PDA

View Full Version : Monks: A constructive yet critical request



tekn0mage
12-19-2007, 04:29 AM
Ever notice that a common response we get to development requests seem to fall along the line of .. "the game engine was not really designed for that" or "that's not what we had in mind when the game was first planned out"? See discussion on mounts, pets, monks, etc.

Just seems a little like the signs of either A) a really poor engine implementation or B) a real "can't do" attitude, or, and I sincerely hope it isn't C) a tactic used to stall something because it's "too tough"

How about we hear something encouraging for a change? I have an idea. Specifically regarding Monks, why are there no Dev Diaries about the challenges that you had to overcome to implement them? Instead of telling us what you CAN'T do, how about SHOWING us what you CAN do?

I hate to say it, but without showing us some of the challenges you face, we're never really going to take your word for it. Especially given all the let-downs since this game launched. Some videos and some dev diaries regarding the implementation and the artwork and coding involved with Monks would go a LONG way in revitalizing some interest in what the devs do.

At any rate, I think the devs are really going to have to start justifying some of these delays. We're told they are coming 2 years ago, and there's no indication that work has even begun yet. So what did you know 2 years ago that led you to tell us they were Coming Soon(tm)? And at what point did that change? These are all things that should be documented and diary-worthy so that we, as laypeople could actually understand more about what goes on when implementing a tough piece of work.

Just thought I'd leave a constructive/critical sandwich before bed. Peace.

Yaga_Nub
12-19-2007, 09:29 AM
Not worth the comment.

redoubt
12-19-2007, 10:00 AM
I'm torn...

Do I want them to make "Dev Diaries: the making of DDO" or just spend their time actually making the game and update us with the WDAs they are already doing... hmmm....

I've certainly enjoyed Codog's time on the forum and its neat to know stuff. But passing information to us (the gamers) is time consuming and dangerous. Dangerous, because if they tell us what they are having trouble with, 50 know-it-alls will tell them they could program it for them and ask if they should fly out to Turbine to fix it for them. Am I bummed that mod 6 is not out in December? Sure. I've been plotting what I'm going to do for close to 6 months like the rest of the DDO junkies out there.

So, if the forum/community folks have time to find and format such information for us, then sure. I'd prefer the programer types keep doing their thing.

adamkatt
12-19-2007, 10:09 AM
We just need carbon copies of all the ken/ryu moves and monks will be set!

Pellegro
12-19-2007, 10:59 AM
Just seems a little like the signs of ... B) a real "can't do" attitude [on part of Devs], or, ... a tactic used [by devs] to stall something because it's "too tough" ....

... [W]ithout showing us some of the challenges you face, we're never really going to take your [Turbine's] word for it. Especially given all the let-downs since this game launched. ....

I think the devs are really going to have to start justifying some of these delays.

Just what we need, more bashing. Lovely. I'm sure any reasonable human will read this and say, "hey, I want him on my team!". GJ.

GeneralDiomedes
12-19-2007, 11:18 AM
I would like to know what the 'big holdup' really is. Is there some massive balancing issue that threatens to throw the DDO planes out of alignment? What I really think it is however, is that prior timelines were given based on development resources available at the time, but those resources are smaller now. They were eventually forced to make a choice between content now and monks later. If that is the case, I believe they definately made the right choice. After hearing about The Shroud, Mod 6 is looking up for sheer amount of content. I hope I don't have to eat those words.

tekn0mage
12-19-2007, 11:31 AM
I'm being as constructive as I can :D

But yes, I distinctly recall Dev Diaries being a part of their normal process during launch. If you think about it, even if they focused 100% solely on the Monks and abandoned the idea of a Dev Diary, it's not going to make that much of a difference when they get released. It's already been 2 years, it's going to be another 4-6 months, WHO CARES if documenting the process adds another few weeks to it?

