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Serpent
12-09-2007, 12:22 PM
This is a piece that was written by a friend of mine. He asked me to post it in the forums because he is unable to at this time. I do though agree with him on most points. I ask you all to read and think about what he says before blindly responding.

Although adherence to the letter and spirit of PnP D&D rules has some value to DDO, it's possible to go too far. Among experienced D&D 3.5e players and DMs it is well
known that the character classes (and thus the game as a whole) are not balanced at high character level. The exact changepoints vary depending on the style of campaign, but generally classes are quite balanced up to level 6-8, at which point pure spellcasters (wizard,cleric,druid) become increasingly powerful until by level 11-13 they are wholely dominating. From then until level 20 it get geometrically worse; and if the game proceeds to epic level 21+ it progresses even further and faster.

Roughly sorted by order of power, the classes are:
1. cleric, druid, wizard
4. sorcerer
5. bard, rogue (thanks to UMD)
6. fighter, ranger
8. barbarian
9. paladin
10. monk

As can be guessed from the list, the main source of imbalance is the fact that spellcasting is better than almost anything else you could do. Casters don't
just quantitatively increase their abilities at new levels (as all classes do), but they also enjoy a qualitative gain of whole new options whenever a new spell level is
unlocked.

Imbalance is unfun, because it means that frequently some members of the parties will have nothing to contribute to defeating the game's obstacles. Even if they're not
fully useless, it still isn't fun to know that they could be more helpful by switching to another character. Imbalance also means that game development resources are being
wasted on subsystems with limited relevance to actual play. (For example, 95% of DDO's high-level quests are completed without even one player making a ranged attack roll)

However, in PnP D&D the overall imbalance of the rules is not a fatal flaw. The DM is an adaptive human who can subtly alter the rules and encounters to reduce the dominance of certain classes. A computerized DM like the DDO servers lacks that ability, so it is important for the rules-as-written to be more intrinsically balanced. Of course, perfect balance is impossible, but that's no license to stop trying to improve.

Indeed, next year's 4th edition D&D rules will supposedly reduce the game's imbalance by both removing the most excessive spells and increasing the scope of abilities open
to noncasters. There is a chance that DDO will copy some of those ideas into it's own gameplay- but we shouldn't have to wait that long. For DDO to be a fun game in
the near term, balance must be improved now.


Summary of DDO Balance Problems
By far, the biggest balance problem in DDO is the superiority of full spellcasters to every other class. At high levels there are two distinct tiers of character power:
sorcerers, wizards, and clerics are almost always needed, while barbarians, bards, fighters, rangers, rogues, and paladins are rarely ever needed. Although the cleric
class is prehaps slightly overpowered, it is mainly a sideshow to the core problem, which is that wiz/sorc characters can defeat both mook and boss monsters far better
than melee warriors can.

The secondary problem is that barbarians are overpowered compared to other melee combatants. It is popularly believed that Critical Rage II is the cause of this, but
the real reason is not that barbarians are more damaging, but that they're also more survivable. With the easy availability of Heavy Fortification and the Heal spell, the
barb's DR and hitpoints are a better defense than the higher AC a fighter or paladin has.

Another problem is the superiority of dwarves compared to other races. This problem is not especially important, and could be mostly addressed by tweaking several
enhancements. Splitting up some of the better dwarf enhancements into multiple parts, while also adding a few new enhancements to the weaker races, and it's mostly solved.

There are other balance issues in DDO (like a weakness of rogues, and a weakness of ranged weapon combat), but those three are the most important. And the imbalance
between casters/non-casters is so great that other concerns really fade into the background. Probably the easiest way to start fixing the problem is to adjust
metamagic spellpoint costs so sorcerers can no longer go around using Maximize and Empower on all the damaging spells they cast. (Coincidently, that change would
also bring DDO closer to the letter of the D&D rules, which places a strict cap on total metamagics applied to one spell)


PS. There is speculation that the new quests in Module 6 will effectively weaken offensive casters by featuring mostly Evil Outsiders with SR, energy resistance, and high saves. I doubt that will make a huge difference- and if it does, it would be a mistake to rely on a change in enemy-type to balance the classes. That would leave a bunch of quests where noncasters have no fun, besides creating a new bunch of quests where casters have no fun either. It's a better game if most quests are places where a character of any class can feel helpful.

MysticTheurge
12-09-2007, 12:26 PM
and if it does, it would be a mistake to rely on a change in enemy-type to balance the classes.

I can agree with most of this, but I'm not sure I agree here. Sending specific enemies against your party is the best way to help adjust for imbalances.

On that topic, I think it's about time for them to restore Spell Resistance to it's D&D form. That would go a long way towards helping to balance casters with noncasters, as high SR enemies are supposed to be hard for casters to kill. In DDO, they're just not. Instead of FoD/Destructioning them, you just hit them with damage and their SR becomes moot.

Litz
12-09-2007, 12:30 PM
Casters may be the bomb on normal mobs, and hall trash, but want a mob to be difficult or impossible for a caster to take out? Give it a purple or red name.. Then its all up to melee & clerics..

Serpent
12-09-2007, 12:46 PM
Casters may be the bomb on normal mobs, and hall trash, but want a mob to be difficult or impossible for a caster to take out? Give it a purple or red name.. Then its all up to melee & clerics..

well in a manner true but you still have scorching ray, disintergrate, fireball, COC, ball lightning, etc.

redoubt
12-09-2007, 02:22 PM
well in a manner true but you still have scorching ray, disintergrate, fireball, COC, ball lightning, etc.

If they don't save those are great. When they save (and bosses often do) the damage become pitiful. Also, against bosses you are generally forced into using multiple metamagics, items and enhancements to deal any real damage. Once you turn on the metas the mana starts disappearing very rapidly. And if you don't have good melees on board you will eventually run out of mana.

Chelsa
12-09-2007, 02:49 PM
I disagree.

The game is flexible and supports multiple play styles. You make of them game what you want.

I see no unbalances that would require any sort of major re balancing, and it would be safe to assume, based on some of Codogs posts, that the devs are hard at work tweaking certain elements of the game.

Aspenor
12-09-2007, 02:50 PM
If they don't save those are great. When they save (and bosses often do) the damage become pitiful. Also, against bosses you are generally forced into using multiple metamagics, items and enhancements to deal any real damage. Once you turn on the metas the mana starts disappearing very rapidly. And if you don't have good melees on board you will eventually run out of mana.

You do?? :confused::confused:

CrazySamaritan
12-09-2007, 02:53 PM
It seems to me that a lot of the class ranks are reversed.

1) sorcerers
2) wizards, barbarians
3) clerics, bards, rogues
4) fighter
5) rangers, paladin

Currently, there exists a much better balance in DDO between spellcasters/non-casters than in PnP.

MysticTheurge
12-09-2007, 04:47 PM
Currently, there exists a much better balance in DDO between spellcasters/non-casters than in PnP.

Better, yes, but I wouldn't say it's ideal.

Kaldaka
12-09-2007, 07:15 PM
It seems to me that a lot of the class ranks are reversed.

1) sorcerers
2) wizards, barbarians
3) clerics, bards, rogues
4) fighter
5) rangers, paladin

Currently, there exists a much better balance in DDO between spellcasters/non-casters than in PnP.

It all depends on the quest. All gianthold quests give the ranger with GTWF/improved crit pierce and puncturing rapiers (dual weilding disrupters in Madstone) the edge over all other melee types. Put the same rangers against the dragons in the Tor or in the Reaver raid and the other melee types are better.

However, wizards and sorcs are better still. Scorching Ray and Firewall with metamagic feats on have NO saving throw and can do an unbelievable amount of damage when spamming/alternating between these 2 spells. Sorc has the edge due to increased mana pool and quicker spell refresh rates to continue to spam them faster and for a longer period of time.

I know of no other class that can solo Tapestry runs like the Wizzy/Sorc

Tharris
12-09-2007, 08:01 PM
IMO trying to get balance, this has lead to all classes being way to powerful, and as a result the Mobs also need to be up there in "powerfulness". I can do 100 pts of damage with one arrow, and yet this does very little to the HP's of what I am shooting at. My AC of 40 odd is not good enough to stop being hit.

We now need ridiculous stats , items, to be able to run through the dungeons etc.

I know people would complain if you start taking away their enhancements, items etc, but if we keep trying to "balance" the classes by making the "weaker" ones stronger, where will we end up?

I wish I knew how to achieve the aim of balance without breaking peoples builds they may have spent 2 years making and tweaking etc, but I can't offer any solutions, is it even worth trying??????

Serpent
12-10-2007, 02:43 AM
If they don't save those are great. When they save (and bosses often do) the damage become pitiful. Also, against bosses you are generally forced into using multiple metamagics, items and enhancements to deal any real damage. Once you turn on the metas the mana starts disappearing very rapidly. And if you don't have good melees on board you will eventually run out of mana.

Well a mob saving is the equivalent of a melee missing. Scorching ray has no save it just hurts. Firewall is ridiculous, save or no. I have yet to see a caster run out of sp before the titanic boss fight. Usually they get a shrine just before actually. On my server I often see lfm with one melee and 4 or 5 casters, it has become the norm.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 02:47 AM
Currently, there exists a much better balance in DDO between spellcasters/non-casters than in PnP.

No because unlike PnP, DDO does not have a DM to change and tweak the situation. In PnP every experienced DM will be able to make a situation that plays to a characters abilities. We do not have that in DDO, there fore other classes, though there adn doing things, do not actually have to do any thing. Look at Vol or GOP or VONs or Rayum or Reaver or POP or the list can keep going.

Hvymetal
12-10-2007, 03:00 AM
I disagree.

The game is flexible and supports multiple play styles. You make of them game what you want.

I see no unbalances that would require any sort of major re balancing, and it would be safe to assume, based on some of Codogs posts, that the devs are hard at work tweaking certain elements of the game.I would have to disagree, I see a regression from multilple play styles to cookie-cutter play styles which has been rapidly getting worse. To me this is a glaring warning that the imbalances are getting worse....

CrazySamaritan
12-10-2007, 03:29 AM
No because unlike PnP, DDO does not have a DM to change and tweak the situation. In PnP every experienced DM will be able to make a situation that plays to a characters abilities. We do not have that in DDO, there fore other classes, though there adn doing things, do not actually have to do any thing. Look at Vol or GOP or VONs or Rayum or Reaver or POP or the list can keep going.

Error: Invocation of Rule 0 neglects Rule .5 (just because the DM can change the rules, doesn't mean she should.)

Serpent
12-10-2007, 05:06 AM
Error: Invocation of Rule 0 neglects Rule .5 (just because the DM can change the rules, doesn't mean she should.)

Umm ok whatever. Notice I said experienced DMs. That implies He or she is capable of making a smart and worthwhile decision. There are always mistakes, and usually when a mistake happens he DM makes a change.

CDevil
12-10-2007, 05:43 AM
Although adherence to the letter and spirit of PnP D&D rules has some value to DDO, it's possible to go too far. Among experienced D&D 3.5e players and DMs it is wellknown that the character classes (and thus the game as a whole) are not balanced at high character level. The exact changepoints vary depending on the style of campaign, but generally classes are quite balanced up to level 6-8, at which point pure spellcasters (wizard,cleric,druid) become increasingly powerful until by level 11-13 they are wholely dominating. From then until level 20 it get geometrically worse; and if the game proceeds to epic level 21+ it progresses even further and faster.

True, to a point. I think caster power becomes more OBVIOUS at higher levels, but I'm not sure I entirely agree they are dominating.



Roughly sorted by order of power, the classes are:
1. cleric, druid, wizard
4. sorcerer
5. bard, rogue (thanks to UMD)
6. fighter, ranger
8. barbarian
9. paladin
10. monk


Again, more a matter of perspective. First, druids and monks shouldn't even be on the list because they aren't in the game yet. If you're basing this list off of PnP, you're ignoring some of the inherent weaknesses in caster classes and inherent strengths of combat classes. It's NOT what you've got, but how well you can use it.


As can be guessed from the list, the main source of imbalance is the fact that spellcasting is better than almost anything else you could do.

Not really. There are plenty of things out there with high HP, SR, and other nasty ways of making you feel pain. Again, spellcasting might be a more OBVIOUS display of power, but not the only one.


Casters don't just quantitatively increase their abilities at new levels (as all classes do), but they also enjoy a qualitative gain of whole new options whenever a new spell level is unlocked.

True. Then again, everybody gets SOMETHING as they go up in levels. The big difference from PnP is that you can keep casting the same high level spell as often as you want until you run out of power, rather than a set number of times based on memorizing spells. Other classes get new options in the form of new class abilities, which can be just as devastating - if used properly - as any spell.

Other universal benefits that everyone enjoy include never getting tired, not needing to eat or sleep, and not aging. These are all effects that can be harmful to a caster if they were implemented.



Imbalance is unfun, because it means that frequently some members of the parties will have nothing to contribute to defeating the game's obstacles. Even if they're not fully useless, it still isn't fun to know that they could be more helpful by switching to another character. Imbalance also means that game development resources are being wasted on subsystems with limited relevance to actual play. (For example, 95% of DDO's high-level quests are completed without even one player making a ranged attack roll)

Agreed that imbalance isn't fun, but that can be corrected in time, albeit with trial and error. Contributing can depend as much on equipment as abilities. I've played Rogues as backup medics using wands. I've played Wizzies who were toolboxes for repairing the party's Warforged meat shield (metal shield? bot shield? :p ). I've played Bards where I spent half an adventure shield blocking doors to let things roast in firewalls.

As for completing quests without making ranged attacks, isn't that pretty much a matter of choice? I've played with Rangers who thought nothing of "in your face" bow attacks when fighting.



However, in PnP D&D the overall imbalance of the rules is not a fatal flaw. The DM is an adaptive human who can subtly alter the rules and encounters to reduce the dominance of certain classes. A computerized DM like the DDO servers lacks that ability, so it is important for the rules-as-written to be more intrinsically balanced.

Simply not possible. A truly "balanced" adventure in DDO would mean a party would HAVE to consist of certain classes, or it would be impossible to complete.


Of course, perfect balance is impossible, but that's no license to stop trying to improve.

This is why some adventures are occasionally tweaked. Again with trial and error, players will find ways in an adventure to maximize their capability and minimize their risk, and the Devs adjust it to make it more challenging.




Indeed, next year's 4th edition D&D rules will supposedly reduce the game's imbalance by both removing the most excessive spells and increasing the scope of abilities open to noncasters. There is a chance that DDO will copy some of those ideas into it's own gameplay- but we shouldn't have to wait that long. For DDO to be a fun game in the near term, balance must be improved now.

Keep in mind, the Devs have limited resources to work with, and they are also trying to come up with new content for us. To say that balance needs to be improved "now" is inherently unfair, simply because there is no cut and dried definition of what would truly be "balanced".

Besides, I think Rogues have been shortchanged for a long time, and I STILL have fun playing them. :D



Summary of DDO Balance Problems
By far, the biggest balance problem in DDO is the superiority of full spellcasters to every other class. At high levels there are two distinct tiers of character power:
sorcerers, wizards, and clerics are almost always needed, while barbarians, bards, fighters, rangers, rogues, and paladins are rarely ever needed. Although the cleric class is prehaps slightly overpowered, it is mainly a sideshow to the core problem, which is that wiz/sorc characters can defeat both mook and boss monsters far better than melee warriors can.

I'll grant that clerics are always welcome, for obvious reasons. To say that sorcs and wizzies are almost always needed and the rest are rarely needed is simply not true. I've seen plenty of parties that wanted combat classes and took casters as an afterthought, if at all.

Saying that wiz and sorc defeat things FAR better is overstating things. They can be good at defeating mobs if they have some range, but so can a decent ranger. They might do some good damage close up (since there aren't any blowback rules for things like point blank fireballs), but so can a fighter. Boss monsters are a tossup. I haven't seen a high-level boss yet that a caster could take on their own (maybe that's just based on the people I wind up partying with).


The secondary problem is that barbarians are overpowered compared to other melee combatants. It is popularly believed that Critical Rage II is the cause of this, but the real reason is not that barbarians are more damaging, but that they're also more survivable. With the easy availability of Heavy Fortification and the Heal spell, the barb's DR and hitpoints are a better defense than the higher AC a fighter or paladin has.

This is oversimplifying. Defense alone wouldn't make a class overpowered. That's like saying fighters are overpowered because they get bonus feats, or that paladins are overpowered because they can lay on hands. Again, everybody gets something as they go along, and it's how you use it.


Another problem is the superiority of dwarves compared to other races. This problem is not especially important, and could be mostly addressed by tweaking several enhancements. Splitting up some of the better dwarf enhancements into multiple parts, while also adding a few new enhancements to the weaker races, and it's mostly solved.

Agreeable, but difficult. The problem then becomes in overcompensating and making ANOTHER race overly powerful. This will take time, but I'm sure it will eventually be solved.


There are other balance issues in DDO (like a weakness of rogues, and a weakness of ranged weapon combat), but those three are the most important. And the imbalance between casters/non-casters is so great that other concerns really fade into the background.

Only if this is your biggest issue, which it may not be for a lot of people. Rogue weakness is my personal "important" issue, and I'm sure others have different priorities in what they think need to be fixed. I don't fault you for having your own opinion, I'm merely pointing out that you're maybe overgeneralizing a bit.


There is speculation that the new quests in Module 6 will effectively weaken offensive casters by featuring mostly Evil Outsiders with SR, energy resistance, and high saves. I doubt that will make a huge difference- and if it does, it would be a mistake to rely on a change in enemy-type to balance the classes. That would leave a bunch of quests where noncasters have no fun, besides creating a new bunch of quests where casters have no fun either. It's a better game if most quests are places where a character of any class can feel helpful.

Changing ALL the quests around simply isn't feasible. You're talking about an undertaking that could easily take over a year, and that's if they devoted their time to nothing else. Some quests are simply geared more towards certain classes, and there's nothing wrong with that. Changing enemy types is a reasonable start to shake things up a bit, although I'm sure the Devs will come up with something better as time progresses.

For the quest issue, see above concerning "balanced" quests.

A well thought out argument, but IMHO, a tad biased.

Just my 2 coppers' worth. :)

Serpent
12-10-2007, 06:25 AM
A well thought out argument, but IMHO, a tad biased.


I appreciate your thoughtful response and I have no real disagreements with what you say except this. Any observation is biased. It is based upon your personal perspective, just as my post was biased from my friends perspective, your response is biased from your perspective.

The only thing I can offer to maybe change your mind is concerning the rogue. Rogues have found themselves to be left behind and most agree. A rogue is essentially a melee class in a fashion. Their melee requires them do things a little different but they are essentially melee. Now if we lessen the power of the meta magic system, maybe by limiting the amount of SP you can spend on one spell or perhaps limiting how many meta magics you can have at once, we would likely see a jump in the use and power of melee classes. This jump would include the rogue. Now any wise player can see the output of damage a rogue can deal, so their inherent damage is not the problem, maybe the player stigma of them as a trap monkey is.

Also that list was the power of PnP classes not the power of DDO classes. it was to give those that are unfamiliar with PnP a perspective. I contend that when a level 20 wizard is faced with a appropriate CR challenge they will fair better and persevere over any level 20 melee. This is based upon the numbers of the 3.5e and not on actual DM use. The DM can change most anything.

A truly balanced system can exist in DDO. Its called mob variance. If individual mobs differed. If some have fire protection, while other had heavy fort, while a third had destruction spell, the PCs would find balance very quickly in the combat arena.

And I still contend that most LFMs will request a caster before a melee. Watch teh LFM for a night, maybe it is different on your server.

But thank you for responding with thought and consideration.

Taojeff
12-10-2007, 07:00 AM
Wizards and Sorcerors are WAY WAY WAY better, then just about everything else in the game. Clerics & Bards secondly so.

For a couple reasons.

1. The critical system, Lore, Potency etc, system is vastly overpowered for spellcasting classes (Sor, Wiz, Clr, Brd). Direct Damage spells were never meant to do 500-1000+ in a second or two. This has led to monsters having way too many hitpoints... (way more then the average player... in D&D the monsters are suppose to be average and the players heroic, not the other way around)

2. Most quests can and will be cheesed. That is aggro is exploited and people still lay down firewalls, blade barriers through obstacles. Mobs sit in these damaging effects till they die or close to it. An example is the new pre-raid on the beholder side. People have one person go into the beholder room and get aggro bringing the beholder to the gate...person dies. Beholder then aggros on party and will stand in blade barriers that go through the magical gates. One person dies, the rest of party sits back and waits. No fuss, no challenge. Cheese on...

3. Take all the damn shrines out of the quests, and lock the quests so people cannot keep re-entering. Nobody cares about the XP when they are capped and have to wait months before they can level again. It is all about the loot. So castes just go to town and get more mana back, or a shrine outside. This is terrible game design. you are basically giving castes unlimited mana. You could also fix this by automatically draining mana from castes if they re-enter a quest.

4. The whole mana-system in general is overpowered. The spell per level per day system of PnP is much more balanced. It works well in just about every other D&D computer game. Too bad Turbine had to go off on their own and try something new, instead of working with something proven.

Deragoth
12-10-2007, 07:41 AM
I wasn't aware that balance was a main concern of DnD... The high level caster has ALWAYS been overpowered, hasn't it? Honestly, I'm not sure reinventing the wheel so that people who only play fighters can feel better about their characters in DDO is a good idea.

Besides, a well built character of any class can and will be an asset to just about any group.

gpk
12-10-2007, 07:49 AM
Wizards and Sorcerors are WAY WAY WAY better, then just about everything else in the game. Clerics & Bards secondly so.

For a couple reasons.

1. The critical system, Lore, Potency etc, system is vastly overpowered for spellcasting classes (Sor, Wiz, Clr, Brd). Direct Damage spells were never meant to do 500-1000+ in a second or two. This has led to monsters having way too many hitpoints... (way more then the average player... in D&D the monsters are suppose to be average and the players heroic, not the other way around)


I would argue that the Mod5 Metamagicks just turned everythign upside-down. Primary casters were already stronger than other classes in mod4, mod5 just doubled the gap. I don't recall any players complaining their primary casters were underpowered,especially after the SP boost after Mod4 release.
The very powerful spell crits were just amplified because it's way more efficient in most cases to leave Maximize and/or empower on ALL the time. It can only get worse with higher level spells are new items.

Anyone who doesn't see that that the Primary Casters got a HUGE boost in power in Mod5 is woefully misinformed or being dishonest, I'm sorry to say.

EinarMal
12-10-2007, 07:52 AM
I would like to mention a couple of things related to this.

1. I hope that if they do re-balance things to reduce caster power they consider Bards and DO NOT just raise mob saves/SR to ever greater levels. This will make any offensive CC casting from Bards practically worthless as they cannot get DC's up to par with wizards/sorcs.

2. I think something needs to be done about firewall, that spell takes a lot of the fun out of the game it is a little too good right now (plus it is boring to just use the same spell over and over again to get through most everything)

I do not think you should turn casters into buff bots, that is not fun either. They should be able to kill things more quickly but are supposed to be limited in their ability to sustain it.

A couple of simple solutions...
1. Do not allow maximize and empower to toggle at the same time
2. Maybe get rid of some of the crit enhancements

I actually hope they do not greatly reduce spell points, it is no fun having to run along and do nothing for most of the quest so that you can save your spell points for one or two fights. It is more fun being able to cast throughout at reasonable levels.

At this point Turbine should be concerned with one and only one thing. How can I make the game fun FOR EVERY CLASS in most every dungeon. We need to keep every player that we can, including those who just want to play a fighter and not a caster.

