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View Full Version : Revisiting Sorceror v Wizard spell slots



Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 09:00 AM
Now that we've been playing for a while does anyone really care anymore about sorcerors getting only 4 spell slots for each level of spells since it means that we'll get 1 more 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level slot than wizards will?

Aspenor
12-21-2007, 09:19 AM
Now that we've been playing for a while does anyone really care anymore about sorcerors getting only 4 spell slots for each level of spells since it means that we'll get 1 more 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level slot than wizards will?

What are you talking about Yaga? Wizards will have more.

GuitarHero
12-21-2007, 09:23 AM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd67/maniac0352/sorc.jpg

where are you getting your info, OP?

Kraldor
12-21-2007, 09:31 AM
Sorc spell table:



Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
14th 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — —
15th 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 — —
16th 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
17th 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
18th 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1
19th 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2
20th 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

edit: beaten by guitarhero

Oreg
12-21-2007, 09:33 AM
Nvm

Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 10:30 AM
DDO uses the wizards spells per day table for sorcerors (well sort of).

Sorcerors are supposed to get 5 spells of each spell level when they reach the appropriate level.

For instance, a 7th level sorceror is supposed to get 5 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells and 2 3rd level spells. But we don't get 5 first level spells. We get 4. So unless I have a huge bug on my character that I need to report we aren't getting all the spells that we should.

Similarly, wizards are never supposed to get more than 4 spells per level yet they get 5 in DDO. So it looks like the devs got the sorceror known spells table and the wizard spells per day table backwards.

Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 10:31 AM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd67/maniac0352/sorc.jpg

where are you getting your info, OP?

I'm comparing the character sheet of my sorceror in DDO to the srd.

Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 10:33 AM
What are you talking about Yaga? Wizards will have more.

I'm talking about the fact that IF the devs are using the wizard spells per day from the srd to determine the sorceror known spells in DDO then sorcerors will get 1 more spell than they should for 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells at upper character levels.

Admittedly this isn't a huge thing at all. We're only talking about them adding 1 more 1st and 2nd level spell for sorcerors but it would still be a nice little present.

Aspenor
12-21-2007, 10:38 AM
I'm talking about the fact that IF the devs are using the wizard spells per day from the srd to determine the sorceror known spells in DDO then sorcerors will get 1 more spell than they should for 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells at upper character levels.

Admittedly this isn't a huge thing at all. We're only talking about them adding 1 more 1st and 2nd level spell for sorcerors but it would still be a nice little present.

I'm pretty sure they're not.

Wizards have maximum 5 slots per spell level, sorcerors have maximum 4 slots per spell level. (In DDO, of course).

Wizards have at least one more spell slot in each spell level than sorcs, across the board.

Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 10:43 AM
I'm pretty sure they're not.

Wizards have maximum 5 slots per spell level, sorcerors have maximum 4 slots per spell level. (In DDO, of course).

Wizards have at least one more spell slot in each spell level than sorcs, across the board.

Asp, go look at the PnP rule books or the online 3.5 srd.

A 20th level sorc should have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for his/her spells.

A 20th level wizard should have 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for his/her spells.

So it looks like the sorcerors are following the wizard known spell table. If that's the case then sorcerors will end up with more spells at higher levels than they would in PnP which is fine with me.

My original question was this - Have we played with the system for so long that it doesn't really bother us or did everyone not realized the difference between PnP and DDO?

dragnmoon
12-21-2007, 10:50 AM
This is the difference...

I wizard gets to cast more spells a day from their larger list based on high Int... and they get to know all spells..in D&D

A sorcerer gets to cast more spells per day past on a High chr... But do not get to Know more spells for a high chr...in D&D

To make up this difference in DDO since they do not memorize for wizards in DDO and they are based on SPs instead of spell per day.. they gave wizards more Spell slots..and sorcerers more spell points..

Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 10:56 AM
This is the difference...

I wizard gets to cast more spells a day from their larger list based on high Int... and they get to know all spells..in D&D

A sorcerer gets to cast more spells per day past on a High chr... But do not get to Know more spells for a high chr...in D&D

To make up this difference in DDO since they do not memorize for wizards in DDO and they are based on SPs instead of spell per day.. they gave wizards more Spell slots..and sorcerers more spell points..

I absolutely realize this. I'm just wondering if anyone really cares or if sorcs out there would like to get another level 1 and 2 spell slot since it seems this would not be unbalancing.

Mad_Bombardier
12-21-2007, 10:57 AM
I still care. No, an extra Level 1 and 2 spell slot really doesn't matter in the big picture. But, Sorcerors don't need it. Look at what they do have. Sorcs have ridiculously more benefits in terms of faster casting speed, faster cool downs, double SP from items, and more SP from enhancements. You can change spells every 3 days instead of only on even numbered level ups (and at least 2 levels lower than highest spell level). And the kicker, Sorcs should have slower, Wizard casting speed when using metamagics. As soon as you slow down for metamagicked spells, I'll be proud to champion your cause for more spell slots.

oronisi
12-21-2007, 11:01 AM
I absolutely realize this. I'm just wondering if anyone really cares or if sorcs out there would like to get another level 1 and 2 spell slot since it seems this would not be unbalancing.

I think Sorcs are just fine and don't need any more love over their wizard counterparts, thank you.

Aspenor
12-21-2007, 11:01 AM
Asp, go look at the PnP rule books or the online 3.5 srd.

A 20th level sorc should have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for his/her spells.

A 20th level wizard should have 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for his/her spells.

So it looks like the sorcerors are following the wizard known spell table. If that's the case then sorcerors will end up with more spells at higher levels than they would in PnP which is fine with me.

My original question was this - Have we played with the system for so long that it doesn't really bother us or did everyone not realized the difference between PnP and DDO?

Those are spells memoried per day, not the same as spells known by a sorc.

DDO isn't using any template from DnD for their spell slots system, they are balancing spells per day and spells known in their own way.

Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 12:25 PM
Those are spells memoried per day, not the same as spells known by a sorc.

DDO isn't using any template from DnD for their spell slots system, they are balancing spells per day and spells known in their own way.

Well until a dev says something we'll never know Asp. We can only guess.

Aspenor
12-21-2007, 12:28 PM
Well until a dev says something we'll never know Asp. We can only guess.

Something.

See? I'm right. :D

Yaga_Nub
12-21-2007, 12:30 PM
Something.

See? I'm right. :D

Since when did you become a dev? :p

And you missed the dodge-a-thon last night.

Rameses got mad when he lost. :)

Of course I only lasted about halfway through but at the rate I'm moving up in about 3 more contests I'll actually win.

GramercyRiff
12-21-2007, 12:55 PM
I still care. No, an extra Level 1 and 2 spell slot really doesn't matter in the big picture. But, Sorcerors don't need it. Look at what they do have. Sorcs have ridiculously more benefits in terms of faster casting speed, faster cool downs, double SP from items, and more SP from enhancements. You can change spells every 3 days instead of only on even numbered level ups (and at least 2 levels lower than highest spell level). And the kicker, Sorcs should have slower, Wizard casting speed when using metamagics. As soon as you slow down for metamagicked spells, I'll be proud to champion your cause for more spell slots.

Agreed. Wizards are the masters of metamagic, or should be. It takes a full round action for a Sorcerer to normally apply metamagic feats to spells. Because of this and many other reasons (versatility actually being the biggest disparity), it's widely known that Wizards are far superior to Sorcerers in PnP. It's always been my thoery that Turbine overcompensated the relative weakness of Sorcerers compared to Wizards. However, they failed to grasp that with such a limited spell selection as we have in DDO, the gap between Sorcerers and Wizards decreases greatly. On top of the extremely limited spell selection, they gave Sorcerers faster casting (when it should be slower using metamagic), faster cooldowns (this one makes some sense), and double SP from items (no big deal here really).

So no, don't give Sorcerers any more help. They work quite nicely as it stands. Don't bother with Wizards either, as they work quite nicely as well. There are other more pressing issues to deal with, like the slowdown in melee attacks as we level. The inherent disparity between melee and casters is inevitable, but Turbine should at least attempt to close that ever widening gap instead of fostering it. So when melee's 5th swing is fixed (and overall attack speed period), and ranged works much better than it does (this is in progress), and we get more options for melee, then maybe, Tuirbine should address this "slight" to the Sorcerer.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-21-2007, 01:04 PM
Agreed. Wizards are the masters of metamagic, or should be. It takes a full round action for a Sorcerer to normally apply metamagic feats to spells. Because of this and many other reasons (versatility actually being the biggest disparity), it's widely known that Wizards are far superior to Sorcerers in PnP. It's always been my thoery that Turbine overcompensated the relative weakness of Sorcerers compared to Wizards. However, they failed to grasp that with such a limited spell selection as we have in DDO, the gap between Sorcerers and Wizards decreases greatly. On top of the extremely limited spell selection, they gave Sorcerers faster casting (when it should be slower using metamagic), faster cooldowns (this one makes some sense), and double SP from items (no big deal here really).

