PDA

View Full Version : To the Developers: Proposed Melee changes for Mod 7



Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 01:09 PM
As has been evidenced by all of the power creep since launch I think it is time to brring melee back down to scale and as such I am recommending the following.

Add in speed penalties (for movement and weapon swing) for how much weight one has on them and also add in a penalty that graduates higher depending on weight of armor.

Reduce the amount of weight all characters can carry.... 2000 lbs is obnoxious.

Remove the extra attack that all characters get at BaB 1.

Remove the increasing to hit bonus, part of the reason everything in the game is so broken is the raising of the to hit, and with power attack (since to hit really doesnt matter) the obnoxious damage able to be done by melee.

With the removal of the extra to hit and the extra attacks you can scale down mob HP and then the game will be more balanced. (If this were to happen you may then need to fix metamagics.)

Dont forget to lower the mobs to hit so that AC matters once again.

Thank you for your time.

Deriaz
12-31-2007, 01:21 PM
Wouldn't mind any of this at all, to be honest. >>;;


Reduce the amount of weight all characters can carry.... 2000 lbs is obnoxious.

Though with the weight. . . I agree full-heartedly. Lol. My main, Deriaz, can carry 6,990 pounds max. I honestly don't know when he would need to carry THAT MUCH. . . Kinda blows my mind to think, "Oh, hey, I can lift, like, two houses. Or something."

-D

Serpent
12-31-2007, 01:41 PM
Well you carry too much you do move slower.

Different armors should have a stride limit.

Weight to be carried is based on srd.

Remove the attack sure. It doesn't really help us since we swing and swing.

I think the increasing too hit should go away, it should be a minus on each additional swing. Mobs AC will have to be lowered too.

Power attack works as per srd.

As for meta magics i already told you as have others how much they can do. Solo Orchard at level 10...

AC should matter, but like PnP, AC becomes secondary at higher levels.

Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 01:47 PM
Well you carry too much you do move slower.

Different armors should have a stride limit.

Weight to be carried is based on srd.

Remove the attack sure. It doesn't really help us since we swing and swing.

I think the increasing too hit should go away, it should be a minus on each additional swing. Mobs AC will have to be lowered too.

Power attack works as per srd.

As for meta magics i already told you as have others how much they can do. Solo Orchard at level 10...

AC should matter, but like PnP, AC becomes secondary at higher levels.

Doesnt coin have weight in the SRD??? I did not notice in the SRD where all the bonuses to Power Attack are, can you give me a page number or even an online link to it?

MrCow
12-31-2007, 01:51 PM
I did not notice in the SRD where all the bonuses to Power Attack are, can you give me a page number or even an online link to it?

Here ya go, straight from the online SRD.


Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Str 13.

Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

If I recall, Power Attack as fixed sometime around Mod 4.2 to be inline with the above description.

Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 02:05 PM
Here ya go, straight from the online SRD.



If I recall, Power Attack as fixed sometime around Mod 4.2 to be inline with the above description.


which in P&P is balanced because of the decreasing to hit. in DDO it is not, as fighters end up having a difference of almost 30 points to where they should be.....

but you are right, of course, hmm maybe ddo needs to figure out a way for melee, to "call" the number of points they are giving up...

Xaxx
12-31-2007, 02:08 PM
as also posted in the metimagic thread

Devs please note a change i would also like to propose for mod 7

Item plus levels should be doubled from every 2 levels to every 4 levels

so a +1 at lev 1
a +2 at lev 4
a +3 at lev 8
a +4 at lev 12
and a +5 at lev 16

this would help to bring the overpowered mele weaponry back into pnp standards where if you have a +3 flaming longsword your doing quite well

Galapas
12-31-2007, 02:13 PM
I think that the bright colors of mid-level gear should be nerfed. They should be yellow, grey and brown, like the low level stuff. You should never see a hint of red or blue until you are 12th level.

Kerr
12-31-2007, 02:39 PM
Doesnt coin have weight in the SRD??? I did not notice in the SRD where all the bonuses to Power Attack are, can you give me a page number or even an online link to it?

10 gp weighs 1 lb if I remember correctly. But they can NOT apply coin weight to us until they allow us to put coins in the bank or convert it to gems or other easily carried forms of money.

honkuimushi
12-31-2007, 03:57 PM
I think one of the reasons we can carry so much is the loot system. In most quests we get at least 4 chests. Some have much more, and in quest chains you may loot 10 or 20 chests before you get a chance to sell. If you pick up a couple suits of armor and a tower shield or, the standard encumberance rules start to seem a bit restrictive. Strength based characters have no probelms, but that 8th strength halfling sorcerer has to choose between moving and the money they could get from selling the heavy stuff. I don't see how the current encumberance rules are a factor in game enjoyment, I do think changing them would definately have a negative effect on many peoples' enjoyment of the game. If you change encumberence, you really have to change the loot system.