You do not want those people quiting the game because their beloved fighter can't do anything in the upper level dungeons without 5 casters to carry him through it. That is why the game must be more balanced compared to PnP, people do not want to be a 6th wheel on every quest.

MysticTheurge
12-10-2007, 07:53 AM
I wasn't aware that balance was a main concern of DnD...

That's kind of the point of this thread isn't it?

gpk
12-10-2007, 08:02 AM
I wasn't aware that balance was a main concern of DnD... The high level caster has ALWAYS been overpowered, hasn't it? Honestly, I'm not sure reinventing the wheel so that people who only play fighters can feel better about their characters in DDO is a good idea.

Besides, a well built character of any class can and will be an asset to just about any group.

Well this isn't DnD, this is DDO. It is an online game and as such there needs to be a reasonable facsimilie of balance. There is also no reason to port DnD's mistakes either to DDO if you can spot them.
That balance has gone out the window as of late, it's not a question about making ppl feel "better about themselves".
Casters were already the stronger classes in Mod4, how does one justify the Mod5 metamagic changes? I haven't heard any primary casters come out and give ANY kind of justification or meaningful logical argument for the changes.

P.S. If you're going to use DnD (PnP) as a basis for an argument you'll also wanna mention that because the metamagics boost spell to a higher slot, there are just things you can't do. The "higher" SP cost is a poor substitute to DnD's dissalowing "illegal" metamagics applied to spells. Then there are spell crits, Superior potency items, enhancements, actually rolling 1d6 instead of 1d3+3 etc etc.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 08:10 AM
I wasn't aware that balance was a main concern of DnD... The high level caster has ALWAYS been overpowered, hasn't it?

Well actually it is. You might have noticed that PnP is going through another edition, largely because of the class unbalance in 3.5e. Also this is why this thread is here and if you don't see unbalance in DDO you aren't playing enough.

Deragoth
12-10-2007, 08:28 AM
That's kind of the point of this thread isn't it?

You should read the whole post, Mystic. It wasn't even very long... sheesh.


Well actually it is. You might have noticed that PnP is going through another edition, largely because of the class unbalance in 3.5e. Also this is why this thread is here and if you don't see unbalance in DDO you aren't playing enough.

I'm playing plenty. My point is, there has always been unbalance. Why should casters take a hit?

MysticTheurge
12-10-2007, 08:49 AM
You should read the whole post, Mystic. It wasn't even very long... sheesh.

I did read the whole post. Why do people assume that if you only quote part of a post that's all you read?

My point was that this thread is all about how D&D is not balanced but DDO should strive to be more balanced than D&D is.

As gpk and Serpent have additionally pointed out, yes high-level casters are powerful in D&D, but a) not as powerful as they are in DDO in some ways and b) that's potentially changing in the major rules revision D&D is going through right now.

But the exact details of D&D aside, DDO has to be more balanced than D&D is and there's one simple reason. DDO is not you and 3-5 of your friends sitting around a table all hanging out and having fun, where it doesn't really matter if one of you pwnzes a bit more than the others. DDO is thousands of people are playing together at the same time, all "competing" for spaces in groups. If class A is significantly more powerful than class B then you have a problem, because people won't want to take any Bs when they can have a party full of As.

Thus, we have a thread whose point is that D&D may not be balanced, but DDO should be, or at least it should try to be.

Raithe
12-10-2007, 08:58 AM
Well actually it is. You might have noticed that PnP is going through another edition, largely because of the class unbalance in 3.5e. Also this is why this thread is here and if you don't see unbalance in DDO you aren't playing enough.

Well, actually it's not. When are people going to learn that MMORPGs are about roleplaying? The object of the game is not building the most powerful character, as if that wasn't a completely subjective analysis anyway. If we all based our opinions of character power on the ability to sneak rather than to kill, we would all find rogues, rangers, and bards to be grossly overpowered, wouldn't we?

I've said it before I'll say it again. There is no trick to building anything uber. Back in the day it was simply a matter of rolling dice (or hitting "reroll" on the computer screen) until you came up with a character with stats above 14 all the way around. In DDO, it's simply a matter of picking a particular race and class, after unlocking Drow and 32-pt builds, then grinding away for loot. If you play these games long enough, however, you eventually learn that the most "powerful" (highest stat) characters are not usually the most fun. You start looking for the low stats you want as well as the high. The game of D&D (and therefore DDO) is as much about playing a character's weaknesses as it is playing their strengths.

Every class needs something to be good at, which is why I've been so critical of the changes to trapsmithing DCs that have occurred. Rogues need to be good at several roguish actions, and the screwed up DCs actually make them less good at what they do, not more specialized. Other than that, "balance" can take a flying leap out the window. It has nothing to do with the reasons I play the game.

Mercules
12-10-2007, 09:05 AM
Well actually it is. You might have noticed that PnP is going through another edition, largely because of the class unbalance in 3.5e. Also this is why this thread is here and if you don't see unbalance in DDO you aren't playing enough.

You need to add in the caveat of, "In high level quests with capped characters." Some of the things you mentioned are because people cap out their caster and then no longer care about SPs. They recall on a whim. SP management becomes sloppy because they can easily get them back. Why not turn on all your Meta-magics, you can just recall if you run out before the shrine?

The other issue is the WAY the meta-magic system works. If Disintegrate is in your highest spell slot, you should not be able to use ANY meta-magic feat on it. You shouldn't be able to Empower a Fireball until you unlock level 5 spells. What they SHOULD do for meta -magics is leave the costs the same but have you decide, at the time you set them up, what meta-magics will be applying to what spells and then force you to take them at the adjusted level. That means a Maximized Firewall is a level 7 spell. Empowered a level 6 spell. That is, roughly, how those meta-magic feats are supposed to work.

I'm not sure how to effect that system for Sorcerers and Bards though. What they are supposed to be able to do is to cast the spell MUCH slower when they apply a meta-magic feat to it. They are still bound by the limit of spell level, meaning they can't cast an Empowered MM until they are level 6 where they get there first level 3 spell. Then again, because of the change to spells maybe this should simply be the way it is done across the board. You can use any meta-magic on a spell ONCE you could legally cast a spell x levels higher. X is what the meta-magic would add in spells levels according to D&D PnP.

The second thing that could be causing a bit of overpowering is the way the spells work. Everyone agrees the AI being dim enough to stand in the Firewall makes that spell more effective than it would be otherwise.

Rays are similar. No touch attack means that if you don't have a fast moving or bouncy mob Searing Light basically ALWAYS does it's damage. It was not given its stats with that assumption. PnP casters who wish to use ray spells invest in Dex so they can actually hit with them. Does anyone care to argue that Searing Light is not overpowered when the mobs use it against us? It is the same when we use it against them. Scorching Ray is similar, but there are a lot of mobs that have immunity to fire. There is NO defense against Searing Light.

That is why magic is powerful. It has never been implemented correctly in DDO either being underpowered, or overpowered and people "miss use" it. The practice of recalling has messed up the balance at level cap. Many things need to be implimented in a more PnP manner. Even the spell point system in PnP doesn't allow the meta-magic feat fiasco DDO allows. :)

Ringlord
12-10-2007, 09:06 AM
I think we all know the base of any balance problem in DDO compared to pnp among the classes comes down to the fact that the always going to be limited AI that controls the mobs in DDO requires the devs to give them rather inflated HPs compared to their pnp counterparts. To offset this advantage the devs had to increase the damage we do in melee by messing with the BAB progression during combat and by giving casters a way to increase the damage their spells do.

Now if DDO had been released with the full 20 levels it was supposed to have we would very likely not be having this discussion right now, but I don't see any imbalance issues going away or staying fixed until the game gets to the top level spells being added to the game. The devs can try to adjust for any current imbalances, but future ones resulting from the level cap increase in mod6 and the next level cap increase that will add the final spell level for casters will have to wait until after they are in the game and have been tested under actual play conditions.

If the devs can tweak the AI to the point where mobs don't stand in AOE spells dieing and they don't get locked in on one tactic no matter that it does not work and just lines them up to be killed. Basically if they keep track of the player's tactics and keep changing the mob AI to compensate for those tactics they could make them smart and challenging enough for the devs to put the mobs HP back to pnp levels and then make the appropriate adjustments to the spell damage and melee damage to also

MysticTheurge
12-10-2007, 09:11 AM
I think we all know the base of any balance problem in DDO compared to pnp among the classes comes down to the fact that ...

I think that misses the point of this thread.

It's not just that the balance in DDO is different than the balance in D&D. It's that these imbalances exist in D&D.

Even without the things people are listing that give spellcasters such advantages in DDO (AI, metamagaic, spell points, no touch attacks), they're the most powerful classes in D&D. Even doing a strict interpretation of the rules as they apply to DDO wouldn't solve all the problems, because casters would still be more powerful than everyone else.

CrazySamaritan
12-10-2007, 09:15 AM
Umm ok whatever. Notice I said experienced DMs. That implies He or she is capable of making a smart and worthwhile decision. There are always mistakes, and usually when a mistake happens he DM makes a change.

And rule zero says that an experianced DM does not make PnP more balanced.



I'm not saying that DDO is balanced enough yet, just that it is balanced better than PnP.

GrayOldDruid
12-10-2007, 09:17 AM
I haven't heard any primary casters come out and give ANY kind of justification or meaningful logical argument for the changes.

* Carlos Mencia says "Duh-ta-duh" *

Casters DIE from one or two good hits from most mobs. The game IS balanced, whether you want to see that or not. (lvl 14 MAY not be entirely balanced, neither is lvl 1 or 5, but the game as a whole is)

Casters are pitiful at low levels, remain squishy for eternity, but wind up getting a power surge at later levels and become powerful in the stopping/killing ability (but still squishy). Still spend 60% of the time as support for the melees. "Stoneskin, plz" "Throw up a firewall." "Haste!"

Melees are Uber at low AND mid levels, continue to steadily progress in BOTH killing ability and survivability. Are THE go-to classes for 80% of all content.
Melees just whine because that squishy caster they had to protect for so long is eclipsing their DPS.

Rogues are useful, but largely overlooked because morons play 'toons' instead of characters and Melees don't mind quaffing a healing pot after zerging through a deadly trap, leaving the rogue behind to disarm it for the casters.

Rangers are rarely given opportunity to shine and ranged combat is still far behind, but useful in some instances.

Every class and combat style has it's benefits and drawbacks. THAT is balance. You can't be UBER all the time. You can not excel at EVERYTHING.

Casters can do one-shot kills at high levels because if they don't they are dead. Caster getting aggro = death. Melee getting aggro = fun.
Melee getting hit a few times = top off health after fight. Caster getting hit a few times = Death, xp-debt, rez.

Group makeup is mostly one or two casters, three tanks and a cleric. Second caster or third tank can be replaced upon rare occasions with a ranged combatant or a Rogue (or often a combo).

DDO is a MMORPG, not a MMOFPS, not a MMOSSG nor a MMOSim

Deragoth
12-10-2007, 09:26 AM
I did read the whole post. Why do people assume that if you only quote part of a post that's all you read?

My point was that this thread is all about how D&D is not balanced but DDO should strive to be more balanced than D&D is...
I assumed you didn't read it because your one line response missed the point of my post ;)... which is balance doesn't really matter that much in the game's current state. A well built character is valuable to any party. Who the heck cares who "pwnz" the most (another reason the kill counter should disappear). If you do your job, and that job can be highly varied, then you're valuable. End of story. Now if you min-max in the wrong direction and pigeon-hole your character, then ya, time to re-roll. Sorry for your lack of planning (abbot deaths anyone?).

I'm all for enhancing the abilities of the fighter/pally/rogue/ranger/barb classes, but swinging the nerf bat just upsets players. Why does everyone do this? A lack of balance is what makes D&D/DDO enjoyable, otherwise I'd go play that cookie-cutter-tastic, whiny-butt mmo, WoW.

MysticTheurge
12-10-2007, 09:31 AM
Who the heck cares who "pwnz" the most (another reason the kill counter should disappear).

Maybe not you. Maybe not me. But it would be naive to think it doesn't affect the game.

EinarMal
12-10-2007, 09:34 AM
A lack of balance is what makes D&D/DDO enjoyable

This is a really funny quote....you realize that *most* people would disagree that this makes the game more fun? I cannot believe you would think very many players at all would agree with this as being *fun* in any way.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 09:46 AM
My point is, there has always been unbalance. Why should casters take a hit?

Well, they should take a hit because they got an unwarranted and unneeded boost in the last mod. They were doing fine before that imo and in others opinions. I know of many sorcs with at least 1600 sp. That breaks down to approx. 20 maximized and improved firewalls that will deal on average around 300-600 damage to anything that passes through them (combustion and potency item taken into consideration). For a fighter to do the same amount of damage to most every mob outside of fire elementals and shadows in Vol, He would have to spend a lot of time swinging and open himself up to a large amount of damage. And thats just firewall, same can work for most any spell.

Thats why casters could use some rebalancing, such as decreasing the amount of meta magics applied or making them cost more again.

Asirin
12-10-2007, 09:47 AM
This is a piece that was written by a friend of mine. He asked me to post it in the forums because he is unable to at this time. I do though agree with him on most points. I ask you all to read and think about what he says before blindly responding.

Although adherence to the letter and spirit of PnP D&D rules has some value to DDO, it's possible to go too far. Among experienced D&D 3.5e players and DMs it is well
known that the character classes (and thus the game as a whole) are not balanced at high character level. The exact changepoints vary depending on the style of campaign, but generally classes are quite balanced up to level 6-8, at which point pure spellcasters (wizard,cleric,druid) become increasingly powerful until by level 11-13 they are wholely dominating. From then until level 20 it get geometrically worse; and if the game proceeds to epic level 21+ it progresses even further and faster.

Roughly sorted by order of power, the classes are:
1. cleric, druid, wizard
4. sorcerer
5. bard, rogue (thanks to UMD)
6. fighter, ranger
8. barbarian
9. paladin
10. monk

As can be guessed from the list, the main source of imbalance is the fact that spellcasting is better than almost anything else you could do. Casters don't
just quantitatively increase their abilities at new levels (as all classes do), but they also enjoy a qualitative gain of whole new options whenever a new spell level is
unlocked.

Imbalance is unfun, because it means that frequently some members of the parties will have nothing to contribute to defeating the game's obstacles. Even if they're not
fully useless, it still isn't fun to know that they could be more helpful by switching to another character. Imbalance also means that game development resources are being
wasted on subsystems with limited relevance to actual play. (For example, 95% of DDO's high-level quests are completed without even one player making a ranged attack roll)

However, in PnP D&D the overall imbalance of the rules is not a fatal flaw. The DM is an adaptive human who can subtly alter the rules and encounters to reduce the dominance of certain classes. A computerized DM like the DDO servers lacks that ability, so it is important for the rules-as-written to be more intrinsically balanced. Of course, perfect balance is impossible, but that's no license to stop trying to improve.

Indeed, next year's 4th edition D&D rules will supposedly reduce the game's imbalance by both removing the most excessive spells and increasing the scope of abilities open
to noncasters. There is a chance that DDO will copy some of those ideas into it's own gameplay- but we shouldn't have to wait that long. For DDO to be a fun game in
the near term, balance must be improved now.


Summary of DDO Balance Problems
By far, the biggest balance problem in DDO is the superiority of full spellcasters to every other class. At high levels there are two distinct tiers of character power:
sorcerers, wizards, and clerics are almost always needed, while barbarians, bards, fighters, rangers, rogues, and paladins are rarely ever needed. Although the cleric
class is prehaps slightly overpowered, it is mainly a sideshow to the core problem, which is that wiz/sorc characters can defeat both mook and boss monsters far better
than melee warriors can.

The secondary problem is that barbarians are overpowered compared to other melee combatants. It is popularly believed that Critical Rage II is the cause of this, but
the real reason is not that barbarians are more damaging, but that they're also more survivable. With the easy availability of Heavy Fortification and the Heal spell, the
barb's DR and hitpoints are a better defense than the higher AC a fighter or paladin has.

Another problem is the superiority of dwarves compared to other races. This problem is not especially important, and could be mostly addressed by tweaking several
enhancements. Splitting up some of the better dwarf enhancements into multiple parts, while also adding a few new enhancements to the weaker races, and it's mostly solved.

There are other balance issues in DDO (like a weakness of rogues, and a weakness of ranged weapon combat), but those three are the most important. And the imbalance
between casters/non-casters is so great that other concerns really fade into the background. Probably the easiest way to start fixing the problem is to adjust
metamagic spellpoint costs so sorcerers can no longer go around using Maximize and Empower on all the damaging spells they cast. (Coincidently, that change would
also bring DDO closer to the letter of the D&D rules, which places a strict cap on total metamagics applied to one spell)


PS. There is speculation that the new quests in Module 6 will effectively weaken offensive casters by featuring mostly Evil Outsiders with SR, energy resistance, and high saves. I doubt that will make a huge difference- and if it does, it would be a mistake to rely on a change in enemy-type to balance the classes. That would leave a bunch of quests where noncasters have no fun, besides creating a new bunch of quests where casters have no fun either. It's a better game if most quests are places where a character of any class can feel helpful.

Yer doggone right high level mages are overpowered .....as well they should be .....They are after all HIGH LEVEL charachters who could strike down mountains with a a single word.Wizards and sorcerors on Pen and Paper are exactly the same as in this game...problem solvers.Terribly feared and misunderstood by all who have never played one..as well they should be :)

gpk
12-10-2007, 09:51 AM
* Carlos Mencia says "Duh-ta-duh" *

Casters DIE from one or two good hits from most mobs. The game IS balanced, whether you want to see that or not. (lvl 14 MAY not be entirely balanced, neither is lvl 1 or 5, but the game as a whole is)
Casters are pitiful at low levels, remain squishy for eternity, but wind up getting a power surge at later levels and become powerful in the stopping/killing ability (but still squishy).

well let's see, casters have same or higher con and same or more HP than many melee classes in DDO, no casters invests in Dex really (no reason to). Blur, Displace (stoneskin later), 100% fortification, casting while running and jumping around = not getting hit. Dead Mobs for next to zero risk to caster.

Clearly we don't play the same game or you just play with really mediocre casters.



Still spend 60% of the time as support for the melees. "Stoneskin, plz" "Throw up a firewall." "Haste!"

60%? That's the number you wanna go with? Throwing up a firewall is Melee support? LOL



Casters can do one-shot kills at high levels because if they don't they are dead. Caster getting aggro = death. Melee getting aggro = fun.

Caster getting aggro = Hop back dsiplaced w jump and stoneskin avoid all mobs and re-cast spell. Got a firewall ? Hit a DP clicky and block with a tower shield till all mobs are dead.



Melee getting hit a few times = top off health after fight. Caster getting hit a few times = Death, xp-debt, rez.

Again idk which casters you play with, but DDO casters have LOTS of HP and 100% fortification and stoneskin. Melees can have twice the health and they would still be far behind; they get hit a helluva lot more than casters with all the aggro in the world.



Group makeup is mostly one or two casters, three tanks and a cleric. Second caster or third tank can be replaced upon rare occasions with a ranged combatant or a Rogue (or often a combo).


How many Mod5 groups wouldn't be better off with 4/6 players being a Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer? A rogue is only needed to get the optional box in Temple of Vol, and maybe a Barbarian is good to distract a Doomsphere for a while.



DDO is a MMORPG, not a MMOFPS, not a MMOSSG nor a MMOSim

Maybe your focusing too much on the RP and not enough on MMORPG
I'm pretty sure some of those letters stand for massively, multiplayer, online and game.

Honestly what online game do you play? I know I play DDO.

Mercules
12-10-2007, 09:53 AM
I think that misses the point of this thread.

It's not just that the balance in DDO is different than the balance in D&D. It's that these imbalances exist in D&D.

Even without the things people are listing that give spellcasters such advantages in DDO (AI, metamagaic, spell points, no touch attacks), they're the most powerful classes in D&D. Even doing a strict interpretation of the rules as they apply to DDO wouldn't solve all the problems, because casters would still be more powerful than everyone else.

Ok... while the imbalances exist, they are balanced out over a broader canvas.

Compare the level 1 Sorcerer to a level 1 Fighter in PnP.

Sorcerer
AC = 10+Dex bonus(maybe with Mage Armor or Shield added in for short periods of time)
To hit = +0 to +4 depending on circumstances/feats it is unusual to see more than a +4 and that is most often under ideal circumstances
Spells
He knows 4 cantrips that he can cast 5/day and 2 1st that he can cast 3/day.
HP = 1-4(most people start characters out with full HPs first level)

Fighter
AC= 10+armor+shield usually about 16-19 and can easily be higher
To hit = +1 to +7 and very frequently around +5 after feats and stat bonus are all added in.
HP = 1-10(Again usually max at first level but often higher because Fighters often have a better Con)

At first level the Sorcerer is likely to use something like Sleep(yes it works well in that game) which makes him VERY powerful, three times per day. Otherwise he is often busy trying really hard not to get singled out as a target and usually shooting a crossbow in combat. The Fighter, on the other hand, is often wading into combat with enough AC to make him difficult to be hit by what they should be facing, enough HPs to survive at least one hit, and enough To Hit to smack around most foes.

Those early levels are all about Fighters bearing the brunt of the burden in combat. They have the most action until the caster is actually needed and then they get their 2 seconds of fame and go back to, "and your doing the same thing this turn?".

This changes up later on. For a while everyone is VERY important. Then we get to the higher levels where AC starts to become less useful, things start to regularly have DR or be immune to physical damage in some way(say by flying way up high with a Missile Shield spell up?). Fighters loose their shine. This is when campaigns start to get completed, not with the damage spells but utility and shortcut spells. Why fight your way up through the levels of a castle when the Wizard can teleport you to the throne room to confront the Duke directly and then Magelock the doors to prevent company.

DDO lacks the "Utility" aspect of magic and the clever GM who sets up a bunch of circumstances that allows everyone to help out. Even in PnP you have days where your character is sidelined for someone with a better set of abilities for the circumstances. Claravoyance and Claraudience might have been able to find out the same info my Rogue did by sneaking up to the commander's tent, but it would have been difficult to use it to find out the things he got when he disguised himself as a new servant and wandered around "gossiping" with them to find things out. ;)

Serpent
12-10-2007, 09:56 AM
Well, actually it's not. When are people going to learn that MMORPGs are about roleplaying? The object of the game is not building the most powerful character, as if that wasn't a completely subjective analysis anyway. If we all based our opinions of character power on the ability to sneak rather than to kill, we would all find rogues, rangers, and bards to be grossly overpowered, wouldn't we?

When are people going to learn that a MMO is about fun. How one achieves that fun is up to them. Saying that it is about roleplaying is just ignoring the whole actuality of the game. The reason we base our opinions on damage output is becaue that is how you achieve almost every quest. Outside of mastermind which you still need damage to get too adn the other puzzles in the game, There is a boss that has to be defeated. If they require you to sneak around him and he then is foiled in his nefarious plan then great, then sneak would maybe over powered. (personally think that is a horrible example)


I've said it before I'll say it again. There is no trick to building anything uber. Back in the day it was simply a matter of rolling dice (or hitting "reroll" on the computer screen) until you came up with a character with stats above 14 all the way around. In DDO, it's simply a matter of picking a particular race and class, after unlocking Drow and 32-pt builds, then grinding away for loot. If you play these games long enough, however, you eventually learn that the most "powerful" (highest stats) characters are not usually the most fun. You start looking for the low stats you want as well as the high. The game of D&D (and therefore DDO) is as much about playing a character's weaknesses as it is playing their strengths.

