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Serpent
12-22-2007, 04:30 AM
The far-distant module 7 is promised to be Operation Rogue Love. Here
is an easy change needed to fix some rogue features, and which can be
done right away:

Fix the Rogue Specialties (Way of the XXX) so that choices aside from
Mechanic are actually reasonable.

Currently, the only slightly good specialty is Mechanic (which is a
decent choice if you want to improve trap-busting). The other two are
simply horrible: they cost a high price, but give almost no benefit.
Anyone who plays a rogue can notice this, but I will exactly what's
wrong.

Contents
I. Summary of Rogue Specialities
II. Price of Rogue Specialties
III. Benefits of Rogue Specialties
a. Active Benefits
b. Passive Benefits
IV. Suggested Improved Specialties


I. Summary of Rogue Specialities
As a reminder to everyone, here are the current form of the rogue
specialties (including changes in the WDA but not yet on live
servers). Each specialty has requirements of enhancements, and
provides passive and active abilities.

Way of Acrobat: 4AP
requires Balance2(3),Tumble2(3),Faster1(1),Dex1(2),Haste2(3 )
passive: Balance2, Jump2, Tumble2, 2 more Uncanny Dodge
active: Haste Boost -> 20 sec of +10 Balance/Jump/Tumble, +4 Dex, 25% striding

Way of Assasin: 4AP
requires Hide2(3),Silent2(3),SneakAcc1(2),Subtle1(1),SneakT rain2(3),Damage2(3)
passive Bluff2, Hide2, Silent2, +1 poison save
active: Damage Boost -> 20 sec of +20 confirm, +2 sneak acc, 25% sneak
poison (3 choices)

Way of Mechanic: 4AP
requires Open2(3), Disable2(3), Sense1(1), Skill2(3), Acid1(1)
passive Disable2,Open2,Repair2,Search2,Spot2
active: Skill Boost -> WF heal over time


II. Price of Rogue Specialties
Each rogue specialty imposes costs in four ways:
a. The APs to train it
b. The APs to train the requirements, which may or may not be useless
c. The fact that training one specialty blocks you from taking the other two.
d. The boost usages which are consumed by the specialty's active feature.

a. The APs to train it
Each costs 4AP, all the same. Tie.

b. The APs to train the requirements, which may or may not be useless
To qualify for a specialty, you must spend this many APs:
Acrobat: 3+3+1+2+3 = 12
Assasin 3+3+2+1+3+3 = 15
Mechanic 3+3+1+3+1 = 11
(Mechanic is cheapest)

However, the costs look different if you consider that some of the
requirements are useless stuff that nobody would take otherwise.
Roughly dividing the requirements into Useful, Marginal, and Wasted,
we find:
Acrobat:
Useful: Dex1(2), Haste2(3) = 5
Marginal: 0
Wasted: Balance2(3), Tumble2(3), Faster1(1) = 7

Assasin
Useful: SneakAcc1(2),Subtle1(1),SneakTrain2(3) = 5
Marginal: Damage2(3) = 3
Wasted: Hide2(3),Silent2(3) = 6

Mechanic:
Useful: Open2(3), Disable2(3), Skill2(3) = 9
Marginal: Sense1(1), Acid1(1) = 2
Wasted: 0

Thus, if we look only at the APs wasted on truely useless
requirements, we come to
Acrobat: 7
Assasin: 6
Mechanic: 0
(Mechanic is cheapest, again)

c. The fact that training one specialty blocks you from taking the other two.
This cost can only be seen one you look at how useful the specialties
are. Since it turns out that Mechanic is most useful, it follows that
Acrobat and Assasin are effectively more expensive, since they block
you from taking Mechanic.

d. The boost usages which are consumed by the specialty's active feature.
Each specialty has an active boost which gives you a small benefit by
consuming one charge of Skill Boost (Mechanic), Damage Boost
(Assasin), or Haste Boost (Acrobat). The more useful the regular
boost is, the more costly it is for a player to expend the boost on
something else.

