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View Full Version : What do you mean, jump caps at 40?!



Draiden
12-28-2007, 02:50 PM
Yup. That's what I said when I heard it. With some arguing and testing which led to the shocked realization that this is, in fact, the truth.

Why, Devs? WHY? Why would you do that to us? It's like saying, "With all the loot, tomes, lvl-stat increases, blah, blah, blah, the best we are going to give you for any stat is 22. AND... we're going to let you continue boosting that stat, but we're not going to tell you that the benefit stops after 22."

I really wish this had been communicated somewhere along the way. Perhaps once you get to 40 on the char sheet (skills) it could say "40 (MAX)"? Or a mouseover on the skill could say something regarding this fact? My sorc has done everything he can, including spending valuable skill points, to get up to a 60 jump. I've done everything perfectly on this toon (as far as char creation), accumulated gobs of raid loot, I am favor capped on this toon (-the abbot raid) and now I see that I've wasted skill points- the only flaw in this build.

So, at this point, all I would like to know is wether or not we are planning on this cap being raised. I understand you are trying to limit bug opportunities in the landscape, but I need to know how much I should be investing in this skill in the future.

Laith
12-28-2007, 02:58 PM
[edited out misinformation reguarding tumble]

all skills used to cap at 40. But as for why jump is still capped? Poor foresight in quest design probably.

Apparently they LOVED putting ladders and ledges just barely out of reach.

Draiden
12-28-2007, 03:02 PM
Are you sure about that? I know that when you're tumble gets up into the 50's, then you start doing the flips. Are you referring to the damage reduction from falling?

WeaselKing
12-28-2007, 03:03 PM
This has annoyed me ever since I found out about it as well. I realize that the devs only want us to jump so high so as not to bypass quest features that they have introduce (ie they want you to pull four levers to shoot someone in the air rather than have you jump onto a ladder) but it seems that there would be better ways to do this like reducing the jump height to skill point ratio. It is especially frustrating that this is not explicitly stated anywhere (unless the devs have said so on the forums, but that is not enough, not everyone comes here).

It sounds like the OP has tested this (I have not) but I don't think it is an urban legend like the one that says you have to have precision to hit the pillars in VoN 6.

I do have another question though does anyone know if armor check penalty is taken off before or after the "cap". In other words, if I am wearing armor with ACP of 5 and I have a listed jump skill of 55, after ACP is that a 40 jump or a 30? (I think ACP is doubled for jump, right?) I'm not sure which way I think it should work, but I am curious.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-28-2007, 03:04 PM
Sorry no one told you before OP.

Draiden
12-28-2007, 03:06 PM
This has annoyed me ever since I found out about it as well. I realize that the devs only want us to jump so high so as not to bypass quest features that they have introduce (ie they want you to pull four levers to shoot someone in the air rather than have you jump onto a ladder) but it seems that there would be better ways to do this like reducing the jump height to skill point ratio. It is especially frustrating that this is not explicitly stated anywhere (unless the devs have said so on the forums, but that is not enough, not everyone comes here).

It sounds like the OP has tested this (I have not) but I don't think it is an urban legend like the one that says you have to have precision to hit the pillars in VoN 6.

I do have another question though does anyone know if armor check penalty is taken off before or after the "cap". In other words, if I am wearing armor with ACP of 5 and I have a listed jump skill of 55, after ACP is that a 40 jump or a 30? (I think ACP is doubled for jump, right?) I'm not sure which way I think it should work, but I am curious.

I tested without the armor question, so I do know for sure that this is not urban legend. As far as your other question... if your jump is 44 and your armor penalty is 4, then you are still jumping at full height. That's how it SHOULD be anyways. I'll tell you what. I'm going to test that aspect of it, just to be sure.

Laith
12-28-2007, 03:06 PM
Are you sure about that? I know that when you're tumble gets up into the 50's, then you start doing the flips. Are you referring to the damage reduction from falling?
nm, you're right on both accounts.

they have said that the tumble animations after the 35/36 ones ARE in the game already.

Raithe
12-28-2007, 03:08 PM
Sorry no one told you before OP.

The fact that jump was still capped (after the cap had been removed from most other skills) showed up in the release notes of one of the modules. It's also been an item of discussion several times in several threads.

Swordalot
12-28-2007, 03:10 PM
Are you sure about that? I know that when you're tumble gets up into the 50's, then you start doing the flips. Are you referring to the damage reduction from falling?

Not even the 50s. Mid 30s do it for my wizzy.

Draiden
12-28-2007, 03:15 PM
The fact that jump was still capped (after the cap had been removed from most other skills) showed up in the release notes of one of the modules. It's also been an item of discussion several times in several threads.

Raithe, I've seen you a lot on the forums. I spend a considerable time on the forums, but most of my time gaming. For a player, such as yourself, who hangs out here a lot, I have no doubt that you knew. For a player like me, who spends some time on the forums, I never saw it.