It would, at the very least, allow us a glimpse into what really goes on behind the scenes. Like I said, to me its about justification. What's *really* the hold up here? Plus, it would allow the community to see part of the process and would lead to less questioning of dev's efforts in the future.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-19-2007, 11:40 AM
I would like to know what the 'big holdup' really is.

AoC.

GeneralDiomedes
12-19-2007, 11:46 AM
AoC.

Sounds reasonable. AoC gets pushed back, Monks get pushed back. Are we going to get 'finishing moves' too? :D

Yaga_Nub
12-19-2007, 12:32 PM
Stop with the F'in Monks!

There is a small subset of people that want monks compared to the overall population.

For every person that wants Monks, there is another person that cares more about something else.

I want to know when I can polymorph into a friggin' shark with a lazer on my head.

I want to know when my spell resistance will work correctly.

I want to know when I get my animal companions.

I want to know when I get to summon other elementals than just earth.

I want to know the "cheat" codes that the devs used to beat the Abbott.

I want to know why I haven't been given divine status and allowed to summon mobs in the pvp pit at will.

I want to know why the Practiced Spellcaster (spelling? correct name?) feat hasn't been put in yet.

I want to know why Mobility only gives a bonus when Tumbling.

I want to know why everyone wants half-orcs in the game when they all know that all the sexiness will be drained from the game as soon as that happens.

I want to know why the Widen Spell feat isn't in the game.

I want to know why I can't find any mithral scale or banded mail.

I want to know why the Halt Undead Spell fix hasn't made it into the WDA even though a dev said it would be fixed for Mod 6.

See there are a ton of things that other people may want to talk about than frickin' Monks so stop with the Monk threads. PLEASE.

BTW I want to know when Monks are going to be put in so I can get my wisdom bonus to AC. :)

EinarMal
12-19-2007, 12:38 PM
I am not sure, my money is monks just don't fit in very well power wise in a monty haul type system. Unarmed combat or +5 Uber Sword of Holy Kicking the **** Out Of You...why yes I will dual wield them....

Monks will be a good splash class for evasion and wisdom to AC, other than that I am not sure.

Drider
12-19-2007, 12:45 PM
AoC.


You mean that game that was going to have this awesome real time combat engine, that they had so many problems with, that they revamped it to be even more similar to WoW's?

GuitarHero
12-19-2007, 06:06 PM
You mean that game that was going to have this awesome real time combat engine, that they had so many problems with, that they revamped it to be even more similar to WoW's?

yup, that'd be the one, :D

GlassCannon
12-20-2007, 02:07 AM
Not worth the comment.

Then why did you post? Just move along... lurk moar.

Yaga_Nub
12-20-2007, 07:51 AM
Then why did you post? Just move along... lurk moar.

I did post and then realized I was being very critical of tek and making a lot of jokes at his expense which isn't very conducive to a construtive conversation.

So go jump in a lake.

Aerostorm
01-08-2008, 12:22 PM
The game devs should do a better job of updating the status of long promised game improvements. Monks and Druids are a good example of science projects that have been kicked around for over a year now. Considring the fact that you can't readily find a copy of DDO in the stores anymore, a diary of what is happening might give us hope and keep a few players still active, vs shutting off accounts until mod 6.

Oh by the way, it would not take more than one person to maintain the diary. This person does not even have to be a sofware code writer. all they need is a person who attends the meetings of the devs, who can tkae notes, and post the releasable information. This is done all the time in industry, it is called public affairs.

Nice thread and I hope we will see something out of it.

Turial
01-08-2008, 12:27 PM
The game devs should do a better job of updating the status of long promised game improvements. Monks and Druids are a good example of science projects that have been kicked around for over a year now. Considring the fact that you can't readily find a copy of DDO in the stores anymore, a diary of what is happening might give us hope and keep a few players still active, vs shutting off accounts until mod 6.

Oh by the way, it would not take more than one person to maintain the diary. This person does not even have to be a sofware code writer. all they need is a person who attends the meetings of the devs, who can tkae notes, and post the releasable information. This is done all the time in industry, it is called public affairs.