Acrobat: The Haste Boost effect is highly useful for fighting
monsters, as +20% attack rate is a major improvement to damage (and
also special attacks like Wounding). Thus, using up Haste Boost on
anything else is quite harmful.
Assasin: The Damage Boost is fairly useful for fighting monsters, and
gives the rogue decent more damage.
Mechanic: Many quests have no use for Skill Boost at all, such as if
you're only fighting some monsters.

(Mechanic is cheapest from this perspective, too)

Overall costs: In pure APs, the specialties are all equal. But in
terms of the requirements, the usefulness of the requirements, the
exclusion of other specialties, and the diversion of action boosts,
Way of the Mechanic is least expensive.

III. Benefits of Rogue Specialties
IIIa. Benefits of Active Abilities.

Mechanic:
Heal-over-time on a warforged is almost useless for the tiny hps
gained, not to mention the slow casting time for the effect.

Acrobat active boost:
+10 Tumble/Jump (you can get bigger bonuses from spells which last for
28 minutes, if you need it)
+10 Balance (a pure rogue rarely needs more balance)
25% enhancement speed (it does not stack with other enhancement
bonuses, meaning it has no effect on someone under Haste spell or
someone with boots of striding 25% or more)
+4 dex (The most attractive part of the boost)

So basically the key feature of the boost is +4 dex, which (assuming
the rogue has weapon finesse and wears a robe) equates to +2 attack
and +2 AC. It's somewhat fun to
look at your character sheet and see a dexerity 44 show up (bragging
rights), but is this actually helpful? It costs a use of Haste Boost,
which would be increasing your
attack rate by 20% or more. Using Haste boost to hit faster will give
you more hits than the +2 attack would, and the faster destruction of
enemies prevents more damage
than +2 AC would. Or, if the rogue is a human, for just 1 AP you
could get Human Versatility giving 20 sec of +2 attack or +2 AC (buy
it up to higher levels and its +4 attack/AC). Nonhuman rogues who
have 1 level of fighter could train Fighter Attack Boost and Fighter
AC Boost for equivalent benefit (but more total uses).

Overall, the Acrobat Boost is weak.


Assasin active boost:
+2 to hit with sneak attacks (almost worthless, since with flanking
bonus and everything else, hitting the monster's AC is rarely a
problem)
+20 to confirm crits (not quite worthless, but confirming crits is
rarely a problem, and this effect raises your damage by less than a
simple Damage Boost would)
Your choice of 3 poisons:
Icechill: 1d3 dex damage + 10 seconds of slowed attacks
Soulburn: 1d3 wis damage + some seconds of -4 SR
Thoughtburn: 1d3 int damage + some seconds of no spellcasting
The poisons only work on a melee sneak attack, and have a 33% chance
of triggering each time, and also allow the regular fortitude saving
throw.

The poisons are the most complex and interesting part of the assasin
boost, but unfortunately they're pathetic. The rogue's poison can
apply a minor debuff to an enemy, but only if you've virtually killed
it anyhow! With a 33% chance of triggering you'll need at least 4
sneak attacks to even reach the point where the monster starts rolling
a fort save. Three sneak attacks will leave a monster of appropriate
level almost dead- and for the rogue to even get the sneak
attacks, that generally means another character was holding aggro by
doing even more damage. (Alternatively, the monster could've been
blinded or Held, meaning its also not a threat). Even if you are
intentionally trying to nerf you own damage with masterwork weapons
and reduced strength, it's almost impossible to get the poison on a
monster before it dies.

Overall, the Assasin Boost is weak. In fact, all 3 specialty boosts
are overall very weak, and generally not worth expending one charge
from the regular action boost.

IIIb. Benefits of Passive Abilities
I'll look at which passive effects are frequently useful, occasionally
useful, or almost totally wasted.

Acrobat:
Wasted: Tumble2
Marginal: Balance2, Uncanny Dodge, Jump2
Useful: 0

Assasin
Wasted: Bluff2, Silent2, Hide 2
Marginal: poison save+1
Useful: 0

Mechanic:
Wasted: Repair2
Marginal: Spot2
Useful: Disable2, Open2, Search2

Notice that Mechanic wins, as it has the only really useful abilities.
Of course, they're only helpful if the rogue actually cares about
doing better on traps and locks- but I've taken that as a given.


