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Borrigain
12-07-2007, 04:34 PM
So, Brutous and I were having this discussion regarding Warforged. Well, frankly, they scare me. Like something out of a horror movie or sci-fi. Not living. However, we know they ARE:

from wiki:

The warforged are one of the playable races of creatures in the Eberron campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game.

The warforged are a race of living, sentient constructs superficially similar to golems. warforged are composed of a blend of materials: predominantly stone, wood, and some type of metal. These components take on unnatural properties during the warforged-creation process. Some warforged are able to alter their shapes somewhat and produce spikes. Interestingly, materials used to repair a damaged warforged take on the properties of the materials already present in the warforged. Conversly, any materials removed from the husk of a non-functional warforged decay rapidly, and are unfit for any other use.

Now, I'm pretty sure since they are made of wood they can get soggy when wet, but the point is.......

Nowhere does it mention they have a "soul".

Last I checked, constructs are basically programmable. AI can possibly "learn", but to "feel".......I don't know.

Ever heard the phrase, "The eyes are the gateway to the soul"?

Look at the following eyes:

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/Borrigain/wfsmall.jpg

Now look at these eyes:

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/Borrigain/terminator_robot_small.jpg

Similar? You'd better believe it. And since we know that the T1000 had no soul, it's safe to surmise that......

Warforged have no SOULS!

Scary huh? No wonder they creep me out, with their twitchin' and their shifty eyes.

But that's just me and my worthless opinion. What do YOU think?

Discuss, :)

Borr.

P.S. where did the insert picture button go?

Yvonne_Blacksword
12-07-2007, 04:37 PM
Canno fuhind eet.
Itink ih whirr eeton.
Espresso, not care...
<pout>

Brutous
12-07-2007, 05:35 PM
They do have a soul...I know they do... I know they do... Just need more time to research it..

Any volunteer WF's out there?

Borrigain
12-07-2007, 05:48 PM
No they don't.....keep lookin' :)


And Yvonne, I think MT is on vacation today.....buwhahahahahah.

:D

Show me the "proof", :D
Borr.

Aesop
12-07-2007, 05:54 PM
I believe the writers left that hazy to let the DM/Players decide... I personally believe that they are inhabited by the Souls of Dead Heroes that escaped from that Study Hall that Eberron calls an Afterlife to live again as Heroes


Aesop

Borrigain
12-07-2007, 06:02 PM
I believe the writers left that hazy to let the DM/Players decide... I personally believe that they are inhabited by the Souls of Dead Heroes that escaped from that Study Hall that Eberron calls an Afterlife to live again as Heroes


Aesop

See? either way.....still creepy .

/shiver

:D
Borr.

Jack_No.7
12-07-2007, 06:13 PM
hmmm i say they have a soul

we are nothing but flesh and bone yet we have a soul why?

wf are made of livewood , metal and other odds and ends why dont they have a soul?

im more under the impression that the soul is derived from ones actions and being.
what motivates u to do what u do(when left choices) is essencially ur soul, warforged have motivation ( for what i dont know especially with what there women are like)

plus i mean they are birthed in creation forges... theres something else then electricity thats makes them decide to become a cleric or barbarian or wizard

well thats my 2 cents anyways

Symar-FangofLloth
12-07-2007, 08:03 PM
If I recall correctly...
They CAN be brought back from the dead, which implies a soul. However, they have no recollections of any sort of afterlife when such a thing happens, therefore bringing up more questions.
The first warforged, or at least the earliest we know of, really, were created by the Quori to use a host vessels on the material plane. These warforged did not have souls, and were not anything more than an empty, lifeless construct. (Although they may have moved around and such like other non-living constructs do, who knows.) The boss of Prison of the Planes is a Quori-possessed warforged. We defeat his body, but chances are high we don't even touch the true Quori and we merely banish him away, or something.

Anyway, that's my input.

Yvonne_Blacksword
12-08-2007, 04:20 PM
No they don't.....keep lookin' :)


And Yvonne, I think MT is on vacation today.....buwhahahahahah.

:D

Show me the "proof", :D
Borr.
Hew har meeheen
Espresso huhate hew.
<Grrrr....>
:mad:

I know I read it some where...in a thread...but I searched for an hour and couldn't find it...
It was only one of many fruitless searches on Friday.