Nice thread and I hope we will see something out of it.

You mean some one like Q or Tolero?

Vizzini
01-08-2008, 12:29 PM
Not worth a comment.


Stop with the F'in Monks!

There is a small subset of people that want monks compared to the overall population.

For every person that wants Monks, there is another person that cares more about something else.

I want to know when I can polymorph into a friggin' shark with a lazer on my head.

I want to know when my spell resistance will work correctly.

I want to know when I get my animal companions.

I want to know when I get to summon other elementals than just earth.

I want to know the "cheat" codes that the devs used to beat the Abbott.

I want to know why I haven't been given divine status and allowed to summon mobs in the pvp pit at will.

I want to know why the Practiced Spellcaster (spelling? correct name?) feat hasn't been put in yet.

I want to know why Mobility only gives a bonus when Tumbling.

I want to know why everyone wants half-orcs in the game when they all know that all the sexiness will be drained from the game as soon as that happens.

I want to know why the Widen Spell feat isn't in the game.

I want to know why I can't find any mithral scale or banded mail.

I want to know why the Halt Undead Spell fix hasn't made it into the WDA even though a dev said it would be fixed for Mod 6.

See there are a ton of things that other people may want to talk about than frickin' Monks so stop with the Monk threads. PLEASE.

BTW I want to know when Monks are going to be put in so I can get my wisdom bonus to AC. :)

Vizzini
01-08-2008, 12:30 PM
/signed


Ever notice that a common response we get to development requests seem to fall along the line of .. "the game engine was not really designed for that" or "that's not what we had in mind when the game was first planned out"? See discussion on mounts, pets, monks, etc.

Just seems a little like the signs of either A) a really poor engine implementation or B) a real "can't do" attitude, or, and I sincerely hope it isn't C) a tactic used to stall something because it's "too tough"

How about we hear something encouraging for a change? I have an idea. Specifically regarding Monks, why are there no Dev Diaries about the challenges that you had to overcome to implement them? Instead of telling us what you CAN'T do, how about SHOWING us what you CAN do?

I hate to say it, but without showing us some of the challenges you face, we're never really going to take your word for it. Especially given all the let-downs since this game launched. Some videos and some dev diaries regarding the implementation and the artwork and coding involved with Monks would go a LONG way in revitalizing some interest in what the devs do.

At any rate, I think the devs are really going to have to start justifying some of these delays. We're told they are coming 2 years ago, and there's no indication that work has even begun yet. So what did you know 2 years ago that led you to tell us they were Coming Soon(tm)? And at what point did that change? These are all things that should be documented and diary-worthy so that we, as laypeople could actually understand more about what goes on when implementing a tough piece of work.

Just thought I'd leave a constructive/critical sandwich before bed. Peace.

Hendrik
01-08-2008, 01:17 PM
Just what we need, more bashing. Lovely. I'm sure any reasonable human will read this and say, "hey, I want him on my team!". GJ.

QFT

llevenbaxx
01-08-2008, 01:46 PM
I wonder how much more core material they could have fit in the game if they hadnt bothered creating, updating, balancing around and adding to the enhancement system? PILE ON!!:)

tekn0mage
01-08-2008, 04:07 PM
Don't forget fixing Stormcleave 8 times and I'm not even sure how many times they've tweaked the Titan.

Death penalty changes (all 3 revisions of it), enhancements, low-level missions, mission nerfs (Caravan nerf amidst 6 days of downtime, anyone?)... yadda blah yadda blah.

You see, the line called patience was drawn a long time ago. It was also crossed a long time ago. There's no sense being "patient" any more because it is obvious that without some MORE people leaving the game, Turbine isn't going to get the message.

MOD5 failed to capture people's attention and keep them hooked. MOD6 is being so frantically developed, I don't see how they could include even 50% of what we want out of a module. We shall see.

GlassCannon
01-09-2008, 03:12 AM
Hey now be fair. They didn't nerf the missions. They nerfed the LOOT.

