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Luthen
12-13-2007, 10:46 AM
I did not want to derail you're most awsome thread you started but I did wish to comment on something you listed as one of your ground rules if you don't mind.


Please be respectful to the development team in your posts. I consider the DDO team to be some of my best friends and it is very difficult to see the merit and creative genius of a post if I'm personally frustrated with its author. I understand that many of you are passionate ( and/or angry ) about the game and want to have your voices heard. The best way to convey messages to us is in the form of crisp factual posts.

I have been around since BETA. I have watched Devs come and go and I have watched players come and go. I have seen, and posted, some stupid comments. I have also seen, and posted, some excellent feedback, comments, whatever. The anger, or zeal, that some of us show is not based upon a dislike for Devs in general. We've been told numerous times to post productively and yet even when that is done on a very important topic it seems to either be completely ignored or dealt with in a completely innapropriate manner. I have seen so many important topics ignored over the past couple of years all in the name of the Devs knowing what's best for the game. But here's the rub. Isn't what's best for the game making the players happy and making the game enjoyable for them?

If you don't believe me how about this. Someone merged a bunch of threads after Mod 5 and used my thread as the base. It was renamed Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback. In 33 pages and over 640 responses there wasn't a single interaction with a Dev or anyone from Turbine. Now... you guys merged the thread. People had some amazing ideas and thoughts and questions in that thread alone and no interaction? Why do you think we get angry when we deal with Devs from time to time?

To you, who I have some serious respect for and have taken a strong liking to as my favorite Dev I have to reply in kind:
Please be respectful to the player base in your decision making process. I consider the DDO players to be some of my best friends and it is very difficult to see the merit and creative genius of a decision if our concerns are disregarded to frequently and not addressed so we become personally frustrated with its developer. I understand that many of you Devs are passionate ( and/or invested ) in the game and want to have your content implemented. The best way to convey messages to us is in the form of crisp factual and consistant responses.

Try and remember Codog. You're not like the other Devs. While you may all be equals in the office it is not so on these boards. Because, unlike all the other Devs, you have made a consistant and sincere effort to communicate with us like we are intelligent adults. When you treat us this way we will, for the most part, act that way. Thanks again Codog for all of your efforts.

To the rest of the Dev team: I do not discount your efforts and do appreciate the work you do but you can all take some strong lessons from Codogs style of interaction with the player base. He's got the right idea. Because even if I don't agree with Codog at least he's talking with us about the issues consistantly and honestly.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-13-2007, 10:50 AM
What about Bunsen? No one shows Bunsen love.

/chest thump for Bunsen.


Good post btw. Especially the "lets make this raid loot thread such a mess no one will want to post in it anymore" point you
made.

Tolero
12-13-2007, 10:58 AM
I'll go ahead and toss out a quick comment here. A majority of my day is spent combing feed back in every place I can find it. It's a lot because you all are very passionate, and have many many things to talk about. If I had time to respond to every thread I read I would, but alas there's just not enough hours in the day. There are tons of times when I will bring a topic to a particular dev only to hear "I've been reading that thread but thanks!" so I know they're in here prowling too, and in much the same boat as I: so many threads, so little time. But we appreciate all our players dedication and desire to better the game.

For me, merging threads makes my life a nightmare too, but hunting down every topic spread from here to there is also difficult. So of late, I've been opting to simply do a close on smaller topics, and point them to larger more centralized ones to get everyone in the same place at the same time conversing, but still leave the integrity of the previous discussion there, instead of muddled amid one mass conglomerated thread. I'm hoping that technique works a little better for everyone ^^

Luthen
12-13-2007, 11:09 AM
I'll go ahead and toss out a quick comment here. A majority of my day is spent combing feed back in every place I can find it. It's a lot because you all are very passionate, and have many many things to talk about. If I had time to respond to every thread I read I would, but alas there's just not enough hours in the day. There are tons of times when I will bring a topic to a particular dev only to hear "I've been reading that thread but thanks!" so I know they're in here prowling too, and in much the same boat as I: so many threads, so little time. But we appreciate all our players dedication and desire to better the game.

