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kengsxr
12-14-2007, 02:02 PM
I would really like to know the reasoning behind the new death/item damage penalty system. Please no speculation, there has been plenty of that, I would like a reasonable explination of the thinking/reasoning behind the new system.

Oreg
12-14-2007, 02:04 PM
Agreed. My questions got lost in the big thread but the bottom line is - Why are we doing any of this? What is wrong with the current xp death system? Sure it is meaningless when capped but we won't be capped forever. Heck give me 5k death xp at level 15. I'd rather have that than item decay worse than it currently is.

Razvan
12-14-2007, 02:06 PM
death should matter...

when the penalty is loosing xp that you get at the end of the quest that means there is no penalty, right?

So they want to make death more significant! Not just a transition from alive do dead to alive again with nothing to show for!

Oreg
12-14-2007, 02:14 PM
death should matter...

when the penalty is loosing xp that you get at the end of the quest that means there is no penalty, right?

So they want to make death more significant! Not just a transition from alive do dead to alive again with nothing to show for!

Seriously? You believe this?

Lets say you are level 15 and 200,000 short of 16. The quest is worth 20k. You die once and get hit for 5k debt and a net gain on completion of 15k. 20k > 15k

I agree that when capped it is meaningless but otherwise it isn't.

kengsxr
12-14-2007, 02:17 PM
please, no speculation, lets stay on point and see if we can get an anwser from the DEV team.
thanks

Laith
12-14-2007, 02:17 PM
Sure it is meaningless when capped but we won't be capped forever.
Death shouldn't have waves of "meaning-alot" and "meaning-less". It should be a similar concern no matter what your XP bar reads.

XP penalties alone aren't sufficient.

Razvan
12-14-2007, 02:17 PM
Seriously? You believe this?

Lets say you are level 15 and 200,000 short of 16. The quest is worth 20k. You die once and get hit for 5k debt and a net gain on completion of 15k. 20k > 15k

I agree that when capped it is meaningless but otherwise it isn't.


XP only matters, in any game btw, if you have a timeline to reach X level. Otherwise, it doesn't matter since there will always be an upper limit to your total XP. Thus, even if I lose all my xp it still doesn't matter. I am going to reach the same cap as you only a bit later!

Laith
12-14-2007, 02:20 PM
please, no speculation, lets stay on point and see if we can get an anwser from the DEV team.
thanks:)

ArkoHighStar
12-14-2007, 02:20 PM
please, no speculation, lets stay on point and see if we can get an anwser from the DEV team.
thanks

look at the thread or use dev tracker they have made several comments on theor belief that as we went higher level it was no longer workable. Eladrin stated this about 3 weeks ago, when he first mentioned they were looking at it

Oreg
12-14-2007, 02:20 PM
Raz,

Yeah thats fine. That's not what you said though. Thanks for the "clarification".

ArkoHighStar
12-14-2007, 02:21 PM
please, no speculation, lets stay on point and see if we can get an anwser from the DEV team.
thanks


ok read this
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1475684&postcount=454

edited for Oreg

GHOSTRYDER
12-14-2007, 02:22 PM
Seriously? You believe this?

Lets say you are level 15 and 200,000 short of 16. The quest is worth 20k. You die once and get hit for 5k debt and a net gain on completion of 15k. 20k > 15k

I agree that when capped it is meaningless but otherwise it isn't.

Powergamers will be capped within week of the mod. This means after that they will have no reason NOT to die until the next cap increase, the new proposal makes for a good reason to try to avoid death whether capped or not...probably the way it should be, death should always come at some cost, not just when leveling, which a decent percentage of the population spends VERY little time doing

On the other hand, the xp penalty is much more severe for NON power players who only get to play a few times a week, and take a longer months and months to level their characters. The new system won't impede their progress so much, and frustrate them by rewarding them with very little or no xp for a quest gone bad.

ArkoHighStar
12-14-2007, 02:24 PM
oh wait how about the first sentence of the anouncement

Major systems changes in Module Six: The Thirteenth Eclipse include alterations to the repair system and the effects caused by death. We’ve received overwhelming feedback related to these issues over the past two years which identify them as the systems most closely tied to negative play experiences, and we’d like to take this time to address these issues.

Oreg
12-14-2007, 02:24 PM
ok read this
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1475684&postcount=454

You slipped in between me so i had to edit. Wasn't referring to your post.

GHOSTRYDER
12-14-2007, 02:25 PM
please, no speculation, lets stay on point and see if we can get an anwser from the DEV team.
thanks

soooooooo.... you ONLY wanted your original post and a reply from the devs? good luck with that, as for speculation, it's all WE have, if you want any replies youre going to get speculation

Oreg
12-14-2007, 02:26 PM
see below

Oreg
12-14-2007, 02:30 PM
Powergamers will be capped within week of the mod. This means after that they will have no reason NOT to die until the next cap increase, the new proposal makes for a good reason to try to avoid death whether capped or not...probably the way it should be, death should always come at some cost, not just when leveling, which a decent percentage of the population spends VERY little time doing

On the other hand, the xp penalty is much more severe for NON power players who only get to play a few times a week, and take a longer months and months to level their characters. The new system won't impede their progress so much, and frustrate them by rewarding them with very little or no xp for a quest gone bad.

I couldn't agree more. I also believe that this will push another group of people out of the game. There may be many people who believe that this is the right thing to do. There will be those who don't like it and will leave. It will not attract people to this game. Net: loss of community. Bad!

