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Scarecrow
12-15-2007, 05:48 PM
Hello all. I know this subject has been beat to death, raised, and then critted again, but there was something I wanted to ask.

As we all know, we will not be getting Monks or Druids for some time. Partly, from what we've heard, because of game mechanics, and the difficulty of translating certain class features. However, I feel that new classes are something that would really help this game out, give the variety that is so integral to what D&D is.

So my question is: Is there any way that other D&D classes could be implemented before we get monks and druids, classes that could be put into the game using the what rules and mechanics are already in place?

A few ideas (many of which have been discussed here already.)

Favored Soul: Casts divine spells, but like a sorcerer. Spells are already in the game, should be easy enough to put in.

Warmage/Beguiler/Healer: Set it up as a sorcerer, severely limit it's spell list, give it enhancements that work on the warmage edge/improved healing/etc. Wouldn't be too hard to implement because it would work like a sorcerer and use spells that are already in game.

Hexblade: Similar to a paladin, but has a bestow curse ability, which is already in game. Enhancements could strenghten bestow curse, etc.

Knight: Fighter type, but abilities and enhancements that would improve intimidate rather than get feats.

Ninja: Rogue base. Just use sneak attack instead of quick strike, inate ability to go invisible for small bits of time, etc.

Archivist: Divine spells, but memorizes them like a wizard, including spell book. Also has a few bard like abilities that give allies a bonus versus certain enemy types

These are just a few. Others that could be included with just a bit tweaking would be the warlock and the scout.

Since it seems that new mechanics are making it difficult to get us new classes, I say forget those for the time being, and give players new classes that they can use. To see three or four at the same time would be fantastic, and it would give players reason to go back and replay many of those great quests that are out there and see little use. I feel that in many ways, new classes is what is going to save this game. DnD is all about variety, trying out new combinations, etc. A host of new classes would really do that, and it would be using mechanics that are in game.


Well... it's just an idea. What do others think?

tekn0mage
12-15-2007, 05:52 PM
Honestly, I think that's a great idea.

So you can't give us monks or druids in a TIMELY fashion, so what.

Give us SOMETHING for crying out loud. Don't just keep putting stuff off. Turbine really needs to release SOMETHING other than boring dungeons, stale grindfests and really weak explorable areas.

MysticTheurge
12-15-2007, 05:57 PM
One of the tricky parts of adding any new class to DDO is going to be enhancements.

Obviously some of the classes you listed can share enhancements with existing classes, but they're all going to need at least some unique ones or it'll be fairly disappointing.

Then there's the question of existing balance. Some of those classes have always seemed over- or underpowered to me.

edit -- Oh, but I do like the idea, and hope we can see these guys get added to the game (and balanced, or re-balanced if necessary).

tekn0mage
12-15-2007, 05:58 PM
One of the tricky parts of adding any new class to DDO is going to be enhancements.

Obviously some of the classes you listed can share enhancements with existing classes, but they're all going to need at least some unique ones or it'll be fairly disappointing.

Then there's the question of existing balance. Some of those classes have always seemed over- or underpowered to me.

edit -- Oh, but I do like the idea, and hope we can see these guys get added to the game (and balanced, or re-balanced if necessary).

balance isn't terribly important in a PvE game.

Typically NPC monsters don't complain on the forums the way players do.

Scarecrow
12-15-2007, 06:02 PM
One of the tricky parts of adding any new class to DDO is going to be enhancements.

Obviously some of the classes you listed can share enhancements with existing classes, but they're all going to need at least some unique ones or it'll be fairly disappointing.

Then there's the question of existing balance. Some of those classes have always seemed over- or underpowered to me.

edit -- Oh, but I do like the idea, and hope we can see these guys get added to the game (and balanced, or re-balanced if necessary).

You bring up good points MT. I could be wrong, but I think ehancements would be easier to adjust though than some of the tougher game mechancics that are trying to be implemented.

Also, in terms of overpowered/underpowered classes I, like many players, would just like to see new classes. Nerfing or stregthening a class could be done over time. At this point, I just want to see them.

dragnmoon
12-15-2007, 06:05 PM
balance isn't terribly important in a PvE game.

Typically NPC monsters don't complain on the forums the way players do.

tekn0.... this has been my favorite post all day!!! (maybe even Month)

Mind if I put it in my Sig?

MysticTheurge
12-15-2007, 06:23 PM
You bring up good points MT. I could be wrong, but I think ehancements would be easier to adjust though than some of the tougher game mechancics that are trying to be implemented.

Also, in terms of overpowered/underpowered classes I, like many players, would just like to see new classes. Nerfing or stregthening a class could be done over time. At this point, I just want to see them.

Yeah, I agree with you here. I realized my post was sounding kind of "ZOMG they don't do it/it could never happen cause..." which is why I edited in the last comment.

I was just trying to point out potential concerns.

And I think, honestly, the two things work together to make each other easier. You can strengthen or weaken a base class by giving it powerful or weaker enhancements.


balance isn't terribly important in a PvE game.

Typically NPC monsters don't complain on the forums the way players do.

So you don't think anyone would mind if the released a new class that essentially made some previously-available class obsolete?

Cause I'd expect to hear a lot of "OMG why is Turbine trying to make me reroll again?!?!"

BlueLightBandit
12-16-2007, 04:09 AM
Heck... I'm looking forward to new character classes and races coming out so much that I'd settle for a whole mod WITHOUT enhancements for a those new character types... Give us 10 levels of a new race or class, and then tweak it over the next three months, at that time add the next few levels and enhancements for the first 10 levels kind of in the same fashion they gave us all the other characters.

That way, when they add enhancements they'll already have a good idea if that class is overpowered in one aspect or lacking in another.

Heck, some of us remember getting through lvl 12 without the current enhancement system. Why should the new character types be any different?

tekn0mage
12-16-2007, 04:13 AM
Yeah, I agree with you here. I realized my post was sounding kind of "ZOMG they don't do it/it could never happen cause..." which is why I edited in the last comment.

I was just trying to point out potential concerns.

And I think, honestly, the two things work together to make each other easier. You can strengthen or weaken a base class by giving it powerful or weaker enhancements.



So you don't think anyone would mind if the released a new class that essentially made some previously-available class obsolete?

Cause I'd expect to hear a lot of "OMG why is Turbine trying to make me reroll again?!?!"

So who's forecasting doom and gloom now? Is it still me?

GlassCannon
12-16-2007, 04:24 AM
So you don't think anyone would mind if the released a new class that essentially made some previously-available class obsolete?

Cause I'd expect to hear a lot of "OMG why is Turbine trying to make me reroll again?!?!"

Obsolete... no. Simply give it some cool features that no other class gets(Rage Critical or Improved Precise Shot are good examples) without great expenditure in multiclassing or feats, and there you go.

As for balance... just spec everything for a party of 1 wizard 1 cleric 1 bard 1 paladin 1 fighter 1 rogue(ALL PURE CLASSES << felt I had to stress that) with no raid loot or named chest drops(and no crafted weaponry either! Chest pulls only.) and you're good to go. If people complain about overpowered classes, they should take a look at their best twinked out character and think again. Gear is 60% of a character's power. The rest is Enhancements and Base Stats.

MysticTheurge
12-16-2007, 09:04 AM
So who's forecasting doom and gloom now? Is it still me?

Yes. :p

tekn0mage
12-16-2007, 11:23 AM
Yes. :p

That's not funny. Maybe you forgot who you're talking to.

ahpook
12-16-2007, 11:34 AM
That's not funny. Maybe you forgot who you're talking to.

NOBODY forgets teckn0mage. :p

GeneralDiomedes
12-16-2007, 11:45 AM
Well, if you add ninjas, you have to add pirates.

And since the decline of pirates has been linked to global warming, their resurgence would likely herald a global cooling effect. This would mean a lot of work for some existing landscapes. Menachtarun would require a few oasis, I imagine Sorrowdusk would transition from jungle to boreal vegetation, perhaps even the Hellhounds would consolidate their headquarters in Searing Heights. I could see a lot of Ogres and Trolls trading in their loincloths for some fur jumpsuits. Actually this sounds like too much work.

Ninjas are out.

Scarecrow
12-16-2007, 12:17 PM
Arguing about what class is better or needs to be nerfed etc, is classic D&D. Just look at the D&D boards one day and you'll still find threads about which is better, wizard or sorcerer. So lets agree that we need new races, move on, and now try and help the devs out and post some ideas for the new classes.