EinarMal
12-31-2007, 06:27 PM
as also posted in the metimagic thread

Devs please note a change i would also like to propose for mod 7

Item plus levels should be doubled from every 2 levels to every 4 levels

so a +1 at lev 1
a +2 at lev 4
a +3 at lev 8
a +4 at lev 12
and a +5 at lev 16

this would help to bring the overpowered mele weaponry back into pnp standards where if you have a +3 flaming longsword your doing quite well

Sure and while your at it get rid of those silly spell crit weapons that don't even EXIST in PnP as well! Should also probably dump those enhancements as well....and change metamagics so they are properly calculating spell level so you can't maximize and empower a level 9 spell.

I am all for re-doing everything but you have to blow it all up not just melee....and it is not likely to happen given the tiny dev staff on this game and the lack of content.

smatt
12-31-2007, 06:34 PM
See, even though casters this includes well built offensive clerics, are by far the most powerful, soloable classes out there. They still want MORE power over the poor slobs that mop the floors and do the dishes :) Oh darned I forgot the trash man was coming today and I forgot to put out the trash again....... Mr. Caster please forgive me.... ;)

EinarMal
12-31-2007, 06:35 PM
Yeah and the more I think of it other changes for spell casters to even things out (after your melee changes)

1. Switch back to spell slot system of spells per day.

2. Get rid of spell point pots

3. No recalling for mana or shrines

Well those are a few more changes that will need to be made as well.

EinarMal
12-31-2007, 06:39 PM
I mean seriously you can cast 100's of spells in one dungeon with shrines, spell points, DV's, mana pots, and you are complaining that melee differs from PnP and that is the problem of power creep in the game are you serious?

saber7
12-31-2007, 06:48 PM
I agree with all of the ideas presented in the first post. You finally found a middle ground so people can stop saying casters should be brought down and the fighters lifted up in visa versa. You also solve mob hit points :). Great Job!
Sorry EinarMal but I have to disagree with your idea about the spell pots. You have hit point pots and can regain your greatest asset (hitpoints) so why can't a caster recover their greatest asset(spellpoints). I also can't see a viable way to change to the spells per day and getting rid a shrines would ruin the game forcing people to be unable to complete most quests or away from casters period.

EinarMal
12-31-2007, 06:56 PM
I agree with all of the ideas presented in the first post. You finally found a middle ground so people can stop saying casters should be brought down and the fighters lifted up in visa versa. You also solve mob hit points :). Great Job!
Sorry EinarMal but I have to disagree with your idea about the spell pots. You have hit point pots and can regain your greatest asset (hitpoints) so why can't a caster recover their greatest asset(spellpoints). I also can't see a viable way to change to the spells per day and getting rid a shrines would ruin the game forcing people to be unable to complete most quests or away from casters period.

Well the OP seems concerned at how the rules for melee have been modifed so I am just pointing out all of the other things that have also been modifed from 3.5 so you don't leave anything out when re-making the game.

1. Spell point pots don't exist in PnP so they are out.
2. No shrines in PnP so they are out
3. No spell points in PnP so they are out.

Believe me if they lower melee below where they are now with casters ruining the game and killing it will be exactly what happens.

EinarMal
12-31-2007, 07:01 PM
I would have perfered this game stick much closer to the rules from the start and many of the things you suggest OP would do that. However, that ship has long sailed. The whole melee combat system is very messed up, you don't attack faster as you should with increasing BAB which you failed to mention. That is part of the reason for the increase in to hit. If you consider the time it takes for a sorc to cast a spell it is much shorter than a melee can complete an attack sequence. The bottom line is you would need a MASSIVE overhaul and re-balancing at this point to do what you are saying and casters would also have to change DRAMATICALLY.

It takes them months to put out one module and half a year to raise the cap. When are they going to do all this stuff?

saber7
12-31-2007, 07:02 PM
Though these things don't exist in DnD they are much more viable in a computer game and much more easy to manage. After reading your post however it does make a bit more sense and perhaps I jumped the gun in dening your ideas. Thats not to say I agree but I understand your concept.

Aspenor
12-31-2007, 07:05 PM
I'm not quite sure what EinarMarl is talking about, either.

There are spell points variant rules for 3.5.

DDO is not the same as 3.5, however, and has its own set of rules adapted for a realtime MMO.

EinarMal
12-31-2007, 07:05 PM
Though these things don't exist in DnD they are much more viable in a computer game and much more easy to manage. After reading your post however it does make a bit more sense and perhaps I jumped the gun in dening your ideas. Thats not to say I agree but I understand your concept.

