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View Full Version : Made some progress in Spell DC Bug!



Impaqt
12-12-2007, 10:00 PM
I can Now reproduce it!

Devs, Please verify that this is a Bug that needs to be Fixed.

Step 1:
Check your Spell DC On Your favorite Spell. On My cleric, my Destruction DC is 28 with my reaver Napkin Equipt.

When I switch to my Resistance cloak, 1t drops to 17,

I toggle my extend off and then on it jumps up to 27

I equipt my Napkin back, it drops down to 17

I toggle my Extend off and on and it jumps back up to 28

I equipt my Spectacles of Spirit sight, It drops back down to 17.

I toggle Quicken this time off and On, and bang. back to 28.

So it doesnt seem to be tied to any specific meta.... toggleing ANY meta seems to reset the DC back to where it should be.

In the PvP Pit, If I cast a Spell when it shows the low save, the save seems correct. After I cast, the DC Jumps back up on its own though.

When In a Quest though...... The Save stays low, and mobs make their save more than I care to admit. I cant believe they are just getting that lucky at the same time My DC displays 17.

I'd like other folks to test this out and take some notes.. Gonna do some explorer area testing now and will post my results.

ArkoHighStar
12-12-2007, 10:03 PM
In oticed something similiar to this butit wasn;t with toggling metamagic it was when I equipped a spell penetration item and then took it off

MrCow
12-12-2007, 10:10 PM
I'm still skeptical about the fact that this is more than a display bug because I found no evidence during my testing of this issue a week ago. However, if I get some time tomorrow or Friday I will do some testing on this issues.

Codog
12-12-2007, 10:44 PM
I can Now reproduce it!

Devs, Please verify that this is a Bug that needs to be Fixed.

Step 1:
Check your Spell DC On Your favorite Spell. On My cleric, my Destruction DC is 28 with my reaver Napkin Equipt.

When I switch to my Resistance cloak, 1t drops to 17,

I toggle my extend off and then on it jumps up to 27

I equipt my Napkin back, it drops down to 17

I toggle my Extend off and on and it jumps back up to 28

I equipt my Spectacles of Spirit sight, It drops back down to 17.

I toggle Quicken this time off and On, and bang. back to 28.

So it doesnt seem to be tied to any specific meta.... toggleing ANY meta seems to reset the DC back to where it should be.

In the PvP Pit, If I cast a Spell when it shows the low save, the save seems correct. After I cast, the DC Jumps back up on its own though.

When In a Quest though...... The Save stays low, and mobs make their save more than I care to admit. I cant believe they are just getting that lucky at the same time My DC displays 17.

I'd like other folks to test this out and take some notes.. Gonna do some explorer area testing now and will post my results.

I'll be looking into this. Thanks for the repro steps.

--Codog

Sensei
12-12-2007, 10:47 PM
I KNOW there have been instances where my spells should have been hitting at a better percentage then they were. This seems to make everything add up. Lets us know what you come across Codog.

Bladedge
12-12-2007, 10:53 PM
If there is a bug the spell DC lets hope we dont have to wait 1/2 a year (mod7) to get it fix, as it may be to late to fix before mod 6 is release.

Impaqt
12-12-2007, 11:03 PM
At least we know how to fix it if it is indeed an actual bug and not just a display bug.

Shima-ra
12-12-2007, 11:41 PM
Its a bug I've noticed when I was using Heightened and died. When I was raised all my spells were ineffective.
I noticed it because my spells would get saved against at an impossible ratio.
Its easly fixed yeah, but what makes this bug frustrating is that it is hard to notice, and you usually know its there because the battle is going wrong.

parvo
12-12-2007, 11:48 PM
I can Now reproduce it!

Devs, Please verify that this is a Bug that needs to be Fixed.

Step 1:
Check your Spell DC On Your favorite Spell. On My cleric, my Destruction DC is 28 with my reaver Napkin Equipt.

When I switch to my Resistance cloak, 1t drops to 17,

I toggle my extend off and then on it jumps up to 27

I equipt my Napkin back, it drops down to 17

I toggle my Extend off and on and it jumps back up to 28

I equipt my Spectacles of Spirit sight, It drops back down to 17.

I toggle Quicken this time off and On, and bang. back to 28.

So it doesnt seem to be tied to any specific meta.... toggleing ANY meta seems to reset the DC back to where it should be.

In the PvP Pit, If I cast a Spell when it shows the low save, the save seems correct. After I cast, the DC Jumps back up on its own though.

When In a Quest though...... The Save stays low, and mobs make their save more than I care to admit. I cant believe they are just getting that lucky at the same time My DC displays 17.

