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Yaga_Nub
12-17-2007, 01:08 PM
I know there are a number of threads out there and I'm just really to lazy to look for them to see if there is already an answer for this.

I started a cleric (4th level 21 wis 14 cha) and I was playing around with turn undead.

In the combat log, something like this shows up (I'll get online when I get home and post some actually text for accuracy):

You roll to see your affect on undead. You roll a 20 and are able to affect up to 8 Hit Dice creatures.
You roll to see the number of undead you can affect. You roll a 10 and affect up to 12 hit dice worth of creatures.
You cast fear on undead.

(again that's just a simulation, not actual text and I'll get the exact wording up tonight)

I understand that all of that comes from the Turn rules for DnD.

Now from the online SRD:

Turning Check

The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.

Turning Damage

If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.

If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.

Okay I understand all of that as well.

Here's my question:

Does DDO follow the same table as given in the rules book or the online SRD?

As shown on the online SRD:

Table: Turning Undead Turning Check
Result Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level -4
1—3 Cleric’s level -3
4—6 Cleric’s level -2
7—9 Cleric’s level -1
10—12 Cleric’s level
13—15 Cleric’s level +1
16—18 Cleric’s level +2
19—21 Cleric’s level +3
22 or higher Cleric’s level +4

At one time I rolled a 20 for the Turning Checking and then rolled a 17 for number of hit dice to affect. I was facing 2 CR 5 ghouls (or maybe ghasts) and there was nothing in the log and the ghouls kept attacking. Shouldn't they have been feared?

After I saw this, I started watching the logs closer and it actually happened many times. I know that everyone says that turning is broken but is this what they are taking about or is it something different?

stockwizard5
12-17-2007, 01:24 PM
Does DDO follow the same table as given in the rules book or the online SRD?

Yes


I know that everyone says that turning is broken but is this what they are taking about or is it something different?

The Hit Dice of undead are relatively high (there are a couple of forum studies for details) which makes destroying them unlikely and turning any high level content impossible (except for some rare specific cases with very dedicated builds).


So if all this math and CR/HD stuff is basically correct then what we have is:

Level of Cleric (fully twinked Feat, Gear, CHA, Enhancements) to Destroy Average Undead of CR:

CR 0 = Cleric 5
CR 1 = Cleric 7
CR 2 = Cleric 9
CR 3 = Cleric 11
CR 4 = Cleric 14

Level of Cleric (fully twinked) to Destroy Worst Case Undead of CR:

CR 0 = Cleric 5
CR 1 = Cleric 10
CR 2 = Cleric 15 (estimated)

I think planning on destroying undead is useless ... now cowering them is reasonable.

Dexxaan
12-17-2007, 01:28 PM
Dude you have admitted to laziness....forget trying to turn stuff. In the unlikely event you do succeed, it just makes people have to
chase down the mobs anyway. :D And it seems my Madstone boots are going to be taking mileage wear if the new perma-dmg rules go into effect! :eek:

MrCow
12-17-2007, 01:30 PM
I was facing 2 CR 5 ghouls (or maybe ghasts) and there was nothing in the log and the ghouls kept attacking. Shouldn't they have been feared?

A couple of things on turn undead:


CR does not equal HD, especially on undead like skeletons and zombies where they often have 2 HD per CR.
DDO scales HD on elite. That elite ghoul you faced has about 8 HD or so (don't quote me on the number, it is an estimation).
Some monsters, like ghouls, have turn resistance. This is added to the HD the undead has for making sure they don't get turned. Ghouls have a turn resistance of +2.

Hafeal
12-17-2007, 01:34 PM
Players have reported succes of turning even at the highest levels of the game. As for being feared or destroyed, feared can be just as good - ask any fighter wearing fearsome armor.

With a 14 CHA, though, it is unlikely you will have success beyond normal for very long.

At higher levels you need a high CHA and take the enhancements available.