IV. Suggested Improved Specialties
As explained above, all three Rogue Specialties are pretty weak, but
at least Way of the Mechanic has some redeeming value if you want to
be the absolute BEST at traps and locks. The others are simply bad at
their functions, so below, I will make suggestions to improve the
other two, so that they are viable choices compared to Mechanic.

First, scrap the concept of shared boost charges. The active effect
of each specialty gets its own pool of 5 charges, which does not
deduct from Haste Boost or anything else. They, modify as follows:

Way of the Acrobat:
requires Balance1(1),Tumble1(1),Faster1(1),Dex1(2),Haste2(3 )
passive:
Balance2, Jump2, Tumble2, 2 more Uncanny Dodge
+1 Dexerity
You may apply your dex mod (instead of str) on attack rolls with a Quarterstaff
active:
5x 40 sec of +10 Balance/Jump/Tumble, +4 Dex, +4 to resist
trip/knockdown, +25% striding speed

Way of the Assasin:
requires Hide1(1),Silent1(1),SneakAcc1(2),Subtle1(1),SneakT rain2(3),Damage2(3)
passive:
Bluff2, Hide2, Silent2, +1 poison save
+2 damage on all Sneak Attacks
proficiency with the Kukri
active:
5x 40 sec of poison (3 choices) on all attacks (not just Sneak).
Fortitude negates (Fort DC 10+characterlevel/2+int mod)
Icechill: 1d3 dex, slowed
Soulshatter: 1d3 wis, debuffed
Mindburn: 1d2 int, 33% spell failure

Notice that the costs of qualifing for Acrobat and Assasin have been
reduced, as they only needs step I of some useless-skill enhancements,
instead of step II. They also get a weapon benefit which is only
minorly helpful in combat, but enhances the flavor of the class. It
just makes thematic sense that an acrobat could fight with a staff,
and an assasin would use a kukri.

Finally, they also get a significant passive benefit. Acrobat gives
+1 dex, and Assasin gives +2 sneak attack damage. Both effects mean
that a rogue aiming to be the BEST at one of those fields has no
choice but to take the related specialty.

Mhykke
12-22-2007, 04:45 AM
thought it was supposed to be operation paladin love

GuitarHero
12-22-2007, 10:51 AM
speak for yourself. IMHO, the mechnic is the least useful of the lines. You can be a perfectly viable trapsmith without it, and my sneak attack damage and frequency easily doubled with the way of the assassin line.

SableShadow
12-22-2007, 11:05 AM
Like it!

I'm currently using Way of the Acrobat for thematic reasons, but will probably swap it out and skip the Ways entirely.

Of note, though, is that Way of the Mechanic is more useful than you illustrate: if you're int or gear is lower than the average, it becomes much cheaper to buy Way of the Mechanic than it is to buy both Rogue Search III, IV and Rogue Disable Device III, IV to hit the higher DC traps. But that's a minor quibble.

I particularly like the extension of Way of the Mechanic logic to the other two ways, while still keeping the RP flavors of each of them.

SableShadow
12-22-2007, 11:06 AM
speak for yourself. IMHO, the mechnic is the least useful of the lines. You can be a perfectly viable trapsmith without it, and my sneak attack damage and frequency easily doubled with the way of the assassin line.

Haven't tried Way of the Assassin yet; sounds like I'll have to give it another twirl. Do you end up using the poisons at all?

Impaqt
12-22-2007, 11:12 AM
speak for yourself. IMHO, the mechnic is the least useful of the lines. You can be a perfectly viable trapsmith without it, and my sneak attack damage and frequency easily doubled with the way of the assassin line.

Huh? Hoq so you get double sneak attack damage?

Qzipoun
12-22-2007, 11:18 AM
IMHO, the mechnic is the least useful of the lines. You can be a perfectly viable trapsmith without it

You can be a viable trapsmith without any rogue enhancements :D

Lithic
12-22-2007, 12:00 PM
You can be a viable trapsmith without any rogue enhancements :D

You barely need to have a level of rogue to be a viable trapsmith :P

GuitarHero
12-22-2007, 12:15 PM
Haven't tried Way of the Assassin yet; sounds like I'll have to give it another twirl. Do you end up using the poisons at all?

