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Eladrin
12-13-2007, 02:35 PM
Major systems changes in Module Six: The Thirteenth Eclipse include alterations to the repair system and the effects caused by death. We’ve received overwhelming feedback related to these issues over the past two years which identify them as the systems most closely tied to negative play experiences, and we’d like to take this time to address these issues.

The changes are detailed below:
Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
Repair costs for Dragonscale items have been dropped to 3 relics of the appropriate type.
Items may be bound at a “Stone of Change”, which can be found in the Marketplace next to the Lordsmarch Bank or in The Twelve, at the base of their tower. Take your item and place it into the Stone of Change, and add (Minimum Level Requirement of the item ^ 2) Khyber Dragonshard Fragments into the device. (Khyber Dragonshard Fragments are commonly found in breakable objects.) An example of the process of binding an object is in my next post.
Players no longer lose experience on death.
At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability, or:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14+
0% 1% 2% 3% 3% 4% 5% 6% 6% 7% 8% 9% 9% 10%

As death is a traumatic experience, characters now acquire a debuff after being returned from the dead, based on the number of times the character has died since the last time they rested. The character will gain one temporary negative level and an additional -2 to saves vs. Fear effects per death since their last rest, but these are capped at ((level - 1) / 2, round down, maximum 5 temporary negative levels) so you cannot lose half your levels to temporary negative levels from death - a third level character can only be affected by one, while an eleventh or higher level character can collect all five. These penalties degrade at a rate of one stage per minute.

First death since resting: (Level 3+)
Touched by Dolurrh
"Your recent deaths have left a mark on your soul. For the next minute you have a negative level and penalty to Will saves against Fear effects. These will degrade over time, but cannot otherwise be removed except by resting or effects that specifically remove the trauma of death."
This has a one minute duration after which it is removed.
Second death since resting: (Level 5+)
Marked by Dolurrh
"Your recent deaths have left a mark on your soul. For the next two minutes you have two negative levels and penalty to Will saves against Fear effects. These will degrade over time, but cannot otherwise be removed except by resting or effects that specifically remove the trauma of death."
This has a one minute duration, after which it turns into Touched by Dolurrh, for a total debuff of 2 minutes.
Third death since resting: (Level 7+)
Scarred by Dolurrh
"Your multiple recent deaths have left a mark on your soul. For the next three minutes you have three negative levels and penalty to Will saves against Fear effects. These will degrade over time, but cannot otherwise be removed except by resting or effects that specifically remove the trauma of death."
This has a one minute duration, after which it turns into Marked by Dolurrh, for a total debuff of 3 minutes.
Fourth death since resting: (Level 9+)
Claimed by Dolurrh
"Your repeated recent deaths have left a mark on your soul. For the next four minutes you have four negative levels and penalty to Will saves against Fear effects. These will degrade over time, but cannot otherwise be removed except by resting or effects that specifically remove the trauma of death."
This has a one minute duration, after which it turns into Scarred by Dolurrh, for a total debuff of 4 minutes.
Fifth or subsequent deaths since resting: (Level 11+)
Owned by Dolurrh:
"Your many recent deaths have left a mark on your soul. For the next five minutes you have five negative levels and penalty to Will saves against Fear effects. These will degrade over time, but cannot otherwise be removed except by resting or effects that specifically remove the trauma of death."
This has a one minute duration, after which it turns into Claimed by Dolurrh, for a total debuff of 5 minutes.

The Cleric/Paladin enhancement Unyielding Sovereignty has been modified to remove all negative levels and current death penalties (including the Black Abbot's renamed "Deathgrip of Dolurrh"), but only resting will reset your current death counter.


Note: All values, durations, and effects are still subject to change prior to the release of Module Six. Risia feedback is especially welcome!

Eladrin
12-13-2007, 02:36 PM
http://home.comcast.net/~aseth/DDO/Picture01.JPG
My uber Wise Mask of Bluffing!

http://home.comcast.net/~aseth/DDO/Picture02.JPG
A lot of Khyber Dragonshard Fragments, and a view of the Stone of Change.

http://home.comcast.net/~aseth/DDO/Picture04.JPG
Put them in the Stone of Change and activate it! It's smart enough to only take as many shards as it needs - 81 for my minimum level 9 item.

http://home.comcast.net/~aseth/DDO/Picture05.JPG
Ritual Success!

http://home.comcast.net/~aseth/DDO/Picture06.JPG
It's bound, and now forever immune to permanent damage.

WeaselKing
12-13-2007, 02:42 PM
Items may be bound at a “Stone of Change”, which can be found in the Marketplace next to the Lordsmarch Bank or in The Twelve, at the base of their tower. Take your item and place it into the Stone of Change, and add (Minimum Level Requirement of the item ^ 2) Khyber Dragonshard Fragments into the device. (Khyber Dragonshard Fragments are commonly found in breakable objects.) An example of the process of binding an object is in my next post.
]

Suspicions confirmed.

Avonwey
12-13-2007, 02:44 PM
I just wanted to mention that you should be very careful when placing items on the Stone of Change.

I was trying it out last night, and I guess I stepped in some Halfling along the way. And now I have a stupid halfing bound to me.

bigal4458
12-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Suspicions confirmed.


I got that too, lol.

But i did also notice that this death penalty closely resembles that from the LotRO death penalty. I do however think that for capped characters, it will be become more of a deterrant...unelss there is a Paladin in the group.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 02:46 PM
That's a lot of dragonshards! :eek:

Also, any chance you guys are going to make Siberys Shards yellow and Khyber Shards purple like they ought to be? :D

Edit -- Oh, and, finally, a reason to actually take Unyielding Sovereignty.

Which brings up another question. How are the different tiers of Raise abilities going to affect the death penalty? That is what's different between Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection?

parvo
12-13-2007, 02:47 PM
I really like the new Death penalty. Not quite nearly good as deleting the character, but hey, baby steps :)

WeaselKing
12-13-2007, 02:47 PM
I got that too, lol.

But i did also notice that this death penalty closely resembles that from the LotRO death penalty. I do however think that for capped characters, it will be become more of a deterrant...unless there is a Paladin in the group.

This almost makes me want to roll a paladin.....................almost.

Coldin
12-13-2007, 02:48 PM
I gotta say, any debuff that simply wears off over time merely encourages players to wait out the penalty.

Eladrin
12-13-2007, 02:48 PM
That's a lot of dragonshards! :eek:
It's a lot of dragonshard fragments. Those are common in Xen'drik.

Some of the other recipes available in Module 6 involve the combination of Dragonshard Fragments and small dragonshards into more powerful ones. (Those flawed siberys shards now have a use for you higher level characters!)

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 02:49 PM
It's a lot of dragonshard fragments. Those are common in Xen'drik.

Ah good.

(And I edited in another question if you could take a look.)

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 02:50 PM
Thank you very much Eladrin for the details!!!

Now that I have read them, I can say I like it even more now that I know the details!

Looking forward to seeing this in action!

I see a potential Enhance respec for my CLR!!!!


Hmmm, any see the UI changes to Inventory?

REDDEVIL56
12-13-2007, 02:50 PM
What if I bind an item that allready has perm. damage but still works?

bigal4458
12-13-2007, 02:50 PM
I gotta say, any debuff that simply wears off over time merely encourages players to wait out the penalty.

Well at least it will slow party's down, allowing some of us to enjoy the content longer.

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 02:53 PM
Hmm...that doesn't seem so bad. Five minutes max for five repeated deaths since resting? That's fair. Just tell me you aren't reducing the number of available shrines in game! ;)

I rescind most of my complaints from my post in The new Death Penalty and Pemanent damage thread. Thanks for so quickly getting us the details on this, Eladrin. Relatively straightforward system.

Question, is it possible to "unbind" items, including bound raid loot?

Qzipoun
12-13-2007, 02:53 PM
That's a lot of dragonshards! :eek:

Well, a lot of "fragments" for all we know all those fragments might not be a whole shard ;)

Also, any chance you guys are going to make Siberys Shards yellow and Khyber Shards purple like they ought to be? :D


Edit -- Oh, and, finally, a reason to actually take Unyielding Sovereignty.

Depends, is it still on a 20 minute cooldown? I really think it should be changed to 1 charge every 20 minutes OR per shrine, using it once a quest is not very useful :(


Which brings up another question. How are the different tiers of Raise abilities going to affect the death penalty? That is what's different between Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection?

I am not aware of what "true resurrection" is as a spell, but it would be nice if the higher level ones gave less penalty (I guess we'll have to check it out on risia)

Lillitheris
12-13-2007, 02:54 PM
Well at least it will slow party's down, allowing some of us to enjoy the content longer.

Please. Please tell me you are joking. Is waiting around doing nothing enjoyable? :confused:

Thank you for the info Eladrin.
But I must say that I don't like the death penalties at all. Or the grind for the Dragonshard fragments. Tough cookies :(

QuantumFX
12-13-2007, 02:54 PM
Risia feedback is especially welcome!

OK, the current Risia build is dated 10/16/07...

And I still can't get into the Twelve area to test the Stone of Change there...

Hint Hint :D

WeaselKing
12-13-2007, 02:54 PM
I gotta say, any debuff that simply wears off over time merely encourages players to wait out the penalty.

In theory, yes and this may actually work in a lot of situations but if the party all wipes but the cleric and the mobs are still alive this won't be as easy to deal with. Similar to the upcoming incap regen, in some cases you will just wait and go along your merry way but in other instances you will come back to life in the middle of an angry mob who will gladly kill you again.

Qzipoun
12-13-2007, 02:54 PM
Some of the other recipes available in Module 6 involve the combination of Dragonshard Fragments and small dragonshards into more powerful ones. (Those flawed siberys shards now have a use for you higher level characters!)

Sweet! :D I knew it was a good idea to keep them!

Vorn
12-13-2007, 02:55 PM
So the level nine item ought require 81 shards (9^2=81) vice 1000?

EDIT--also, will item defence enhancement provide any mitigation of the death damage or is it only for general purpose wear and tear?

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 02:55 PM
I gotta say, any debuff that simply wears off over time merely encourages players to wait out the penalty.

Well, it usually takes a minute or two to "refill" HP and SP and run back to the quest, or to the point where you died or the group wiped, so most of this is taken care of in transit back to the quest.

Raithe
12-13-2007, 02:55 PM
We’ve received overwhelming feedback related to these issues over the past two years which identify them as the systems most closely tied to negative play experiences, and we’d like to take this time to address these issues.


Two comments:

1) I'm having a hard time seeing how anything offered here is going to reduce negative play experience. Is this going to make people work as a team, or are they simply going to bind all their items, play selfishly, then cry loudly later when they can't transfer their vorpal to their new build-of-the-month character?

2) Personally, I find the number of negative play experiences to be significantly lower than the number of ho-hum play experiences. IMO, something to be excited about would have been preferable to something to be mildly less annoyed over.

moorewr
12-13-2007, 02:56 PM
Will this be ready to play with on Risia when the new public zones go in?

Dariun
12-13-2007, 02:56 PM
waiting around doing nothing enjoyable? :confused:


:confused: Why would you slow down because of 1 negative level for 1 minute?

Talcyndl
12-13-2007, 02:56 PM
This almost makes me want to roll a paladin.....................almost.

THe nice thing for current Pallys is that with the likely lowering of some of the other Pally enhancements (mentioned by one of the developers in another thread), folks should be able to more easily afford the Unyielding Sovereignty enhancement.

Qzipoun
12-13-2007, 02:56 PM
Hmmm I noticed there was a "blocking DR" on eladrin's pics, is that in game right now? Never noticed it...

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 02:56 PM
Hmm...that doesn't seem so bad. Five minutes max for five repeated deaths since resting? That's fair. Just tell me you aren't reducing the number of available shrines is game! ;)

I rescind most of my complaints from my post in The new Death Penalty and Pemanent damage thread. Thanks for so quickly getting us the details on this, Eladrin. Relatively straightforward system.

Question, is it possible to "unbind" items, including bound raid loot?

While I could see the use to unbind a player bound item, I honestly doubt that we will have the availability to unbind Raid loot.

Fallout
12-13-2007, 02:57 PM
I like the no damage to bound items when repair. I can kill oozes with impunity with my SoS now.

Yvonne_Blacksword
12-13-2007, 02:57 PM
huh...
interesting....

8 items bindable?

KoboldKiller
12-13-2007, 02:57 PM
Ahh finally some Pali love, I think.

moorewr
12-13-2007, 02:58 PM
Edit -- Oh, and, finally, a reason to actually take Unyielding Sovereignty.

Yeah, no kidding! I think my Elf cleric/rogue just had a conversion experience.. farewell Dol Durn!

ccheath776
12-13-2007, 02:58 PM
Items may be bound at a “Stone of Change”, which can be found in the Marketplace next to the Lordsmarch Bank or in The Twelve, at the base of their tower

Looks like the cat is out of the bag. The twelve is opening up!!!!

Dariun
12-13-2007, 02:58 PM
I like the proposed changes. Just my 2 cp.

This made me laugh:



Owned by Dolurrh

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 02:59 PM
Hmmm I noticed there was a "blocking DR" on eladrin's pics, is that in game right now? Never noticed it...

I saw it too....

Hmmmm

:)

Eladrin
12-13-2007, 03:01 PM
Ack! Every time I hit preview there are more questions!

Which brings up another question. How are the different tiers of Raise abilities going to affect the death penalty? That is what's different between Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection?
The higher level resurrection effects raise you at a higher hit point percentage, as they have for some time now.


What if I bind an item that allready has perm. damage but still works?
At this point, it will no longer take any more permanent damage. We'll be looking at ways to repair permanent damage on bound items in the (hopefully near) future.


I gotta say, any debuff that simply wears off over time merely encourages players to wait out the penalty.
Initial internal testing had the higher level debuffs decay, but "stage one" lasted until you had a chance to rest. It led to lots of recalling out from dungeons, which isn't something we want to inflict on people.


Or the grind for the Dragonshard fragments.
Sufficient Khyber Dragonshard fragments for binding purposes should be easy to find if you ransack (as in "smash everything breakable") dungeons. They have a chance of occurring anywhere gems currently do.


Question, is it possible to "unbind" items, including bound raid loot?
No plans to unbind objects at this time.


So the level nine item ought require 81 shards (9^2=81) vice 1000?
Yes, my Wise Hat of Bluffing took 81 shards. The Eldritch Device is smart enough to only eat what it needs, if you toss a stack of 1000 in there.


will item defence enhancement provide any mitigation of the death damage or is it only for general purpose wear and tear?
Those enhancements are for general wear and tear. Once you die, your enhancements and feats are disabled. (Since you're, well, dead.) I'll look into seeing if we can clarify the descriptions on those though.


Depends, is it still on a 20 minute cooldown?
Unyielding Sovereignty has been on a 10 minute cooldown for some time now.


I like the no damage to bound items when repair. I can kill oozes with impunity with my SoS now.
It'll still break, but won't take permanent damage when repaired.

ccheath776
12-13-2007, 03:02 PM
Major ...]

One issue eladrin.

It said minuses to fear effects. But what if your a paladin, immune to fear effects?
Does that mean that particular effect wont harm you then?

Also what about greater restore? Will that remove negative levels similar to how it works now?

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 03:02 PM
Two comments:

1) I'm having a hard time seeing how anything offered here is going to reduce negative play experience. Is this going to make people work as a team, or are they simply going to bind all their items, play selfishly, then cry loudly later when they can't transfer their vorpal to their new build-of-the-month character?

Aside from people getting arsed about it on the forums (which is just immature, IMHO), what's it to you if they want to transfer their vorpal to their flavor of the month? That's their perogative and their right. How does that affect you again? You can add notes to people on your "friends" list - why not mark a selfish character and avoid them in the future if it bothers you?

Also, you can never make people play together as a team - it's either in the person to do so or it isn't. Try grouping with people you are familiar with that are team players and weather the occassional bad PUG.

Wizzly_Bear
12-13-2007, 03:03 PM
el,
while not particularly excited about these changes, i do think they seem interesting and may like them. thanks for working to make the game more enjoyable, whatever the outcome eventually is :)


I like the no damage to bound items when repair. I can kill oozes with impunity with my SoS now.

he said no perma-damage. your sos will still be damaged, even broken, but when you go to repair, it will go to full strength with no permanent damage.

GramercyRiff
12-13-2007, 03:03 PM
I gotta say, any debuff that simply wears off over time merely encourages players to wait out the penalty.

There are times when waiting out the death penalty won't be an option, but I agree for the most part.

Also, will negative levels affect spellcasting as they should, ie you lose actual spell slots?


If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

If not, then the penalty affects non spellcasters in a more severe way, as they rely on attack bonus, skills, saving throws, and hit points more. Just losing spell points in today's environment isn't really a penalty at all, as casters recall to get sp or drink the sp pots. Actually taking away their spells; now that is a penalty.

The jury is still out on whether I like this change. It's actually a really good idea, though I'm not sold on the duration you've chosen for the timer. It seems a bit too long to me. Adding the caveat that Clerics and Paladins can remove the Touch-Owned with an enhancement, however, is probably the best thing you've done here.

Also, will we ever be able to UNBIND items?:D

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 03:04 PM
No plans to unbind objects at this time.


Thanks for responding so quickly, Eladrin!

"At this time", eh? Hmmm...;)

No worries, it's a very minor thing to me and I can go either way with it. It'd be nice to be able to unbind stuff, but no biggie if we can't.

So this means that once a previously unbound object becomes bound, it is stuck that way for the foreseeable future. Careful what you bind on who, guys!

Eladrin
12-13-2007, 03:06 PM
One issue eladrin.

It said minuses to fear effects. But what if your a paladin, immune to fear effects?
Does that mean that particular effect wont harm you then?

Also what about greater restore? Will that remove negative levels similar to how it works now?
Paladins are indeed essentially immune to penalties to saves vs. fear, as they're just flat out immune to fear. They're not immune to temporary negative levels though.

The temporary negative levels from the trauma of death can only be removed by effects that can specifically remove death penalties - at the moment, Unyielding Sovereignty is the only such effect.

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 03:06 PM
There are times when waiting out the death penalty won't be an option, but I agree for the most part.

Also, will negative levels affect spellcasting as they should, ie you lose actual spell slots?



If not, then the penalty affects non spellcasters in a more severe way, as they rely on attack bonus, skills, saving throws, and hit points more. Just losing spell points in today's environment isn't really a penalty at all, as casters recall to get sp or drink the sp pots. Actually taking away their spells; now that is a penalty.

Also, will we ever be able to UNBIND items?:D

Few posts up from yours, Eladrin stated;

No plans to unbind objects at this time.

ccheath776
12-13-2007, 03:06 PM
For all the doomsayers. Try this out before shouting just yet.
We need to find out if the neg level can be removed by other means, other than resting.

Also one neg level doesn't effect you very much, and it goes away on rest.
Nobody will be standing around waiting for it to go away in the same way nobody panics when someone gets a negative level from a beholder.
Ive played in MMO's with this system. Its really not going to effect many people or gameplay.
It will positively effect people trying to level as that aspect has just gotten much easier.

Just like the song "IM SO EXCITED..And I JUST CANT HIDE IT"

ccheath776
12-13-2007, 03:07 PM
Paladins are indeed essentially immune to penalties to saves vs. fear, as they're just flat out immune to fear. They're not immune to temporary negative levels though.

The temporary negative levels from the trauma of death can only be removed by effects that can specifically remove death penalties - at the moment, Unyielding Sovereignty is the only such effect.

Ok thats sound great.

DrAwkward
12-13-2007, 03:08 PM
Items may be bound at a “Stone of Change”, which can be found in the Marketplace next to the Lordsmarch Bank or in The Twelve, at the base of their tower.
And the only advantage is that it doesn't take permanent damage? Does binding it reduce the minumum level?
Can you unbind things? Are you intending to only allow customization on bound items?

At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear.
Yeah - that Finger of Death really did a number on my adamantine fullplate.

Pwned by Dolurrh:
^ Fixed it for ya.


I'll be taking all the CSW potions off my "panic" hotbar and replacing them with cheap gear to swap in when things go south. Since death is now free, better to save my stuff than try to save my bacon. These changes do make monk sound worth playing though - you can zerg naked all day with no repercussions at all.

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 03:10 PM
Paladins are indeed essentially immune to penalties to saves vs. fear, as they're just flat out immune to fear. They're not immune to temporary negative levels though.

The temporary negative levels from the trauma of death can only be removed by effects that can specifically remove death penalties - at the moment, Unyielding Sovereignty is the only such effect.

Excellent.

Continue, wait it out, or U.S. (at the moment), to remove the effects. I like that.

Eladrin, will resting remove one stage?

Laith
12-13-2007, 03:13 PM
even if casters wait out the neg. levels, won't they be left short on spellpoints?

GramercyRiff
12-13-2007, 03:14 PM
Few posts up from yours, Eladrin stated;

No plans to unbind objects at this time.

It could be that I was still typing my response while Eladrin posted, so I never saw it until I had already posted. Thanks for the heads up though.