So no, don't give Sorcerers any more help. They work quite nicely as it stands. Don't bother with Wizards either, as they work quite nicely as well. There are other more pressing issues to deal with, like the slowdown in melee attacks as we level. The inherent disparity between melee and casters is inevitable, but Turbine should at least attempt to close that ever widening gap instead of fostering it. So when melee's 5th swing is fixed (and overall attack speed period), and ranged works much better than it does (this is in progress), and we get more options for melee, then maybe, Tuirbine should address this "slight" to the Sorcerer.


Wizards gained spontaneous casting...a HUGE advantage over PnP. It is the spontaneous casting that made metamagic casting slower in PnP so it makes sense that since both have spontaneous casting now Meta does not change cast rate.

GlassCannon
12-21-2007, 01:16 PM
With a sorc as my main I would gain a LOT of versatility and actually be capable of benefitting a party with something other than just the barebone basics, and soloing the quest ahead of them because they mess up aggro mechanics and waste very large amounts of my SP in the process.

I would like another lvl 1 slot(I have a few spells in mind), another lvl 2 slot(DEFINITELY), another lvl 3 slot(heck yeah!) another lvl 4 slot(yup, got a spell in mind for this too), another lvl 5 slot... the list goes on. I feel like I am running with chains on and I have to find ways to circumvent those bindings.

I can't see myself playing a wizard because there are too many choices... wizards are so very flexible! I find it rather class-ist(yes, it's discrimination) that sorcs should be confined to only 4 spells per lvl, able to change 1 per 3 days at the expense of 50,000 pp to swap a top level one(or whatever it is), while wizards get 5 slots that can be changed at a whim.

Sure we get more SP. Sure we get faster casting. That almost makes up for the level of discrimination shown us by these constricting bonds.

As for those of you crying "Leave the nerf alone!" please, just stop.

Gadget2775
12-21-2007, 02:08 PM
To those who're calling for more spell slots for Sorcerers:

Sure. As soon as Wizards get bonus spell slots from their Intelligence bonus.
(Per 3.5 found at Wizards.com)

—————— Bonus Spells (by Spell Level) ——–———
Score Mod — 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
--------------------------------------------------
18–19 +04 — 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
20–21 +05 — 2 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
22–23 +06 — 2 2 1 1 1 1 0 0 0
24–25 +07 — 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 0 0
26–27 +08 — 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 0
28–29 +09 — 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1
30–31 +10 — 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1
32–33 +11 — 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1
34–35 +12 — 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1

**EDIT** Personally I'm good with the current system. Especially with the limited spell selection compared to PnP **/EDIT**
**EDIT (For Clarification)** The above list also applies to Clerics based on Wisdom**/EDIT**

Taojeff
12-21-2007, 02:12 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Stop asking for stuff you should not be getting, no need to overpower casters anymore.

Ok If you are going to do this, give Clerics double their spells slots, give fighters 4 times their power attack, barbs twice their insane crit ranger, rogues 4x their backstab damage...then monsters 10x their hitpoints, stats, and saves.

Gadget2775
12-21-2007, 02:22 PM
With a sorc as my main I would gain a LOT of versatility and actually be capable of benefitting a party with something other than just the barebone basics, and soloing the quest ahead of them because they mess up aggro mechanics and waste very large amounts of my SP in the process.


This isn't intended to be argumentative...
If you want additional versatility why not play a Wizard. Yes, it means you have to sacrifice spell points and faster casting/cool down. But is it truly unreasonable for Wizards to have a defined set of advantages (trade offs) over Sorcerers?

More Spell Slots vs Faster Casting
Easier Spell Swapping vs Faster Cool Down
More Built in Meta's vs Larger Spell Point Pool (Who needs MT and IMT?)

It looks to me like they balanced everything out fairly well.

drachine
12-21-2007, 10:44 PM
Casters are powerful period and they are supposed to be at high level. There are a lot of situations where wizards are more desireable then sorcerers. How many times have you done Reaver with no one who has the Tumble spell on elite. The party gets a lot more damage. People die. I see it all the time. Or worse, none of the sorcerers have Otto's Dancing Sphere making the run much more interesting.

As more spells are introduced into the game, you will see wizards grow in power. It is inevitable they will become a more favored class again. An extra spell slot at 1st and 2nd level for sorcerers is not going to really change things a whole lot. In PnP, there are some 30-40 1st and 2nd level spells, so knowing 5 really imeans you are going to be in a lot of situations where the spells you know just are not useful. 1st and 2nd level spells don't alter the game so drastically.

I think they should allow sorcerers that extra 1st and 2nd level spell slot. So I take Jump and Melf's Acid Arrow, I still have to choose whether to take Otto's Dancing Sphere or Finger of Death.

GlassCannon
12-22-2007, 02:29 AM
I think they should allow sorcerers that extra 1st and 2nd level spell slot. So I take Jump and Melf's Acid Arrow, I still have to choose whether to take Otto's Dancing Sphere or Finger of Death.

1 _2 ._3 ._4 _5
4 _5 ._6 ._7 _8
6 _7 ._8 ._9 10
8 _9 _10 11 12
10 11 12 13 14
12 13 14 15 16
14 15 16
16

Example above assumes 5 slots for Sorcs. This shows at what level they get what slot. The 5th column does not currently exist. This would not be 'an extra few low lvl slots' as you can see.

GlassCannon
12-22-2007, 02:36 AM
This isn't intended to be argumentative...
If you want additional versatility why not play a Wizard. Yes, it means you have to sacrifice spell points and faster casting/cool down. But is it truly unreasonable for Wizards to have a defined set of advantages (trade offs) over Sorcerers?

More Spell Slots vs Faster Casting
Easier Spell Swapping vs Faster Cool Down
More Built in Meta's vs Larger Spell Point Pool (Who needs MT and IMT?)

It looks to me like they balanced everything out fairly well.

Drop 100 more spells into the mix, and 10 more levels.

Sorcs fall behind, notably. The only purpose they then serve in the future is damage output, because they can deal a lot of it for a long time. They can't swap out necessities that come later in life... they are stuck with permanent improvisation.

We are reaching a summit wherein Wizards are more functional than Sorcerers. SP? So what if you have to waste over half of it because you *cannot* load the right spell for the job?

Faster casting? What good does that do when setting up a barricade? It's only good for throwing fireballs around.

Faster cooldowns? Good for fireballs.

But what if everything is immune to fire? What if it is also immune to ice and PK? Hold and whatnot? In this case a sorc is unable to deal or even attempt to cope with the situation. The wizard rushes back to the shrine and swaps spells, then goes in nuking away happily decimating the quest.

I see what you are trying to say but I am telling you to stop looking at the end of your nose and think ahead.

Griphon
12-22-2007, 07:26 AM
This isn't intended to be argumentative...
If you want additional versatility why not play a Wizard. Yes, it means you have to sacrifice spell points and faster casting/cool down. But is it truly unreasonable for Wizards to have a defined set of advantages (trade offs) over Sorcerers?

More Spell Slots vs Faster Casting
Easier Spell Swapping vs Faster Cool Down
More Built in Meta's vs Larger Spell Point Pool (Who needs MT and IMT?)

It looks to me like they balanced everything out fairly well.

Sorc also receive double SP from items on top of their increased SP pool. (Realize that currently this is at least 200 sp more with the 'Top Item' Skiver.)

Sorcs also do not have their built in penalty for Metamagics. Sorcs (and all 'Spontaneous casters) should be slower than Wizards casting these. I'd love it if Turbined added this, plus I think it would have remedied the need to lay down that silly blanket immunity on the Shadows in Temple of Vol. Increase the time to cast Metamagic enhanced spells for Sorcs would be a good thing.

Sorcs also get to change their spells way more than they 'should'. (Should being based of PnP) You give a Sorc a week or two and they'll have every spell they need for the current mod.

MysticTheurge
12-22-2007, 07:33 AM
Those are spells memoried per day, not the same as spells known by a sorc.

DDO should be using the sorcerer spells known table for socerers and the wizard spells memorized table for wizards.

This means at 14th they should be:

Sorcerer - 5/5/4/4/3/2/1
Wizard - 4/4/4/4/3/3/2

You may notice that at any given level the sorcerer has more low level spells and fewer high level spells. This is balanced.


Sure. As soon as Wizards get bonus spell slots from their Intelligence bonus.
(Per 3.5 found at Wizards.com)

In a spell point system, you don't gain extra spell slots from your stat bonus, you gain extra spell points:


Any spellcaster who would normally receive bonus spells for a high ability score receives bonus spell points instead. In effect, the character can simply cast more of his spells each day.


Stop asking for stuff you should not be getting, no need to overpower casters anymore.

This is something sorcerers should be getting. It helps balance the fact that they get fewer high level spells.

Aspenor
12-22-2007, 07:43 AM
DDO should be using the sorcerer spells known table for socerers and the wizard spells memorized table for wizards.