I am just saying all this caster vs. melee stuff is tiresome especially when you start arguing from a PnP perspective and so many things have changed. You can't just look at one side of it, and I just don't see how they completely re-vamp the combat engine and BAB system (which should be done), completely re-vamp the meta-magic system (which should be done), completely re-balance all the mobs and quests from 1-X and manage to avoid killing the game with a lack of new content.

EinarMal
12-31-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm not quite sure what EinarMarl is talking about, either.

There are spell points variant rules for 3.5.

DDO is not the same as 3.5, however, and has its own set of rules adapted for a realtime MMO.

Even with spell points (which is a variant rule set core book?) there are still a lot of things that vary greatly from PnP. If you are going to point out the things about melee combat that differ then show the other side, like meta-magic stacking to epic spell levels, shrines, re-calling for mana and other things that differ as well.

sirgog
12-31-2007, 07:25 PM
As has been evidenced by all of the power creep since launch I think it is time to brring melee back down to scale .....

Find this hard to believe. IMO Melee classes need a HUGE boost to be even close to the power level of casters now (or even the power level of casters pre Mod 5.)

Swordalot
12-31-2007, 07:35 PM
Find this hard to believe. IMO Melee classes need a HUGE boost to be even close to the power level of casters now (or even the power level of casters pre Mod 5.)

Uh... the OP is mocking the metamagic rebalancing thread* by proposing things that would cripple melee.
Just FYI.

*This thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=131244

sirgog
12-31-2007, 07:41 PM
Uh... the OP is mocking the metamagic rebalancing thread* by proposing things that would cripple melee.
Just FYI.

*This thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=131244

Lol ok, thought this was serious and that the OP needed their head examined.

It's funny now that I know I was wrong.

Kromize
12-31-2007, 07:53 PM
As has been evidenced by all of the power creep since launch I think it is time to brring melee back down to scale and as such I am recommending the following.

Add in speed penalties (for movement and weapon swing) for how much weight one has on them and also add in a penalty that graduates higher depending on weight of armor.

Reduce the amount of weight all characters can carry.... 2000 lbs is obnoxious.

Remove the extra attack that all characters get at BaB 1.

Remove the increasing to hit bonus, part of the reason everything in the game is so broken is the raising of the to hit, and with power attack (since to hit really doesnt matter) the obnoxious damage able to be done by melee.

With the removal of the extra to hit and the extra attacks you can scale down mob HP and then the game will be more balanced. (If this were to happen you may then need to fix metamagics.)

Dont forget to lower the mobs to hit so that AC matters once again.

Thank you for your time.

I hope your joking. If anything, the metamagics need to be extremely nerfed, and melee extremely increased, put the alacrity back in, give melee a 5th attack(with sword and board) at lvl 12, and fix the attack progression and make it faster. I've tested it myself, I can(following theyre idiotic combo as sword and board) go throug hthe combo twice(8 attacks), accurately, in about 2.5 seconds. seriosuly...

Emili
12-31-2007, 09:26 PM
LOL, they are nerfing melee, they have been all along these past 3-4 mods and in the next mod... via adding a 5th attack to slow them down ie.) 96 swings at 4 attacks a min to 80 swings at 5 attacks a min - is the result. To be serious within the past two years - melee took more nerfing (or right sizing) as some would say than all the other classes combined. On the same note they've been slowly building up the other classes versitility to the point where melee is quite an inefficient way to reach the end goals of a quest. This coming level cap , I see no efficiency in bringing a melee class on a quest except to have a 5th or 6th player or because someone wishes to play a melee... the other classes bring more versitility and efficiency to the group. Caster powers are easy buttons now, while the ole swing sequences of melee may be an everlasting source of dps it is a slow tedious and wasteful way to get the job done.

Serpent
12-31-2007, 10:05 PM
Uh... the OP is mocking the metamagic rebalancing thread* by proposing things that would cripple melee.
Just FYI.

*This thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=131244

Actually the OP halfway believes what he proposes. If Casters get balanced he firmly believes that melee needs to be as well.

Invalid_86
12-31-2007, 10:28 PM
I don't care if Cow was kidding or not, he's making valid points.

Emili
12-31-2007, 10:47 PM
I don't care if Cow was kidding or not, he's making valid points.

Oh, to what extent? Really what he proposes is a full revamp of the game to be in-line with PnP... this would and should include every class not only melee... so he left out a total of 75% of what else would need to be done - ie.) the other classes.

Let me elaborate on something here... via my playing the past two days.

A friend of mine has a fighter... he wished to lvl it to 11 and via the giant hold ruins outdoor explorer and encounters... was late two nights ago and he and I set off, he on his 10th lvl fighter and I on my lvl 11 barbarian... well as you may guess it was a slow and tedious haul and did equate to some minor set-backs... and it was getting late - an hour total in GH ruins and a slow going so we both went to bed.