Still didn't get answer on the effect negative levels have on spellcasters' spells though.

Also, wouldn't Greater Heroism make you immune to the penalty to will saves vs fear? Or does the penalty supercede this spell as it does restoration?

GrayOldDruid
12-13-2007, 03:16 PM
All of these are Great! Lots less painful that they need to be. I was hoping the timer would START at 5 min, not max out at 5 min. Dang zergers still don't have a good enough penalty, IMHO.

Excellent stuff and still amazing game! Thank you all.


Please. Please tell me you are joking. Is waiting around doing nothing enjoyable? :confused:


I hope YOU are joking.... Why would you wait around doing nothing? Its just One negative level for ONLY a minute. Haven't you ran the Necropolis ? The Orchard? Are you not used to negative levels by now? Do you just stand around whining until some cleric gives you a full restore or do you continue the quest? Or do you plan on dying often between using a rest shrine?

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 03:17 PM
It could be that I was still typing my response while Eladrin posted, so I never saw it until I had already posted. Thanks for the heads up though.

Still didn't get answer on the effect negative levels have on spellcasters' spells though.

Just trying to help...

Either El will answer or Risia will. Patence. Lots I want to know too...

:)

Raithe
12-13-2007, 03:18 PM
Aside from people getting arsed about it on the forums (which is just immature, IMHO), what's it to you if they want to transfer their vorpal to their flavor of the month? That's their perogative and their right. How does that affect you again? You can add notes to people on your "friends" list - why not mark a selfish character and avoid them in the future if it bothers you?

It doesn't affect me, as I am going to leave all of my items unbound. I like both item wear and being able to transfer items between characters that have some sort of positive relationship. (I don't transfer items between characters who don't have a relationship to each other.) I think you missed my point entirely. I was asking what possible positive benefits the death penalties were going to have on game play. IMO, a negative play experience is when people don't play as a team and we all wind up dying multiple times because people are either playing selfishly or won't adjust to the problem at hand. If someone has a different opinion about what a "negative play experience" means, and how these death penalties will solve it, I'm all ears.

GuitarHero
12-13-2007, 03:19 PM
I'll be taking all the CSW potions off my "panic" hotbar and replacing them with cheap gear to swap in when things go south. Since death is now free, better to save my stuff than try to save my bacon. These changes do make monk sound worth playing though - you can zerg naked all day with no repercussions at all.

No kidding, now i have some use for that 1cp robe i keep getting out of high end chests!

Qzipoun
12-13-2007, 03:19 PM
Unyielding Sovereignty has been on a 10 minute cooldown for some time now.

*smacks himself on the head* I have it on my cleric and rarely use it because I always think 20 minutes is too long and only allows for one use per most dungeons :p

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 03:24 PM
I am not aware of what "true resurrection" is as a spell, but it would be nice if the higher level ones gave less penalty (I guess we'll have to check it out on risia)

The second tier faith enhancement for Undying Court currently acts as True Resurrection when used on other non-drow elves.

Everyone else has to wait til clerics get 9th level spells.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 03:26 PM
I am curious to see how or if general playstyle will be altered. This change will probably reward damage mitigation specialists bard/clerics/cc/high dps perhaps. What I see it really rewarding is a uniform style in each group ,i.e. a high dps group, a high cc group, a high healing group, etc. and less variability in an individual group; in addition, experimental groups or abnormal groups are hurt by this change as either the quest becomes more hazardous or takes more time (waiting around for the negative effects to wear off). I don't know if I am in favor of this change, but I guess I will see..

MrCow
12-13-2007, 03:26 PM
Are you not used to negative levels by now?

I have never been used to negative levels for I have never had one, for I am Warforged! However, soon when I pass on I shall experience a bit of this weakening you fleshlings whine about.

Oh, and before someone asks if Warforged would/should be immune to the negative levels, Warforged are immune to energy drain. Negative levels can come in many more forms than just energy drain (such as this new death effect and misalignment with axiomatic and anarchic equipment).

craythegray
12-13-2007, 03:28 PM
[list] Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
Repair costs for Dragonscale items have been dropped to 3 relics of the appropriate type.
Items may be bound at a “Stone of Change”, which can be found in the Marketplace next to the Lordsmarch Bank or in The Twelve, at the base of their tower. Take your item and place it into the Stone of Change, and add (Minimum Level Requirement of the item ^ 2) Khyber Dragonshard Fragments into the device. (Khyber Dragonshard Fragments are commonly found in breakable objects.) An example of the process of binding an object is in my next post.
Players no longer lose experience on death.
At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability, or:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14+
0% 1% 2% 3% 3% 4% 5% 6% 6% 7% 8% 9% 9% 10%



I have the feeling the there is more to this than trying to help with the perma damage items take and the neg feelings it creates. If the dev's were truely concerned about this they would just wipe out damage to items.

From reading between the lines the part that says At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% also backs up my thoughts that the devs could care less about the negative impact item damage has on its player base. (For those who didn't understand that line it means you die all your stuff gets hurt. EVERYTHIGN YOU WEAR>>>>ect BOUND ITEMS>

Which leads me to my last point.

The REAL reason logic says that this is to be implemented is to tie down lootz to one toon. They want us to bind all our gear. This way we can't trade sell or pass it on when we are done with it.....we have to pawn it or destroy it. This might be inresponce to the econmey or just poor future sight by the devs.

I for one oppose this change. I will now have high repair bills on my cleric and other non combat toons. I will not be binding many items so I am sure even if they 1/2 the perma damage rate...that I will be getting way more perma damage to my items because I die alot.

I hope folks jump on the band wagon to help block this nonsence.

DEV's if you really feel that damage makes folks upset...which it does...TAKE OUT PERMA DAMAGE altogether...and be done with it.


Thanks very much...excuse the spelling if you would..

Craythegray


I AM BACK

Impaqt
12-13-2007, 03:31 PM
In over a year and a half of play, I've never had a significant item destroyed by damage. I think I lost a pair of Googles of Haste once..... I dont quite understand why people get all bent out of shape because of perm damage... crioes folks.. we're beating these weapons and gear into the ground... They just might break! GO get a new one....

Now, if the Binding process lowered the ML of the item I could see using this.... Maybe.....

Gratch
12-13-2007, 03:31 PM
The temporary negative levels from the trauma of death can only be removed by effects that can specifically remove death penalties - at the moment, Unyielding Sovereignty is the only such effect.

Well, I see 6 AP's my cleric will need to spend. Are there any cleric spells from levels 1-8 we might expect at some point that would do the same thing? Not trying to trivialize the death effects here... just thinking an L16 cleric should be able to handle these sort of things.

I'm already resigned that my wizard can control and destroy undead 5x faster than my cleric.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 03:32 PM
Eladrin, first off thanks for posting such a detailed preview. It's very helpful both to calm fears and for us to be able to give you rational suggestions :)

I'm still not convinced the item damage makes any sense at all. I think its a mistake and I think its intended to get us to use your new "binding" mechanic more than anything else. I'd also appreciate hearing whether item defense works to prevent this damage or not and if it does...if any thought is being given to giving at least 1 level of item defense enhancements to every class.

And btw, do we really need to make a D&D game about running around and breaking boxes? That's nuts... Can you PLEASE let the rogue just do a search of the room to "reveal" all such items within his LoS as an alternative to box breaking. (leave it in for those that like box breaking, but give us the search as well :D)

The way you handled the debuff is very interesting. 1 minute/1 level isn't bad. The increments are reasonable. Even the 5 minute timer isn't unbearable and well...5 deaths in a row you probably deserve a slap. Having removable by palis is very interesting. This part of the change I can get behind. Its definately going to change some strategies and reduce the need for res scrolls.



The higher level resurrection effects raise you at a higher hit point percentage, as they have for some time now.

I know its not in the game yet but please give some thought to having True Res not have these negative consequencies. That's one of the reasons that spell is so powerful in D&D...its the only one without a penalty.


Edit:


The second tier faith enhancement for Undying Court currently acts as True Resurrection when used on other non-drow elves..

Hmm...I take it back, TR is in the game for some. Ok Eladrin, please make TR not have negative effects for those lucky drow now and the rest of us when we do get to L9 spells :)

craythegray
12-13-2007, 03:36 PM
In over a year and a half of play, I've never had a significant item destroyed by damage. I think I lost a pair of Googles of Haste once..... I dont quite understand why people get all bent out of shape because of perm damage... crioes folks.. we're beating these weapons and gear into the ground... They just might break! GO get a new one....

Now, if the Binding process lowered the ML of the item I could see using this.... Maybe.....

I have to agree with you. I play mostly tanks and I have never lost an item to perma damage...unless i was trying to. I had a dwarf ax of greater ooze bane that took me a long time finially destroy. Oh and I had a tome go poof before the fixes.

which backs up my point from my post. They probably aren't changing this because of the negative impact it has.

The system that they are going to put in place will mathmaticly cause more damage to your items over time unless they are bound.

Its more to stop folks from moving items back and forth, twinking...ect ect.

I can understand this....I hate it.....but could understand it. Its the slyness that buggs me some.


Maybe I am wrong...won't be the first time.


CRAY

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 03:36 PM
It doesn't affect me, as I am going to leave all of my items unbound. I like both item wear and being able to transfer items between characters that have some sort of positive relationship. (I don't transfer items between characters who don't have a relationship to each other.) I think you missed my point entirely. I was asking what possible positive benefits the death penalties were going to have on game play. IMO, a negative play experience is when people don't play as a team and we all wind up dying multiple times because people are either playing selfishly or won't adjust to the problem at hand. If someone has a different opinion about what a "negative play experience" means, and how these death penalties will solve it, I'm all ears.

Um...what do you mean characters who don't have a relationship to each other? Are you talking about alts or what? Sorry, I'm a little confused about what you mean.

I totally understand what a negative play experience is and I'm not using some alternate definition. I'm just saying that nothing is going to force people to play together as a team if there are people who don't think along those lines or care.

If it's undesirable, annoying, or whatever for you it's incumbent on you to change that. Keep a list of players that are good to group with. Join a guild with people you can group with and enjoy yourself. Drop group after the second or third pointless death. Something along those lines.

The fact remains that death in a video game will never totally curb undesirable behavior. In a game, you can always get back that level you lost, or that sword, or all that XP or whatever. I've seen bored people /death over and over again for a laugh and shrug it off by saying "It's only a game, I'll earn back everything I lost eventually".

I just don't see how it's Turbine's responsibility to implement some kind of system that punishes people who have certain playstyles, zergers or not.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 03:37 PM
I have the feeling the there is more to this than trying to help with the perma damage items take and the neg feelings it creates. If the dev's were truely concerned about this they would just wipe out damage to items.

From reading between the lines the part that says At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% also backs up my thoughts that the devs could care less about the negative impact item damage has on its player base. (For those who didn't understand that line it means you die all your stuff gets hurt. EVERYTHIGN YOU WEAR>>>>ect BOUND ITEMS>

Which leads me to my last point.

The REAL reason logic says that this is to be implemented is to tie down lootz to one toon. They want us to bind all our gear. This way we can't trade sell or pass it on when we are done with it.....we have to pawn it or destroy it. This might be inresponce to the econmey or just poor future sight by the devs.

I for one oppose this change. I will now have high repair bills on my cleric and other non combat toons. I will not be binding many items so I am sure even if they 1/2 the perma damage rate...that I will be getting way more perma damage to my items because I die alot.

I hope folks jump on the band wagon to help block this nonsence.

DEV's if you really feel that damage makes folks upset...which it does...TAKE OUT PERMA DAMAGE altogether...and be done with it.


Thanks very much...excuse the spelling if you would..

Craythegray


I AM BACK

Your right this is a negative effect on the game. The other effect is we are going to have to play more to retain the loot we have because it will be breaking down especially if it is not our top gear on our character this especially applies to weapons and really affects melee. Casters make out like bandits because the melees weapons keep breaking down and become more static and less tradeable (harder to get that weapon you want) and the casters don't have too many weapons. Since the casters already are very powerful they don't need any help...

I can also imagine my character clicking furiously at every broken container in competion with the other members of the party which really does not interest me in the slightest...

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 03:39 PM
I can understand this....I hate it.....but could understand it. Its the slyness that buggs me some.

Yup, much rather the slow twinking by adding some MLs to everything so that we stop getting weapons too soon. This method will only hurt the newer and casual players more since they don't have stockpiles of unbound uberitems

moorewr
12-13-2007, 03:40 PM
I hate to say this.. I mean, it will come back to haunt me when I am lead to Madame la Guillotine by the angry crowd.. BUT:

I think the debuff is too short. There I said it. I think the timers should be doubled, or have a progressive curve (1/2/4/7/11 minutes?). Otherwise you will see excess increased zerginess (at least till the character has died a couple times). I'll have to see if the scary item damage is enough of a counter-weight.

Not that I die 5 times in a quest very often. I oughtna consider it as a tactic anyway,

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 03:42 PM
I hate to say this.. I mean, it will come back to haunt me when I am lead to Madame la Guillotine by the angry crowd..\,

kill him..kill him...kill him....

Actually in theory you make a good point... the only down side is this is group play. I don't know that I really want that inept rogue/wiz/whatever even more useless for too long.

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 03:43 PM
I know its not in the game yet but please give some thought to having True Res not have these negative consequencies. That's one of the reasons that spell is so powerful in D&D...its the only one without a penalty.

Well, characters shouldn't be able to be brought back with Raise Dead if they are disintegrated either, but that's how it works in this game. If True Ressurection gives no penalties then there's little to no incentive for parties with a cleric or UMD character capable of casting TR to not die as much.

Maybe if it reduced the penalty by 1? *shrugs*

juniorpfactors
12-13-2007, 03:46 PM
this change is nothing but a pain in the rear to groups.... i still believe there needs to BE harsher death penalties.....XP or something..... -1 level for 1 min ...every tank in the world will just hit the last shrine they skipped....and every paladin now needs to respec their enhancements to fix all the dead with the -levels.... just dont see the purpose if there is a shrine/ palidan work around it

xxDevlinxx
12-13-2007, 03:47 PM
Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

craythegray
12-13-2007, 03:50 PM
Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

Great Queston.

And while they are at it...can lesser heal pots get some love...they are still being treated like clickies.

So Barbs can't use them while raged....and they can't be used while under madstone boot's effect.


I would love to see these two bugs fixed.


Craythegray

moorewr
12-13-2007, 03:50 PM
kill him..kill him...kill him....

Actually in theory you make a good point... the only down side is this is group play. I don't know that I really want that inept rogue/wiz/whatever even more useless for too long.

"They are out of XP? Let zem eat debuffs!"

How about this? Leave the timers as is but add a CON hit (-1 per death, stacking) that lasts until you rest in a tavern. Unless you are an Elf raised by the Undying Call or you are raised by True Resurrection (hmm.. what about Greater Restoration?).

The CON hit is very PNP. I like it.

moorewr
12-13-2007, 03:52 PM
Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

Evidently they will not, and there's nothing to indicate we clerics would get extra slots (why would we?).

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 03:52 PM
Well, characters shouldn't be able to be brought back with Raise Dead if they are disintegrated either, but that's how it works in this game. If True Ressurection gives no penalties then there's little to no incentive for parties with a cleric or UMD character capable of casting TR to not die as much.

Maybe if it reduced the penalty by 1? *shrugs*

Well.... True Res SUPPOSED to remove all penalties. I mean death REALLY matters in paper D&D up until you get that spell and then it does become penalty free. True Res is supposed to be equivilent in D&D to the granting of a miracle or the use of a wish spell. This is one of the most powerful magic spells in the game at play. I mean at 20th level you can raise someone to perfect health without a body who has been dead for 200 years!

The limiting factor in D&D is of course the limited number of spell slots. You can't just spam TR like you could here. In the case of the pali ability its already on a 10 minute timer so its not like it can be used all the time. I'd be ok if when TR shows up it also has a longer than average cool down to avoid its overuse...but it should be a mighty spell, not just give you a couple more HP/SP.

Thrudh
12-13-2007, 03:53 PM
I have one question...

How often have people lost items from breakage? I've NEVER lost an item in the last 18 months... I have a couple that have lost half their durability, but I have yet to completely lose an item. Is this an issue for people?

Beherit_Baphomar
12-13-2007, 03:53 PM
I dunno if this has been axed, cause Im way too important to read all the pages here...but if you bind something
can you then unbind it?

I imagine not, cause then its not really binding, its more....taping it to you....but I thought Id ax.

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 03:54 PM
Will restore and lesser restore work to remove these negative levels and if not will we get extra spell slots for clerics at 12-14th lvls???

concerned guild leader and 14th lvl cleric

Re-read what Eladrin posted. He said that only effects that remove negative death effects will remove this and as of right now the Cleric/Paladin enhancement "Unyielding Sovereignty" is the only thing that does this.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 03:55 PM
I dunno if this has been axed, cause Im way too important to read all the pages here...but if you bind something
can you then unbind it?

I imagine not, cause then its not really binding, its more....taping it to you....but I thought Id ax.

El said no somewhere in this thread :p Bound is bound

xxDevlinxx
12-13-2007, 03:55 PM
Are we going to be able to Unbind items too?? and what about the flawed dragonshards are they going to drop more often - perhaps out of breakables?


concerned citizen

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 03:56 PM
I dunno if this has been axed, cause Im way too important to read all the pages here...but if you bind something
can you then unbind it?

I imagine not, cause then its not really binding, its more....taping it to you....but I thought Id ax.

no eladrin responded that there is no unbind feature currently

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 03:56 PM
I dunno if this has been axed, cause Im way too important to read all the pages here...but if you bind something
can you then unbind it?

I imagine not, cause then its not really binding, its more....taping it to you....but I thought Id ax.

Nope.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-13-2007, 03:57 PM
Yeah, I decided to go lookin'.

Need to try and do that before posting in future.

xxDevlinxx
12-13-2007, 03:58 PM
Ahh thanks ! and is this a spell that clerics get at higher levels say lvl 15 and 16 ? ? ? That is unyeilding soveierty??

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:01 PM
Ahh thanks ! and is this a spell that clerics get at higher levels?? That is unyeilding soveierty??

No, it's an enhancement line, not a spell. It starts with Blessing or Follower of the Sovereign Host and progresses from there. Can't remember which comes first, but it's an enhancement available at first level and the next tier is a few levels after that. U. S. is a level 9 enhancement.

xxDevlinxx
12-13-2007, 04:06 PM
i see thank you - i just thought clerics should have this ability since they do must of the cures on parties, it seems to make most sense, but it is best to stay within the traditions of the original pen and paper game i believe.

thanks again

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:07 PM
I am not a fan I must say of both changes, 10% accross the board every death is very steep. It looks like they finally realized the +1 loot weekends really screwed up the economy, and are trying to pull any itmes they can out of it by making binding look like a good idea. I am now grabbing all the lowbie weapons I can find off the auction house to sell to all those who bound loot at mid levels:D. As for the death effects, I guess I will be playing my cleric and pally mostly, so I can cover myself if hit past the level 1 death effect, other than that if a group wants me to stop playing to wait for the effect to go away, it will be adios and drop group.

My question is what happens if you die 6 times between rests after the 5 minutes is up. While this may not happen often, new content can easily rack up some deaths, and especially the new raid. Do you reset to 1 or go straight to level 5

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:07 PM
No, it's an enhancement line, not a spell. It starts with Blessing or Follower of the Sovereign Host and progresses from there. Can't remember which comes first, but it's an enhancement available at first level and the next tier is a few levels after that. U. S. is a level 9 enhancement.


lvl 6 for clerics

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 04:08 PM
In about 8 deaths an ubound item is at 50% and in about 20 deaths your ubound items are at about 10% at about 30 deaths your ubound items are destroyed. I have a handaxe that is down to 1 tick. It was a great giant killer so I used it on many scale runs but it stopped becoming feasible to use at about 25% because it would constantly break down in a quest and now it is at less then 10% so it sits in my bank....

New players are going to be really hurt by this by the way. They will die alot not have much money or equipment for a new character and watch their shiny new toys get broken all the time..

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:10 PM
i see thank you - i just thought clerics should have this ability since they do must of the cures on parties, it seems to make most sense, but it is best to stay within the traditions of the original pen and paper game i believe.

thanks again

Glad to help!

Keep in mind enhancements as we know them don't exist outside of DDO. This was made to fit the reality that is this game.

Also keep in mind that this doesn't mean that at some point clerics won't get spells that remove negative death effects. :)

MrCow
12-13-2007, 04:11 PM
Now that I think about it the item damage upon death irks me in one regard, it completely ignores item hardness. Things like adamantine equipment and trinkets made of gems are supposed to have a very long shelf life due to the fact that they are very hard to damage. Shouldn't the item wear part of the death penalty take item hardness into some consideration? Maybe it reduces the damage it takes by a percentage of its hardness?

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:11 PM
lvl 6 for clerics

Can you tell I'm paladin-centric? Thanks for the catch!