My capped cleric doesn't turn very well - but he is not built for it. I am currently building a human cleric and seen differences even at low levels. :)

DaveyCrockett
12-17-2007, 01:43 PM
PM Sent :D

DeadlyGazebo
12-17-2007, 02:30 PM
I know there are a number of threads out there and I'm just really to lazy to look for them to see if there is already an answer for this.

I started a cleric (4th level 21 wis 14 cha) and I was playing around with turn undead.

In the combat log, something like this shows up (I'll get online when I get home and post some actually text for accuracy):

You roll to see your affect on undead. You roll a 20 and are able to affect up to 8 Hit Dice creatures.
You roll to see the number of undead you can affect. You roll a 10 and affect up to 12 hit dice worth of creatures.
You cast fear on undead.

(again that's just a simulation, not actual text and I'll get the exact wording up tonight)

I understand that all of that comes from the Turn rules for DnD.

Now from the online SRD:

Turning Check

The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.

Turning Damage

If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.

If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.

Okay I understand all of that as well.

Here's my question:

Does DDO follow the same table as given in the rules book or the online SRD?

As shown on the online SRD:

Table: Turning Undead Turning Check
Result Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level -4
1—3 Cleric’s level -3
4—6 Cleric’s level -2
7—9 Cleric’s level -1
10—12 Cleric’s level
13—15 Cleric’s level +1
16—18 Cleric’s level +2
19—21 Cleric’s level +3
22 or higher Cleric’s level +4

At one time I rolled a 20 for the Turning Checking and then rolled a 17 for number of hit dice to affect. I was facing 2 CR 5 ghouls (or maybe ghasts) and there was nothing in the log and the ghouls kept attacking. Shouldn't they have been feared?

After I saw this, I started watching the logs closer and it actually happened many times. I know that everyone says that turning is broken but is this what they are taking about or is it something different?

1) Yep, we follow the book charts.

2) CR is not the same as HD; for undead in particular, HD is frequently much greater than CR.
Rolling a 20 on your turning check with a level 4 cleric lets you hit undead up to 8HD; an elite ghast is 12HD...

3) Some undead have turn resistance, which makes them effectively have a couple more HD for purposes of resisting turns (but not for HD-limited spells).

4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

MrCow
12-17-2007, 02:36 PM
an elite ghast is 12HD...

*Looks cautiously to the left*

*Looks cautiously to the right*

*Pilfers the HD information by stashing it in a database*

*Creeps back into the shadows*

On a side note, he mentioned the ghoul/ghast was CR 5, so it was either a hard ghast or an elite ghoul. Either way, you are looking to need a HD turn of about 10 or higher.

Fahkrin
12-17-2007, 03:26 PM
So basically, this means that we can't turn undead. The HD are jacked much higher in DDO than in PnP, so Turn Undead should be renamed Divine Vitality.

Laith
12-17-2007, 03:32 PM
So basically, this means that we can't turn undead. The HD are jacked much higher in DDO than in PnP, so Turn Undead should be renamed Divine Vitality.no. In PnP, undead HD are high for their CR. They get even HIGHER when you go and improve their CR (ie. hard/elite).

skeletons, for example, follow this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)


Hit Dice Challenge Rating
1/2 1/6
1 1/3
2-3 1
4-5 2
6-7 3
8-9 4
10-11 5
12-14 6
15-17 7
18-20 8


add to that that undead have d12 HD, and you begin to realize that undead are just big stupid bags of HD/HP.

Thing is though, in PnP skeletons aren't supposed to be able to exist above 20HD. You're stuck making a more powerful form of undead at that point. If there is any deviation from PnP: this is it.

In a sense, we ARE getting higher HD skeletons (CR 18 or so already i think)... but they're just taking the place of more powerful undead with fewer HD, but more turning resistance most likely.

I'm confident that the HD : CR ratio is being kept fairly well.