Last night ... I see he's still at it. I hop on my 14th level wizard and go help... took all of 30 minutes... the power of magic in the game is 10 fold of what is even possible in melee... that is how it is... magic has better CC, better DPS, better defenses, better versitility. A well played caster will play rings around a well played melee... it is how it is. If players do not see that in this game well then they need to step back and see how they are playing.;-) The mob nomore reflect how powerful the melee character is than it does the sorc, wizard or cleric.

Invalid_86
12-31-2007, 10:54 PM
Oh, to what extent? Really what he proposes is a full revamp of the game to be in-line with PnP... this would and should include every class not only melee... so he left out a total of 75% of what else would need to be done - ie.) the other classes.

Let me elaborate on something here... via my playing the past two days.

A friend of mine has a fighter... he wished to lvl it to 11 and via the giant hold ruins outdoor explorer and encounters... was late two nights ago and he and I set off, he on his 10th lvl fighter and I on my lvl 11 barbarian... well as you may guess it was a slow and tedious haul and did equate to some minor set-backs... and it was getting late - an hour total in GH ruins and a slow going so we both went to bed.

Last night ... I see he's still at it. I hop on my 14th level wizard and go help... took all of 30 minutes... the power of magic in the game is 10 fold of what is even possible in melee... that is how it is... magic has better CC, better DPS, better defenses, better versitility. A well played caster will play rings around a well played melee... it is how it is. If players do not see that in this game well then they need to step back and see how they are playing.;-) The mob nomore reflect how powerful the melee character is than it does the sorc, wizard or cleric.

Who said casters didn't need paring back too?

What was being addressed was the power spiral that has haunted this game since launch, worsening as we keep having raises in the level cap. Something will eventually have to be done about it, waiting just makes it a bigger problem to tackle.

Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 11:02 PM
Well the OP seems concerned at how the rules for melee have been modifed so I am just pointing out all of the other things that have also been modifed from 3.5 so you don't leave anything out when re-making the game.

1. Spell point pots don't exist in PnP so they are out.
2. No shrines in PnP so they are out
3. No spell points in PnP so they are out.

Believe me if they lower melee below where they are now with casters ruining the game and killing it will be exactly what happens.

1. Mnemonic pots are not a problem to be honest, just how prevalent they are.

2. There is an ability to rest in P&P and the shrine "simulates" 8 hours of rest.

3. There is an SP system in P&P and if you look 4.0 will not even have the current spell slot system......

My goal is to eliminate the power creep entirely, The power creep started with melee back at the beginning, it needs to be solved there, then everything forward can be balanced (including spell casters).

Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 11:03 PM
I would have perfered this game stick much closer to the rules from the start and many of the things you suggest OP would do that. However, that ship has long sailed. The whole melee combat system is very messed up, you don't attack faster as you should with increasing BAB which you failed to mention. That is part of the reason for the increase in to hit. If you consider the time it takes for a sorc to cast a spell it is much shorter than a melee can complete an attack sequence. The bottom line is you would need a MASSIVE overhaul and re-balancing at this point to do what you are saying and casters would also have to change DRAMATICALLY.

It takes them months to put out one module and half a year to raise the cap. When are they going to do all this stuff?

DDO2????

The worst thing this game did was move away from the 6 second round....... for casters and melee.

Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 11:15 PM
Oh, to what extent? Really what he proposes is a full revamp of the game to be in-line with PnP... this would and should include every class not only melee... so he left out a total of 75% of what else would need to be done - ie.) the other classes.

Let me elaborate on something here... via my playing the past two days.

A friend of mine has a fighter... he wished to lvl it to 11 and via the giant hold ruins outdoor explorer and encounters... was late two nights ago and he and I set off, he on his 10th lvl fighter and I on my lvl 11 barbarian... well as you may guess it was a slow and tedious haul and did equate to some minor set-backs... and it was getting late - an hour total in GH ruins and a slow going so we both went to bed.

Last night ... I see he's still at it. I hop on my 14th level wizard and go help... took all of 30 minutes... the power of magic in the game is 10 fold of what is even possible in melee... that is how it is... magic has better CC, better DPS, better defenses, better versitility. A well played caster will play rings around a well played melee... it is how it is. If players do not see that in this game well then they need to step back and see how they are playing.;-) The mob nomore reflect how powerful the melee character is than it does the sorc, wizard or cleric.

I have called for game balance since mod 2 and mod 3.

The problem is not with casters (entirely) or melee (entirely).

Everybody is looking at what a 2000 spell point sorceror can do and screaming "NERF HIM". Nerf the sorceror then, and the BASE problem still remains, all of the power creep, all you have done is just nerf a sorceror (or cleric or wizard or bard).

The issues will still remain though. Combat is borked for many reasons but it all started with power creep, and that STARTED with melee. Tone down melee to where they are supposed to be, adjust the mobs to fit with where the new bar is for melee, then adjust all the rest of the classes to fit in the new system.

