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UtherSRG
12-30-2007, 02:23 AM
So.... I got a little bored and decided to guess at some of the Monk implementation, based on what I know from pen and paper D&D. I came up with this Halfling Monk build that might be fairly close to what we'll get in Mod 7 or so, although I'm only making the build to level 14. Consider this a work in progress. There may be some better item combinations that would be nearly required at level 14 or, after level cap, at level 16. These item changes would probably impact the build to some degree, but at least this sets out a starting place to compare against.

Starting stats (32 point build):
STR 6
DEX 20
CON 8
INT 8
WIS 18
CHA 8

Ok, so it's terribly Min/Maxed. I could decrease both Wis and Dex by one and use +1 tomes for them, and +1 Con and Str tomes for an extra 4 points in Con and Str, giving 28 HP and +2 Fort. I'll list this as an option at the end.

Using all 4 tomes, the starting stats would be:
STR 9 + 1 (tome) = 10
DEX 19 + 1 (tome) = 20
CON 11 + 1 (tome) = 12
INT 8
WIS 17 + 1 (tome) = 18
CHA 8

Feats:
Monks only get the regular feats for character levels, so 5 feats (for levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12). In pen and paper, I'd choose Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Imp. TWF and Gr. TWF. In DDO, I'd take WF (bludgeoning) for Unarmed Strike; it will work for quarterstaff as well. Monks also get special feats from a limited list at levels 1, 2, and 6: Stunning Fist, Fiery Fist (PH2), and Ki Blast (PH2). I don't know if DDO will have the PH2 feats, but the options are extremely limited for Monks without PH2. Monks also get Improved Unarmed Strike for free.

Other special monk feats would be:
Flurry of Blows (lvl 1)
Evasion (lvl 2)
Still Mind (lvl 3)
Slow Fall (lvl 4, lvl 6, lvl 10, lvl 12 - Feather Fall for 30, 60, 90, 120 seconds?)
Ki Strike (lvl 4 for magic, lvl 10 for lawful)
Purity of Body (lvl 5 - immunity to natural diseases)
Wholeness of Body (lvl 7 - similar to Lay on Hands, but self-only)
Improved Evasion (lvl 9)
Greater Flurry (lvl 11)
Diamond body (lvl 11 - immunity to all poisons)
Diamond Soul (lvl 13 - SR of 10 + monk lvl)

I'm unsure if Abundant Step (lvl 12 - Dimension Door) would be implemented. At level 15, the Monk would get Quivering Palm, a vorpal-like effect with a Fortitude Save, probably 1/rest. The 2 abilities gained at level 17 (Timeless Body and Tongue of the Sun and Moon) are meaningless in DDO's terms. At level 19, the Monk should be able to go incorporeal via the Empty Body ability, for a limited amount of time 1/rest. At level 20, the Monk's Perfect Self ability would grant her DR 10/magic, as well as some immunity to magical effects, as they become an Outsider instead of a Humanoid.

Enhancements:
Halfing enhancements are already implemented. Some enhancements can be easily assumed. Others are more difficult. Of course the Skill enhancements for all of the Monk's class skills will be there. but I don't plan to take them.
Halfling Dex I, II (6 APs) - must have
Monk Wis I, II, III - follows from most other classes' enhancements (12 APs) - must have
Halfling Fear Resistance I, II, II (6 APs)
Halfling Cunning I, II, III (12 APs)
Monk Improved Spell Resistance I (+3 to SR, available at lvl 13) (2 APs) - follows from Drow Improved Spell Resistance I-IV
Monk Enchantment Resistance I, II, III (available at lvls 3, 5, and 9) (6 APs) - follows from Elven Enchantment Resistance I-III
44 APs spent, allowing 12 APs for a Specialty and other enhancements. I would expect Attack and Damage lines for kama/quarterstaff and/or unarmed strike. I would also expect an enhancement line for the Stunning Fist DC, and/or a line that adds powers to Stunning Fist.

Skills:
I expect the following to be the class skills for Monk: Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex). It's a big list, and Monks only get 4 + Int bonus skill points per level (with the usual x4 for first level). This build, then, only gets 3 skill points per level. However, 6 use Dex or Wis, while the other 5 do not. Pick 3 of the 6 and max them out. A good choice would be Tumble, Hide, and Move Silently. (You can always get a pair of Balance +15 boots from running CO6 over and over with your friends who are trying to get the Mummified Bat.) I wouldn't be surprised if Turbine gives Monks some enhancement or feat involving the Tumble skill. (Imagine a Tumble-based trip attack... a whole bunch of Halfling Monks in a group would look like a bunch of bowling balls knocking down the mobs....)