Ninja (from Complete Adventurer)
d6 hit die
skills 6 + int
Skill list: Balance, bluff, concentration, disable device, hide, jump, listen, move silently, hide, open lock, search, swim, spot, tumble.
BAB: use rogue bab
Saves: Reflex save
proficient with all simple weapons and kama, shortbow, shortsword, shuriken. Not proficient with armour or shields.

level 1: AC bonus +1, sneak attack 1d6, ki power (+2 will saves), trapfinding
level 2: ki power: ghost step (turn invisible. Can us it = to half class level plus wis modifier)
level 3: sneak attack 2d6,
level 4: great leap (+4 to jump)
level 5: sneak attack 3d6
level 6: Acrobatics (+2 to jump, tumble), Ki power: ki dodge (conceal 20&#37; for 20 seconds), +2 AC
level 7: sneak attack 4d6
level 8: ki power: ghost strike (spend use of ki power to gain ghost touch for 20 secs)
level 9: sneak attack 5d6
level 10: Ghost step: gain displacement (50%) for 20secs with ki power use.
level 11: sneak attack 6d6, AC +3
level 12: Acrobatics (+4 to jump, tumble), evasion
level 13: sneak attack 7d6
level 14: Ghost mind (use of ki power to gain spell resistance for 20 secs.)



This is just a quick translation. It's pretty much identical to what's in the book, except for the ghost mind. But as you can see, it should be somewhat easy to add in. Will have more soon. Feel free to help out if you have your own ideas.

Scarecrow
12-16-2007, 12:32 PM
Here's a shot at the warmage. Again, this is pretty much right of the book:

Warmage (from complete arcane)
d6 hit dice
skills: 2 plus int modifier
skill list: concentration, intimidate
BAB: rogue progression
saves: will save
proficient with simple weapons, light armour, and light shields


spell progression like a sorcerer. Charisma to cast spells

level 1: armoured mage (no spell chance failure in light armour and light shields), warmage edge (and int modifier to damage on spells.)
level 7: Empower spell feat
level 8: armoured mage (no spell chance failure in medium or light shields and armour)
level 10: enlarge spell feat

spell list (not complete, but more or less):
1: burning hands, magic missle, chill touch, shocking grasp
2: flaming sphere, melf acid arrow, scorching ray
3: fireball, lightening bolt, fire shield
4: contagion, pk, wall of fire
5: cloud kill, cone of cold, flame strike
6: acid fog, blade barrier, tensers transformation, chain lightening,
7: delayed blast fireball, waves of exaustion, finger of death

Scarecrow
12-16-2007, 12:52 PM
Favored soul
d8 hit dice
skills: 2 + int modifier
skill list: concentration, diplomacy, heal, jump
proficient with light and medium armour, shields, simple weapons
Wisdom for spells, determines difficulty.
Casts from the divine spell list, but uses spells like a sorcerer. Has access to all divine spells.
BAB: Rogue BAB
Saves: All three

level 3: weapon focus
level 5: Energy resistance 10 (must choose to what energy type)
level 10: Energy resistance 10 (must choose type)
level 12: weapon specialization

Teufel_Hunden
12-18-2007, 11:51 AM
Good translations Scare,

I'm really digging the Ninja and Warmage. Never really liked the favored soul, tbh. But I would roll up either a Ninja or Warmage immediately.

neoanderthal
12-18-2007, 12:02 PM
NOBODY forgets teckn0mage. :p

Try as some of us might....

KiwiPhil889
12-18-2007, 12:03 PM
... i played PnP,but i remember the "almost Paladin" class of Cavalier. Would prolly fit into current game w/o alot of extra werk. Combination of 2 classes w/o having to multiclass,plus a couple of specials.

just somethin that popped into my head,sorry 'bout that lol

cheers

Yaga_Nub
12-18-2007, 12:05 PM
NOBODY forgets teckn0mage. :p

But we can try!

Xyfiel
12-18-2007, 01:53 PM
Or they could do what they did with Drow, make Duergar a playable race.

Scarecrow
12-18-2007, 07:01 PM
Well... here's another. The more I go thorugh a lot of these classes, the more I can't understand why they aren't in the game. They have no strange mechancics, and would make a great addition to this game.

Hexblade
d10 hit dice
skills = 2 +int modifier
skills = bluff, concentration, diplomacy, intimidate,
proficient with simple and martial weapons, light armour, no shileds
alignment: any non good

BAB = to fighter
saves = will
casts spells like with a paladin/ranger progeression. Charisma is casting stat

level one: hexblade curse ( -2 curse x1 a rest)
level two: arcane resistance (add Charisma to saves)
level three: Mettle (works like evasion, but with will and fort saves that cause damage)
level five: bonus feat, curse x2 rest
level 7: curse increase to -4
level 9: curse x3
level 10: bonus feat
level 12: aura of unluck x1 a day (gain coneal for 20 secs)
level 13: curse x4

spell list
1: cause fear, charm person, expeditious retreat, sleep
2: blindness, bull st, eagles splen, false life, glitterdust, invisibility, resist energy, touch of idiocy
3: charm monster, dispel, deep slumber, protection from energy
4: break enchantment, Dim Door, dominate person, enervation, phantasmal killer, solid fog

Scarecrow
12-18-2007, 10:31 PM
Swashbuckler. From Complete Warrior. I would add evasion in at level 9, but that's just me.

d10 hit dice
skills = 4 + int modifier
skills = balance, bluff, diplomacy, jump, swim, tumble
proficient with simple and martial weapons, light armour

BAB = to fighters
saves = Fort

Level 1: Weapon Finesse
Level 2: Grace +1 (add this bonus to reflex saves when wearing light armour)
Level 3: Insightful Strike (Add int bonus to damage when using weapon finesse)
Level 5: Dodge Bonus +1 (stacks with the feat)
Level 8: Improved flanking (gets a +4 bonus to attack when flanking.)
Level 10: Dodge Bonus +2
Level 11: Grace +2,
Level 14: Weakening Crit (does 2 points of st damage on successful crits.

adrinor
12-19-2007, 11:16 AM
Well... here's another. The more I go thorugh a lot of these classes, the more I can't understand why they aren't in the game. They have no strange mechancics, and would make a great addition to this game.

Hexblade
d10 hit dice
skills = 2 +int modifier
skills = bluff, concentration, diplomacy, intimidate,
proficient with simple and martial weapons, light armour, no shileds

BAB = to fighter
saves = will
casts spells like with a paladin/ranger progeression. Charisma is casting stat

level one: hexblade curse ( -2 curse x1 a rest)
level two: arcane resistance (add Charisma to saves)
level three: Mettle (works like evasion, but with will and fort saves that cause damage)
level five: bonus feat, curse x2 rest
level 7: curse increase to -4
level 9: curse x3
level 10: bonus feat
level 12: aura of unluck x1 a day (gain coneal for 20 secs)
level 13: curse x4

spell list
1: cause fear, charm person, expeditious retreat, sleep
2: blindness, bull st, eagles splen, false life, glitterdust, invisibility, resist energy, touch of idiocy
3: charm monster, dispel, deep slumber, protection from energy
4: break enchantment, Dim Door, dominate person, enervation, phantasmal killer, solid fog

Think of a 9 fighter/ 3 hexblade / 2 rogue

Don't you think that will be a little overpowered because of Mettle?

rpasell
12-19-2007, 11:46 AM
balance isn't terribly important in a PvE game.

Typically NPC monsters don't complain on the forums the way players do.


Irony FTW

Scarecrow
12-19-2007, 12:12 PM
Think of a 9 fighter/ 3 hexblade / 2 rogue

Don't you think that will be a little overpowered because of Mettle?

Honestly, it can be fixed or changed as we go. But, yours is the usual reaction to mettle. Mettle isn't as good as most think. It only works on will or fort saves that cause damage. For instance if you fail your save vs finger of death, you don't take the extra damage.

Regardless though, this is classic D&D, arguing about what is better or broken, etc. Lets get these classes in here.

Scarecrow
12-19-2007, 12:20 PM
Here's a shot at the healer

Healer
d8 hit dice
skills = 4 +int mod
skills = concentratrion, diplomacy, heal
proficient with simple weapons, light armour

BAB = wizard
Saves = fort and will
charisma is casting stat

level 1: healing hands (add charisma bonus to all healing spells)
level 2: skills focus heal
level 3: cleanse paralysis x1 (remove paral special ability)
level 4: cleanse disease x1
level 5: cleanse fear x1
level 6: cleanse poison x1
level 9: cleanse blindness x1
level 10: cleanse spirit x1 (greater restore)
level 13: cleanse petrification

spell casting progression like that of sorc.
spell list:
1: cure light wounds, pro from evil, remove fear, remove paralysis
2: cure mod wounds, remove blindness, remove disease, lesser restoration
3: close wounds, cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, remove curse, restoration
4: cure crit wounds, death ward, freedom of movement, mass cure light
5: mass cure mod, raise dead, true seeing
6: greater resore, heal, heroes feast, mass cure serious
7: mass cure crit, resurrection

MysticTheurge
12-19-2007, 12:23 PM
Think of a 9 fighter/ 3 hexblade / 2 rogue

Don't you think that will be a little overpowered because of Mettle?

better yet, combine hexblade, rogue and paladin ;)

Gratch
12-19-2007, 12:59 PM
Hey Crow,

Digging through the IRC chat and Mod 6 interview on raid items, it seems to me that mod 7 (3 months after mod 6?) so say April (then double the schedule and move to July)... is supposed to have Monks. I'm a big proponent of monks... they sat in my sig pleading to come out for a few months.