Look it is not difficult to understand, melee (all technically but it really only affected melee classes) were given a "free" bonus attack at BAB 1. That one extra attack though is where the entire problem started. Mobs had to be made a little tougher to compensate, so casters needed a little boost, so melee needed a boost to remain competitive, so mobs needed a boost ad infinitum, until you reach the point where you have CR 8 Mobs in level 2 (elite) quests.

All I am saying is that something stinks here, and that we will never have a solution to the problem if we cannot identify the source of the problem.

If you disagree that this is the problem then please tell me what you think the problem is...... if you are just going to come in here and flame me, well that is really just a waste of time.

Invalid_86
12-31-2007, 11:19 PM
Treat the cause, not just the symptoms!

Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 11:21 PM
Oh, to what extent? Really what he proposes is a full revamp of the game to be in-line with PnP... this would and should include every class not only melee... so he left out a total of 75% of what else would need to be done - ie.) the other classes.

Let me elaborate on something here... via my playing the past two days.

A friend of mine has a fighter... he wished to lvl it to 11 and via the giant hold ruins outdoor explorer and encounters... was late two nights ago and he and I set off, he on his 10th lvl fighter and I on my lvl 11 barbarian... well as you may guess it was a slow and tedious haul and did equate to some minor set-backs... and it was getting late - an hour total in GH ruins and a slow going so we both went to bed.

Last night ... I see he's still at it. I hop on my 14th level wizard and go help... took all of 30 minutes... the power of magic in the game is 10 fold of what is even possible in melee... that is how it is... magic has better CC, better DPS, better defenses, better versitility. A well played caster will play rings around a well played melee... it is how it is. If players do not see that in this game well then they need to step back and see how they are playing.;-) The mob nomore reflect how powerful the melee character is than it does the sorc, wizard or cleric.

This game cannot work based strictly off of P&P mechanics, they are not set up for this type of game. I have stated the beginning of the solution, not the entire solution.

I would say that your argument that magic has better CC is off also, I have seen some fighters that can throw the CC down with a passion. They just have to be built to CC (kinda like how casters have to be built to do CC to be Good at it).

To be quite honest the whole system needs a nerf just to get us back to where we should be, but how does one set the bar??? I suggest by balancing melee first to some reasonable baseline, bringing the mobs down to match, then balancing the spell casters, others recommend just a straight nerf to casters........ hmmmm. Wonder which system bodes better for the long haul of DDO.

Cowdenicus
12-31-2007, 11:21 PM
Treat the cause, not just the symptoms!

exactly, that is my point.

GlassCannon
01-01-2008, 12:18 AM
Treat the cause, not just the symptoms!

Posts made in previous threads note a clear bias in this regard.

Please contain your tenacity.

As for the cause, the fact that it is a Computer Game on a Massively Multiplayer scale is the sole cause of all the balance trouble.

Skill vs Gear vs Build.

Cowdenicus
01-01-2008, 12:21 AM
Posts made in previous threads note a clear bias in this regard.

Please contain your tenacity.

As for the cause, the fact that it is a Computer Game on a Massively Multiplayer scale is the sole cause of all the balance trouble.

Skill vs Gear vs Build.

I am biased against broken systems.

Taojeff
01-01-2008, 01:31 AM
Oh, to what extent? Really what he proposes is a full revamp of the game to be in-line with PnP... this would and should include every class not only melee... so he left out a total of 75% of what else would need to be done - ie.) the other classes.

Let me elaborate on something here... via my playing the past two days.

A friend of mine has a fighter... he wished to lvl it to 11 and via the giant hold ruins outdoor explorer and encounters... was late two nights ago and he and I set off, he on his 10th lvl fighter and I on my lvl 11 barbarian... well as you may guess it was a slow and tedious haul and did equate to some minor set-backs... and it was getting late - an hour total in GH ruins and a slow going so we both went to bed.

Last night ... I see he's still at it. I hop on my 14th level wizard and go help... took all of 30 minutes... the power of magic in the game is 10 fold of what is even possible in melee... that is how it is... magic has better CC, better DPS, better defenses, better versitility. A well played caster will play rings around a well played melee... it is how it is. If players do not see that in this game well then they need to step back and see how they are playing.;-) The mob nomore reflect how powerful the melee character is than it does the sorc, wizard or cleric.

The bottom line is casters are wrecking the balance of the game, allowing quest to be soloed when they should not, allowing for easy looting, taking advantage of the AI.

Casters are wrecking the balance of the game and wrecking the fun for everybody but themselves.

Emili
01-01-2008, 01:59 AM
This game cannot work based strictly off of P&P mechanics, they are not set up for this type of game. I have stated the beginning of the solution, not the entire solution.