Items:
+6 for Wis (ring), Dex (boots), Str (gloves), Con (neck)
Chaosgarde
Robe: White Dragonscale Robe
Belt: Gr. False Life
Helm: Minos Legens

Final stats:
STR 6 + 6 = 12
DEX 20 + 6 + 2 (enh) = 28
CON 8 + 6 = 14
INT 8
WIS 18 + 6 + 3 (enh) + 3 (lvl) = 32
CHA 8

Final stats with 4 +1 tomes:
STR 10 + 6 = 16
DEX 20 + 6 + 2 (enh) = 28
CON 12 + 6 = 18
INT 8
WIS 18 + 6 + 3 (enh) + 3 (lvl) = 32
CHA 8

HP:
112 - Monks have d8 hit dice: 14 * 8 = 112
20 - Heroic Durability
28 - CON: 2 * 14 (4 * 14 = 56 with +1 tomes)
30 - Gr. False Life (belt)
16 - toughness from Minos Legens
-----
206 unbuffed (234 unbuffed with +1 tomes)

AC:
10
9 - Dex
11 - Wis (Monks add both Dex and Wis bonuses to AC)
2 - Monks add +1 to AC every 5 levels
2 - Dodge (from Chaosgarde)
6 - AC Robe
4 - Protection
1 - Size
----
45 unbuffed

Attacks:
At 14th level, monks have a BAB of +10. Assuming Monks Flurry of Blows is implemented the same way DDO's multiple attack are, with the extra attacks that have a lower to-hit bonus in pen and paper being given a higher to-hit bonus in DDO, and given that a 14th level Monk with Weapon Finesse and a 28 Dex has a Melee attack bonus of +20/+25, this build will have an unarmed TWF Flurry of blows as follows:
Primary: +19/+19/+19/+24
Secondary: +19/+19/+19/+24

Yes folks, 8 attacks per round. When flanking, add +3 for Halfling Cunning III (on top of the +2 everyone gets). I would not be surprised, however, if Turbine gave bonuses to each subsequent attack, instead of keeping the attack sequence "flat". In pen and paper, a Monk's sequence of attacks is greater than everyone elses because the monk's stays flat while all others decline be 5. Expect the sequences above to be more like +19/+24/+29/+34 or +19/+29/+34/+39.

The attack sequences for dual +1 kamas would be the same. Damage for unarmed would be 2d6 +1 and 2d6, since weapons are not scaled for size in DDO. Plus Stunning Fist or Fiery Fist or Ki Blasts for a total of 14 times per rest. Stunning Blow Fortitude DC is 10 + 7 (14/2) + 11 (Wis) = 28; I think this is a fairly respectable Fort DC.

Saves:
Base saves for a 14th level Monk are +9/+9/+9.
Fort: 9 + 2 + 1 = 12 (or 8 + 4 + 1 = 14 with +1 tomes)
Ref: 9 + 9 + 1 = 19
Will: 9 + 11 + 1 = 21

Options:
1. +1 DEX and +1 CON tome - With this you get 28 more HP, for an unbuffed total of 234, and +2 to Fort Save for a total of 14. I'll probably take this option if I have both a DEX and CON tome.

2. +1 STR and +1 WIS tome - With this you remove the -2 damage from STR, and a somewhat better carrying capacity.

3. Dex & Str tomes or Con & Wis tomes, or all 4.

4. Take Two-Weapon Defense instead of Gr. TWF. You lose 1 attack from your off-hand, but gain +1 AC.

Favor:
1750 favor:
A +2 STR tome would add +1 to Primary hand damage. (But not possible with the STR tome options above.)
A +2 DEX tome would add +1 to AC, and +1 to Reflex save. (But not possible with the DEX tome options above, but you can do this and buy back Halfling DEX II enhancement to buy other enhancements.)
A +2 CON tome would add +1 to Fortitude save and +14 HP. (But not possible with the CON tome options above.)
A +2 INT tome would add 1 skill point for every level after using the tome.
A +2 WIS tome would add +1 AC, +1 Will save, and +1 to the Stunning Fist DC. (But not possible with the WIS tome options above, but you can do this and buy back Monk WIS III enhancement to buy other enhancements.)
A +2 CHA tome would do nothing.
I say it's a toss between DEX, CON, and WIS, depending on your play style and experience, unless you have used the +1 tome options. In that case, take the +2 WIS tome and have 6 APs to spend on other enhancements, or +2 DEX and have 4 APs.

Argonessen favor: +10 HP.

adrinor
12-31-2007, 04:59 PM
Very low strength. I would lower dex to 18 and up str to 12

UtherSRG
12-31-2007, 06:02 PM
Very low strength. I would lower dex to 18 and up str to 12

To what benefit? Carrying capacity?

Snoggy
01-01-2008, 02:51 AM
Playing a melee character with 6 str seems sort of odd.

UtherSRG
01-01-2008, 09:28 AM
Playing a melee character with 6 str seems sort of odd.

You've never played a Dex fighter before?

adrinor
01-01-2008, 03:47 PM
I've played a dex fighter before. Very big mistake in my opinion. Sure they can hit easily but you don't deal **** for damage. Also leveling this character up so you can use the +6 str item will be a pain because you will have a -2 to damage. It will be very funny seeing:

(Combat): You hit Kobold for 0 points of damage.

saber7
01-01-2008, 04:39 PM
Furry of blows and two weapon fighting don't work together so only 4 attacks or perhaps 5 because of the free attack you get at your +1 BAB not the 8.

noneou
01-01-2008, 05:53 PM
You got 8 moons to work on it at least. let us know how you do!!