My point is this is a pretty big detail that needs to be conveyed to even the average player, and it should be communicated either in the character sheet or on the skill selection screen while leveling up- somewhere in the game itself. Actually, to be more accurate, my real point is that I want to know if there are intentions of fixing this, or if all of my characters should just plan to cap their jump skills at 40.

Draiden
12-28-2007, 03:18 PM
This has annoyed me ever since I found out about it as well. I realize that the devs only want us to jump so high so as not to bypass quest features that they have introduce (ie they want you to pull four levers to shoot someone in the air rather than have you jump onto a ladder) but it seems that there would be better ways to do this like reducing the jump height to skill point ratio. It is especially frustrating that this is not explicitly stated anywhere (unless the devs have said so on the forums, but that is not enough, not everyone comes here).

It sounds like the OP has tested this (I have not) but I don't think it is an urban legend like the one that says you have to have precision to hit the pillars in VoN 6.

I do have another question though does anyone know if armor check penalty is taken off before or after the "cap". In other words, if I am wearing armor with ACP of 5 and I have a listed jump skill of 55, after ACP is that a 40 jump or a 30? (I think ACP is doubled for jump, right?) I'm not sure which way I think it should work, but I am curious.

Okay, tested.

Removed all armor (yes, down to the skimpies), maxed out the jump to 60. Jumped near the wall, and made a note of where my feet pulled up.

Put on a regular set of heavy full plate to take a -5 armor check penalty and jumped in the exact spot. Feet pulled up at the highest point of the jump to the exact same spot.

Result: the armor check penalty is applied to the skill amount, then capped at 40.

WeaselKing
12-28-2007, 03:21 PM
Thank you Draiden, I will keep that in mind on my Dwarven Fighter.

Gratch
12-28-2007, 03:30 PM
I do remember they noted that jump would cap at 40 so their level/outdoor/city designers would know the max characters could go.
There was a request to make non-instanced areas hit the higher values... but this was declined as well so Keeper doesn't spend all her time adding even higher invisible walls everywhere.

As to tumble. You get the back flip at 31 and the front/side frogjumpflip added at 36. Is there something else in the 50's?

How high does tumble go anyways?
+17 L14 capped skill
+12 (34 dex)
+15 item
+10 tumble spell
+3 tumble focus
+4 skill enhancement
+3 skill focus: tumble feat
+2 acrobat feat (?)
+2 good luck item
+5 skill boost enhancement
73

Do you get any benefits above 36 with tumble? Do you progressively tumble further at least?

Draiden
12-28-2007, 03:34 PM
I do remember they noted that jump would cap at 40 so their level/outdoor/city designers would know the max characters could go.
There was a request to make non-instanced areas hit the higher values... but this was declined as well so Keeper doesn't spend all her time adding even higher invisible walls everywhere.

As to tumble. You get the back flip at 31 and the front/side frogjumpflip added at 36. Is there something else in the 50's?

How high does tumble go anyways?
+17 L14 capped skill
+12 (34 dex)
+15 item
+10 tumble spell
+3 tumble focus
+4 skill enhancement
+3 skill focus: tumble feat
+2 acrobat feat (?)
+2 good luck item
+5 skill boost enhancement
73

Do you get any benefits above 36 with tumble? Do you progressively tumble further at least?

I know there are no additional animations after you get the flips. As far as tumble distance, I think somebody above mentioned that it caps at 36 or so still. I think it's probably more like 40 (just like jump), but I can't gaurantee that number yet.

oronisi
12-28-2007, 05:18 PM
Are you sure about that? I know that when you're tumble gets up into the 50's, then you start doing the flips. Are you referring to the damage reduction from falling?

Jump caps at 40. As stated by someone else, all stats used to cap at 40. The jump capping at 40 I believe is in a loading screen tip message for y'all.

Boulderun
12-28-2007, 05:33 PM
nm, you're right on both accounts.

they have said that the tumble animations after the 35/36 ones ARE in the game already.

My rogue can get a tumble modifier of 85 with the charged buff in the Reaver raid. She still takes around 10 pts fall damage on the ceiling, and has no new tumble animations.

Emili
12-28-2007, 06:24 PM
Was capped at 40 forever I believe? Used to be jump had a wider gap though also... the jump of 40 no longer jumps as high as it used to. In example ... my fighters were able to make near any jump in the game, jumping the von 5 ladder back at lvl 10 cap was a cinch - easy to do without the jump spell. Then the made jump less effective and thus my fighters had to wait till level 12 before they could jump it easily again... now the devs just adjusted the ladder so people must use the cannon to get up.

I understand the ops position totally... there are no limits stated in anything and they typically change them without mentioning it in the game, we have to dig thru forums to find information or possibly get it in a tip note. It is rather idiculas for them to change skills or apply caps without it being openly out front in the manual or in game. They do not offer a skill repsec so people get stuck wasting skill points they would not have.