Spookydodger
12-17-2007, 03:46 PM
4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

The Reaver pre-raid is a good example of this. Those undead skeletal giants before each dragon's portal are unaffected by a normal-charisma, no real-real-enhancement-for-turning cleric. Throw on a set of those gloves of eternity(?) and a sacred item, and they're running for the hills. Very handy if your mage isn't well prepared for the flood of damage from his/her area damage

MysticTheurge
12-17-2007, 03:58 PM
A bunch of stuff


What MrCow said.

Welcome to the ranks. ;)

Galapas
12-17-2007, 04:08 PM
Monsters have HD pumped up in response to player combat abilities (melee and spell). Ignoring maximize and empower feats, (which are in PnP), spellcasters can still do more damage in DDO from enhancements and items that don't exist in PnP. The top level enhancement can add 40% damage, and a superior item can add 50% damage. Combined with the weighted damage dice (d6 is really 3+d3), players can do about 166% damage more in DDO than they would with similar spells in PnP. That is equivalent to a 12th level wizard getting an extra 20 levels aded on to calculate damage.

A cleric trying to turn undead can, at most, add 3 levels to his mechanic for calculating his turns from enhancements, and a little more from sacred items. If they wanted to scale turning like they did spell damage, a cleric should be able to more than double his effective level with enhancements and items, with a chance for "critical turns" that effectively double his level again. I think that would be going too far, but I also think they should pump up the current turning enhancements a bit - maybe +2, +3 and +4 instead of +1, +1, +1.

MysticTheurge
12-17-2007, 04:31 PM
Monsters have HD pumped up in response to player combat abilities (melee and spell).

No. This is not true.

HP yes. HD no.

death_smurf
12-17-2007, 05:21 PM
Monsters have HD pumped up in response to player combat abilities (melee and spell). Ignoring maximize and empower feats, (which are in PnP), spellcasters can still do more damage in DDO from enhancements and items that don't exist in PnP. The top level enhancement can add 40% damage, and a superior item can add 50% damage. Combined with the weighted damage dice (d6 is really 3+d3), players can do about 166% damage more in DDO than they would with similar spells in PnP. That is equivalent to a 12th level wizard getting an extra 20 levels aded on to calculate damage.

A cleric trying to turn undead can, at most, add 3 levels to his mechanic for calculating his turns from enhancements, and a little more from sacred items. If they wanted to scale turning like they did spell damage, a cleric should be able to more than double his effective level with enhancements and items, with a chance for "critical turns" that effectively double his level again. I think that would be going too far, but I also think they should pump up the current turning enhancements a bit - maybe +2, +3 and +4 instead of +1, +1, +1.

not true by any means my average turn is as a lev 24 cleric and my high is as a 26th level cleric for turning purposes. so i add 12 levels to my cleric level for the purpose of turns.

Galapas
12-18-2007, 07:28 AM
No. This is not true.

HP yes. HD no.

No, they add HD.

You may think that they don't because they don't pump up HD after determining CR, but they pump up the CR, which determines HD. In PnP, an appropriate encounter would be one creature with a CR equal to the party's level. In DDO, you often fight multiple creatures with CR higher than your level. You can do this because most combat abilities are inflated dramatically.

Yaga_Nub
12-18-2007, 07:36 AM
No. This is not true.

HP yes. HD no.

MT is correct. In another thread that I believe was wiped in the forum purge, I asked how mobs in DDO were given HP.

DeadlyG posted that the HD stay the same as in PnP for the most part. This was done so that spells didn't have to be changed from the PnP spell. Each mob was just given bonus HP.

To use Laith's chart as an example a CR 3 Skeleton should have 6-7 HD. So in DDO they would have 6-7 HD +XXX HP. The the HD and bonus HP are adjusted for hard and elite quests.

Galapas
12-18-2007, 07:42 AM
not true by any means my average turn is as a lev 24 cleric and my high is as a 26th level cleric for turning purposes. so i add 12 levels to my cleric level for the purpose of turns.