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:15 PM
In about 8 deaths an ubound item is at 50% and in about 20 deaths your ubound items are at about 10% at about 30 deaths your ubound items are destroyed. I have a handaxe that is down to 1 tick. It was a great giant killer so I used it on many scale runs but it stopped becoming feasible to use at about 25% because it would constantly break down in a quest and now it is at less then 10% so it sits in my bank....

New players are going to be really hurt by this by the way. They will die alot not have much money or equipement for a new character and watch their shiny new toys get broken all the time..

The damage is not permanent and still can be repaired, this differenc is all bound loot will return to 100% and unbound loot will have a chance at perm damage. That being said 4 or 5 deaths in a new quest is not that uncommon the firs time through, and we can expect to see a lot of fighters and squishies recalling out for repairs, instead of the old days where we recalled for mana, and on top of it we will get an xp hit because we had to recall out double wammy

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 04:18 PM
The higher level resurrection effects raise you at a higher hit point percentage, as they have for some time now.

I think it would be beneficial to have an additional effect for these as well that interacted with the new system.

Maybe like Resurrection reduces the duration of your highest tier worth of penalty to 30 seconds and True Resurrection reduces the penalty by a full tier (essentially reducing the duration of the highest tier to 0 seconds).

xxDevlinxx
12-13-2007, 04:19 PM
I am not a fan I must say of both changes, 10% accross the board every death is very steep.

I am not a big fan of the new death penalty either like killing the Abbot is not hard enough as it is - almost like their trying to make the game more challenging instead of having to come up with more updates and new levels and spells, weapons etc. Maybe this is too challenging for the developers or maybe it is just a cost factor. I think the later I just plainly cost them to much to develop all this for us and this is the easy fix.



What happened to our updates once a month as we were promised?

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 04:22 PM
In about 8 deaths an ubound item is at 50% and in about 20 deaths your ubound items are at about 10% at about 30 deaths your ubound items are destroyed.

nope after 10 deaths your item is destroyed if no repaired.

"At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability" -Eladrin

not 10% of the remaining total... so right now if you have a perm damage item that has 50% of it original durability, 5 deaths and its broke. :(

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 04:26 PM
The damage is not permanent and still can be repaired, this differenc is all bound loot will return to 100% and unbound loot will have a chance at perm damage. That being said 4 or 5 deaths in a new quest is not that uncommon the firs time through, and we can expect to see a lot of fighters and squishies recalling out for repairs, instead of the old days where we recalled for mana, and on top of it we will get an xp hit because we had to recall out double wammy

Yes those are the in quest complications - this change benefits the casters more then anybody else well paladins somewhat, and casters don't need any help in the future game that is for sure.

Ahh I see I guess the question is what is the chance for permanent damage for repairing an unbound item? Eladrin says it has been halved but halved to what? It will be 5% or 25% or 10%?

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:26 PM
I think it would be beneficial to have an additional effect for these as well that interacted with the new system.

Maybe like Resurrection reduces the duration of your highest tier worth of penalty to 30 seconds and True Resurrection reduces the penalty by a full tier (essentially reducing the duration of the highest tier to 0 seconds).

agreed give us something in return for damaging our equipment so harshly. I say resurrection does nothing at lvl 1 but upon lvl 2 or above knocks you down 1 notch. resurrection is a much more expensive spell to cast and is much more expensive when buying scrolls. If the only difference is hit points then raise dead and a heal will get the nod in every case but combat raising. Make resurrection worth something.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 04:27 PM
nope after 10 deaths your item is destroyed if no repaired.

"At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability" -Eladrin

not 10% of the remaining total... so right now if you have a perm damage item that has 50% of it original durability, 5 deaths and its broke. :(

ahh it is is Original maximum durability not durability after death.. omg.. this sucks..

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:27 PM
nope after 10 deaths your item is destroyed if no repaired.

"At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability" -Eladrin

not 10% of the remaining total... so right now if you have a perm damage item that has 50% of it original durability, 5 deaths and its broke. :(

5 deaths between rests and it's broken, if it's unbound gear. I think there's only a handful of quests in which this would even be a potential thing to happen anyway, not counting new content.

xxDevlinxx
12-13-2007, 04:28 PM
In about 8 deaths an ubound item is at 50% and in about 20 deaths your ubound items are at about 10% at about 30 deaths your ubound items are destroyed. I have a handaxe that is down to 1 tick. It was a great giant killer so I used it on many scale runs but it stopped becoming feasible to use at about 25% because it would constantly break down in a quest and now it is at less then 10% so it sits in my bank....

New players are going to be really hurt by this by the way. They will die alot not have much money or equipement for a new character and watch their shiny new toys get broken all the time..

The damage is not permanent and still can be repaired, this differenc is all bound loot will return to 100% and unbound loot will have a chance at perm damage. That being said 4 or 5 deaths in a new quest is not that uncommon the firs time through, and we can expect to see a lot of fighters and squishies recalling out for repairs, instead of the old days where we recalled for mana, and on top of it we will get an xp hit because we had to recall out double wammy

Are we going to get less of a penalty for recallling out to repair ??? this is a MUST HAVE!!! or well heck with it - off to another MMO like everyone else. They are trying to force us to bind our items - IS the auction house Next to go? Is that too expensive to maintain?? cant imagine so with 30% taxes and where does that go exactly?


We need some positive ideas for the developers here gents and im all out


Speak now or forever hold your peace

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:30 PM
nope after 10 deaths your item is destroyed if no repaired.

"At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability" -Eladrin

not 10% of the remaining total... so right now if you have a perm damage item that has 50% of it original durability, 5 deaths and its broke. :(

and there will be much binding or recalling. I can se it now. dammit my weapon is at 10% I gotta recall to repair wait for me. Clerics and casters will all have a secret chuckle.
This can also be used for griefing as well think about the stormreaver raid and what happens when you die and how you get resurrected and how easy it is to die again, and how you have no control over if you get rezzed or not:eek:

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:31 PM
agreed give us something in return for damaging our equipment so harshly. I say resurrection does nothing at lvl 1 but upon lvl 2 or above knocks you down 1 notch. resurrection is a much more expensive spell to cast and is much more expensive when buying scrolls. If the only difference is hit points then raise dead and a heal will get the nod in every case but combat raising. Make resurrection worth something.

What about making repair spells/scrolls/wands and mending items actually work on items mid-quest? It'd be great for fighters to invest points in craft weapon/armor so they could make repairs themselves (with a failure chance based on skill level). Make it an enhancement if you must. Maybe they can't do that during a quest and have to be at a forge or something, but still - that'd be a nice alternative. I'd prefer to be able to do it during a quest if needed, but if not, at least make it so arcanes could repair items.

Dirkan
12-13-2007, 04:32 PM
Man I hope I don't die in Reaver with a rez switch pulling maniac! I can't take seeing that much naked dwarf!

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:32 PM
and there will be much binding or recalling. I can se it now. dammit my weapon is at 10% I gotta recall to repair wait for me. Clerics and casters will all have a secret chuckle.
This can also be used for griefing as well think about the stormreaver raid and what happens when you die and how you get resurrected and how easy it is to die again, and how you have no control over if you get rezzed or not:eek:

True, but that's one scenario that if somebody does it more than once intentionally you can just say "Screw this" and recall out and drop group.

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 04:33 PM
5 deaths between rests and it's broken, if it's unbound gear. I think there's only a handful of quests in which this would even be a potential thing to happen anyway, not counting new content.

NOPE
The item damage has nothing to do with resting. The Neg levels and -2 to saves is. This, by the way it is worded is a Static consequence of dying, with out relation to any other penalty.

the Bound items will also be damaged/broken but not perm...

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:35 PM
What about making repair spells/scrolls/wands and mending items actually work on items mid-quest? It'd be great for fighters to invest points in craft weapon/armor so they could make repairs themselves (with a failure chance based on skill level). Make it an enhancement if you must. Maybe they can't do that during a quest and have to be at a forge or something, but still - that'd be a nice alternative. I'd prefer to be able to do it during a quest if needed, but if not, at least make it so arcanes could repair items.


yes repair skill, when they use a shrine it repairs a portion of the damage on their weapons, not all the way mind you but think of it as a field repair. It could introduce the repair item artificer spell line so thaht casters could try repairing items. Yeah that would smart and cool, doubt it will happen

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:36 PM
NOPE
The item damage has nothing to do with resting. The Neg levels and -2 to saves is. This, by the way it is worded is a Static consequence of dying, with out relation to any other penalty.

Ah, my bad.

Hmm...

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:38 PM
True, but that's one scenario that if somebody does it more than once intentionally you can just say "Screw this" and recall out and drop group.

some times it is not griefing it is bad luck that you got raised as the stormreaver ran over you. So now you have to abandon to save your equipment, well there goes any xp or rewards, great system indeed

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:40 PM
some times it is not griefing it is bad luck that you got raised as the stormreaver ran over you. So now you have to abandon to save your equipment, well there goes any xp or rewards, great system indeed

Well, it's still one specific scenario.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 04:40 PM
5 deaths between rests and it's broken, if it's unbound gear.

You guys are all acting like bound items won't take damage, but I'm pretty sure the only thing that binding stops is permanent damage. They can still get damaged in quests, and by death, it's just when you repair them, there's no chance that damage will become permanent.

Am I wrong about that?

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 04:43 PM
your right there MT... ALL Equiped non stackable gear is dammaged. I edited an earlier post about 5 minutes ago to reflect that.

Impaqt
12-13-2007, 04:44 PM
Are there this many Really bad players inthe game? You folks cant get through a quest without dying less than 1 or 2 times?

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:45 PM
You guys are all acting like bound items won't take damage, but I'm pretty sure the only thing that binding stops is permanent damage. They can still get damaged in quests, and by death, it's just when you repair them, there's no chance that damage will become permanent.

Am I wrong about that?

Yeah, my misunderstanding. If the ability to fix permanent damage arrives with MOD6 then there should be no reason why 5 deaths would destroy bound items, as you would presumably fix your favorite items to 100%.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 04:46 PM
You guys are all acting like bound items won't take damage, but I'm pretty sure the only thing that binding stops is permanent damage. They can still get damaged in quests, and by death, it's just when you repair them, there's no chance that damage will become permanent.

Am I wrong about that?

Nope. That is why all the talk of recalling out for repairs I think most people are beginning to assume everything will be bound because the risk of wearing an unbound equipment item in anything other then a straightforward easy quest is too great especially if you are pugging...

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:47 PM
Are there this many Really bad players inthe game? You folks cant get through a quest without dying less than 1 or 2 times?

Who knows. I think most of us are wondering about the potential rather than the reality, to be honest.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 04:47 PM
Even if you have bound items. If they break (you can repair in town of course) you will be running a quest without any gear.. lol..

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 04:49 PM
Are there this many Really bad players inthe game? You folks cant get through a quest without dying less than 1 or 2 times?

sure If I've ran it 1/2 billion times...

When Ghost of Perdition came out, 4 maybe 5 wipes first time through. Abbot raid??? running it, I most likely died 17-25 times on 2 different toons just to get a look at the puzzles and try to enjoy the new content.

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 04:54 PM
Hmm, it occurs to me that with items taking damage on death and now that all characters, regardless of blue bars or not might have to recall to fix their gear that the reentry penalty has in effect become the new "XP Debt" so to speak. Instead of losing XP when you die, if you are trying to save your favorite gear from permanent damage you might recall to repair it, thus incurring a re-entry penalty.

This is less significant with the loss of XP debt when you die.

Hmm..that's a clever way of making it even across the board. Now other characters besides casters have a reason to recall if a quest goes south and they die more than once or twice.

I'm still undecided about the item damage aspect of all of this. New content often times = a lot of dying.


sure If I've ran it 1/2 billion times...

When Ghost of Perdition came out, 4 maybe 5 wipes first time through. Abbot raid??? running it, I most likely died 17-25 times on 2 different toons just to get a look at the puzzles and try to enjoy the new content.

That's actually a good point. The 10% item damage upon death does seem to hamper enjoying new content to an extent due to the correlation between new content and death.

Still, Eladrin said these values are subject to change before the release, so it isn't set in stone yet. I'm sure there'll be plenty of opportunities to discuss this before then.

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 04:56 PM
another potential problem here....

I remember when I could evade in heavy armour. If I had to bind my +5MFP to my evasion fighter and to protect it. then the change was made to evasion after I bound the Item I would be more than Mad as a Hatter. As you recall there was even an interview saying that Evasion wasn't going to be fixed to PnP rules...

Mercules
12-13-2007, 04:59 PM
another potential problem here....

I remember when I could evade in heavy armour. If I had to bind my +5MFP to my evasion fighter and to protect it. then the change was made to evasion after I bound the Item I would be more than Mad as a Hatter. As you recall there was even an interview saying that Evasion wasn't going to be fixed to PnP rules...

Do we have to bring that one up again? And then the person who said that stopped working at Turbine. So is Turbine bound to his comment months previous to his leaving months after he left? No... :)

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 05:05 PM
another potential problem here....

I remember when I could evade in heavy armour. If I had to bind my +5MFP to my evasion fighter and to protect it. then the change was made to evasion after I bound the Item I would be more than Mad as a Hatter. As you recall there was even an interview saying that Evasion wasn't going to be fixed to PnP rules...

If such a situation were to occur again, you'd probably have a legitimate argument to get them to allow you to unbind a certain number of items.

But honestly, that seems kind of like a "cross that bridge when we get to it" problem.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 05:13 PM
So when the new content comes out with the new mod and we are all waiting with anticipation and glee to run the new quests what will be running but older content until we get enough rocks to bind our gear.. lol.. Gotta love this game...

moorewr
12-13-2007, 05:14 PM
some times it is not griefing it is bad luck that you got raised as the stormreaver ran over you. So now you have to abandon to save your equipment, well there goes any xp or rewards, great system indeed

People die in the Reaver raid? :confused:

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 05:18 PM
Few facts on the new DP we seem to miss;

# Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
# The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
# Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
# At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability.



Our Bound items take no damage, our unbound items will take 50% less perm damage then we do now, a 25% cut in repair costs, and a max of 10% damage to our worn items when we die. This is win-win. Add in Item Defense for the classes that have it available and your set.

Since Beta, I may have seen 2-3 people recall out of a Quest to get repairs done - and that is because they forgot to do it before we started. IMO, recalling out for repairs is a non-issue.

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 05:19 PM
Do we have to bring that one up again? And then the person who said that stopped working at Turbine. So is Turbine bound to his comment months previous to his leaving months after he left? No... :)

I only bring it up to make an illustration of one scenario where the meta-game mechanic was under a major overhaul. And a big no to being bound by it... it's turbines' game :)

with the very adult conversation we are having here, and knowing that the devs do look at these threads... It may or may not on their radar as a future concern if another change could cause some future player grief.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 05:21 PM
Our Bound items take no damage, our unbound items will take 50% less perm damage then we do now, a 25% cut in repair costs, and a max of 10% damage to our worn items when we die. This is win-win. Add in Item Defense for the classes that have it available and your set.

Bound items take no permanent damage, they still take normal damage.

And item defense won't affect item damage from death (per Eladrin in this thread).

Other than that you seem right on target.

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 05:23 PM
But honestly, that seems kind of like a "cross that bridge when we get to it" problem.

/agree with ya there Keith Baker-David ;)

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 05:23 PM
Keith Baker-David

:p

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 05:28 PM
Bound items take no permanent damage, they still take normal damage.

And item defense won't affect item damage from death (per Eladrin in this thread).

Other than that you seem right on target.

Got me before I could fix my typo's!

:P

I added Defense because, as I understand the new system, we have normal wear and wear from death. Normal wear can be dealt with via the Defense line. Now this is where I am a little confused MT, maybe you can help...

Will 'normal wear' happen on our bound items? Or are the only damaged via death? So, for example, could my armor take damage due to normal wear and up to 10% damage from death? Follow me MT?

I 'think' the answer is normal wear happens in addition to wear from death.

Am I making any sense or should I just pack it up and hit the pub?

;)

Kavel_Havae
12-13-2007, 05:32 PM
I added Defense because, as I understand the new system, we have normal wear and wear from death. Normal wear can be dealt with via the Defense line. Now this is where I am a little confused MT, maybe you can help...

Will 'normal wear' happen on our bound items? Or are the only damaged via death? So, for example, could my armor take damage due to normal wear and up to 10% damage from death? Follow me MT?

I 'think' the answer is normal wear happens in addition to wear from death.

Am I making any sense or should I just pack it up and hit the pub?

;)


Normal Wear will occur the DP is in addition to the normal rate of wear.

yeah go hit the pub!!! and have a couple for me :D

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 05:33 PM
TY Kavel.

All clear now - time to go fuzz it all up!

/offtothepub!

:D

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 05:34 PM
nope after 10 deaths your item is destroyed if no repaired.

"At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability" -Eladrin

not 10% of the remaining total... so right now if you have a perm damage item that has 50% of it original durability, 5 deaths and its broke. :(

Hmm...that's a good catch. Ok E, what's the logic here? Shouldn't it at least only damage based on its current or at least current maxium durability? I mean if an item is at 10% and you die its broke...not good.



This can also be used for griefing as well think about the stormreaver raid and what happens when you die and how you get resurrected and how easy it is to die again, and how you have no control over if you get rezzed or not:eek:

Oh no...I never even thought of this...I once was in an Abbot raid where someone was spamming the res lever even though everyone died on reentry because the eles were hanging out at the res spot... I think I died 10 times in 30 seconds. Lets see, how much damage to my equip would I have taken? Oh ya, 100%. And when he finally listened to the "stop" yells from everyoen until it was clear, we would have all been naked with a 5 min debuff...great...


Do we have to bring that one up again? And then the person who said that stopped working at Turbine. So is Turbine bound to his comment months previous to his leaving months after he left? No... :)

He's not complaining about the change...he's saying once the change happened he sold/traded the now useless to him armor. Under the new system he would have bound the item to protect something so valuable...only to have it made bound and useless to him. He's got a point. I could see other similar things happenning until we finally get all 20 levels in play. For example my +6 wis item on my sorc might have been seen as an "I can never part with it" item and been bound...until they announced the new feat that lets you substitute CHR for WIS on your save... now I have a +6 item of junk if its bound.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 05:35 PM
Normal Wear will occur the DP is in addition to the normal rate of wear.

I'm pretty sure this is right. It sounds like the only thing binding an item affects is whether it takes permanent damage or not while being repaired (from its normal damage).

MasterofDungeons
12-13-2007, 05:35 PM
yes repair skill, when they use a shrine it repairs a portion of the damage on their weapons, not all the way mind you but think of it as a field repair. It could introduce the repair item artificer spell line so thaht casters could try repairing items. Yeah that would smart and cool, doubt it will happen

Seconded!

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 05:37 PM
Few facts on the new DP we seem to miss;

# Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
# The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
# Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
# At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability.



Our Bound items take no damage, our unbound items will take 50% less perm damage then we do now, a 25% cut in repair costs, and a max of 10% damage to our worn items when we die. This is win-win. Add in Item Defense for the classes that have it available and your set.

Since Beta, I may have seen 2-3 people recall out of a Quest to get repairs done - and that is because they forgot to do it before we started. IMO, recalling out for repairs is a non-issue.

I am not sure I see it the same way maybe I just dont fully understand repairs. If an item is damaged when it gets repaired doesn't it have a chance of taking the damage that was inflicted on it. So if for instance you were silly enough to keep using a weapon after it had been damaged in a quest the effects currently in game if you repair it are worse because the permanent damage that could be assessed is worse. That is where I think this is going with unbound items if you die 4 times in a quest even though you have less of a chance of perma damaging an unbound item then we do now (50% less) the effect is far greater with items durability being reduced by 10% for every death...

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 05:37 PM
Oh no...I never even thought of this...I once was in an Abbot raid where someone was spamming the res lever even though everyone died on reentry because the eles were hanging out at the res spot... I think I died 10 times in 30 seconds. Lets see, how much damage to my equip would I have taken? Oh ya, 100%. And when he finally listened to the "stop" yells from everyoen until it was clear, we would have all been naked with a 5 min debuff...great...

Seems like the answer there is to give people a "Do you want to be raised" box just like everywhere else. (I'm assuming there isn't one already. I have yet to actually get into those two raids, damn flagging requirements.)

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 05:40 PM
I am not sure I see it the same way maybe I just dont fully understand repairs. If an item is damaged when it gets repaired doesn't it have a chance of taking the damage that was afflicted on it. So if for instance you were silly enough to keep using a weapon after it had been damaged in a quest the effects currently in game if you repair it are worse because the permanent damage that could be assessed is worse. That is where I think this is going with unbound items if you die 4 times in a quest even though you have less of a chance of perma damaging an unbound item then we do now (50% less), but the effect is far greater with items durability being reduced by 10% for every death...

Statistically, under the old system, it didn't matter whether you repaired your items right away or you waited til they were completely broken to repair them. Over time, they'd take the same amount of permanent damage.

I don't remember the exact formula, but that's what it worked out to. Basically, the longer you waited the higher the chance that it'd get permanent damage on that repair, but the more often you repair the more chances it has to get permanent damage. So in the long run it evened out.