For me, merging threads makes my life a nightmare too, but hunting down every topic spread from here to there is also difficult. So of late, I've been opting to simply do a close on smaller topics, and point them to larger more centralized ones to get everyone in the same place at the same time conversing, but still leave the integrity of the previous discussion there, instead of muddled amid one mass conglomerated thread. I'm hoping that technique works a little better for everyone ^^

Thanks for a reply. It still makes little sense to merge threads simply to observe them. If the topics are some important they need to be condensed and reviewed and people can come to that one place to discuss them it would then seem to make sense that it's been merged to make it easier for a particular Dev to access that thread and the comments in it to give some form of reply. Even so much as to say "I hear ya guys and Im reading but I just cant respond to all of it all the time" would at least tell us that it's really being seen instead of leaving it to our imagination.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 11:34 AM
I'll go ahead and toss out a quick comment here. A majority of my day is spent combing feed back in every place I can find it. It's a lot because you all are very passionate, and have many many things to talk about. If I had time to respond to every thread I read I would, but alas there's just not enough hours in the day. There are tons of times when I will bring a topic to a particular dev only to hear "I've been reading that thread but thanks!" so I know they're in here prowling too, and in much the same boat as I: so many threads, so little time. But we appreciate all our players dedication and desire to better the game.

For me, merging threads makes my life a nightmare too, but hunting down every topic spread from here to there is also difficult. So of late, I've been opting to simply do a close on smaller topics, and point them to larger more centralized ones to get everyone in the same place at the same time conversing, but still leave the integrity of the previous discussion there, instead of muddled amid one mass conglomerated thread. I'm hoping that technique works a little better for everyone ^^

You know your problem Tolero is that you have never played the game so you just don't understand it from our perspective! :mad:

Oh wait a minute, never mind... Great job :D:p

Tolero
12-13-2007, 11:52 AM
I've got you under my microscope studying the way you tick mwuhahahaha... I mean... assessing your feed back.

Luthen
12-13-2007, 11:56 AM
I've got you under my microscope studying the way you tick mwuhahahaha... I mean... assessing your feed back.

I don't tick. I whirrrrrrrrrrr.

Kire
12-13-2007, 11:59 AM
I've got you under my microscope studying the way you tick mwuhahahaha... I mean... assessing your feed back.

and i beatbox :D

Yaga_Nub
12-13-2007, 12:01 PM
Luthen,

I love this post.

But I do have one problem with it and that's the fact that you tell the other devs to follow Codog's lead.

I would love it if they did but you have to remember that Codog is doing things HIS way. I'm pretty sure that Turbine hasn't told him to be more interactive with us.

Each of the developers has their own style and I think we shouldn't try to shame them into being like Codog or anyone else on the forums.

Let's keep working with Codog and maybe the other devs will see a positive force for feedback and change.

Until let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they will communicate as they see fit either with direct postings or using T and Q to get their info out to the masses.

Luthen
12-13-2007, 12:09 PM
Luthen,

I love this post.

But I do have one problem with it and that's the fact that you tell the other devs to follow Codog's lead.

I would love it if they did but you have to remember that Codog is doing things HIS way. I'm pretty sure that Turbine hasn't told him to be more interactive with us.

Each of the developers has their own style and I think we shouldn't try to shame them into being like Codog or anyone else on the forums.

Let's keep working with Codog and maybe the other devs will see a positive force for feedback and change.

Until let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they will communicate as they see fit either with direct postings or using T and Q to get their info out to the masses.

I am not looking for a bunch of mindless automatons doing the same thing. But the example of Codog is that, IMHO, he has proven that open and productive communication between Devs and the players is possible. Why havent any others done this on a consistant basis yet? If they don't have more with similar drive as Codog then maby it's time to light a fire under some butts or talk to the personel department and see about looking into different hiring criteria.

Ringlord
12-13-2007, 12:09 PM
Luthen this is not a bad post and I see nothing offensive in it, not that you likely care if I approve :), but I thought I would post anyway.

I think there are several reason why the devs do not reply to certain threads and seem to let them go for a long time. First is that issues like the change to the raid loot and the drop rate I believe the reason for consolidating the threads down to one and labeling it the "Official" thread was so they could get enough data from enough players in one spot to make it easy to determine if there really was a problem or if it was working as intended. Now as we have seen from the threads started when the old raid loot system was initially put in the game and most people hated it they took the time to listen and then made a decision, but never talked about it until they were going to make a change.