I would say that your argument that magic has better CC is off also, I have seen some fighters that can throw the CC down with a passion. They just have to be built to CC (kinda like how casters have to be built to do CC to be Good at it).

To be quite honest the whole system needs a nerf just to get us back to where we should be, but how does one set the bar??? I suggest by balancing melee first to some reasonable baseline, bringing the mobs down to match, then balancing the spell casters, others recommend just a straight nerf to casters........ hmmmm. Wonder which system bodes better for the long haul of DDO.

And my point is that it cannot happen in steps, class by class... It has to happen across the board to everything all at once otherwise you end up with the same situation we currently have. As for caster's having to be built for CC... any wizard has that with a prime stat + heighten and spell pene item... and mine is hard spec'd elemental damages yet it CC's ten fold what the best built intimidating tank can;-)

EinarMal
01-01-2008, 07:57 AM
And my point is that it cannot happen in steps, class by class... It has to happen across the board to everything all at once otherwise you end up with the same situation we currently have. As for caster's having to be built for CC... any wizard has that with a prime stat + heighten and spell pene item... and mine is hard spec'd elemental damages yet it CC's ten fold what the best built intimidating tank can;-)

This is what I am saying as well, and well said. You can't scale back melee and perhaps the Mobs and leave casters alone. The development cycle in the game is too long, so that is what 2-3 months at least of casters absolutely destroying weakened mobs with the same power they already destroy them with now? That is crazy to me as well.

Honestly to me they should get to level 20 first and finish the enhancement system so that every class has some "prestige" enhancements, all the feats are in the game and you basically have a "complete" system to even balance. At that point they could do a massive overhaul of the combat system, meta-magic system, ranged etc... and re-balance mobs and quests. Items are another big problem, and I just don't know how you take those out of the game and reduce those now. That is the biggest trick of all, pulling off all of this re-balancing without everyone complaining about "nerfs" and quiting the game.

Shrazkil
01-01-2008, 11:35 AM
The bottom line is casters are wrecking the balance of the game, allowing quest to be soloed when they should not, allowing for easy looting, taking advantage of the AI.

Casters are wrecking the balance of the game and wrecking the fun for everybody but themselves.

Someone needs a latte and a deep tissue massage.

Invalid_86
01-01-2008, 12:12 PM
Posts made in previous threads note a clear bias in this regard.

Please contain your tenacity.

As for the cause, the fact that it is a Computer Game on a Massively Multiplayer scale is the sole cause of all the balance trouble.

Skill vs Gear vs Build.

True, I am also biased against broken systems.

If you look at it the main underlying problems in the game are also rooted in where it unnecessarily deviated from the core rules. BAB. Mob/Boss immunities. Metamagic. Spell points. Enhancements. Those were some of the triggers that nudged us into this power spiral.

redoubt
01-01-2008, 12:19 PM
This is what I am saying as well, and well said. You can't scale back melee and perhaps the Mobs and leave casters alone. The development cycle in the game is too long, so that is what 2-3 months at least of casters absolutely destroying weakened mobs with the same power they already destroy them with now? That is crazy to me as well.

Honestly to me they should get to level 20 first and finish the enhancement system so that every class has some "prestige" enhancements, all the feats are in the game and you basically have a "complete" system to even balance. At that point they could do a massive overhaul of the combat system, meta-magic system, ranged etc... and re-balance mobs and quests. Items are another big problem, and I just don't know how you take those out of the game and reduce those now. That is the biggest trick of all, pulling off all of this re-balancing without everyone complaining about "nerfs" and quiting the game.

Anyone out there remember SWG? They did a massive overhaul to their combat engine and ticked off a great many people. So much so that they made another massive change only 6 months later. Every person I played that game with quit by the time the second change hit. 18 months after the second change they were still trying to get people back that they lost. So yes, it is survivable, but what you see in that game is a completely new set of players. Most of the previous population is gone.

This is simply a word of caution against massive and sweeping game mods.

bobbryan2
01-01-2008, 12:35 PM
You can propose changes to melee... but don't write it off as 'balance'

Melees aren't balanced against casters now, and adding changes like this would further throw things out of balance.

Cowdenicus
01-01-2008, 03:06 PM
And my point is that it cannot happen in steps, class by class... It has to happen across the board to everything all at once otherwise you end up with the same situation we currently have. As for caster's having to be built for CC... any wizard has that with a prime stat + heighten and spell pene item... and mine is hard spec'd elemental damages yet it CC's ten fold what the best built intimidating tank can;-)

It has to happen in steps... It cannot be otherwise. It does not need to be released in steps, but it does need to happen on steps, thank god for internal testing servers huh.

Cowdenicus
01-01-2008, 03:08 PM
You can propose changes to melee... but don't write it off as 'balance'

Melees aren't balanced against casters now, and adding changes like this would further throw things out of balance.