Waiting longer never affected the amount of permanent damage an item would take, just the chance that it would take some. The amount was determined by the current ratio of durability to original max durability.

I don't know if the new changes to the rate of permanent damage would affect this in any way, though I don't think it should.

Dariun
12-13-2007, 05:42 PM
At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability


After reading through the discussion, I agree that the 10% of original maximum durability is too much and should be reconsidered.

Cutting it in half or making it based on current durability or capping it at 3 deaths (30%) all seem like better alternatives.

As currently planned, it will generate a great deal of unhappiness among the player base -- particularly among people who didn't care about the XP penalty anyway and see this as a "new" death penalty rather than a "changed" death penalty, but as someone who hates the current XP penalty and welcomes a change, I don't think I'll be too happy when people are complaining about weapon damage, switching gear, or recalling to repair.

There are too many save-or-die (e.g., beholder) situations in the game where someone can easily die 4-5 times (at least, *I* have been disintegrated multiple times in one quest...) even if they are trying to play carefully (I don't know how the heck that beholder could get me around the corner...).

Making people recall-to-repair is not fun for anyone, and there are some quests where you either can't or it is really problematic to do so (e.g., VON3 or anywhere where you will have to travel a long way to repair and return).

I'd suggest taking a careful look at this on Risia before making a final decision.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 05:47 PM
yes repair skill, when they use a shrine it repairs a portion of the damage on their weapons, not all the way mind you but think of it as a field repair. It could introduce the repair item artificer spell line so thaht casters could try repairing items. Yeah that would smart and cool, doubt it will happen

Oh I really like this idea. I'm glad Master of Dungeons seconded it or I never would've noticed it.

In addition, perhaps you could pseudo-implement the (non-Artificer) spells that do similar things, such as Make Whole (Clr 2) and Mending (Bard, Cleric Wiz/Sorc 0, but maybe you could just make it 1st, or better yet add cantrips and orisons).

You could make Mending repair a certain percentage of damage on a persons equipped items (as though taken to a standard repairer) and Make Whole could repair all of the damage (as though taken to a Master repairer).

Akhad_Durn
12-13-2007, 06:00 PM
which identify them as the systems most closely tied to negative play experiences, and we’d like to take this time to address these issues.

The changes are detailed below:
Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
Item repair costs have been reduced for all items by 25%.
Players no longer lose experience on death.
At the moment of death, all non-stacking, equipped items that your character is wearing will take a percentage of item wear. Each item will take damage equal to (Character Level * ¾, round down, maximum 10)% of their original maximum durability, or:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14+
0% 1% 2% 3% 3% 4% 5% 6% 6% 7% 8% 9% 9% 10%



Note: All values, durations, and effects are still subject to change prior to the release of Module Six. Risia feedback is especially welcome!

Well... the item damage on death stinks... The only time my items currently take a lot of damage is when I'm being beat on hard enough that my char is going to die. Now I'll have the added benefit of having a static lump of damage added to all of my items on death.

I'm not going to bind my items, I don't have enough great equipment to go around already much, less if I find something better (or get some raid loot, raid loot == 0), and want to trade equipment off to another char.

Item repair cost lower by 25% is basically nothing if I'm going to need to repair all of my high end equipment every time I die. The total cost to repair is going to increase just due to the wear on everything.

Permanent damage only happening 50% of the current rate, this sounds nice, but I doubt that it’s going to decrease the amount of I'm going to be seeing. I think more of my equipment will be getting permanent damage since a lot of my equipment was never taking any damage before so didn't need to chance taking any permanent on repair.

This change to death and item damage is far worse than the current system. Currently if I don't mind too much if I die (even on non-capped chars), since I can run another quest to make up the XP difference. XP is plentiful in this game, good loot is not. With this change, you'll be exchanging XP dept, for equipment damage. XP dept isn't permanent, equipment damage is. I don't pull good loot frequently, I certainly die a lot more than I pull good loot. This change mainly means to me that my equipment is going to degrade faster than I can get it.

I quest with PUGs 100% of the time, my guild doesn't have enough people to even field a single six man quest group. I know the best, and the worst that PUGs have to offer. This change is going to decease my willingness to stick with marginal PUGs, since it will increase the cost of staying with them beyond want I'm willing to pay.

As for the death penalties, those seem reasonable. Usually a group can either pull off a tough fight, or they can’t. Usually retrying isn’t going to change that, so a wipe isn’t going to make a big difference.

gpk
12-13-2007, 06:01 PM
There are times when waiting out the death penalty won't be an option, but I agree for the most part.

Also, will negative levels affect spellcasting as they should, ie you lose actual spell slots?



If not, then the penalty affects non spellcasters in a more severe way, as they rely on attack bonus, skills, saving throws, and hit points more. Just losing spell points in today's environment isn't really a penalty at all, as casters recall to get sp or drink the sp pots. Actually taking away their spells; now that is a penalty.

The jury is still out on whether I like this change. It's actually a really good idea, though I'm not sold on the duration you've chosen for the timer. It seems a bit too long to me. Adding the caveat that Clerics and Paladins can remove the Touch-Owned with an enhancement, however, is probably the best thing you've done here.

Also, will we ever be able to UNBIND items?:D

Some interesting questions.

gpk
12-13-2007, 06:06 PM
Some very important questions have been asked as to how this will relate to the higher level raids, Stormreaver, Abbot.
I'd like to know how the death penalty applies to them, as others have pointed out things can sometiems spiral out of control (Stormreaver res lever) etc.

And how does this relate to the yet again patched Abbot puzzles and the removal of Touch of Dol on normal?

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 06:20 PM
Seems like the answer there is to give people a "Do you want to be raised" box just like everywhere else. (I'm assuming there isn't one already. I have yet to actually get into those two raids, damn flagging requirements.)

no the reaver has no "do you want to be raised" button, they pull the lever and you pop up in the middle of the room with 5% health, multiple deaths is extremely easy nobody hangs around the middle because you could be launched into spikes.so getting a heal means getting accross a large room

the thing is you don't see many people recalling to repair weapons because most of the times, they will just switch to a new one, but this is all equipment so people will be more likely to freak when they see major damage to everything, especially newer players.

The fact that you are not flagged for a raid that has been out for 9 months tells me Mystic that you are a much more casual player, and explains why you like these new rules much better as they suit your play style

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 06:40 PM
no the reaver has no "do you want to be raised" button, they pull the lever and you pop up in the middle of the room with 5% health, multiple deaths is extremely easy nobody hangs around the middle because you could be launched into spikes.so getting a heal means getting accross a large room

Yeah, definitely sounds like it needs a raise confirmation box.


the thing is you don't see many people recalling to repair weapons because most of the times, they will just switch to a new one, but this is all equipment so people will be more likely to freak when they see major damage to everything, especially newer players.

Well do keep in mind that the percent damage is significantly lower at lower levels.


The fact that you are not flagged for a raid that has been out for 9 months tells me Mystic that you are a much more casual player, and explains why you like these new rules much better as they suit your play style

I never claimed otherwise. Though I continue to debate that there's anything wrong with that, as the old system strongly favored your play style over mine while the new one is significantly more even. (In my opinion, of course.)

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 06:43 PM
I give these changes my stamp of approval ... in theory.

On permanent item damage - it is a difficult change to analyze as there are many unknown variables. Overall, I think it will result in more damage to unbound items, which in turn will incentivize binding items, which in turn will (a) reign in the economy; (b) limit twinking; (c) boost the perceived value of chest loot. I view each of these as postiive game developments. Thus, I tend to like it.

The main issue that concerns me re: perm. damage is the effect on PUGs, especially if the playerbase refuses to bind (and thus even a single death carries a rather stiff penalty). That concern is mitigated by the fact that most PUGs are essentially loot runs anyhow, in my experience, and entail little risk of death. But it is still a nagging concern.

What I think would additionally help, assuming I understand the underlying goal, is for more items to be bound on acquire, and perhaps to incentivize binding (by decreasing its costs) yet more - i.e. lower the dragonshard piece cost, etc.

On the death effects, I am *completely* on board and am really excited at the prospect of an immediate, and real (as in you feel it) effect to death. While I still think the best death penalty would be to affect the loot table, this is a comparable solution.

I have no concerns over waiting around for the death effects to fade, or recallign, etc., as I think the playerbase simply won't accept it. In my experience, groups will not accept, and will not suggest, "Yeah, lets all stand around for a minute simply because you're at -1", or 2 minutes, or even 3, etc. At some point, there is a risk that the player will rather abandon the quest than continue in light of the penalty ... but that doesn't bother me. If you've died 5 times, something is wrong in the first place.

Closing comment - I don't play Risia so I won't be able to playtest these ... but I hope that everyone gives the DEVs and the process the benefit of the doubt and instead of going aggro now, wait until you've had a chance to see the effects of the system. Better yet - play it on Risia ... but since I don't I can't get all preachy on that front. :D

JD2134
12-13-2007, 06:43 PM
My problem is that i see a lot less weapons and armor being traded between players. i have played this game since launch and only taken about a 4 month break. Yet i only looted two vorpal weapon and maybe 3 smiter and 5 banisher with another two being a ghost touch bow and ghost touch axe. this is with four lvl 14 maxed toon. I general get ransacked on POP when it game out. Now i looted these nice weapons during the +1 loot weekend.

Now under the new system i would more then likey bind these weapons to a toon, thus if i found a better version i would be unable to trade the older weapon to a friend in exchange for me to use the new one. So now there be less weapons being sold as people trade in the weapon for newer ones

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 06:48 PM
no the reaver has no "do you want to be raised" button, they pull the lever and you pop up in the middle of the room with 5% health, multiple deaths is extremely easy nobody hangs around the middle because you could be launched into spikes.so getting a heal means getting accross a large room

You are absolutely right.

But the reason this happens now is that nobody cares if they immediately die and have to redo it. The XP death penalty, when you're capped, is a non-penalty. So you just bounce back up, then do it again.

The change will institute a death penalty that, assuming you don't bind your items, will sting. Thus, what you'll see is people being more careful before dropping into a room with a raging StormReaver. And that doesn't sound so wrong to me ....

(ps - yes obviously there is a griefing potential here where someone starts yanking on the lever ... but any **** that bothers to do that will quickly find that they aren't invited into the raid. Put differently; the griefing potential is self-policing.)

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 06:48 PM
Hey E, will these changes be available in the Risia update thats being planned in the next few days? It would be nice to do a little play testing to see if we are overreacting or not :D

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 06:49 PM
My problem is that i see a lot less weapons and armor being traded between players. i have played this game since launch and only taken about a 4 month break. Yet i only looted two vorpal weapon and maybe 3 smiter and 5 banisher with another two being a ghost touch bow and ghost touch axe. this is with four lvl 14 maxed toon. I general get ransacked on POP when it game out. Now i looted these nice weapons during the +1 loot weekend.

Now under the new system i would more then likey bind these weapons to a toon, thus if i found a better version i would be unable to trade the older weapon to a friend in exchange for me to use the new one. So now there be less weapons being sold as people trade in the weapon for newer ones

And thus the value of good pulls will increase. I don't think that's a bad thing. Do you?

kengsxr
12-13-2007, 06:52 PM
I normally just roll with the punches that the DEV's throw at us......but this new death thing......Is the worst Idea I have ever heard. they either want to :
1: stop twinking by having items bound
2: cut down on high end trades
3: try to fix their extremely broken economy.
No matter how you slice it, IT IS A TERRIBLE IDEA.
DEV's, In my opinion, this is a great way to drive people away from the game.
Have you ever heard the phrase "if it aint broke, don't fix it." the Death penalty was not broken, no you have really messed it up.
If you are going to leave this horrible idea in place, we need 0% penalty for re-entering, and all quests need to be able to re-entered easily(ie von3)
ok, that's my 2 coppers worth on this subject.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 06:53 PM
And thus the value of good pulls will increase. I don't think that's a bad thing. Do you?

Well ya it kinda is... It will mean that newer players will have less chance of getting anything decent unless they visit buyyourplathereoryouwillsuck.com

Also its going to be a tough game...when you are slashing spec'd but pull that blunt disrupter to you bind it or have the heck beat out of it? I'd be inclined not to bind because eventually you might find a better weapon and if you bind it, the blunt becomes garbage. And if you don't bind it...well possibly garbage again from the damage.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 06:54 PM
1: stop twinking by having items bound
2: cut down on high end trades
3: try to fix their extremely broken economy.
No matter how you slice it, IT IS A TERRIBLE IDEA.

I'm not really sure why those things are "terrible ideas." I mean you even admit that the economy is broken.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 06:56 PM
I normally just roll with the punches that the DEV's throw at us......but this new death thing......Is the worst Idea I have ever heard. they either want to :
1: stop twinking by having items bound Probably - although fixing the MLs could fix this
2: cut down on high end trades Probably - more broken/bound stuff means less trades and more grinding
3: try to fix their extremely broken economy. maybe...I think it will make it wackier and promote plat sales
No matter how you slice it, IT IS A TERRIBLE IDEA. yes
DEV's, In my opinion, this is a great way to drive people away from the game. yes, especially new players.

:(

Akhad_Durn
12-13-2007, 07:00 PM
I'm not really sure why those things are "terrible ideas." I mean you even admit that the economy is broken.

I think, that he's trying to say that the method that they're attempting to do them is terrible, or alternately that these are the only reasons that he could find that they'd make the chnages this way. :rolleyes:

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 07:00 PM
Well ya it kinda is... It will mean that newer players will have less chance of getting anything decent unless they visit buyyourplathereoryouwillsuck.com

Also its going to be a tough game...when you are slashing spec'd but pull that blunt disrupter to you bind it or have the heck beat out of it? I'd be inclined not to bind because eventually you might find a better weapon and if you bind it, the blunt becomes garbage. And if you don't bind it...well possibly garbage again from the damage.

I dunno ... I think the game is kinda easy. In fact, I've long said they need to make elite even harder.

As for the slashing spec'd person who pulls a blunt disruptor ... thats the whole point. You could sell it, and get even more for it. You could pass it down to a blunt spec'd alt. Or, you could use it for awhile. Let it take 40 permanent ticks of damage (which will probably take, oh, guessing here, but 400 deaths while its equipped). Then either bind it, or give it to someone else who can bind it. Or sell it to someone who can bind it.

As for the perspective of new players ... you don't need the uberest weaps, especially at lower levels, to get by. While obviously twinking will no longer be as easy, that will in turn create a real economy for the lower level items. Presently, there is none, as everything is hand-me-downs. I think its a good thing.

SilverSong
12-13-2007, 07:04 PM
I don't see this as stopping twinking, because the stuff I use for twinking isn't something I am going to bind since I will want to beable to hand it down. As to taking big items out of the market I really don't see this happening, there are some that will still sell the named items for max price right after a mod comes out.

It will be your choice to bind things, no one is making bind anything.

On the whole there are some tweeks that need to be worked out with this system, but I think it is way better then exp debt that means nothing to capped charaters. I have watched to many charaters /death to travel over the map. Which I see as being lazy. With the way the new DP we will see alot less of this, I can hope.


The Reaver raid does need a yes/no box for the rezz lever. Also we could use either the Mending spell or our repair skill help us a bit.

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 07:11 PM
I normally just roll with the punches that the DEV's throw at us......but this new death thing......Is the worst Idea I have ever heard. they either want to :
1: stop twinking by having items bound Probably - although fixing the MLs could fix this
2: cut down on high end trades Probably - more broken/bound stuff means less trades and more grinding
3: try to fix their extremely broken economy. maybe...I think it will make it wackier and promote plat sales
[4] No matter how you slice it, IT IS A TERRIBLE IDEA. yes
DEV's, In my opinion, this is a great way to drive people away from the game. yes, especially new players.

In order:

1. It will definitely cut down on twinking. I am not sure why that is bad. Consider: How do you design a quest for both a newbie untwinked level 2, as well as a fully twinked level 2? Answer: You can't. The lowlevel quests become either totally boring grinds with no challenge (for the twinked) or impossible to beat (for the newb who isn't). That's just a recipe for disaster.
2. I'm not sure it will cut down on high level trades, but it will make a high-level unbound item more valuable. And thats what the economy needs at the moment - some inflation. The whole "this means more grinding" ... I don't even understand that. If you want better stuff, play more. I guess you can call that grinding. I guess you can also call it a "reward" system for playing more. </shrugs>
3. I think it will help the economy. I'm not sure why you would say it would make it wackier. What it means is that, for most players, when you pull a really desireable weapon, you will keep it. Does it promote plat sales? I guess ... but I mean, buying or not buying plat is a moral choice. It will *always* make the game easier. In a well functioning game economy, money has value, and therefore plat selling will be a temptation. I don't see how these changes affect the ethical decision that buying or not buying plat represents.
4. I don't think its a terrible idea. I don't want to argue over it. But I hope that, in the interest of a game you love, instead of creating negativity over it, you can post your concerns, consider opposing viewpoints, but utlimately judge the system on the effects of it in game.

On the last point ... we've all heard the screaming about wanting more opportunity to give feedback, more communication, etc. I think one reason that we wouldn't see "previews" in the past (and I admit, this is pure speculation) is because of the concern that the whining on the forum will create negativity, and turn people off to it even when they don't understand it or haven't played it. Regardless, since we all love this game, lets at least give the system a try. If you're dedicated enough, play it on Risia and then post your comments. But posting "you've ruined the game" to a change that is not *that* huge even if you ultimately don't like it ... I dunno. I see no upside.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 07:19 PM
I agree this will not stop twinking at all. I don't really care about my twinked gear unless it is the most uber twink gear anyway and it is so easy to find more twinkable gear doing just about anything, buying in the ah, doing favor, buying from the shops, the bad loot drops at high level, whatever.

It will hurt the new players who don't have money funds to bind/buy more gear because they are new to the game and since they die more then an experinced player the affect is that much greater.

I am hoping Eladrin or another developer could post a more numerical breakdown on the repair damage, number of gear damaged compared to before, etc. so we have a better idea of what we are discussing.. I would like to know what we are dealing with. My current plan is to experiment with my level 12 mule when/if this comes out so I know what to expect regarding damage which would be a waste of my time.

I don't feel that Risia will give a comprehensive view of the impact of these changes because there are almost no new players on that server. They need the newer players' input for this as well....

Ron
12-13-2007, 07:22 PM
1: stop twinking by having items bound
2: cut down on high end trades
3: try to fix their extremely broken economy.
No matter how you slice it, IT IS A TERRIBLE IDEA.


That's odd. Those all seems like very GOOD things things to me :)

Gornin
12-13-2007, 07:22 PM
The new system is bad. It doesn't fix any of the problems. I won't stop twinking. It will stop PUGging. It will stop exploration of new content and running of known but difficult content.

Take the Reaver example given earlier. For those of you who never die in the Reaver, good for you. My guild often PUGs it to fill out and try to get a better chance at loot drop. We don't know their playstyles and ability. But we take them anyway because this game is about co-op play. Now I won't want to do that because the cleric may not be to good at spamming heals because he is not a good twitch player. Is that my fault? No, but I don't want to blast someone else for not being an uber player, because neither am I. Now it is going to be easier to die after the first time and I am going to possibly lose equipment. People die on my watch when I cleric and I already feel crappy enough, even if there was nothing I could have done to prevent it.

Oh, and how about exploring new content. How many times do you die in there trying to figure out the best tactics? Guess we won't want to do that when your stuff will be destroyed from the repeated deaths. And all the time you waste recalling to repair, remove neg level, disband and regroup after a wipe. Sorry, I only get about 2 hours to play a day, now I am wasting play time on something that is unreasonable.


Lets talk about dying due to bugs or lag. Reaver again. I am tanking over by one of the pillars, Reaver does "what goes up" move and I hit the ceiling, but some how, I end up in the spikes at the center of the room even though I was nowhere close to the center. So now I may lose equipment and have a neg level and may end up with more if someone keeps spamming the res lever. Again, not my fault and due to a bug.

Another bug that really irritates me is the dying the mysterious death. Nothing near you, aggro on the tanks and BAM!, I die. Check combat log. No indication of what hit you or with what or any failed save, just a long list of buff removals and the clincher " you were killed by something ". Just absolutely wonderful. Now I have to pay for that because something in the game is wrong? Just not right.

Let's see, what else is there. Oh. the damage at this point will evidently ignore hardness and DC of items. This may be corrected, but at this time my +5 Addy FP will take damage just because "there needs to be a death penalty that means something". I will refrain from using foul language to iterate my thought on that. You get the idea.

Hmm, more you say? Sure, how about 80 percent of spells aren't in the game, and other abilities to help prevent you from dying along with no repair spells. The mobs get them but not us. The mobs are overpowered with too many hit points, abilities and spells we don't get, nearly impossible ACs and a host of other things, like blanket immunities.

There is more to this than a better death penalty is needed. At least the XP debt was something recoverable from when you died due to other peoples limitations, or lag or bugs in the game. It was frustrating but able to be dealt with. It seems to me to be more catering to the uber elite who play 30+ hours a week or more and spend their time doing all the math to "beat the game and be uber".