That said, I think the replay value of the game could be massively updated by adding in a number of these "easier to implement" classes based on existing mechanics. So I'd still like Monks... but I'd be much happier with Mod 7 if it gave us 3 or 4 classes such as these. We've gone too long without *difference*... just getting one new one means 5 servers of nothing but monk. :)

unionyes
12-19-2007, 02:36 PM
Maybe a better way to do it would be to make enhancement chains that would spec the classes that we already have now into some of the subsets that kick around on PnP. It could work like bards spellsinger/warchanter enhancements. Could easily add assassin enhancements to rogue class, monk may be problematic, druid could come from ranger or cleric. It would be better if they were implemented fairly early, like level 2, 3, or 4 at the latest, rather than at 6. Throw in half orc as a player race and its pig heaven :)

Maybe this would work better game mechanic wise? The technology is already there for this.

Swordalot
12-19-2007, 02:52 PM
better yet, combine hexblade, rogue and paladin ;)

Holy Wow.
Full rogue skills, evasion, Divine Grace, and Mettle.

Niiiice.

Except that whole, "Hexblade must be non-good" aspect.

Scarecrow
12-19-2007, 05:34 PM
That said, I think the replay value of the game could be massively updated by adding in a number of these "easier to implement" classes based on existing mechanics. So I'd still like Monks... but I'd be much happier with Mod 7 if it gave us 3 or 4 classes such as these. We've gone too long without *difference*... just getting one new one means 5 servers of nothing but monk. :)

It's true. I fear that when we do get monks, we're going to see nothing but. Getting a few classes at once would cut back on this. It's sort of the same thing when we first got Drow. That's all we saw. It's natural for people to want to play what's new. By giving us a spread of new classes, it would cut back on this.

Also, I really think this is what DDO needs overall. A lot of new classes would re raise interest in the game, bring back people who've left, etc.

Scarecrow
12-19-2007, 07:43 PM
It's strange, but would be a nice counter to the bard. Could be fun to see. More of a debuffer rather than a buffer.

Jester (From the Dragon Compendium Volume 1)
alignment (sorry, haven't been putting these in): any chaotic
d6 hit dice
skill = 6 plus int modifier
skills = balance, bluff, disable device, hide, intimidate, jump, move silently, open lock, perform, search, tumble, use magic device
proficient with simple weapons and rapier, shortsword, shortbow, light armour, all shields (except tower shields)

BAB = rogue's BAB
saves = reflex, will
charisma is casting stat. Gains spells like a bard

level 1: jesters audacity +1 (bonus to AC), jesters performance (like bard song) fascinate, inspiring quip (like bard song, but gives allies +2 to hit)
level 3: Jester performance taunt (enemy aggros on jester, gets +1 to hit, -2 ac).
level 5: Jesters Audacity +2
level 9: Jesters performance Buffoonery (target looses dex bonus to AC)
level 10: Jesters audacity +3, bone rattler (songs effect undead, but undead get additional +2 to resist)
level 12: jesters performance vicious lampoon (all opponents within range get -2 to attack rolls, skill checks, saves)

spell list
1: cause fear, charm person, command, expeditious retreat, feather fall, grease, hypnotism, jump, shocking grasp, sleep
2: blur, easgle splen, find traps, fox's cunning, glitterdust, hypnotic pattern, invisiblity, sound burst
3: crushing despair, haste, rage, slow, suggestion
4: Bestow curse, dimension door, fear, freedom of movement, shout
5: break enchantment, greater command, hold monster, feeblemind

smodge13
12-19-2007, 07:59 PM
With cap 16 coming soon then there should only be 1 more level cap raise left because 17-20 there aren't any new spells or anything special required to be made and providing they don't go into epic levels their going to have to start releasing new classes/ prestige classes

ToyVIP
12-19-2007, 09:00 PM
How about the Samurai? again from the complete warrior book as follows

Samurai
Hit Die: D10
Skills: 2+int mod
Skills: (not including ones not incorporated in ddo) Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate,

Proficient in all simple and martial weapons, all armour, gets bonus feat of bastard sword prof

Lvl 1: Daisho Prof (bastard sword and short sword as translated in the book)
Lvl 2: Two swords as one (aka TWF)
Lvl 3: Kiai Smite 1/day (can give a cry during combat, when he shouts, his next attack gains a bonus on attack roll and the damage roll equal to his cha bonus - Shouldnt be hard to incorporate)
Lvl 4:
Lvl 5: Laijutsu master (incorporate as quick draw with bastards or shortswords)
Lvl 6: Staredown (Able to strike fear into his foes by mere presense, he gains +4 to intim checks and can demoralise an oponent)
Lvl 7: Kiai Smite 2/day
Lvl 8: Improved Initiative (which we dont have in ddo)
Lvl 9:
Lvl 10: Mass Staredown
Lvl 11: Improved Two swords as one (Imp TWF)
Lvl 12: Kiai Smite 3/day
Lvl 13:
Lvl 14: Improved Staredown


honestly, the classes that have already been listed here, plus this one, id have a fieldday playing with, just cause they'r new... none of them are that hard to incorporate...

Just to poke my nose in another area, id love to see prestige classes come in, considering we'r gonna be in epic soon and to some builds, there isnt much point going epic on their own...

maybe come up with 3 prestiges for each type for after the level cap hits 20, 3 arcane, 3 warrior, 3 divine etc, or along such lines... id love to prestige a mage, or prestige a rogue

MysticTheurge
12-19-2007, 09:27 PM
Jester (From the Dragon Compendium Volume 1)

I doubt Turbine, because it's relationship is with WotC and not Paizo, would be authorized to use that material.

Scarecrow
12-19-2007, 09:33 PM
I doubt Turbine, because it's relationship is with WotC and not Paizo, would be authorized to use that material.

Actually, wizards does own it. Published and owned by Wizards, 2005. Check the credits page (got it in front of me right now.) Also, all items featured in dragon (and the compendium) are considered part of the Dungeons and Dragons world. Even in the RPGA, the Dragon Compendium, and its contents (including the jester), are open right now for games (Return to Undermountain.)

But, I could definitely see this not included for other reasons. Just thought it would be fun to show.

MysticTheurge
12-19-2007, 09:35 PM
Actually, wizards does own it. Published and owned by Wizards, 2005. Check the credits page (got it in front of me right now.) Also, all items featured in dragon (and the compendium) are considered part of the Dungeons and Dragons world. Even in the RPGA, the Dragon Compendium, and its contents (including the jester), are open right now for games (Return to Undermountain.)

Oh, nice! I'll have to look at it for some suggestions. I remember some nice stuff being in there.

Scarecrow
12-19-2007, 09:38 PM
How about the Samurai? again from the complete warrior book as follows

Samurai
Hit Die: D10
Skills: 2+int mod
Skills: (not including ones not incorporated in ddo) Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate,

Proficient in all simple and martial weapons, all armour, gets bonus feat of bastard sword prof

Lvl 1: Daisho Prof (bastard sword and short sword as translated in the book)
Lvl 2: Two swords as one (aka TWF)
Lvl 3: Kiai Smite 1/day (can give a cry during combat, when he shouts, his next attack gains a bonus on attack roll and the damage roll equal to his cha bonus - Shouldnt be hard to incorporate)
Lvl 4:
Lvl 5: Laijutsu master (incorporate as quick draw with bastards or shortswords)
Lvl 6: Staredown (Able to strike fear into his foes by mere presense, he gains +4 to intim checks and can demoralise an oponent)
Lvl 7: Kiai Smite 2/day
Lvl 8: Improved Initiative (which we dont have in ddo)
Lvl 9:
Lvl 10: Mass Staredown
Lvl 11: Improved Two swords as one (Imp TWF)
Lvl 12: Kiai Smite 3/day
Lvl 13:
Lvl 14: Improved Staredown


Nice one Toy.

Geonis
12-20-2007, 12:28 AM
How about variant classes?

These come from the Unearthed Arcana.

My favorite is the "Battle Sorceror".

You lose 1 spell per day from each spell level (less SP), you know 1 less at each level minimum 1 (know fewer spells), gain the ability to cast in light armor (like a Bard), d8 hit die (like a Cleric), and 3/4 BAB (like a Cleric).

I think something like this would be even easier to incorporate, as it would be only a little number changing, as the stuff needed is all already in the game.