Thats a fine plan on how to play a character but I think you are in a small minority of players who attempt to gimp themselves in order to find enjoyment. In fact I would wager to say that most people like playing powerful characters to emulate a godlike psychological fantasy. But I will not bust out with my too many years of psych classes. The older MMOs where exactly that older, this is a newer one and there fore is subject to the growing genre. I can't count the number of people I know who play just because the combat system is unique.


Every class needs something to be good at, which is why I've been so critical of the changes to trapsmithing DCs that has occurred. Rogues need to be good at several roguish actions, and the screwed up DCs actually make them less good at what they do, not more specialized. Other than that, "balance" can take a flying leap out the window. It has nothing to do with the reasons I play the game.

Yes every class does need something to be good at. That is why I have advocated the benefits for pure class builds. I understand that you are having fun and balance is not an issue to you but why post to say so. Are you against balance and what super inflated spells mobs and damage? Do you want over powered items and god like stats? I think you jsut said you don't.

gpk
12-10-2007, 09:59 AM
Yer doggone right high level mages are overpowered .....as well they should be .....They are after all HIGH LEVEL charachters who could strike down mountains with a a single word.Wizards and sorcerors on Pen and Paper are exactly the same as in this game...problem solvers.Terribly feared and misunderstood by all who have never played one..as well they should be :)

Noone is arguing that they shouldn't be very powerful , or heck more powerful.
But what good is taking the already more powerful classes and doubling their power? Were they lacking before?

For the sake of argument let's say a Sorc/Wiz was 1.2 times as powerful as a Barbarian and 1.3 x another melee class in Mod4.
Mod 5 comes along and doubles that power, so now a Sorc/Wiz 2.4 times as powerful as a Barbarian and 2.6 times as powerful as other melee classes.
Is that good for gameplay ? Were there complaint in mod4 that Sorc/Wiz was underpowered?

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:02 AM
And rule zero says that an experianced DM does not make PnP more balanced.


Umm I DM every Friday night and thats not what the zero rule says. It's great that it does for you, but last I checked my DMG, it said (roughly) to always make changes carefully but if change is warranted, change things for the benefit of fun and to becareful if a change is to powerful as to ruin fun. (metamagic in mod 5)

DMG page 14 "Make sure that a change genuinely improves your campaign for everybody."

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:08 AM
Yer doggone right high level mages are overpowered .....as well they should be .....They are after all HIGH LEVEL charachters who could strike down mountains with a a single word.Wizards and sorcerors on Pen and Paper are exactly the same as in this game...problem solvers.Terribly feared and misunderstood by all who have never played one..as well they should be :)

No they shouldn't because this is not a R.A. Salvatore novel and generally those characters that do that are the ones we are hired to beat on as PCs. In DDO, with the real time combat system, that does not = good times for all. I have played a wizard. I gave him up cause it was boring. I have 70 spells in my spell book and I use maybe 10 and if i use any others it doesn't get the job done. And PnP is getting overhauled because of this drastic over powered nature of casters. Maybe this game should emulate that.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:11 AM
I just wanted to say that if casters don't see a limitation of some sort it will come in the form of mobs. Next mod has that. Devils are IMMUNE to fire. That in it self will change the landscape. I see that is being very good for the game. But I already can imagine the ZOMG threads about devils having immunities.

gpk
12-10-2007, 10:12 AM
I just wanted to say that if casters don't see a limitation of some sort it will come in the form of mobs. Next mod has that. Devils are IMMUNE to fire. That in it self will change the landscape. I see that is being very good for the game. But I already can imagine the ZOMG threads about devils having immunities.

It's ok, Maximized Polar Ray and Cone of Cold will make short work of devils :)

GrayOldDruid
12-10-2007, 10:16 AM
well let's see, My casters have same or higher con and same or more HP than My many melee classes in DDO, none of my casters invests in Dex really (no reason to). I cast Blur, Displace (stoneskin later), 100% fortification, casting while running and jumping around = not getting hit. Dead Mobs for next to zero risk to caster.

Clearly we don't play the same game or you just play with really mediocre casters.


60%? That's the number you wanna go with? Throwing up a firewall is Melee support? LOL


Caster getting aggro = Hop back dsiplaced w jump and stoneskin avoid all mobs and re-cast spell. Got a firewall ? Hit a DP clicky and block with a tower shield till all mobs are dead.


Again idk which casters you play with, but My DDO casters have LOTS of HP and 100% fortification and stoneskin. My Melees can have twice the health and they would still be far behind; they get hit a helluva lot more than My casters with all the aggro in the world.



How many Level 14 Mod5 groups wouldn't be better off with 4/6 players being a Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer? In my opinion A rogue is only needed on level 14 quests to get the optional box in Temple of Vol, and maybe a Barbarian is good to distract a Doomsphere for a while.

Honestly what online game do you play? It sure as hell doesn't seem we both play DDO.

(fixed some things up there)

I play the WHOLE game, not just the lvl 14 of the game. Seems like you are missing out on 13 levels of play, did you buy your character pre-capped from an online service?

If you think casters have the same con and HP as a Fighter or Barbarian, you're cracked, or you just play with extremely mediocre Melees. While I am only up tp 13 lvl on one character, casters still go down a bit more than tanks.

And I just saw a post where the caster build invested heavily in Dex (not that I agree with doing that, but they obviously thought it helped a lot).
So you're "No caster invests in dex" should really say, "I don't invest in dex on my casters" Actually, most of your post should be "I don't" and "I never" and "I cast" instead of ASSuming that everyone plays EXACTLY like you.

Throwing up a firewall IS melee support when the melees are screaming at the caster for it.

And NO, not ALL casters have 100% Fort (more melees have 100% fort than casters) and not ALL casters use stoneskin.

And you are right, we don't play the same game. I play DDO. You play DDO. And the great thing about playing DDO is that everyone can get all kinds of different experiences from it. I focus on the parts of DDO as a MMORPG that make me happy and enjoy the game. If what you are focused on now doesn't make you happy or enjoy the game... change your focus.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:17 AM
It's ok, Maximized Polar Ray and Cone of Cold will make short work of devils :)

At least it costs more to cast, and is harder to hit maximum amount of mobs. (smiley deleted)

Asirin
12-10-2007, 10:18 AM
No they shouldn't because this is not a R.A. Salvatore novel and generally those characters that do that are the ones we are hired to beat on as PCs. In DDO, with the real time combat system, that does not = good times for all. I have played a wizard. I gave him up cause it was boring. I have 70 spells in my spell book and I use maybe 10 and if i use any others it doesn't get the job done. And PnP is getting overhauled because of this drastic over powered nature of casters. Maybe this game should emulate that.

And to think when mod 4 came out people actually QUIT because casters were getting NERFED:)

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:21 AM
(
I play the WHOLE game, not just the lvl 14 of the game. Seems like you are missing out on 13 levels of play, did you buy your character from an online service?



I do too I have played form level 1 to 14 about 11 times. It was fun at times. A grind at others. Try playing this since launch and see if those same first 13 levels are as enchanting. Two years verse 4 months makes a huge difference and opens your eyes to a lot.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:23 AM
And to think when mod 4 came out people actually QUIT because casters where getting NERFED:)

lol oh yes I remember, what where they thinking. If only we had crystal balls .:)

I asked a wizard if he wished he had more spell points the other day (he has 1920). he responded oh yes that way I could skip shrines and go faster. Makes ya think a little.

gpk
12-10-2007, 10:24 AM
(fixed some things up there)

I play the WHOLE game, not just the lvl 14 of the game. Seems like you are missing out on 13 levels of play, did you buy your character from an online service?

If you think casters have the same con and HP as a Fighter or Barbarian, you're cracked, or you just play with extremely mediocre Melees. While I am only up tp 13 lvl on one character, casters still go down a bit more than tanks.

And I just saw a post where the caster build invested heavily in Dex (not that I agree with doing that, but they obviously thought it helped a lot).
So you're "No caster invests in dex" should really say, "I don't invest in dex on my casters" Actually, most of your post should be "I don't" and "I never" and "I cast" instead of ASSuming that everyone plays EXACTLY like you.

Throwing up a firewall IS melee support when the melees are screaming at the caster for it.

And NO, not ALL casters have 100% Fort (more melees have 100% fort than casters) and not ALL casters use stoneskin.

And you are right, we don't play the same game. I play DDO. You play DDO. And the great thing about playing DDO is that everyone can get all kinds of different experiences from it.

Really how much time do you spend playing the WHOLE game? How much of that time is NOT spent on end-game content and levels? Sorry to make you waste all that red ink, but it's not MY casters, its 95% of the casters out there.
Should the game be balanced for the 5% of players you list in your examples or the 95% of the players the rest of us play with?

However point well taken , 75% fortification, displacement, running jumping around while casting without stoneskin is more than enough. I wonder if mobs get the phantom attack bug when they swing at us...

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:31 AM
I wonder if mobs get the phantom attack bug when they swing at us...

Get your own thread :)

Ringlord
12-10-2007, 10:34 AM
MT my point is that the imbalances the OP is referring to stem from the intentional differences created in DDO from pnp because it is an MMO and because computer AI is the only way for the game to control the mobs we fight. That is the root of all the problems of imbalance.

Raithe
12-10-2007, 10:42 AM
When are people going to learn that a MMO is about fun. How one achieves that fun is up to them. Saying that it is about roleplaying is just ignoring the whole actuality of the game.

I'm saying that assuming the game is not about roleplaying is ignoring the whole actuality. The game was designed for roleplay. The rules are there to give roleplay a mathematical framework, and to wave in the face of an idiot playing a barbarian who "wants to cast a spell today."



The reason we base our opinions on damage output is becaue that is how you achieve almost every quest.

If you want to challenge the DDO standard for quest designing, I'm right there with you. You're not, though, and that makes you something other than my ally.



I understand that you are having fun...

I'm not. I have an opposing agenda, however, and your fix would make things worse for me.



...and balance is not an issue to you but why post to say so. Are you against balance and what super inflated spells mobs and damage? Do you want over powered items and god like stats? I think you jsut said you don't.

I'm all for making the game less about acquiring gear and making novice builds capable of success. I'm not in favor of changing the dynamic between melee and magic that has always existed as long as I can remember. Even at low levels, melee should be mostly concerned with protecting the other members of the party, and less about killing everything in sight. At higher levels the melee game becomes more social in nature, where the protections of the past can be used to their advantage. You should be grateful you have a relationship with a high level magic-user who has your back, rather than jealous of the fact he can turn everything in sight to stone.

smatt
12-10-2007, 10:48 AM
I wasn't aware that balance was a main concern of DnD... The high level caster has ALWAYS been overpowered, hasn't it? Honestly, I'm not sure reinventing the wheel so that people who only play fighters can feel better about their characters in DDO is a good idea.

Besides, a well built character of any class can and will be an asset to just about any group.


The true imbalance in the game ahs come about with the "mana problem". In other words unlimited spell casting ability...... Casters basically have the ability to cast unlimited spells, due to the fact that there's mana fountain everywhere, with the exception to the raids where you're locked in, and in those they can just drink the unlimited amount of duped mana pots from the AH.

High level Sorcs (with Wizzys 2nd) are suppossed to be the most powerful within the D&D system, no doubt. But I think they've created a problem in DDO with the mana situation. The limit on casters in PnP D&D is the # of spells per level per day, if they did that in DDO, well it would slow things way down, not a good idea to go that route....

Not sure how to solve the unlimited casting ability, I've thought long and hard on it. Don't get me wrong, I love the casters, they often make things easy and are essential and should be bad ass . BUT I find that a lot of the time, after one has playeed a caster for a while, their head tends to grow to epic proportions, they tend to forget there's other people in the party, the buffs go by the wayside, they simply run ahead and kill everything in site.... Out of mana.. NP they just recall recharge and off to the races again.

There is indeed an imbalance problem.... They seem to be addressing the rogue problem by increasing the damage of the traps through-out the game, nice. And I see some bad ass rangers out ther ethat canm easily keep thigns in goood form. A well built offensive cleric, can indeed be darned close to a Wizzy/ or Sorc for that matter as far as power. Tanks, well it's all how you play, then how you build... Bards, hey man, bards are cool..... They make things easy in a lot of quests....

There's some balance and imbalance yes, but I think the biggest problem is the unlimited casting ability of the the Sorcs and Wizzys...... How to solve without destroying the game????? Not sure at this point really. But I think MysticTheurge has a good point.. More mobs with real SR, and ungodly resistances to elementals..... Yep, there needs to be more mobs that the casters just plain can't nuke..... Seems Mod 6 with the introdution of devils MIGHT vreate a bit of a problem for the balloon heads.. But we shall see :)

Nothing better then seeing the fits fromt he balloon heads because they gave a few shadows immunity to fire (but no to cold????? ).... LOLOLOLOLOLOL



Yep, unlimited mana is the current MAJOR imbalance within the DDO game system......

Serpent
12-10-2007, 10:55 AM
I'm all for making the game less about acquiring gear and making novice builds capable of success. I'm not in favor of changing the dynamic between melee and magic that has always existed as long as I can remember. Even at low levels, melee should be mostly concerned with protecting the other members of the party, and less about killing everything in sight. At higher levels the melee game becomes more social in nature, where the protections of the past can be used to their advantage. You should be grateful you have a relationship with a high level magic-user who has your back, rather than jealous of the fact he can turn everything in sight to stone.

LOL. Jealous huh? Nope not at all. I have a caster and I know exactly what they can do. Roleplay you say. Sure thats a great idea for those that want to. Most people play a game to have fun, to be social and to beat the **** out of something. I play for all three reasons, but not to roleplay. Its just not fun for me when I don't get a great facial response or contorted body movement. It is for you and great. Grateful though? That's a stretch. Oh thank you mister caster for saving my life and making me do anything in this quest pointless beyond my own need to swing an imaginary sword.

I just disagree on out definition of roleplay...this is mine: role-play /ˈroʊlˌpleɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rohl-pley] –verb (used with object)
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction:

I don't understand your agenda. What do you want? Tell us. Calling me your enemy (implied by not ally) because I advocated the need for balance (not the logistics on how to change) just seems to be a poor response. Please explain your opposing agenda?

GrayOldDruid
12-10-2007, 10:56 AM
I wonder if mobs get the phantom attack bug when they swing at us...

No, they don't... they can hit with melee from 30' away.

"What the heck just hit me? Nothing is even close!!"

95% of people playing not have not been playing since launch ( or is that 'it can't be that 95% of current player base is already capped' ) If that is the case, then DDO IS in trouble. New players are needed and if it is not somewhere closer to a 45% high-level players to 55% new-mid level players, then yikes. Anyone who likes or loves this game should be recruiting new players.

I am sure that in 2 years my perceptions of the game will have changed, perhaps dramatically. ( still, Goodblade quests and most harbor quests are already at the "*Sigh*, not again..." level. ) I hope, however, that I am never totally focused on one level of play and ignore or disregard that there is, in fact, more to the game.

Hopefully, I will stop playing the cookie cutter way and try playing with different spell setups... not even have firewall memorized on my caster or go through with only one set of weapons/armor instead of a set for each and every circumstance. or try Permadeath.... maybe a *gasp* Lightening/Acid based caster!!

I still don't think that there is a big imbalance in the Whole Game, but can see imbalance on a per-level basis - and think that is just fine.

And I am with Raithe - I am in favor of making quests that do not rely on DPS or Killing everything in sight as the sole method of completing the quest. I am in favor of having the Rogue be more necessary/useful. I am in favor of having sneaking be a viable alternative to quest completion. I am in favor of the "Optionals" being more rewarding. I think at higher levels that an uber fighter should be an uber wizard's bodyguard. I think that Multi-classed players should have just as much fun and ability to contribute meaningfully at 'end game' as 'pure' classes. That uber-equipment and 'clickies' should not be required to be effective.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 11:01 AM
Hopefully, I will stop playing the cookie cutter way and try playing with different spell setups... not even have firewall memorized on my caster or go through with only one set of weapons/armor instead of a set for each and every circumstance. or try Permadeath....


I hope you can do what you advocate. It would be much fun. Find a strong guild though. One that lets you be an individual. I say this cause I can see many groups throwing a fit about you not having fire wall or not suing your best gear.

Mercules
12-10-2007, 11:02 AM
I'm all for making the game less about acquiring gear and making novice builds capable of success. I'm not in favor of changing the dynamic between melee and magic that has always existed as long as I can remember. Even at low levels, melee should be mostly concerned with protecting the other members of the party, and less about killing everything in sight. At higher levels the melee game becomes more social in nature, where the protections of the past can be used to their advantage. You should be grateful you have a relationship with a high level magic-user who has your back, rather than jealous of the fact he can turn everything in sight to stone.

And I think you hit it in the first shot with this, Raithe. In PnP the group becomes a group and has group dynamics. They aren't always friends, but the characters work together because of something and in the end you often end up "owing" the other guy a favor or respect, or something nebulous. Because of this when the balance changes from me protecting the group, to you protecting the group it isn't jealousy that rises, but a sense of comradeship. In an MMO you have the "single serving" friends that are an amusing concept mentioned in Fight Club. If you are not useful in that particular quest, you are a detriment to the group instead of being an investment for the next quest where your skills will save the day.

Small guilds, groups of friends who play the same characters together, and such tend to end up with this very D&D concept from PnP. PuGs, normal MMO players, and such don't tend to have this. This moment is important for most of them, and I can understand how and where this came from.

This means the balance is less important in PnP campaigns, and shouldn't be important in DDO, but is because of the PuG nature of grouping. Even guild groups in moderate or large guilds tend to be a PuG developed from a shorter list of better known people.

Static groups create unique synergies and make certain tactics work that would never work with a group of strangers. On the other hand static groups mean there are times when people are missing and so no one is playing.

Nice point Raithe.

Deragoth
12-10-2007, 11:06 AM
This is a really funny quote....you realize that *most* people would disagree that this makes the game more fun? I cannot believe you would think very many players at all would agree with this as being *fun* in any way.
Cookie-cutter MMO's are not fun (at least for me). Everyone has the same progressions, there ends up being 3 main character types... and it gets old. Really old, really fast. In DDO, players make the class, and a really well played character helps any group. I understand some people HAVE to have all the high end gear that others have, or HAVE to be exactly as good at dps as others or they just can't have fun. I guess I don't. I enjoy versatility, and there is inequality when you have versatility.

Now, DDO has become quite Undead happy, which tends to kill a melee characters effectiveness (killed mine, anyway). In that regard, I hope Mod 6 introduces lots of critable/sneakable mobs. Honestly, I have more fun on my fighter with his uninteruptable kopesh wielding carnage, tripping and stunning, and having a good ol' time. But even though I feel like a wimp in the orchard, even with a disrupter/greaterbane and ethereal bracers... I still would rather have the versatility.


Nothing better then seeing the fits fromt he balloon heads because they gave a few shadows immunity to fire (but no to cold????? ).... LOLOLOLOLOLOL

:D man I was miffed about that. But you are right about the "unlimited mana". If it were me, I'd start with getting rid of the mana potions all together. There is really no need for them, and it changes the dynamic quite a bit. You don't even need to buy them off the auction house. Just loot run for a couple hours, and you can get a stack of 10 pretty quick.

Then, maybe look at increasing general melee power, specifically the poor, poor pally. He needs more melee lovin'. They mentioned a fighter/barb melee enhancement called melee alacrity a while back, but players freaked out and said melee was overpowered as it is. That might be cool. But whatever you do, Turbine, put the darn nerf bat down.

Raithe
12-10-2007, 11:14 AM
Please explain your opposing agenda?

Refer to Merc's post, above. This game should be about the group and group dynamics (and intra-group roleplaying). Individual success is as irrelevant as it is unnoticed.


... In PnP the group becomes a group and has group dynamics. ...

Serpent
12-10-2007, 11:27 AM
Refer to Merc's post, above. This game should be about the group and group dynamics (and intra-group roleplaying). Individual success is as irrelevant as it is unnoticed.

I agree with both of you and that is why I play PnP. This not PnP and will never bee. PnP is a great template but this game ahs to evolve on its own. I believe that evolution has gone haywire.

Cowdenicus
12-10-2007, 11:32 AM
:D man I was miffed about that. But you are right about the "unlimited mana". If it were me, I'd start with getting rid of the mana potions all together. There is really no need for them, and it changes the dynamic quite a bit. You don't even need to buy them off the auction house. Just loot run for a couple hours, and you can get a stack of 10 pretty quick.

Then, maybe look at increasing general melee power, specifically the poor, poor pally. He needs more melee lovin'. They mentioned a fighter/barb melee enhancement called melee alacrity a while back, but players freaked out and said melee was overpowered as it is. That might be cool. But whatever you do, Turbine, put the darn nerf bat down.

Take out my mana potions, and I hope you have about ten spots open in your backpack, because you better be real quick on the gun with heal pots.....

My blue bar =/= your red bar.

Zenako
12-10-2007, 11:53 AM
DDO vs PnP (normal rule set)

#1!!! No friendly fire to worry about in DDO. Makes AoE spells nobrainer and reduces the need for tactics quite a bit.

#2!! Spell points vs spell slots. In PnP you seldom can cast more than a couple of shots of your highest level Spell effect (be it a raw spell or a metamagiced up lower level spell). Means you have to save your big guns for the right time.

#3! Mana pots. No real comparison to anything in PnP except resting/sleeping (which the Shrines represent). They enable excessive consumption of spell points to overpower quests. At capped levels, there is NO penalty for recalling, except for a few minutes of real time. Mana pots were an afterthought it appears and have unintentionally added a level of imbalance to the game between casters and non-casters.

#4 Fortification. In PnP effective fortification is really only available on armor and shields (not hats, and rings and necklaces, etc). That means that those in lesser protections remained vulnerable even at higher levels. (My bard has three choices for Heavy Fort these days (BAM Necklace, Orchard Helm or Common Robe) so is seldom exposed to criticals these days.)

So from a "balance" perspective, a number of the factors that serve to control or limit the effectiveness of casters in PnP have been taken out of the equation. So sure, casters are now unfettered in their ability to exert control over the battlefield. (I know, had a small group of three trashing the Gianthold this weekend. Wiz, Cleric and my Bard...the mobs did not have a chance.)

What could be done without completely revamping the systems.

Tweaks.
Assuming that Mana pots do not go away, make them not stack, like Holy Sword ingredients. If that deep pockets Sorc wants to have unlimited mana for a quest, then that will fill most of the backpack. I suspect they were initially intended to be held in an emergency reserve to get a little mana back to "save the day". That is not how they generally get used these days.

Limit the maximum metamagic effects you can stack.

Make more optional things (like the Marut room in Vol) need subsets of skills (like lock picking in this case).

Monster AI regarding persistent spells. It should be simply enough to encode an algorithm. 1 - taking damage from AoE spell on the "list". 2 - move towards source of casting , 3 - if cannot move towards source, (due to obstacles or being blocked by characters) move out of AoE back along line of approach used to reach that location, 4 - seek new foe (PC) to engage.

Implement some of the ranged combat fixes mentioned by Codog.

I am sure there are other tweaks that could occur, such as an enhancement modification to address some of the percieved issues.