This penalty is not in line with D&D. Maybe just the neg levels I could see, if they were removable by higher level spells, but as they are, they will just get you dead again quicker. Or waste time recalling, repairing, waiting, disbanding and regrouping.

Ron
12-13-2007, 07:32 PM
The new system is bad. It doesn't fix any of the problems. I won't stop twinking. It will stop PUGging. It will stop exploration of new content and running of known but difficult content.
Bah. Your whinging because up to now, as a capped player, you've had exactly 0 death penalty for the last two years. It's what you're used to, so you feel it is how things ought to be. Now you have one. This is as it *actually* should be. Just because you are used to it doesn't mean it wasn't broken. If you don't see how half the population is running around the game with NO death penalty at all is broken, then you are just refusing to look.

Now you have a reason to avoid death. And that is good. If it stops you from running content, you are probably playing the wrong game. I would suggest that Disney MMOG with the robots, or maybe that SIM thing. I'm sure they don't have a death penalty.

I tend to agree this system won't do much to stop twinking. But at least its a start down the right road. Perhaps someday we will actually have a functioning D&D style economy. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one :)

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 07:40 PM
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one :)

You're a dreamer, but you're not the only one. ;)

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 07:41 PM
oh God take your hippy Lennon stuff and ...

:D

gpk
12-13-2007, 07:44 PM
Oh come on now, not everything is about "whining" you know.There are legitimate concerns being brought up and I for one would like to see them discussed and addressed.
Have factors beyond the players control been considered (Bugs, server lag, internet lag etc)?
How will this affect PUGs and new players? How will this affect Raids? How will it affecting PUG raids?

There are a ton of things that must be considered, cumulative neg levels AND increased duration must be carefully examined.

UJoF
12-13-2007, 07:45 PM
I normally just roll with the punches that the DEV's throw at us......but this new death thing......Is the worst Idea I have ever heard. they either want to :
1: stop twinking by having items bound Probably - although fixing the MLs could fix this
2: cut down on high end trades Probably - more broken/bound stuff means less trades and more grinding
3: try to fix their extremely broken economy. maybe...I think it will make it wackier and promote plat sales
[4] No matter how you slice it, IT IS A TERRIBLE IDEA. yes
DEV's, In my opinion, this is a great way to drive people away from the game. yes, especially new players.

:(

I disagree so much I have logged in to make my very first post here. I am a frequent but "small bites" DDO gamer who plays because I enjoy the social interaction with a group of friends located apart but fond of the pen-and-paper game we can't often play due to distance. I don't work in high-tech, and hadn't played a PC game since Civ I. I play maybe an hour a day, several times a week. The people I play with have more time and/or have played since beta, and catching/keeping up with them can be a real challenge given I don't have the time luxury of becoming truly expert at the game. The death penalty has been the bane of my existance, and often I've wondered if playing was a bad decision on my part. I can't rotate characters because I am already playing 'catch up'. I play frequently enough that I can't let the penalty fade away each time I die, yet I play for short enough periods I often barely make up what I lost previously. My inexperience leads me to die more than I might otherwise, although I have minimized that a bit by specializing in clerics. I know there are legions of others like me, and in fact it is this market that Turbine needs to attract to become truly profitable.

I want to say thank you to Turbine from the bottom of my heart for killing the death debt process. You have sealed my continuing play of the game, and I will feel much more comfortable suggesting the game to my colleagues and friends.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 07:50 PM
Have factors beyond the players control been considered (Bugs, server lag, internet lag etc)?

I'm not sure how the death penalty changes this in any way. There were always instances where you'd die and it wouldn't be your "fault." Now there's just a different penalty.


How will this affect PUGs and new players?

I'm not sure that's something that anyone will be able to determine for some time. Nor do I think it will have a straightforward answer. Some people, who strongly disliked the XP penalty, will be more willing than ever to PUG. Others, who feel strongly about the new death penalty, will be less.

Overall, though, I think it's easier, as a new player, to accept a penalty which is temporary rather than one that is essentially permanent (when you lost XP you were always down X amount from what you would've otherwise been at).


How will this affect Raids? How will it affecting PUG raids?

It's fairly difficult for me to even speculate on this as I don't raid a whole heck of a lot. But in general, I'd think it'd make people more careful about dying, even in raids, which before were generally done at the cap and thus dying didn't matter as much.

Tolero
12-13-2007, 07:54 PM
Let's make sure we're keeping this feed back constructive folks. If someone feels adamant that they don't like something, or are concerned about something, they are welcome to express themselves so long as it is respectful. If someone really likes something, they can tell us without putting down others who don't agree. Disrespectful would include telling others that they are "whining," among other choice verbiage. Constructive criticism is permitted so long as it is respectful to other users as well as the developers. Praise of something you really like is acceptable as long as it is also respectful to other users as well as the developers.

You don't have to fluff up like Siamese fighting fish in front of a mirror to tell us how you feel about something. ^^

Gornin
12-13-2007, 08:03 PM
Bah. Your whinging because up to now, as a capped player, you've had exactly 0 death penalty for the last two years. It's what you're used to, so you feel it is how things ought to be. Now you have one. This is as it *actually* should be. Just because you are used to it doesn't mean it wasn't broken. If you don't see how half the population is running around the game with NO death penalty at all is broken, then you are just refusing to look.

Now you have a reason to avoid death. And that is good. If it stops you from running content, you are probably playing the wrong game. I would suggest that Disney MMOG with the robots, or maybe that SIM thing. I'm sure they don't have a death penalty.

I tend to agree this system won't do much to stop twinking. But at least its a start down the right road. Perhaps someday we will actually have a functioning D&D style economy. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one :)

As usual, a member of the uber elite clique flames without reading or quoting the whole post. You guys are really good at that. And it proves my point that you think you shouldn't have to play with non uber players that do not devote their time to this game, as evidenced by your usual lack of consideration and non attention to the points I made, and by you usual trashing where I should go play some kiddie game. Thank You for being exactly like I said the uber elitist would be. I am not whining, I made cogent points in my post if you had bothered to read the whole thing, and maybe used some comprehension to debate my points to where I might have given some credence to you.


Sorry, I do have a penalty. I have had to make up almost whole levels from trying the Abbot raid. It takes time to regain those XP that I could be doing other things. Since I am capped I get less XP from most quests. There is my penalty - time - of which I have limited to play. And don't tell me about people using death to travel or skip content. I don't do it as a matter of principle and the ones I usually see doing it are the Uber elitists.



No, it is not how it should be. Items in D&D do not take the amount and rate of damage that they do in this game. My life is literally in the hands of others who may not have have mad twitch skills or just not experienced players or don't have all the loot that you Uberz do to let him pull of amazing feats. In D&D the monsters are balanced and aren't inflated to make up for their lack of AI. Death also comes in the form of many bugs and broken mechanics in this game.

gpk
12-13-2007, 08:03 PM
I'm not sure how the death penalty changes this in any way. There were always instances where you'd die and it wouldn't be your "fault." Now there's just a different penalty.

Well rememeber when the XP penalty was changed doubled or so (Mod3 was it?) ? it was then reduced in large part because of "not your fault" stuff.



I'm not sure that's something that anyone will be able to determine for some time. Nor do I think it will have a straightforward answer. Some people, who strongly disliked the XP penalty, will be more willing than ever to PUG. Others, who feel strongly about the new death penalty, will be less.

Overall, though, I think it's easier, as a new player, to accept a penalty which is temporary rather than one that is essentially permanent (when you lost XP you were always down X amount from what you would've otherwise been at).

It's fairly difficult for me to even speculate on this as I don't raid a whole heck of a lot. But in general, I'd think it'd make people more careful about dying, even in raids, which before were generally done at the cap and thus dying didn't matter as much.

It's the high level raids that concern me. The mechanics of the Abbot (pre breaking patch(es)) were already such that you didn't want to go in there with "average" players, you were picky about who you bring in with you. I'm concerned that with these changes you'll be even more picky.
A cleric who's just a tad slow on the draw with heals be more likely to be left out because he's more likely to "let you die"
A fighter without good gear and raid loot is more likely to be left out because he is a bit more likely to die.
A CC wizard is less likely to get invited because his DPS is just a tad on the low side because that could lead to more deaths.
A player who occisonally gets a bad frame rate or doesn't have the best mouselook and hotkey setup, well you know.

Sure I may be exxagerating a bit here and there, but you see my point. If you're not careful on how the changes affect high level end content you'll end up doing a helluva lot more harm than good.

Gornin
12-13-2007, 08:14 PM
Well rememeber when the XP penalty was changed doubled or so (Mod3 was it?) ? it was then reduced in large part because of "not your fault" stuff.



It's the high level raids that concern me. The mechanics of the Abbot (pre breaking patch(es)) were already such that you didn't want to go in there with "average" players, you were picky about who you bring in with you. I'm concerned that with these changes you'll be even more picky.
A cleric who's just a tad slow on the draw with heals be more likely to be left out because he's more likely to "let you die"
A fighter without good gear and raid loot is more likely to be left out because he is a bit more likely to die.
A CC wizard is less likely to get invited because his DPS is just a tad on the low side because that could lead to more deaths.
A player who occisonally gets a bad frame rate or doesn't have the best mouselook and hotkey setup, well you know.

Sure I may be exxagerating a bit here and there, but you see my point. If you're not careful on how the changes affect high level end content you'll end up doing a helluva lot more harm than good.


Thank you.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 08:25 PM
Sure I may be exxagerating a bit here and there, but you see my point.

Yes, I do.

But it's definitely a tough balance. You want death to be meaningful, even for elite, high-end or capped characters, but it's definitely possible (easy even?) to go too far.

I'm fairly optimistic that this is a place where they will listen to players. As you point out, that last time the Death Penalty was a major issue, they listened to us and adjusted accordingly.

Ron
12-13-2007, 08:29 PM
As usual, a member of the uber elite clique flames without reading or quoting the whole post.

Woohoo! I'm a member of the uber elite clique! Do I get a badge? Is there a secret handshake? :)

I didn't quote your whole post because it was all based on the same thing. You are upset because in the near future you will have a death penalty, whereas now you do not. I thought the bit I quoted summed that up pretty well.

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 08:30 PM
you know it is pointless even discussing it any more, Turbine has made their choice, and essentially it will probably change very little, because anyone who complains about it will simply be told by those who like it that we should feel the sting of death and like it, and Turbine agrees with us so stop complaining. Mod 6 will be a real test for most hardcore gamers I imagine as they will have to reevaluate the way they play because people who hardly ever raid felt we got off too easy for the 9 months Turbine left us sitting at lvl 14, giving us very little new content. So we played the game turbine gave us, one where we took take some chances and tried something a little different, as it gets boring rolling new alts over and over. So we ran raids with abandon and used death as a tactic. We ran quests above our level for fun, and tried Gianthold at lvl 8. So what does it matter for other players how we played the game. Why is it so important for you that we stop playing it this way.

Like I said I will try it, if it does not impact my game so negatively that it start to fell like work to avoid death then I keep playing, but if not then my money will be spent elsewhere

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 08:35 PM
that we should feel the sting of death and like it

No... no... you're not supposed to like it. ;)

Seriously, as a person who probably will like the new system better, I hope you, as one of it's chief detractors at present, give some serious feedback about it once you've played with it for a while. Which is to say, don't just quit right away if you hate it. Post about it, rant about it (constructively ;)) and do your best to change everyone's minds about it.

And then if no one listens to you and you still can't get used to it, quit.

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 08:37 PM
Well rememeber when the XP penalty was changed doubled or so (Mod3 was it?) ? it was then reduced in large part because of "not your fault" stuff.



It's the high level raids that concern me. The mechanics of the Abbot (pre breaking patch(es)) were already such that you didn't want to go in there with "average" players, you were picky about who you bring in with you. I'm concerned that with these changes you'll be even more picky.
A cleric who's just a tad slow on the draw with heals be more likely to be left out because he's more likely to "let you die"
A fighter without good gear and raid loot is more likely to be left out because he is a bit more likely to die.
A CC wizard is less likely to get invited because his DPS is just a tad on the low side because that could lead to more deaths.
A player who occisonally gets a bad frame rate or doesn't have the best mouselook and hotkey setup, well you know.

Sure I may be exxagerating a bit here and there, but you see my point. If you're not careful on how the changes affect high level end content you'll end up doing a helluva lot more harm than good.

I agree this change will simply increase the divide between hardcore players and casual players, as hardcore players will avoid anyone who hasn't done the quest many times or doesn't have the right equipment. back to the bad old days of "CO6 loot run must have wounder".
I thought the raid loot change was a step in the right direction because it finally made filling a raid wirthwhile, and I saw many people get into their first raid ever, now I imagine we will close ranks and admit only those we deem able to not "die"

gpk
12-13-2007, 08:37 PM
Yes, I do.

But it's definitely a tough balance. You want death to be meaningful, even for elite, high-end or capped characters, but it's definitely possible (easy even?) to go too far.

I'm fairly optimistic that this is a place where they will listen to players. As you point out, that last time the Death Penalty was a major issue, they listened to us and adjusted accordingly.

Right, it can potentially go way too far and the players who will suffer the most are the new players, casual players and the "average" players.

Well Like you, I'm hoping this discussion will have a positive outcome, just as the old death penalty discussion and the very recent +15 AB on 5th swing discussion.

boldarblood
12-13-2007, 08:40 PM
The penalty to death is ok, I can live with.

The damage to equipment I can not. I have never complained about changes to the system, in fact have liked most of the changes. This change will have bad effect on pugs. Why would I take a chance at damaging my equipment to people I don't know, no thank you. I will stricly run only with people I know on high end content, whereas now I enjoy catching a pug. This change will cause people to leave the game.

If I feel that is negatively impacts my fun, I will reconsider my subscribtion.

maddmatt70
12-13-2007, 08:41 PM
Woohoo! I'm a member of the uber elite clique! Do I get a badge? Is there a secret handshake? :)

I didn't quote your whole post because it was all based on the same thing. You are upset because in the near future you will have a death penalty, whereas now you do not. I thought the bit I quoted summed that up pretty well.

Wow. I agree with the poster who you are belittling. He is concerned and rightly so as this could be a major change to the game. I would like you not to close down this thread and/or continue with your name calling. You should probably offer an apology, but I doubt you will. As other posters have noted this should be examined carefully, tested and feedback provided. Has Turbine made their decision? Probably yes, but if the players hate the change they will be forced to re-evalute and alter it...

Ron
12-13-2007, 08:43 PM
Like I said I will try it, if it does not impact my game so negatively that it start to fell like work to avoid death then I keep playing, but if not then my money will be spent elsewhere

Aye, this is true of all of us, I suppose. If the game becomes something we don't like, we move on. I, for instance, dislike the outdoor adventure areas (too much of a MMOG grind system, not much of a D&D system in my view), but most people seem to like them, and they aren't enough of a detrator for me to leave the game (by a long shot!, hehe). So I tolerate them, or more often, ignore them.

This is a system you don't think you will like. I can understand that. It's a system I think I will like (at least more than the current XP debt system anyway). Not in a "Yay I died!" kind of way, but in a "I think this is good for the game" kinda way. But, I could be wrong, perhaps I WON'T like it when it actually gets here. Perhaps I will dislike it enough to make the game unplayable to me. If so, I'll head on to the next thing. It happens :)

Or maybe once it's here there will be aspects of it I don't like and maybe I can be a part of getting them changed through feedback here on the forums. Or maybe you will. Maybe we just need to see what happens.

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 08:45 PM
No... no... you're not supposed to like it. ;)

Seriously, as a person who probably will like the new system better, I hope you, as one of it's chief detractors at present, give some serious feedback about it once you've played with it for a while. Which is to say, don't just quit right away if you hate it. Post about it, rant about it (constructively ;)) and do your best to change everyone's minds about it.

And then if no one listens to you and you still can't get used to it, quit.


I will try it, and I don't expect them to change it because I complain about it. My criticism will be as subjective as everyone's praise of it. It is all about your point of view. We have a different view of what a challenge is, and what a penalty should be when playing a game nothing more. I think trying it on Risia will not be enough as it will be artifiaclly dying to see what happens. It will only be when the new content is actuall live and we go into a quest as a guild group, whether the experience will be just like the first night we ran pop and went in the beholder room and ran around screaming "pull the lever!" and nevermind we are all dead" lets do that again!!!!

GeneralDiomedes
12-13-2007, 08:48 PM
I guess I should post some to keep up the post count war?

I don't see any problem with this new penalty. Obviously XP debt was a joke for capped characters. Debuffs and equipment damage are well established precedents, so I don't know where the people threatening to leave are going to go. Nowhere I guess.

Up to 10&#37; item wear (or whatever it is) per death is totally manageable, as are negative levels for a few minutes. Maybe .. just maybe .. the equipment damage is there to make you stop and think before you croak for the 10th time in a quest. Some incredible example I read where someone died 10 times in 30 seconds is not usual .. for anybody.

Lag deaths .. I can count on a single hand the number of lag deaths I have had in two years. Falling bug deaths, same thing. Neither are significant enough to even attempt to account for it (how could you anyhow?).

I mean, how many times are you people dying in a typical quest? Maybe I really don't want to know. But know that I've spent my fair share pugging .. and maybe it's not as often as you claim.

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Constructive criticism is permitted so long as it is respectful to other users as well as the developers. Praise of something you really like is acceptable as long as it is also respectful to other users as well as the developers.


yay. having the same rules of respect apply to your "internal" customers as your "external" was long overdue here. I hope you enforce this rule.

Ron
12-13-2007, 08:54 PM
Wow. I agree with the poster who you are belittling. He is concerned and rightly so as this could be a major change to the game. I would like you not to close down this thread and/or continue with your name calling. You should probably offer an apology, but I doubt you will. As other posters have noted this should be examined carefully, tested and feedback provided. Has Turbine made their decision? Probably yes, but if the players hate the change they will be forced to re-evalute and alter it...

??

I neither belittled nor name-called. So no, I will not apologize, for I see nothing that I said that warrents it. I read his entire post, and made an honest assessment of it as I saw it. I could have gone over his arguments point for point, but I didn't think it was needed. As far as I could tell it all boiled down to one thing, which is what I said. Perhaps you don't agree, and that's cool. Show me something I said that was out of line and I'd be more than happy to apologize for it. In actual fact, I was the one who was called "an uber-elitist" (which is absolutely absurd if you know anything about me at all, I've been nothing if not the defender of the casual player during my career here on the forums, feel free to look up my posting history if you don't believe me).


Actually, in reading over my comments, I did use the term "Whinging". It wasn't meant to be insulting, I just thought it was a somewhat funny word to use. But I can see how it can be taken as belittling the post. So I offer my apologies for using that word, it was ill thought on my part.

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 08:54 PM
Aye, this is true of all of us, I suppose. If the game becomes something we don't like, we move on. I, for instance, dislike the outdoor adventure areas (too much of a MMOG grind system, not much of a D&D system in my view), but most people seem to like them, and they aren't enough of a detrator for me to leave the game (by a long shot!, hehe). So I tolerate them, or more often, ignore them.

This is a system you don't think you will like. I can understand that. It's a system I think I will like (at least more than the current XP debt system anyway). Not in a "Yay I died!" kind of way, but in a "I think this is good for the game" kinda way. But, I could be wrong, perhaps I WON'T like it when it actually gets here. Perhaps I will dislike it enough to make the game unplayable to me. If so, I'll head on to the next thing. It happens :)

Or maybe once it's here there will be aspects of it I don't like and maybe I can be a part of getting them changed through feedback here on the forums. Or maybe you will. Maybe we just need to see what happens.


Yes but the difference betwen outdoor areas and this is that you can avoid them and not miss a beat, and continue to play your game the way you want to play it, and those who like outdoor areas can go out and spend countless hours counting the butterflies if they want to, and you would never see them and they would never see you. This change is global and says play this way. I doubt you would be happy if Turbine decided tomorow they were doing away with quests and will produce only outdoor areas, because they determined people like outdoor areas better and do not enjoy the stress of having to complete a quest.

MysticTheurge
12-13-2007, 08:57 PM
I will try it, and I don't expect them to change it because I complain about it.

Not necessarily, but if you make a good enough case for it's problems, offer a feasible alternative that works within the system they've come up with and convince enough other people to support the idea, they might change it. They've done this in the past in similar scenarios.

Just for example, while I like the concept of the system overall, I'm not convinced that the item damage percentages are right or that the penalties and/or their durations shouldn't be adjusted. If you were to make a good case for why those should be tweaked downward after playing with the system for a while, I could be convinced that such a change would be a good idea, as (I imagine) could many of the new systems other advocates.

Once you've got "both sides" of the argument agreeing that the system needs to be changed, Turbine is generally pretty good about listening.

GeneralDiomedes
12-13-2007, 08:59 PM
Yes but the difference betwen outdoor areas and this is that you can avoid them and not miss a beat, and continue to play your game the way you want to play it, and those who like outdoor areas can go out and spend countless hours counting the butterflies if they want to, and you would never see them and they would never see you. This change is global and says play this way.