I'd like other folks to test this out and take some notes.. Gonna do some explorer area testing now and will post my results.

Nice one. You deserve a Candy Cane or something :)

TechNoFear
12-13-2007, 12:13 AM
So that's why my bard 12 (Chr 30+gtr spell pen) sometimes can hold anybody in PoP elite and other times can't seem get a hold to land.

Serpent
12-13-2007, 12:25 AM
I have had same bug. Reaver napkin equipped my destruct is DC 26. When I equip a necromancy item it immediately becomes a DC 17. Not sure if its actual or visualization. Haven't tried the metas on it though I will have to check that out.

Lavabeing
12-13-2007, 12:45 AM
To CODOG and everyone else,

I've been able to reproduce this for a while now. I've submitted a bug report a few times when it really ****ed me off. Most of the people I've played with have figured this out as well.

For me.. on my caster (Sorcerer).. after I change the status (on/off) of any of my metamagic feats, my spells' DC's are correct. However, as soon as I change equipment, use a clicky, swap the weapons I'm carrying, or anything that repositions items equiped on my character, my DC drops by exactly my character's Stat bonus (11 because of a 32 charisma).

My only thought is that this has been known for a long while. I'm really surprised that it has been this long without a fix.

I read in a Dev response earlier today something to the effect: Bug reports receive more attention if they are reported by a variety of players rather than many times by a single player.

I really, really, really wish there were some way for meticulous bug checkers to flag bugs as severe beyond believe.

I also get the feeling that the community is so laid back and casual that most either don't notice such bugs or don't bother reporting them.







I can Now reproduce it!

Devs, Please verify that this is a Bug that needs to be Fixed.

Step 1:
Check your Spell DC On Your favorite Spell. On My cleric, my Destruction DC is 28 with my reaver Napkin Equipt.

When I switch to my Resistance cloak, 1t drops to 17,

I toggle my extend off and then on it jumps up to 27

I equipt my Napkin back, it drops down to 17

I toggle my Extend off and on and it jumps back up to 28

I equipt my Spectacles of Spirit sight, It drops back down to 17.

I toggle Quicken this time off and On, and bang. back to 28.

So it doesnt seem to be tied to any specific meta.... toggleing ANY meta seems to reset the DC back to where it should be.

In the PvP Pit, If I cast a Spell when it shows the low save, the save seems correct. After I cast, the DC Jumps back up on its own though.

When In a Quest though...... The Save stays low, and mobs make their save more than I care to admit. I cant believe they are just getting that lucky at the same time My DC displays 17.

I'd like other folks to test this out and take some notes.. Gonna do some explorer area testing now and will post my results.

Lavabeing
12-13-2007, 12:49 AM
I've noticed this problem on both my cleric and sorc. Both have a reaver's napkin. The problem doesn't happen on my bard who doesn't have one. I don't have the time to check right now, but can someone see if the bug is somehow related to possesion of, or wearing of, the reaver's napkin??

ArkoHighStar
12-13-2007, 04:48 AM
I have had same bug. Reaver napkin equipped my destruct is DC 26. When I equip a necromancy item it immediately becomes a DC 17. Not sure if its actual or visualization. Haven't tried the metas on it though I will have to check that out.

my experience is the same when I switched to penetration from focus item it went back up

RemoJr
12-13-2007, 04:49 AM
i figured it was probably a display bug, but i sent in a bug report a week or 2 ago. basically the same thing happens to me when i equip my enchantment focus sceptor, It drops by 10.

MrCow
12-13-2007, 04:51 AM
When I tested a week or so ago with a plain enchantment bracer and a necromancy scepter I was unable to reproduce the DC drops. I do not have the Reaver Napkin though so I can't test to see if the DC issue is related to the spell focus to every spell type bonus. Hopefully we get some interesting test results though with a variety of items to help pinpoint the issue.

If anyone cares, my testing data can be found here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1451967&postcount=18). I plan to gather more either tonight or tomorrow if I get the time.

Nevthial
12-13-2007, 04:56 AM
I have noticed this when I equip different spell focus items and toggle heighten. The DC displayed will be lower , but , changes back to what it should be when I actually cast a spell. The displayed DC will be spell level + 10 , ignoring my bonuses. e.g. Phantasmal killer displays a DC 14 , then when I start casting spells it jumps back to a 29. I have only noticed it actually effect any saves a few times , so I usually just switch items ( spell focus items) to make it reset as a habit during questing now. A pain, but I can deal with it.