CrazySamaritan
12-10-2007, 12:14 PM
Umm I DM every Friday night and thats not what the zero rule says. It's great that it does for you, but last I checked my DMG, it said (roughly) to always make changes carefully but if change is warranted, change things for the benefit of fun and to becareful if a change is to powerful as to ruin fun. (metamagic in mod 5)

DMG page 14 "Make sure that a change genuinely improves your campaign for everybody."
Gah, I'm misquoting things again. Instead of quoting, I should make a statement;

The ability that living DMs have to adjust the game based on the needs/desires of his players does nothing to inherently balance the game. Sorcerers and clerics are, out and out, a bad class compared to wizards. A high level fighter is weak compared to a high level caster. In lower levels, this is reversed.

For DDO, casters are stronger earlier on, and meleers are stronger than they normally would be later on. You are right; the game needs balance. The game needs a balance independent from PnP. But certain truisms of PnP shouldn't be lost, in my opinion.

Cowdenicus
12-10-2007, 12:24 PM
No what the game needs to do is fix melee combat in the game (cumulative to hit bonuses and all) and add Cleric Domains and more spells to the game and also to remove repair people from the game to facilitate some more wear on weapons.

I would in fact argue that melee in DDO is consdierably overpowered from their pen and paper counterparts in DDO.

The problem is not that melee types in this game dont have enough DPS, the problem is they have entirely high to hits and damage.

Guess what, other than barbarians and arguably rangers the only need for DPS from a melee is to hold agro. Of ocurse every fighter out there wants to be the leetsauce uber killer guy...... I would take a fighter that knew how to hit stunning blow and intimidate over a fighter with great dps 10 out of 10 times.

Serpent
12-10-2007, 01:50 PM
My friend who originally composed the thread had a few responses to some of what the posters have said. here they are

1. "Recalling for mana is the big problem".
That's just a small part of the problem. Fact is, sorcerer-types are already so boosted by the cheap metamagic cost that they basically don't need to waste the time recalling for mana.

2. "Mnemonic Enhancer potions are a big problem"
No, they're not really. How often does a caster actually need to drink them? Very rarely. If some players have big stacks leftover from an old duping bug, they won't last forever. And as to Cowdenicus who says his cleric's healing is based on mana pots- that's just silly. Use heal scrolls in the unlikely event you can't heal from your own mana.

3. "Spell crits are a big problem"
They're only a minor increase to the damage-power of a sor/wiz.
Spending 12 total AP on spell crits (plus using a weapon slot to hold a Superior Lore item) gives you a total 18% chance to crit fire spells for 2.75x damage. That comes to a net increase of 49%. That _looks_ like a lot... but it took a lot of APs to get there, and more importantly, the extra damage will not apply in most fights. Only on bosses with extra-high hps will you get the full benefit of that damage. Against normal monsters, you'll generally win the fight before you get any spell crits. And if you _do_ roll a crit, that usually means you bring the mob to -400 hp, instead of just -50. Dead is dead; the extra damage is wasted as overkill that didn't help win the fight. (If future monsters get substantially more hps, spell crits will be a bigger factor).

4. "Game balance doesn't matter, because you should be roleplaying"
Yeah, I'd like to roleplay. It would be fun to roleplay that a dashing paladin, psychotic barbarian, or lurking rogue is a hero battling the forces of evil with her extraordinary skills. But the idea you are a hero of good is undermined by the _fact_ that the evil monsters would be beaten more quickly and reliably if you logged out and got a caster instead. We can't roleplay "being an adventurer" if all that means is pulling aggro for the casters and then finishing off their scraps.

5. "It is GOOD that wiz/sorc are overpowered at high level. D&D has always done that, so it's good."
Well, this is the crucial one, huh? Unfortunately this bit of mis-thought isn't exactly rare. I'd like to say that it's so mis-understood there's no reason to bother explaining how its wrong... but... I guess it's too common to ignore.

5a. The first thing wrong is that it's false. In older D&D, wizards needed more XP to gain 1 level. So they were weakened in that way... the thief would almost hit level 8 when the wizard was still level 5. Also, in current D&D wizards are not really weaker at low level. They've already got 2-3 spells at level 1, and something like Sleep or Color Spray win an entire battle in one round. Charm Person can win an entire quest with 1 spell. The idea that fighters are drastically better at low level doesn't hold up.

5b. The other thing is that it's nonfun. The entire idea of "balanced across different phases of the game" doesn't make any gameplay sense. (It has a little justification in terms of verisimilitude, but gameplay SHOULD trump that).

What can be good about a system where Class A is weak at level 1-5, and then Class B is weak at level 10-30? Gameplay should be fun at ALL levels. It'd be silly to think that the role of a warrior character is to defend the casters until they reach a level where warriors are obselete; then the players switch and level up caster alts for you too, and from then on all parties are 90% caster if they want to win.

Mercules
12-10-2007, 02:02 PM
What can be good about a system where Class A is weak at level 1-5, and then Class B is weak at level 10-30? Gameplay should be fun at ALL levels. It'd be silly to think that the role of a warrior character is to defend the casters until they reach a level where warriors are obselete; then the players switch and level up caster alts for you too, and from then on all parties are 90% caster if they want to win.

The only solution is to play a system that lacks classes and levels. GURPS comes to mind. Trust me, when they make a proper GURPS MMO I will no longer play DDO. ;)

That is not the only role of a warrior class. However, what ends up happening in PnP is that at first the warrior is the powerhouse of the group, everyone else does whatever they can. The caster(s) will often use their spell(s) at a key time to make a difference, but the day to day things are handled by warriors. Later on it can turn around. The caster will try and throw a PK on a key foe, but often it will fail and you don't get to spam them till you succeed. At that point it is the warriors show again for the "boss" while the arcane often ends up getting rid of the popcorn so the warrior can handle the boss without interference. This is where things like Wall of Force and Firewall shine, keeping the party away from reinforcements for the bad guys(good guys or whatever).

Yes, a Wizard at level 20 can slay an army with a few spells. A Fighter at level 20 can slay an army, only he does it a half dozen at a time. ;)

Zenako
12-10-2007, 02:19 PM
Individually points 1,2 and 3 of your replies are perhaps not a "big issue", but the synergy of those effects strongly contributes to the effectiveness of casters.

I don't think anyone really has a problem with casters who CAN kill with a spell (if the target fails its save). Where the complaints often seem to arise is when the casters are able to use that same approach with every mob in the quest leaving nothing for anyone else to do except break boxes or possible smash some stoned mobs (lawn gnomes) if those were left behind. The benefit for melees has always been that they can keep swinging "24/7" and that casters need to ration their spells. When you modifiy the game dynamics to where casters no longer need to ration there spells, then it becomes a whole different dynamic.

In a MMO, the critical factors are often not resources like gold and plat (like in a PnP game) but more often game time uses of playtime. The reason many people (with capped toons) use Spell Point Potions is simply to save time from recalling to a shrine or tavern to recharge spell points. The 4 minutes of "game time" is more valuable to them than the xxxx PLat those pots were worth. With the upcoming reuseabiliyt of rest shrines (after a certain passage of time) the use of Pots might dimish slightly in a few quests, but the same people who chug them now (in all but raid quests where you cannot reenter once started) will probably still value the time over the plat. So how can we affect this dynamic?

One way might be to make spell point Pots work more like certain foods in the taverns, with points coming back over time, but slowly. That would slow down the casting zergfest a bit. If they worked like normal pumped regen in the INNS, (8 spell points every 6 seconds or 80 a minute) then the casters would be able to recover, but not be instantly restored to a full bank. Keeps the pots viable. Lets you use them for what I presume was their original intention and that will change a portion of the uber casting dynamic.

Raithe
12-10-2007, 02:26 PM
But the idea you are a hero of good is undermined by the _fact_ that the evil monsters would be beaten more quickly and reliably if you logged out and got a caster instead.

If your group would actually fair better with a caster instead of a melee, I see no reason for this to be a problem. As I said before, every class needs something they are good at, and melee still have a function - it just isn't the function that many people assume it is, or want it to be. If the game was really just about who could do the most damage and get away with it, everyone would build self-healing warforged paladin2/sorceror12s and nuke&swing away.

The ridiculous part of the anti-roleplay class balance argument is that another term for "class" as it pertains to this game is "role." You want to roleplay a melee (swinging a sword), but demand killing power equivalent to a spellcaster? That does not fit in with the fantasy genre, and is some sort of skewed MMO gamer mentality that I have difficulty fathoming...



We can't roleplay "being an adventurer" if all that means is pulling aggro for the casters and then finishing off their scraps.


...and which is exemplified by the statement above.

Emili
12-10-2007, 03:44 PM
If your group would actually fair better with a caster instead of a melee, I see no reason for this to be a problem. As I said before, every class needs something they are good at, and melee still have a function - it just isn't the function that many people assume it is, or want it to be. If the game was really just about who could do the most damage and get away with it, everyone would build self-healing warforged paladin2/sorceror12s and nuke&swing away.

The ridiculous part of the anti-roleplay class balance argument is that another term for "class" as it pertains to this game is "role." You want to roleplay a melee (swinging a sword), but demand killing power equivalent to a spellcaster? That does not fit in with the fantasy genre, and is some sort of skewed MMO gamer mentality that I have difficulty fathoming...

...and which is exemplified by the statement above.

Role-playing is for the table top where roles can actually be played and met... DDO does not cater to role-play in no way applicable... there is not a high level of stealth here, no real npc interaction, no real interventions or randomness here outside the die roll on a swing or spell cast.

LOL... we see so many of these threads... it goes hand in heand with enhancements and who has what and who has not. DDO being an MMO is not DnD. In DnD the roles all bring something to the table and the classes (despite what people are touting here are more balanced then they think). Arcane have limits in DnD where the limits are erroded and enhanced in DDO, Melee have limits in DnD and are enhanced in DDO. There are a few major differences between DDO and table top though besides the overpowerment of classes via enhancement in DDO.

DnD is turn based ... you roll initiative <- this allows most everyone a turn in a round. It typically means that characters spotting and reacting to the situation. Typically the spell caster is a slightly slower reactive class it is usually the rogue and melee who react to the situation first when those initiative dice are rolled. Also spells take time to cast the caster has components they pull out then go thru the movements and somatics to cast things. They rarely thow on meta magics let alone run arround with them constantly on ie.) heighten spell actuall takes up a higher level spell slot etc... People who melee in PnP also have but a handfull of weapons, they're not stocked with a greater bane for every encounter let alone every monster within that encounter... characters in DnD move at different speeds, they're not completely buffed to the hilt for every encounter, friendly fire os part of the game, as is most people do not even concieve of a dedicated healer class nor does any one spell cause 200+ damage let alone five or six fold. Barbarians do not reage 24/7 nor do pally's use divine favor 24/7. A druid is a powerful character - in the woods - but that same druid out of his element may find it difficult in a damp, dark dungeon with no moonlight or sunshine... I can go on and on how in PnP things are fair accross the classes but I'll leave it here....

DDO is an MMO. All MMO's work the same way... mob and an agro mechanism.

We complete quests how? Simple reach the end goal.
We reach the end goal how? Simple we eliminate the mob.
How do you eliminate the mob? Simple you either neutralize them or kill them.
What's the quickest way to kill them? Simple DPS.

It's plain and simple DPS is the most effective element in completing a quest quickly... it is this reason a single DDO caster can plow thru many (even most) high level quests alone in a reasonable amount of time. You can pretty much solo any well built character through these same quests but definately will see the time and resource differences - why? Well DPS burst output. Thinking back... I solo'd Von 3 on my then lvl 9 fighter Emili - I know the quest well... took oh 45 to 50 minutes and a high stock of healing potions... while the other day I took my 14 lvl wiz thru trial by fire on elite ... used maybe 20 cmw heal potions and completed in 9 minutes I think? While I know these are two different quests and two different scenarios it does prove a point ... that is strategically, tactically and in other aspects a ordinary caster class is more efficient (uses less resources, delivers more DPS, and agro control) then your average melee class or for that matter any other class.

What's the ramifications of this over time? well simple you'll see less and less call for high level melee for quests as the game progresses... Eventually, people will play higher level arcane in preference of being a 5th or 6th wheel as they like to feel they participate more rather than just be some sort of bait or tag along for the ride.

Raithe
12-10-2007, 04:23 PM
We complete quests how? Simple reach the end goal.


Really? The goal of an MMORPG is to get to the end? It's not playing the game in an interesting and creative fashion? I think we just found a major flaw in all MMOs...



We reach the end goal how? Simple we eliminate the mob.
How do you eliminate the mob? Simple you either neutralize them or kill them.
What's the quickest way to kill them? Simple DPS.


The fastest way to "eliminate" the mob would be to fascinate/fear/hypno them and/or sneak by them. DPS is often the most expensive, time consuming, and difficult way. Clearly either the goal of an MMORPG is not necessarily to get to the end, or people are just really, really bad at getting there.

WestiesMA
12-10-2007, 04:39 PM
Also posting for a friend without access ATM:

In both PnP and DDO, fighters and melees have ruled the early levels and casters have ruled the higher levels. Whenever a level cap and new content is added, the game dynamic shifts. Remember when the level cap was 10? Fighters and pallys with high AC ruled the kill count and casters hung back and casted buffs and crowd control. Now, with a level cap of 14 that dynamic has shifted. Casters are ruling the kill counts with their high damage AOE spells, and barbarians are now the powerful melees with high DPS. AC is no longer as important as it used to be. As more levels and content are added, this will likely change again.

Early on, casters are basically "along for the ride" except for quests with specific end boss needs such as STK and Stormcleave. If anything, the game has become even more balanced than it was in the early days. Now, the best party is well rounded with both strong melee and caster roles. Melees may not be doing most of the killing, but they are still essential as they are needed to shield block for the caster and to keep the aggro off the caster. Without good melees, a caster will not last long no matter how good the cleric is at healing them.

My 2 cents:

On the issue of casters and clerics dominating LFM's, I think this has to do more with the fact that there are still more people put there playing fighters and barbarians than casters and clerics. For this reason, the melee spots are filled quickly and that leaves the open slots for casters and clerics. IMHO melee classes are much easier and much cheaper to play than casters and clerics. Clerics especially are the hardest to find out here because it is very expensive to play a cleric, and a cleric in a traditional healing role never gets to rock the kill count at low or high level. (I have 3 clerics don't even try to argue with me) The expense alone is enough to drive many clerics into guild-only groups when they know the skill level and needs of those they heal.

Riminy
12-10-2007, 04:58 PM
The fastest way to "eliminate" the mob would be to fascinate/fear/hypno them and/or sneak by them. DPS is often the most expensive, time consuming, and difficult way. Clearly either the goal of an MMORPG is not necessarily to get to the end, or people are just really, really bad at getting there.

1. Load Maximize, Empower and Extend.
2. Gather 10-20 mobs.
3. While running place 2 firewalls at your feet.
4. Jump around in circles avoiding mobs while displaced,hasted,jumped and possibly stoneskinned.
5. Watch mobs die.
6. Look at the melee classes trying to be useful.
7. type /laugh and move on to the next wave of mobs.

As for expensive,time consuming and difficult.. Thats only about 120 (60 per firewall) mana from a sorc who has 1900. It takes about 5-15 seconds to kill the mobs. You dont even get hit.. how is that difficult?

Fascinate takes 5-10 seconds to play. Killing mobs individually.. why do that when you can just firewall everything? Its faster and just as easy. After it the sorc can still throw about 30 more firewalls.

MysticTheurge
12-10-2007, 05:25 PM
Many of you point to the "balance" in D&D that is created by non-casters "ruling" the low levels and casters "ruling" the high-levels. Which is all well and good in D&D. This works in D&D because you have a static group that is going to be playing for some length of time and you're all going to be playing the same characters the whole time. Thus, if your friend Bob's paladin is much stronger early in the campaign and your wizard is much stronger late in the campaign it works out alright because you all get your chance to shine and everything's fine. You can both also look at this dynamic and readily choose to play a paladin who's going to be strong right off the bat and then fade back a bit or a wizard who's going to be fairly weak right off the bat but then grow to wield incredible power.

But here's the thing. DDO has an entirely different group dynamic. In this case, the people who say "DDO is a completely different game" are absolutely right. Unless you're one of those rare people who actually does play in a static group, you've got to deal with all kinds of other grouping dynamics that simply aren't present in D&D. This causes additional issues because at a high level a paladin has to justify why he should be included in a group. This simply doesn't happen in tabletop D&D. You don't go out to an auditorium full of people every time you want to play and get to pick from hundreds of people all wanting to jump in your campaign. Yes, there are ways to circumvent this issue; I'm not saying it's impossible for paladins to get a group in the end game (Just like you might still pick Bob from that auditorium full of people because he's your friend). But it does affect things, and it does require an additional level of balance that D&D does not require.

In addition, there's the time/speed element. A D&D game might take a year or more to get to 6th or 7th level. It could take several years to get up to 11th. There's a significant length of time that you're pushing through with your relatively-weak caster before you get to the "OMG I PWNZ" stage. That is largely not present in DDO. It can take as little as a few days to hit the level cap. And moreover the very presence of the level cap plays a part in this. When a large fraction of your characters life span is going to spent at a given level, it becomes irrelevant that for a small fraction of your lifespan you were weaker than other classes. It's not enough that casters weaker early in the game and then dominate the end game. That's not balance in DDO.

Cowdenicus
12-10-2007, 05:26 PM
/snip

2. "Mnemonic Enhancer potions are a big problem"
No, they're not really. How often does a caster actually need to drink them? Very rarely. If some players have big stacks leftover from an old duping bug, they won't last forever. And as to Cowdenicus who says his cleric's healing is based on mana pots- that's just silly. Use heal scrolls in the unlikely event you can't heal from your own mana.

/snip




Oh I can heal from my own spell point pool and do it often.... realize though that my spell point pool (as per Pen and Paper which is what my clerics [yes multiples] spell poitn pool is based off of) is no where near how many encounters I should have to go between.

I love how you say, just use heal scrolls. How about if all the clerics just told you, just use pots and heal thyself.

My blue bar does not equal a melee's red bar, if you cannot heal yourself, that is your issue. If you will not heal yourself then I have a convenient spot for you in my backpack (where I should be holding heal scrolls) to carry you through the quest.

I get to play my cleric how I want to, not how some melee character dictates it. If you dont like it, thats outstanding, I wont group with you. There are plenty of people on Ghallanda who will group with me, who want me in their groups and who want me in their guilds, and want me on their raids.

Do not presume to dictate to me how I will play my characters. (yes I have almost 100 major mnemonics, and I earned every single one of them. I have a million plat and you know what, I earned that too.)

Cowdenicus
12-10-2007, 05:29 PM
Many of you point to the "balance" in D&D that is created by non-casters "ruling" the low levels and casters "ruling" the high-levels. Which is all well and good in D&D. This works in D&D because you have a static group that is going to be playing for some length of time and you're all going to be playing the same characters the whole time. Thus, if your friend Bob's paladin is much stronger early in the campaign and your wizard is much stronger late in the campaign it works out alright because you all get your chance to shine and everything's fine. You can both also look at this dynamic and readily choose to play a paladin who's going to be strong right off the bat and then fade back a bit or a wizard who's going to be fairly weak right off the bat but then grow to wield incredible power.

But here's the thing. DDO has an entirely different group dynamic. In this case, the people who say "DDO is a completely different game" are absolutely right. Unless you're one of those rare people who actually does play in a static group, you've got to deal with all kinds of other grouping dynamics that simply aren't present in D&D. This causes additional issues because at a high level a paladin has to justify why he should be included in a group. This simply doesn't happen in tabletop D&D. You don't go out to an auditorium full of people every time you want to play and get to pick from hundreds of people all wanting to jump in your campaign. Yes, there are ways to circumvent this issue; I'm not saying it's impossible for paladins to get a group in the end game (Just like you might still pick Bob from that auditorium full of people because he's your friend). But it does affect things, and it does require an additional level of balance that D&D does not require.

In addition, there's the time/speed element. A D&D game might take a year or more to get to 6th or 7th level. It could take several years to get up to 11th. There's a significant length of time that you're pushing through with your relatively-weak caster before you get to the "OMG I PWNZ" stage. That is largely not present in DDO. It can take as little as a few days to hit the level cap. And moreover the very presence of the level cap plays a part in this. When a large fraction of your characters life span is going to spent at a given level, it becomes irrelevant that for a small fraction of your lifespan you were weaker than other classes. It's not enough that casters weaker early in the game and then dominate the end game. That's not balance in DDO.

Alot of the "suggestions" here though would not create "balance" in DDO either. This entire thread is nothing but a thinly veiled rant to nerf casters and clerics, relegate the clerics to "Please heal my ub3r f1g4ter" and "hey caster/bard please buff my uber fighter."

MysticTheurge
12-10-2007, 05:41 PM
Alot of the "suggestions" here though would not create "balance" in DDO either.

Then kindly ignore the unreasonable requests and offer means by which DDO can be balanced.

And try to be a little less "ZOMG don't touch my stuff!!" No one's trying to turn your cleric into a healbot. :rolleyes:

Cowdenicus
12-10-2007, 05:52 PM
Then kindly ignore the unreasonable requests and offer means by which DDO can be balanced.

And try to be a little less "ZOMG don't touch my stuff!!" No one's trying to turn your cleric into a healbot. :rolleyes:

First it is clerics. I have 2 (one at cap, one just shy of 14) and a third one I just started.

Second, this is only a call to nerf clerics and casters.

Third, you cannot balance this game while having the huge disparities that melee have in this game in a d20 system. it is not possible. Something needs to change.

lastly, if somebody here actually posted reasonable discussion points on how to balance this game without wide spread nerfs, I am all ears and willing to contribute, until then this thread needs to be locked because of the flamebait it is.

Torosar
12-10-2007, 07:28 PM
if somebody here actually posted reasonable discussion points on how to balance this game without wide spread nerfs, I am all ears and willing to contribute, until then this thread needs to be locked because of the flamebait it is.

Well if you are going to be critical, technically any attempt at a balance is going to be a nerf one way or another. If melee was made more powerful that would be a nerf to casters. If casters were made weaker somehow through whatever means (I.e Capped Metamagic & various other ideas in this thread), that's a nerf. If mobs are adjusted with whatever means (i.e SR, immunities), thats going to be a nerf to casters. These examples can go on.. my point is, a balance by its very nature means that something/someone has to 'lose out' by something/someone else becoming better so that they become balanced. There are some good points and some reasonable ideas raised in my opinion, i know you don't agree, but i fail to see how any idea raised in this thread will be to your liking given the nature of a balance.

Cowdenicus
12-10-2007, 08:39 PM
Well if you are going to be critical, technically any attempt at a balance is going to be a nerf one way or another. If melee was made more powerful that would be a nerf to casters. If casters were made weaker somehow through whatever means (I.e Capped Metamagic & various other ideas in this thread), that's a nerf. If mobs are adjusted with whatever means (i.e SR, immunities), thats going to be a nerf to casters. These examples can go on.. my point is, a balance by its very nature means that something/someone has to 'lose out' by something/someone else becoming better so that they become balanced. There are some good points and some reasonable ideas raised in my opinion, i know you don't agree, but i fail to see how any idea raised in this thread will be to your liking given the nature of a balance.

A revamp of the entire system, but that will never happen. Melee, casting, mobs, all of it and most importantly LOOT.

gpk
12-10-2007, 08:59 PM
No, they don't... they can hit with melee from 30' away.

"What the heck just hit me? Nothing is even close!!"


You've got to be kidding me...

Cowdenicus
12-10-2007, 09:08 PM
You've got to be kidding me...