Are you saying that the new death penalty should be optional? Again, any perceived dictation in play style is due to your own perception. I'm sure you can go on playing the same way you did before. This has been tested internally and severely cut back from the original proposal. If they made it any milder than this, they may as well eliminate all penalties entirely.

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 09:03 PM
I want to echo MT's comment to Arko. .... Please dont' feel you're not being heard even if they dont' change it. Just as I won't take it personally if they do ....

As you know, they come up wiht an idea. They play test it. THEN they decide whether or not to put it in.

Well ... here they come with a big change.

I think we should just try to realize we haven't tried it yet and give it some time. If it sucks, I'll be back here in no time with you saying "I WAS WRONG ... BAD IDEA" ... and I trust that they will listen to us as they generally have in the past.

The point is, don't get frustrated now cuz none of us knows how it will be ... Lets discuss how we think it WILL be, let them know how we think it SHOULD be, accept the solution they choose (knowing that they really are trying to please us as the customers), and then if it stinks, complain. If the complaints go unnoticed and you aren't having fun otherwise .... then move along! That is, after all, the ultimate in feedback that you don't like the direction the game is going. But you owe it to yourself in light of how much you love this game to at least try it out first.

The best example of this was the enhancement system. Heather was dead on right on that (IMO). I was firmly against it and voiced my opinion strongly that the new enhancement system was ****. Well ... I WAS WRONG!!! Now, I think its really awesome. I love the flexibility it gives me ... and how I can go from specialization X to Y every 3 days for minimal $$$, and how there are real choices (under old system, there were just the "must have" options).

anyway .... the upside of all this is that apparently, lots of people love this game! and thats a good thing ... off to GH =0

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 09:03 PM
I guess I should post some to keep up the post count war?

I don't see any problem with this new penalty. Obviously XP debt was a joke for capped characters. Debuffs and equipment damage are well established precedents, so I don't know where the people threatening to leave are going to go. Nowhere I guess.

Up to 10% item wear (or whatever it is) per death is totally manageable, as are negative levels for a few minutes. Maybe .. just maybe .. the equipment damage is there to make you stop and think before you croak for the 10th time in a quest. Some incredible example I read where someone died 10 times in 30 seconds is not usual .. for anybody.

Lag deaths .. I can count on a single hand the number of lag deaths I have had in two years. Falling bug deaths, same thing. Neither are significant enough to even attempt to account for it (how could you anyhow?).

I mean, how many times are you people dying in a typical quest? Maybe I really don't want to know. But know that I've spent my fair share pugging .. and maybe it's not as often as you claim.


Most capped players generally don't die when doing familiar quests, but try learning a raid when it first comes out, and you don't want to wait till someone shows you how to do it. The group that beat the titan before they changed it went through 100 rez scrolls to do it. That feat would never have happened as all of them them would have broken equipment and no way to leave and come back. Turbine has designed raids to kill you over and over again till you get used to it and know what do do. A dragon run on elite can easily have 2 or 3 wipes and regroups before velah finally goes down. So yes hardcore players tend to die a lot more because those players tend to do things first, blazing the way for more casual players to do it later on.

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 09:05 PM
Are you saying that the new death penalty should be optional? Again, any perceived dictation in play style is due to your own perception. I'm sure you can go on playing the same way you did before. This has been tested internally and severely cut back from the original proposal. If they made it any milder than this, they may as well eliminate all penalties entirely.

no what I am saying is that he is comparing outdoor areas a portion of the game that is completly optional to something that will affect all players

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 09:09 PM
I want to echo MT's comment to Arko. .... Please dont' feel you're not being heard even if they dont' change it. Just as I won't take it personally if they do ....

As you know, they come up wiht an idea. They play test it. THEN they decide whether or not to put it in.

Well ... here they come with a big change.

I think we should just try to realize we haven't tried it yet and give it some time. If it sucks, I'll be back here in no time with you saying "I WAS WRONG ... BAD IDEA" ... and I trust that they will listen to us as they generally have in the past.

The point is, don't get frustrated now cuz none of us knows how it will be ... Lets discuss how we think it WILL be, let them know how we think it SHOULD be, accept the solution they choose (knowing that they really are trying to please us as the customers), and then if it stinks, complain. If the complaints go unnoticed and you aren't having fun otherwise .... then move along! That is, after all, the ultimate in feedback that you don't like the direction the game is going. But you owe it to yourself in light of how much you love this game to at least try it out first.

The best example of this was the enhancement system. Heather was dead on right on that (IMO). I was firmly against it and voiced my opinion strongly that the new enhancement system was ****. Well ... I WAS WRONG!!! Now, I think its really awesome. I love the flexibility it gives me ... and how I can go from specialization X to Y every 3 days for minimal $$$, and how there are real choices (under old system, there were just the "must have" options).

anyway .... the upside of all this is that apparently, lots of people love this game! and thats a good thing ... off to GH =0

I think mod 6 going live will be the deciding factor as testing will be artificial, and will be consequence free. It will be only then when people realize that they either like it or hate it. I actually was a supporter of the enhancement system changes, because I saw that flexibility and knew it would make my chracters better. Iguess time will tell and I will post after I have done some testing

gpk
12-13-2007, 09:10 PM
This has been tested internally and severely cut back from the original proposal.

Really, please elaborate.

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 09:14 PM
Really, please elaborate.

Eladrin alluded to it in one of his posts, most new content appears on the mournlands server first where a select few get to play test it for Turbine and give feedback

Ciaran
12-13-2007, 09:17 PM
Woohoo! I'm a member of the uber elite clique! Do I get a badge? Is there a secret handshake? :)

I didn't quote your whole post because it was all based on the same thing. You are upset because in the near future you will have a death penalty, whereas now you do not. I thought the bit I quoted summed that up pretty well.

Seems to me you are making assumptions and have pre-conceived notions about why he's upset. In my experience this makes it hard if not impossible to see where another person is coming from. Why don't you try reading the fine print, as it were, of his post.

I personally have two level capped characters and I'm concerned with some of these changes (the item damage changes and the potential repercussions in exploring new content or getting a group to do old content). People are bringing up valid arguments against this - it'd be wise not to dismiss them out of hand because we think we know why their griping.

gpk
12-13-2007, 09:19 PM
Eladrin alluded to it in one of his posts, most new content appears on the mournlands server first where a select few get to play test it for Turbine and give feedback

Oh I was hoping he didn't mean Mournlands (I too assumed he was).
Without going into many details, let's just say I have very little faith in the beta testers there.

Pellegro
12-13-2007, 09:20 PM
Iguess time will tell and I will post after I have done some testing

I think thats the best Turbine can ask for. If its junk, we tell them. If they ignore us, we leave. Then we find another game, while they're stuck looking for new jobs. :eek:

Its good to be the customer ....

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 09:24 PM
Oh I was hoping he didn't mean Mournlands (I too assumed he was).
Without going into many details, let's just say I have very little faith in the beta testers there.


as do I

Sillius
12-13-2007, 09:34 PM
Thanks for the update! Really liked the new system. Can't wait.

Recently, I just cancelled my subscriptions and then renewed again cos I found that I still love this game too much. :)
Then was hit with 3 days of downtime... lol ( I play in Asian time zones so it's three days of no DDO for me.. darn should have renewed 3 days later ).

Anyways, playing in this time zone meant that sometimes it's difficult to get groups. So to me, this encourages soloing/exploring or go in a quest with less than a full group ( i don't mind but some ppl do ;) )

I like the fact that you only risk dmg to equipments when you're in a bad group or you want to try to learn a map or dungeon.
Not having to worry about making up the xp debts by spending time looking for groups doing some well known quest.
I think it's a nice enough deterrent to discourage ppl from /death or zerging... because of the equipment dmg and debuffs.
And also the option for ppl to bind things which they really love and wouldn't want to risk any perm dmg.

All in all, it' great news for me.

* hmm.. maybe a good place to farm those shards for binding stuffs are in smugglers warehouse.. since we have to break all the barrels anyway. And there's lot of breakables :D

Ron
12-13-2007, 09:37 PM
* hmm.. maybe a good place to farm those shards for binding stuffs are in smugglers warehouse.. since we have to break all the barrels anyway. And there's lot of breakables :D

Heh, or Kobold's new ringleader. There's something like 250 breakables in there :D

Sillius
12-13-2007, 09:42 PM
omg.. you actually remember the no of breakables? hehe... :D

Hendrik
12-13-2007, 09:52 PM
I miss the other DP thread.

:(

GeneralDiomedes
12-13-2007, 09:55 PM
Oh I was hoping he didn't mean Mournlands (I too assumed he was).
Without going into many details, let's just say I have very little faith in the beta testers there.

They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest. Not good enough for you?

Qzipoun
12-13-2007, 10:00 PM
I know this has been mentioned already but I strongly think death penalty and item wear should not be related to one another in any way whatsoever.

If a mage hits my character with finger of death or PK, there isn't even any logical reason for items to get damaged. I just don't see why death would equal automatic damage while you can fight for a whole hour and not get damaged at all, makes no sense to link the two together.

Riorik
12-13-2007, 10:00 PM
I'd have to say I'm a bit concerned with the changes to the death penalty.

My reasons have to do with the fun factor. I'm not really against there being a price for stupidity, but the changes go way beyond the current system. Today, at worst, you're inconvenienced for a short period when you have to re-earn the experience. However, the whole damage to items portion smacks of as system really intended to drive the economy - and the need to do the grind.

This just doesn't strike me as fun at all - I cannot fathom how this will be considered a positive addition to the game system. Some players are going to love this - but I sincerely doubt I'll be one of them. Admittedly, some of my characters already run with a significant amount of bound equipment -- but some don't.

From time to time I get off my posterior to re-balance the equipment -- get a few new items and perhaps there's a better way to mix up the equipment of my seven high level characters...usually by re-working the equipment of several characters simultaneously so as to not leave any lacking and to improve at least one. This change will encourage me to bind some of the items that are always in use...and that'll limit future choices.

Nax

quick edit - noticed I wasn't very clear.
I don't really mind the changes that impose a temporary penalty on the players. The long term impact, however, seem clearly to be part of an agenda to address Turbine concerns that are unrelated and unlinkable to death. Ways to encourage players to want to grind merely to maintain the status of their characters. It's a lot (no, exactly) like how the Dragonscale armors started out needing 10 relics to repair (and then dropped to 5 and in the future, 3) - they realized it "sucked the life" out of playing the game. Once a game starts to feel like work - where's the fun?

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 10:02 PM
They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest. Not good enough for you?

Yes they also tested the Titan, the demon queen, the Reaver and the Abbott and obviously felt they were ready as well. The feedback they seem t be giving the devs was people want more puzzles trust us they love it. All those raids came out broken in one manner or another and had to be nerfed or fixed or something else done to it to make them playable.

ice33b
12-13-2007, 10:23 PM
Paladins are indeed essentially immune to penalties to saves vs. fear, as they're just flat out immune to fear. They're not immune to temporary negative levels though.

The temporary negative levels from the trauma of death can only be removed by effects that can specifically remove death penalties - at the moment, Unyielding Sovereignty is the only such effect.

Using that same line of thought, since WF are immune to negative levels, I would assume that they would also be immune to that part of the death penalty, correct? I mean, if Paladins get to keep their fear immunity, WF should be allowed to keep their negative level immunity as well.

BlueLightBandit
12-13-2007, 10:26 PM
I've always been a pretty "decent" guy when it came to pugs, as in I'd put up with a lot of stuff just to get the quest done. I've been known the throw a few hundred heal scrolls at a problem group, just to be a nice guy.

Unfortunately, what these changes mean to me is that this kind of "nice guy" behavior is probably going to disappear quick. It's one thing to laugh and joke around while playing this game... it's something totally different to criss-cross aimlessly through a quest or follow blindly repeating the same mistakes about weapons and armor or which mobs to attack or what strategy to use when.

The simple change that will happen with my playstyle is simple. I'm simply not going to be able to accept bad groups any more. Whereas before I could recall and regroup after a wipe or drag stones back before... now I'm simply going to bow out and drop group gracefully. I will probably pug less, and be more willing to simply leave party when someone immature or a little too crazy for my playstyle enters the group.

Basically they made death at all levels mean something. It's true, it's what the purist players wanted, and the fun-time players didn't. I don't have a problem with actually suffering a consequence from dying. Heck one dev even stated pretty clearly that dying should not be a viable tactic... I kinda agree with that concept.

Of course my guild will see a whole lot more of me, as those are people I trust. But pugs... well I just became much less of a nice person in pugs because of this. And I'm not quite sure what I think about that yet. Maybe time will tell.

MrCow
12-13-2007, 10:27 PM
since WF are immune to negative levels, I would assume that they would also be immune to that part of the death penalty, correct?

As living constructs Warforged are immune to energy drain. Warforged are not immune to necromantic spells or death effects. This does not classify as energy drain so Warforged shouldn't be immune to this form of negative levels (much like they are not immune to the penalty for using axiomatic/anarchic weapons).

Qzipoun
12-13-2007, 10:32 PM
Another reason why this change is a bad one:

Dying now hurts the WHOLE party as even after you get the person who died back up, they're not at 100%. Before a death would mean death penalty to that person alone, once they are rezed and healed it's all good. Now, however, once they are rezed and healed they need special attention because they are weaker then everyone else.

Qzipoun
12-13-2007, 10:34 PM
Yes they also tested the Titan, the demon queen, the Reaver and the Abbott and obviously felt they were ready as well. The feedback they seem t be giving the devs was people want more puzzles trust us they love it. All those raids came out broken in one manner or another and had to be nerfed or fixed or something else done to it to make them playable.

QFT. Sometimes I'm surprised at the stuff that gets through private testing. (In terms of it being broken and/or completely off track compared to what people want)

moorewr
12-13-2007, 10:38 PM
Another reason why this change is a bad one:

Dying now hurts the WHOLE party as even after you get the person who died back up, they're not at 100%. Before a death would mean death penalty to that person alone, once they are rezed and healed it's all good. Now, however, once they are rezed and healed they need special attention because they are weaker then everyone else.

For 1-5 minutes, and 5 minutes is only for the 11-14 set...

When we discussed this with Eladrin back in September, several of us voiced concern about timer debuffs. Do you gimp along or will power gamers announce they will be AFK for 1-5 minutes? Both are not fun.

Up thread I suggested a) the debuffs are too light a penalty as is, and b) leave them as is but add a stacking -1 CON per death removable by true resurrection or the Undying Call (this was just before I was lead to the Guillotine :)).

I'm excited to test this all out. On Risia now now now!

gpk
12-13-2007, 10:44 PM
Yes they also tested the Titan, the demon queen, the Reaver and the Abbott and obviously felt they were ready as well. The feedback they seem t be giving the devs was people want more puzzles trust us they love it. All those raids came out broken in one manner or another and had to be nerfed or fixed or something else done to it to make them playable.

Absolutely correct.



They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest. Not good enough for you?


It's not a 1 minute debuff, it's a 1 minute debuff /death /rest (raids=no rest).
Not if they didn't consier what a multi-minute penalty would mean to pugs, cusual players and especially how it would affect high level content and raids. If anything recent suggest that there is a serious weak link or two in the testing chain. I'd hate for more and more changes to be implemented without realizing the full consequences.

P.S. If you were fear immune due to an item or a Greater Hero, that acquired fear immunity won't vanish correct?

SableShadow
12-13-2007, 10:51 PM
Unfortunately, what these changes mean to me is that this kind of "nice guy" behavior is probably going to disappear quick.

There are some shades of this already with the changes to the raiding dynamics and the structure of some quests.

Personnally, I like that death would now have some sort of penalty at the cap; discussing tactics before entering a quest or engaging a heavy encounter would become a more common event.

However, I already see folks wanting to stack parties with 'useful' classes (i.e. quest specific brute force).

This change would probably increase the trend.

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 10:55 PM
For 1-5 minutes, and 5 minutes is only for the 11-14 set...

When we discussed this with Eladrin back in September, several of us voiced concern about timer debuffs. Do you gimp along or will power gamers announce they will be AFK for 1-5 minutes? Both are not fun.

Up thread I suggested a) the debuffs are too light a penalty as is, and b) leave them as is but add a stacking -1 CON per death removable by true resurrection or the Undying Call (this was just before I was lead to the Guillotine :)).

I'm excited to test this all out. On Risia now now now!

no it will be 11-16 so basically if we go to lvl 20 we will spend half the game at the max penalty. Every time there is a level increase there is a fundamental shift as to where the mid level are. Right now they sit at 7-9 with 11 being the magic number. So basically starting at lvl 8 essentially the mid point of the game for lvl 16 end cap we will be 80% down the road for max death penalty. Say we get to level 20 level 10-11 will be the new mid point yet you will have reached max death penalty for half of your characters levels. Another example of Turbine failing to look ahead to a lvl 20 end game.

Eladrin
12-13-2007, 11:21 PM
Say we get to level 20 level 10-11 will be the new mid point yet you will have reached max death penalty for half of your characters levels. Another example of Turbine failing to look ahead to a lvl 20 end game.
Actually, that was completely intentional, and based entirely on the full planned level progression. It certainly wasn't planned for level 14 characters, considering it's coming out in a module in which we're raising the level cap to 16.


If you were fear immune due to an item or a Greater Hero, that acquired fear immunity won't vanish correct?
Greater Heroism will drop if you die, but you can get it recast on you. If you're immune to fear, then the penalty to saves vs. fear won't mean much. That portion of the death penalty is mostly flavor, as I don't really expect it to come up too often.


It's not a 1 minute debuff, it's a 1 minute debuff /death /rest (raids=no rest).
Not if they didn't consier what a multi-minute penalty would mean to pugs, cusual players and especially how it would affect high level content and raids. If anything recent suggest that there is a serious weak link or two in the testing chain. I'd hate for more and more changes to be implemented without realizing the full consequences.
Resting will reset your count to zero, so it's a 1 minute debuff per death that decays pretty quickly. If you only die once between shrines, the negative level will be almost gone by the time you finish rebuffing. If you die five times between shrines, well, it'll admittedly be a bit slower to go away.

Some raids (Tempest Spine and the Module 6 Raid Zone) have opportunities for rest, as they're not single encounters.


They decided that a one minute debuff was better than one that lasted the entire quest.
Yes, originally we experimented with the lowest phase of the death debuffs being "until rest". We weren't happy with the results.


I don't really mind the changes that impose a temporary penalty on the players. The long term impact, however, seem clearly to be part of an agenda to address Turbine concerns that are unrelated and unlinkable to death. Ways to encourage players to want to grind merely to maintain the status of their characters. It's a lot (no, exactly) like how the Dragonscale armors started out needing 10 relics to repair (and then dropped to 5 and in the future, 3) - they realized it "sucked the life" out of playing the game. Once a game starts to feel like work - where's the fun?
We actually thought that by removing permanent damage from bound objects that it would have an opposite effect - you'll never have to worry about your (dragonscale armor / vorpal sword / whatever) getting destroyed over time, where before they would eventually decay to uselessness. Collecting Khyber Dragonshard Fragments is not going to be a grind, I guarantee that.

Monetary costs due to repairing equipment may or may not be higher - we cut repair costs and permanent damage rates across the board because you might be repairing more often. If you don't die often, everything is intended to be a positive change, even if you never bind an object.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 11:28 PM
Monetary costs due to repairing equipment may or may not be higher - we cut repair costs and permanent damage rates across the board because you might be repairing more often. If you don't die often, everything is intended to be a positive change, even if you never bind an object.


Still...if one of your stated priorities was dealing with people being unhappy with equipment damage...why would you introduce a new and arbitrary method of inflicting damage? You are leaving your D&D foundation, leaving behind any common sense explaination of the damage, and just doing something for punative reasons. That's not fun and it goes directly against what you say you were trying to accomplish. The debuff is fine, but the punative damage has to go.

CrazySamaritan
12-14-2007, 12:03 AM
Still...if one of your stated priorities was dealing with people being unhappy with equipment damage...why would you introduce a new and arbitrary method of inflicting damage? You are leaving your D&D foundation, leaving behind any common sense explanation of the damage, and just doing something for punitive reasons. That's not fun and it goes directly against what you say you were trying to accomplish. The debuff is fine, but the punitive damage has to go.

DON'T DIE!!!!!


Seriously, you cannot expect me to believe that you're dying 9+ times in a quest accidentally, do you? You're either in a quest that you need to recall and regroup from, or you're using your ability to /death to pull some trick. Last time I died more than five times in a row, I was trying to do INVADERS! on elite, and I had been forced to recall already to replenish my spell points (never got the chest, either).

Would you rather getting 4 hp as a first level sorcerer, and requiring the event of a 9th level cleric to come by and cast Raise Dead so you can lose 2 CON? I think you'd rather re-roll. How about losing an entire level, permanently? Or several, if the cleric can raise you?