I tried them at first, but its a 25% chance per hit to even activate them, and then the enemy get to save against it, so all in all, its not very effective. But one of the poisons does give you like a +20 to confirm crits, and i use that with my smiter or banisher from time to time. They need to up the rate of poisons coming into play, since in a 20 second time window, you aren't likely to poison anything at all.


Huh? Hoq so you get double sneak attack damage?

From trapsmith over to assassin, its not hard to increase the rate of sneak attack damage. For one, with subtle backstabber, you are getting it longer, and more often. The boosts to damage, especially while dual wielding, come into play a lot more, and a lot more often. I can regularly hit for 80+ points of sneak attack damage alone, and i often dual wield a +5 Acid Rapier of Deception with my Treason, so many times i get sneak attack damage even when i DO have aggro! (Thanks again, Sable, for that blade. It's working wonders for me, and fiendish trolls live in fear of me!)

Impaqt
12-22-2007, 12:37 PM
From trapsmith over to assassin, its not hard to increase the rate of sneak attack damage. For one, with subtle backstabber, you are getting it longer, and more often. The boosts to damage, especially while dual wielding, come into play a lot more, and a lot more often. I can regularly hit for 80+ points of sneak attack damage alone, and i often dual wield a +5 Acid Rapier of Deception with my Treason, so many times i get sneak attack damage even when i DO have aggro! (Thanks again, Sable, for that blade. It's working wonders for me, and fiendish trolls live in fear of me!)

Subtle Backstaber is available to any rogue. Regardless of Way of Line.

Where does Assasin Boost Damage?

How do you hit for 80+ Points of Sneak attack damage? Even if your L14 with 7d6 of damage and have the +8 Via Enhancements and using a +5 Backstabbing Weapon (Available to any Rogue) that makes a max Sneak attack of 58 Points per hit. Where does the extra 22+ Points come from? My rogue with Mechanic has regular 40ish Sneak attacks. If I can get to 80+ per hit it would be worth it to me to switch.

I just dont see it. When I wanna do DPS, I'm dual Weiling a +1 Seeker(+8) Rapier of Deception with Treason. I crit for around 100 Points with that combo. 40ish of it being sneak attack damage. If I could crit inthe 140 Range that wouldeb awesome.

gpk
12-22-2007, 12:53 PM
thought it was supposed to be operation paladin love

Mod7 is both rogues and pallies, shame the 2 classes that needed the most love were on the furthest back burner...

Impaqt
12-22-2007, 12:56 PM
Back to the Original Topic.....


THats a Lot to take in.... I thik the Way of's could be simplified Significantly.. And Improved...

Acrobat gives a Permanent +4 Dex Boost. Or at LEAST lasts as long as a barbarians Rage. 20 Seconds Useless. and the CLicky (20 seconds is fine) is Immunity to being Tripped/Knocked down. If not Permanent Dex Bost, GIve em a +2ReflexSave and +2 Doge Bnus to AC

Assasin should bea Permanent +4 to +8 Confirm Critical. a +4 Stackable Seeker, and the Boost should be "Vorpal". No matter what weapon you have in your hand, while "assassin-ed" if you Roll a 20, and the mob is vulnerable to Vorpal, they die as long as you confirm your Roll.

Mechanic I think is OK as it sits Actualy.

GuitarHero
12-22-2007, 02:18 PM
Subtle Backstaber is available to any rogue. Regardless of Way of Line.

Where does Assasin Boost Damage?

How do you hit for 80+ Points of Sneak attack damage? Even if your L14 with 7d6 of damage and have the +8 Via Enhancements and using a +5 Backstabbing Weapon (Available to any Rogue) that makes a max Sneak attack of 58 Points per hit. Where does the extra 22+ Points come from? My rogue with Mechanic has regular 40ish Sneak attacks. If I can get to 80+ per hit it would be worth it to me to switch.