Disagreed, NOOB!! :p:p:D

dragnmoon
12-22-2007, 08:34 AM
DDO should be using the sorcerer spells known table for socerers and the wizard spells memorized table for wizards.

This means at 14th they should be:

Sorcerer - 5/5/4/4/3/2/1
Wizard - 4/4/4/4/3/3/2

You may notice that at any given level the sorcerer has more low level spells and fewer high level spells. This is balanced.

.

It i balanced for D&D,,, not DDO...

You have to take in to account that in DDO sorcerers also cast faster and have more Sps then wizards... which is why they gave wizards more spell slots then sorcerers..

dragnmoon
12-22-2007, 08:34 AM
Disagreed, NOOB!! :p:p:D

I agree with Asp :D:p;)

drachine
12-22-2007, 08:42 AM
I would like another lvl 1 slot(I have a few spells in mind), another lvl 2 slot(DEFINITELY), another lvl 3 slot(heck yeah!) another lvl 4 slot(yup, got a spell in mind for this too), another lvl 5 slot... the list goes on. I feel like I am running with chains on and I have to find ways to circumvent those bindings.

ya, this post is about one 1st level spell slot and one 2nd level spell that is listed in the PnP rules listed on page one of this post, not getting extra slots because you just want them.

that's one of the things i like about this game is that it is at least somewhat based on existing rules to a game that has been around for decades so until some DEV writes why sorcerers have not gotten their 5th spell slot for 1st and 2nd level spells people will continue to ask about it.

Much in the way they will allow rogue in Mod 6 to choose special abilities or feats at level 10, 13, 16, 19 as per PnP rules instead of having their special abilities assigned to them. Finally with Mod 6 they are changing this to be more in line with PnP rules. I suspect the same thing will happen with these missing spell slots.

Thrudh
12-22-2007, 08:47 AM
With a sorc as my main I would gain a LOT of versatility and actually be capable of benefitting a party with something other than just the barebone basics, and soloing the quest ahead of them because they mess up aggro mechanics and waste very large amounts of my SP in the process.

I would like another lvl 1 slot(I have a few spells in mind), another lvl 2 slot(DEFINITELY), another lvl 3 slot(heck yeah!) another lvl 4 slot(yup, got a spell in mind for this too), another lvl 5 slot... the list goes on. I feel like I am running with chains on and I have to find ways to circumvent those bindings.

I can't see myself playing a wizard because there are too many choices... wizards are so very flexible! I find it rather class-ist(yes, it's discrimination) that sorcs should be confined to only 4 spells per lvl, able to change 1 per 3 days at the expense of 50,000 pp to swap a top level one(or whatever it is), while wizards get 5 slots that can be changed at a whim.

Sure we get more SP. Sure we get faster casting. That almost makes up for the level of discrimination shown us by these constricting bonds.

As for those of you crying "Leave the nerf alone!" please, just stop.

I'm confused... If you give sorcs as many spell-slots as wizards, then why would anyone play a wizard?? Right now, the two classes seem pretty well balanced...

You ARE running with chains on... in return you get a lot more SP and faster casting times... Wizards, on the other hand, are more flexible... You have to choose... More Power or More Flexibility? You don't get both...

Mad_Bombardier
12-22-2007, 09:55 AM
Wizards gained spontaneous casting...a HUGE advantage over PnP. It is the spontaneous casting that made metamagic casting slower in PnP so it makes sense that since both have spontaneous casting now Meta does not change cast rate.What you fail to consider is that Sorc fast casting is included in DDO to simulate the difference between prepared and spontaneous casting. It's not something that happens in PnP and is a HUGE advantage in itself. Spells are supposed to be cast at the same rate. But since Wizards also spontaneously cast in a SP system, Sorcs cast faster to regain that advantage. Therefore, to keep with PnP balance, they should lose the advantage and cast at equal speed with metamagics.

When that rebalance happens, I will be more than happy to champion the cause of rebalancing spell slots. Though, it is a sticky subject since Sorcs can't get a CHA bonus to spells known; only to spells per day (SP). While Wiz gets an INT bonus that can be applied to spells prepared & spells per day (both slots and SP; can prepare repeats, or different spells).

MysticTheurge
12-22-2007, 01:32 PM
What you fail to consider is that Sorc fast casting is included in DDO to simulate the difference between prepared and spontaneous casting. It's not something that happens in PnP and is a HUGE advantage in itself. Spells are supposed to be cast at the same rate. But since Wizards also spontaneously cast in a SP system, Sorcs cast faster to regain that advantage. Therefore, to keep with PnP balance, they should lose the advantage and cast at equal speed with metamagics.

When that rebalance happens, I will be more than happy to champion the cause of rebalancing spell slots. Though, it is a sticky subject since Sorcs can't get a CHA bonus to spells known; only to spells per day (SP). While Wiz gets an INT bonus that can be applied to spells prepared & spells per day (both slots and SP; can prepare repeats, or different spells).

But Mad_B, if the fast casting is there to mimic the difference between spontaneous and prepared spellcasting, and sorcerers have more spell points than wizards (as they would in D&D), what's the balance for giving wizards more spells and sorcerers fewer spells?

In D&D:

Wizards cast fewer spells per day, have a flat 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 spells prepared at 20th, and have to prepare their spells.

Sorcerers cast more spells per day, have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/ spells known at 20th and cast spontaneously.

In DDO

Wizards have fewer spell points, sorcerers have more spell points. This matches D&D's spells per day.

Wizards have longer cooldowns, sorcerers have shorter cooldowns. This is a translation of the prepared vs. spontaneous mechanic.

But wizards get more spells prepared than in D&D and sorcerers get fewer spells known. Why?

Gadget2775
12-22-2007, 01:47 PM
Sorcs fall behind, notably. The only purpose they then serve in the future is damage output, because they can deal a lot of it for a long time. They can't swap out necessities that come later in life... they are stuck with permanent improvisation.
That's life as a Sorc **EDIT** Not being able to hot swap. I don't see Sorcs falling behind Wizards. They just don't provide as many party buffs :)**/EDIT**. The Devs were kind enough to provide a system where Sorcs can swap out spells. Yes, it takes three days per spell, but it can be done.


We are reaching a summit wherein Wizards are more functional than Sorcerers. SP? So what if you have to waste over half of it because you *cannot* load the right spell for the job?
Neither is more functional. They simply fill different rolls. A wizard is suppose to be able to swap out spells but cast less. A Sorc cast more but doesn't have the full versatility provided by a Wizards dedication to magical studies.


Faster casting? What good does that do when setting up a barricade? It's only good for throwing fireballs around.
Faster cooldowns? Good for fireballs.
I've watched Sorcs rip a dungeon apart with PK and Finger. I've watched the same Sorc drop Firewalls and Cone of Cold. No, they couldn't hot swap if those four spells failed...They might drop a hypno pattern or FTS depending on the caster.


But what if everything is immune to fire? What if it is also immune to ice and PK? Hold and whatnot? In this case a sorc is unable to deal or even attempt to cope with the situation. The wizard rushes back to the shrine and swaps spells, then goes in nuking away happily decimating the quest.
If they'e imune to all of that the Wiz is in trouble to. Yes, he can swap spells at the shrine. But does he have the enhancements to back the spells up? Does it really matter if he can throw out an acid fog if it doesn't deal the damage? After all, the hack'n'slashers are going to have to pick up the slack.

Drider
12-22-2007, 01:51 PM
/runs around bopping everyone over the head with a rubber chicken.

Sorcs don't need more love. My sorc already has 700 sp's over my wiz. As it is until they add a large amount of more useful spells at all levels, Wizzy's are relegated to dancing sphere duty in the Reaver.. other then that you don't really need them over a sorc. :(

And yes.. I would rather play my Wizzy then my Sorc, but other then love for the class and some extra feats, there is just not much reason to.

Gadget2775
12-22-2007, 01:58 PM
DDO should be using the sorcerer spells known table for socerers and the wizard spells memorized table for wizards.

This means at 14th they should be:

Sorcerer - 5/5/4/4/3/2/1
Wizard - 4/4/4/4/3/3/2

You may notice that at any given level the sorcerer has more low level spells and fewer high level spells. This is balanced.

In a spell point system, you don't gain extra spell slots from your stat bonus, you gain extra spell points:

This is something sorcerers should be getting. It helps balance the fact that they get fewer high level spells.

Per the books you are certainly correct, I didn't poke into the spell point system provided for 3.5. That doesn't mean I agree with reducing Wizard prepped spells to 4 max per level. I think it'd be unbalancing within the confines of this game...Sorcs with additional low level spells also feels off to me, but I don't think I can put the why of it into words.

Kargon
12-22-2007, 02:00 PM
As it is until they add a large amount of more useful spells at all levels, Wizzy's are relegated to dancing sphere duty in the Reaver.. other then that you don't really need them over a sorc. :(

BAH! That Kargon sorcermermers job too! :D

sultro
12-22-2007, 02:06 PM
Something.