Hvymetal
12-09-2007, 02:20 AM
Come now, EVERYONE knows that it is really Dwarves that have no souls. The beard takes up too much space there was no space left for a soul....

Aesop
12-09-2007, 11:59 AM
Come now, EVERYONE knows that it is really Dwarves that have no souls. The beard takes up too much space there was no space left for a soul....

There aren't chins under dwarves' beards... just another Axe

Aesop

Ghoste
12-09-2007, 12:48 PM
from Dragonshard Archives: The Warforged, Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050627a)
Composition and insignia are elements that many warforged may share. But every warforged has one unique feature: the sigil engraved on its forehead. These symbols are as individual as human fingerprints, and if a warforged possesses the ability to cast arcane mark, its personal mark will be the same as the sigil on its forehead. These symbols were not designed by human hands. When Aaren d'Cannith's first construct emerged from the creation forge, it bore a symbol on its forehead, and the second had a different sigil. Aaren's dedicated dwarven magewrights called these symbols "ghulra," a Dwarven word for "truth."

Warforged adopt names to deal with humans, but when dealing with each other, the ghulra serves as an important form of identification. A warforged may wear a hood to conceal its forehead from strangers, but when among friends most prefer to leave the symbol visible. While someone could gouge away the symbol, the ghulra is a part of the warforged in a way nobody truly understands; when someone uses repair or cure spells on the warforged, a damaged ghulra is restored to its original shape. While it cannot be permanently destroyed, a warforged can cover its ghulra or may choose to use Disguise to place a false mark over its real one.
One of many signs that warforged have souls.

Other things to consider: raise dead spells work on warforged. They do not work on creatures without souls, such as non living constructs, and should not work, in my opinion, on dwarves.

Ghoste
12-09-2007, 12:49 PM
See? either way.....still creepy .

/shiver

:D
Borr.
You have no idea, hairy little one.

RemoJr
12-09-2007, 09:19 PM
WF do have souls. Consider the cure and inflict spells. The cure spells target the body with positive energy, the inflict spells target the soul with negative energy. The reason WF have only half healing but full infliction is that their bodies arn't quite normal, so the cure spell doesn't work all the way, however the inflict spells target their soul, which takes full damage. We can see this working in this manner when applied to full constructs. They have a body of materials and no soul, so niether spells affect them. The only way a WF could be considered souless is when they progress far enough in the warforged juggernaut prestidge class to gain negative energy immunity, which may be because they have lost their soul (this is up for arguement and will ultimatlly be up to the individual DM to decide).

Levowitz
12-21-2007, 02:51 AM
The Lord of Blades has become a deity. If he has become a deity, it means he had a soul to begin with -- and in having one, so too do the other forged.

Ghoste
12-21-2007, 03:08 AM
With the new spell, Trap the Soul, some warforged are going to be carrying around a lot of extra souls.


The Lord of Blades has become a deity. If he has become a deity, it means he had a soul to begin with -- and in having one, so too do the other forged.
He is a figurehead, not a deity. In Eberron, clerics and paladins can follow higher causes and groups of god, not just a specific god.

The warforged deity is the Becoming God.

Levowitz
12-21-2007, 03:13 AM
With the new spell, Trap the Soul, some warforged are going to be carrying around a lot of extra souls.


He is a figurehead, not a deity. In Eberron, clerics and paladins can follow higher causes and groups of god, not just a specific god.

The warforged deity is the Becoming God.

Incorrect. If you recall, a Paladin does not wake up and decide to become a paladin. He is BORN to become a Paladin.

"I, like god, do not play with dice nor believe in coincidence."

Ghoste
12-21-2007, 03:37 AM
Incorrect. If you recall, a Paladin does not wake up and decide to become a paladin. He is BORN to become a Paladin.

"I, like god, do not play with dice nor believe in coincidence."
As far as paladins, it's not just Eberron where they need not follow a god to be a paladin.

From the Player's Handbook Pg 43:

Religion: Paladins need not devote themselves to a
single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough.

And clerics in Eberron: here is a link for you (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040705a). At the bottom of the page you will find this passage which also references the Eberron Campaign Setting book.

As described on page 35 of the Eberron Campaign Setting, it is possible for a cleric to have no god and still perform divine magic. This is not, however, the same as having no beliefs; it still requires a strong commitment to an ideal or a philosophy. The cleric needs to devise his own system of belief and explain how it justifies the domains he has selected, and the DM always has the authority to disallow a combination of domains. The goal is to allow a broad range of personal faiths -- like the warforged developing their own religions -- not to encourage players to pick domains based solely on granted abilities.