I just dont see it. When I wanna do DPS, I'm dual Weiling a +1 Seeker(+8) Rapier of Deception with Treason. I crit for around 100 Points with that combo. 40ish of it being sneak attack damage. If I could crit inthe 140 Range that wouldeb awesome.

i'll have to look where its all coming from next time i'm on my rogue, but while i do average less than 80, i do see the numbers hit that high often enough in the sneak attack portion of my red numbers. And yeah, the enhancements are available for any rogue, but so are the trapsmithing enhancements. The assassin emphasizes them though.

But looking at my character planner version, which is fairly accurate to my build...

7d6 sneak attack
+6 Sneak attack training
+5 Treason
53 max


hmmmm, now i'm curious, because i do see the numbers. Wow, i'mma have to take a real hard look at my rogue now, and figure out where the rest of that damage is coming from.

Impaqt
12-22-2007, 03:51 PM
i'll have to look where its all coming from next time i'm on my rogue, but while i do average less than 80, i do see the numbers hit that high often enough in the sneak attack portion of my red numbers. And yeah, the enhancements are available for any rogue, but so are the trapsmithing enhancements. The assassin emphasizes them though.

But looking at my character planner version, which is fairly accurate to my build...

7d6 sneak attack
+6 Sneak attack training
+5 Treason
53 max


hmmmm, now i'm curious, because i do see the numbers. Wow, i'mma have to take a real hard look at my rogue now, and figure out where the rest of that damage is coming from.

And Where is Way of the Assasin enhancing ANY of those numbers?

Its not.

You doing 50ish sneak attack damage like everyone else. Mechanics... Acrobats..... rogues with no "way of" Enhancment line at all.

Assassin is only handy if you dotn have any way of bumping up your confirm rolls for criticals.

GuitarHero
12-23-2007, 07:34 AM
And Where is Way of the Assasin enhancing ANY of those numbers?

Its not.

You doing 50ish sneak attack damage like everyone else. Mechanics... Acrobats..... rogues with no "way of" Enhancment line at all.

Assassin is only handy if you dotn have any way of bumping up your confirm rolls for criticals.

The thing is I DO hit 70s and 80s quite often. And i'm not saying you HAVE to take the assassin enhancement to do it. You can build an assassin TYPE character. By your reasoning, all of the way of lines are **** since you can take the prereqs without taking the lines. If thats what you wanna do, then go for it, but when i say "assassin," i mean anyone who builds in this direction. When i'm less hung over, i'll go try to figure out where the extra damage is coming from, but i do hit those numbers.

Impaqt
12-23-2007, 09:17 AM
Yes, all the rogue Way Of Enhancments are pretty Unexciting.

Thats the Point of this thread.

And back in Response #3 of this thread you were very clear saying Way of the Assasin was responsible for your massive damage....

I'm just pointing out to you thats its not.

Aesop
12-23-2007, 09:41 AM
Back to the Original Topic.....


THats a Lot to take in.... I thik the Way of's could be simplified Significantly.. And Improved...

Acrobat gives a Permanent +4 Dex Boost. Or at LEAST lasts as long as a barbarians Rage. 20 Seconds Useless. and the CLicky (20 seconds is fine) is Immunity to being Tripped/Knocked down. If not Permanent Dex Bost, GIve em a +2ReflexSave and +2 Doge Bnus to AC

Assasin should bea Permanent +4 to +8 Confirm Critical. a +4 Stackable Seeker, and the Boost should be "Vorpal". No matter what weapon you have in your hand, while "assassin-ed" if you Roll a 20, and the mob is vulnerable to Vorpal, they die as long as you confirm your Roll.

Mechanic I think is OK as it sits Actualy.



Actually ya know what would be really nice. If we implemented the following changes

Way of the Mechanic: Change the Boost. It's nice to be able to repair Warforged and all that .... but the timer is really long and the distance very short... so they move out of range more often than not... I've just stopped using it. Instead I'd like the Boost to create a trap that does damage when its crossed by a Mob. The Damage could be equal to your Sneak Attack damage dice (but not have the negative of a critter being immune to it), the save could be equal to half your Disable Device. Sorta like a Clerics Glyph. Drop the use of the Skill Boost to activate and make it a 2 Minute Timer.