Geonis
12-20-2007, 12:44 AM
Favored soul
d8 hit dice
skills: 2 + int modifier
skill list: concentration, diplomacy, heal, jump
proficient with light and medium armour, shields, simple weapons
Wisdom for spells, determines difficulty.
Casts from the divine spell list, but uses spells like a sorcerer. Has access to all divine spells.
BAB: Rogue BAB
Saves: All three

level 3: weapon focus
level 5: Energy resistance 10 (must choose to what energy type)
level 10: Energy resistance 10 (must choose type)
level 12: weapon specialization



Not quite correct, you do not have access to all Divine spells, you only know a small number (like a Sorceror).

The easy way to explain this, is the Sorceror-Cleric.

This would be easy to incorporate too.

As far as enhancements have been mentioned as the "hold-up" as far as incorporating these ideas, I suggest we think up some possibilities. Please, if you do have a suggestion as far as enhancements go, don't try and post "uber" enhancements. I mean nothing that would be overpowering.

Possible enhancements for Divine Soul

Increased Energy Resist I - 2 AP ML:5
Increases your inate energy resistance by 5 points.

Increased Energy Resist II - 4 AP ML:9
Increases your inate energy resistance by 5 points.

Increased Energy Resist III - 6 AP ML:13
Increases your inate energy resistance by 10 points.



Divine Warrior I - 2AP ML:4
Adds another +1 to hit to your Deity's favored weapon. (Weapon type chosen for bonus Weapon Focus)

Divine Warrior II - 4AP ML:9
Adds another +1 to damage to your Deity's favored weapon. (Weapon type chosen for bonus Weapon Focus)

Divine Warrior III - 6AP ML:14
Adds another +1 to hit and damage to your Deity's favored weapon. (Weapon type chosen for bonus Weapon Focus)


Energy of * I - 1AP ML:2
+20 SP

Energy of * II - 2AP ML:5
+20 SP

Energy of * I - 3AP ML:8
+20 SP

Energy of * I - 4AP ML:11
+20 SP



Any other ideas for any of the classes would be a great thing.

Oh, just in case it's needed to use these ideas.

I submit the preceding without expectation of any recompense. This information is usable by any entity for private or public use.

youbei
12-20-2007, 01:17 AM
Heck, some of us remember getting through lvl 12 without the current enhancement system. Why should the new character types be any different?

some of us remember getting lv 10 before velah flew ;)

Scarecrow
12-20-2007, 01:36 AM
Not quite correct, you do not have access to all Divine spells, you only know a small number (like a Sorceror).

Actually, that's what I said. Here's the quote:

"Casts from the divine spell list, but uses spells like a sorcerer."

I like your enhancement line though. Nice job.

Geonis
12-20-2007, 04:36 AM
Actually, that's what I said. Here's the quote:

"Casts from the divine spell list, but uses spells like a sorcerer."

I like your enhancement line though. Nice job.

I know, but the "Has access to all divine spells." kind of throws some people off.

I had to explain to a DM of mine, so I could play one, and he thought this meant they knew all of the Divine spells and cast like a Sorceror.

Scarecrow
12-20-2007, 01:38 PM
Here's another Caster. Mixes a bit of rogue into caster.

Beguiler (Players Handbook II)
d6 hitdice
skills = 6 plus int
skills = balance, bluff, concentrations, diplmacy, disable device, hide, jump, listen, movesilenty, open lock, search, spot, swim, tumble, use magic device.
BAB = to wizard
save = will
proficient with simple weapons and rapier, shortbow, shortsword. Light armour, no shields.
Int is used for casting. Casts spells like a sorcerer.

level 1: Armoured Mage (no spell chance failure in light armour), trapfinding (like a rogue)
level 2: Cloaked casting (+1 DC to spells)
level 8: Cloaked Casting (+2 to overcome spell resistance)
level 14: cloaked casting (+2 DC to spells)

spell list
1: charm person, detect secret doors, expeditiuos retreat, hypnotism, mage armour, obscuring mist, sleep
2: blur, glitterdust, hpnotic pattern, invisibility, knock, see invisibility,
3: deep slumber, dispel magic, displacement, haste, hold person, slow, suggestion
4: charm monster, crushing despair, freedom of movement, solid fog
5: break enchantment, dominate person, feeblemind, hold monster
6: mass suggestion, true seeing

ToyVIP
12-20-2007, 09:39 PM
now theres a class id forgotten about, id def be keen to see that come in, and all the things are already in the game!!

Rog
12-21-2007, 04:01 AM
any new class would be great i still want my druids but anything they give us would rock i am just happy we are getting CRAFTING THAT ROCKS

Talon_Moonshadow
12-21-2007, 10:46 AM
I WANT DRUIDS!!!!!!!!
It's a core class....come on.
Every LFM says need a cleric.....
Well, I'm tired of waiting for a cleric so I can do a quest.
Druids can heal and they are much cooler.
If we get druids, everyone will roll one and I will never have to wait for a cleric again!
Cure Spells
Heal Spell
Barkskin
Freedom of movement
Stoneskin
Fire Wall
Finger of Death!

I want Druids!!!!!!

Scarecrow
12-21-2007, 10:54 AM
I WANT DRUIDS!!!!!!!!

So do I. And I think a lot of people do.

But since druids are so difficult to implement, why not give us something that can be put in the game now? Druids would help with the Cleric LFM's, but so would the Favored Soul and the Healer. And it would give that variety that is so integral to D&D. I want druids... and swashbucklers, and warmages, and the FS, and the healer, and the beguiler, and the hexblade, etc. And those work off of mechanics that already in game.

MysticTheurge
12-21-2007, 11:04 AM
Druids can heal and they are much cooler.
If we get druids, everyone will roll one and I will never have to wait for a cleric again!
Cure Spells
Heal Spell
Barkskin
Freedom of movement
Stoneskin
Fire Wall
Finger of Death!

I want Druids!!!!!!

Clerics get:

Cure spells (for free and earlier), Heal spell (earlier), Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement, Blade Barrier and Destruction.

I just don't get why everyone is all "ga ga" over Druids. Or at least over their spells. They don't really have anything significantly better than clerics.

Now, wildshape focused druids will be a sight to behold. But no one ever seems go get all excited about that. And those druids are also going to trend away from healing in the same way "Battle Clerics" do.

dragnmoon
12-21-2007, 11:09 AM
Clerics get:

Cure spells (for free and earlier), Heal spell (earlier), Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement, Blade Barrier and Destruction.

I just don't get why everyone is all "ga ga" over Druids. Or at least over their spells. They don't really have anything significantly better than clerics.

Now, wildshape focused druids will be a sight to behold. But no one ever seems go get all excited about that. And those druids are also going to trend away from healing in the same way "Battle Clerics" do.


I never understood how when people say that a druid will add another healer class that will rpelace clerics... I agree MT a Cleric is a MUCH!!! better healer..

a Druid is a DANGEROUS FORCE OF NATURE!!!!!!!

Talon_Moonshadow
12-21-2007, 11:15 AM
I wasn't knocking clerics. Clerics are good....clerics are better healers.
Druids are different. There's a large group of people that like them.
And, Druids would give us another class that could fill the gap of a missing cleric.
I'm not saying I would rather have a druid than a cleric....
But many people do not like playing a cleric.
More variety = less waiting for a healer IMO.
Especially at first, when Druids are the new kid on the block that everyone will be trying out.
Fire Wall and FOD are probably the most used arcane spells right now.
Barkskin and freedom of movement are the most used Ranger spells (Clerics also have FoM)
Stoneskin is a great arcane buff.
Druids get all of that plus healing spells.

As popular as they are in PnP D&D, I think they would be even better in DDO because so many of the high used spells in this game are on their spell list.

Not to replace clerics, but to fill in when one is missing.

MysticTheurge
12-21-2007, 03:38 PM
More variety = less waiting for a healer IMO.

Except that every druid is going to be about the same amount of healer as a battle cleric. Or a bard.

That's all I'm getting at.

Yeah, the class'll be nice. But they're not going to fill in for people who think they need a healer.

TsunamiBomb
12-21-2007, 04:14 PM
Is it me or are Druids kinda mehh... in DnD?

Scarecrow
12-21-2007, 04:32 PM
All of this discussion about the druid is why I stand by my statement that getting just one class is a bad idea. Giving us a few different classes at the same time, espcecially some of the easier implemented ones, would cut back on this.

A nice grouping, like say the Hexblade, Ninja, Favored Soul, Warmage would provide a decent counter to what we have currently.

Swordalot
12-21-2007, 04:56 PM
Is it me or are Druids kinda mehh... in DnD?

CoDzilla is a term often thrown toward overpowered Druid of Cleric multiclass characters.

The idea being that full divine access, heavy armor proficiency, and no spell failure make them amazing all-around characters, at leat, in Tabletop.

Pellegro
12-21-2007, 05:24 PM
I'm surprised they pushed monks ahead of druids, given how important clerics (read: healers) are perceived to be in this game.

More on point, I think lots of the ideas in this thread are really cool adn would make a great release. Code up 5 or 6 of these alternative classes under a disclaimer that they *will* be balanced under next mod or 2, and wow ... everybody will be rerolling from lvl 1 and doin' it all over again.