GHOSTRYDER
12-14-2007, 02:31 PM
I agree with this. I also think that you will never find a balanced death penalty for power players and non power players.

i agree with this as well, but a system such as what they are implementing is probably about as close as youre ever going to get.

GHOSTRYDER
12-14-2007, 02:35 PM
I couldn't agree more. I also believe that this will push another group of people out of the game. There may be many people who believe that this is the right thing to do. There will be those who don't like it and will leave. It will not attract people to this game. Net: loss of community. Bad!

well i dont see why a game's death penalty would ever attract people to the game, and i dont see why this one would force people to leave, why would temporary item wear and a short duration de-buff be that big of a deal? especially when they already stated that they are decreasing the chance of temporary item wear becoming permanent damage by 50%, so the amount of total permanent item damage will probably be unchanged. If youre saying it will **** power gamers off, most of them are probably wearing bound raid loot in half their gear slots, which will have 0% chance of taking perm damage.

Also while it's not permadeath, at least this gives new meaning to "staying alive", might be more fun, challenging, and exciting to actually have to worry about it just a LITTLE bit.

Razvan
12-14-2007, 02:36 PM
I agree that when capped it is meaningless but otherwise it isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTRYDER http://ddoimages.turbine.com/forums/images/buttons/red/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1475699#post1475699)
Powergamers will be capped within week of the mod. This means after that they will have no reason NOT to die until the next cap increase, the new proposal makes for a good reason to try to avoid death whether capped or not...probably the way it should be, death should always come at some cost, not just when leveling, which a decent percentage of the population spends VERY little time doing

On the other hand, the xp penalty is much more severe for NON power players who only get to play a few times a week, and take a longer months and months to level their characters. The new system won't impede their progress so much, and frustrate them by rewarding them with very little or no xp for a quest gone bad.

I couldn't agree more. I also believe that this will push another group of people out of the game. There may be many people who believe that this is the right thing to do. There will be those who don't like it and will leave. It will not attract people to this game. Net: loss of community. Bad!


Make up your mind: are you on the "xp loss is not enough!" or on the "death penalty shouldn't be change" train?? Because I think you just agreed there with someone from the "other side"! I think Ghostryder was saying that the new system will level the playing filed and not frustrate those trying to level, while giving the capped chars something to think about when they die...

kengsxr
12-14-2007, 02:39 PM
what I wanted to know was what specifically was broken that needed fixing and the reasoning behind it, not a blanket statement.

GHOSTRYDER
12-14-2007, 02:40 PM
Make up your mind: are you on the "xp loss is not enough!" or on the "death penalty shouldn't be change" train?? Because I think you just agreed there with someone from the "other side"! I think Ghostryder was saying that the new system will level the playing filed and not frustrate those trying to level, while giving the capped chars something to think about when they die...

Correct, i am in favor of the new system. Not for personal preference but from an overall game standpoint.

ArkoHighStar
12-14-2007, 02:41 PM
another one
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1475758&postcount=459

Oreg
12-14-2007, 02:42 PM
yeah I was selectively agreeing without clarifying portions :)


Bottom line is I just wanted a solid answer to the question Why Change?

I do think it will be irrelevant to the power levellers considering Ghost's point about bound loot. I just don't see that the current system progression was all that bad. I certainly don't see how the proposed system is "better". I see people getting ****ed off because somehow it will affect them negatively and they will leave. My frustration stems from this. Every "tweak" like this ****es somebody off and they leave. We don't have enough playerbase to continue these losses every time a mod comes out.

ArkoHighStar
12-14-2007, 02:43 PM
what I wanted to know was what specifically was broken that needed fixing and the reasoning behind it, not a blanket statement.

kengsxr they have created an official thread to discuss this and are posting in it even as we type. I would go over and read it as they will not post in this thread other than to say please refer to the official thread

Razvan
12-14-2007, 02:44 PM
Correct, i am in favor of the new system. Not for personal preference but from an overall game standpoint.


That one was for Oreg. I got your point Ghost :)

Lorien_the_First_One
12-14-2007, 03:45 PM
please, no speculation, lets stay on point and see if we can get an anwser from the DEV team.
thanks

What makes you think they will tell you more here than in the thread where the dev that designed it is reading every post and responding every couple hours?

kengsxr
12-14-2007, 03:51 PM
Dumb luck?

Serpent
12-14-2007, 03:57 PM
Here's a response. It's about removing items from game, whether it be by having them become damaged more faster, to break them. Or by having them become bound so when at later levels we get new gear our old gear only good for Steppy (hope you all get that reference).

That is why they are doing. The Death effect is only a cause of this.

sigtrent
12-14-2007, 05:10 PM
what I wanted to know was what specifically was broken that needed fixing and the reasoning behind it, not a blanket statement.

Tough nuggies :)

They explained the basic reason. Lots of people didn't like the XP loss system so they came up with a new one that responds to the primary issues people rasied.
#1. You could die all day in a quest and it didn't matter much if you were capped. (mostly applies to hard core)
#2. It was disheartening to play and move your XP backwards rather than forwards. (mostly applies to new or casual players)

The did debt regen as the first attempt and apparently it didn't have the desired effect.

Turbine doesn't have time to come and awnser every question you have exactly the way you want it answered as an individual customer. Read the announcement and it is pretty clear why they made a change.

Tolero
12-14-2007, 05:14 PM
Hey there everyone! Make sure you head up to Developer Eladrin's thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129727) so he can see your questions readily :) in some cases, he may have already answered your question, so be sure to check the dev tracker often!