Melee isnt supposed to be balanced against arcane, they are supposed to be balanced against NPC's. dont forget that.

EinarMal
01-01-2008, 03:27 PM
Melee isnt supposed to be balanced against arcane, they are supposed to be balanced against NPC's. dont forget that.

Heh, well that is highly unlikely given all the pro caster posters continually posting this argument that in indeed it is their right to be overpowered at high levels :rolleyes:

Here is the thing, this is a real time fantasy MMO, given that people like playing different characters. I personally don't like pure casters, I like to hack away but also cast more hybrid I suppose like a battle cleric, Bard, or Eldritch Knight if we had it. So, I actually see both sides of things in a sense I do both. If at some point hacking away at mobs becomes secondary, you will lose a lot of players, a lot of people simply like to do that. If I cannot even run to the mobs before they are all dead I will not play the game anymore, because it won't be any fun for melee characters (no thanks on the levers and door blocking or "protecting" casters)

If DPS via ranged (bows) and melee isn't viable at high levels then this game will not be viable at high levels to me and many other players. That is why everyone should care.

Having only caster classes capable of DPS at high levels will not work in an online MMO, so if that is the case in 3.5 rules they will have to deviate from those. Or this game will dwindle to 1 server or none as people who like front line button mashing move on to other games when they cannot compete any longer with their favorite characters no matter how overpowered their gear might be.

Emili
01-01-2008, 07:31 PM
Heh, well that is highly unlikely given all the pro caster posters continually posting this argument that in indeed it is their right to be overpowered at high levels :rolleyes:

Here is the thing, this is a real time fantasy MMO, given that people like playing different characters. I personally don't like pure casters, I like to hack away but also cast more hybrid I suppose like a battle cleric, Bard, or Eldritch Knight if we had it. So, I actually see both sides of things in a sense I do both. If at some point hacking away at mobs becomes secondary, you will lose a lot of players, a lot of people simply like to do that. If I cannot even run to the mobs before they are all dead I will not play the game anymore, because it won't be any fun for melee characters (no thanks on the levers and door blocking or "protecting" casters)

If DPS via ranged (bows) and melee isn't viable at high levels then this game will not be viable at high levels to me and many other players. That is why everyone should care.

Having only caster classes capable of DPS at high levels will not work in an online MMO, so if that is the case in 3.5 rules they will have to deviate from those. Or this game will dwindle to 1 server or none as people who like front line button mashing move on to other games when they cannot compete any longer with their favorite characters no matter how overpowered their gear might be.

I tend to agree - this is currently the problem I see happening... more and more of my guildies are playing sorc, wizard and clerics these days, with thier other toons back burnered with all except to 1.) get them xp to cap or 2.) raid loot. For loot runs and passing the time or to have fun... the casters all seem to come out. Eventually as the trend unfolds more and more of those other classes will become eventually mothballed because they serve less and less a purpose. Logged in right now I see 1 Pally, 12 sorc's, 8 wizards and 3 clerics... all these people have other classes in thier rosters but this has become quite typical - you all know the reason do you not? May not be a good sampling but even when I go to the who's page and organize it by class the wizards and sorcerers account for 1/3rd of the total number of logged in non-anonymous characters online at this moment on Khyber. Does that not tell you something?

smatt
01-01-2008, 08:12 PM
LOL, they are nerfing melee, they have been all along these past 3-4 mods and in the next mod... via adding a 5th attack to slow them down ie.) 96 swings at 4 attacks a min to 80 swings at 5 attacks a min - is the result. To be serious within the past two years - melee took more nerfing (or right sizing) as some would say than all the other classes combined. On the same note they've been slowly building up the other classes versitility to the point where melee is quite an inefficient way to reach the end goals of a quest. This coming level cap , I see no efficiency in bringing a melee class on a quest except to have a 5th or 6th player or because someone wishes to play a melee... the other classes bring more versitility and efficiency to the group. Caster powers are easy buttons now, while the ole swing sequences of melee may be an everlasting source of dps it is a slow tedious and wasteful way to get the job done.
/signed


Hence the problem :)

Seneca_Windforge
01-01-2008, 09:46 PM
10 gp weighs 1 lb if I remember correctly. But they can NOT apply coin weight to us until they allow us to put coins in the bank or convert it to gems or other easily carried forms of money.

50 coins (any type) weigh 1 pound.

Invalid_86
01-01-2008, 10:17 PM
10 gp weighs 1 lb if I remember correctly. But they can NOT apply coin weight to us until they allow us to put coins in the bank or convert it to gems or other easily carried forms of money.

That would be madness! People would actually be happy to find gems!

Although why not allow us to put money in the bank?

Emili
01-01-2008, 11:34 PM
That would be madness! People would actually be happy to find gems!

Although why not allow us to put money in the bank?