And lastly, the Lord of Blades is no god. He is a pretender who will fall in line when the becoming god reveals himself.

Levowitz
12-21-2007, 03:42 AM
I concede that I was incorrect about the Lord of Blades; however, I believe that as they are living beings, they have souls. Anything you can perform a resurrection on, must have a soul.

Wait, an edit! Devotion to righteousness sir, as you've listed, is a requirement for Paladins. A Paladin who serves the Lord of Blades hardly seems a righteous sort, lest it is the blessed righteousness of rendering fleshbags to their place as lesser, inferior farm animals is -divine will- of a -god-.

Ghoste
12-21-2007, 03:52 AM
I concede that I was incorrect about the Lord of Blades; however, I believe that as they are living beings, they have souls. Anything you can perform a resurrection on, must have a soul.

Wait, an edit! Devotion to righteousness sir, as you've listed, is a requirement for Paladins. A Paladin who serves the Lord of Blades hardly seems a righteous sort, lest it is the blessed righteousness of rendering fleshbags to their place as lesser, inferior farm animals is -divine will- of a -god-.
Yes, that is the will of a god. But the Lord of Blades is not that god. You describe the will of the Becoming God: to raise his living construct children to their rightful place in Eberron.

Even if that weren't the case, your argument does not make the Lord of Blades a god. It would just mean the paladins who follow him believe his cause to be righteous, in which case it still boils down to his cause, not the Lord of Blades himself being the source of divinity.

*Edit: The Lord of Blades serves his god well, though not overtly. And for the time being that serves the Will of the Becoming God who prefers to quietly gather his strength. The Lord of Blades diverts unwanted attention, yet still pursues the same ends. Though a pretender, he will always have a place in the new order.

Tanka
12-21-2007, 08:46 AM
Wait, an edit! Devotion to righteousness sir, as you've listed, is a requirement for Paladins. A Paladin who serves the Lord of Blades hardly seems a righteous sort, lest it is the blessed righteousness of rendering fleshbags to their place as lesser, inferior farm animals is -divine will- of a -god-.
Righteous: morally justified; "righteous indignation"

Doesn't necessarily mean "right" or "holy" by that definition. ;)

VonBek
12-21-2007, 08:54 AM
I really like Aesop's Recycled Souls theory, and think highly of it. My pet theory was that all WF tap into a single soul. Not a "collective hive soul", but a single thing that runs through all WF.

"Righteousness" depends upon perspective. If your character has sloughed off the lies of the flesh, and it's world view centers around existence as a construct, the "Righteous" might mean something rather frightening to fleshlings:


"Really, the mud-bags have no real place in the world, other than, perhaps, to serve as a good example of parasitic culture. They exist to consume everything around them, including each other, generally trying to hold more than they can carry or care for. Barely a few seek to preserve and protect any part of the world around them. Pairings happen for no real reason, they pop out of one another with no real planning. They hobble their strong and give power to the weak and broken. Nature takes better care of it's own species; what little "nature" they acknowledge in themselves only serves as justification for circumventing their own social compacts."


Twenty Three, of the Mournlands.

Levowitz
12-21-2007, 12:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8UL6BA71lg

query
12-23-2007, 05:31 AM
If bringing back from death is not proof enough, then we have no idea if ANY of us have souls!

Maybe all dead people have are only aspects or an appearance of form like we do in astral/planal travel? That silver cord cut only an image, but the body died...yeah, that's it!



Just because it has or has not been recorded does not make it true.


Realisticly if the thing that animates us and gives us self-awareness (one of the de facto definitions of having a soul) is able to br brought back post death and even has the free will to choose not to return, sounds like a soul with a different container to me!


So the forged have a lifespark while other humanoids have lifeblood. when either of them go empty, we know its soul has left it.


Or the thing we all imagine is our soul :p

Tsuarok
05-14-2010, 11:24 AM
I'll show you my soul if you show me yours

Ashiel_Dragmire
05-14-2010, 11:58 AM
"Uh yeah, I just wanted to say that it really irritates me that Southpark would say that Warforged don’t have souls, okay. Because, we do. We do have souls, alright? And lately, I’ve been called a robot, a gimped robot, by everybody in my guild… and it really hurts my feelings. I act like it dudint, but it really does, really bad.