See? I'm right. :D

its about time you admitted it asp. how long you been on the payroll?

Aspenor
12-22-2007, 02:07 PM
Per the books you are certainly correct, I didn't poke into the spell point system provided for 3.5. That doesn't mean I agree with reducing Wizard prepped spells to 4 max per level. I think it'd be unbalancing within the confines of this game...Sorcs with additional low level spells also feels off to me, but I don't think I can put the why of it into words.

It makes more sense to me that wizards have more spells at all levels than sorcerors. It takes into account the study/learning aspect of being a wizard, exemplifying his ability to hold more different spells in his head.

I think that this is one area where it is suitable for DDO to deviate from PnP, and I play both a wizard and a sorceror, so I have no biases.

Aspenor
12-22-2007, 02:12 PM
its about time you admitted it asp. how long you been on the payroll?

I'm not on the payroll, I'm a developer.

As in, I develop opinions and force them on you. Bwahahaha

Gadget2775
12-22-2007, 02:54 PM
It makes more sense to me that wizards have more spells at all levels than sorcerors. It takes into account the study/learning aspect of being a wizard, exemplifying his ability to hold more different spells in his head.


That exemplifies my feelings. T/Y Asp

Emili
12-22-2007, 03:47 PM
DDO should be using the sorcerer spells known table for socerers and the wizard spells memorized table for wizards.

This means at 14th they should be:

Sorcerer - 5/5/4/4/3/2/1
Wizard - 4/4/4/4/3/3/2

You may notice that at any given level the sorcerer has more low level spells and fewer high level spells. This is balanced.



In a spell point system, you don't gain extra spell slots from your stat bonus, you gain extra spell points:





This is something sorcerers should be getting. It helps balance the fact that they get fewer high level spells.

This is correct however because DDO uses but a sub-set of DnD spells I believe they attempted to balance it out seeing that the wizards spell selection for a given spell slot could be 6 times that of the sorc's choice of 5 level one spells in PnP. DDO has a limited number of spells by comparison thus limited the wizards versitilty to a great extent. The DDO system also uses stat items to increase spell points... this is not true of the PnP spell point variant rule either... as in PnP only a permanent change effects a spell point pool. The comparable wizard in PnP under the spell point rule is only at most 5 or so less spells per rest then a sorc DDO this number of castable spells is greater it seems ie.) 700 sp is an average of 14 spells more a sorc can cast.

MysticTheurge
12-22-2007, 04:36 PM
My sorc already has 700 sp's over my wiz.

I'd guess your wizard has about, what 1200-1400 spell points and your sorcerer has 1900-2100?

Given it's a 2:3 ratio in D&D, that's pretty close to the right kind of spell point numbers.


This is correct however because DDO uses but a sub-set of DnD spells ...

I always find this argument slightly amusing.

Sorcerers and Wizards are balanced against each other using only the spells in the SRD. The hundreds, if not thousands, of other spells released in subsequent supplements do tend to tip the scale a bit more towards wizards, but they're not required for the two to be balanced.

In addition, I don't think I buy that the faster cooldowns are really enough to balance out the bump in power wizards get from the spell point system. I mean, in D&D you memorize one fireball and that's it, that's all you've got. But the sorcerer, if he knows fireball, he can cast 6 of them. The increase in power and versatility that the SP system brings to wizards is significantly larger than the one it brings to sorcerers. Add in the power of the metamagic system in DDO, and wizards' free metamagic feats, and they're a pretty butch class, even without the spells-know/spells-memorized numbers being wonky.

And heck, no one's even asking for a reduction in the wizard's spell numbers, we'd just like to see sorcerers get the extra first and second level spell slot they ought to have.

Or, you know, barring that, sorcerers ought to get 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. Giving them 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 would just be mean.

brshelton
12-22-2007, 04:50 PM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd67/maniac0352/sorc.jpg

where are you getting your info, OP?


GAGHKKK!!!!!!!! How come I don't have 9 1st spell slots..... that and level 2 are my most cramped levels bar level 4

MysticTheurge
12-22-2007, 04:54 PM
GAGHKKK!!!!!!!! How come I don't have 9 1st spell slots..... that and level 2 are my most cramped levels bar level 4

9 0th-level spells (i.e. cantrips).

And you don't have them because DDO doesn't have 0th-level spells

Emili
12-22-2007, 04:54 PM
GAGHKKK!!!!!!!! How come I don't have 9 1st spell slots..... that and level 2 are my most cramped levels bar level 4

That chart is 9 zero level spells not first level.

brshelton
12-22-2007, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE=GlassCannon;1487994]But what if everything is immune to fire? What if it is also immune to ice and PK? Hold and whatnot? In this case a sorc is unable to deal or even attempt to cope with the situation. The wizard rushes back to the shrine and swaps spells, then goes in nuking away happily decimating the quest.
QUOTE]

then the turbine developers need to get their heads out of their asses and not use blanket immunities as a fix for their mistakes. but they would never do that....

Mad_Bombardier
12-22-2007, 05:51 PM
But wizards get more spells prepared than in D&D and sorcerers get fewer spells known. Why?Unlike Sorc bonus spells which can only use spells known, Wizard bonus spells from high INT count double. In the spell slot system, they are simultaneously extra spell slots and extra castings. It's not just extra castings of the same 4 memorized spells; it's extra slots for new spells if the Wizard so desires. So, in our SP system, they give SP and spell slots. Turbine has decided that for general balance and with the limited spell selection in DDO that Wizards get +1 spell slot per level. It's a decent compromise. Full flexibility of the SP system and limited flexibility of +1 spell slot.

As we get more spells, I'd like to see this open up to +2 spell slots (no real need for +3 or higher in a SP system). And then maybe Sorcs could get more spells known. But, given the limited selection of spells, Wizards get only +1 and Sorcs get -1 instead of +2 and +0.

But, Sorcerers should still not be casting at fast speeds when using metamagics.

Emili
12-22-2007, 06:09 PM
I'd guess your wizard has about, what 1200-1400 spell points and your sorcerer has 1900-2100?

Given it's a 2:3 ratio in D&D, that's pretty close to the right kind of spell point numbers.



I always find this argument slightly amusing.

Sorcerers and Wizards are balanced against each other using only the spells in the SRD. The hundreds, if not thousands, of other spells released in subsequent supplements do tend to tip the scale a bit more towards wizards, but they're not required for the two to be balanced.

In addition, I don't think I buy that the faster cooldowns are really enough to balance out the bump in power wizards get from the spell point system. I mean, in D&D you memorize one fireball and that's it, that's all you've got. But the sorcerer, if he knows fireball, he can cast 6 of them. The increase in power and versatility that the SP system brings to wizards is significantly larger than the one it brings to sorcerers. Add in the power of the metamagic system in DDO, and wizards' free metamagic feats, and they're a pretty butch class, even without the spells-know/spells-memorized numbers being wonky.

And heck, no one's even asking for a reduction in the wizard's spell numbers, we'd just like to see sorcerers get the extra first and second level spell slot they ought to have.

Or, you know, barring that, sorcerers ought to get 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. Giving them 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 would just be mean.

What I mean by this is ... As for the DDO spell lists I can probably count on my fingers - well maybe a little more - how often I switched out spells on my capped 14th level wizard.

Eh, I can agree with that however seeing that DDO is not an initiative based game and a sorc gets off nearly two spells to a wizards 1 in real-time, along with the fact that the number of useful spells in DDO are limited I would hope that Turbine would figure in a decent adjustment to both classes. As it is currently a 14th level wizard in DDO actually has 31 spell slots availabe... they typically end up being a party buffer as many a sorc do not carry the full line ... so going into a quest they tend to need to utilize their SP in a more supportive role then the average sorc thus the average wizard plays more of a backseat role in an actual encounter then the average sorc because SP on a wiz is a much more limited resouce and a sorc can cast quicker. Do you know how much SP or time I waste on my wizard because the sorc also happened to pick the same target mob thus landing the spell first? It is not exactly the number of castable spells which determines power.

When I decided to build a pure arcane caster... I asked the most the experienced caster players in my guild - they told me to make a wizard to learn and see the differences in spells and then when capped shelf it and make a sorc.

Then again this thread is like all the nerf vs gimme threads... It's more of a question of player consideration really and how well people value each other's company. Brings me to a DDO experience...

It was one of the +1 loot weekends ... not too long after mod 4. Put together a group to do PoP - aye, nothing more than a loot run but you'll get to see something here. The group consisted of 2 melee a cleric a wizard and a sorc. The sorc was probably the 3rd or maybe 4th person to join the group. The last one or two people to join were maybe but 30 seconds to a minute after the sorc... head off to PoP and enter the quest... hmmm the sorc already finishing up clearing the halls he's in the dial room with the big skele... well off to the first room... sorc enters and yells at wiz to pull the switch, the sorc blasts everything in the room, onto next room ... same deal, PULL! , next room PULL!, opps sorc took a little damage cleric tries to top him off with wand... sorc screams "HEAL ME DON'T WAND WHIP ME!" ... next room PULL! - at that point one of the melee shout back PULL IT YOUR %^&%&% SELF! ... so then the sorc runs out of the room and before the cleric or wizard can prepare the people in the room with resists PULL'S the switch thus some people die... Oooo, the tension in the air was so think I swear I could cut it with my khopesh. Next room sorc enters room and tank pulls and I swear the cleric must had put him on the low priority list as the sorc died then... well res and onto the end boss. Boss dies and sorc uses a greater tele scroll leaves and drops group... good thing I looked as he picked restless isle as the destination;-) Most likely on spite.