Turbine has chosen instead to grant you an artifact that can raise you an infinite number of times in your quests, along with clerics who know when you die, AND "forgive me, your honours, may it please the court" decided to break how the raise dead spells resurrect you. You want to complain about losing some gold instead of XP? You want to moan/*****/gripe because your DM would rather see you lose some gold, which is infinite, than some XP which is limited? It sounds to me, that what you want, "forgive me, your honours, may it please the court" What you want, SIR, is to have everything handed to you upon a silver platter, "forgive me, your honours, may it please the court" so that you DON'T have to make the effort to 'win' through normal means.

"forgive me, your honours, may it please the court", I need some KotDt to finish this.

GlassCannon
12-14-2007, 12:12 AM
DON'T DIE!!!!!


Seriously, you cannot expect me to believe that you're dying 9+ times in a quest accidentally, do you?

Yes.

Especially newbies.

Particularly in parties with incompetent players in the Healing role.

The new changes should kill just a little more of the population, but add "realism" to those that keep demanding it here on the forums, despite the fact that most of the actual players in-game do not mind(did I say they don't mind? They really don't) the current setup of XP loss, as opposed to this rather extremely(did I mention obscene? How about ridiculous?) irritating method.

I, among many others, utterly loathe debuffs, particularly Enervate(the DM's way of saying "Get the f*** out of my house, and I never want to see you again, your character is dead").

Havok34
12-14-2007, 12:13 AM
So lets do the math.

Normally I was repairing 1-3 items after a quest. Usually with 1-5 pts of damage. Rarely did I let items get hammered before repairing.

So now if you die. You will have to repair minimum of 14 items and 10 percent damage to each item.

Let's say it is 1,000gp to repair each item at 5 pts damage. 3 items 3,000gp.

Now you have 14 items with (lets see, mimium durability on any of my equipped items: 50 with several items in the 100-200 range). So those 14 items may rate 2,000gp each? average. 10 pts of damage each. 28,000gp even with 25% discount I am still around 21,000gp spent to repair.

Repair prices are as I said made up. But the idea is still the same. twice the damage average 10pts vs 5 pts. and almost 5 times the items.

Tell me Eladrin how this will be less expensive?

GeneralDiomedes
12-14-2007, 12:24 AM
Repair prices are as I said made up. But the idea is still the same. twice the damage average 10pts vs 5 pts. and almost 5 times the items.

Tell me Eladrin how this will be less expensive?

They pushed costs onto the death penalty. For some, this may work out to be less expensive overall. For others, more expensive.

Glin
12-14-2007, 12:34 AM
We'll be watching for more discussion on this topic as the fine tuning is done for Module 6 - Risia is all packaged up and getting prepped for patching.

There have been some great discussions in this thread. We expect to get a lot of different opinions. There is a wonderful blend of play styles in-game and I think that speaks to one of the successes of DDO. These improvements have been thought out extensively. I have seen a lot of positive and negative reactions on the forums, much like the discussions we have had ourselves for a very long time. That said, we will be watching for real play-test feedback, in the end, it absolutely matters what the real game experience is.

Changing something this intrinsic to game play is not being done haphazardly. The long term result of the XP penalty, and how it has evolved since launch, has proven to be unhealthy to game play and how players react to it. These changes should not be a shock to the game play experience. I don't have expectations that this will solve the bigger issue in one module - to elaborate, the result of this change will strengthen the community, quest experience, and the economy over time. DDO has grown immensely since launch and we have huge passionate thoughtful long term plans to continue to improve upon it.

Big_Russ
12-14-2007, 12:39 AM
Just my two cp. . .

1. Dolurhh death penalties--I can see how this would be a decent idea to at least try. It would encourage more strategy in play. I have no problems in trying that part out. Die several times and rest--no real harm done.

2. Item damage death penalties--I do have a problem with this primarily on two levels. First is griefers (and I THINK the only place this will apply to is in the Reaver raid). If someone wants to end your quest fast and laugh at you while doing it, it is very possible with this system. Break your weapons and armor, you are out of luck. Second is dragon armor. I realize that this does not apply to everybody, but it applies to a lot of people. Honestly, if I am wearing this armor still at level 16 or above, I really do not want to have to take time and go FARM the Gianthold quests every 10 deaths. Why should a player be forced to run much lower level quests just to get items to repair his armor. Doesn't it seem to you devs that the player base would much rather be running quests that are their level or above for the challenge instead of sleep walking through PoP?

3. Bound items taking no permenant damage--Not too shabby of an idea. Honestly though, I will just farm shards until I can bind all my important stuff. This will not keep me from having a bank full of unbound items to transfer to future characters.

Now, here is what I would do differently. I know that this just adds yet ANOTHER level of coding, but you have demonstrated with the new changes to the Abbot raid that such things are possible. You should remove these penalties on NORMAL difficulty. Add the Dolurhh penalties on HARD difficulty. Add the item damage penalties on ELITE difficulty. This will allow for true exploration on normal difficulties. No worries about server lag spikes, no worries about monsters with magical-mystery immunities to have to learn about, no worries about potential griefers. Just good dungeon crawling. Then as a party become more familiar with the quest, an increase in difficulty will not only mean inflated monster hit dice, it will also add real danger from dieing.

GeneralDiomedes
12-14-2007, 12:44 AM
Most capped players generally don't die when doing familiar quests, but try learning a raid when it first comes out, and you don't want to wait till someone shows you how to do it. The group that beat the titan before they changed it went through 100 rez scrolls to do it. That feat would never have happened as all of them them would have broken equipment and no way to leave and come back. Turbine has designed raids to kill you over and over again till you get used to it and know what do do. A dragon run on elite can easily have 2 or 3 wipes and regroups before velah finally goes down. So yes hardcore players tend to die a lot more because those players tend to do things first, blazing the way for more casual players to do it later on.

First it was the death of the PUG, now it's the death of the trailblazing elite players? I would tend to think that those type of players will find a way to get it done. The singular Titan example is nice, but since they changed the Titan basically the next day, I don't think anyone would have really missed that feat if it had never happened. Someone would have beaten the Titan within a week.

I mean really, with the new changes, you can basically set yourself up so that you lose nothing from a failed experiment other than money and time. You can bind equipment so nothing takes permanent dmg, and a loot run can make you back the repair money. Instead of using the brute force method by default, perhaps you can take the path of progressing further and further each time you try (and fail).

Another problem with the XP debt is that some players felt they were staring into the abyss of never advancing their character when some new difficult quests came out. This sentiment was particularly strong when Mod 3 was first released with the big XP debt changes. I believe this system will have a less negative impact on those type of players.

Only time will tell, as always.

DaveyCrockett
12-14-2007, 01:02 AM
First it was the death of the PUG, now it's the death of the trailblazing elite players? I would tend to think that those type of players will find a way to get it done. The singular Titan example is nice, but since they changed the Titan basically the next day, I don't think anyone would have really missed that feat if it had never happened. Someone would have beaten the Titan within a week. [/QIPTE]

So let's look at a more modern example - Abbot on Elite. This is going to make that one very unpleasant for the 'pioneers'.

[QUOTE=GeneralDiomedes;1474573] I mean really, with the new changes, you can basically set yourself up so that you lose nothing from a failed experiment other than money and time. You can bind equipment so nothing takes permanent dmg, and a loot run can make you back the repair money. Instead of using the brute force method by default, perhaps you can take the path of progressing further and further each time you try (and fail).

1) Who wants to bind every piece of nice equipment that they have? I certainly do NOT.
2) It's not about the price of repair, it's about the items becoming unequipped in the middle of a raid, and me standing there naked, debuffed, and without the proper weapon to attack the boss that has 10% life left.



Another problem with the XP debt is that some players felt they were staring into the abyss of never advancing their character when some new difficult quests came out. This sentiment was particularly strong when Mod 3 was first released with the big XP debt changes. I believe this system will have a less negative impact on those type of players.

Only time will tell, as always.

That problem was mostly eliminated when the XP penalty was reduced. You can lose -80k xp without trying, and with the space of the level increases, what does negative xp really matter?

Warrax23
12-14-2007, 01:36 AM
Wow, I'm sure glad I have wasted so much on fighter item defense....

This is gonna make a lot of people angry and stop playing...

Good luck...

Hakushi
12-14-2007, 01:42 AM
I personally have no problems with a temporary debuff on death, but the damage everything equipped seems a bit harsh. Right now, when In quests, I repair and have sometimes none, and most times 3-4 items with damage, sometimes more, but not that much. I could have died a few times or not in the process, but let's say I died only once, according that I did not ran a raid. If I run a raid, like Stormreaver, chances are that I might die a few more times. I really do have a problem with the item damage because even if you halved the permanent damage chances, it will be 3, 4 and even 5 times items with a lot more damage that will need to be repaired, resulting in a dramatically improve of permanent damage on items.

If you really intend to keep this, make the Free Agents favor at least worthwhile and expand it to all items instead of just armor and weapons. Make the Expert repairer a real expert repairer by lowering the chances of permanent damage because with a change like that, you will have to repair a lot more then you used to be. But this won't change anything to the ones who will get all the problems that new system, the new players or causual players who can't have the better repairs.

I personally suggest to rethink the item damage portion of the death penality and even remove it totally and maybe add a -1 to every stat in the debuff instead of item damage.

I know the canned awnser will be to bind your items to prevent the permanent damage but what if people do not want to bind their items. Did you knew that bound items are really not that popular. I do not talk about raid loot here but everything else that binds. If you bind it, you won't be able to show your friends your favorite +5 Holy Burst rapier of Pure Good or your +3 Vorpal Sickle or whatever. It may sounds stupid, but people like to show to other players their favorite weapons without having to take a screenshot and posting it on a website. A small issue I know, but it will just remove the fun some people have together. And why you would want to bind an item, just to remove the chances of getting permanent damage? It will mean that item will be sold to a vendor when you find a better version in a chest instead of trading it (people like to trade) or giving it to a friend, guildie or to a new player or anyone who would need it and use it.

Asirin
12-14-2007, 01:48 AM
I've always been a pretty "decent" guy when it came to pugs, as in I'd put up with a lot of stuff just to get the quest done. I've been known the throw a few hundred heal scrolls at a problem group, just to be a nice guy.

Unfortunately, what these changes mean to me is that this kind of "nice guy" behavior is probably going to disappear quick. It's one thing to laugh and joke around while playing this game... it's something totally different to criss-cross aimlessly through a quest or follow blindly repeating the same mistakes about weapons and armor or which mobs to attack or what strategy to use when.

The simple change that will happen with my playstyle is simple. I'm simply not going to be able to accept bad groups any more. Whereas before I could recall and regroup after a wipe or drag stones back before... now I'm simply going to bow out and drop group gracefully. I will probably pug less, and be more willing to simply leave party when someone immature or a little too crazy for my playstyle enters the group.

Basically they made death at all levels mean something. It's true, it's what the purist players wanted, and the fun-time players didn't. I don't have a problem with actually suffering a consequence from dying. Heck one dev even stated pretty clearly that dying should not be a viable tactic... I kinda agree with that concept.

Of course my guild will see a whole lot more of me, as those are people I trust. But pugs... well I just became much less of a nice person in pugs because of this. And I'm not quite sure what I think about that yet. Maybe time will tell.

I agree wholeheartedly...to sum it up Be careful what you ask for/whine about.

Asirin
12-14-2007, 01:57 AM
Just my two cp. . .

1. Dolurhh death penalties--I can see how this would be a decent idea to at least try. It would encourage more strategy in play. I have no problems in trying that part out. Die several times and rest--no real harm done.

2. Item damage death penalties--I do have a problem with this primarily on two levels. First is griefers (and I THINK the only place this will apply to is in the Reaver raid). If someone wants to end your quest fast and laugh at you while doing it, it is very possible with this system. Break your weapons and armor, you are out of luck. Second is dragon armor. I realize that this does not apply to everybody, but it applies to a lot of people. Honestly, if I am wearing this armor still at level 16 or above, I really do not want to have to take time and go FARM the Gianthold quests every 10 deaths. Why should a player be forced to run much lower level quests just to get items to repair his armor. Doesn't it seem to you devs that the player base would much rather be running quests that are their level or above for the challenge instead of sleep walking through PoP?

3. Bound items taking no permenant damage--Not too shabby of an idea. Honestly though, I will just farm shards until I can bind all my important stuff. This will not keep me from having a bank full of unbound items to transfer to future characters.

Now, here is what I would do differently. I know that this just adds yet ANOTHER level of coding, but you have demonstrated with the new changes to the Abbot raid that such things are possible. You should remove these penalties on NORMAL difficulty. Add the Dolurhh penalties on HARD difficulty. Add the item damage penalties on ELITE difficulty. This will allow for true exploration on normal difficulties. No worries about server lag spikes, no worries about monsters with magical-mystery immunities to have to learn about, no worries about potential griefers. Just good dungeon crawling. Then as a party become more familiar with the quest, an increase in difficulty will not only mean inflated monster hit dice, it will also add real danger from dieing.
Wow a meaningful post that offers solutions that seem highly feasible and well thought out.Expecially the part about the penalty adjusting to the difficulty.I think it would put a crimp in the plans one person who insists elite regardless of the partys concerns.

CrazySamaritan
12-14-2007, 02:21 AM
Yes.

Especially newbies.

Particularly in parties with incompetent players in the Healing role.No.

No. No. No. No. And again, NO. Nonononono, no-no-nono-nonono-no-no, NO.


This gives the implication that quests get easier as levels increase, which defies logic (as you increase in level MORE things are there to kill you, not less). That players should ALWAYS rely on other party members to remain at enough health to continue effective combat. Not to mention the factor that dying 9+ times at level 5 is going to be comparable to dying 3+ times at level 12. [eaten by cube] how it first felt when you completed a quest with twice as much -XP as you would have earned from the quest in the first place.

Answer me honestly; do you want to spend gold or XP on death?
Gold is infinite, XP is forever limited.

brshelton
12-14-2007, 02:32 AM
lets murder the guy who pulls the reaver rez switch 20 times in a row.... damn all my items just got destroyed!

Nirvana
12-14-2007, 03:44 AM
lets murder the guy who pulls the reaver rez switch 20 times in a row.... damn all my items just got destroyed!

Sorry bro, I just can't stop it.... I just love to see naked ppl with broken gears around.

lenric
12-14-2007, 03:49 AM
Just my two cp. . .

1. Dolurhh death penalties--I can see how this would be a decent idea to at least try. It would encourage more strategy in play. I have no problems in trying that part out. Die several times and rest--no real harm done.

2. Item damage death penalties--I do have a problem with this primarily on two levels. First is griefers (and I THINK the only place this will apply to is in the Reaver raid). If someone wants to end your quest fast and laugh at you while doing it, it is very possible with this system. Break your weapons and armor, you are out of luck. Second is dragon armor. I realize that this does not apply to everybody, but it applies to a lot of people. Honestly, if I am wearing this armor still at level 16 or above, I really do not want to have to take time and go FARM the Gianthold quests every 10 deaths. Why should a player be forced to run much lower level quests just to get items to repair his armor. Doesn't it seem to you devs that the player base would much rather be running quests that are their level or above for the challenge instead of sleep walking through PoP?

3. Bound items taking no permenant damage--Not too shabby of an idea. Honestly though, I will just farm shards until I can bind all my important stuff. This will not keep me from having a bank full of unbound items to transfer to future characters.

Now, here is what I would do differently. I know that this just adds yet ANOTHER level of coding, but you have demonstrated with the new changes to the Abbot raid that such things are possible. You should remove these penalties on NORMAL difficulty. Add the Dolurhh penalties on HARD difficulty. Add the item damage penalties on ELITE difficulty. This will allow for true exploration on normal difficulties. No worries about server lag spikes, no worries about monsters with magical-mystery immunities to have to learn about, no worries about potential griefers. Just good dungeon crawling. Then as a party become more familiar with the quest, an increase in difficulty will not only mean inflated monster hit dice, it will also add real danger from dieing.

This says it all, the last paragraph is a great idea and I think that it will really put doing a quest normal,elite,hard have a much greater meaning.

roggane
12-14-2007, 04:01 AM
We actually thought that by removing permanent damage from bound objects that it would have an opposite effect - you'll never have to worry about your (dragonscale armor / vorpal sword / whatever) getting destroyed over time, where before they would eventually decay to uselessness. Collecting Khyber Dragonshard Fragments is not going to be a grind, I guarantee that.


So, we bind an item, then the item is somehow made irrelevant to us (better items, switching of item slots, etc) and can't be passed on to a lower level alt or traded.

If we don't bind the item, it sounds like we'll take even more damage when we die than weapons currently do now just running through quests.

Quite the quandry you've come up with here. To bind or not to bind?

Personally, I'd rather have xp debt than killing my items either through being forced to bind them or being degraded enough they're useless for trading anyhow.

I think you'll have more upset people this way than with xp debt upon death. Anyone else think it could possibly trigger higher prices on the AH b/c items will be even more rare (less supply/bound items) and stunting trades of items (less supply)?

Kulhwch
12-14-2007, 04:52 AM
Is the item damage from death permanent item damage or can your items still be repaired?

gpk
12-14-2007, 04:54 AM
Is the item damage from death permanent item damage or can your items still be repaired?

It can still be repaired, but of course can cause more permanent damage to unbound items if you die more (for whatever reason)

I'm still unsure as to the motivations behind item damage on death, I can see it causing even more trouble and more player division (ubers vs n00bs) than the Dolurhh effects.
There are plenty of way you can get someone killed, intentionally or not, the potential for abuse and squabbles are there. A potentially permanent penalty for dying (item damage) "because of someone else" can't lead to good things.

Kulhwch
12-14-2007, 05:17 AM
Hmm, yeah, not sure if I like a potentially permanent death effect, either. At least with the XP penalty, it wore off eventually.

This also really seems to favor the powergamers. The casual player, I fear, is going to have a hard time affording the repair bills. The casual player has fewer high-end items in his characters' inventories, so is more likely to want to leave his items unbound so they can be handed down to lower level characters. The casual player is going to have a harder time collecting the fragments to bind an item, in any case.

The powergamer with 10 vorpals, 20 paralyzers, 15 disruptors, etc. has no incentive not to bind every item. He also will have plenty of fragments with which to do so.

I understand that the point is to make players want to bind more of their items in order to affect the supply of elite loot on the market, but this method really seems to punish the casual player while causing the powergamer no inconvenience whatsoever.

Would it be possible to allow characters associated with a single account shared use of bound items? That would go a long way toward allaying my concerns, while still achieving the desired aims of the devs.

honkuimushi
12-14-2007, 06:16 AM
The debuff seems too short to matter, and the item damage seems too harsh. Item damage is probably my least favorite design aspect to this game. It makes you afraid to use your best weapons. It was not part of my experience playing 2nd edition, and while it is a factor in 3rd due to sunder, there are spells to fix items and rules for fixing destroyed magical items. There is no chance of "Permanent Damage" with these methods. Item damage is something I have only reluctantly accepted. My 12th level Fighter uses a Flaming Burst Longsword of Lesser Giant Bane as his primary weapon because it is made of Byeshk. I have better weapon, including a Vorpal, but It keeps repairs down and permanent damage low. When I see slimes I quickly switch to my muckbanes. Before I get a muckbane, I buy 1 cp clubs for slimes. When I repair, I hold my breath hoping i don't get permanent damage. I buy +1 maces just for the Catacombs series because I know I will destroy any weapon i use there. In short, I hate item damage.

Now i see a mechanic due to be added that will probably increase my damage 10x. Normally, I have very little damage, maybe 1-5 % on my weapons and maybe a few other items(catacombs aside.) But I do die on occasion. I like to solo quests on occasion and I admit to dying on occasion. And when I face Beholders, I die more than occasionally. 1 death would at least double the damage I take on every item I'm using. I appreciate that bound loot will no longer take permanent damage. I would hate to lose raid loot from damage. I like the chance to customize some items and I agree that tose items must be bound. But I don't want to bind everything I have. It's not that I mean to pass on items once I outgrow them, most of them I sell to the brokers or put on the AH.

I just hate the feeling of the game targeting my stuff. I did not play Everquest, and I don't think I would have stayed if I had tried it due to the item damage system. This is my first MMO. I came for D&D. I wouldn't put up with a DM targeting my items like this. I enjoy this game, but this is targeting a real sore point with me. I would rather go back to the old death penalty values without debt regen than increase item damage. I have had a few lucky pulls, but I am off-peak and mostly play in PUGs. I haven't played a lot of the highest level content or raids beyond the dragon and TS. Most of my loot is pretty average. I don't want to choose between immeadiately binding a nice pull, using it only sparingly, or watch it get beat to death in a much shorter amount of time than now. This is enough to make me consider playing something else.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-14-2007, 06:20 AM
Changing something this intrinsic to game play is not being done haphazardly. The long term result of the XP penalty, and how it has evolved since launch, has proven to be unhealthy to game play and how players react to it. These changes should not be a shock to the game play experience.

How can you not think that 10% damage to items wouldn't cause shock? XP penalty will disappear with time, damage is a cash sync and can permanently damage your equipment. There is no doubt that equipment damage is more harmful to the player.