WARFORGED HAVE SOULS! I go to church; I’m a follower of the Silver Flame! You don’t know me, you’re not the Flame! Hoo! Wobrbrbrbr! You’re not the Flame, you don’t know who has a soul and who dudint, alright? I’m a follower of the Silver Flame. So if you think that I don’t have a soul, tell me. Otherwise, f**k you. B****s do it, for real. I’m getting sick and tired of everyone making fun of warforged people. 'Hahaa, he’s a warforged. Hahaha he’s a warforged! Hahahaha!'

Really, that’s funny. Yeah okay, haha. Hahaha. I’m being called a robot every single day in the guild. Every day of my life. And I’ve contemplated suicide and all sorts of things, IT P****S ME OFF! WARFORGED PEOPLE DO HAVE SOULS! Alright? I’m a warforged, I got composite plating, I have a docent, and I’m proud of it! Alright? I consider robot a very slanderous word, a demeaning word, and I’m tired of it. I’m tired of it. Y’know, everyone else gets respect… drow, elves, dwarves, everyone. Robots, why do robots have to be put down so much? Like really, what’s so different besides our composite plating? Huh? Really, what is SO FREAKIN’ DIFFERENT? TELL ME! God! ‘Cause I don’t really see much of a difference, okay? I’m a warforged, I’m forged for war, and I’m proud of it. Alright?

Everyone else, I’m sorry, I don’t mean to insult you, but, y’know, I mean, I’m proud of me. I’m proud of myself y’know? I’m proud I got composite plating, y’know? It’s who I am, House Cannith made me that way, and I have a soul! So… yeah… don’t freaking be like that okay? I have a soul! Robot and proud of it!"


Also, for those who don't catch the reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0rGdChsMAc

Tanka
05-14-2010, 11:59 AM
Holy necro, Batman!

Ashiel_Dragmire
05-14-2010, 12:01 PM
Holy necro, Batman!

That's what I do.

Ashurr
05-14-2010, 07:31 PM
wow, Necro'd in 2 places....

mediocresurgeon
05-14-2010, 08:03 PM
Even in the Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS) it mentions that it's not universally aknowledged or known if WF have souls

Examples for:
Warforged are affected by Raise Dead.
Nobody programs a Earforged's personality.

Examples against:
Warforged are not turned into wraiths when slain by them.
Warforged returned by Raise Dead never remember having an afterlife.

prodONEg
05-14-2010, 08:45 PM
Logically, in the game of DDO, WF do have souls, otherwise they could not wield/channel divine powers and they could not be Clerics or Favored Souls.

As far as the campaign setting, a few others have already posted references to documented evidence to support both sides.

I played a WF Paladin in a recent PnP campaign and likened him having a soul to any other sentient race. He could commune with his deity and was granted divine powers just as anyone else (and from Amaunator, not the Lord of Blades).

The belief that he was created by a Cannith forge is small-minded. Yes, literally, he was created in a forge, but, literally, other races are created in a womb. Does that mean that these other beings' mothers are their creators? No. Similarly, a WF has an ultimate Creator that is beyond the physical means of its assembly.

bigolbear
05-20-2010, 03:44 PM
greetings meatbags - and fellow members of the master race.

my name is crazydiamond and i am a veteran adventurer and arcane researcher from a far land (england to be precise)

several years ago i decided to answer the question: do warforge have souls?
This was in the time that shavarath was becoming coterminius with ebberon.

I conducted multiple experiments on trapped souls to ascertain both the usefulness of the spell, and what materials would be needed to trap various creatures. And further how any or all of these souls could be used in binding and crafting. my results were posted on the 'crafting' and 'magic' sections of the European forum.

Unfortunately i dont have a copy of my findings to hand but i will sumarise critical findings with some interesting conclusions.

critical findings:
1. golems and constructs such as the iron defenders DO NOT have souls.
2. warforge DO have souls.
3. undead DO have souls.
4. Vulkorim DO have souls.
5. outsiders DO have souls although the nature of those souls is different from non outsiders.
6. The nature of the soul (as proved by trapping and examination) is dependant on the physical form - not the origin of the soul. For example a drow soul is significantly different from a scorpion soul which is different again from a vulkorim soul. Further more the soul of a zombie dwarf is different form that of living dwarf - a living dwarf and living elf have noticeably different souls but a zombie dwarf and zombie elf have almost indistinguishable souls.