As you can see, this was a problem because the system afforded the sorc a tool to reinforce his ego. Alowing him to be inconsiderate of others.

brshelton
12-22-2007, 06:17 PM
9 0th-level spells (i.e. cantrips).

And you don't have them because DDO doesn't have 0th-level spells

o...ya....doh.... well I'd like my 5 level ones then :) level 0 spells would be nifty too though but not worth the time to code etc.

Seneca_Windforge
12-22-2007, 06:47 PM
DDO should be using the sorcerer spells known table for socerers and the wizard spells memorized table for wizards.

This means at 14th they should be:

Sorcerer - 5/5/4/4/3/2/1
Wizard - 4/4/4/4/3/3/2

You may notice that at any given level the sorcerer has more low level spells and fewer high level spells. This is balanced.



In a spell point system, you don't gain extra spell slots from your stat bonus, you gain extra spell points:





This is something sorcerers should be getting. It helps balance the fact that they get fewer high level spells.

However, in DDO, lower level spells don't drop in usefulness the way they do in tabletop. Scorching Ray in PnP is moderately useful at higher levels (mostly as a decent attack spell for those times when your foes don't warrant something bigger), but in DDO is an awesome single-target damage dealer. 1st level spells are in PnP are often just used for utility spells that might be handy but aren't really awesome (Shield, Mage Armor, Detect Undead, Identify) but 1st level spells in DDO are great even at level 14 (Jump, Tumble in some cases, Shield, even Ray of Enfeeblement can be nice sometimes because it works on red names).

I think that, especially given the fact that probably half of the spells at any given level in DDO are pretty much useless (sometimes more than half -- I'm looking at you, 5th level spells!), giving Sorcerers four 1st/2nd level spells slots instead of five is just fine. It helps maintain the Wizard's versatility.

As for Sorcerers versus Wizards...I think that the only real problem is the general lack of good spells in the game. A Sorcerer can't quite carry all of the good ones, but he can carry most of them, so the Wizard's versatility isn't quite as cool as it should be. I suspect that, as more (useful) spells are added to the game, the Wizard will begin to look better again.

MysticTheurge
12-22-2007, 08:49 PM
Scorching Ray in PnP is moderately useful at higher levels (mostly as a decent attack spell for those times when your foes don't warrant something bigger), but in DDO is an awesome single-target damage dealer.

Because Ray spells in DDO are broken.

MysticTheurge
12-22-2007, 08:51 PM
In the spell slot system, they are simultaneously extra spell slots and extra castings. It's not just extra castings of the same 4 memorized spells; it's extra slots for new spells if the Wizard so desires.

Yes, but this isn't true in a spell point system, even the one in the SRD. In a spell point system everyone gets extra spell points for high ability scores and no extra "spells known."

If you ask me, this is more than made up for by the versatility that prepared-spell casters gain in the spell point system.

Mad_Bombardier
12-23-2007, 10:31 AM
Yes, but this isn't true in a spell point system, even the one in the SRD. In a spell point system everyone gets extra spell points for high ability scores and no extra "spells known."And I'd say that is a big failing of the variant rules spell point system. One that I'm happy that Turbine made an effort to correct.

Aspenor
12-23-2007, 10:32 AM
And I'd say that is a big failing of the variant rules spell point system. One that I'm happy that Turbine made an effort to correct.

QFT

MysticTheurge
12-23-2007, 11:50 AM
And I'd say that is a big failing of the variant rules spell point system. One that I'm happy that Turbine made an effort to correct.

Really, because I think it's a decent balance for the extra versatility that prepared-spell casters get in the spell point system.

If you let clerics and wizards have 1-3 extra spells "memorized" at each level and the versatility of the spell point system...

Aspenor
12-23-2007, 12:01 PM
Really, because I think it's a decent balance for the extra versatility that prepared-spell casters get in the spell point system.

If you let clerics and wizards have 1-3 extra spells "memorized" at each level and the versatility of the spell point system...

Still, versatility is only marginally beneficial in DDO, with the extremely combat intensive gameplay. I don't feel it's that big of a benefit.

MysticTheurge
12-23-2007, 12:06 PM
Still, versatility is only marginally beneficial in DDO, with the extremely combat intensive gameplay. I don't feel it's that big of a benefit.

You mean a wizard's natural versatility? Or you mean the improved spellcasting versatility from converting to the spell point system?

Because while I might agree on the former, I'd strongly disagree with the latter.

The ability to determine, on the fly, what you're going to cast from your list is more in DDO's combat-oriented campaign than it is in many other situations. You need to cast Resist on everyone? Go ahead. You want to Haste every three-four minutes? Go ahead. You want to cast Finger of Death on every monster you run across? Go ahead.

These are not things a wizard can normally do without greatly sacrificing is natural versatility.

Aspenor
12-23-2007, 12:11 PM
You mean a wizard's natural versatility? Or you mean the improved spellcasting versatility from converting to the spell point system?

Because while I might agree on the former, I'd strongly disagree with the latter.

The ability to determine, on the fly, what you're going to cast from your list is more in DDO's combat-oriented campaign than it is in many other situations. You need to cast Resist on everyone? Go ahead. You want to Haste every three-four minutes? Go ahead. You want to cast Finger of Death on every monster you run across? Go ahead.

These are not things a wizard can normally do without greatly sacrificing is natural versatility.

IMHO the versatility benefit is less so in combat, a sorceror can accomplish all three of the above things with just one pool of spell points.

The versatility benefit is much more so in PnP where the wizard can memorize battle spells for battles, and non-battle spells for other times. Scrying for example, or using stealth spells. In PnP you come across a wide array of situations where that versatility is amazingly useful.

In DDO, where the only thing of importance is how quick can you incapacitate or dispatch a group of monsters, the usefulness of that versatility becomes marginally less.

Luthen
12-23-2007, 12:20 PM
I'm talking about the fact that IF the devs are using the wizard spells per day from the srd to determine the sorceror known spells in DDO then sorcerors will get 1 more spell than they should for 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells at upper character levels.

Admittedly this isn't a huge thing at all. We're only talking about them adding 1 more 1st and 2nd level spell for sorcerors but it would still be a nice little present.

So the ability to cast spells without much chance of interruption isn't a "little present"? The ability to get double the benefit from spell point items isn't a nice "little present"? It's a trade off Yaga. you get some serious benefits but have to give up some perks to get them. Wizards on the other hand can memorize more spells and change them at will but we have fewer spell points and, unless we have the quicken feat, are more likely to be interrupted.

I am a cleric by nature. I do have a wizard and enjoy him. I have dabbled with a Sorcerer but didn;t like the limitation on spell selection. that's my preference. i give up some benefits for others. You do the same. If anything I'd like to see Wizards get a 1.25x increase on SP items when Sorcerers get 2x the benefit. Puts Wizards above clerics but still below Sorcerers.

MysticTheurge
12-23-2007, 12:21 PM
IMHO the versatility benefit is less so in combat, a sorceror can accomplish all three of the above things with just one pool of spell points.

Right, the sorcerer can do it too in DDO, but the sorcerer's a lot closer to being able to do it in (standard) D&D.


The versatility benefit is much more so in PnP where the wizard can memorize battle spells for battles, and non-battle spells for other times. Scrying for example, or using stealth spells. In PnP you come across a wide array of situations where that versatility is amazingly useful.

In DDO, where the only thing of importance is how quick can you incapacitate or dispatch a group of monsters, the usefulness of that versatility becomes marginally less.

Here, you're talking about the wizards natural versatility, and like I said, I can agree to a point.

Though keep in mind, that in some ways that can be a drawback for wizards. You don't get to prepare some battle spells and some non-battle spells and then spend your SPs on the battle spells if you never see non-battle situations. In a spell slot system, you've memorized those non-battle spells and that's that, if you don't need them during the day, they're wasted.

The sorcerer doesn't have that problem. If he knows some battle spells and some non-battle spells of a given level, and there are days where he doesn't need his non-battle spells, he can spend all of his spells per day on the battle spells.

Aspenor
12-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Right, the sorcerer can do it too in DDO, but the sorcerer's a lot closer to being able to do it in (standard) D&D.



Here, you're talking about the wizards natural versatility, and like I said, I can agree to a point.

Though keep in mind, that in some ways that can be a drawback for wizards. You don't get to prepare some battle spells and some non-battle spells and then spend your SPs on the battle spells if you never see non-battle situations. In a spell slot system, you've memorized those non-battle spells and that's that, if you don't need them during the day, they're wasted.

