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galoor
12-11-2007, 09:07 AM
When I first heard that DnD was going online I cannot tell you how excited I was, lol, and that doesnt happen often at my age ^^.
2 years later and the only reason i play is because i have friends here, it became somewhat a letdown in the end.
The reason for this is not the quests, its the min-maxers, people calling for game balance, nerf this, improve that, make me uber etc...
There are problems with this format, magic was implemented completely out of synch with the original game (iam sorry but casters are supposed to be extremely powerfull but limited to only been able to cast a SMALL number of times, metamagic raises the spells casting level making it less desirable to max/emp every spell etc..) people concentrate too much on kill counts/how iam more UBER than you etc...(individual kill count should be removed in my opinion). I believe that the game should have stuck closer to DnD for character abilities, mobs health, AC ( i wont mention that AC should be kinda usefull even at higher levels) etc.... after all IT does work in DnD. This failure has basically alienated the fun builds that where the core of DnD and allowed flexability, in my opinion just about any combination of class should be possible, each having its strong and weak points but workable in a quest environment (bring back the elven cleric/wiz lol). A lot of people joined this game at the beggining because it was DnD online and expected a similar game to what they remember/are used to etc.. and over the last 2 years i have seen almost all of them quit because its not what the name says, the few that remain are here because of friends etc. The min/maxers (or what i call WoW players ^^ )have basically ruined the game, Turbine has pampered to these people to attract them, if they had not done this I believe they would have a much more successful game.

PCNONSENSE
12-11-2007, 09:11 AM
Amen Brother!

Oreg
12-11-2007, 09:16 AM
1. Don't come to the boards to read the complaints. Just Play.
2. I'll bet there are dozens of people who play on your server during the times you do that feel similarly. Find Them. Do quests with them. Make a guild with them. Whatever it takes. All you need is 3-4 people and you can do just about anything in this game within level reason.

xanvar
12-11-2007, 09:19 AM
The thing about DnD is you have to work with your DM even if the DM isn't doing that great of a job at times. You can offer suggestions and hope the game becomes more fun for you, if not you have a decision to make. If the majority of the players enjoy the game then you may want to consider finding anouther game. Or you can suck it up and keep playing. I know I find my self just shaking my head but I play because it is the best game out there for me. I can't believe we will be getting +15 on our 5th swing, that is opposite of DnD. The spell points work alot better in a real time game but it does tend to make casters even more powerful than they are in PnP DnD. Thats the nature of the beast, but I think some people are able to pull off some of those stranger builds and still do well at 95% of the content in the game. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying if you don't like it leave. I just wanted to point out that even in PnP DnD sometimes that is the only real option. Sadly this is the only DnD game that is online.

GrayOldDruid
12-11-2007, 09:28 AM
Heck, it was min/maxers that drove me to DDO from PnP actually.

When the GM we had allowed someone to play an Invisible Stalker as a Player Character, and one to be a Gestalt bladeweaver fighter with the Celestial template (and still keep full level).... and I was having to struggle to keep up with my Gestalted Beguiler/Druid ... lol...
It was just toooo much power-gaming.

Our team storming the castle was like the swat team taking over a kindergarden class.

Khyron
12-11-2007, 09:42 AM
I got the same problem but here's the real problem. It's encouraged at the top that's why the spat books have been the way they've been.

Andy Collins and the rest of the new breed of Top Level D&D Game Designers are a bunch of hardcore non-roleplaying power-gamers. None of those guys have any sense of game balance or roleplaying flavor. They were the guys back in the old days who didn't let the fact that there was a serious problem with psionics and game balance keep them from playing it.

Ringos
12-11-2007, 10:05 AM
I agree with the OP, but Oreg had a good solution. Seek out the people that DO want to play like you and it will probably be more fun. Don't read all of the posts on the boards...it can drag you down. I'm no uber run-all-the-time guy, but I min/max my stats just so I can hang with the PUGs. The other people are the best part about this game, as I have met many nice folks who I enjoy running with. Take care.

Bekki
12-11-2007, 10:31 AM
I agree with the OP, but Oreg had a good solution. Seek out the people that DO want to play like you and it will probably be more fun. Don't read all of the posts on the boards...it can drag you down. I'm no uber run-all-the-time guy, but I min/max my stats just so I can hang with the PUGs. The other people are the best part about this game, as I have met many nice folks who I enjoy running with. Take care.