No need to step into a beautiful rant with pesky things like facts and logic, let them continue please.:rolleyes:

Raithe
12-10-2007, 10:57 PM
1. Load Maximize, Empower and Extend.
2. Gather 10-20 mobs.
3. While running place 2 firewalls at your feet.
4. Jump around in circles avoiding mobs while displaced,hasted,jumped and possibly stoneskinned.
5. Watch mobs die.
6. Look at the melee classes trying to be useful.
7. type /laugh and move on to the next wave of mobs.

As for expensive,time consuming and difficult.. Thats only about 120 (60 per firewall) mana from a sorc who has 1900. It takes about 5-15 seconds to kill the mobs. You dont even get hit.. how is that difficult?

Fascinate takes 5-10 seconds to play. Killing mobs individually.. why do that when you can just firewall everything? Its faster and just as easy. After it the sorc can still throw about 30 more firewalls.

You can argue that killing is better, safer, even more efficient. Except in quests like Offering of Blood and Desert Caravan, which have really corny quest designs, I'll agree with you. That is assuming, however, that the actual purpose of running the quest is to enjoy the experience, and not to get to the end. You can fascinate on the run, and there is simply nothing faster than spamming web, hypnotism, charms, fascinations, solid fogs, and instakills/flesh2stone as you zerg your way through a DDO linear quest. It's even faster if you can cast haste and invisibility and sprint to the end without interference (Part 2 of Cult of the Six, before the doors anyone?)

The ultimate point is that this game isn't really about getting to the end and completing the last objective. That sounds like work.

Raithe
12-10-2007, 11:27 PM
Unless you're one of those rare people who actually does play in a static group, you've got to deal with all kinds of other grouping dynamics that simply aren't present in D&D.

The fact that these grouping dynamics are present in DDO is simply a testament of the poor design of the game. It's not about having a static group, it's about people being able to get together and play a game without the hostility and insecurity of the outer society polluting it. Trust me, if this game had been designed with roleplaying and storytelling in mind (rather than zerging and loot mongering), we would be facing an entirely different subscriber base than the existing one. If you don't believe me, go read the LotRO forums and see if you don't get a slightly different impression of what's important to the majority in that MMO. Those roleplayers can be downright uncivilized to the uber leetz powergamers. :)


When a large fraction of your characters life span is going to spent at a given level, it becomes irrelevant that for a small fraction of your lifespan you were weaker than other classes.

Everyone can build a caster or cleric if they want. It's not like each player is limited to only one character like it is in a PnP game. I myself enjoy playing my generalist rogue-type main, just as much as my defensive big-game-hunter ranger, just as much as my offensive crowd-controlling caster, just as much as my do-everything generalist bard/rogue. I really don't see that many problems with class balance in the game. I think the real problems are with mechanics and designs that limit imaginative gameplay and a lack of diversity in gameplay elements, such as roleplaying.

SableShadow
12-11-2007, 12:06 AM
Sending specific enemies against your party is the best way to help adjust for imbalances.

Best solution in the thread; loved the discussion on group dynamics also.

SableShadow
12-11-2007, 12:35 AM
anti-roleplay class balance argument

I'm afraid you lost me here; I don't see 'anti-roleplay' and 'class balance' as being the same thing.

As I see it, you are aguing that the heart of the issues is the game's design: emphasis on l00t, and on quest completions (which result in l00t). If the emphasis shifted to something other than l00t, then issues of balance go away.

I concur, actually; however, I don't see a major redesign of DDOs core in the offing, and so have to lean toward MT's thoughts on the issue, as they deal with the situation I currently experience.

Fundamentally, class balance only becomes an issue if one is excluded rather than included in the game as played. No one cares if a caster can nuke an entire map...until players start tossing out terms like 'luggage classes' to refer to non-casters, and exclude them from quests.

Amabel
12-11-2007, 12:38 AM
Bah, scale back the escalating melee attack bonus (more attacks should not mean more to hit) and make area of effect spells do area of effect damage and the problem is solved.

Mobs wouldn't need massive ac and hit points and the cheesy firewall/blade barrier approach would fall out of fashion, or at least some communication would be required.

The run to choke point and lay down cc with firewall and blade barrier, or cast fw or bb on your own party during a fight is the cheesiest part of DDO. Nerfing cloudkill has not fixed the problem. Real area of effect damage would. How do you combat griefing? Bad casters don't get groups. Give the player base a chance at some more "hardcore" play and let the kiddies go back to WOW.

/rant off

Riminy
12-11-2007, 02:06 AM
The ultimate point is that this game isn't really about getting to the end and completing the last objective. That sounds like work.

The ultimate point to any game is completing the objective. Upon completion you are rewarded with experience, chests and a reward. Without ending a quest how would we advance in the game?

Techinically we are Roleplaying adventurers who like to win thus the enjoyable experience is to win the quest.

I also play a ranger and rogue. But if I run one of these characters into an Orchard quest, I am nerfing my team. Makes it hard to roleplay being an adventurer when I'm not helping except when its time to carry the loot. I'm not saying my rogue or ranger is useless but why bother when its easier to do with my wizard?

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 03:05 AM
No what the game needs to do is fix melee combat in the game (cumulative to hit bonuses and all) and add Cleric Domains and more spells to the game and also to remove repair people from the game to facilitate some more wear on weapons.

I would in fact argue that melee in DDO is consdierably overpowered from their pen and paper counterparts in DDO.

The problem is not that melee types in this game dont have enough DPS, the problem is they have entirely high to hits and damage.

Guess what, other than barbarians and arguably rangers the only need for DPS from a melee is to hold agro. Of ocurse every fighter out there wants to be the leetsauce uber killer guy...... I would take a fighter that knew how to hit stunning blow and intimidate over a fighter with great dps 10 out of 10 times.
Sure, and while we're at it lets also go back to spell slots per rest & make meta magics work like they do in P&P.....

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 04:32 AM
The fact that these grouping dynamics are present in DDO is simply a testament of the poor design of the game.

It's not a testament to bad game design, it's a testament to human nature. Nothing you do could ever change it.


Everyone can build a caster or cleric if they want.

That's a "fake" solution too.

It's not that the system is unfair to certain people. No one's suggesting that (or at least, I'm not). It's not that the guy who plays paladins got the short end of the stick cause wizards are more uber.

In fact, what you're offering as a "solution" is actually another problem/reason the game needs to be more balance. Yes everyone can make 7-9 characters per server. But everyone shouldn't have to make an arcane caster or cleric to have the best character.

Characters of all types should be relatively balanced with each other. Partly due to the fact that every should be playing characters of every type. I mean who wants to make 9 casters?

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 04:57 AM
Sure, and while we're at it lets also go back to spell slots per rest & make meta magics work like they do in P&P.....

Sure as long as we can rest every 6-8 encounters (which is what the pen and paper is designed for)

gpk
12-11-2007, 04:59 AM
Sure as long as we can rest every 6-8 encounters (which is what the pen and paper is designed for)

Sure and let's not forget about the wandering monsters interrupting your rest etc etc.

wizzy_catt
12-11-2007, 05:04 AM
Sure and let's not forget about the wandering monsters interrupting your rest etc etc.
make a barrier for shrine area so no mobs can interrupt rest?

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 05:33 AM
Sure and let's not forget about the wandering monsters interrupting your rest etc etc.

And now we have uses for more spells like Alarm, Secure Shelter and I am sure many others I am missing.... too tired to go look.

Pyromaniac
12-11-2007, 05:35 AM
I think its a little late for rebalancing, how many subscribers are going to quit when....

-Their melees lose all their insta-kill super gear
-Melee attack speeds come back to normal levels
-Feats like toughness go back to +3 hp only not +100 hp
-Casters can cast x spells per day only
-Everyone gives up their gear that is super powered, masterworks at lvl 1-2 anyone?

smatt
12-11-2007, 05:48 AM
Alot of the "suggestions" here though would not create "balance" in DDO either. This entire thread is nothing but a thinly veiled rant to nerf casters and clerics, relegate the clerics to "Please heal my ub3r f1g4ter" and "hey caster/bard please buff my uber fighter."


Actually ,yes you're right it is :) Well not clerics, although if there was a true "fix" to the over-powerign of casters, it would indeed give the healers a whack as well. Now about all this cost of being a cleric.. Not sure who you run with Vanash :) But I know the people I run with, when we do even run with a cleric, gladly supply all the heal/raise dead scrolls a cleric could ever use. In fact I probably supply clerics with enough to run with many bad pugs after they get done running in our groups :). Just because there's so many cheap bastards out there, doesn't mean we're all cheap bastards :)

I think this is really about the fact that all classes, except for Sorcs and Wizzys are really just glorified door men at level cap. All those using comparisions to PnP, well thsi isn't PnP, no tin any way shape or form, except by name, and idea base. It can't be and won't ever be. I use the the comparision of the limit on casters in PnP only, as a referance to how PnP attempts to use SOME balance to make it even worth while to have a melee in a group. At this point, at level cap it's not really all that worth while to ever have a melee in group, except in that rare quest where FW doesn't work or there's no convienant mana fountain/ other way to replenish mana quikly. Rogues, well nobody ever wants a rogue around, although the expected fix to traps, making them far more damaging to jsut runt hrough might give the rogue class a bit more love. Pali's well, not sure what they're for in DDO, basically a nerfed tank that can heal a bit I guess. Barbs, kill machines, but mana/scroll sinks on the healing end for the clerics. Bards are grat, although not many play them they can be a highly effective toon to play all around, still relevent..... But again we return to, why bother playing anythign else besides a caster? Why even have anything but a caster in your group? Except in the rare quest where you have to get that trap disabled, or unlock something or other (Oops, here comes that Wizzy rogue high bred) ther eis abosolutely no reason to have anyhting but a caster, nuker hot air balloon headed, real life size challenged who's compensating, blow hard of a caster in your group.

Now all that being said, the fixes that woudl be realistic are hard to nail down...... The onyl way I can see it would be quest design, but then you run into the problem of havign to put together a blancd group that could complete the quest. Taht in itself would create a boring sit around and wait game. There has to be a way to limit the as of now UNLIMITED casting ability of the nukers..... Yes, melees have unlimited swinging ability, againt USUALLY a single foe, whereas a nuker, well that shouldn't even have to be explained.

Yep, they need to, or SHOULD nerf casters mana pools in some way shape or form :)

smatt
12-11-2007, 05:59 AM
No what the game needs to do is fix melee combat in the game (cumulative to hit bonuses and all) and add Cleric Domains and more spells to the game and also to remove repair people from the game to facilitate some more wear on weapons.

I would in fact argue that melee in DDO is consdierably overpowered from their pen and paper counterparts in DDO.

The problem is not that melee types in this game dont have enough DPS, the problem is they have entirely high to hits and damage.

Guess what, other than barbarians and arguably rangers the only need for DPS from a melee is to hold agro. Of ocurse every fighter out there wants to be the leetsauce uber killer guy...... I would take a fighter that knew how to hit stunning blow and intimidate over a fighter with great dps 10 out of 10 times.


Ha ha, just as castes have way to much DPS ptential with their AOE spells, let alone their insta kill spells. Every class is over-powered as compared their PnP counterparts. But with casters it's exponantial...... Kill counts, I could really careless about kill counts. At least the way I play a tank, is to keep agro until the casters can kill them for the most part. I have no problem with casters doing a good portion of the killing. The problem is that at cap, there's really no reason to have any other class in a group at this point. Easiest way to solve that problem... Limit the mana fountains in some way shape or form......

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:01 AM
A cleric or caster should not have to depend on scrolls or mnemonics to get a quest done.

If you want to move it away from a D&D discussion and into a more general MMO type discussion we can do that..... but I do not think you would like the result as in most MMO's melee (with the exception of scouts) have actually horrible DPS, but they have alot of survivability and great defense. Catsers and scouts tend to have great dps in those games, so be careful what you wish for.

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:01 AM
Well if you are going to be critical, technically any attempt at a balance is going to be a nerf one way or another. If melee was made more powerful that would be a nerf to casters. If casters were made weaker somehow through whatever means (I.e Capped Metamagic & various other ideas in this thread), that's a nerf. If mobs are adjusted with whatever means (i.e SR, immunities), thats going to be a nerf to casters. These examples can go on.. my point is, a balance by its very nature means that something/someone has to 'lose out' by something/someone else becoming better so that they become balanced. There are some good points and some reasonable ideas raised in my opinion, i know you don't agree, but i fail to see how any idea raised in this thread will be to your liking given the nature of a balance.


Exactly, that's why I really dislike the term nerf..... It implies DOOOOOOOMMMMM :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:05 AM
Ha ha, just as castes have way to much DPS ptential with their AOE spells, let alone their insta kill spells. Every class is over-powered as compared their PnP counterparts. But with casters it's exponantial...... Kill counts, I could really careless about kill counts. At least the way I play a tank, is to keep agro until the casters can kill them for the most part. I have no problem with casters doing a good portion of the killing. The problem is that at cap, there's really no reason to have any other class in a group at this point. Easiest way to solve that problem... Limit the mana fountains in some way shape or form......

I dont really play casters save clerics.

That being said, the issue here is not how much power that casters have but that fighters were supreme back in Mods 1-4 (arguably 4) and now are relegated to the same status as casters were back then, yeah they are useful, but they are not the be all like melee were.

In a world of Might and a world of Magic, in the end Magic always wins. It has to be that way otherwise there would be no use in having caster classes.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:06 AM
Exactly, that's why I really dislike the term nerf..... It implies DOOOOOOOMMMMM :)

I dont know, I am starting to see balance now between melee and magic finally after almost 2 years into the game....

gpk
12-11-2007, 06:09 AM
I dont know, I am starting to see balance now between melee and magic finally after almost 2 years into the game....

Wow you can't really mean that? The closest thing we had to balance between some melee classes and casters was in mod4, and casters were already quite a bit stronger. Mod5 quickly took care of that.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:15 AM
Wow you can't really mean that? The closest thing we had to balance between some melee classes and casters was in mod4, and casters were already quite a bit stronger. Mod5 quickly took care of that.

I do mean it, fighters are just gear dependent on it (such as how many of the examples in here for casters are gear dependent)

Are you going to tell me that a fighter with great cleave and a +2 ghost touch great axe of disruption is anywhere near ineffective against undead? Please.

Constructs, dont worry the fighters have smiters. Undead, the fighters have disruptors, Elementals and mephits, the fighters have banishers, or w/p or enfeebling weapons or whatever.

I see alot of people here complaining, and that is fine and all, but lets be real about things, fighters can very well still be the cats meow in this game, and if you dont think fighters (and rangers, pallies, and barbs) are then I would advise looking for new melee people to run with.

This reminds me of when people complain about how "weak" rogues are in groups...... :rolleyes: I wish there were more rogues that knew how to melee on servers.

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:15 AM
I dont really play casters save clerics.

That being said, the issue here is not how much power that casters have but that fighters were supreme back in Mods 1-4 (arguably 4) and now are relegated to the same status as casters were back then, yeah they are useful, but they are not the be all like melee were.

In a world of Might and a world of Magic, in the end Magic always wins. It has to be that way otherwise there would be no use in having caster classes.


Ahhh, but you just hit a point there... You see in PnP at least they found a way to balance things. Yes, magic will always win out, that is until you run out..... :) Casters even at low levels may not rule the kill count but in fact domake the questing faster and easier (hypno anyone). I simnply am of the opinion that with unlimited mana options there is really no reason to have ANY class within a party with the exception to caster/clerics, except for the goodwill of saidclasses. Taht's a poor game design, and it does need to be addressed in some way shape or form. Perhaps, with MOd 6 and the advent of REAL SR, there might some kind of fix in the near future. I'm not AGAINST any class, I'm FOR all classes, but at this point, there is little need for any class, except perhaps in the odd quest or 2.

Mercules
12-11-2007, 06:18 AM
Yep, they need to, or SHOULD nerf casters mana pools in some way shape or form :)

Previous to level cap there are a lot of times when casting classes need to monitor their SPs. They stretch them out between shrines. Now I admit this doesn't happen if they are rich enough to buy every mana pot they wish off the AH, but those are actually rare. Yes Sorcerers can have a huge amount of SPs, but they do go away fairly quick if the Sorcerers kill everything personally. In tandem with melee is how they can kill everything, until they hit level cap and can just pop out of the quest and right back in with full SPs. 20% hit on XP is a big deal... until you no longer earn XP.

Casters in general are FINALLY reaching the point where they are balanced with melee, as long as they don't have access to endless SPs. The problem is we are artificially inflating their SPs through our own actions. If you are not capped or rich you don't have too many SPs. Trust me.

Serpent
12-11-2007, 06:19 AM
I dont know, I am starting to see balance now between melee and magic finally after almost 2 years into the game....

Go play a melee then go play a sorc/wiz then get back to me. Until then a person who only plays cleric can't even begin to chime in on the whole range of the subject. Not trying to be mean., but you have said nothing constructive except that you don't want any changes to occur. It's an MMO, change is inherent in the system. PnP may have more powerful casters (which is being addressed) , but this is not PnP and does not involve only a group of 5 with a DM. A player base as we have, that wants multiple things to do and whats to play different characters, needs a variety. That variety needs to be able to accomplish relatively the same outcomes. Under what we have and were it could possibly go that is being left behind. A group should never require a caster, just as a group should never require a melee. Heck 6 bards or 6 rangers or 6 rogues should be able to complete any quest. This is not the reality right now. Six casters can though. that is not good.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:25 AM
Go play a melee then go play a sorc/wiz then get back to me. Until then a person who only plays cleric can't even begin to chime in on the whole range of the subject. Not trying to be mean., but you have said nothing constructive except that you don't want any changes to occur. It's an MMO, change is inherent in the system. PnP may have more powerful casters (which is being addressed) , but this is not PnP and does not involve only a group of 5 with a DM. A player base as we have, that wants multiple things to do and whats to play different characters, needs a variety. That variety needs to be able to accomplish relatively the same outcomes. Under what we have and were it could possibly go that is being left behind. A group should never require a caster, just as a group should never require a melee. Heck 6 bards or 6 rangers or 6 rogues should be able to complete any quest. This is not the reality right now. Six casters can though. that is not good.

Well I do have a high fighter but the finger wiggling just doesnt do it for me so I wont get a caster to cap.

If you want to make it an argument that this is an MMO please point me to any MMO where tank classes have better DPS than a caster class, any mainstream MMO.
I have or have had accounts in WOW, EQ2, EQ, and CoX in addition to this one...... in none of these "MMO's" did melee classes (save melee classes that were dps and hence had little survivability and no ability to tank) even come close to the DPS of casters.

So for the sake of this argument, do you want to argue this is D&D or that this is an MMO, quit switching between the 2 people.

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:26 AM
I do mean it, fighters are just gear dependent on it (such as how many of the examples in here for casters are gear dependent)

Are you going to tell me that a fighter with great cleave and a +2 ghost touch great axe of disruption is anywhere near ineffective against undead? Please.

Constructs, dont worry the fighters have smiters. Undead, the fighters have disruptors, Elementals and mephits, the fighters have banishers, or w/p or enfeebling weapons or whatever.

I see alot of people here complaining, and that is fine and all, but lets be real about things, fighters can very well still be the cats meow in this game, and if you dont think fighters (and rangers, pallies, and barbs) are then I would advise looking for new melee people to run with.

This reminds me of when people complain about how "weak" rogues are in groups...... :rolleyes: I wish there were more rogues that knew how to melee on servers.

Oh dear.. Please you go out and try to disrupt a CR 17 or higher undead, or for that matter smite a CR 15 or higher construct...... Ya, you'll do it..... But after you take a **** load of hp damage. About 90% of the time we run without a cleric.. Why????? Because none is needed, nuker is killing everything.... As soon as that doesn't happen, sudenly a cleric becomes absolutely neccesary. Yep, I play a UMD tank, I can kill, I can heal, I can rez, I an open all locks, although high level traps are out. That's what makes me effective at this point, I play door man, and I rez the dead caster :) That's about it. Sure I can do solo stuff, very carefully and very slowly. I'm not trying to call out the nerf bug.. Oh dear whatever shall the balloon heads do if they didn't have unlimited casting ability :) It is realyl up to the Devs and how they want the game to play out. If they indeed want it to be a caster only game, then things will stay the same. If they want it to be a game where multiple classes are relevant , well then they'll figure out a way to limit the mana pools/casting ability or continue down the same path they are now. No matter really it is what it is.....

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 06:27 AM
So for the sake of this argument, do you want to argue this is D&D or that this is an MMO, quit switching between the 2 people.

It's both.

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:31 AM
Previous to level cap there are a lot of times when casting classes need to monitor their SPs. They stretch them out between shrines. Now I admit this doesn't happen if they are rich enough to buy every mana pot they wish off the AH, but those are actually rare. Yes Sorcerers can have a huge amount of SPs, but they do go away fairly quick if the Sorcerers kill everything personally. In tandem with melee is how they can kill everything, until they hit level cap and can just pop out of the quest and right back in with full SPs. 20% hit on XP is a big deal... until you no longer earn XP.

Casters in general are FINALLY reaching the point where they are balanced with melee, as long as they don't have access to endless SPs. The problem is we are artificially inflating their SPs through our own actions. If you are not capped or rich you don't have too many SPs. Trust me.

Oh I know, but really how long does it take to cap???? Oh dear a nuker canonly nuke so much, and then lays back and lets another class do SOMETHING :) That's how it should coninue through-out. I'm not advocating the whole sale destruction of casters, I'm also not saying that casters shouldn't be the msot powerful kill machines in the game, they certainly are in PnP. But the problems is they're unlimited... They can kill with little worries, far too fast, far too much far too often. I agree that until cap, it far less of a problem. Casters do have to be carefull about their mana.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:32 AM
It's both.

Well thats convenient for yall in this argument, when something goes your way, it is D&D, and when something doesnt, well it is an MMO. Thanks for making this a more logical debate :rolleyes:

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:34 AM
Oh I know, but really how long does it take to cap???? Oh dear a nuker canonly nuke so much, and then lays back and lets another class do SOMETHING :) That's how it should coninue through-out. I'm not advocating the whole sale destruction of casters, I'm also not saying that casters shouldn't be the msot powerful kill machines in the game, they certainly are in PnP. But the problems is they're unlimited... They can kill with little worries, far too fast, far too much far too often. I agree that until cap, it far less of a problem. Casters do have to be carefull about their mana.

Wait a second, your complaint is that at level cap casters have unlimited killing capability like melee do from the get go???

Please tell me this is not your complaint?

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:37 AM
Oh dear.. Please you go out and try to disrupt a CR 17 or higher undead, or for that matter smite a CR 15 or higher construct...... Ya, you'll do it..... But after you take a **** load of hp damage. About 90% of the time we run without a cleric.. Why????? Because none is needed, nuker is killing everything.... As soon as that doesn't happen, sudenly a cleric becomes absolutely neccesary. Yep, I play a UMD tank, I can kill, I can heal, I can rez, I an open all locks, although high level traps are out. That's what makes me effective at this point, I play door man, and I rez the dead caster :) That's about it. Sure I can do solo stuff, very carefully and very slowly. I'm not trying to call out the nerf bug.. Oh dear whatever shall the balloon heads do if they didn't have unlimited casting ability :) It is realyl up to the Devs and how they want the game to play out. If they indeed want it to be a caster only game, then things will stay the same. If they want it to be a game where multiple classes are relevant , well then they'll figure out a way to limit the mana pools/casting ability or continue down the same path they are now. No matter really it is what it is.....

I disrupt CR 17 and higher undead all the time. I on the other hand do not use smiters, too many construct bane weapons for that stuff.

If you think melee classes are irrelevant, may I advise the builds section of the forums???? There are many builds to be had there that make sure melee are anything but irrelevant.