The sorcerer doesn't have that problem. If he knows some battle spells and some non-battle spells of a given level, and there are days where he doesn't need his non-battle spells, he can spend all of his spells per day on the battle spells.

Thanks for the explanation, MT, but uh....where's your point in all that DnD jargon? ;) I see evidence but no conclusion and/or argument.

MysticTheurge
12-23-2007, 12:30 PM
I see evidence but no conclusion and/or argument.

The increase in power that a wizard (or cleric) gets from a spell point system is significantly greater than the increase in power that a sorcerer (or bard) gets from a spell point system.

In terms of variance from D&D:

Wizards get increased power from on-the-fly spellcasting due to the spell point system.
Sorcerers get faster cooldowns (which, as a reminder, were just recently toned down to be not as fast as they were before).

Both classes benefit from not having to prepare/learn non-combat spells.

But you guys are arguing that wizards should also get more spells memorized per day and sorcerers should get fewer. I'm not seeing the balance.

Aspenor
12-23-2007, 12:42 PM
I'm not seeing the balance.

n00bsAUce!

From experiencing both the wizard and sorceror casting spectrums (I have what, 2 wizards and 4 sorcerors?) very deeply I can say that sorcerors' fast casting is IMHO, DDO-wise, a greater benefit than versatility, and that the extra SP sorcs have also is a greater benefit than wizards' extra spell slots.

At least that's the case for most players and their playstyle.

Without relating exact casting times and such, it's hard to describe why I assert this. It's all a matter of opinion, I guess. I find that the increased casting speeds and SP for sorcerors are much more useful than a wizard's extra spell slots per level and memorizing ability.

drachine
12-23-2007, 12:56 PM
it would be nice to know from a dev why the sorc has been limited to 4 1st and 4 2nd level spells.

as many have stated it would bring the class in lien with rules without unbalancing the game.

i respect the argument that sorcerers are more powerful, but i believe this will not always be the case as more and more and more spells are introduced into the game. sorcerer will still be desired, but as more quests are introduced, things will become more situational. You will need a tumble spell or whatever it is to save the party a great deal of headache.

and some other class like the wizard will have to provide it simply because sorcerers will generally not take such spells.

also, until someone addresses it, it will be an issue that keeps coming up because of the rules much like rogue special abilities choices at high lievels.

MysticTheurge
12-23-2007, 12:59 PM
From experiencing both the wizard and sorceror casting spectrums (I have what, 2 wizards and 4 sorcerors?) very deeply I can say that sorcerors' fast casting is IMHO, DDO-wise, a greater benefit than versatility, and that the extra SP sorcs have also is a greater benefit than wizards' extra spell slots.

Yes, but you're comparing those two things in a vacuum without viewing how they differ from D&D.

If you're going to compare the two classes wholly in DDO, you need to compare them fully.

How much of an advantage is the Wizards 3 (soon to be 4) free metamagic feats?
How will this play out at higher levels where wizards will (and should) have more higher level spells than sorcerers?

Honestly, guys, that's what I'm not getting. No one's saying sorcerers should have more spells than wizards across the board. In fact, they shouldn't. But they should have 1 more first and second level spell slot (heck, wizards can keep their 5 slots for all I care). This should be more than made up for by the fact that they can't ever get more than 3 spells of 6th through 9th level where the wizard can get 4.

Mad_Bombardier
12-23-2007, 05:20 PM
Right, the sorcerer can do it too in DDO, but the sorcerer's a lot closer to being able to do it in (standard) D&D.That is part of the problem. Sorcs are pretty much SP casters in the spellslot system. So, the translation to a full SP system has few differences.


The increase in power that a wizard (or cleric) gets from a spell point system is significantly greater than the increase in power that a sorcerer (or bard) gets from a spell point system.Remember too, that Sorcs also gain spell level flexibility in a SP system. It's not just Wiz and Clerics who get all the benefits. And you are continually forgetting the fast casting boost for Sorcs. It is a gift to balance against Wizzies also getting flexibility of spell choice in the SP system.

MysticTheurge
12-23-2007, 06:01 PM
Remember too, that Sorcs also gain spell level flexibility in a SP system. It's not just Wiz and Clerics who get all the benefits.

Right, that's why I said that sorcerers get an increase in power too, it's just not as much of an increase as wizards and clerics get.


And you are continually forgetting the fast casting boost for Sorcs. It is a gift to balance against Wizzies also getting flexibility of spell choice in the SP system.

I'm not forgetting it. I keep mentioning it. And I keep mentioning that it's a decent balance for the flexibility that the SP system adds to the wizard.

But it can't then also be a balancing factor for wizards getting more spells and sorcerers getting fewer spells. Unless you really think it's that powerful. In which case, I suppose, we simply disagree.

GlassCannon
12-24-2007, 03:40 AM
Yes, but you're comparing those two things in a vacuum without viewing how they differ from D&D.

If you're going to compare the two classes wholly in DDO, you need to compare them fully.

How much of an advantage is the Wizards 3 (soon to be 4) free metamagic feats?
How will this play out at higher levels where wizards will (and should) have more higher level spells than sorcerers?

Honestly, guys, that's what I'm not getting. No one's saying sorcerers should have more spells than wizards across the board. In fact, they shouldn't. But they should have 1 more first and second level spell slot (heck, wizards can keep their 5 slots for all I care). This should be more than made up for by the fact that they can't ever get more than 3 spells of 6th through 9th level where the wizard can get 4.

The difference in metamagics being free is GIGANTIC. What makes it even worse is their spell versatility. You can't make something better by just making it stronger to balance it with something more flexible and versatile. That's like giving a go-kart a V-12 to balance it out with an All-Terrain Vehicle. There simply is no balance in "more spellpoints to pointlessly use the wrong slepp over and over with!" and "They cast those pointless spells faster too!".

All in all Wizards are getting more than their fair share here. Clerics have felt nerf after nerf and Sorcerers are now feeling the brutal pinch.

Eventually everyone will play a wizard, because, face it... they are the most loved class in all of D&D(free feats... versatility... extra this, extra that... don't have difficulty with metamagics...).

I'd like everyone to stop calling for a nerf to the already quite well nerfed sorcs.

To balance sorcs I think they ought to get free Spell Focus feats(in addition to 5 spell slots for all levels).

drachine
12-24-2007, 07:06 AM
To balance sorcs I think they ought to get free Spell Focus feats(in addition to 5 spell slots for all levels).

That's just crazy powerful chief. The original point of the post was 5 first level spells and five 2nd level spells the way the PnP rules state. At least their is a basis for that. There is no basis for just giving additional spells or feats per level at all levels for sorcerers.

They should stick to the existing list. I don't think that would make the classes equal in the long run, but they are not supposed to be. Bring the 1st and 2nd level spells (5 of each) is simply the rules of the game. That's the point of this post.

In line with that, clerics should get spells bonuses for high wisdom and so on. It's a good thing that DDO is based on DnD, otherwise anyone could change anything however they see fit. It's not going to be totally the same obviously, but the rules have worked for the game for years, long before DDO was around. They should stick to them.

Jay203
12-24-2007, 08:25 PM
well, i'll say give the sorcs their extra spell slots
however, in return, they don't get to swap out spells like they currently can.
if you want the PnP way, you get all the ups and downs, not just the pros

Emili
12-25-2007, 01:07 AM
well, i'll say give the sorcs their extra spell slots
however, in return, they don't get to swap out spells like they currently can.
if you want the PnP way, you get all the ups and downs, not just the pros


The swap out is a mechanism though to compensate for

changes to spells

Turbine modify spells occasionaly thus the power and results of said spells value changes. ie.) solid fog - near worthless nowcompared to other cc spells.

changes to the game environment

New content places the value of a spell as do changes to old content being modified. ie.) new mob immunities

Diversity for the capped toon.

Sorc and bard are allowed to swap lower level spells at every level up in PnP... however since you're capped you cannot do this until the next cap raise, thus you're making someone wait a long long time to change something - even though they pretty much had virtually ran enough quest (tossed time/xp away) where they could have switched it months back had the cap been 20.



I point this out because it falls in line with the respec systems... prior to the respec for spells I have seen people continually re-roll bards and sorcs constantly as they leveled, I also seen people re-roll every class before the respec system... I've also seen people get so frustrated with not being able to adjust to the changes in the game that they quit rather than re-roll <- prior to respec systems.

GlassCannon
12-25-2007, 02:24 AM
Jay, as Emili just pointed out: Any time you put an ever changing environment around someone, then put them in a set one-time-only setup iron-walled-prison, they feel caged and leave. It's simple. Do not confine people. They will leave rather than accept things as they are.

Why must so many utterly hate Sorcs so much?

GlassCannon
12-25-2007, 02:26 AM
That's just crazy powerful chief. The original point of the post was 5 first level spells and five 2nd level spells the way the PnP rules state. At least their is a basis for that. There is no basis for just giving additional spells or feats per level at all levels for sorcerers.