Oreg is right, find those with a similar play style.
The Min/maxers I think miss the point.

Here are my thoughts on that.

1. The game is designed so that you need to work together.
The levels are designed for a 4-6 person party.
Technically if the dungeon is specced right, a 4 person
party can complete every adventure in the Game save for the Boss raids.


2. It is natural progression for the leadship over time to shift
from the fighters to the Magic Users.
Who do you want to follow in to Combat against the Dragon?
The Barbarian who will Charge right in, or the Paladin and Magic user
who will come up with the Tactics to win?
( This is in no way a slander to the barbs, let me make that clear.)
I am merely stating that it is thenatural way of things for the Macic Users to
get more "Uber" as they go up in levels. And the fighters, Rangers, Paladins
and Barbarian's, Etc. to fill more of a support role.
It doesn't mean that the Fighters Etc. are any less of a character,
it just means your job will change over time.

3. Weapons Stop a +5 FOR A REASON!
I just read a post the other day where someone
was asking for +6 or better weapons.

Weapons stop at +5 because when you add in all of the special abilities
they can get really powerful as it is now...
Were they raise it any further and it would border on "Monty Haul"

It is just a matter of finding friends with a similar play style,
I cannot go "Uber" because I don't have alot of time to play.
I have a wife and two kids.
I get online to play maybe 2-4 nights a Week if I am lucky.
I have yet to Cap a character.
I am out to have fun.
I play on Tharashk now Thelanis.
I would like to get 14 before Mod 6 if I can though.
But I a really in it for the fun.
Take it easy and have fun.

galoor
12-11-2007, 11:14 AM
1. Don't come to the boards to read the complaints. Just Play.
2. I'll bet there are dozens of people who play on your server during the times you do that feel similarly. Find Them. Do quests with them. Make a guild with them. Whatever it takes. All you need is 3-4 people and you can do just about anything in this game within level reason.

Oreg. thx for that reply, i would just like to mention a small fact: because of the difficulty been way above the original game (DC's/mob HP/etc..) it is impossible to function with a fun build, also i think you missunderstand me, i dont really mind the lack of roleplay etc.. what i mind the the only real resemblance to DnD is the name.

I can't believe we will be getting +15 on our 5th swing, that is opposite of DnD. The spell points work alot better in a real time game but it does tend to make casters even more powerful than they are in PnP DnD.

Xanver. I dont mind spell points and agree they do work better in a RT game, but why not have the amount at least comparable to DnD, enough to cast the same total amount of spells of the different levels.

Heck, it was min/maxers that drove me to DDO from PnP actually.
When the GM we had allowed someone to play an Invisible Stalker as a Player Character, and one to be a Gestalt bladeweaver fighter with the Celestial template (and still keep full level).... and I was having to struggle to keep up with my Gestalted Beguiler/Druid ... lol...
It was just toooo much power-gaming.
Our team storming the castle was like the swat team taking over a kindergarden class.

Lol Grayolddruid, sounds like your DM was getting bored or something.

I agree with the OP, but Oreg had a good solution. Seek out the people that DO want to play like you and it will probably be more fun. Don't read all of the posts on the boards...it can drag you down. I'm no uber run-all-the-time guy, but I min/max my stats just so I can hang with the PUGs. The other people are the best part about this game, as I have met many nice folks who I enjoy running with. Take care.

Thx Ringos, you really hit the nail on the head, you min/max to hang out with the pugs, thats my point, the mob/DC's are so out of wack with the original game that if you dont min/max you cant do the top end quests.

Thankyou for your replies.

tihocan
12-11-2007, 12:05 PM
Oreg. thx for that reply, i would just like to mention a small fact: because of the difficulty been way above the original game (DC's/mob HP/etc..) it is impossible to function with a fun build
That's not true. On normal difficulty quests usually do not require min/max builds with top gear.


I dont mind spell points and agree they do work better in a RT game, but why not have the amount at least comparable to DnD, enough to cast the same total amount of spells of the different levels.
You can't have the same number of spells as in DnD, because DDO has many more encounters than a typical DnD session. I think it would have been nice to split the SP pool to give a fixed proportion of SPs to each spell level, but I'm not sure if the added complexity would be worth it...


thats my point, the mob/DC's are so out of wack with the original game that if you dont min/max you cant do the top end quests.
Again, that may be true on elite, but not on normal.

galoor
12-11-2007, 12:21 PM
Tihocan. So your saying that i can play most builds as long as i dont do quests on elite.....kinda @$#@s people over dont you think, as someone who pays to play the game like everyone else, i dont really think thats an acceptable or reasonable response.