Way of the Assassin: Make this so that it Procs a Poison on a Critical as a standard ability. The Poison could be chosen as a toggle choice like a Metamagic Feat. The Boost ability could be a death Attack usable once every 2 minutes. Drop the use of the Damage Boost. Save could be 10+Rogue Level.

Way of the Thief Acrobat: .... um I dunno really... I'll think on it a little and get back to you.

Rogue Sneak Attack Training: Change this from a +2/4/6/8 to sneak attack damage costing 1/2/3/4 A, to a +1/2/3 costing 2/4/6 AP... now I know what you are thinking but hear me out. Have the +1/2/3 add to each Sneak Attack die. ie as it stands now a 14th level rogue with a maxed Sneak Attack Training does 7d6 + 8 Sneak attack damage. With what I propose a similarly stacked rogue would do 7d6 +21 Sneak Attack Damage. I think this is in keeping with the current damage upgrades that are being seen by the Paladins Smite Evil ability the Barb's Critical Rage and the Casters Damage enhancments


Aesop

Aesop
12-23-2007, 10:56 AM
well? any thoughts on the above?

bueller bueller bueller bueller... bueller


Aesop

SableShadow
12-23-2007, 11:37 AM
Actually ya know what would be really nice. If we implemented the following changes

Way of the Mechanic: Change the Boost. It's nice to be able to repair Warforged and all that .... but the timer is really long and the distance very short... so they move out of range more often than not... I've just stopped using it. Instead I'd like the Boost to create a trap that does damage when its crossed by a Mob. The Damage could be equal to your Sneak Attack damage dice (but not have the negative of a critter being immune to it), the save could be equal to half your Disable Device. Sorta like a Clerics Glyph. Drop the use of the Skill Boost to activate and make it a 2 Minute Timer.

Way of the Assassin: Make this so that it Procs a Poison on a Critical as a standard ability. The Poison could be chosen as a toggle choice like a Metamagic Feat. The Boost ability could be a death Attack usable once every 2 minutes. Drop the use of the Damage Boost. Save could be 10+Rogue Level.

Way of the Thief Acrobat: .... um I dunno really... I'll think on it a little and get back to you.

Rogue Sneak Attack Training: Change this from a +2/4/6/8 to sneak attack damage costing 1/2/3/4 A, to a +1/2/3 costing 2/4/6 AP... now I know what you are thinking but hear me out. Have the +1/2/3 add to each Sneak Attack die. ie as it stands now a 14th level rogue with a maxed Sneak Attack Training does 7d6 + 8 Sneak attack damage. With what I propose a similarly stacked rogue would do 7d6 +21 Sneak Attack Damage. I think this is in keeping with the current damage upgrades that are being seen by the Paladins Smite Evil ability the Barb's Critical Rage and the Casters Damage enhancments


Aesop

I like all of them. :)

For Way of the Thief-Acrobat, just increasing Showtime from the current 20 seconds to, say, 1 minute per 6 levels would work wonders.

drachine
12-23-2007, 12:40 PM
i hear you on the action point usage and all that. i agree. and in terms of questing ya mechanic is probably the most useful for traps ans such, but i found way of the assassin much more useful in other situations.

first i would like to say that an extra +2 to hit for sneak attacks alone on top of other bonuses for me alone was worth it's weight in action points. that means you hit 10% more then without out it if you have built your rogue with subtle backstabber enhancements. and sometimes you really want to hit. i'm used to having some kind of attack boost on my toons.

+20 to confirm critical hits is often not need, but at times you do need that. sometimes you opponent has some type of fortification. also, having this boost allows me not to have to even consider taking feats like power: critical, which gives +4 permanant to crits and you don't have to take it's pre-req weapon focus.

poisons are generally weak, but i still use them nonetheless Thoughtburn vs casters, Icechill vs boss melee types, and Soulshatter vs orange named bosses to lower will save so caster can take him out. i have little problem with poison being as weak as it is simply because in PnP it was much worse. The rules for blade venom were 100% effective on strike one, if you missed 50% effective on strike two, if you missed 25% effective on strike 3 and ineffective after that. This accounted for the fact that while you are fighting, you blade venom is being removed from the blade and becoming less effective with each swing.