MysticTheurge
12-21-2007, 05:27 PM
All of this discussion about the druid is why I stand by my statement that getting just one class is a bad idea. Giving us a few different classes at the same time, espcecially some of the easier implemented ones, would cut back on this.

A nice grouping, like say the Hexblade, Ninja, Favored Soul, Warmage would provide a decent counter to what we have currently.

While I generally agree, I think that they're set on getting Monk and Druid out first.

And honestly, I don't mind. The new tech they'll need to add for druids will be useful in several other instances (shifters, shapechanging prestige classes like Bear Warrior, spells like Polymorph etc.) and really does need to be added to the game ASAP for D&D to be fully implemented.

Once they get those two classes out, I do think it'd be nice to get some classes in bundled groups.

(Though, it also might not hurt for them to stick a few things in with monks and druids. A Monk/Samurai/Ninja/Shugenja/Wu Jen module would be pretty awesome. I suspect they just don't have the resources to do that and still get monks out in a reasonable time frame though.)


I'm surprised they pushed monks ahead of druids, given how important clerics (read: healers) are perceived to be in this game.

The reasons seems pretty straight forward to me. The new tech needed for Monks (more in-depth unarmed attacks, longer/faster attack chains) is significantly simpler than the new tech needed for Druids (shapechanging).

Scarecrow
12-21-2007, 06:04 PM
While I generally agree, I think that they're set on getting Monk and Druid out first.

The key word in your sentence here is "think." But in all honesty, you know about is much as the rest of us on the subject, which is almost nothing. The simple fact that it is going to take over two years before we even get one new class is sort of contradicting the idea that they are set on getting any class out at all.

Also, it bothers me some what that so much of this thread has been about arguing semantics. When it comes down to it, we just need and want new classes. That's what it's really about. Bringing the variety that is so important to D&D into DDO.

Scarecrow
12-21-2007, 06:07 PM
More on point, I think lots of the ideas in this thread are really cool adn would make a great release. Code up 5 or 6 of these alternative classes under a disclaimer that they *will* be balanced under next mod or 2, and wow ... everybody will be rerolling from lvl 1 and doin' it all over again.

Awesome Pellegro. This is exactly why I started this thread. Trying some of these out would be a blast.

Pellegro
12-21-2007, 06:17 PM
The new tech needed for Monks (more in-depth unarmed attacks, longer/faster attack chains) is significantly simpler than the new tech needed for Druids (shapechanging).

I dunno. I mean, I don't know either way, but I'm not sure why making all the combat models for every race for Monk would be any different than just making all the combat models for every animal that Druids turn in to.

Your statement is made with an air of truth that is not so obvious to me.

MysticTheurge
12-21-2007, 07:03 PM
The key word in your sentence here is "think." But in all honesty, you know about is much as the rest of us on the subject, which is almost nothing.

Oh, yeah, well that's for sure.


Also, it bothers me some what that so much of this thread has been about arguing semantics. When it comes down to it, we just need and want new classes. That's what it's really about. Bringing the variety that is so important to D&D into DDO.

This is an inevitable problem with good ideas. Without controversy you tend not to have a lot of discussion, and when your idea is just plain good (i.e. "We need more classes!") there's not a lot for people to talk about unless they talk about other tangentially related things. ;)


I dunno. I mean, I don't know either way, but I'm not sure why making all the combat models for every race for Monk would be any different than just making all the combat models for every animal that Druids turn in to.

Well, there's additional rules to be discussed and evaluated (Shapeshifting is one of the most complicated things in D&D and has gone through several revisions even during the 3.5 era).

In addition, there are some fairly involved UI issues to be worked out. Like how to you implement the special attacks that you get while polymorphed/shapeshifted? Is it a feat that you can then just drag to the hotbar? Is there a new window?

Plus, and Codog touched on this briefly before, another of the Druid's major abilities is as summoner/pet-master (so to speak). Where clerics have the Cure spells auto-prepped, Druids have Summon Nature's Ally. Plus they get an animal companion. With the current system, where pets are fairly gimped, that'd be a major facet of the class that would need addressing.

Monks have some straight-forward animation to be done, druids have a lot of fairly complex issues. At least it seems to me.

Hendrik
12-21-2007, 07:11 PM
The key word in your sentence here is "think." But in all honesty, you know about is much as the rest of us on the subject, which is almost nothing.

What MT 'thinks' is sometimes better then some peoples 'facts'.

:)

Pretty safe to assume there are going to be some major hurdles to get over getting these two classes in and keep them true to form.

I have faith and patience...

;)

Pellegro
12-21-2007, 07:49 PM
Well, there's additional rules to be discussed and evaluated (Shapeshifting is one of the most complicated things in D&D and has gone through several revisions even during the 3.5 era).

In addition, there are some fairly involved UI issues to be worked out. Like how to you implement the special attacks that you get while polymorphed/shapeshifted? Is it a feat that you can then just drag to the hotbar? Is there a new window?

Plus, and Codog touched on this briefly before, another of the Druid's major abilities is as summoner/pet-master (so to speak). Where clerics have the Cure spells auto-prepped, Druids have Summon Nature's Ally. Plus they get an animal companion. With the current system, where pets are fairly gimped, that'd be a major facet of the class that would need addressing.

Monks have some straight-forward animation to be done, druids have a lot of fairly complex issues. At least it seems to me.


I don't know the rules too well, so I'll trust you on that one. What I had imagined was that you hit the shapeshift button, then your various attacks (on your hotbar) light up, like teh difference between having SP and not with spells. So I guess it would work like any active feat or enhancement (or other special attacks). Out of curiousity - what all is involved? I figured you polymorph into a bear, and then have maybe a few special attacks like trip or whatever, but I really don't know ....

As for summons, I recall Codog's post. It is an issue. The summoning AI is less than spectacular. That said, they have *something* so I'm not sure why it would be a deal breaker. Just give druids the ability to summon the various things they're allowed to - like clerics, arcanes, and rangers can do now.

Lastly, the animal companion is pretty easy to address. Do the same thing that they did for ranger companions. :D

Again, I really don't know the rules so I have no reason to doubt that it woudl be difficult. But the point was difficult of druids versus monks, and monks have lots of their own goodies, right? Flurry of blows, those dodge arrow feats or wahtever, speed .... Hehe, when I played D&D, if you got high enough lvl as a monk you got some insta-death attack that was pretty sweet (and game breaking).

Plus, you have to make all the equipment to help the monk out .. the bracers and boots and all that other good stuff that monks expect to have to supplant their unarmed combat. Most of the non-metal goodies are already in game (except maybe like swords and such ... we don't seem to have many wooden swords do we?)

Regardless, I don't fault them either way. I'm sure they have good reasons and they're probably linked to summons and the other issues you noted.

Happy holidays!

Obitus
12-21-2007, 07:55 PM
The reasons seems pretty straight forward to me. The new tech needed for Monks (more in-depth unarmed attacks, longer/faster attack chains) is significantly simpler than the new tech needed for Druids (shapechanging).

The new tech might be more complex for Druids, but I think Monks are ultimately harder to translate.

Consider:

-Spell Resistance is significantly less powerful in DDO than in PnP. It only protects against non-damage spells, and generally speaking DDO players in Elite content will face higher-level casters (and more of them) than they might in level-appropriate quests in PnP. It is for these reasons (and one other) that Drow SR is widely considered pointless. For the Drow, I suppose that's fine, because there is after all no ECL penalty in DDO, but for the Monk? Eh.

-Neither grappling nor attacks of opportunity exist in DDO, so there go some of the Monk's appealing bonus feat options.

-Likewise, the ability to speak any language and the ability to stop aging are both worthless in DDO's combat-centric environment.

-A lot of the Monk's class abilities are also trivialized by the sheer power of the loot in DDO. Immunities to poison and disease, slow fall, and DR 10/magic (at level 20) aren't real impressive within the context of DDO. Along the same lines, the Monk's unarmed damage-type bonuses are insignificant when measured against the sheer variety of DR that opponents present in DDO. Will the devs give us transmuting gloves?

Granted, almost no class translates perfectly. The big loss, in my mind, is to spell resistance, which I consider to be one of, if not the premiere advantage of the class. From the devs' perspective, though, the Monk seems to present a pretty huge challenge. What will they do about Flurry of Blows, for instance? Will they allow unarmed offhand attacks? If so, how will that work? Will it be a toggle-able stance, and if so, then will that toggle-able stance conflict with others?

It seems to me that Monks would become a popular 2-3 level splash (for Evasion, the boost to all three saves, the skill points, Flurry of Blows, Deflect Arrows, the WIS bonus to unarmored AC, and possibly a tick of fast movement), but they'd have to be given some pretty freaking impressive enhancements to make the class compelling beyond that point.