UtherSRG
01-01-2008, 10:53 PM
I've played a dex fighter before. Very big mistake in my opinion. Sure they can hit easily but you don't deal **** for damage. Also leveling this character up so you can use the +6 str item will be a pain because you will have a -2 to damage. It will be very funny seeing:

(Combat): You hit Kobold for 0 points of damage.

Early on I'll likely use ranged a bunch. I've also been storing some nice twink kamas like a +1 acid of pure good. -2 to damage on that won't mean much since I'll be doing 4 dice of damage. And at the higher levels, Gr. Bane weapons and then the "uber fives" replace that. In DDO, monks don't need to do a lot of damage per hit because they hit so many times more than regular fighters, plus for the effect weapons, more hits mean more times the mobs have to make a save, or the more possibilities for a vorpal effect.


Furry of blows and two weapon fighting don't work together so only 4 attacks or perhaps 5 because of the free attack you get at your +1 BAB not the 8.

Yes, Flurry and TWF work together.

Geonis
01-03-2008, 05:41 AM
Yes, Flurry and TWF work together.

No, they don't. Go back and read your PHB.

UtherSRG
01-03-2008, 05:52 AM
No, they don't. Go back and read your PHB.

Please point out in the text below where you think the one does not work with the other.

Two-Weapon Fighting [General]


You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.

Prerequisite
Dex 15.

Benefit
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

Normal
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Special
A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Two-Weapon Fighting


If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

* If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
* The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Double Weapons
You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons

The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Shield Spikes
When added to your shield, these spikes turn it into a martial piercing weapon that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you. You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.


Flurry of Blows (Ex)


When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry

When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Geonis
01-03-2008, 06:24 AM
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.



If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Pertinent parts are in red.

UtherSRG
01-03-2008, 06:32 AM
Pertinent parts are in red.

That's because the monk is considered to be able to use either hand as the primary hand, i.e., the old ambidexterity rules.

Geonis
01-03-2008, 06:37 AM
That's because the monk is considered to be able to use either hand as the primary hand, i.e., the old ambidexterity rules.

All characters are considered to be Ambidextrous, that's why the penalties for TWF are -4/-4 or -2/-2.

Monks are not allowed to use TWF, because their regular attacks are considered to be with both hands, both feet, both knees, both elbows, etc.....

UtherSRG
01-03-2008, 06:39 AM
That's because the monk is considered to be able to use either hand as the primary hand, i.e., the old ambidexterity rules.

Further, the D&D 3.5 FAQ at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv10192007.zip (page 19) supports my assertion that Flurry and TWF can be used together, although not in the exact way I thought it would.

Geonis
01-03-2008, 07:06 AM
Okay, so I was incorrect.

Although the document you show even says the way it's worded points to it not being doable.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise)


I will let you know this, if I was a Dev, I wouldn't allow TWF to work with Monk fighting, as it would make for much less programming, both graphics and in-game coding.

sigtrent
01-03-2008, 10:16 AM
Monks are not allowed to use TWF, because their regular attacks are considered to be with both hands, both feet, both knees, both elbows, etc.....

Actualy they spell it out directly in the official FAQ that monks can flurry and use TWF at the same time. You suffer attack penatlies for both while doing so and follow off hand rules for the extra TWF attacks (aka half strenth etc...). You also have to use a "different" body part/weapon for the "off hand" attacks that you do for the flurry attacks.

Trust me, its been debated and hashed a 1000 times and the FAQ just comes right out and says you can do that.

UtherSRG
01-04-2008, 10:51 PM
I will let you know this, if I was a Dev, I wouldn't allow TWF to work with Monk fighting, as it would make for much less programming, both graphics and in-game coding.

All it means are more attacks per cycle. Not hard to do for coding, and who cares if the attacks coincide with the animation? I really wish that the ranged attack wasn't so tied to the ranged attack animation.... that would solve some ranged attack issues.

UtherSRG
01-13-2008, 09:23 AM
I've updated my writeup with various tome options. In addition to my original +1 WIS/+1 CON to give an additional +4 to starting CON, +1 DEX/+1 STR, +1 WIS/+1 STR, and +1 DEX/+1 CON options work. so does taking all 4 tomes.

Using all 4 tomes, the starting stats would be:
STR 9 + 1 (tome) = 10
DEX 19 + 1 (tome) = 20
CON 11 + 1 (tome) = 12
INT 8
WIS 17 + 1 (tome) = 18
CHA 8

Final stats:
STR 10 + 6 = 16
DEX 20 + 6 + 2 (enh) = 28
CON 12 + 6 = 18
INT 8
WIS 18 + 6 + 3 (enh) + 3 (lvl) = 32
CHA 8