spending points on move silently and hide allows me solo stuff easier. it also frees up points i would have put into those skills to put into diplomacy and bluff. as welll as the skill boost to bluff, move silently and hide. i use improved feint and can't afford to wear bluff items on my toon so anything that maxes out my bluff, i am happy with.

the other action points you spend in subtle backstabber, sneak attack accuracy/damage are all useful.

also, the damage boost comes in handy as well that you have to put points into. i use it against anything with damage reduction like constructs and undead.

so overall having way of the assassin is not really a bad thing. with the damage boosts and the bonus to hit for sneak attacks alone are powerful abilities in my opinion. the other stuff if just sort of an added bonus for me. boosting to hit and damage and making sure i crit is worth it to me especially when you favor two rapiers in combat.

way of the mechanic was too passive for me. action boost is a good thing.

krud
12-23-2007, 05:35 PM
i'll have to look where its all coming from next time i'm on my rogue, but while i do average less than 80, i do see the numbers hit that high often enough in the sneak attack portion of my red numbers. And yeah, the enhancements are available for any rogue, but so are the trapsmithing enhancements. The assassin emphasizes them though.

But looking at my character planner version, which is fairly accurate to my build...

7d6 sneak attack
+6 Sneak attack training
+5 Treason
53 max


hmmmm, now i'm curious, because i do see the numbers. Wow, i'mma have to take a real hard look at my rogue now, and figure out where the rest of that damage is coming from.

if you are looking in the combat log your base damage is lumped together with the sneak damage. You get something like "You hit for XXX of sneak attack damage". If you are looking at the little red numbers floating above the mob's head, then it is shown separately.

GuitarHero
12-24-2007, 12:30 AM
if you are looking in the combat log your base damage is lumped together with the sneak damage. You get something like "You hit for XXX of sneak attack damage". If you are looking at the little red numbers floating above the mob's head, then it is shown separately.

over their heads, i rarely pay attention to the combat logs unless something unusual catches my eye.

Karavek
02-26-2008, 01:54 PM
You make alot of strong points, maybe you will lookat my post "Cutting to the Heart of the Imbalance" Im curios about waht you might think of some of my points on the % of enemies in the most played quest gimping a alot of the rogues combat ability, among other things.

Also remember the rogue issue spills heavily into the finnesse warrior being overly disadvantaged comapred to strength warriors( i use the term warrior to apply to rogue, ftr, barb,ranger, bard, and cleric who all could and should be up front swinging alot and doing it witha fair measure of equality).

Keep up the good work

DNDJESS
02-26-2008, 10:18 PM
I agree, they are all pretty weak. Acrobat is OK for those rare people who actually use tumble. Mechanic is decent, but definitely needs work (personally I think an animation change is in order - show my Rogue pounding on the WF with a hammer :) ) The repair amount borders on irrelevant in a group scenario, and using up skill boosts can be far from ideal.

Assassin is the most disappointing. The name alone makes you think either 'big damage' or 'insta-kill'. It certainly doesn't imply 'debuff'' or 'stat damage'. But since it's probably too late for that major of a change, I would prefer to see this as a 'stance'-type ability, where the ability remains active until you cast a spell, die, etc., instead of the extremely low duration they now have.

Hvymetal
02-27-2008, 04:46 AM
I agree, they are all pretty weak. Acrobat is OK for those rare people who actually use tumble. Mechanic is decent, but definitely needs work (personally I think an animation change is in order - show my Rogue pounding on the WF with a hammer :) ) The repair amount borders on irrelevant in a group scenario, and using up skill boosts can be far from ideal.

Assassin is the most disappointing. The name alone makes you think either 'big damage' or 'insta-kill'. It certainly doesn't imply 'debuff'' or 'stat damage'. But since it's probably too late for that major of a change, I would prefer to see this as a 'stance'-type ability, where the ability remains active until you cast a spell, die, etc., instead of the extremely low duration they now have.
Actually regarding Way Of The Mechanic & Warforged, my Warfoerged Rogue uses it quite often on himself, while granted I don;t have 400 HP it does help and does cut down on the amount of healing I need to do (I think I average about 50 HP back from it). I do however wish it didn't take quite so long nor look like I am stopping to tie my shoes.