GrayOldDruid
12-11-2007, 06:38 AM
whatever shall the balloon heads do if they didn't have unlimited casting ability

Yeah, like melee is limited by anything... "oh, my finger is sore from tapping the attack key..."

Casters are limited by Spell Points - and they do run low and run out... not often, but you would see a lot more spells flying if there were unlimited mana... AND, casters ARE equipment dependent as well. Greater potency item REQUIRED, Evocation/illusion/necromancy item, Power or Wizardry or Magi item to get those spell points.... spell penetration item... but, dang, can only hold two....

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:41 AM
Wait a second, your complaint is that at level cap casters have unlimited killing capability like melee do from the get go???

Please tell me this is not your complaint?


Ummm, yes it is is really... A melee can kill 1 at a time, very slowly while taking a rather bit of damage, as a cleric you should know this :). Whereas, a caster can kill MANY MANY MANY at a time while given a bit of Mario bors action, while barely getting hit. Again, I'm not saying that casters shouldn't be the high level kill machines that they are. I'm simply saying that, in game now with unlimited mana, they are the only truly relevant class. And that's a bad thing..... Melees are limited by the fact that without buffs, and without massive healing they just aren't going to get thorugh things in a reasonable amount of time, casters have no such limitation.

Mercules
12-11-2007, 06:42 AM
Oh I know, but really how long does it take to cap???? Oh dear a nuker canonly nuke so much, and then lays back and lets another class do SOMETHING :) That's how it should coninue through-out. I'm not advocating the whole sale destruction of casters, I'm also not saying that casters shouldn't be the msot powerful kill machines in the game, they certainly are in PnP. But the problems is they're unlimited... They can kill with little worries, far too fast, far too much far too often. I agree that until cap, it far less of a problem. Casters do have to be carefull about their mana.

It takes as long as you take to cap. I have no "capped" characters because once I approach cap, I stop playing them. The whole dynamic of the game changes once you are capped and it becomes no fun. We shouldn't ruin the rest of the game because play and tactics change when you hit the ceiling. That ceiling will move someday.

Lets not get hasty with the whole, "We need to drop their SPs." Limit access to unending SPs, yes, drop, no.

What is really scary is I heard this same argument months ago only the terms caster and melee were switched around. Then it was 6 melee can do any quest, why bring casters? We have clickies and potions for Haste. Much of the time it was 5 melee and a Cleric that were running the quests. Now it is 5 arcanes and a Cleric?:)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:42 AM
Yeah, like melee is limited by anything... "oh, my finger is sore from tapping the attack key..."

Casters are limited by Spell Points - and they do run low and run out... not often, but you would see a lot more spells flying if there were unlimited mana... AND, casters ARE equipment dependent as well. Greater potency item REQUIRED, Evocation/illusion/necromancy item, Power or Wizardry or Magi item to get those spell points.... spell penetration item... but, dang, can only hold two....

Hold up Oh Druidly one.

Do not please do not allow something like logic to egt in the way of a melee's rant.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:43 AM
Ummm, yes it is is really... A melee can kill 1 at a time, very slowly while taking a rather bit of damage, as a cleric you should know this :). Whereas, a caster can kill MANY MANY MANY at a time while given a bit of Mario bors action, while barely getting hit. Again, I'm not saying that casters shouldn't be the high level kill machines that they are. I'm simply saying that, in game now with unlimited mana, they are the only truly relevant class. And that's a bad thing..... Melees are limited by the fact that without buffs, and without massive healing they just aren't going to get thorugh things in a reasonable amount of time, casters have no such limitation.

If your melee character is taking a ton of damage, there is somethign wrong with your build, or your group.

/edit
(am I the only cleric that runs around with a caster and a bard in group anymore or what????)

Mercules
12-11-2007, 06:44 AM
Melees are limited by the fact that without buffs, and without massive healing they just aren't going to get thorugh things in a reasonable amount of time, casters have no such limitation.

Um... reasonable amount of time? Why is that part of the argument? :p

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:46 AM
It takes as long as you take to cap. I have no "capped" characters because once I approach cap, I stop playing them. The whole dynamic of the game changes once you are capped and it becomes no fun. We shouldn't ruin the rest of the game because play and tactics change when you hit the ceiling. That ceiling will move someday.

Lets not get hasty with the whole, "We need to drop their SPs." Limit access to unending SPs, yes, drop, no.

What is really scary is I heard this same argument months ago only the terms caster and melee were switched around. Then it was 6 melee can do any quest, why bring casters? We have clickies and potions for Haste. Much of the time it was 5 melee and a Cleric that were running the quests. Now it is 5 arcanes and a Cleric?:)

Mercules has hit the complaint on the head right there, it isnt the fact that fighters are weaker or casters are stronger....

The problem is that you no longer need 3 or 4 fighters in every group to be effective,



(wait for it) Just like in D&D.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:46 AM
Um... reasonable amount of time? Why is that part of the argument? :p

loot/hour ratios, it is a melee thing. ;):eek::D:rolleyes:

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:47 AM
I disrupt CR 17 and higher undead all the time. I on the other hand do not use smiters, too many construct bane weapons for that stuff.

If you think melee classes are irrelevant, may I advise the builds section of the forums???? There are many builds to be had there that make sure melee are anything but irrelevant.


Um, I build just fine thank you, sure we can get into the chest puffing **** and critic you're super uberness..... :) This isn't aobu thta though really..... Unlimited mana at a fingers touch, and the ability to dish out 300 points of damage to MULTIPLE targets,a nd need or relevance for ANY OTHER class except for castes is the discussion. And yes, I disrupt them as well.. AFTER taking damage myself, sometimes you get them early soemtimes not.. And I have every darend greater bane weapon in the game as well :) I'm nto trying to get into a ****ing match here.. Nor am I trying to get into the I'm better at this or that BS match. I don't really care how special any one super uber is :) Or hwo they impress themselves so much. I care about the AVERAGE everyday player, the peopel who can play a lot, or in general take to playing MMOs very well, are always goign to be OK. But I would argue that's not the average player at all.

gpk
12-11-2007, 06:48 AM
Greater potency item REQUIRED, Evocation/illusion/necromancy item, Power or Wizardry or Magi item to get those spell points.... spell penetration item... but, dang, can only hold two....

Greater Potency: many in Shop, more in Auction House, all cheap
Spell Penetration Item: tons in shop, tons in the auction house, named Robe of Magi surprising amoutns in the Auction House, all cheap

Magi Items? Gasp theyre so common and cheap I won't even common further.

Evocation/illusion/necromancy item are all Auction hosue and Junk Fodder.
Then there's the very easy Reaver Raid with the very common Reaver Napkin raid loot, compare that to a chattering ring, a Sword of Shadow, dragon/titan belt, Seal of the Earth..

Can only hold 2? Do you hold Magi items after you've spent the SP? Ever looked at the auction house cheap Pop6-8 are for sale?

Then there's Skiver, there are a surprising amount of ppl holding one since Mod5...

gpk
12-11-2007, 06:52 AM
If your melee character is taking a ton of damage, there is somethign wrong with your build, or your group.

/edit
(am I the only cleric that runs around with a caster and a bard in group anymore or what????)

LOL wow!

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:52 AM
Um, I build just fine thank you, sure we can get into the chest puffing **** and critic you're super uberness..... :) This isn't aobu thta though really..... Unlimited mana at a fingers touch, and the ability to dish out 300 points of damage to MULTIPLE targets,a nd need or relevance for ANY OTHER class except for castes is the discussion. And yes, I disrupt them as well.. AFTER taking damage myself, sometimes you get them early soemtimes not.. And I have every darend greater bane weapon in the game as well :) I'm nto trying to get into a ****ing match here.. Nor am I trying to get into the I'm better at this or that BS match. I don't really care how special any one super uber is :) Or hwo they impress themselves so much. I care about the AVERAGE everyday player, the peopel who can play a lot, or in general take to playing MMOs very well, are always goign to be OK. But I would argue that's not the average player at all.

I am but a humble lowly cleric (it is even in my clerics bios so it must be true) serving Stormreach........

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:54 AM
LOL wow!

The truth can be so burdensome at times, I understand. That is why there are those of us that are of the Silver Flame, to show the peasant rabble the way out of the darkness and into the light.

Serpent
12-11-2007, 06:55 AM
The problem is that you no longer need 3 or 4 fighters in every group to be effective,



(wait for it) Just like in D&D.

Ah yes but in PnP when you hit level 12-14 you don't suddenly switch to a caster. The group stays together. This is not PnP stop comparing.

Also this style of MMO is new and as a player who has played the others I hope it will improve on existing designs. Casters are powerful, and they for some silly reason made them more powerful, that was unnecessary.

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:56 AM
It takes as long as you take to cap. I have no "capped" characters because once I approach cap, I stop playing them. The whole dynamic of the game changes once you are capped and it becomes no fun. We shouldn't ruin the rest of the game because play and tactics change when you hit the ceiling. That ceiling will move someday.

Lets not get hasty with the whole, "We need to drop their SPs." Limit access to unending SPs, yes, drop, no.

What is really scary is I heard this same argument months ago only the terms caster and melee were switched around. Then it was 6 melee can do any quest, why bring casters? We have clickies and potions for Haste. Much of the time it was 5 melee and a Cleric that were running the quests. Now it is 5 arcanes and a Cleric?:)


Hmm, well you're right there, about the dynamic changing.... As for the "why bring a caster thing.." Well not sure who you were playing with. Although, I'm a noob and have only playing the game for a little over a year. I don't ever recall not wanting a caster inmy party, ion fact 2 is better then one. The only untouchables seem to have been bards and rogues. BUT I have always made room for both in any group I was forming.

As I've said, I've thought about this, and I haven't been able to, up to this point come up with a way to solve the problem, so don't come off with this "You just hate casters and want to nerf us" stuff. Again, that's why I hate that "nerf" word. I'm not advoctating nerfing of anything... I'm advocating a more balanced game that at high levels keeps ALL classes relavant. That's all.....

Identifying that there is a problem is the easy part, solving it is where it gets dicey :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:59 AM
Hmm, well you're right there,l about the dynamic changing.... As for the why bring a caster thing.. Well not sure who you were playing with.. Although I'm a noob and have only playing the game for a little over a year. I don't ever recall not wanting a caster inmy party, ion fact 2 is better then one. The only untouchables seem to have been bards and rogues. BUT I have always made room for both in any group I was forming.

As I've said, I've thought about this, and I haven't been able to, up to this point come up with a way to solve the problem, so don't come off with this "You just hate casters and want to nerf us" stuff. Again, that's why I hate that "nerf" word. I'm not advoctating nerfing of anything... I'm advocating a more balanced game that at high levels keeps ALL classes relavant. That's all.....

Identifying that there is a problem is the easy part, solving it is where it gets dicey :)

Yet you have not identified the problem yet........all I have seen are symptoms.

smatt
12-11-2007, 06:59 AM
If your melee character is taking a ton of damage, there is somethign wrong with your build, or your group.

/edit
(am I the only cleric that runs around with a caster and a bard in group anymore or what????)

Ha ha, well somebody has to be able to rez the dead zerging clerics and casters :) I defy any tank build 60 uber ac or not to step out and go toe to toe with the likes of cr 17 ogres or trolls and not take damage. Again, you want to get into a build arguement.... More chest puffing ... LOLOLOLOLOL

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:01 AM
Yet you have not identified the problem yet........all I have seen are symptoms.


Problem = Unlimtied casting ability (IE ability of nukers to nuke at will) Irrelevance of all classes but casters at high levels.... :D

Serpent
12-11-2007, 07:02 AM
Yet you have not identified the problem yet........all I have seen are symptoms.

Then what are the problems? You are unconvinced by others arguments. So what would you do?

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:02 AM
The truth can be so burdensome at times, I understand. That is why there are those of us that are of the Silver Flame, to show the peasant rabble the way out of the darkness and into the light.

It's come down to this has it? LMAO thanks for showing us all the truth and the way to light.

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:08 AM
Then what are the problems? You are unconvinced by others arguments. So what would you do?


Ahhh the answer appears to be.. Let the nukes as well as the nuker clerics rule everything,and relegate all others to door openers. :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:09 AM
Problem = Unlimtied casting ability (IE ability of nukers to nuke at will) Irrelevance of all classes but casters at high levels.... :D

Like the unilimited ability for fighters to melee???

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:10 AM
Like the unilimited ability for fighters to melee???


ONE AT A TME AND VERY SLOWLY :) In the meanitme the other 20 nastys are beating on you.... :(

And then Mr/Mrs uber cleric is crying.. scrolls only...... LOLOLOL :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:16 AM
Then what are the problems? You are unconvinced by others arguments. So what would you do?

1. I would lower to hit bonuses to +1-+3, instead of +0,+0, +5, +10 (and soon) +15.

This would make melee more attractive for non melee classes and bring AC back into relevance for fighters.

2. I would eliminate the ability to reenter quests entirely once you recall out without the quest resetting.

I would also increase spell caster spell points though (at least base sp)

3. I would add in many more feats and enhancements (especially enhancements) for all classes.

4. I would get rid of the blanket immunities to sneak attack damage that undead and constructs have.

5. I would take out every gear repair vendor in the game and let that be a function of magic again. (also would help with game economy)

6. I would make Dex fighting much more attarctive (how is up for debate)

I could list things all day but I do not think people care.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:17 AM
ONE AT A TME AND VERY SLOWLY :) In the meanitme the other 20 nastys are beating on you.... :(

And then Mr/Mrs uber cleric is crying.. scrolls only...... LOLOLOL :)

I havent seen melee have this very slowly problem...... unless you are talking red and purple named mobs. (unless you think 2-3 rounds is very slowly)

Serpent
12-11-2007, 07:23 AM
Like the unilimited ability for fighters to melee???

lmao. Everyone has that ability. They might not hit as often but they have that ability.

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:24 AM
I havent seen melee have this very slowly problem...... unless you are talking red and purple named mobs. (unless you think 2-3 rounds is very slowly)


Lets face it here.. you arent' seeing a problem, so why even bother answering... To you there is no problem... :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:24 AM
lmao. Everyone has that ability. They might not hit as often but they have that ability.

well with UMD every melee has the ability to cast but we are talking about effective things are we not?

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:26 AM
well with UMD every melee has the ability to cast but we are talking about effective things are we not?


Ahh, exactly... Well except for the rez tossed to the cleric who got in the way trying to rez the caster who didn't wait for the door man to show up :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:26 AM
Lets face it here.. you arent' seeing a problem, so why even bother answering... To you there is no problem... :)

I never said there are no problems in the DDO combat mechanics, there are LOTS of problems....

I dont think this cry to nerf casters and clerics is the problem though.

This has always been a melee problem since jump off (head start and earlier). It is where the inflation started and until the ROOT issue can be solved everything else goes to the wayside.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:27 AM
Ahh, exactly... Well except for the rez tossed to the cleric who got in the way trying to rez the caster who didn't wait for the door man to show up :)

(Personally I would tell the caster to grab a Snickers cause he aint going anywhere for a while)

but thats me.

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:27 AM
This has always been a melee problem since jump off (head start and earlier). It is where the inflation started and until the
ROOT issue can be solved everything else goes to the wayside.

Somene asked you before, pelase elaborate and enlighten us.

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:30 AM
I never said there are no problems in the DDO combat mechanics, there are LOTS of problems....

I dont think this cry to nerf casters and clerics is the problem though.

This has always been a melee problem since jump off (head start and earlier). It is where the inflation started and until the ROOT issue can be solved everything else goes to the wayside.


Hmm, well I doubt that a complete rebuilding is in the cards really. Again you go with NERF, instead of LIMIT.... Now = unlimited mana = unlimited killing ability VERY QUIKLY. There is no way a melee can even come close to the kill speed of a offensive cleric or a caster, as it should be. BUT the limit on a melee is that it takes a lot longer (happy now) then it does a caster, and THAT is the limit. Faced with large mobs, a melee stands no chance, and will take far more damage whereas a caster can nuke many at once, again as it shold be. BUT with unlimited mana, there is NO limit on a caster... Therefor ANY class within a party at high level other than a cleric or caster is in fact a hinderance mroe than anything.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:32 AM
Hmm, well I doubt that a complete rebuilding is in the cards really. Again you go with NERF, instead of LIMIT.... Now = unlimited mana = unlimited killing ability VERY QUIKLY. There is no way a melee can even come close to the kill speed of a offensive cleric or a caster, as it should be. BUT the limit on a melee is taht it takes a lot longer (happy now) then it does a caster, and THAT is the limit. Faced with large mobs a melee stands no chance, whereas a caster can nuke many at once, again as it shold be. BUT with unlimited mana, there is NO limit on a caster...

which is why I would in fact make it so if you leave a quest, that quest is done.

Serpent
12-11-2007, 07:32 AM
1. I would lower to hit bonuses to +1-+3, instead of +0,+0, +5, +10 (and soon) +15.

This would make melee more attractive for non melee classes and bring AC back into relevance for fighters.

I have advocated that same thing. Codog ditched the +15, BTW


2. I would eliminate the ability to reenter quests entirely once you recall out without the quest resetting.

I would also increase spell caster spell points though (at least base sp)

That is a very good idea. Implementation is hard to see but I agree and have said the same before.


3. I would add in many more feats and enhancements (especially enhancements) for all classes.

Yep I want the same thing. Feats are lacking currently.


4. I would get rid of the blanket immunities to sneak attack damage that undead and constructs have.

I disagree. Sneak attack is the rogue ability to discern anatomy to place the right hit to deal more. These creatures do not have that. We could change the definition of sneak attack but since crits don't work either (same principle) and constructs and undead have many immunities above and beyond alive creatures, I think they are just fine. Undead imo should be immune to cold and maybe take less damage from other elements.


5. I would take out every gear repair vendor in the game and let that be a function of magic again. (also would help with game economy)

Sure why not. not sure how to implement but that would involve the use of crafting something we are all waiting for.


6. I would make Dex fighting much more attractive (how is up for debate)

It is attractive, with dex fighting comes AC. Now the inflated mobs take that away but if we regulate the mobs then we would not have that problem.


I could list things all day but I do not think people care.

Well I'm glad you voiced your opinion. I see we have some agreements in them. I would like to see a decrease in metamagics, its just to powerful. Note casters will still be powerful. A spell should never hit for 500 thats just way to out there.

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 07:34 AM
which is why I would in fact make it so if you leave a quest, that quest is done.QFT, we are in 100&#37; agreement here. See we can see eye to eye on something:D

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:34 AM
Somene asked you before, pelase elaborate and enlighten us.

The increasing melee bonuses has caused turbine to increase enemy HP (by factors) making casters pointless until mid game where they suddenly become super powerful..... thanks to a few broken mechanics.

I can remember playing D&D and with a 5th level wizard casting fireball and wiping stuff out.... here yeah you would be picking yourself up off the floor with all the agro and the little damage you would do (until end game)

It just continues to get worse and worse until finally something will be done about it.

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:35 AM
which is why I would in fact make it so if you leave a quest, that quest is done.


OK, now there's a possibilty.... That would in fact limit the now unlimited mana.. So you are in fact agreeing that unlimited mana is a problem :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:36 AM
Well I'm glad you voiced your opinion. I see we have some agreements in them. I would like to see a decrease in metamagics, its just to powerful. Note casters will still be powerful. A spell should never hit for 500 thats jsut way to out there.


But then again the creatures we are fighting should not have 1000's of HP either (save bosses maybe because this is an MMO)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:39 AM
OK, now there's a possibilty.... That would in fact limit the now unlimited mana.. So you are in fact agreeing that unlimited mana is a problem :)

I do not believe consumables such as mnemonics are a problem, that being said the ability to go out of a quest heal up and come back in is a problem.

I believe if you have to recall from a quest, the quest is broken.

Once you have "failed" a quest (have to recall out either because you died or ran out of SP) that quest should reset. No more clerics recalling to res a party, either try again or quit.

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 07:39 AM
But then again the creatures we are fighting should not have 1000's of HP either (save bosses maybe because this is an MMO)
Again I agree, would be nice to have a Rogues sneak attack once again be what it is supposed to be, a quick devestating attack on a creature.

Serpent
12-11-2007, 07:41 AM
But then again the creatures we are fighting should not have 1000's of HP either (save bosses maybe because this is an MMO)

LOL, remember this is Dominoes. You fix one thing it impacts all things. We change the metamagic to mod4 we lower hps. It effects across the board and i imagine turbine knows that or I hope. lower bonuses to hit it lowers mob AC. the lsit can go on and on but those two things right there up the cred of all rogues.

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:45 AM
The increasing melee bonuses has caused turbine to increase enemy HP (by factors) making casters pointless until mid game where they suddenly become super powerful..... thanks to a few broken mechanics.

I can remember playing D&D and with a 5th level wizard casting fireball and wiping stuff out.... here yeah you would be picking yourself up off the floor with all the agro and the little damage you would do (until end game)

It just continues to get worse and worse until finally something will be done about it.


Agreed here....

The problem is, recreating this gaem isn't in the cards, wholesale schanges to the melee system are a very complicaed issue considering the likelyhood of the massive amount of recode it would take though-out. There certainly are a lot of things that could be changed, but how much is realistic given the cost factor?

Of any of the ideas tossed out, I think the no re-entry makes the most sense.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:48 AM
Agreed here....

The problem is, recreating this gaem isn't in the cards, wholesale schanges to the melee system are a very complicaed issue considering the likelyhood of the massive amount of recode it would take though-out. There certainly are a lot of things that could be changed, but how much is realistic given the cost factor?

Of any of the ideas tossed out, I think the no re-entry makes the most sense.

Until later on when the next issue creeps up because the base problem has yet to be taken care of....

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:52 AM
I do not believe consumables such as mnemonics are a problem, that being said the ability to go out of a quest heal up and come back in is a problem.

I believe if you have to recall from a quest, the quest is broken.

Once you have "failed" a quest (have to recall out either because you died or ran out of SP) that quest should reset. No more clerics recalling to res a party, either try again or quit.


Sure Mnemonics are a problem.. well when they can be had so cheaply on the AH, you know that duping thing again :)

Again, I don't see a major revamp of the combat sytem in the cards. I see tweaks, and in the future adjustments and additions. BUT, your latest comments show that you do agree there's a problem with the over-powering of the nukers :)

Let's face it, this type of MMO isn't an easy thing to design and develope (expensive as well). Mistakes will be made, some can be fixed, some have to be smoothed over with adjustments in other areas. The added problem, si that DDO is based at least in part on D&D, it doesn't neccesarly have the freedom that (gasp) WoW or other **** games do. It creates a whole new dynamic to deal with, as well as picky ass D&D folks :cool:

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:53 AM
The increasing melee bonuses has caused turbine to increase enemy HP (by factors) making casters pointless until mid game where they suddenly become super powerful..... thanks to a few broken mechanics.

I can remember playing D&D and with a 5th level wizard casting fireball and wiping stuff out.... here yeah you would be picking yourself up off the floor with all the agro and the little damage you would do (until end game)
It just continues to get worse and worse until finally something will be done about it.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would argue that some of the problems you are describing were only really relevant in mod 1 and 2 (after Web got "fixed". Many of those problems were addresses before or by mod3. Thats a long time ago and yes they should have been addressed sooner.
Better spells such as blurs,displace better enhancements, more common spell boosting items etc. Playing a a Wiz/Sorc now is not the same as it once was. But again how much time do you spend being a level 5 wizard in DDO? How much time do you spend at end game? And if you're concerned about those lower levels how come you don't bring upthe fact the the mod5 metamagics hurt lower level casters?