Lorichie
12-13-2007, 06:34 AM
My caster, begins quest with magi item, buffs etc, then swaps to greater spell pen item. Dc's on spells in hot bar display fine up until i swap to or from spell pen items/ combustion-lore items. I have noticed when this does happen and dc is visually lower on spell descriptor, all i do is just swing weapons couple of times and then mouse over spell on hotbar and dc is back to where it should be.

This is just what ive seen visually. I have in no way done as much testing on this as others in here have, as far as in combat, just offering what i have seen and done to others to try.

Rich

Mad_Bombardier
12-13-2007, 09:13 AM
So, I'm not just a lousy Wizard! :eek: :D Thanks Impaqt and thank you Codog for the immediate attention to the problem.

oronisi
12-13-2007, 09:19 AM
I can Now reproduce it!

Devs, Please verify that this is a Bug that needs to be Fixed.

Step 1:
Check your Spell DC On Your favorite Spell. On My cleric, my Destruction DC is 28 with my reaver Napkin Equipt.

When I switch to my Resistance cloak, 1t drops to 17,

I toggle my extend off and then on it jumps up to 27

I equipt my Napkin back, it drops down to 17

I toggle my Extend off and on and it jumps back up to 28

I equipt my Spectacles of Spirit sight, It drops back down to 17.

I toggle Quicken this time off and On, and bang. back to 28.

So it doesnt seem to be tied to any specific meta.... toggleing ANY meta seems to reset the DC back to where it should be.

In the PvP Pit, If I cast a Spell when it shows the low save, the save seems correct. After I cast, the DC Jumps back up on its own though.

When In a Quest though...... The Save stays low, and mobs make their save more than I care to admit. I cant believe they are just getting that lucky at the same time My DC displays 17.

I'd like other folks to test this out and take some notes.. Gonna do some explorer area testing now and will post my results.

I just have to say thanks and congratulations. Not many people care to isolate bugs and find reproducable steps. While it 'shouldnt' be the end-users job, it is near impossible for devs to do that part. So thanks for your effort, the bug should get fixed soon and because of you.

Solmage
12-13-2007, 10:00 AM
I've noticed this problem on both my cleric and sorc. Both have a reaver's napkin. The problem doesn't happen on my bard who doesn't have one. I don't have the time to check right now, but can someone see if the bug is somehow related to possesion of, or wearing of, the reaver's napkin??

It's not.

If I swap out my cha cloak for my rem curse clicky cloak, I get this same bug, and then wonder how the heck I just got saved against 10 times in a row when I have come to depend on my spells to work when I cast them. (DC31 finger of death, lvl 22 spell pen)

It appears that swapping ANY item which affects spell penetration OR DCs resets the DC down to it's base DC value, until a metamagic is invoked.

This is a critical bug and I hope that a hotfix will be strongly considered.

(Thankfully, it seems that swapping lore items does not cause this - but I have stopped using my spell focus/spell pen 1-handers and went with wearables, for now)

Bloodetter
12-13-2007, 10:44 AM
i noticed this awhile back, and filled out a bug report. currently i have a lvl 14 sorc necro speced. i'm also an avid PnP player. spell DC is calculated with this formula. 10+spell level+spell modifier (Cha for Sorc and Int for Wis.)

I noticed that my Ghoul's touch DC would change from 25 (i have school focused necro and a 34 Cha for a +12 modifier) with my spell pen 7 scepter, and when i had out my Dream Spitter to beat said humanoid to death it would drop to 11.

now by far this shouldn't be. Ghould touch is a lvl 2 spell so even if i had a ability of 10 and the modifier was 0 the spell DC would still be 10+2=12.

i've noticed this in combat too, like when a creatures friends noticed what is going on and run up to me and i don't have time to switch back to my spell pen scepter and try to ghoul's touch them with my Dream Spitter in hand.

GrayOldDruid
12-13-2007, 11:02 AM
I've noticed this problem on both my cleric and sorc. Both have a reaver's napkin. The problem doesn't happen on my bard who doesn't have one. I don't have the time to check right now, but can someone see if the bug is somehow related to possesion of, or wearing of, the reaver's napkin??

I posted a thread with "Item Question" as the label talking about my equiping some scepters and my spell DC going down... and come to think of it, it was by my Stat bonus. I was told that it was just a visual bug, but .... casting spells, the enemy makes a Lot of saves upon occasion (and almost none on others).
... oh, and I don't have a Reaver's Napkin.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-13-2007, 11:13 AM
Yikes, no wonder sometimes I seem to be useless and other times a crush the enemy. I thought it was just bad rolls, I'm glad you all pay more attention than I do to those dice...