As for the rest of the thread, typical trolling.

Cireeric
01-09-2008, 08:47 AM
Don't forget fixing Stormcleave 8 times and I'm not even sure how many times they've tweaked the Titan.

Death penalty changes (all 3 revisions of it), enhancements, low-level missions, mission nerfs (Caravan nerf amidst 6 days of downtime, anyone?)... yadda blah yadda blah.

You see, the line called patience was drawn a long time ago. It was also crossed a long time ago. There's no sense being "patient" any more because it is obvious that without some MORE people leaving the game, Turbine isn't going to get the message.

MOD5 failed to capture people's attention and keep them hooked. MOD6 is being so frantically developed, I don't see how they could include even 50% of what we want out of a module. We shall see.

Help send Turbine a message and lead by your own example.

aldan
01-09-2008, 11:01 AM
The Monks should really be Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) specialists. Would be cool if you could pick your style.

The other style could be Shaolin Temple Style (Northern Praying Mantis)

MysticTheurge
01-09-2008, 11:10 AM
Would be cool if you could pick your style.

I'm still kind of hoping they can implement this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les).

Grond
01-09-2008, 12:22 PM
I'm still kind of hoping they can implement this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les).

Seems like the enhancement system would work for incorporating this sort of thing.

unionyes
01-09-2008, 01:01 PM
Look, I said MONTHS ago that I wanted my half orc assassin. Still not there, instead all this talk about monks, gnomes, druids, horses, and the like. What is the hold up?!?!?!?!? Gimme Gimme Gimme!!!!!!

In all honesty, I still haven't done a ton of the current content. I have a 14 sorc, and a few others that I am levelling, so I am either not uber enough to be bored with current options as I still have tons of fun playtime ahead of me maxing out my tank, bard, rogue, then maybe a wizzie and a more serious shot at a cleric, or I have a slightly different outlook here. There are so many things that I haven't tried yet that are available, I am not overly concerned about new races and classes, but that's just me.

Although I would gladly reroll my current rogue project to make a half orc cleric assassin ;)

Vizzini
01-09-2008, 01:11 PM
That's a little harsh don't you think?


Help send Turbine a message and lead by your own example.

MysticTheurge
01-09-2008, 01:17 PM
That's a little harsh don't you think?

Would "Put your money where you mouth is" be less harsh?

Or what about "Lately you're really sounding more and more like one of those shills companies hire to go trash the competition on their own boards. Maybe you could try providing actual, useful criticism for this game you allegedly love instead of just spending every single post badmouthing it."

Yaga_Nub
01-09-2008, 01:31 PM
Would "Put your money where you mouth is" be less harsh?

Or what about "Lately you're really sounding more and more like one of those shills companies hire to go trash the competition on their own boards. Maybe you could try providing actual, useful criticism for this game you allegedly love instead of just spending every single post badmouthing it."

:D

Vizzini
01-09-2008, 01:42 PM
I don't really see how his stating an OPINION about people leaving the game, and turbine not fulfilling requests in a timely manner has anything to do with him 1. being a troll and 2. Why him leaving the game should be stated as "Follow your own example".. The only thing your post and Yaga's for that matter are doing is inciting a flame war. Next time why not just leave that junk out of the posts?



Would "Put your money where you mouth is" be less harsh?

Or what about "Lately you're really sounding more and more like one of those shills companies hire to go trash the competition on their own boards. Maybe you could try providing actual, useful criticism for this game you allegedly love instead of just spending every single post badmouthing it."

For Reference.


You see, the line called patience was drawn a long time ago. It was also crossed a long time ago. There's no sense being "patient" any more because it is obvious that without some MORE people leaving the game, Turbine isn't going to get the message.

MOD5 failed to capture people's attention and keep them hooked. MOD6 is being so frantically developed, I don't see how they could include even 50% of what we want out of a module. We shall see.