Borrigain
12-11-2007, 12:31 PM
/sigh

And I agree with you, but....

Welcome to the "new age" of instant gratification. Unfortunately, us old-school PnP players are not "increasing" in numbers, so as a business, Turbine has to cater to those "on the rise".

They want it all, they want it now, and they don't have to work for it.

I blame rap music. :D

Borr.

P.S. and Oreg nailed it. Find some old school players and ignore "teh leet uberz" nonsense. And by God, stay AWAY from the PvP pit. It will just frustrate you.

sigtrent
12-11-2007, 02:11 PM
BTW: I'm not trying to say you are wrong or whining here... far from it as you make some good points. But I think in some cases I can add some perspective to what you are saying and perhaps help you out.



Oreg. thx for that reply, i would just like to mention a small fact: because of the difficulty been way above the original game (DC's/mob HP/etc..) it is impossible to function with a fun build, also i think you missunderstand me, i dont really mind the lack of roleplay etc.. what i mind the the only real resemblance to DnD is the name.

You can make all kinds of fun builds. I suppose it depends on what you find fun, but all my characters are unusual and all are quite effective. I don't solo high end quests wtih them but in a typical party they do very well. Don't let the pressure of other folks being UBER make you think simply being Good isn't sufficient. Wierd builds take some game knowledge to make them work but there are countless differnt kinds of builds that work well in the game.


I can't believe we will be getting +15 on our 5th swing, that is opposite of DnD. The spell points work alot better in a real time game but it does tend to make casters even more powerful than they are in PnP DnD..

Ya. That's my biggest complaint about the changes made thus far. There is a logical reason for that (has to do with attack speed and animations etc..) but it distorts Attack vs AC in the game rather badly and requires inflated HP on monsters which has its own ripples etc... but honestly combat works out pretty similar to PnP in terms of what classes play what roles and what bonuses are usefull etc... I do play both quite regularly and DDO really does feel about right to me despite the inflated numbers.


Xanver. I dont mind spell points and agree they do work better in a RT game, but why not have the amount at least comparable to DnD, enough to cast the same total amount of spells of the different levels.

Actualy they are. until recently in fact characters over 12th level had less SP than needed to cast the same number of spels their PnP counterparts could. They started out with more casts but ended up wtih less. This has been corrected. If you actualy do the math most casters can only cast about 10% more spells than thier high level PnP counterparts. Inarguably spell points have a big versatility advantage but raw spell numbers are pretty close.


Lol Grayolddruid, sounds like your DM was getting bored or something..

That's the thing wtih PnP. Everyone plays it different. Some are crazy monty haul, some are hard core gritty scrabbling for treasure. It really depends on the DM and players. Any online game will get monty haul because you play way more of it than PnP so over time you jsut build up massive piles of treasure and you can trade it with others to optimize distribution. you really can't get around it unless you take out all the MMO mechanics.


Thx Ringos, you really hit the nail on the head, you min/max to hang out with the pugs, thats my point, the mob/DC's are so out of wack with the original game that if you dont min/max you cant do the top end quests..

That really isn't true. I've got 28pt characters galore. They are not min max (few have an 18 in any stat). They have wierd multi class choices. They don't have super uber gear (just a little uber since I've been playing since beta) and they do just fine. No one (other that possibly my wife) has ever complained about how effective they are and I've completed a wide range of quests. Teamwork and strategy make up for a lot in DDO. What really helps is to know the game well. Learn the rules, find out how to best use your abbilities, think about how the quest works and what the monsters do and you should be able to tackle anything. A lot of people make the mistake of just standing around and trying to fight everything like dungeons were a field of honor or something. Sometimes just trying to overpower an encounter is not the smart way to deal with it.

Arianrhod
12-11-2007, 02:15 PM
Tihocan. So your saying that i can play most builds as long as i dont do quests on elite.....kinda @$#@s people over dont you think, as someone who pays to play the game like everyone else, i dont really think thats an acceptable or reasonable response.