Do'Urden
12-13-2007, 11:14 AM
Confirmed this happens to my clerics / casters as well. For example...the DC on my Command / Greater Command drops like a rock when I equip the Dreamsplitter (which is supposed to be a +2 to enchantment-based spell DC). No matter what I do with metamagics or actual casting...it stays there until I UN-equip the Dreamsplitter :/ My in-quest experience seems to agree with this being an actual bug as opposed to display-only.

Henrieta
12-13-2007, 11:18 AM
Yes the dc number changes visually when switching focus items on and off, but I havent found it to change during combat rolls. All you have to do is, as already has been mentioned, is swing your weapon after you swap the item to get that visual display to be correct. Not the most annoying bug to me now, but it was confusing for a bit in the beginning.

Impaqt
12-13-2007, 11:29 AM
Yes the dc number changes visually when switching focus items on and off, but I havent found it to change during combat rolls. All you have to do is, as already has been mentioned, is swing your weapon after you swap the item to get that visual display to be correct. Not the most annoying bug to me now, but it was confusing for a bit in the beginning.

How often do Caster swing their weapons? I'll check this whenthe server come back up.

ANd how do you set your log to display what the mobs are rolling for their saving throws?

Its certainly possible that this is indeed a display bug only. But my experience is that its unlikely. THats the way turbine dice are somethimes though.

Spookydodger
12-13-2007, 11:43 AM
I'll be looking into this. Thanks for the repro steps.

--Codog

This is how I *KNOW* that there is something REALLY screwed up in the bug reporting queue.

I reported this bug, with this exact sequence to reproduce it at least a month ago!

God, this makes me perturbed. Why bother reporting bugs with exact anything, if all you have to do is come here and post it?

Spookydodger
12-13-2007, 11:45 AM
I'm still skeptical about the fact that this is more than a display bug because I found no evidence during my testing of this issue a week ago. However, if I get some time tomorrow or Friday I will do some testing on this issues.

I'm reasonably sure this is only a display bug. I tested my spells ad-naseum with the DC appearing to be the base DC or the actual (should be) DC. There was no appreciable difference, even though the difference between a 17 DC dancing sphere and a 32 DC dancing sphere is HUGE.

Impaqt
12-13-2007, 11:55 AM
I'm reasonably sure this is only a display bug. I tested my spells ad-naseum with the DC appearing to be the base DC or the actual (should be) DC. There was no appreciable difference, even though the difference between a 17 DC dancing sphere and a 32 DC dancing sphere is HUGE.


17-32 may look like a huge difference, but when it comes down to it, it could be nothing. WHat Mobs did you test on? What was their Will save?

Tested this on teh DOomsphere with my Heal Spell....

4 Consecutive Saves when my DC showed 16.

1 save out of 4 when My dc showed 27.

and screwing around with this when facing the doomsphere isnt all that fun. Luckily, the group I was in last night decided they wanted the sheild piece chest so I have a lot of time running around....

MrCow
12-13-2007, 12:07 PM
Why bother reporting bugs with exact anything, if all you have to do is come here and post it?

I would imagine that bug reports are viewed by Quality Assurance and then sent along to developers once they can verify it with steps to reproduce it.

When a bug is posted on the forums it is might bypass the Quality Assurance step (and depending on the information in the thread is may have tackled all the necessary steps QA would have sent) and be seen by a developer. In the case of the overly devoted Codog and other developers they put forth extra effort to come here and see the bugs that players post. Some players act as good Quality Assurance agents in this way and help make DDO an overall better place.

Personally, I only post information regarding bugs on the forums when I am:

confused if it is a bug or if is intended behavior
gathering data for other mentioned bugs to show if something truly is a bug
is so obscure or comical that I post it in a humorous tone


Other things I find bugs on I don't post on the forum and let things take its course and I have seen the system work.

Epitome
12-13-2007, 01:49 PM
I'll be looking into this. Thanks for the repro steps.

--Codog

Any chance you could test dismissal? The DC is pretty sweet on the spell but it seems to not work 99% of the time in most quests. A buddy and me and talked about how out of place its lack of success is for what the DC should actually be.