There's a fine line to be drawn. Rightly or wrongly, though, I doubt the devs want to make a class that is uber as a splash, yet mediocre as a pure build. Personally, I could do without all of the artificial incentives to roll (or stay with) a given class, but the history of the game indicates to me that the devs have a different philosophy.

Scarecrow
12-21-2007, 08:24 PM
What MT 'thinks' is sometimes better then some peoples 'facts'.


If you believe this, then I have some property for sale for you... in Stormreach... cheap. ;)

ToyVIP
12-21-2007, 08:26 PM
ok, i think this topic has gotten slightly sidetracked... it started off more as a thread to give the dev's some ideas that are easier to impliment into the game to keep us sidetracked from the time its taking to get the druid and monk out, but its gone back to the usual druid/monk thread...

theres a lot of ideas here that the technology is already in the game to bring the classes in, so its something they can swing in easily, rather than the mass technology that needs to come in for monk and druid...

it would be nice to see this topic get back onto what its supposed to be rather than the bashing session about monks and druids...

i think scarecrow has the right idea... bringing in other classes together is gonna stop the huge influx of lowbies of the same class... can u all imagine what its gonna be like to find a lowbie healer when monk comes out on its own??? its gonna be near impossible so good luck finding healers for stk etc...

I'm going to ask the dev's to please consider this option, bring in one or two other easily added classes with the monk and it'll please more than just the percentage of monk-mad players...

Scarecrow
12-21-2007, 08:38 PM
Without controversy you tend not to have a lot of discussion, and when your idea is just plain good (i.e. "We need more classes!") there's not a lot for people to talk about unless they talk about other tangentially related things.

Not neccesarily true. There can be plenty of disccussions on a topic without "controversy." Especially in a thread about a game. We can talk rules, classes, and a host of other things (as can be seen in various threads just on these boards) without "controversy."

And again, my idea was not just "we need more classes." It presented an alternative to monks and druids, as well as listing these classes, abilities, etc. So if you need tangents to keep yourself interested, there are plenty to disccuss here already, rather than having to go off on a tangent about a tangent ;)

So, moving on. Of the classes I've posted on this thread so far, I would really like to see either the Favored Soul, Healer, and the Ninja. My reason being is that we have a few variant martial classes (paladin, fighter, barbo, ranger), arcane caster (sorc, wizard), but no other divine casters or alternates to the rogue (bard sort of fits everywhere).

MysticTheurge
12-21-2007, 08:55 PM
Not neccesarily true. There can be plenty of disccussions on a topic without "controversy." Especially in a thread about a game. We can talk rules, classes, and a host of other things (as can be seen in various threads just on these boards) without "controversy."

Yeah, I definitely agree. Forum threads just tend to die out (in the absence of controversy) or get sidetracked a lot.

I have been meaning to do write ups for some classes for this thread as well, but I've been trying to work on my Prestige Enhancement thread too. And there's only so much D&D-to-DDO converting I can do before my brain melts down.

One thing that might help would be to organize the thread (this thread, or start a new one with a more specific name like "Unofficial Alternative New Class Compendium") and start collecting write ups in the first couple posts. That also tend to help encourage people to contribute their own ideas and discourage them from getting sidetracked in discussions about monks and druids.

And, you might try including some key enhancement lines for each class, that could be interesting too, and get people involved.

Gratch
12-21-2007, 10:30 PM
Given we're now coming up on 2 years with no new classes and the "most of him's already done" monk is still not here... I'm writing druids off from EVER hitting DDO. We don't want another few years worth of promises and delays on druids... I'm all in favor of adapting the classes listed here for DDO to give us something new and different that CAN be done by the DDO engine.

DDO2: Revenge of the 4.0 Rules can work in Druids at the start.

Make it so.

Aesop
12-21-2007, 10:37 PM
I have been meaning to do write ups for some classes for this thread as well, but I've been trying to work on my Prestige Enhancement thread too. And there's only so much D&D-to-DDO converting I can do before my brain melts down.
.

No no you have this backwards... your brain melts first and then you start converting... its the natural progression and trying to do it backwards will actually harm the brain matter thus preventing it from reforming with anything useful in it... including the automatic body reactions... like breathing and blinking.

Aesop

btw
Scout
HD: d8
Skills per level 8+Int mod
Skills: Balance, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim, and Tumble
Wpn Prof: All Simple, Hand Axe, Throwing Axe, Short Sword, Short Bow
BAB: Rogue
Saves: Reflex

1: Skirmish (1d6), Trapfinding
2: Battle Fortitude, Uncanny Dodge
3: Fast Movement 5% , Skirmish (1d6, +1AC)
4: Bonus Feat
5: Evasion, Skirmish (2d6, +1AC)
6:
7: Skirmish (2d6, +2AC)
8: Bonus Feat
9: Skirmish (3d6, +2AC)
10:
11: Battle Fortitude +2, Fast Movement 10%, Skirmish (3d6, +3AC)
12: Bonus Feat
13: Skirmish (4d6, +3AC)
14:
15: Skirmish (4d6, +4AC)
16: Bonus Feat

Bonus Feats: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Blind Fighting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Point Blank Shot,Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack

Skirmish: must be moving for the benefits to be active... the problem with this line is that it makes the Spring Attack/ SotR line almost a sure thing for 90% of the builds

Enhancements

lvl 1
Scout's Armor Boost 1
Scout's Skill Boost 1
Scout's Sprint Boost 1
Scout's Faster Sneaking 1
Scout's Skirmisher's Aggression 1 (+1 Damage per die of Skirmish damage) (this is modeled after my Rogue suggestion... see later)
Scout's Skill Group 1 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)

lvl 2
Scout's Dexterity 1
Scout's Battle Fortitude 1 (+1 to Fortitude Saves)
Scout's Skirmisher's Accuracy 1 (+1 to hit while Skirmishing)
Scout's Energy Resistance 1 (individual Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Sonic)
lvl 3
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 1 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)
Scout's Long Stride 1: +2.5% Speed increase

lvl 4
Scout's Armor Boost 2
Scout's Skill Boost 2
Scout's Sprint Boost 2
Scout's Skill Group 2 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)

lvl 5
Scout's Faster Sneaking 2
Scout's Item Defense 1

lvl 6
Scout's Long Stride 2: +2.5% Speed increase
Scout's Skirmisher's Accuracy 2 (+1 to hit while Skirmishing)
Scout's Energy Resistance 2 (individual Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Sonic)
Scout's Dexterity 2
Scout's Skirmisher's Aggression 2 (+1 Damage per die of Skirmish damage)

lvl 7
Scout's Armor Boost 3
Scout's Skill Boost 3
Scout's Sprint Boost 3
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 2 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)

lvl 8
Scout's Skill Group 3 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)

lvl 9
Scout's Faster Sneaking 3
Scout's Item Defense 2
Scout's Long Stride 3: +2.5% Speed increase

lvl 10
Scout's Skirmisher's Accuracy 3 (+1 to hit while Skirmishing)
Scout's Armor Boost 4
Scout's Skill Boost 4
Scout's Sprint Boost 4
Scout's Energy Resistance 3 (individual Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Sonic)
Scout's Dexterity 3

lvl 11
Scout's Skirmisher's Aggression 3 (+1 Damage per die of Skirmish damage)
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 3 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)
Scout's Extra Action Boost 1

lvl 12
Scout's Skill Group 4 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)
Scout's Battle Fortitude 2 (+1 to Fortitude Saves)

lvl 13
Scout's Faster Sneaking 4
Scout's Item Defense 3
Scout's Long Stride 4: +2.5% Speed increase

lvl 14
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 4 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)



What's Missing and the Rogue suggestion
Missing Elements from the class include Sensory Enhancements

Blindsence
Blind Sight

Movement Enhancments

Trackless Step
Flawless Stride

and the Stealth Enahncements

Camouflague
Hide in Plain Sight


These things have either limited use or were not previously coded for Rangers and as such I didn't add them in to the class here. They are however easily added back in if the code and functiojn becomes useful.

Battle Fortitude give a bonus to Initiative as well as Fort Saves in PnP... a coralating bonus could be found and added in if desired and would be greatly appreciated.

The true difficulty of this class is the Skirmish Ability... however given the proposed suggested changes to the Mobility Feat and the current movement penalty to hit I don't see this as being overly problematic for implementation.

In another thread I proposed a change to a specific Rogue Enhancement line. Currently the Rogue's Sneak Attack Trtaining line gives +2, +4, +6 and +8 to sneak attack damage. My proposal was to change this to a die mechanic that would add +1, +2 and +3 to each die of sneak attack damage the rogue inflicts. This would enhance the rogues role as a DPS character and provide a great bonus to help "pure" rogues out substantually

Hendrik
12-22-2007, 08:42 AM
If you believe this, then I have some property for sale for you... in Stormreach... cheap. ;)

Hehe

No thanks. Just bought a bunch in House J. MT sold it to me...