What I always found unusual was that my pack holds more than my bank... I wish I could rent a place of my own and buy my own chests to store my gear... the bank lost my gear once ... I really think it was an embezling teller. The manager would not replace my gear either, find it hard to believe they're not inssured.


Lol... 310 lbs of coin to buy 100 heal scrolls... of course cleric may buckle under the weight of the scrolls along with thier other gear;-) I've yet to encoumber any of my melee yet but casters since I start mine with 10 str (and only max them to 16-18 or so via items/tomes) have been encoumbered before while looting. Size also determines encumberance btw... a halfling melee would be at 3/4 disadvantage compared to a human or a dwarf.

Bigger and Smaller Creatures
The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×¾, Tiny ×½, Diminutive ×¼, Fine ×1/8.


Strength
Score Light Load Medium Load Heavy Load
1 3 lb. or less 4-6 lb. 7-10 lb.
2 6 lb. or less 7-13 lb. 14-20 lb.
3 10 lb. or less 11-20 lb. 21-30 lb.
4 13 lb. or less 14-26 lb. 27-40 lb.
5 16 lb. or less 17-33 lb. 34-50 lb.
6 20 lb. or less 21-40 lb. 41-60 lb.
7 23 lb. or less 24-46 lb. 47-70 lb.
8 26 lb. or less 27-53 lb. 54-80 lb.
9 30 lb. or less 31-60 lb. 61-90 lb.
10 33 lb. or less 34-66 lb. 67-100 lb.
11 38 lb. or less 39-76 lb. 77-115 lb.
12 43 lb. or less 44-86 lb. 87-130 lb.
13 50 lb. or less 51-100 lb. 101-150 lb.
14 58 lb. or less 59-116 lb. 117-175 lb.
15 66 lb. or less 67-133 lb. 134-200 lb.
16 76 lb. or less 77-153 lb. 154-230 lb.
17 86 lb. or less 87-173 lb. 174-260 lb.
18 100 lb. or less 101-200 lb. 201-300 lb.
19 116 lb. or less 117-233 lb. 234-350 lb.
20 133 lb. or less 134-266 lb. 267-400 lb.
21 153 lb. or less 154-306 lb. 307-460 lb.
22 173 lb. or less 174-346 lb. 347-520 lb.
23 200 lb. or less 201-400 lb. 401-600 lb.
24 233 lb. or less 234-466 lb. 467-700 lb.
25 266 lb. or less 267-533 lb. 534-800 lb.
26 306 lb. or less 307-613 lb. 614-920 lb.
27 346 lb. or less 347-693 lb. 694-1,040 lb.
28 400 lb. or less 401-800 lb. 801-1,200 lb.
29 466 lb. or less 467-933 lb. 934-1,400 lb.
+10 ×4 ×4 ×4

Taojeff
01-01-2008, 11:50 PM
Heh, well that is highly unlikely given all the pro caster posters continually posting this argument that in indeed it is their right to be overpowered at high levels :rolleyes:

Here is the thing, this is a real time fantasy MMO, given that people like playing different characters. I personally don't like pure casters, I like to hack away but also cast more hybrid I suppose like a battle cleric, Bard, or Eldritch Knight if we had it. So, I actually see both sides of things in a sense I do both. If at some point hacking away at mobs becomes secondary, you will lose a lot of players, a lot of people simply like to do that. If I cannot even run to the mobs before they are all dead I will not play the game anymore, because it won't be any fun for melee characters (no thanks on the levers and door blocking or "protecting" casters)

If DPS via ranged (bows) and melee isn't viable at high levels then this game will not be viable at high levels to me and many other players. That is why everyone should care.

Having only caster classes capable of DPS at high levels will not work in an online MMO, so if that is the case in 3.5 rules they will have to deviate from those. Or this game will dwindle to 1 server or none as people who like front line button mashing move on to other games when they cannot compete any longer with their favorite characters no matter how overpowered their gear might be.

This is absolutely right, as things progress with current unbalance between classes. That is, casters become more and more powerful, to the point where quests are almost obscenely easy on elite with them. Meanwhile, rogues are brought along only if there are traps, and melee classes have little use etc to fill a slot. And then when they do fill a slot the experience for them is really unrewarding. You are a shield wall in some doorway, while casters cheese monsters in a doorway. Or constantly run around after mobs that are aggroed on casters, to finally get to them only to have them pked. A melee job is simply no fun anymore. The fun factor is what this game is all about, and I find as time goes on, it gets less fun for the casual player. More and more everything is about cheesing quest and trying to get uber loot? To what end?

If this game had more then just combat then you would not need to balance the classes, but alas the gameplay lacks in so many different areas that all that really matters is DPS. This is why more and more you see melee being left out of groups, not to mention rogues and other non-essential personel.

Bring the fun back.