MeNorel
12-28-2007, 08:23 PM
My rogue can get a tumble modifier of 85 with the charged buff in the Reaver raid. She still takes around 10 pts fall damage on the ceiling, and has no new tumble animations.

I can't get my ranger that high but he can get to a respectable 40 tumble, however this has been bugging me for awhile, when I fall it seems like I can take up to 100 pnts of damage in the Reaver fall.

Is he just getting a lot of bad tumble roles or is there some other mechanic that I am missing because I routinely see others take far less damage than I do on the fall like my cleric with the buff and full plate on takes less damage at times.

Rog
12-29-2007, 12:12 AM
does anyone know what haggle caps at

Emili
12-29-2007, 09:39 AM
does anyone know what haggle caps at

Haggle does not cap that I know of... I know some bards get in the high 60's and they get better prices and selling then mine at 42. Also Umd right now is useful to 44 right now I believe.

SilverSong
12-29-2007, 12:30 PM
does anyone know what haggle caps at

There was a thread a while back that had the highest haggle you could get in game. I think it was like 72 haggle.

Draiden
12-29-2007, 02:23 PM
... which is probably the most you can get for haggle at present time in the game.

wizzy_catt
12-29-2007, 02:43 PM
Are you sure about that? I know that when you're tumble gets up into the 50's, then you start doing the flips. Are you referring to the damage reduction from falling?
32 for back flip and 36 for front flip and theres a new double flip idk how much tumble it takes but only can be reached with a reaver charge

Mad_Bombardier
12-29-2007, 05:46 PM
Okay, tested.

Removed all armor (yes, down to the skimpies), maxed out the jump to 60. Jumped near the wall, and made a note of where my feet pulled up.

Put on a regular set of heavy full plate to take a -5 armor check penalty and jumped in the exact spot. Feet pulled up at the highest point of the jump to the exact same spot.

Result: the armor check penalty is applied to the skill amount, then capped at 40.pssst... 60 -5 = 55. Did you keep adding other items like Tower Shield and Halfplate to get your Jump skill lower?

Draiden
12-30-2007, 02:43 PM
I see your point, Mad. Thanks for the advice.

Actually, I left my jump boots (rr, +15) in the backpack during this test- leaving my jump at exactly 45. Then used the FP to knock it down to 40. 5 points is a pretty noticeable difference, imo, so I didn't go as far as equiping the tower shield. The apex of my jump was in the exact same spot, I am positive.

Shade
12-30-2007, 02:45 PM
Do you get any benefits above 36 with tumble? Do you progressively tumble further at least?

No.
Sidestep at 0 or less tumble
Tumble at 1+ tumble
Backflip at 31+ tumble
Front flip at 36+ tumble
No further progression

However as a 2ndary passive effect - tumble reduces fall damage. Similar to how jump does - but to a far greater degree. Tho generally at about 50 tumble renders you imune to fall damage.

In beta - jump was not capped and furthermore featherfall worked in reverse - your upward movement was slowed like low gravity. This allowed for players to break a huge number of quests, often being able to complete them without doing 1/10th of the normall required objectives.

As such - to prevent the need for developers to have to make invisible walls everywhere and test every possible jump - it was simple capped to a sane number to prevent such bugs in the future and make jump type obstacles easier to balance overall.

Many, many jumps in the game require exactly 40 jump, or very close to make.. And some require exactly 41 - so there impossible, its how quests are balanced and very unlikely to change.

Scrion
12-31-2007, 08:42 AM
My rogue can get a tumble modifier of 85 with the charged buff in the Reaver raid. She still takes around 10 pts fall damage on the ceiling, and has no new tumble animations.

See I don't understand this. My ranger without the reaver buff has about a 38 tumble (just enough for the front flips). She takes zero damage from antigravity in that raid even standing close to the middle of the room. As long as she dont slide into the spikes or get zapped by an eley or the reaver shes fine.

Mavnimo
12-31-2007, 09:27 AM
ive tested this countless times on a few different characters. Max falling Damage is 90 - tumble skill. I do believe a 90+ tumble is possible. Yes a negative tumble will increase the damage above 90. best place to test it is a failed teleport freefall

Boulderun
12-31-2007, 10:19 AM
I only use a +7 tumble item. A +13 would get it to 91.

Mavnimo
12-31-2007, 10:41 AM
got bored so i logged on my rogue

ranks 17
32dex (+11)
item +10
tumble spell(+10)
reaver trinket(+2)
rogue tumble +4
way of acrobat(+2)
ghero(+4)
total 60
Showtime boost +12(10 from boost and +2 from a now 36 dex)
skill boost +5
total of 77 without reaver buff

Just went thru 30 teleport scrolls trying to fail

boosted after the fail and took 12 points of falling damage so i guess max damage is 89 - tumble skill