They should stick to the existing list. I don't think that would make the classes equal in the long run, but they are not supposed to be. Bring the 1st and 2nd level spells (5 of each) is simply the rules of the game. That's the point of this post.

In line with that, clerics should get spells bonuses for high wisdom and so on. It's a good thing that DDO is based on DnD, otherwise anyone could change anything however they see fit. It's not going to be totally the same obviously, but the rules have worked for the game for years, long before DDO was around. They should stick to them.

D&D cannot fit into an MMO format at this current point in technological progress. Turbine is trying to put an entire universe into a tiny little box that runs very very slow. Literally.

As for 'crazy powerful'... I was thinking one free spell focus(not greater) per 8 levels.

Emili
12-25-2007, 02:50 AM
Jay, as Emili just pointed out: Any time you put an ever changing environment around someone, then put them in a set one-time-only setup iron-walled-prison, they feel caged and leave. It's simple. Do not confine people. They will leave rather than accept things as they are.

Why must so many utterly hate Sorcs so much?

I do not think they hate the sorc so much ... but rather experience the power influx differences between it and the other classes.
The major problem with DDO is the wide shifts in class power which changes dramatically from cap to cap and with every patch. DDO poises problems in a number of ways due to enhancement lines based on class and race supporting and pigeon-holing the function of such classes. In example the elemental spells currently rank among the highest dps output for caster classes, the versitily of a wizard switching out fireball or cone of cold for an acid spell or electric spell is not so significantly helpful to them in a quest when thier enhancement line is spec'd hard elemental. Couple that with the fact they are often expected or even sometimes demanded to support in more of a utility role via buffs and carry less SP and slower casting they are not in position to be feel they contribute as much in a mmo since the idea behind it is to eliminate the mob. This is the general feel of the average wizard as I've experienced over the course of two years.

In fact I had a discussion about this thread with a guildie just an hour ago... he pretty much laughed about it stating that his main - a wizard - is a disappointment to him as his sorc is nearing his wizard's level and is such a better casting class... basically stating he feels much more useful in quests on his sorc then he ever had on his wizard.

I've always had been more melee oriented - I've two fighters, a bard, a barbarian, a pally, a cleric, ranger and a multi classed ranger/rogue... I wanted to roll a true arcane caster so I asked the casters of the guild - about 50 people, hands the largest percentage told me roll sorc. These were people who had experience with both classes. I rolled a wizard however because my best friend told me - roll a wizard to get used to it and to play with the spells but when you feel comfortable - shelf it and roll a sorc. To me that tells me a lot of what the attitude towards the arcane classes are among the general community.

We see a lot of threads up here about nerf them and empower me... this is because of the ever changing landscape of the game environment and tools of each class - not to say DDO should remain stagnant, however it seems to me that even though the devs seem to try to balance things out a tad... we've no clue of it's real impact until it's put into practice.

I and quite a few people agree they should adhere to the sorc's spell slots as per DnD. However, I do not forsee the free meta-magic feat slots of a wizard and it's ability to switch out spells as near an equivalent value as the sorc's quick cooldown and higher sp pool.

GlassCannon
12-25-2007, 03:37 AM
Fast cooldowns are not as effectually beneficial as one might think when alternative rotational spells can be used. I would like to see more spells added to the game for the sole purpose of the wizard vs sorcerer theme to show its true colors and start really making some progress.

I am raising an acid/lightning sorceress and she is amazingly powerful. At level 9 she fired off a critical Melf's Acid Arrow that hit for 85 damage, and was extended. Had it dealt 85 damage per 2 seconds for 72 seconds(that's 36x85), and the skeleton archer actually had 3,000 HP, she would have dealt a full 3,060 damage with less than 100 SP at level 9. Granted, that would require lots of tactical fleeing like a crazed lunatic to pull off with most monsters out there(don't even think about running from a Wheep.. NOTHING gets away from those broken b*stards, even chars spec'd for moving like greased lightning can't escape the endless unblockable hits that bypass all AC), and it would also have required the spell to continue to roll high damage totals(in my combat log it showed the damage dropped to the 30's and 50's), but that's still a LOT of damage.

No, I don't have a wizard yet. I don't have the char slots for it. No, I'm not rerolling until the devs make a reroll button like Kargon requested. Some of them just have too much raid loot(and odd +2 tomes applied) to delete.

Mad_Bombardier
12-25-2007, 10:26 AM
I'm not forgetting it. I keep mentioning it. And I keep mentioning that it's a decent balance for the flexibility that the SP system adds to the wizard.

But it can't then also be a balancing factor for wizards getting more spells and sorcerers getting fewer spells. Unless you really think it's that powerful. In which case, I suppose, we simply disagree.Then, there is the added benefit of fast casting with metamagics. And that is balanced by Sorcs getting less spells. Take away fast cast on metamagicked spells and you can add Sorc spell slots. But, of course, at that point, you Sorcs and Wizzies become too similar (except for difference in SP pool). So, leave it with less spells for Sorcs with their current benefits.

jkm
12-25-2007, 11:52 AM
as someone with 3 sorcs, there are a lot of mechanics in the game that conspire to defeat the versatility of a wizard.

for crowd control:
sorcs don't have the slots to carry much in the way of crowd control, so spells such as solid fog were always a big conundrum for a sorc (do i scroll sf or stoneskin). most of us just scrolled them so removing them from the vendors would have been a fairly crippling move. however, not only did they remove them but the nerfed the **** out of their duration making them pretty much useless in most player's eyes. heck, it often took 5 repeats of the words 'fight in the fog guys' before the nerf to actually get people to do it, now the fog is gone before the 3rd statement.

for utility:
it isn't a secret that 4th level spells are an absolute crunch on sorcs so the choice between stoneskin, pk, solid fog, ddoor, firewall, fear, and enervate used to be a 'okay, which do i scroll'. taking ddoor out of the brokers has forced most of us to take it as a spell as the scrolls drop about as a rarely as a vorpal. once again, nerfing the duration of solid fog made it an easy choice of spells to drop instead of making me sit at the sorc trainer for an hour figuring out which spell i could do without.

for direct damage:

what kills wizzy versatility here is that in order to be effective against mobs you need to invest a ton of points into a damage line. most sorcs skate by this with fire/ice and disintegrate for everything else.

in general:

to me, the thing that absolutely kills wizzies overall is the ddo method of handling spell resistance. the extra wizzie feats really mean nothing when sorcs are able to bypass spell resistance with brute force instead of having to waste feats/enhancements on spell penetration instead of metamagics.

another fact that kills them is how bad the summoned pets are. holy ****, they are bad.

some thoughts for making wizzies more versatile:

double the current time on the lingering spells so that solid fog and the like become a valid spell choice again. this will bring back crowd control into the game and once again give spell swappers a choice. yank all of the lingering spells out of the brokers and wizzies become important.

change the wizzy damage enhancement lines (not the critical lines)
so instead of wizard fire/ice 1 through 4
wizard fire/ice 1 (2 aps) for 20%
wizard fire/ice 2 (4 aps) for 40%

this would allow them to spread more damage across more lines and allows for swappage to make sense from a damage perspective

MysticTheurge
12-25-2007, 09:13 PM
Then, there is the added benefit of fast casting with metamagics. And that is balanced by Sorcs getting less spells. Take away fast cast on metamagicked spells and you can add Sorc spell slots. But, of course, at that point, you Sorcs and Wizzies become too similar (except for difference in SP pool). So, leave it with less spells for Sorcs with their current benefits.

Bringing metamagics into the equation is kind of a moot point because they're ridiculously broken for all spellcasters. :rolleyes:

I'll take slow metamagic casting on sorcerers just as soon as wizards have to prepare metamagic'ed spells in advance and use a higher spell slot to do so.

Jay203
12-26-2007, 10:41 AM
The swap out is a mechanism though to compensate for

changes to spells

Turbine modify spells occasionaly thus the power and results of said spells value changes. ie.) solid fog - near worthless nowcompared to other cc spells.

changes to the game environment

New content places the value of a spell as do changes to old content being modified. ie.) new mob immunities

Diversity for the capped toon.

Sorc and bard are allowed to swap lower level spells at every level up in PnP... however since you're capped you cannot do this until the next cap raise, thus you're making someone wait a long long time to change something - even though they pretty much had virtually ran enough quest (tossed time/xp away) where they could have switched it months back had the cap been 20.