So just because there were things that needed to be fixed back in mod 1-2, casters being boosted and paladins being nerfed some, does that mean the pendulum has to swing the other way when it's no longer needed or relevant? Did paladins need to be nerfed in mod4, mod5 and with enhancement costs after mod3? Did casters need to be doubled in power in mod5? They deserve it because back in Mod 1-2 they needed tweaking?
That kind of logic and reasoning is hurtful to DDO short and long term.
So we end up with much bigger imbalances than before (mod 5 metamagics) wich become exponentially more hurtful because it's later in the game and development updated are being spaced further apart with fewer changes, fixes and tweaks in between.

I'm just sad it's taken this long for people to rally behind the Balance "cause". But such is the nature of the game forums, people with legitimitae concerns and grievances are quickly berated and bombarded by some others.

smatt
12-11-2007, 07:57 AM
Until later on when the next issue creeps up because the base problem has yet to be taken care of....


OK, so who's going to toss out the HUGE amount of dough and time it would take to compeltely revamp the whoile game from the beggining.. Not realistic really.. Sure it would be nice... But....

I like the leave quest, quest done thing.... Taht and the fix of the dupping bug... Those 2 things would go a very long way to "patching" the problem. Make people "think" more... But then we get into the playability issue, sure the power gamers runth0rough stuff easily, but the non-power gamers, the casual players would have a problem with the closed quest set-up. Still hard to find that balance to please MOST people....

Mercules
12-11-2007, 07:57 AM
ONE AT A TME AND VERY SLOWLY :) In the meanitme the other 20 nastys are beating on you.... :(

And then Mr/Mrs uber cleric is crying.. scrolls only...... LOLOLOL :)

Well, you could maybe not run forward into a group of 20 mobs. Just a suggestion. If you are capped, and it is a time thing, and you can hop out and back in easily for SPs, then yes people are going to push the "easy" button and play a nuking Sorcerer.

If you are going through a normal quest, with normal characters looking for adventure and XP and maybe a lucky find on treasure then it is different. You don't need any particular class to get through anything, but having melee about is really helpful for the whole group when the SPs are low.

I can't believe it but this spring there was an outcry about how other than Firewall and Haste there was no reason to bring an arcane. There was an outcry by arcane casters stating they were tired of playing a hastebot, yes that term was used, who was asked to drop a cloudkill or firewall from time to time and that they would like to start using some of their other spells. So they shortened the duration on spells and people screamed bloody murder on how no one would be playing anything but melee, clerics, and the occasional buffbot arcane. Then they changed the meta-magic system and now people are screaming that no one will play anything but a caster now.

While I agree that Firewall(slated to be fixed by AI changes) is too powerful and endless SPs ruin the game, the endless SPs ruin the game for everyone. Melee just gets a Cleric to spam heal and recall for SPs. Casters just nuke and recall. Clerics, nuke, heal, and recall. This sucks any strategy there was out of the game, and most people didn't know much more strategy than "Charge them and kill the casters first." or "Pull them into the firewall where they will stupidly stay."

Stop recalling out and suddenly casters don't have too many SPs. Stop doing capped loot runs and suddenly people will play everything under the sun. Why are we all breaking the game and then asking Turbine to fix it? Stop breaking the game. :p

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:58 AM
Sure Mnemonics are a problem.. well when they can be had so cheaply on the AH, you know that duping thing again :)

Again, I don't see a major revamp of the combat sytem in the cards. I see tweaks, and in the future adjustments and additions. BUT, your latest comments show that you do agree there's a problem with the over-powering of the nukers :)

Let's face it, this type of MMO isn't an easy thing to design and develope (expensive as well). Mistakes will be made, some can be fixed, some have to be smoothed over with adjustments in other areas. The added problem, si that DDO is based at least in part on D&D, it doesn't neccesarly have the freedom that (gasp) WoW or other **** games do. It creates a whole new dynamic to deal with, as well as picky ass D&D folks :cool:

no there is a problem with over powered Player Characters in general........

Not just with casters, please do not presume to speak for me.

The problem started with the melee combat system, creating the need to over power mobs which made casters (spells) and rogue (sneak attack) and ranger (favored enemy damage) very much less effective.

The fixes to some of these issues have created what we have today, but this cannot be solved without fixing the underlieing problem, the base combat system.

EinarMal
12-11-2007, 08:00 AM
Base problems:

1. Enhancement system-This was tacked on and goes along way in creating all the inflation that we see in the game.
2. Increasing attack bonus and the way BAB is handled in the game
3. Stupid mob AI e.g. firewall problems allowing easy destruction of mobs who stand in it blindly
4. Allowing quest re-entry
5. Mass availability of consumables like mana pots, heal scrolls etc....

Miss anything?

Solutions?
1. Well the really unpopular one would be to scale these back to less overpowered options that do not overpower the feats and skills in the game (the best approach in my opinion). The problem now is that enhancements give more power than feats in many cases. Would require massive overhaul (again) of the system... The other option would be to just try and add more enhancements and maybe scale back a few others to better balance the races and classes. To me enhancements should just add some flavor to the character not be so overpowering. I think the Prc thing could still be made to work, make them expensive in the new scaled back system...

2. BAB should be about speed, remove scaling attack bonus and have BAB effect swing speed rather than increasing the bonus. Just use Base BAB to determine attack scaling with a flat bonus and an increase in speed at each BAB +5

3. They are working on this one I think, need to get better mob logic so they don't stand in these spells and attack a little smarter.

4. Easy...just fail a quest on recall (already in the game for some quests like lighthouse in harbor)

5. Remove consumable vendors from the game. For classes that need spells like wizards let the class trainers teach them spell for a small fee. They can still drop but would be much more valuable/rare. I would remove spell point pots from the game as there is no equivalent in PnP to drinking a potion to allow you to cast an extra spell a day!

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:00 AM
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would argue that some of the problems you are describing were only really relevant in mod 1 and 2 (after Web got "fixed". Many of those problems were addresses before or by mod3. Thats a long time ago and yes they should have been addressed sooner.
Better spells such as blurs,displace better enhancements, more common spell boosting items etc. Playing a a Wiz/Sorc now is not the same as it once was. But again how much time do you spend being a level 5 wizard in DDO? How much time do you spend at end game? And if you're concerned about those lower levels how come you don't bring upthe fact the the mod5 metamagics hurt lower level casters?

So just because there were things that needed to be fixed back in mod 1-2, casters being boosted and paladins being nerfed some, does that mean the pendulum has to swing the other way when it's no longer needed or relevant? Did paladins need to be nerfed in mod4, mod5 and with enhancement costs after mod3? Did casters need to be doubled in power in mod5? They deserve it because back in Mod 1-2 they needed tweaking?
That kind of logic and reasoning is hurtful to DDO short and long term.
So we end up with much bigger imbalances than before (mod 5 metamagics) wich become exponentially more hurtful because it's later in the game and development updated are being spaced further apart with fewer changes, fixes and tweaks in between.

I'm just sad it's taken this long for people to rally behind the Balance "cause". But such is the nature of the game forums, people with legitimitae concerns and grievances are quickly berated and bombarded by some others.

I have called for boosts to pallies and rogues for so long it is mindnumbing.

gpk
12-11-2007, 08:03 AM
I have called for boosts to pallies and rogues for so long it is mindnumbing.

Kudos, do you care to comment on the rest of my post?

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:03 AM
Base problems:

1. Enhancement system-This was tacked on and goes along way in creating all the inflation that we see in the game.
2. Increasing attack bonus and the way BAB is handled in the game
3. Stupid mob AI e.g. firewall problems allowing easy destruction of mobs who stand in it blindly
4. Allowing quest re-entry
5. Mass availability of consumables like mana pots, heal scrolls etc....

Miss anything?

Solutions?
1. Well the really unpopular one would be to scale these back to less overpowered options that do not overpower the feats and skills in the game (the best approach in my opinion). The problem now is that enhancements give more power than feats in many cases. Would require massive overhaul (again) of the system... The other option would be to just try and add more enhancements and maybe scale back a few others to better balance the races and classes. To me enhancements should just add some flavor to the character not be so overpowering. I think the Prc thing could still be made to work, make them expensive in the new scaled back system...

2. BAB should be about speed, remove scaling attack bonus and have BAB effect swing speed rather than increasing the bonus. Just use Base BAB to determine attack scaling with a flat bonus and an increase in speed at each BAB +5

3. They are working on this one I think, need to get better mob logic so they don't stand in these spells and attack a little smarter.

4. Easy...just fail a quest on recall (already in the game for some quests like lighthouse in harbor)

5. Remove consumable vendors from the game. For classes that need spells like wizards let the class trainers teach them spell for a small fee. They can still drop but would be much more valuable/rare. I would remove spell point pots from the game as there is no equivalent in PnP to drinking a potion to allow you to cast an extra spell a day!

I could get behind everything you have suggested here save mnemonics.......

Also all the loot (especially weapons) would need to be toned down.

And weapons would need to be destroyed much more often/faster.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:05 AM
Kudos, do you care to comment on the rest of my post?

Can I do that without it turning into a flamefest or you getting offended?

gpk
12-11-2007, 08:07 AM
Can I do that without it turning into a flamefest or you getting offended?

Has anyone gotten offended yet? Id like to hear your counter-arguments to what I posted.

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 08:10 AM
Has anyone gotten offended yet?

I'm offended.

But then I'm offended any time someone can't seem to see past the end of their own nose to look at game balance from a broader perspective and then goes all ape**** about people nerfing their characters.

;)

smatt
12-11-2007, 08:10 AM
no there is a problem with over powered Player Characters in general........

Yes but with casters at this point's exponential....


Not just with casters, please do not presume to speak for me.

Ummmm, I wasn't you're clearly far superior and you opinion means far more than all others :)


The problem started with the melee combat system, creating the need to over power mobs which made casters (spells) and rogue (sneak attack) and ranger (favored enemy damage) very much less effective.

The fixes to some of these issues have created what we have today, but this cannot be solved without fixing the underlieing problem, the base combat system.

Well , given the fact it ain't happening Chuck, not sure whrer to go from there. This game won't be completely rebuilt, unless you would kindly donate a couple Mil or so :)

EinarMal
12-11-2007, 08:12 AM
I could get behind everything you have suggested here save mnemonics.......

Also all the loot (especially weapons) would need to be toned down.

And weapons would need to be destroyed much more often/faster.

I am fine with keeping them if they somehow tone down the quantities of mana pots you see. There seem to be way too many around and it is too easy to get stacks of them. People talk about duping them as being the reason they are so common and if that is the case that should definitely be fixed.

Weapon power would probably also have to be addressed, as well as magi items and really the overall ML levels of things. Caster equipment is about as overpowered as everything else in my opinion. A level 6 sceptor that gives you 6% spell crits etc...

Not sure about the weapon thing, the one thing that bothers me about this is the ridiculous number of oozes/slimes/rust monsters that are in this game especially at lower levels. They would have to tone that down for me to get behind this as that is not fair given how quickly they can eat up equipment and how stupidly common they are.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:15 AM
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I would argue that some of the problems you are describing were only really relevant in mod 1 and 2 (after Web got "fixed". Many of those problems were addresses before or by mod3. Thats a long time ago and yes they should have been addressed sooner.
Better spells such as blurs,displace better enhancements, more common spell boosting items etc. Playing a a Wiz/Sorc now is not the same as it once was. But again how much time do you spend being a level 5 wizard in DDO? How much time do you spend at end game? And if you're concerned about those lower levels how come you don't bring upthe fact the the mod5 metamagics hurt lower level casters?

So just because there were things that needed to be fixed back in mod 1-2, casters being boosted and paladins being nerfed some, does that mean the pendulum has to swing the other way when it's no longer needed or relevant? Did paladins need to be nerfed in mod4, mod5 and with enhancement costs after mod3? Did casters need to be doubled in power in mod5? They deserve it because back in Mod 1-2 they needed tweaking?
That kind of logic and reasoning is hurtful to DDO short and long term.
So we end up with much bigger imbalances than before (mod 5 metamagics) wich become exponentially more hurtful because it's later in the game and development updated are being spaced further apart with fewer changes, fixes and tweaks in between.

I'm just sad it's taken this long for people to rally behind the Balance "cause". But such is the nature of the game forums, people with legitimitae concerns and grievances are quickly berated and bombarded by some others.

The issues with the combat system are not only relevant in Mod 1 and Mod 2. Infact the issues dealing with the combat system in Mod 1 and Mod 2 not being addressed is what is causing all of the issues today.

This phenomenon is known as: Power Creep.

Again you are listing spells that enhance game play but they are all spells to buff melee. That does nothing to enhance the game play of a caster. That makes them a buff bot. (NOT FUN)

The new Metamagics do hurt lower casters but in the end make higher casters more powerful (which was needed especially with the NEW AI changes I suspect are in the pipeline although Turbine is being quiet about them for now.)

Casters needed the boost because of power creep and how much stronger enemies are in DDO then in Pen and Paper (and before somebody says this is not Pen and Paper guess what the spells are direct translations from pen and paper).

A 30 point fireball is effective at level 5 in pen and paper, in DDO it is a joke at level 5. heck it is a joke in waterworks on hard (unless it is being cast at you).

Until the root issues are solved the only solutions are wide spread nerfs....... or more power creep. (And to answer your question did casters need to be doubled in power in Mod 5, YES, they are now finally on a level playing field with melee types who have been more than doubled in power sincer LEVEL 1, (you know when you get that extra attack.))

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:16 AM
I'm offended.

But then I'm offended any time someone can't seem to see past the end of their own nose to look at game balance from a broader perspective and then goes all ape**** about people nerfing their characters.

;)

I see you MT...... :p

smatt
12-11-2007, 08:17 AM
Has anyone gotten offended yet? Id like to hear your counter-arguments to what I posted.


Not I, sure I answer in a smart ass way. But it's jsut that being a smart ass. I only get offened when people start palying the oh you suck because of this go rebuild or this or that. That is offensive... :) And I will retort with more smart assed comments. Been doing the BB for a very long time, admined on a very large rock band board for a rather few years. Know every little snipe, stab, and backdoor rib trick in the book...... And I've seen a rather few here and try largely to leave that stuff alone :) Most of waaht I say is a joke anyways. It's really not a seriopsu issue to be honest, so why take it so seriously, jsut a game..... Have fun here jsut as you try to do in game :)

Keeping the discussion real and on point is the hardest thing to do. This isn't an easy problem to solve,and although it may be a rather deeply based problem as Cowdenicus has stated. I doubt they will ever go that deeply to solve it.....

At the very least elite level quests should be locked in quests.. No recall, No re-entry..... Solve the over abundance of mana pots and there it is..... problem solved :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:17 AM
Yes but with casters at this point's exponential....




Which just about evens casters up with the mobs finally and it only took 2 years.

Invalid_86
12-11-2007, 08:18 AM
Nerfs aren't a bad thing. You can't fix problems by just making everything else more and more powerful.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:19 AM
Not sure about the weapon thing, the one thing that bothers me about this is the ridiculous number of oozes/slimes/rust monsters that are in this game especially at lower levels. They would have to tone that down for me to get behind this as that is not fair given how quickly they can eat up equipment and how stupidly common they are.

An entire thread could be dedicated to this one part of this discussion, meaning Turbines choices of enemies, not just oozes and such.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:20 AM
Nerfs aren't a bad thing. You can't fix problems by just making everything else more and more powerful.

Trageted nerfing is not a bad thing when one issue (when seperated from everything else) is overpowered.....

MOB HP and (P.C.) melee attacks (i.e progression) should have been nerfed long ago, and then alot of other things could be nerfed as well.

smatt
12-11-2007, 08:21 AM
Which just about evens casters up with the mobs finally and it only took 2 years.


Oh so it's the paybacks are a ***** thing..... OK, so it's replacing the dire injustice with dire injustice.. Now that' s critical thinking :)

smatt
12-11-2007, 08:22 AM
I have the answer.. Let's all donate U$1,000. and completely rebuild the game :)

Invalid_86
12-11-2007, 08:23 AM
Trageted nerfing is not a bad thing when one issue (when seperated from everything else) is overpowered.....

MOB HP and (P.C.) melee attacks (i.e progression) should have been nerfed long ago, and then alot of other things could be nerfed as well.


Oh yes, no doubt there.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:23 AM
Not I, sure I answer in a smart ass way. But it's jsut that being a smart ass. I only get offened when people start palying the oh you suck because of this go rebuild or this or that. That is offensive... :) And I will retort with more smart assed comments. Been doing the BB for a very long time, admined on a very large rock band board for a rather few years. Know every little snipe, stab, and backdoor rib trick in the book...... And I've seen a rather few here and try largely to leave that stuff alone :) Most of waaht I say is a joke anyways. It's really not a seriopsu issue to be honest, so why take it so seriously, jsut a game..... Have fun here jsut as you try to do in game :)

Keeping the discussion real and on point is the hardest thing to do. This isn't an easy problem to solve,and although it may be a rather deeply based problem as Cowdenicus has stated. I doubt they will ever go that deeply to solve it.....

At the very least elite level quests should be locked in quests.. No recall, No re-entry..... Solve the over abundance of mana pots and there it is..... problem solved :)

It is my opinion (and MT could back it up with statistical info if he wanted to although I doubt he would) that the power creep started at the beginning of the game (for whatever reasons although I think it was to provide a challenge for the party due to boosting of melee ability to make the combat engine work) and has created the entire issue we see before us today.

Mercules
12-11-2007, 08:23 AM
Base problems:

1. Enhancement system-This was tacked on and goes along way in creating all the inflation that we see in the game.
2. Increasing attack bonus and the way BAB is handled in the game
3. Stupid mob AI e.g. firewall problems allowing easy destruction of mobs who stand in it blindly
4. Allowing quest re-entry
5. Mass availability of consumables like mana pots, heal scrolls etc....

Miss anything?

Solutions?
1. Well the really unpopular one would be to scale these back to less overpowered options that do not overpower the feats and skills in the game (the best approach in my opinion). The problem now is that enhancements give more power than feats in many cases. Would require massive overhaul (again) of the system... The other option would be to just try and add more enhancements and maybe scale back a few others to better balance the races and classes. To me enhancements should just add some flavor to the character not be so overpowering. I think the Prc thing could still be made to work, make them expensive in the new scaled back system...

2. BAB should be about speed, remove scaling attack bonus and have BAB effect swing speed rather than increasing the bonus. Just use Base BAB to determine attack scaling with a flat bonus and an increase in speed at each BAB +5

3. They are working on this one I think, need to get better mob logic so they don't stand in these spells and attack a little smarter.

4. Easy...just fail a quest on recall (already in the game for some quests like lighthouse in harbor)

5. Remove consumable vendors from the game. For classes that need spells like wizards let the class trainers teach them spell for a small fee. They can still drop but would be much more valuable/rare. I would remove spell point pots from the game as there is no equivalent in PnP to drinking a potion to allow you to cast an extra spell a day!

For 2. I would be more inclined to say drop the bonus to +1, +2, +3 if anything. The rest looks good. Another thing to consider though is the items. They are a touch more powerful than they should be at any given ML.

What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a % system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Because of that if we want the low end of the spectrum to be able to have the possibility of doing something the high end of the scale can, we need to limit the number range to 20. DDO has failed to do this. Because of this Arcane casters don't even bother to try and use normal weapons. In PnP they would save their spells for certain tasks and often use a mundane weapon for most things. They had a chance of hitting and doing damage. In DDO the mindset is go all the way, min/max to the extreme. No AC or Dex on a caster? Who cares, just max out your casting and Con.

We also have the classic GM vrs Players battle going on that should never happen. The players won't limit themselves so the GM(Turbine) tries to and then it looks like they are out to get the players who push back by being even more outrageous, and it just keeps escalating. Make a mob fire immune to get rid of rounding them all up and burning them in a couple firewalls and the players switch to doing it with blade barriers. What is the answer? More mobs? Doors? what?

DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did. :)

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:26 AM
Oh so it's the paybacks are a ***** thing..... OK, so it's replacing the dire injustice with dire injustice.. Now that' s critical thinking :)

No what it is is that enemies have entirely (by factors) more hit points than they are supposed to. Without boosts to spell damage, the increase in MOB HP is a NERF to casters. (as well as rogues for sneak attack and rangers for favored enemies but let us focus on one thing here at a time)

The increase in Metamagics has now created a level playing field between the enemies in the game and casters.

Thats what kind of "thing" this is.

EinarMal
12-11-2007, 08:27 AM
Trageted nerfing is not a bad thing when one issue (when seperated from everything else) is overpowered.....

MOB HP and (P.C.) melee attacks (i.e progression) should have been nerfed long ago, and then alot of other things could be nerfed as well.

I think this game is going to struggle big time with balance in the coming levels. That is what happens when the core is a little shaky and you add things like enhancements to a ruleset without thinking of the entire consequences to the end (level 20 for D&D proper).

This game does need a better overall plan and vision for the future. Are casters overpowered currently, I tend to think that they are. There are lots of other issues as well, not just casters. The big problem though is when non-casters get to the point of not being invited to groups and no longer useful in any meaningful way besides hitting certain stat levers or something.

Unfortunately the system is too complicated with too many factors to have any simple and easy to code answers. I agree that you have to address the core issues if you really want a well balanced game. If Turbine is unwilling to do that then the game will never be very balanced and people will continue to drift away for that and other reasons.

gpk
12-11-2007, 08:27 AM
Again you are listing spells that enhance game play but they are all spells to buff melee. That does nothing to enhance the game play of a caster. That makes them a buff bot. (NOT FUN)

Blur and displace are valuable self survival spells as well, I don't often see casters dishing out Displacements to melees myself.


The new Metamagics do hurt lower casters but in the end make higher casters more powerful (which was needed especially with the NEW AI changes I suspect are in the pipeline although Turbine is being quiet about them for now.)

Well I hope the new AI changes come into mod6, but 4-5 months of Mod 5 with VERY powerful Metamagics and no AI changes, was that 5 months of good gameplay?


Casters needed the boost because of power creep and how much stronger enemies are in DDO then in Pen and Paper (and before somebody says this is not Pen and Paper guess what the spells are direct translations from pen and paper).
A 30 point fireball is effective at level 5 in pen and paper, in DDO it is a joke at level 5. heck it is a joke in waterworks on hard (unless it is being cast at you).

Spell crits, ehnancements, boosting items etc mean there arent really any level 5 30 point fireballs in DDO. Then again you also dont cast 1 fireball and those kobolds are hardly a worthy adversary for a level 5 caster.


Until the root issues are solved the only solutions are wide spread nerfs....... or more power creep. (And to answer your question did casters need to be doubled in power in Mod 5, YES, they are now finally on a level playing field with melee types who have been more than doubled in power sincer LEVEL 1, (you know when you get that extra attack.))

See again, this is where we differ in opinion. In game, even casters admit the doubling in power came from outta nowhere and they were already the stronger classes before mod5.
The playing field is FAR from level, it's skewed extremely heavily to the casters favor, to the point where as someone put it, the other classes are "doormen". If you can't see that, other than my questioning your sincerity, I'd say you are playing with very mediocre players (at best).

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:29 AM
For 2. I would be more inclined to say drop the bonus to +1, +2, +3 if anything. The rest looks good. Another thing to consider though is the items. They are a touch more powerful than they should be at any given ML.