Well, what alternative would you suggest? Elite is supposed to be, well, elite. If it were doable with suboptimal builds with standard gear, it would bore the powergamers silly. Having different quest difficulties is at least an effort to provide something for every playstyle.

[edit for clarification - my "main" is an elf bard with a "wasted" 14 int, and no tomes/raid gear/anything else not easily available from the auction house - certainly not a "power' build. I do have trouble with her on same-level quests on elite, but can usually manage once they're a few levels below me, especially if I've done the quest often enough on lower difficulties to know what to expect. Knowledge is power in DDO :D ]

tihocan
12-12-2007, 12:24 PM
Tihocan. So your saying that i can play most builds as long as i dont do quests on elite.....kinda @$#@s people over dont you think, as someone who pays to play the game like everyone else, i dont really think thats an acceptable or reasonable response.
Why would you expect to be able to win in highest difficulty levels with a weak character? As Arianrhod said, if that was the case, then some players would be immensely bored with the lack of challenge in the game. The various difficulty levels are there so that the game can appeal to a broader audience.

Note that you don't even need to be able to do difficult stuff to get almost everything the game has to offer. Even 1750 favor is not really hard to get now (you can still do elite quests when you're much higher level than the quest, so it's not too hard even with a suboptimal build and average gear).

Have you tried to make a fun build, btw? I have 3 builds I would consider "fun" and atypical, and they all work very well in DDO.

transtemporal
12-12-2007, 07:28 PM
When I first heard that DnD was going online I cannot tell you how excited I was, lol, and that doesnt happen often at my age ^^.
2 years later and the only reason i play is because i have friends here, it became somewhat a letdown in the end.
The reason for this is not the quests, its the min-maxers, people calling for game balance, nerf this, improve that, make me uber etc...
There are problems with this format, magic was implemented completely out of synch with the original game (iam sorry but casters are supposed to be extremely powerfull but limited to only been able to cast a SMALL number of times, metamagic raises the spells casting level making it less desirable to max/emp every spell etc..) people concentrate too much on kill counts/how iam more UBER than you etc...(individual kill count should be removed in my opinion). I believe that the game should have stuck closer to DnD for character abilities, mobs health, AC ( i wont mention that AC should be kinda usefull even at higher levels) etc.... after all IT does work in DnD. This failure has basically alienated the fun builds that where the core of DnD and allowed flexability, in my opinion just about any combination of class should be possible, each having its strong and weak points but workable in a quest environment (bring back the elven cleric/wiz lol). A lot of people joined this game at the beggining because it was DnD online and expected a similar game to what they remember/are used to etc.. and over the last 2 years i have seen almost all of them quit because its not what the name says, the few that remain are here because of friends etc. The min/maxers (or what i call WoW players ^^ )have basically ruined the game, Turbine has pampered to these people to attract them, if they had not done this I believe they would have a much more successful game.

To expect DDO to be like a face-to-face PnP DnD game is inviting disappointment dude. This is often said but it bears repeating. The underlying engine of DDO is a 3D environment, pre-programmed quests and a rules engine, not the imaginations of the DM and players. Turbine have implemented DDO as best they can given the limitations of a computer game, with thought given to fluid, fun gameplay. If they'd implemented it faithfully to the PnP rules, each combat would take an hour and it would be really boring. For me at least its challenging, and thats what I require from a game.

PnP and DDO are very different gaming experiences and that isn't a bad thing (although maybe it should come with the disclaimer "Any resemblance to gaming systems alive or dead is purely coincedental" :) ). Having said that, DDO does seem to recreate the camaraderie of the gaming table, which is cool. If it didn't, you wouldn't still be playing! :)

Secondly, there are min-maxers and blowhards in the PnP game as well don't forget. Just do the same thing you'd do in a PnP game, don't play with them or ignore them. Anything else is just a waste of energy.

P.S. the cleric/wizard was just about the most gimped combo you could create in PnP. :D Cool concept but never worked because of the way the spell system worked. Its why WotC introduced the incredibly broken Mystic Theurge.

transtemporal
12-12-2007, 07:32 PM
I have a wife and two kids.
I get online to play maybe 2-4 nights a Week if I am lucky.
I have yet to Cap a character.
I am out to have fun.
I play on Tharashk now Thelanis.
I would like to get 14 before Mod 6 if I can though.
But I a really in it for the fun.
Take it easy and have fun.

I expected the bottom line to read "There are only 12 cylon models" :D