How are you adding +12 to turning with just enhancements and gear?

Galapas
12-18-2007, 07:49 AM
MT is correct. In another thread that I believe was wiped in the forum purge, I asked how mobs in DDO were given HP.

DeadlyG posted that the HD stay the same as in PnP for the most part. This was done so that spells didn't have to be changed from the PnP spell. Each mob was just given bonus HP.

To use Laith's chart as an example a CR 3 Skeleton should have 6-7 HD. So in DDO they would have 6-7 HD +XXX HP. The the HD and bonus HP are adjusted for hard and elite quests.

I recall that thread. They explicitly stated that they pumped up CR well beyond the level of the party that is intended to do the quest. Pumped up CR IS pumped up HD.

parvo
12-18-2007, 08:06 AM
Contrary to popular belief, turning works well in DDO. Most players believe if they don't blast the Undead to bits, it hasn't done anything. Due to the imbalance of the game, that is often reality. Actual turning of undead can be problematic because it takes longer to chase the running mob down. Most of the undead aren't going to get more than one attack off before they die to some other means. Add to those facts there is a horrible "no roll for attack " targeting bug when a mob is running away from your melee and you have a problem. However, the actual mechanics of turning work just fine. If you're willing to spend a feat on improved turning, go with a high charisma and use a Sacred item, you can turn and sometimes destroy Undead in quests that are at or near your priests level.

Yaga_Nub
12-18-2007, 08:14 AM
I recall that thread. They explicitly stated that they pumped up CR well beyond the level of the party that is intended to do the quest. Pumped up CR IS pumped up HD.

No, E said that they only change the HD of the mobs for hard and elite. He specifically said that they only pump up the HP of the mobs across the board to keep with things like turning and spells that affect a certain number of HD.

Arianrhod
12-18-2007, 08:28 AM
I think part of the disincentive for turning undead (or speccing to do so) comes when characters hit the mid levels & run the Delera's Tomb series. There, many players for the first time discover to their chagrin that turned wraiths sink into the floor & become unkillable, thus forcing the party to stand around waiting for them to become unturned so they can get the doors to unlock & finish the quest. It's a bit like the disincentives for commanding undead & charming monsters. It would help if charms & turns were dismissable at will like barbarian rage. Then people would be more willing to try turning undead, and would get more of a sense that it's moderately useful, even though it doesn't generally blow things up after third level or so.

Yaga_Nub
12-18-2007, 10:48 AM
I think part of the disincentive for turning undead (or speccing to do so) comes when characters hit the mid levels & run the Delera's Tomb series. There, many players for the first time discover to their chagrin that turned wraiths sink into the floor & become unkillable, thus forcing the party to stand around waiting for them to become unturned so they can get the doors to unlock & finish the quest. It's a bit like the disincentives for commanding undead & charming monsters. It would help if charms & turns were dismissable at will like barbarian rage. Then people would be more willing to try turning undead, and would get more of a sense that it's moderately useful, even though it doesn't generally blow things up after third level or so.

Wraiths do that when feared? I'm soooooo going to grief some pugs now! :)

Josh
12-18-2007, 11:23 AM
1) Yep, we follow the book charts.

2) CR is not the same as HD; for undead in particular, HD is frequently much greater than CR.
Rolling a 20 on your turning check with a level 4 cleric lets you hit undead up to 8HD; an elite ghast is 12HD...

3) Some undead have turn resistance, which makes them effectively have a couple more HD for purposes of resisting turns (but not for HD-limited spells).

4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

And there is the inherent flaw in the D20 turning system. I've been ****ed about that for years.

MrCow
12-18-2007, 11:28 AM
Wraiths do that when feared? I'm soooooo going to grief some pugs now!

I have seen a couple of times where a cleric turned a wraith in the first part of Delera's Tomb and it went zooming through the barred gates never to return. Good thing those lockdown rooms are on a timer.