:)

cdbd3rd
12-22-2007, 09:00 AM
What MT 'thinks' is sometimes better then some peoples 'facts'.;)


If you believe this, then I have some property for sale for you... in Stormreach... cheap. ;)

/casts Fool's Copper spell.

Heh. Here's what I know about the "facts" of this game. Even from the devs themselves, anything that hasn't hit the live servers is still just a 'think'. ;) As for who knows more than anyone else, the only difference falls on who has read/listened to the devs/CS folks and who hasn't. And like I said, even that is all 'think' - so take everything non-live with a grain of saltpeter. :)

Getting back to the issue of monks and druids, ANY new class is going to have major complications involved. Given how we tend to slam-dunk anything that doesn't perfectly mesh with our current game, then slam-dunk on it again when it gets 'rebalanced' later... Figure on giving the powers extra time to give any new classes/races a very exhaustive trial run before we ever get a hint of it coming soon for real.

/Sneaks away before the 2 coppers turn back into chunks of sandstone. :p

edit: okay, so I revisited the opinion already expressed several times through the thread. I will support the opinion that a selection of subclasses brought in with a new full class might help alleviate the routine we've seen with Drow, where the town seemed chock full of one race for a short time.

Scarecrow
12-22-2007, 05:05 PM
Aesop,

Nice job on that scout conversion. You are right though, can you imagine how powerful skirmish would be in this game? Getting the extra damage while moving would be insane. Not quite sure how this one could be converted. Maybe changing the d6 skirmish damage to a +1? Not sure, what do you think?

Scarecrow
12-22-2007, 05:06 PM
Hehe

No thanks. Just bought a bunch in House J. MT sold it to me...

:)

I figured as much. Now just don't drink the kool aid if he offers it to you :D

Hendrik
12-22-2007, 05:27 PM
I figured as much. Now just don't drink the kool aid if he offers it to you :D

He offered but it was cherry, I like grape.

:mad:

Aesop
12-22-2007, 05:51 PM
Aesop,

Nice job on that scout conversion. You are right though, can you imagine how powerful skirmish would be in this game? Getting the extra damage while moving would be insane. Not quite sure how this one could be converted. Maybe changing the d6 skirmish damage to a +1? Not sure, what do you think?

It is powerful... but at the same time it doesn't work against the same mobs that Sneak Attack doesn't work against. It is also a bit lower on the damage table than sneak attack and because you are moving you can't get a full attack progression going and you attack a little slower. Couple that with the Attack penalty while moving (negated by 3 Feat of course) ... I think it will be ok in the end


Aesop

Aesop
12-22-2007, 05:52 PM
I figured as much. Now just don't drink the kool aid if he offers it to you :D

Could be worse ... Could be Flavor Aid



Aesop

Scarecrow
12-22-2007, 07:53 PM
From Heroes of Horror supplement.

I think it could work. Casts divine spells, but from a spellbook and with wizards progression. Difficulty comes with spcecial abilities (dark lore I think it's called.) It can do various things, but maybe if it was simplified to +1 to hit and +2 to damage vs the archvivists enemies. It would be somethign like rangers favored enemey ability, but given to allies through a song or some such. Some want to give this one a conversion. If not, I'll try it out tomorrow.

Dread Necromancer from that same book could work, but it might be a bit tougher than some of the other classes that are ready to go.

Scarecrow
12-23-2007, 04:00 PM
Wondering if there was any chance of a dev response on this. Not expecting these new classes in mod six, but it would be a great thing to look forward to. Is it feasable to add any of these other classes, say Favored Soul, Ninja, Warmage, Hexblade? Any response would be greatly appreciated.

MysticTheurge
12-23-2007, 05:51 PM
Wondering if there was any chance of a dev response on this. Not expecting these new classes in mod six, but it would be a great thing to look forward to. Is it feasable to add any of these other classes, say Favored Soul, Ninja, Warmage, Hexblade? Any response would be greatly appreciated.

You might try asking in "The Dog House." (If you didn't already, I haven't been paying complete attention to all the questions asked there.)

Scarecrow
01-06-2008, 01:07 PM
After reading through the current Tolero thread, I think this issue is even more important. Over and over again I see people listing new classes in their wish list. Putting in these easier to implement classes would really breathe life into this game and add a whole new aspect to it.

tekn0mage
01-06-2008, 01:58 PM
After reading through the current Tolero thread, I think this issue is even more important. Over and over again I see people listing new classes in their wish list. Putting in these easier to implement classes would really breathe life into this game and add a whole new aspect to it.

Not likely for another 6 months. They may surprise us in May or June, but don't expect it before then. Turbine has completely, utterly and knowingly dropped the ball on Monks.

The addition of drow was nothing more than a "quickfix" using shortcut methods. New colors and a slightly different stat roll (with a few feats / enhancements added) ... surprised that they only came up with 1 new race in 2 years? Not I.

Hendrik
01-06-2008, 02:41 PM
Not likely for another 6 months. They may surprise us in May or June, but don't expect it before then. Turbine has completely, utterly and knowingly dropped the ball on Monks.

The addition of drow was nothing more than a "quickfix" using shortcut methods. New colors and a slightly different stat roll (with a few feats / enhancements added) ... surprised that they only came up with 1 new race in 2 years? Not I.

In your opinion.

Scarecrow
01-06-2008, 03:37 PM
Not likely for another 6 months. They may surprise us in May or June, but don't expect it before then. Turbine has completely, utterly and knowingly dropped the ball on Monks.

I don't disagree with you here. But waiting six months for these new classes is ok in my book. We've waited almost two years for new classes, a few more months with the promise of getting a few of these is fine.

Here's to hoping though.

tekn0mage
01-06-2008, 04:39 PM
In your opinion.

That's not an opinion, dude. Unless you're going to tell me that they MEANT for Monks in 2008 when they said to us (in 2005) that we would have them by the end of 2006. Then 2007 they said we'd have them by the fall. Then when fall came they said it would be pushed back until sometime next year... are you seeing a pattern?

[eaten by cube]

tekn0mage
01-06-2008, 04:42 PM
I don't disagree with you here. But waiting six months for these new classes is ok in my book. We've waited almost two years for new classes, a few more months with the promise of getting a few of these is fine.

Here's to hoping though.

I've learned not to put any hope in Turbine.

No monks or druids, but hey at least we got wallpaper!!! 15 new ones...amazing.

Aspenor
01-06-2008, 05:02 PM
I've learned not to put any hope in Turbine.

No monks or druids, but hey at least we got wallpaper!!! 15 new ones...amazing.

Rare that I agree with Tek....but they are really just posts of all our loading-screen art....:cool::(:o

Scarecrow
01-06-2008, 05:19 PM
No monks or druids, but hey at least we got wallpaper!!! 15 new ones...amazing.

That's why I've titled this thread what I did. Obviously, monks and druids are too difficult for them. Lets move on for now, and give us classes that use mehcanics in the game already so we can get them into play as quickly as possible (which I'm sure means a minimum of six months :D).

Plus, you add all the delays of monks and druids with the lack of communication on turbines part, and you have a fairly upset player base, as we can all see (read a few of tekn0mage's above posts for reference).

The wallpapers.... Uhhhh, yeah. Not much to be said there that you haven't already. Couldn't we have gotten at least a few that weren't rehashed? Oh well.

tekn0mage
01-06-2008, 07:26 PM
Scare I actually agree with you on this point too. Apologies for pulling out the shotgun yet again and blasting Turbine. Maybe in between monks / druids we could have got something else to play with instead. How about a core class to the Eberron world, an Artificer?

Don't tell me... I know what you're thinking that it's already been stated as 'Coming Soon(tm)' ... we all know what that means.

You can freakin forget about seeing Artificers this year. No way no how. I think many of us are just tired of excuses, tired of the lack of innovation from Turbine. These are all things that should have been accomplished two years into the game now.

Aesop
01-06-2008, 07:29 PM
I'm not sure I see Artificers coming out at all with what it seems like the Item Creation System might be...


Aesop

Scarecrow
01-07-2008, 01:51 AM
I'm not sure I see Artificers coming out at all with what it seems like the Item Creation System might be...
Aesop

Agreed. I don't think we'll be seeing artificers at all. I was looking through the class from the Eberron campaign book, and I just don't see it happening. If monks and druids are proving that difficult, forget about the artificer.

But the Ninja, Favored Soul, Warmage, Healer, Swashbuckler, and the Hexblade are all ready to go. Lets see them soon.

dispair
01-10-2008, 02:18 AM
how about the drows cleric, you know the ones that cast dark spells instead of divine ones, simple to, instead of heal its harm, as well as curse instead of bless, could also do shamans this way with some sorcerer spells.

and do any of you know anthing about the blood mages? they take hp instead of mana to cast their spells and have many of their own spells as well.

can we get a necromancer in this as well? im new to this game but these are some classes i would like to see in the future.

also an enchanter, one that is loaded with buffs and item enchantments, permenant and temperary

MysticTheurge
01-10-2008, 07:29 AM
how about the drows cleric, you know the ones that cast dark spells instead of divine ones, simple to, instead of heal its harm, as well as curse instead of bless, could also do shamans this way with some sorcerer spells.