I point this out because it falls in line with the respec systems... prior to the respec for spells I have seen people continually re-roll bards and sorcs constantly as they leveled, I also seen people re-roll every class before the respec system... I've also seen people get so frustrated with not being able to adjust to the changes in the game that they quit rather than re-roll <- prior to respec systems.


well, nothing is ever going to satisfy everyone in a MMO that will continuously put out new contents. Although the rate Sorcs get to change spells are a lot more often than they were supposed to in the first place. I'm not saying that designers should revert back to the actual D&D rule which forces the Sorcs to stick with their spells until they lvl up, bur more along the lines of longer waiting time to change spells. (i do mean MUCH longer waiting time, if someone wants to experiment with spells, they should have gone with wizard first. Sorcs are meant to be rolled by people who knows what kind of spells they want and are willing to stick with it.)
just my 2 lumps of coal (those stupid slot-consuming "rewards" rawr~!)

drachine
12-26-2007, 04:26 PM
the 5 spell slot issue for 1st and 2nd level spell is a negligible change for the sorcerer. the truth is, the more spell that are introduced into the game, and every mod there are more spells, the more the wizard looks like a better option then the sorcerer. in PnP there is no question because there are so many spells, it's ridiculous. to be locked into a few is a huge drawback no matter how fast you can cast them. having a few spells just sucks.

maybe not as bad as PnP, but we are already running into instances where you would prefer a spell that sorcerers generally don't carry. Dimension Door are good examples Tumble. i'm not going to waste my dimension door scrolls on anything but a raid or avoiding death penalty. sorcerers are cool, but they are going to find themselves in that position of "Do you have XXXX?" and they will have to say "No". wizards will make a comeback.

Seneca_Windforge
12-27-2007, 12:36 AM
the 5 spell slot issue for 1st and 2nd level spell is a negligible change for the sorcerer. the truth is, the more spell that are introduced into the game, and every mod there are more spells, the more the wizard looks like a better option then the sorcerer. in PnP there is no question because there are so many spells, it's ridiculous. to be locked into a few is a huge drawback no matter how fast you can cast them. having a few spells just sucks.

maybe not as bad as PnP, but we are already running into instances where you would prefer a spell that sorcerers generally don't carry. Dimension Door are good examples Tumble. i'm not going to waste my dimension door scrolls on anything but a raid or avoiding death penalty. sorcerers are cool, but they are going to find themselves in that position of "Do you have XXXX?" and they will have to say "No". wizards will make a comeback.

The thing is though, sorcerers *should* have to make hard choices -- that's one of the disadvantages you get for having 50% more spell points and faster casting speed. Wizards *should* be able to pull out spells like Greater Teleport, Dimension Door, and other stuff that Sorcerers don't have room for. I think there's a lot to be said for the fact that Sorcerers can more easily unload spells like Finger of Death and Phantasmal Killer over and over rapidly during the quest.

Also, many of the new spells that have been (or will be) introduced for already existing spell levels (ie Ooze Puppet, Master's Touch, Merfolk's Blessing) just aren't All That. I mean, it would be nice to load up Merfolk's Blessing for a swimming boost for the Crucible, but again -- the ability to do that is an advantage to being a Wizard.

Basically, do you want to be able to cast a few spells over and over quickly, or do you want to have a more limited SP pool but have the ability to easily cast a wide variety of spells? Choose your arcane class accordingly.

drachine
12-27-2007, 01:19 PM
Also, many of the new spells that have been (or will be) introduced for already existing spell levels (ie Ooze Puppet, Master's Touch, Merfolk's Blessing) just aren't All That.

I agree. Sorcerers should make the hard choices. But there is a rules precedent for expecting that sorcerers should get 5 1st and 5 2nd levels spells listed at the beginning of the thread and in the rules. And many of the spells in DDO, do not have much use yet so it's not a problem. I don't think this will always be the case. Also, we have already seen hints that more will be introduced. Some possibilities are:

1ST-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.
Chromatic Orb: Summons orbs of varying hue that can be hurled at opponents with varying effects.
Color Spray: Knocks unconscious, blinds, and/or stuns weak creatures.
Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Reduce Person: Humanoid creature halves in size.

2ND-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Choke: Spectral hands appear around the throak of the victim causing damage unless they save, die or the duration expires.
Protection from Arrows: Subject immune to most ranged attacks.
Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Hideous Laughter: Subject loses actions for 1 round/level.
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Mirror Image: Creates decoy duplicates of you (1d4 +1 per three levels, max 8).
Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction.
Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or choking smoke.
Rope Trick: As many as eight creatures hide in extradimensional space.
Spider Climb: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.

Also, DDO keeps inventing spells that aren't even in PnP as we have seen. So this list could be doubled or tripled.

Meanwhile, sorcerers are still stuck at 4 1st and 4 2nd level spells when the rules state they should have 5. Allowing sorcs to choose Color Spray and Mirror Image really isn't going to change the balance of the game.

Wizards on the other hand will be able to cast any of these spells as the situation calls for. And they should. Keep in mind, that higher level spells will be introduced as well that sorcerers will not have either. And the trend is that scrolls won't be as available or useful in the future, which I agree with as well.

Just sayin, give sorcs their 5 1st and 5 2nd levels at the appropriate level like the PnP rules state they should have.

jkm
12-27-2007, 01:33 PM
don't forget keen edge :mad:

Soul-Shaker
12-27-2007, 04:12 PM
Asp, go look at the PnP rule books or the online 3.5 srd.

A 20th level sorc should have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for his/her spells.

A 20th level wizard should have 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for his/her spells.

So it looks like the sorcerors are following the wizard known spell table. If that's the case then sorcerors will end up with more spells at higher levels than they would in PnP which is fine with me.

My original question was this - Have we played with the system for so long that it doesn't really bother us or did everyone not realized the difference between PnP and DDO?

That is list of spells known of a sorcs known spells vs wizards spells per day and spells known vs spell known. Also PnP wizards dont have spontanous casting so instead of letting them cast from there entire spell book in DDO they let them cast from a higher list. IE not having extend on but clicking on haste which is liked with extend and casts a extended haste and does not toggle on extend.

Also a 20th lvl wizard lets say with 26 int pnp spells known (choosing different spell per spell per day).
Bonus spells for 26 int
2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1
Total list
6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4

As you can see, a wizard actually can mem much more different spells per day vs sorcs known spells. Also there are more feats to increase the number of spells per day which can increase a wizards spell selection even more per day.

I also consider sorcs losing from pnp conversion over the deal of metamagics. Why do I say that, because a sorc can spontaneous cast with or without metamagics instantly while a wizard must have it prepared. I hope they give sorcs in DDO one day the option to link metamagics to a spell to make it more spontaneous.

I also hope that we can one day place lower level spells in a higher slot(but wont increase benefits due to slot used). IE FW in the fifth level slot but its still considered a 4th lvl spell and not a 5th.

GlassCannon
12-28-2007, 03:56 AM
Just sayin, give sorcs their 5 1st and 5 2nd levels at the appropriate level like the PnP rules state they should have.

Since the devs keep inventing cool spells, why not be at least somewhat fair and give 5 slots to all levels for a sorc? Just drop a little more SP in the wizard's bucket for his/her INT modifier and we're balanced.

I will say it again and again and again.

The SRD...

is outdated.

oronisi
12-28-2007, 08:25 AM
Since the devs keep inventing cool spells, why not be at least somewhat fair and give 5 slots to all levels for a sorc? Just drop a little more SP in the wizard's bucket for his/her INT modifier and we're balanced.

I will say it again and again and again.

The SRD...

is outdated.

Ok, sorcs can have 5 spell slots per level if wizards get 2000 sp and double usage from sp items.

Honestly, have you sorcs played a wizard?? Their casting is slow, their spellpoint pool is abysmal compared to sorcs, we don't get 400 sp from skiver....and the 'flexibility' of being able to swap out spells is nothing. I hardly ever need to swap out my spells. I have like 3 'flex slots' that I shift around, and that's it. If I could only swap spells once every 3 days, that would not change a damn thing for me on my wiz. It would just be a mild inconvenience.

So as I see it, the ONLY benefits wizards have are 3 metamagic feats and more spell slots. While sorcs have faster casting, 40% more spellpoints, and double the benefit from sp items. So I'd have to ask, why are you trying to take away one of the wizards only benefits??

Aspenor
12-28-2007, 09:14 AM
The SRD...

is not fully applicable to DDO.

My opinion ;)

Just because it's in the PnP rulebook doesn't mean it is best for DDO balance.

Turbine has balanced wizards and sorcerers very well, IMHO. A wizard determines the best spell for a situation, and maximizes his effectiveness via versatility. A sorcerer powers through.

Spell slots don't need to be adjusted, they are fine as-is, coming from a highly experienced wizard AND sorceror.

In fact wizards could actually use a bit of a boost. More spell selection would be very nice, and would increase the usefulness of a wizard. Right now, there are only a few useful spells per level, making sorcerors with more SP and faster casting rule the roost.

MysticTheurge
12-28-2007, 11:42 PM
In fact wizards could actually use a bit of a boost. More spell selection would be very nice, and would increase the usefulness of a wizard. Right now, there are only a few useful spells per level, making sorcerors with more SP and faster casting rule the roost.

Honestly, before more spells, I'd say more metamagics.

The 4 metamagics that wizards get for free could be a really big weight on their side of the scale, if there were more than a couple metamagics that anyone needed/wanted.