Mad_Bombardier
12-13-2007, 02:13 PM
Any chance you could test dismissal? The DC is pretty sweet on the spell but it seems to not work 99% of the time in most quests. A buddy and me and talked about how out of place its lack of success is for what the DC should actually be.Dismissal works as intended. It has a modified spell DC that adds caster level (max +10) and subtracts target HD. So, in most cases with high HD targets, you have lower spell DC than other spells.

parvo
12-13-2007, 02:36 PM
I'm a total noob so I want to make sure I have this right. I'll use an example. If my level six Enchant specced bard equips a scepter that is supposed to make my spell land more, it will actually land less? And the fix is to toggle a metamagic feat or swing my sceptre? I'd like to put some numbers to this:

Bard is level six. Drow (hot female of course :)). Charisma 20, 24 with Eagles Splendor. Spell focus Enchantment. Greater Spell focus Enchantment. No metamagic feats. Spellsinger Enhancement.

Impaqt
12-13-2007, 03:02 PM
I'm a total noob so I want to make sure I have this right. I'll use an example. If my level six Enchant specced bard equips a scepter that is supposed to make my spell land more, it will actually land less? And the fix is to toggle a metamagic feat or swing my sceptre? I'd like to put some numbers to this:

Bard is level six. Drow (hot female of course :)). Charisma 20, 24 with Eagles Splendor. Spell focus Enchantment. Greater Spell focus Enchantment. No metamagic feats. Spellsinger Enhancement.

With a 24 CHR, your SPell DC will drop by 7 when you toggle your spell focus item.

Whether or its a serious issue or just a display bug is what we're trying to figure out right now.

Razvan
12-13-2007, 03:09 PM
DIdn't find this one to be more than a display bug really....and you don't need to swap any weapons it's enoguh to turn some metamagics on or off...it never affected the DC of my spells tho...

Impaqt
12-13-2007, 03:13 PM
DIdn't find this one to be more than a display bug really....and you don't need to swap any weapons it's enoguh to turn some metamagics on or off...it never affected the DC of my spells tho...

I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other person who didnt answer me....

Where is the setting so that I can see what mobs are rolling on thier saving throws?

Thats the ONLY way to confirm beyond a doubt that this is a dispaly bug. You cant count on the dice roll being average.

parvo
12-13-2007, 03:40 PM
DIdn't find this one to be more than a display bug really....and you don't need to swap any weapons it's enoguh to turn some metamagics on or off...it never affected the DC of my spells tho...

My bard doesn't have any metamagics. I have no idea if this is a real bug or display but I intend to do a little testing and report back.

I'm such a noob. Where do I see the DC of my spell displayed?

Arnya
12-13-2007, 03:43 PM
I have a similar bug with my 13sorc/1clr

I have Max + Emp and gauntlets of eternity.

When I log with metas on and gauntlets equipped my clw ranges from 16-20HP

If I toggle metas off and back on (both) I get 20-26HP clw

If I remove the gauntlets and re-equip I get 26-36HP clw and finally a crit chance (topped off at 80hp clw the other day).

Really annoying to have to get into a routine when logging in to make sure my stuff actually works...

parvo
12-13-2007, 03:45 PM
I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other person who didnt answer me....

Where is the setting so that I can see what mobs are rolling on thier saving throws?

Thats the ONLY way to confirm beyond a doubt that this is a dispaly bug. You cant count on the dice roll being average.

Actually Impaqt, there are some statistical means we can use that will give us the answer within some reasonable range. Typical wording might be: "With 95% confidence, we can predict the spell had a DC of X".

If you want, I can help you test this. It might be easier with two people. I'm thinking something along the lines of Hold Person on Kobolds, with a door blocker. The spell doesn't last long, and does no damage so it seems we could collect a lot of data pretty fast. Let me know if you want a hand.

maddong
12-13-2007, 07:45 PM
I have a similar bug with my 13sorc/1clr

I have Max + Emp and gauntlets of eternity.

When I log with metas on and gauntlets equipped my clw ranges from 16-20HP

If I toggle metas off and back on (both) I get 20-26HP clw

If I remove the gauntlets and re-equip I get 26-36HP clw and finally a crit chance (topped off at 80hp clw the other day).

Really annoying to have to get into a routine when logging in to make sure my stuff actually works...

Ouch. That would make me think it applies to damage spells too....

Valdieron
12-13-2007, 08:20 PM
I've noticed this problem on both my cleric and sorc. Both have a reaver's napkin. The problem doesn't happen on my bard who doesn't have one. I don't have the time to check right now, but can someone see if the bug is somehow related to possesion of, or wearing of, the reaver's napkin??

Has happened on my Wiz for some time when he equips / unequips Dreamspitter... and yes he is wearing a Napkin... so you might be onto something there. Always thought it was a display bug as his spells always seemed to land either way for the most part...

Mad_Bombardier
12-14-2007, 09:04 AM
I'm such a noob. Where do I see the DC of my spell displayed?Mouseover your spell. It will say "Save: 20 (Will)"