NiasTrams
12-14-2007, 06:22 AM
So, we bind an item, then the item is somehow made irrelevant to us (better items, switching of item slots, etc) and can't be passed on to a lower level alt or traded...

...Anyone else think it could possibly trigger higher prices on the AH b/c items will be even more rare (less supply/bound items) and stunting trades of items (less supply)?

I hope prices will rise on the AH, but also hope some people will get relistic about how much items should sell for. I just put a Bloodstone, +6 seeker trinket, up for sale on the AH. I set the starting price at 100K G.P., in less than one day it rose to over 1.1 mil GP, other people have been asking for 5 mil and 15 mil GP, to me, starting off with really high prices isn't seeing what the market will bear as much as sellers being greedy and trying to get a winfall from some deluded buyer that this is a truly UBER item. For some people it makes their weapons very UBER, but others only see it as a trinket, for me a trinket to sell and hopefully get a sweet price for my work in farming it.

All I do is pugs, and with recent problems with my hands, raids and a couple items I farm is all I play now. Literally; 3 toons, totalling 10 raids total and 6 chest checked about 10 times each; occassionally I farm more chest. But that is me.

Will break down last five raids:

12 man Reaver Raid; heavy cleric count (5), only 1 wizard and 1 bard, resaulted in several deaths and multiple pulls on the rez lever in the death room; under proposed changes to death penalty doubt this PUG would of completed raid successfully; but under current conditions it was fun for me because it wasn't the ideal party make-up of 2 - 3 clerics, 3 - 4 arcane casters (1 or 2 being Dancing sphere casters), 2 or more tanks and balance of party in the "whatever" wants to run fill-ins.

12 man Reaver Raid; Ideal party make-up of 3 clerics, 5 arcane casters (1 being Dancing sphere caster), 2 or more tanks and balance of 2 party members in the "whatever" wants to run fill-ins.

12 man Reaver Raid; Ideal party make-up of 2 clerics, 5 arcane casters (2 being Dancing sphere casters), 2 or more tanks and balance of 3 party members in the "whatever" wants to run fill-ins.

6 man Titan Raid; 1 cleric, 1 bard, 4 non-caster classes; expect short man titan raids to become a thing of the past but not sure if PUGs will increase, at least PUGs with majority of strangers playing together.

12 man Titan raid; I do not remember party make-up other than only 1 cleric and 1 rogue leading the party.

Both Titan raids and 1 of the Reaver raids would have been quite costly due to extreme number of deaths it took to complete the raids; the current system was costly in XP debt, the proposed changes to item damage based on death would definitely of caused a longer delay in starting the one Reaver raid and probably would of seen more naked people doing to preraid to Titan to minimize damage to equipment since "rez walking" through pre-raid is currently most popular way for inexperienced as well as experienced players to get to Titan raid.

Finding PUGs to spend 2 to 3 hours to do pre-raid and raid on Titan will most likely become harder as more guilds adopt a "no outsider unless known" policy for that raid; but parties, once formed, will spend 2 to 3 hours completing the pre-raid as well as the raid.

I fore see putting together parties in non-prime-time hours becoming more difficult and more players in those time slots becoming more discouraged with Turbine. To overcome these new issues I would suggest an ingame bulletine board system that links all servers and allows for toons to be moved, for free, to different servers for scheduled events and once a month allow free moving of characters to a different server so people on at the same time can find and group together.

I am going to need more time to think of what may or may not happen with these changes, I feel like there will definitely be positive and negative results from these changes; the question is will the positives out weigh the negatives and what tweeking will need to be done bacause of the changes and to the changes?

Lorien_the_First_One
12-14-2007, 06:22 AM
The debuff seems too short to matter, and the item damage seems too harsh. Item damage is probably my least favorite design aspect to this game. It makes you afraid to use your best weapons. It was not part of my experience playing 2nd edition, and while it is a factor in 3rd due to sunder, there are spells to fix items and rules for fixing destroyed magical items. There is no chance of "Permanent Damage" with these methods. Item damage is something I have only reluctantly accepted. My 12th level Fighter uses a Flaming Burst Longsword of Lesser Giant Bane as his primary weapon because it is made of Byeshk. I have better weapon, including a Vorpal, but It keeps repairs down and permanent damage low. When I see slimes I quickly switch to my muckbanes. Before I get a muckbane, I buy 1 cp clubs for slimes. When I repair, I hold my breath hoping i don't get permanent damage. I buy +1 maces just for the Catacombs series because I know I will destroy any weapon i use there. In short, I hate item damage.

Now i see a mechanic due to be added that will probably increase my damage 10x. Normally, I have very little damage, maybe 1-5 % on my weapons and maybe a few other items(catacombs aside.) But I do die on occasion. I like to solo quests on occasion and I admit to dying on occasion. And when I face Beholders, I die more than occasionally. 1 death would at least double the damage I take on every item I'm using. I appreciate that bound loot will no longer take permanent damage. I would hate to lose raid loot from damage. I like the chance to customize some items and I agree that tose items must be bound. But I don't want to bind everything I have. It's not that I mean to pass on items once I outgrow them, most of them I sell to the brokers or put on the AH.

I just hate the feeling of the game targeting my stuff. I did not play Everquest, and I don't think I would have stayed if I had tried it due to the item damage system. This is my first MMO. I came for D&D. I wouldn't put up with a DM targeting my items like this. I enjoy this game, but this is targeting a real sore point with me. I would rather go back to the old death penalty values without debt regen than increase item damage. I have had a few lucky pulls, but I am off-peak and mostly play in PUGs. I haven't played a lot of the highest level content or raids beyond the dragon and TS. Most of my loot is pretty average. I don't want to choose between immeadiately binding a nice pull, using it only sparingly, or watch it get beat to death in a much shorter amount of time than now. This is enough to make me consider playing something else.

That's exactly how I feel....

Riorik
12-14-2007, 06:43 AM
DON'T DIE!!!!!


Seriously, you cannot expect me to believe that you're dying 9+ times in a quest accidentally, do you? You're either in a quest that you need to recall and regroup from, or you're using your ability to /death to pull some trick. Last time I died more than five times in a row, I was trying to do INVADERS! on elite, and I had been forced to recall already to replenish my spell points (never got the chest, either).


Well, just last night I jumped into an ADQ (Against the Demon Queen) and at that particular point, one of our more overzealous types had already duo'd the quest up to the shrine (yeah, it's an easy quest). I use a group of greater resist cloaks on my melee character to avoid fun things like fire damage from the next set of enemies, and I'd somehow set it to my cold resist item. First few went fine because I was screwing around and banishing enemies fairly quickly...and then I noticed I was getting hammered fighting the next group...at which point I pulled a duh and died before I figured out what I'd done.

So yeah, I laughed about it - no harm, no foul really - just had to get to the nearest shrine. Under this new regime, all of my equipment just took 10% damage. Yes, I am in the habit of hitting the repair guy in Zawabi's after doing the quest and all would be fine, however, in this particular scenario, all my stuff would have been hammered.

Sandstorm Goggles (bound)
+5 Mithral Full Plate
Chaosgarde
Ring of Balance (bound)
Golden Greaves
+6 Dexterity Gloves
Ring of Protection +5
Belt of the Mroranon (bound)
Cloak of Greater Fire Resistance
Mummified Bat
+4 Health Necklace
+5 Charismatic Circlet
Kundarak Warding Shield (bound)

So anyways, this is my typical set of equipment in use. Some slots vary a bit, and I didn't bother to list my weapon since that is often one of 4 different options (have more weapons, just those 4 are common), 2 of which are bound items (SoS & Tenderizer).

The thing is, just yesterday I opted to swap to a different suit of +5 Mithral Full Plate and was thinking of selling or trading the other for something else I might need. Given this plan, to avoid getting the item utterly hammered, I'm being encouraged to bind the item. So ok, Eladrin says that getting the fragments will never be a grind. However, I'm about to lose the flexibility to move my equipment around at least between my own characters let alone sell or trade them when I no longer need them.

Same thing applies to other items - I started using the Reavers Amulet on two characters (I never use the term toons) which allowed me to swap out from use some other items that I might have chosen to sell on the AH or at least move around/make available for use by other characters. If I bind to prevent permanent damage, I can't.

So - thanks Eladrin, I appreciate the response and like that getting the fragments will not be a grind, however, that's only a fraction of my point. Not being able to move equipment around between characters - at least my own account - and me fighting the urge to bind items so I can retain that option - will significantly affect my play style. The grind will be that I will have to make a choice and it'll probably mean I can't move equipment between characters once I get something new for a single character.

What I think is, having ALL of your in-use equipment taking 10% damage is rediculous. If you're going to do this, then it needs to be a whole new class of damage that is always 100% of the time not permanent and never results in permanent damage. I can live with taking damage - being encouraged (almost required from my opinion) to bind them will result in scenarios that simple do not appeal to my at all. I don't die a lot - but I can do stupid stuff from time to time.

CSFurious
12-14-2007, 06:50 AM
that some people still do not understand what the devs are doing here

first, they want their content to last longer

second, they want to stop twinking &/or take uber-items out of circulation

i do not think either will be that effective, but who can blame the devs for trying

Dariun
12-14-2007, 07:00 AM
You should remove these penalties on NORMAL difficulty. Add the Dolurhh penalties on HARD difficulty. Add the item damage penalties on ELITE difficulty.

This is a good suggestion.

Especially for the item damage. I would also suggest the item damage be reduced in any event to max 5%/death rather than max 10%/death (or else set to only be for your 1st death so you cannot end up getting 60% damage to all items in one quest).

I don't think the unhappiness about item damage that everyone is posting about is just an initial negative reaction of forum posters. I think it will anger 90% of the player base and take some joy out of DDO.

I like to think I'm a friend of DDO. :) And, as a friend, I'm telling you: don't implement 10% item damage per death. It will end in tears and hotfixes.

barecm
12-14-2007, 07:04 AM
There have been a ton of changes to this game. I have been in favor of some and against others. This one at the surface seems to be a very bad, bad idea. Probably the worst. Anytime you talk about introducing increased item wear it will seriously upset folks that spent the last two years trying to obtain good items. I am starting to think maybe the DDO staff is just trying to kill this game so that they will be re-assigned to a different Turbine title. I can't really explain it any other way.

Riorik
12-14-2007, 07:09 AM
A selective paraphrase - not a complete quote, just highlights.

There have been some great discussions in this thread. We expect to get a lot of different opinions.

These changes should not be a shock to the game play experience. I don't have expectations that this will solve the bigger issue in one module - to elaborate, the result of this change will strengthen the community, quest experience, and the economy over time. .

Impacts: Community, Quest Experience & Economy

Economy - impact here will be to increase repair bills, encourage binding, putting fewer items onto the AH because more are going to be bound, limiting twinking.

Quest Experience - discourage dying to the point where you're going to see fewer zergers, probably.

Community - Pushing groups back into the guild only groups?

One thing I liked a lot with the raid loot mechanic changes is it opened up the door to running raids with players that ordinarily I would never have run with. In the past, it was all guild because basically, we needed the reliable teamwork to accomplish the raids AND to administer our in house loot system. PUGS are typically of much more inconsistent quality than non-PUGs'. Take Ghosts of Perdition - I've been on a few PUG runs where we ended up wiping 4 or 5 times to get it done - a guild group wasn't available at the time so considering the penalty, it didn't matter. With this change, I'd probably have gone with the guild only group and probably not wiped at all.

Another issue, of course, are creatures that kill with a failed save - Beholders of course.

At the minimum, the damage frequency is going to become a huge problem. I am NOT a fan of complex rule systems where this difficulty does this or that or not - but all items getting damaged (and I mostly only have capped characters so I'm looking at 1 massive repair bill with permanent damage for unbound items every 10 deaths) is rediculous. I think the percentage of damage is silly - I also think ALL equipped items taking damage is silly. I think we should be talking about taking a total of 10% damage spread out amongst all current equipment...1% each, few percent to a few unlucky items...it's still a penalty that likely will result in long-term impacts, just not something that overnight transforms the game into "protect my stuff!!!!!!"

Nax

Ron
12-14-2007, 07:18 AM
The debuff seems too short to matter, and the item damage seems too harsh. Item damage is probably my least favorite design aspect to this game. It makes you afraid to use your best weapons. It was not part of my experience playing 2nd edition, and while it is a factor in 3rd due to sunder, there are spells to fix items and rules for fixing destroyed magical items. There is no chance of "Permanent Damage" with these methods. Item damage is something I have only reluctantly accepted. My 12th level Fighter uses a Flaming Burst Longsword of Lesser Giant Bane as his primary weapon because it is made of Byeshk. I have better weapon, including a Vorpal, but It keeps repairs down and permanent damage low. When I see slimes I quickly switch to my muckbanes. Before I get a muckbane, I buy 1 cp clubs for slimes. When I repair, I hold my breath hoping i don't get permanent damage. I buy +1 maces just for the Catacombs series because I know I will destroy any weapon i use there. In short, I hate item damage.

Sure, nobody likes to see their favorite weapon/armor/whatever take damage, especially permanent damage. But take a bit of time to look at the big picture. Item damage is there to keep the game economy in check, to an extent. You have to take "stuff" out of the game in roughly the same amount as it's coming in, or you have an out of control economy. Up to this point it hasn't really worked, in my opinion, since the influx of uber items is FAR more than what is being taken out of the game. Unfortunately, what we have is exactly that, a totally out of control economy.

But anyway, in answer to your particular hate, keep in mind that if you really don't like permanent damage, you can get rid of it by binding your items. Although you will still take item wear damage, you no longer have to hold your breath dreading the permanent damage anymore. So that should be a good change for you, I would think.

I think CSFurious is quite right, the devs are trying to take steps to fix the game economy (which is not the entire reason for the DP change, just a part of it). One, it will put a reign on the capped characters, who now have to worry about a DP (without a DP as it is now, they can run through content with impunity, picking up high level items at a very quick rate and putting them into circulation). Two, some people will be binding their items which effectively also takes them out of circulation (except for that character, so it's not a complete removal, but at least it's something, heh).

Will it completely fix our economy? No. There's almost no way to do that at this point (because to really fix it, you'd need to take out about 80% of the items in the game, hehe. Could you imagine the hue and cry that would go up, LOL). But it's a baby step in the right direction.

GrayOldDruid
12-14-2007, 07:41 AM
[eaten by cube]

Economy - Repair Bills are going to DECREASE!! HALF. Read the post. Limiting Twinking is a GOOOD thing. Encouraging NOT dying is a Good thing.

Quest Experience - Discouraging Zerging is a Good thing. Don't think this will really do that, but it would be a good side effect. I, for one, will be a LOT less worried about dying. A little item wear and lower repair bills that you can take care of on your way back into the quest - [eaten by cube]... WHY would you go back to the quest without repairing the minute damage? [eaten by cube] Although I must say that I would like to see more places to repair being closer to Bind points for this, but even if they're not, *Shrug*

Community - Having people actually COMMUNICATE to complete a Quest instead of just zerging ahead and expecting everyone else to try to keep up and keep them healed, buffed, etc... Good Thing.

Item Damage - When you get your arse handed to you, stuff you are carrying exposed is likely to get a bit scuffed. Look at it this way, you're not leaving it all on your corpse, having to run back to get it, naked. Plus - They HALVED the cost of repairs, DECREASED the chance for permanent damage. [eaten by cube]. You are acting like you PLAN on dying. Death is not a strategy. It is something to avoid. How about you try NOT dying? How about you repair every chance you get, not just every 10 deaths? How do you keep equipment now if you only repair every 10 deaths? How often do you die?

I ran madstone on elite last night - died about six times and it HURT a LOT - in XP. I would rather not have died at all. I think in at least a couple instances, I would have lived IF the group had maybe stayed together a bit more and nobody ran ahead and aggro'd mobs we were not ready for. Also heard a lot of "Oh, I'll just grab all aggro and die, doesn't matter to me..." While I greatly appreciated that sometimes IN the quest, I don't think it is really a good strategy overall. Some people were capped, but I still have one rank to go before hitting 14... so XP debt of 6,000+ hurt. I hope I gave our Cleric enough to cover the Rezz's the gave me... :D

Overall, the new penalty and the adjustments to repair costs, lower chance of permanent damage, are all VERY good... VERY VERY GOOD.

(as for Disintegrate, it is supposed to reduce you and everything you have on you to dust.... and you complain about a tiny amount of damage to equipped items?)

Hendrik
12-14-2007, 07:45 AM
[eaten by cube]

Economy - Repair Bills are going to DECREASE!! HALF. Read the post. Limiting Twinking is a GOOOD thing. Encouraging NOT dying is a Good thing.

Quest Experience - Discouraging Zerging is a Good thing. Don't think this will really do that, but it would be a good side effect. I, for one, will be a LOT less worried about dying. A little item wear and lower repair bills that you can take care of on your way back into the quest - [eaten by cube]... WHY would you go back to the quest without repairing the minute damage? [eaten by cube] Although I must say that I would like to see more places to repair being closer to Bind points for this, but even if they're not, *Shrug*

Community - Having people actually COMMUNICATE to complete a Quest instead of just zerging ahead and expecting everyone else to try to keep up and keep them healed, buffed, etc... Good Thing.

Item Damage - When you get your arse handed to you, stuff you are carrying exposed is likely to get a bit scuffed. Look at it this way, you're not leaving it all on your corpse, having to run back to get it, naked. Plus - They HALVED the cost of repairs, DECREASED the chance for permanent damage. [eaten by cube]. You are acting like you PLAN on dying. Death is not a strategy. It is something to avoid. How about you try NOT dying? How about you repair every chance you get, not just every 10 deaths? How do you keep equipment now if you only repair every 10 deaths? How often do you die?

I ran madstone on elite last night - died about six times and it HURT a LOT - in XP. I would rather not have died at all. I think in at least a couple instances, I would have lived IF the group had maybe stayed together a bit more and nobody ran ahead and aggro'd mobs we were not ready for. Also heard a lot of "Oh, I'll just grab all aggro and die, doesn't matter to me..." While I greatly appreciated that sometimes IN the quest, I don't think it is really a good strategy overall. Some people were capped, but I still have one rank to go before hitting 14... so XP debt of 6,000+ hurt. I hope I gave our Cleric enough to cover the Rezz's the gave me... :D

Overall, the new penalty and the adjustments to repair costs, lower chance of permanent damage, are all VERY good... VERY VERY GOOD.

(as for Disintegrate, it is supposed to reduce you and everything you have on you to dust.... and you complain about a tiny amount of damage to equipped items?)

I agree with you 110&#37; Gray.

When we have this on Risia, I plan to test the 10% max damage part and see if it is to much or not.

MysticTheurge
12-14-2007, 07:56 AM
Just to recap my two favorite suggestions from this thread so far:

1) In-quest ways to repair items. Repair skill should repair items at shrines, maybe just your own, maybe the whole party's (if the latter there should probably not be a chance for permanent damage). Additionally, the spells Mending and Make Whole should be implemented.

2) Different penalties on different difficulties. I think I'd go with the "death sickness" on all difficulties (or then there's no penalty for dying on normal) and item wear only on hard/elite. But I like the idea in general. Maybe you should even cap the penalties differently on different levels. Elite is as above, Hard caps out at 4 levels of death sickness and 8% wear, normal caps out at 3 levels and 6% wear.

Missing_Minds
12-14-2007, 08:06 AM
Yes.

Especially newbies.

Particularly in parties with incompetent players in the Healing role.

The new changes should kill just a little more of the population, but add "realism" to those that keep demanding it here on the forums, despite the fact that most of the actual players in-game do not mind(did I say they don't mind? They really don't) the current setup of XP loss, as opposed to this rather extremely(did I mention obscene? How about ridiculous?) irritating method.

I, among many others, utterly loathe debuffs, particularly Enervate(the DM's way of saying "Get the f*** out of my house, and I never want to see you again, your character is dead").

*snickers* too much first person shooters and just starting over again and again after dying, eh? When I started it was just myself or myself and a friend. Neither of us a healer. how much did we die... emmm... a handful at worst. People just have to change their attitudes that death is a bad thing is all.

I'm just worried that the debuffing is going to be like negative levels currently. Right now a negative level, if you look at your change to your stats is taking away the equivalent of 2 lvls, not 1.

I for one won't be sitting around waiting for debuffs to go away. But one thing is for certain. You can forget about completing some hard boss fights with these debuffs on elite.

Missing_Minds
12-14-2007, 08:08 AM
Just to recap my two favorite suggestions from this thread so far:

1) In-quest ways to repair items. Repair skill should repair items at shrines, maybe just your own, maybe the whole party's (if the latter there should probably not be a chance for permanent damage). Additionally, the spells Mending and Make Whole should be implemented.

2) Different penalties on different difficulties. I think I'd go with the "death sickness" on all difficulties (or then there's no penalty for dying on normal) and item wear only on hard/elite. But I like the idea in general. Maybe you should even cap the penalties differently on different levels. Elite is as above, Hard caps out at 4 levels of death sickness and 8% wear, normal caps out at 3 levels and 6% wear.

I can agree to these as well. Honestly, I wish we could repair gear at shrines and such.