What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a &#37; system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Because of that if we want the low end of the spectrum to be able to have the possibility of doing something the high end of the scale can, we need to limit the number range to 20. DDO has failed to do this. Because of this Arcane casters don't even bother to try and use normal weapons. In PnP they would save their spells for certain tasks and often use a mundane weapon for most things. They had a chance of hitting and doing damage. In DDO the mindset is go all the way, min/max to the extreme. No AC or Dex on a caster? Who cares, just max out your casting and Con.

We also have the classic GM vrs Players battle going on that should never happen. The players won't limit themselves so the GM(Turbine) tries to and then it looks like they are out to get the players who push back by being even more outrageous, and it just keeps escalating. Make a mob fire immune to get rid of rounding them all up and burning them in a couple firewalls and the players switch to doing it with blade barriers. What is the answer? More mobs? Doors? what?

DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did. :)

Oh I understand what you are saying but Turbine is the gate keeper. They have all the keys here, we only use their system (now I am not talking exploits here but legitimate design issues)

I think the term is called power creep. it has been around for a while, and it isnt going anywhere around here.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:30 AM
I think this game is going to struggle big time with balance in the coming levels. That is what happens when the core is a little shaky and you add things like enhancements to a ruleset without thinking of the entire consequences to the end (level 20 for D&D proper).

This game does need a better overall plan and vision for the future. Are casters overpowered currently, I tend to think that they are. There are lots of other issues as well, not just casters. The big problem though is when non-casters get to the point of not being invited to groups and no longer useful in any meaningful way besides hitting certain stat levers or something.

Unfortunately the system is too complicated with too many factors to have any simple and easy to code answers. I agree that you have to address the core issues if you really want a well balanced game. If Turbine is unwilling to do that then the game will never be very balanced and people will continue to drift away for that and other reasons.

QFT

Mercules
12-11-2007, 08:32 AM
See again, this is where we differ in opinion. In game, even casters admit the doubling in power came from outta nowhere and they were already the stronger classes before mod5.
The playing field is FAR from level, it's skewed extremely heavily to the casters favor, to the point where as someone put it, the other classes are "doormen". If you can't see that, other than my questioning your sincerity, I'd say you are playing with very mediocre players (at best).

I'd take a look at his guild. I've played a lot with them because two of my real life friends are in his guild. They are all good solid players although some of them have been level capped for so long that they tend to forget what the rest of the game is like. So, the issue at hand is not that he has not been in groups with good players with maxed out equipment.

Mercules
12-11-2007, 08:41 AM
Oh I understand what you are saying but Turbine is the gate keeper. They have all the keys here, we only use their system (now I am not talking exploits here but legitimate design issues)

I think the term is called power creep. it has been around for a while, and it isnt going anywhere around here.

Oh no... this is definitely a power creep issue, also known as MUDflation, for those of us who come from an old Text Based computer adventuring. Melee was overpowered before. They addressed that by boosting up the caster, who are now powerful. They are boosting Ranged now. What is the finally solution?

I think you are right that all of it could be related to that -one- extra swing we get at BAB 1 and just going up from there. I think some others are right(from other threads in previous weeks) the level cap was the one of the worst thing to happen to DDO. People got stuck and so looted endlessly and then twinked characters which allowed them to cap them quicker and loot more. So items became overpowered on top of the extra swing on top of the enhancements. The whole game is bloated with power which pushes the challenges we face to the point of Pass/Fail. Either you succeed, or you don't. There isn't a great "challenge" it is you overwhelm your foes or you are overwhelmed. This is extremely true of magic. Either your foe is dead/incapacitated, or you are about to be.

We exploded our D20 range. We need to definitely get some balance back and boosting everyone isn't the answer and nerfing one little part isn't the answer.

I am not saying we don't need to address this issue, I am stating we should exercise caution in what we do.

GrayOldDruid
12-11-2007, 08:46 AM
I am sorry, you can't call an entire game unbalanced simply because there is some imbalance NOT in your favor at the current level cap.

The ONLY problem I can see is that capped characters amass too much money and too much XP to care about wasting either one of them, so Lvl14 casters can do all these things everyone is complaining about with ease - no other casters can. JUST level 14 or the lower-level alts that these people twink to heck and back.

On a "Big Picture" scale, there is no imbalance. Any imbalance seen is Player-Created.

If you focus only on the current cap level, then your perspective is imbalanced, making everything else look off as well.

Who cares about dying and the 5000xp debt - just make a madstone run on normal and you're all set, "I'm capped anyway...."

I saw another post but forgot to quote it, saying the Players are breaking the game and screaming it needs to be fixed, and I agree - "Quit breaking the game."

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 08:46 AM
I'd take a look at his guild. I've played a lot with them because two of my real life friends are in his guild. They are all good solid players although some of them have been level capped for so long that they tend to forget what the rest of the game is like. So, the issue at hand is not that he has not been in groups with good players with maxed out equipment.

Just because I am level capped 72 hours after a mod doesnt mean I am an addict....... :eek::D

Mercules
12-11-2007, 09:11 AM
I am sorry, you can't call an entire game unbalanced simply because there is some imbalance NOT in your favor at the current level cap.

The ONLY problem I can see is that capped characters amass too much money and too much XP to care about wasting either one of them, so Lvl14 casters can do all these things everyone is complaining about with ease - no other casters can. JUST level 14 or the lower-level alts that these people twink to heck and back.

On a "Big Picture" scale, there is no imbalance. Any imbalance seen is Player-Created.

If you focus only on the current cap level, then your perspective is imbalanced, making everything else look off as well.

Who cares about dying and the 5000xp debt - just make a madstone run on normal and you're all set, "I'm capped anyway...."

I saw another post but forgot to quote it, saying the Players are breaking the game and screaming it needs to be fixed, and I agree - "Quit breaking the game."

I think you just said what I was saying in a MUCH clearer way. Thank you.

Raithe
12-11-2007, 09:32 AM
DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did.

This is the bottom line. The problems that are getting highlighted in this thread have to do with player perception (and a mostly faulty perception at that), and abusing game mechanics that could be similarly abused in PnP D&D and other MMOs. People will always be able to sabotage their own enjoyment, and nothing the rulesmakers do can prevent it.

The real solution to the problems is to increase the diversity of play (and not necessarily by adding modules), so that people don't spend all their time "in the game" number crunching DPS values, comparing builds, and recalling out for more spell points.

gpk
12-11-2007, 09:37 AM
I am sorry, you can't call an entire game unbalanced simply because there is some imbalance NOT in your favor at the current level cap.

The ONLY problem I can see is that capped characters amass too much money and too much XP to care about wasting either one of them, so Lvl14 casters can do all these things everyone is complaining about with ease - no other casters can. JUST level 14 or the lower-level alts that these people twink to heck and back.

On a "Big Picture" scale, there is no imbalance. Any imbalance seen is Player-Created.

If you focus only on the current cap level, then your perspective is imbalanced, making everything else look off as well.

Who cares about dying and the 5000xp debt - just make a madstone run on normal and you're all set, "I'm capped anyway...."

I saw another post but forgot to quote it, saying the Players are breaking the game and screaming it needs to be fixed, and I agree - "Quit breaking the game."

How is one class being overpowered vs another class EVER a good thing? Are we revenge-balancing the game? that's what it's come down to ?
So if casters needed some boosts back in mod and 2 they should be vastly overpowered in mod5? That's youre idea of "big picture" ?

So in mod 6, lets give all mobs SR40, Immunities to all elements, fear etc so that only melees can hurt them. By your logic that would be balancing right?

Since we can't go back in time and re-balance mod 1 and 2 we should forget about the present and future?
For you, balance means: my level 5 wizard had a harder time than a fighter so by level 14 he should be twice+ as powerful ?
How much actual time did you spend at level 5 versus at level 14 anyways?

One imbalanced mod for 1 class means there should be another imbalanced mod for another and thus we achieve balance?
What an absurd line of reasoning, am I understanding you correctly?

Taojeff
12-11-2007, 09:42 AM
For 2. I would be more inclined to say drop the bonus to +1, +2, +3 if anything. The rest looks good. Another thing to consider though is the items. They are a touch more powerful than they should be at any given ML.

What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a % system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Because of that if we want the low end of the spectrum to be able to have the possibility of doing something the high end of the scale can, we need to limit the number range to 20. DDO has failed to do this. Because of this Arcane casters don't even bother to try and use normal weapons. In PnP they would save their spells for certain tasks and often use a mundane weapon for most things. They had a chance of hitting and doing damage. In DDO the mindset is go all the way, min/max to the extreme. No AC or Dex on a caster? Who cares, just max out your casting and Con.

We also have the classic GM vrs Players battle going on that should never happen. The players won't limit themselves so the GM(Turbine) tries to and then it looks like they are out to get the players who push back by being even more outrageous, and it just keeps escalating. Make a mob fire immune to get rid of rounding them all up and burning them in a couple firewalls and the players switch to doing it with blade barriers. What is the answer? More mobs? Doors? what?

DDO is NOT balanced but I don't think we can point the finger at Turbine when a lot of it comes from our own actions, some of which are understandable and human nature, but none the less things we knowingly did. :)

Claps

gpk
12-11-2007, 10:01 AM
What people forget is that games like D&D are based around a random number generator. In this case it represents a D20 which gives a very narrow range to work with. Other games use a percentile system. A +1 to hit in a D20 system is the equivalent of a +5 to hit in a &#37; system. This really makes major bonuses become exponentially better. +5 to hit is +25 to hit in other systems. The smaller range means even a slight change can unbalance things.

Well if you'll take a look at the Codog thread, you'll see Serpent , MysticTheurge, others and myself all pleading that the proposed 5th attack at +15 be scaled back to +10 at MOST. The devs agreed.

Thats a "nerf" right there, a big nerf that we asked for and a pre-emptive nerf at that. Hell I nerfed nearly all my characters.
Some in this thread would have you believe that a "nerf" is ALWAYS a bad thing.

Ohers would have you believe that since Mod5 is so "strong for casters at this level cap", the next mod should be overpowered in another direction. That +15 attack bonus would eventually lead to inflated mob AC and leave out the partial bab-classes out in the cold. But who cares about them right? They were good in mod 2, and it wouldn't be their "turn" to be "on top".

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 10:04 AM
Well if you'll take a look at the Codog thread, you'll see Serpent , MysticTheurge, others and myself all pleading that the proposed 5th attack at +15 be scaled back to +10 at MOST. The devs agreed.

Thats a "nerf" right there, a big nerf that we asked for and a pre-emptive nerf at that. Hell I nerfed nearly all my characters.
Some in this thread would have you believe that a "nerf" is ALWAYS a bad thing.

Ohers would have you believe that since Mod5 is so "strong for casters at this level cap", the next mod should be overpowered in another direction. That +15 attack bonus would eventually lead to inflated mob AC and leave out the partial bab-classes out in the cold. But who cares about them right? They were good in mod 2, and it wouldn't be their "turn" to be "on top".

:rolleyes:

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 10:08 AM
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

(Mine means "way to add to the discussion with constructive comments." What did yours mean?)

Mercules
12-11-2007, 10:42 AM
Well if you'll take a look at the Codog thread, you'll see Serpent , MysticTheurge, others and myself all pleading that the proposed 5th attack at +15 be scaled back to +10 at MOST. The devs agreed.

Thats a "nerf" right there, a big nerf that we asked for and a pre-emptive nerf at that. Hell I nerfed nearly all my characters.
Some in this thread would have you believe that a "nerf" is ALWAYS a bad thing.

Ohers would have you believe that since Mod5 is so "strong for casters at this level cap", the next mod should be overpowered in another direction. That +15 attack bonus would eventually lead to inflated mob AC and leave out the partial bab-classes out in the cold. But who cares about them right? They were good in mod 2, and it wouldn't be their "turn" to be "on top".

Which is not what I am saying. I agree capped casters are too powerful, but I believe some of it comes from unlimited SPs. Capped casters who decide not to recall for SPs or don't have access to a ton of mnemonic pots are fairly balanced with capped melee. I don't think the pendulum should keep swinging back and forth or in an oval in this case with each class being a point on a circle.

I also believe nerfs are not a bad thing. I wouldn't mind starting over at 1st level with nothing again if it would help them fix the balance issues by wiping everything and starting over with altered rules. I think a lot of people would have an issue with that, unfortunately, as I think it would be the ultimate solution to some of the balance issues.

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 10:48 AM
I also believe nerfs are not a bad thing. I wouldn't mind starting over at 1st level with nothing again if it would help them fix the balance issues by wiping everything and starting over with altered rules. I think a lot of people would have an issue with that, unfortunately, as I think it would be the ultimate solution to some of the balance issues.

It's also an utterly unfeasible "solution" and thus doesn't really make any sense to discuss. There's no way a game that does that can really seriously hope to continue to thrive.

Thus, discussion of how to balance the game should largely work within the context of the game as is. I mean, suggesting they drop the increasing iterative attack bonus in favor of an increase alacrity bonus is one thing. Suggesting we wipe the slate and start over is something completely different.

Mercules
12-11-2007, 11:11 AM
It's also an utterly unfeasible "solution" and thus doesn't really make any sense to discuss. There's no way a game that does that can really seriously hope to continue to thrive.

Thus, discussion of how to balance the game should largely work within the context of the game as is. I mean, suggesting they drop the increasing iterative attack bonus in favor of an increase alacrity bonus is one thing. Suggesting we wipe the slate and start over is something completely different.

It's not unfeasible. Most games do this, it is just disguised as Everquest 2. We have reached the limits of what we can do with the rules the way we are so we make a 2.

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 11:15 AM
It's not unfeasible. Most games do this, it is just disguised as Everquest 2. We have reached the limits of what we can do with the rules the way we are so we make a 2.

Ok well, yeah. We might get a DDO 2. But in the meantime, I'd rather discuss how best to "fix" DDO 1.

Westerner
12-11-2007, 11:16 AM
I've read through most of the thread and feel that game balance between classes should be a shifting quantity. As level caps increase and new abilities get added, some classes will become more powerful and others less. I think part of the fun is discovering what is most effective as the game changes. So if casters are getting their turn in the sun now, that's ok.

That said, I think that recalling/reentering is an unbalancing factor that applies to all classes to various degrees. So I would suggest restricting recalling/reentering as follows:

Elite: Prohibited
Hard: Prohibited on Level 11 and higher quests. Allowed on Level 10 and lower as now (with XP penalty).
Normal: Allowed as now (with XP penalty).

This addresses some of OP's concerns in a way that doesn't specifically nerf casters, and would hopefully be simple to impelement.

Mercules
12-11-2007, 11:21 AM
Ok well, yeah. We might get a DDO 2. But in the meantime, I'd rather discuss how best to "fix" DDO 1.

We won't get DDO 2 if 1 spirals out of control and becomes a crappy game. We don't have a Auto Assault 2, do we? So yes we need to fix DDO 1 but that means fix not flounder about never changing a broken core system. Until you address the shaky foundation a house will never be solidly built, no matter how many braces you put on it.

gpk
12-11-2007, 11:25 AM
I've read through most of the thread and feel that game balance between classes should be a shifting quantity. As level caps increase and new abilities get added, some classes will become more powerful and others less. I think part of the fun is discovering what is most effective as the game changes. So if casters are getting their turn in the sun now, that's ok.

Noone is arguing that it's ok for a class to shienin the sun. But there is shining in the sun and there is basking in the light of 100 supernovae while everyone else is illuminated by a cheap knock off of a mini m@glite with drained batteries.
Casters were aldready shining in the sun in mod4, that sun had 99 of it's brethren show up and go boom in Mod5.

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 12:26 PM
We won't get DDO 2 if 1 spirals out of control and becomes a crappy game. We don't have a Auto Assault 2, do we? So yes we need to fix DDO 1 but that means fix not flounder about never changing a broken core system.

There's no Star Wars Galaxies 2 either. ;)

EinarMal
12-11-2007, 12:29 PM
There's no Star Wars Galaxies 2 either. ;)

You know that is a really nice comment that I bet most people miss. The combat engine overhaul killed that game forever. I was thinking the same thing even while writing some ideas to overhaul it. It is very tricky business trying to fix a game on the fly that had some fundamental problems from the start without totally wrecking it and making everyone angry and feeling "nerfed".

Mercules
12-11-2007, 01:53 PM
There's no Star Wars Galaxies 2 either. ;)

Very good point. It wasn't just that they reeled everything in and started fresh, it's that they reeled everything in and recreated a new more EQ like game. Even if we wiped out existing characters and banished Enhancements and started over with one less swing, it wouldn't fundamentally change the way the game plays like the whole SWG thing.

Invalid_86
12-11-2007, 02:38 PM
In an ideal world I'd be all for nuking DDO from orbit (it's the only way to be sure!) and starting fresh actually following the D&D rules alot closer. But the reality is we would have to get there a step at a time. Slowly fix things. BAB. Metamagic. Monty Haulism. Twinking. Mob immunities. Excessive hps. Enhancements. Turning undead.

Taojeff
12-11-2007, 02:46 PM
In an ideal world I'd be all for nuking DDO from orbit (it's the only way to be sure!) and starting fresh actually following the D&D rules alot closer. But the reality is we would have to get there a step at a time. Slowly fix things. BAB. Metamagic. Monty Haulism. Twinking. Mob immunities. Excessive hps. Enhancements. Turning undead.

Your right, but lets make some progress!!!!!

Talon_Moonshadow
12-11-2007, 03:09 PM
I dont know, I am starting to see balance now between melee and magic finally after almost 2 years into the game....

I couldn't agree with you more!
For two years this has been a melee dominated game (and still is for most lvl 1-13 groups IMO) and finally casters start to dominate, and oh how quickly we forget the many posts about melee dominance from just a few months ago...

I have yet to see any casters take down Velah.....not saying it can't be done, but it is definately not the norm.
I have yet to see casters take down the Demon Queen.....yes I know people say they have, but not in the few raids I've been on.

I have seen a very recent twist toward all caster groups in certain MOD5 dungeons....
I have seen the buff, melee, heal, melee, heal, melee tactic been changed to firewall, firewall, firewall......recently.

For me both tactics are boring boring boring.

My Wiz had a hard time soloing harbor quests at lvl12 or so because I ran out of SP and ran out of HP.
I don't care that someone with a milion plat from a plat farmer and unlimited mana pots and heal pots can solo some quest I can't.

I don't care that casters who recall for mana constantly can FOD there way through any quest.

These are not game design problems.....(although introducing AU and the lvl cap are part of the problem)

Solution: vary the content........make every class and every capability important at sometime.
Improve AI......stop standing in the firewall.
Look closly at enhancement system.......why does firewall do more damage than fireball? How does someone do 1000pts of damage with a firewall or a heal?

Zenako
12-11-2007, 03:10 PM
I've read through most of the thread and feel that game balance between classes should be a shifting quantity. As level caps increase and new abilities get added, some classes will become more powerful and others less. I think part of the fun is discovering what is most effective as the game changes. So if casters are getting their turn in the sun now, that's ok.

That said, I think that recalling/reentering is an unbalancing factor that applies to all classes to various degrees. So I would suggest restricting recalling/reentering as follows:

Elite: Prohibited
Hard: Prohibited on Level 11 and higher quests. Allowed on Level 10 and lower as now (with XP penalty).
Normal: Allowed as now (with XP penalty).

This addresses some of OP's concerns in a way that doesn't specifically nerf casters, and would hopefully be simple to impelement.


Agree in principle - could debate the actual limits and levels, but some sort of prohibition for reentry on Elite and high level quests would make things a lot more manageable.

Again, having casters being able to nuke is fine...their turn in the sun so to speak. Being able to nuke non-stop via recalling and mana pots dilutes the "fun" for anyone else. Imagine if Paladins got to have SMite active 100% of the time. Might make other melees feel inadequate....

How to handle the spell points. Restrict reentry. That alone will slow things down some.

You could also alter how mana pots work. Instead of getting 300 Spell points in a lump from that major pnuemonic, you start regening spell points at so many a minute like cheap drinks in a bar. If we have to wait 5-8 minutes for the Sorc to Regen spell points (and recall they are planning on making rest shrines reset after a certain period of time now, which should limit the hurt on the no recall policy for soloing for example) then the group dynamics might shift to letting the melee's fight, the casters cast and so on. Right now I see situation where, since they can, the casters drop so many WoF down that my screen turns completely yellow. They might use up 1/2 a mana bar doing it, but they don't care since it is so easy to regain the SP and keep on running.

Running a hard quest on Elite should be a challenge and require coordination and good teamwork to beat. It should not just be a zergfest and nuke city.

smatt
12-11-2007, 03:13 PM
Which is not what I am saying. I agree capped casters are too powerful, but I believe some of it comes from unlimited SPs. Capped casters who decide not to recall for SPs or don't have access to a ton of mnemonic pots are fairly balanced with capped melee. I don't think the pendulum should keep swinging back and forth or in an oval in this case with each class being a point on a circle.

Agreed almsot 100%, unlimited mana is the main problem at this point. Now I want to say, taht by limiting mana I would be nerfed I my loot runs as well.... :( But I think overall it would create a better and more enjoyable game expericance for all people and all classes. But how to limit mana at lvl cap, and not turn lower level casters into what trap monkeys, Palis,a nd ranged rangers are now?


I also believe nerfs are not a bad thing. I wouldn't mind starting over at 1st level with nothing again if it would help them fix the balance issues by wiping everything and starting over with altered rules. I think a lot of people would have an issue with that, unfortunately, as I think it would be the ultimate solution to some of the balance issues.


Hmm, not sure taht would ever be possible, again who's going to pay for it? Thsi would be an expensive thing to do, would take a very long time, would need the approbval yet again of WotC. And would be a completely different game. personalyl I like a good majority of the way things go now to be honest. And I think MOST not all of the player base enjoy the game. But, there are always going to be inequities, some of them can be fixed some can't be. Soem of these concerns may even be fixed in Mod 6...... Who knows....

The complications within the DDO system as far as the different classes, their inherant abilities, their weaknesses, makes for interesting problems indeed. I find it intersting how overly excited some get over the whole thing though.. "Oh my god, how dare they even mention any kind of a change for the all poweful balloon headed must kill everything in site, hey you go stand in the corner and wait for me to finger or burn everything, and if you're good, and don't ask for any buffs, hastes etc basically ****.... PERHAPS I might allow you to come with me on the next quest" type caster :)

Westerner
12-11-2007, 05:50 PM
You could also alter how mana pots work. Instead of getting 300 Spell points in a lump from that major pnuemonic, you start regening spell points at so many a minute like cheap drinks in a bar. If we have to wait 5-8 minutes for the Sorc to Regen spell points (and recall they are planning on making rest shrines reset after a certain period of time now, which should limit the hurt on the no recall policy for soloing for example) then the group dynamics might shift to letting the melee's fight, the casters cast and so on. Right now I see situation where, since they can, the casters drop so many WoF down that my screen turns completely yellow. They might use up 1/2 a mana bar doing it, but they don't care since it is so easy to regain the SP and keep on running.

Running a hard quest on Elite should be a challenge and require coordination and good teamwork to beat. It should not just be a zergfest and nuke city.

I agree with your last statement; Elite should require teamwork and not be a cakewalk, for any class.

I believe the plan is for shrines to reset on Normal or lower, which suggests that folks should have finite resources available to them on Hard/Elite. Currently, recall/reenter circumvents that, and I think the solution is to have some significant non-XP penalty for doing so.

I'm not experienced with mana pots fueling zerging at upper levels, however, my gut is it might be better to look for something more general that everyone can get behind, and avoid a specific nerf.

Some folks are talking along similar lines in this thread.
Linky (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1469685#post1469685)