Clerics can pretty much do this already.

Yaga_Nub
01-10-2008, 09:27 AM
Clerics can pretty much do this already.

Could he mean that the cause/harm line of spells is automatically given instead of the cure/heal line?

Ustice
01-10-2008, 04:26 PM
Could he mean that the cause/harm line of spells is automatically given instead of the cure/heal line?

I think so. Basically this is just an Evil or Neutral Cleric. (Maybe even Good in Eberron, not sure, but I don't see why not.) Ya, this would be nice/easy to add except for the control/rebuke undead. It shouldn't be THAT bad to do since the Control Undead spell is implemented, and rebuke undead is basically the same as turning.

Since we have crafting coming, I would think that Artificers wouldn't be that bad. I was looking at their Infusions, and most of them use existing mechanics. Basically they are of 3 varieties: Construct affecting, Buffs which can be used on items, Magic Item ability emulation. The first two basically just already exist without needing to be altered. The Magic Item ability emulation could just go on the character on the item directly. Those would just require a selection UI (like resist energy) that allows for a specific version to be used.

Artificer:
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: Haggle (instead of Appraise), Concentration, Craft (If we get that), Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Use Magic Device
Skill Points Per Level: 4 + Int modifier

Level 1:
Artisan Bonus (Bonus to UMD Check based on Craft Feats, if feats are not available, use based on Artificer level)
Item Creation: Add UMD check to crafting (not THAT big of a deal).
Scribe Scroll
Level 2:
Brew Potion
Level 3:
Craft Wonderous Item
Level 4:
Craft Homunculus
Bonus Feat
Level 5:
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Retain Essence: Destroy Magic items to gain crafting points (used instead of XP for Magic Item creation)
Level 6:
Metamagic Spell Trigger: make icons for each meta-magic effect that works only on Wands, but uses additional charges
Level 7:
Craft Wand
Level 8:
Bonus Feat
Level 9:
Craft Rod (Okay just remove this one until Rods are in the game)
Level 11:
Metamagic Spell Completion: like Metamagic Spell Trigger uses icons for each metamagic effect that only works on scrolls. Adds to the UMD check. As an alternate system, could use this same system for Metamagic Spell Trigger.
Level 12:
Craft Staff (Same as Craft Rod. Just remove for now.)
Bonus Feat
Level 13:
Skill Mastery: +4 to UMD check
Level 14:
Forge Ring


Assuming that we get the crafting feats, this one is well worth the minimal effort that it would require

Possible Enhancement Line ideas:

Use less charges on Metamagic Spell Trigger ability.
heighten wand's effectiveness similar to wizards and clerics
lower cost of crafting (time, XP, gold, depending on the system used)
bonus to repair like clerics
disable device / UMD skill boost
Charisma bonus
Faster casting of Infusions (most take a minute in PnP to cast, so I think that a 15 second casting time would not be unreasonable.)
bonus to attack/damage against constructs

Tyrande
01-10-2008, 04:37 PM
Favored soul
d8 hit dice
skills: 2 + int modifier
skill list: concentration, diplomacy, heal, jump
proficient with light and medium armour, shields, simple weapons
Wisdom for spells, determines difficulty.
Casts from the divine spell list, but uses spells like a sorcerer. Has access to all divine spells.
BAB: Rogue BAB
Saves: All three

level 3: weapon focus
level 5: Energy resistance 10 (must choose to what energy type)
level 10: Energy resistance 10 (must choose type)
level 12: weapon specialization

How about items that gives out spell points? They doubled for sorceror. Are they doubling for Favored Soul as well?
I thought it would have to limit the spells known of a favored soul to be able to cast like a sorceror.

Scarecrow
01-10-2008, 08:57 PM
How about items that gives out spell points? They doubled for sorceror. Are they doubling for Favored Soul as well?
I thought it would have to limit the spells known of a favored soul to be able to cast like a sorceror.

My guess would be that they would get sp just like a sorc from spell point items. A favored soul is similar to a sorcerer in choosing his spells. He has full access to all the spells on the divine spell list, but only gets to choose a handfull, like the sorcerer does with the arcane list. He casts those same few spells over and over again.

I can't wait to see what sort of favored sould builds we'd see. Searing light specialists, holy smite spamming, who knows. Will be fun to see.

Ustice
01-11-2008, 07:34 AM
Favored Souls would be great at both offense or healing. Can you imagine a healer with the SP and casting times of a Sorcerer?

Scarecrow
01-12-2008, 12:39 PM
Favored Souls would be great at both offense or healing. Can you imagine a healer with the SP and casting times of a Sorcerer?

Yeah, it'll be really cool to see. Healing build favored souls, FS without healing spells at all. I can't wait to see the varaition.

About Artificers. I think the main problem with them currently is that we just don't know how the new crafting system is going to work. It sounds like it's not going to be too similar to what we know in PnP, so I'm curious how that's going to affect our chances of getting Artificers at all. Once that comes out, I think we'll know just how viable or not viable the artificer will be. Can't wait for the new mod so we can find out though.

Aspenor
01-12-2008, 12:52 PM
So could artificers cast spells like repair spells? Like...mass repair...for all warforged parties?

Scarecrow
01-12-2008, 01:22 PM
So could artificers cast spells like repair spells? Like...mass repair...for all warforged parties?

Artificers are... somewhat difficult. They have abilities called infusions. Somewhat like buffs that work like spells. You can buff items, armour, weapons, etc. They also make stuff very well. Many of thier class abilities are about crafting or making things (potions, scrolls, wands, etc.) They are also somewhat skill oriented. Warforged Artificers are fun, because are wf is technically a walking item. He can buff himself, repair himself, etc.

I haven't mentioned them too much in this thread because I think they'd be tough to implement. But Ustice has a decent lisitng above that could work.

Rambin
02-09-2008, 11:29 AM
Monks have a tentative release date of April 2008. Druids are still unknown at this time when they will be released. My information comes from the comments of one of the game producers in a video that can be viewed on gametrailers.com

EspyLacopa
02-09-2008, 12:57 PM
Favored Soul: Casts divine spells, but like a sorcerer. Spells are already in the game, should be easy enough to put in. I would totally play a Favored Soul. Fun divine spells, without the stigma of being pigeonholed into the Healer role. However, the interesting facet of this class is that the bonus sp and ability to cast the spells is based on Charisma, whereas the save DC against the spells is based on Wisdom. Many of the new spellcasting base classes do this in fact. Remains to be seen if they'd implement the Wings they get at lv17 in PnP.

However, I would personally prefer to play a Spirit Shaman. It's like some crazy conglomeration of Druid and Sorcerer. Spell list of Druid, spellcasting of Sorcerer, and capable of switching spells at any shrine. Downside? Even fewer spells slots, and uses both Wisdom and Charisma for spellcasting. At most 3 slots per level, and only 2 lv9 slots.


Spirit Guide(Grants Alertness feat, +2 spot/listen), Wild Empathy(same as Ranger ability)
Chastise Spirits, clickie ability used to damage spirits (incorporeal undead, fey, and such), usable number of times based on charisma modifier (3+Cha)
Blessing of the spirits: unlimited self only clickie Protection from Evil, unlimited duration, bonuses to Spirits instead of Evil.
Follow the Guide: extra save chance against Enchantments, similar tech as Slippery Mind for rogues.
Ghost Warrior: All weapons/armor treated as Ghost Touch.
Warding of the Spirits: 1/day clickie Magic Circle against Evil, protects from Spirits instead of Evil
Spirit Form 1/day, clickie ability to grant oneself incorporeal traits. (Immunity to nonmagical attack forms, 50% miss chance to magical attack forms, lose armor/natural armor, gain deflection bonus equal to charisma mod)
Guide Magic: ????? Not sure about this. . .no spells in DDO with Concentration as a Duration.
Recall Spirit: 1/day Rez, only usable on targets who recently died (within say, 30 seconds perhaps). Not sure how to code this. *no penalty when rezzed this way* Creature is restored to -1 hp and stabile.
Spirit Form 2/day
Weaken Spirits: clickie ability used to debuff spirits, uses same clickie pool as Chastise Spirits. This removes miss chance from incorporeal spirits, removes spell resistance, as well as any damage reduction derived from Magic, Silver, Cold Iron, Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos.
Spirit Journey: Shadow Walk clickie, 1/day
Favored of the spirits: Self Auto-Heal (150 HP) if hit by attack that kills or incapacitates. Function Once per use of clickie. Each clickie consumes expensive and/or rare material component. (in PnP, it costs 1000 xp points)
Spirit form 3/day, Spirit who walks: Type changes to Fey, gains DR 5/Cold Iron
Spirits are as follows: (the ones in game at least)
Incorporeal Undead
Elementals