Ustice
12-18-2007, 12:00 PM
1) Yep, we follow the book charts.

2) CR is not the same as HD; for undead in particular, HD is frequently much greater than CR.
Rolling a 20 on your turning check with a level 4 cleric lets you hit undead up to 8HD; an elite ghast is 12HD...

3) Some undead have turn resistance, which makes them effectively have a couple more HD for purposes of resisting turns (but not for HD-limited spells).

4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

Even on elite, without being completely specced for it, you should have at least a 25% chance. That currently isn't the case.

MrCow
12-18-2007, 12:03 PM
Even on elite, without being completely specced for it, you should have at least a 25% chance.

*Scratches his head*

Why should we have at least a 25% chance to turn something?

Yaga_Nub
12-18-2007, 12:08 PM
*Scratches his head*

Why should we have at least a 25% chance to turn something?

You're right! We should have a 50% chance! ;)

MysticTheurge
12-18-2007, 12:15 PM
Even on elite, without being completely specced for it, you should have at least a 25% chance.

I'm with MrCow. What's your logic here?

death_smurf
12-18-2007, 01:03 PM
How are you adding +12 to turning with just enhancements and gear?

also a +1 from the feat improved turning. my lev is 26 on a roll of 11 or higher. if u would like to see sceen shots id be happy to post em.

Galapas
12-19-2007, 04:13 PM
also a +1 from the feat improved turning. my lev is 26 on a roll of 11 or higher. if u would like to see sceen shots id be happy to post em.


First, you shouldn't count the feat. If we add in spellcasting feats like maximize and empower, the disparity is worse.
Second, don't count the die roll. A 24th level cleric would get a die roll too. Compare apples to apples, not oranges.

Galapas
12-19-2007, 04:21 PM
No, E said that they only change the HD of the mobs for hard and elite. He specifically said that they only pump up the HP of the mobs across the board to keep with things like turning and spells that affect a certain number of HD.

Go into a dungeon with undead on normal. Find the toughest undead creature. Look at its CR. it is supposed to be the same as the adventure level. It will probably be 1.5 to 1.75 times the adventure level. They DO pump up the CR. Their explanation claimed they did not pump up HD with respect to CR, but that doesn't matter since they are pumping up CR.

Of course, on hard and elite, they actually do pump up the HD beyond what would be expected from the reported CR.

For most combat abilities, the increase in HD is no problem, for some specific mechanics, it is a brutal handicap. Turning and level limited spells are screwed because of it.

MysticTheurge
12-19-2007, 04:26 PM
Find the toughest undead creature. Look at its CR. it is supposed to be the same as the adventure level.

Why?

In my D&D campaigns I regularly send my PCs against creatures with a CR higher than their level.

I'd do it even more often if they had 32-point builds and uber-lewtz.

parvo
12-19-2007, 04:42 PM
I have seen a couple of times where a cleric turned a wraith in the first part of Delera's Tomb and it went zooming through the barred gates never to return. Good thing those lockdown rooms are on a timer.

Last time I turned a Wraith it stopped dead in it's tracks and couldn't go incorporeal. That could have been a bug, but I'm hoping it was changed.

parvo
12-19-2007, 04:43 PM
Why?

In my D&D campaigns I regularly send my PCs against creatures with a CR higher than their level.

I'd do it even more often if they had 32-point builds and uber-lewtz.

Agreed. As if Clerics needed to be more powerful. We're already getting a spell buff that acts like double Sacred.

death_smurf
12-19-2007, 05:45 PM
First, you shouldn't count the feat. If we add in spellcasting feats like maximize and empower, the disparity is worse.
Second, don't count the die roll. A 24th level cleric would get a die roll too. Compare apples to apples, not oranges.

curious why wouldnt i include everything that that effects my level for turning purposes when based on it i cant turn at a level below 23 on a roll of a 1? that makes no sense what so ever. the fact is even on my worst roll possible i am turning 9 levels above my current character level! By the time i get to 24th level(if) more than likely the minimum i could get on the roll would be +3 due to my charisma +. metamagics dont factor into this in any way since they dont affect turns and this is what the discussion was about.