Conclusion:
assuming that the warforge creation process binds an already existing life force (soul) to the metal, stone and livewood body then that soul is then metamorphosed by the process becoming a unique warforge soul in the process.

assuming that the manufacture process does not involve binding an already existing soul then the process of creation causes a soul to come into being to fit the body.

As golems are also maunfactured but do not have souls, we can safely assume that the warforge creation process either binds an existing soul to the new form or creates a soul along with the body.

In conclusion the physical form and life experience determines the nature of the soul as it inhabits the body - this is true for all creatures.

from my studies so far i theorise that warforge are infact one of the following.
1. bound metamorphosed outsiders.
2. bound metamorphosed petitioners (living creatures that have passed on)
3. a unique form of undead.
4. a unique form of abberation.

for any one interested in continuing this research plz contact my apprentice (cobolt of orien server) as i was sadly not allowed to change lands...

GhoulsTouch
05-20-2010, 03:57 PM
The dreamed things break away from the dreamer to become independent, seperate uproots from the concious being allowed to evolve and give shape to themselves. They are concious seperate entities that poke at their maker with tongues sticking out, these seeds of the mind. What if you seeded such things in vessels such as the forged? What if they could no longer take shape but into only that which they were magically cast? Thus in finding conciousness, then also form in an identity concrete.

Ashiel_Dragmire
06-13-2010, 12:26 AM
Warforged are built, fleshlings are born? Is there a significant difference between the two processes that gives one a soul and not the other?

zorander6
06-13-2010, 01:01 AM
The only creatures I've found so far that have no soul and are very creepy are clowns.....

Ghoste
06-13-2010, 01:05 AM
Warforged are built, fleshlings are born? Is there a significant difference between the two processes that gives one a soul and not the other?
Fleshlings are built before they are born. Birth is merely the process of exiting their biological forge (the womb).

I would put forth the argument that by logically following all the criteria for what defines something as biological, that the creation forges are also biological given that their end result is to take many smaller inanimate components and combine them into a living whole.

Anyone who disagrees will need to demonstrate the difference between all other recognized organic life forms and their methods of reproducing and how warforged reproduce. I'll bet for any difference someone attempts to point out in warforged, I can point out a parallel in some conventional organic lifeform.

lekkus
06-13-2010, 04:18 AM
Of course WF have souls. Just follow the yellow road! ;)

Otherworld
06-13-2010, 04:39 AM
The only creatures I've found so far that have no soul and are very creepy are clowns.....

http://karmelblume.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/clown.jpg

He has clearly no soul.

EDIT: Why aren't my IMG tags working? Did they change it?

Irinis
06-13-2010, 04:51 AM
Player WF have soulstones, so they must have souls.

darkronnie
06-19-2010, 06:27 AM
i would like to point to page 16 in Races of Ebberon

The Treaty of Thronehold gave warforged their freedom,
but only after great debate. House Cannith and Thrane
argued ardently that warforged were not living creatures
because they do not possess souls. Their evidence for this
was that warforged cannot become undead by any known
method, not even ghosts or shadows. They are immune
to energy drain, and no one knows of a warforged soul
in Dolurrh, the Realm of the Dead. Breland argued that
because warforged can be raised and resurrected, they
must have souls. Of course, House Cannith and Thrane
countered that no warforged brought back from death told
tales of any kind of afterlife.
In the end, the Question of Souls, as that portion of
the negotiations came to be known, was left unanswered.
Warforged were freed because they could exhibit thought
and free will. Today many people continue to think of warforged
as creatures without souls, and citizens of Thrane
often refer to warforged as “the soulless.”

J3K
06-21-2010, 08:37 AM
Henchman 21: Do we have souls?
Henchman 24: Yes, but they're not quite souls, but in Earth's general idea, everything has a soul.
Henchman 21: ****, so I guess we should become vegetarian.
Henchman 24: No, like everything living has a soul, even spinach. You can't win.
Henchman 21: So that's a problem.
Henchman 24: Here's something. You know how people cry about aborting babies because of their soul? Turns out you don't get a soul until you're like one.
Henchman 21: So, weird, one. Really?
Henchman 24: Or maybe six months. I forget. Either way, you're just this little crying, pooing monster blob until you get your soul.