MysticTheurge
01-09-2008, 01:45 PM
I don't really see how his stating an OPINION about people leaving the game, and turbine not fulfilling requests in a timely manner has anything to do with him 1. being a troll

No. That one post doesn't make him a troll. Being a troll takes a much larger effort than just one post.


2. Why him leaving the game should be stated as "Follow your own example"..

Your easy reference makes this simpler. Please tell me how "follow your own advice" isn't an appropriate response to this statement:

There's no sense being "patient" any more because it is obvious that without some MORE people leaving the game, Turbine isn't going to get the message.

Vizzini
01-09-2008, 01:56 PM
It seems apparent to me at least that he is attempting to explain why his changes have not been made, he didn't put in a request for more people to leave the game - He simply stated that it's obvious to HIM that Turbine isn't going to change without more people leaving.

It serves no purpose for you to state that his leaving the game would help him make his point, all it does is cause conflict. Please see Tolero's post about constructive responses.


If you disagree with the opinion of another participant, that's fine, but no one can make anyone agree to their opinion. Thus, please refrain from commenting on the personal qualities of others who offer their responses to the question(s). Personal attacks go against forum guidelines. Questions asked will be subjective, and some users will have a lot related to their opinion, while others may only define things in short phrases. All forms are acceptable.
Hypothetical Example:
Tolero "Do you like ice cream?"
Player 1 "I hate ice cream because it's too tough to scoop"
Acceptable "I like it. It's not that bad to scoop once you let it sit on the counter for a little bit before you try to dip it Player 1."
Acceptable "I like it but I have the same problem as Player 1. What brand is it Player 1?"
Acceptable "I don't think it's too hard, I never have any problem with it. I like ice cream."
Unacceptable "That's cause you're a noob..."
Unacceptable "You don't have enough experience with scooping to be talking about how difficult it is"
Unacceptable "How about you back that opinion up with some numbers. If you can't prove it don't bring it here"

Everyone has the right to offer their response to the question(s), whether they have scientific data to back up their feelings, or they simply just "feel" a certain way towards the question(s).



Your easy reference makes this simpler. Please tell me how "follow your own advice" isn't an appropriate response to this statement:

There's no sense being "patient" any more because it is obvious that without some MORE people leaving the game, Turbine isn't going to get the message.




Also in response to one of your other posts earlier:



Or what about "Lately you're really sounding more and more like one of those shills companies hire to go trash the competition on their own boards. Maybe you could try providing actual, useful criticism for this game you allegedly love instead of just spending every single post badmouthing it."

It appears to me that he has made posts even thanking DDO for their service, and is obviously not badmouthing the game every time he turns around.


Open letter to all devs. I am very appreciative of the DDO engine upgrades.

My DNDCLIENT.EXE errors have all but ceased.

Ever since the server merge, I was plagued with dndclient crashes upon entering town-instances. Now after the merge, those problems are completely 100% gone. 5 crashes a day was the norm.

Can't thank you enough, as for me at least... this was the only thing I really enjoy about MOD5. But hey, at least there's something, right?

Vizzini
01-09-2008, 02:45 PM
I would hope if they do bother implementing Monks that they add the Variant Fighting Styles - Part of what makes Role Playing a monk so much fun ;)


I'm still kind of hoping they can implement this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les).

Yaga_Nub
01-09-2008, 03:45 PM
Next time why not just leave that junk out of the posts?

???

GeneralDiomedes
01-09-2008, 04:03 PM
I'm very intrigued by the theory that they will release Monks at the same time as AoC. That would be the smart thing to do as a competitor, explain why it keeps getting pushed back, and why they won't give an exact date (AoC has been pushed back multiple times).

Vizzini
01-09-2008, 04:55 PM
AoC? New Age of Camelot?

Forgive my newbness don't recognize the AoC acronym.


I'm very intrigued by the theory that they will release Monks at the same time as AoC. That would be the smart thing to do as a competitor, explain why it keeps getting pushed back, and why they won't give an exact date (AoC has been pushed back multiple times).