Galapas
12-19-2007, 06:16 PM
Why?

In my D&D campaigns I regularly send my PCs against creatures with a CR higher than their level.

I'd do it even more often if they had 32-point builds and uber-lewtz.


That is the whole point!

Players are dramatically overpowered for their level, so the encounters have their CR pumped up, but with regard to turning, players are relatively less overpowered.

MysticTheurge
12-19-2007, 06:19 PM
...but with regard to turning, players are relatively less overpowered.

And they're working to fix that. That's why we got turning related enhancements and "sacred," and turning related raid loot and turning related special collectible items and a new turning related spell.

death_smurf
12-19-2007, 07:19 PM
clerics are only underpowered for turning if they dont build and spec for it. if a wiz has a 16 int his pk or hold monster spell will be far less affective than a wizard with a 34 int and focuses in those schools. In the same way a str based fighter who has a 20 str is far less effective in dealing damage than a fighter who has a 32 str or higher.

If your cleric has a 14 charisma why would he be anywhere near as effective as a cleric with 32 charisma? he isnt and he wont be. the higher your charisma the better your effective level for turn will be based on the chart and +11 a 32 charisma cleric gets to his roll. that means the minimum the cleric can turn at is his level however on a roll of 10 or higher he will be turning 4 levels higher than his current level before gear spells and enhancements are factored in.

as of next mod, when my cleric hits level 16 the minimum the roll will net me will be +1 to turn level even on a roll of a 1 due to a +12 charisma modifer. and on rolls of 10 or higher, i will hit my max turn level based on gear spells enhancements feats etc of level 30 for turn purposes. the minimum level i will be able to turn at at that point will be lev 27. this is not underpowered at all. does it mean i will destroy every undead i come across? not at all very few actually, however almost every undead i encouter will be cowered.

If they added greater turns in some fashion, all those cowered undead would be destroyed. at which time the argument would swing and everyone would be saying clerics are far to overpowered they can destroy groups of undead 8 at a time with just one use of greater turn undead. Thats when we will see blanket immunities to turning etc.

a true turning cleric in ddo is not the same as a healing cleric at all. many things are sacrificed to boost the abilty to turn effectively. This type of cleric is not for everyone, however it can be extremely fun to play. That said u win... all mobs need to be nerfed until there is no challenge in the game at all ;)

Yaga_Nub
12-20-2007, 08:10 AM
Go into a dungeon with undead on normal. Find the toughest undead creature. Look at its CR. it is supposed to be the same as the adventure level. It will probably be 1.5 to 1.75 times the adventure level. They DO pump up the CR. Their explanation claimed they did not pump up HD with respect to CR, but that doesn't matter since they are pumping up CR.

Of course, on hard and elite, they actually do pump up the HD beyond what would be expected from the reported CR.

For most combat abilities, the increase in HD is no problem, for some specific mechanics, it is a brutal handicap. Turning and level limited spells are screwed because of it.

Just because the quest's adventure level is X does NOT mean the mobs CR should = X.

Where did that rule come from?

Galapas
12-20-2007, 03:35 PM
Just because the quest's adventure level is X does NOT mean the mobs CR should = X.

Where did that rule come from?

No, their CR should be less, unless they are the only mob in the encounter. It isn't a rule, it is a guideline. It comes from PnP. When you design an adventure for 5th level characters, the encounters (not the creatures) are supposed to be CR5. If you use multiple creatures, they should be of lesser CR.

Because players in DDO are much much more powerful than their PnP equivalents, Turbine uses higher CR value encounters on a routine basis. That's a good thing, because the game would be dull otherwise. There are, unfortunately, unintended side effects.