Now I am not saying this is the best approach, but we have all seen how things the devs say get twisted around by players to say what they wanted to hear or see and not what was really said. That forces the devs to be overly cautious in what they say and when. I think the dev chat from last night proves they do listen to us or rather read our posts so it is safe to figure they have read the thread and are looking into what can and should be done including the ideas suggested by players, but that kind of change will likely not come about for another couple of months and will not be mentioned until 4 - 6 weeks before it happens.

Now as to people treating the devs with respect if they are treated that way in return there are still too many negative posts that verbally abuse the devs and attack them that have nothing to do with an issue that has been around for a while or are still made after a dev does respond. They are just plain and simple attacks disguised as complaints.

I think the devs have admitted several times recently that they have not been doing the best job of communicating with us as a group and some of them are down right bad at it individually. As individuals I think it is the same for them as it is for players, some want to post to the boards for us and some don't and would rather just do their work like players would rather just play. That is where Q and Tolero come in as it is their jobs to communicate for the devs as a group and specifically for those who don't want to post personally. Codog and other devs posting on their own are bonuses from them to us, but too many here treat it like that is their job when it is not.

Now I think I did prove dev communication has increased and seems to be getting better yet. Granted the numbers I got from the dev tracker had some gaps because of the thread purge from before, but they still had dev posts from that time and before and the numbers were consistent enough to make them fairly accurate. They do read the forums and especially threads that are on the front page for a while. They just don't respond to every one of them because they would not have enough time to do that and still make new content at even the current pace and because they don't need the added headache of responding to an issue until they have solid information that there is a problem and that they can fix it.

Yaga_Nub
12-13-2007, 12:21 PM
Thanks Ringlord, you pretty much summed up what I was talking about.

We need to view Codog's effort as a bonus not as a rule that HAS to be followed.

Razvan
12-13-2007, 12:37 PM
I have seen so many important topics ignored over the past couple of years all in the name of the Devs knowing what's best for the game. But here's the rub. Isn't what's best for the game making the players happy and making the game enjoyable for them?

If you don't believe me how about this. Someone merged a bunch of threads after Mod 5 and used my thread as the base. It was renamed Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback. In 33 pages and over 640 responses there wasn't a single interaction with a Dev or anyone from Turbine. Now... you guys merged the thread. People had some amazing ideas and thoughts and questions in that thread alone and no interaction? Why do you think we get angry when we deal with Devs from time to time?



THe fact that only 25% of the total number of players post on the forums can be easily verified by the devs, so let's go with that is true.

Now, when the raid loot changes occured there have been a bunch of negative feedback posts, yes...but all in all not enough to tell the devs that the changes were a mistake, so they ignored the fact that some people were not happy and went with most of the players are happy. How?...Well simple...if they (the devs) would have noticed a change in that 25% forum poster, say if that would have went to 50%, and if all of a sudden, out of that 50% of total player base half were posting that they don't like the new system, that would have meant that 75% of the total number of DDO player were either happy with the changes or didn't have a problem...so, no changes were warranted. Now, what they did was put all the threads into a single one, so that the boards were not full of "I don't like this" threads, and let those players discuss their issues there. They ignored it because they weren't the majority. Always remember the majority on the forums DOES NOT represent the majority of all DDO players. SO they went with "if people don't complain it means they are NOT UNHAPPY"...what's wrong with that....? Nothing! A few bruised egos, that's all...but everyone else is happily playing their favorite game!

And so am I!

And I agree, the fact that Codog is doing what he is doing is a bonus, it shoulnd't be a rule!

derja
12-13-2007, 02:40 PM
I am not looking for a bunch of mindless automatons doing the same thing. But the example of Codog is that, IMHO, he has proven that open and productive communication between Devs and the players is possible. Why havent any others done this on a consistant basis yet? If they don't have more with similar drive as Codog then maby it's time to light a fire under some butts or talk to the personel department and see about looking into different hiring criteria.

another thing you should think about is codog admits most of his time on these forums are his own not turbines hes doing it off the clock when he could be doing other things family eating sleeping oh god how nice sleep is oops sorry got of track lol anyways how would you like it if somone told you you need to start working for free and be more like codog kinda screwed up dont you think but again my 2cp