You know 500 point party wiping fireballs and such.

Thanks

Oh and when you at it, fix mob hitpoints to be comparable to PCs of the same level.

fixed

1- FoD, flesh to stone, feeblemind.
2- Don't fod, flesh to stone or feeblemind.

in reality though, the extra mana makes up for the very very limited spell selection they have (usually only cast one or two buffs and one or two attacks)....
They already started using some meta magic upgrades last mod, wait for this mod.... gonna be ugly.

Missing_Minds
01-02-2008, 11:20 AM
Please fix enemy spell casters:

1. So they no longer have infinite mana.
2. So that they also do damage equivalent to PCs of their level. You know 500 point party wiping fireballs and such.

Thanks

Oh and when you at it, fix mob hitpoints to be comparable to PCs of the same level.


Lots of complaining out of people today it seems. Great way to start out the new year.

Add in 3. Make NPCs have concentration checks.

NOW...

lets actually take the correct steps in fixing this.

1. Change all NPC AIs to not follow just scripted tasks. Actually give them a propper AI. Remove a lot of the annoying scriptted attack patterns.

"Oh.. fire not work. use lighting more."
or
"I run now." *40 feet later* "Being chased, but one I want dead still back there. Keep running, but turn around to go back an hit one I want dead."

Now, with the AI fixed better, some of those previous desires can be done. Infinite mana?

"Emm.. not have clear shot. better move to get clear shot to save mana"
or
"Emm... can't hit at all. better find coverage from them."

It is because of this lack of intelligence that the dev's gave the caster's infinite mana. To make up for being so wasteful with spell points.

Dev's have already stated with Mod 7 they are going to be working more on the AI. So hopefully changes like this will come. In the mean time, you get to be like everyone else. A target of mobs. Aren't you lucky.

smatt
01-02-2008, 11:24 AM
If they implemented this there would be no use for having a fighter in your party, ever. You'd be of no use to anybody without your own self cast 30pt resists and 140 pt protections.
Hmm, there really isn't any reason to have a fighter in a party now :mad:Solution better quest design, mobs with awesome spell resitance and IMMUNITIES to elemental damage and or limiting of the now unlimited player caster mana :)

Missing_Minds
01-02-2008, 11:39 AM
Hmm, there really isn't any reason to have a fighter in a party now :mad:Solution better quest design, mobs with awesome spell resitance and IMMUNITIES to elemental damage and or limiting of the now unlimited player caster mana :)

You mean make mobs nothing but golems? They already have quests like that.

Taojeff
01-02-2008, 12:54 PM
Lots of complaining out of people today it seems. Great way to start out the new year.

Add in 3. Make NPCs have concentration checks.

NOW...

lets actually take the correct steps in fixing this.

1. Change all NPC AIs to not follow just scripted tasks. Actually give them a propper AI. Remove a lot of the annoying scriptted attack patterns.

"Oh.. fire not work. use lighting more."
or
"I run now." *40 feet later* "Being chased, but one I want dead still back there. Keep running, but turn around to go back an hit one I want dead."

Now, with the AI fixed better, some of those previous desires can be done. Infinite mana?

"Emm.. not have clear shot. better move to get clear shot to save mana"
or
"Emm... can't hit at all. better find coverage from them."

It is because of this lack of intelligence that the dev's gave the caster's infinite mana. To make up for being so wasteful with spell points.

Dev's have already stated with Mod 7 they are going to be working more on the AI. So hopefully changes like this will come. In the mean time, you get to be like everyone else. A target of mobs. Aren't you lucky.

Actually, from a development standpoint there are numerous reasons.

1. Its easy to keep track of infinite mana, less numbers, less server load.
2. Scripts are usually used because good AI that has low server latency is really hard to implement. Which is why Turbine licensed an AI engine for the Lord of the Rings, and has used part it in DDO. I have been asking for better AI since this game came out, and better quests with things to do other then constant fighting. The AI is improving anyway, even if its only in small steps.

MysticTheurge
01-02-2008, 01:06 PM
1. Its easy to keep track of infinite mana, less numbers, less server load.

NPCs in DDO don't have infinite SPs in the way you're describing. They have a finite pool they draw from, but that pool regenerates over time.

oronisi
01-02-2008, 02:45 PM
Please fix enemy spell casters:

1. So they no longer have infinite mana.
2. So that they also do damage equivalent to PCs of their level. You know 500 point party wiping fireballs and such.

Thanks

Oh and when you at it, fix mob hitpoints to be comparable to PCs of the same level.

You can't ask for finite spellpoints on enemy casters. First off we'd kill 99.9% of all of them before they would run out, so why have the servers calculating that for almost no reason. Second, that would make that .01% remaining so easily exploited with the shotty AI that keeps throwing spears at us when we are untouchable.

However, you could ask for more realistic cooldowns in between each spell and for recasting the same spells.

Invalid_86
01-02-2008, 02:47 PM
However, you could ask for more realistic cooldowns in between each spell and for recasting the same spells.

It's better than nothing.