MysticTheurge
01-09-2008, 05:22 PM
AoC? New Age of Camelot?

Forgive my newbness don't recognize the AoC acronym.

Age of Conan.

Kire
01-09-2008, 08:19 PM
It appears to me that he has made posts even thanking DDO for their service, and is obviously not badmouthing the game every time he turns around.

Regarding your quote under that statement. I would call that a Backhanded compliment. For those of you that dont know what that means its a compliment with an insult in it. IE your so pretty im proud to call you a troll. see? after sifting out the sarcasm tek was saying:

Thanks for stopping my client from crashing , even though the rest of mod 5 sucked.

~Kire

Qzipoun
01-09-2008, 10:22 PM
Stop with the F'in Monks!

There is a small subset of people that want monks compared to the overall population.
....

I'm sorry man, you're missing the whole point of monks. Adding a new class to the game adds SO much replay value that it is incomparable to anything else in your list. Just think about all the builds with anywhere between 1 to 14 levels of rogue. Now imagine the rogue class never existed, every singly one of those builds would not exist... that's HUGE. The whole beauty of DDO is, no matter how much you play, there's always something you can do differently with a different character build or different playstyle. Adding a single class brings so much more diversity to the game, something that the other things you listed don't do.

re-edit: ignore the first edit :D

Pellegro
01-09-2008, 10:36 PM
I fully support any infraction points received by MT for his comments.

Indeed, I'm willing to take 50% of them myself.

I think he's a hired shill as well.

Does anyone actually play with him? I'd love to see posts of people who say he actually plays the game ....

llevenbaxx
01-10-2008, 07:40 AM
I'm sorry man, you're missing the whole point of monks. Adding a new class to the game adds SO much replay value that it is incomparable to anything else in your list. Just think about all the builds with anywhere between 1 to 14 levels of rogue. Now imagine the rogue class never existed, every singly one of those builds would not exist... that's HUGE. The whole beauty of DDO is, no matter how much you play, there's always something you can do differently with a different character build or different playstyle. Adding a single class brings so much more diversity to the game, something that the other things you listed don't do.



Agree 100%. As long as they keep adding different wrinkles to the game, there are those of us who will play through the same ol content just to experience them. My god, I couldnt even venture a guess at how many times I ran different party make-ups through Temple of Elemental Evil. That was not a large game by any means. Different party blends and character make-ups allowed for a slightly new experience every time. A little imagination required.

Yaga_Nub
01-10-2008, 09:20 AM
I'm sorry man, you're missing the whole point of monks. Adding a new class to the game adds SO much replay value that it is incomparable to anything else in your list. Just think about all the builds with anywhere between 1 to 14 levels of rogue. Now imagine the rogue class never existed, every singly one of those builds would not exist... that's HUGE. The whole beauty of DDO is, no matter how much you play, there's always something you can do differently with a different character build or different playstyle. Adding a single class brings so much more diversity to the game, something that the other things you listed don't do.

re-edit: ignore the first edit :D

Well you could just as easily say that about Half-elves and half-orcs. My point is that not everyone will make a monk when they are put in the game so that replay value is only there for those that do. Same with the new races and druids if they ever get put in.

So investing so much time and effort for something that is going to benefit only a small subset of the entire population may or may not be worth it. It certainly isn't worth, IMHO, 9,000,0000,000,534 threads on "GIVE ME MONKS!"

If you read the very last item in my OP I did say that I am looking forward to monks as well to get that wisdom bonus to armor for one of the MC builds.

MysticTheurge
01-10-2008, 09:24 AM
So investing so much time and effort for something that is going to benefit only a small subset of the entire population may or may not be worth it. It certainly isn't worth, IMHO, 9,000,0000,000,534 threads on "GIVE ME MONKS!"

It's certainly better than the 9,000,0000,000,535 threads going "ZOMG YOU SHOULD'VE DONE DRUIDS FIRST WE NEED MORE HEALERZ!!!" :rolleyes: