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View Full Version : Raids- The new dynamic



Largo_Kyber
12-07-2007, 10:55 AM
First off, let me say that I am in no way exposing or revealing an exploit. I am a casual gamer and usually only play for a few hours a week. For the last two days I noticed that every raid group I join is using some "new game mechanics" that were not there previously. I am in a guild but I play so rarely that I usually have to resort to PUG's. I enjoy the game but want to respect the rules. Every raid group that I've joined recently seems to be using the "new raid mechainics". My question is: Although I would prefer to group in a PUG that plays it straight up, am I exposing myself to being banned for joining a PUG that may be using "less than honest" tactics? Should I immediately leave group? I feel kinda stuck in the middle. I don't want to cheat but if I want to raid then I generally have to join a PUG that may be cheating the game mechanics. I've received a warning in the past for this type of thing and was deeply offended because I am not playing to break rules or find exploits but to simply have a good time. I'm just wondering how I should handle it because I am getting pretty frustrated by this game and the fact that I have to walk on eggshells in the forums and while trying to get my loot.

Thanks!!!

KoboldKiller
12-07-2007, 10:57 AM
If it feels wrong or you know it's wrong drop group and move on.

Aspenor
12-07-2007, 10:58 AM
First off, let me say that I am in no way exposing or revealing an exploit. I am a casual gamer and usually only play for a few hours a week. For the last two days I noticed that every raid group I join is using some "new game mechanics" that were not there previously. I am in a guild but I play so rarely that I usually have to resort to PUG's. I enjoy the game but want to respect the rules. Every raid group that I've joined recently seems to be using the "new raid mechainics". My question is: Although I would prefer to group in a PUG that plays it straight up, am I exposing myself to being banned for joining a PUG that may be using "less than honest" tactics? Should I immediately leave group? I feel kinda stuck in the middle. I don't want to cheat but if I want to raid then I generally have to join a PUG that may be cheating the game mechanics. I've received a warning in the past for this type of thing and was deeply offended because I am not playing to break rules or find exploits but to simply have a good time. I'm just wondering how I should handle it because I am getting pretty frustrated by this game and the fact that I have to walk on eggshells in the forums and while trying to get my loot.

Thanks!!!

Drop party. That's my suggestion.

binnsr
12-07-2007, 10:59 AM
yes. The morale high-ground is more important than loot in a video game.

If the pug you joined states that they will be using 'the new mechanic', politely excuse yourself and drop group.

Impaqt
12-07-2007, 10:59 AM
I raid a lot.. EVen some pugs, and have not seen any "New and Questionable" tactic in any of them.. Unless your talking about DQ... I havent done that much since the changes went in.

woodspider
12-07-2007, 11:03 AM
Tell them not to. it works for me.

jakeelala
12-07-2007, 11:05 AM
HEYA DEVS,

Do in-game GM's or whoever is watching have the ability to see who on a raid is exploiting and who is not? Or if one person is doing it does it look to them like everyone is? This poster makes a very valid point, Khyber is rotten with people exploiting, but without explaining any specific exploits everyone knows that you can choose whether or not to participate, and I want to know if the GM's can recognize that, if they're snooping, or if they just wholesale punish everyone in the raid....

If I've said too much just delete my post, I tried to be as discrete as possible without breaking rules but it's a fair question...

arminius
12-07-2007, 11:05 AM
My rule is: if anything that people are doing looks like a bigger exploit than casting spells through the door in Tempest Spine, drop.

That seems like a pretty reasonable threshold to me.

_

Largo_Kyber
12-07-2007, 11:09 AM
I think I'm almost to the point where, if I have to drop group because of these silly playstyles then maybe I just need to cancel my subscription and move along. The only thing that I am actually working towards right now is my 20th completion on the raids.

Jhoran
12-07-2007, 11:13 AM
i really wish the dev's would make a stand on this issue.

if nothing else give the players some kind of statement

i said this in another thread (it's now gone); but

i believe the Dev's should release the following statement:

if we see you exploiting a raid - all raid loot will be removed from your account and all raid tomes will be un-applied and destroyed.
or those characters who are exploiting will be deleted with all their gear etc.

i would expect that people wouldn't be so open or eager to exploit...and to share knowledge of exploits.

arminius
12-07-2007, 11:14 AM
I must have the best guild in the world. Nobody in my guild is doing anything at all like what people appear to be talking about.

I remember a time when a guy was selling his bugged 50 Dwarven Throwers and got simply blasted in shame by his fellow guildies. I don't remember if he left then or soon after.

The bottom line is that if it is as big an exploit as people say, it is like doing a crossword with the answers open beside you, while looking at them. Hardly seems fun to me, or that there would be any purpose to it at all.

_

binnsr
12-07-2007, 11:16 AM
i believe the Dev's should release the following statement:

if we see you exploiting a raid - all raid loot will be removed from your account and all raid tomes will be un-applied and destroyed.
or those characters who are exploiting will be deleted with all their gear etc.

I could get behind this.

Largo_Kyber
12-07-2007, 11:23 AM
If the pug you joined states that they will be using 'the new mechanic', politely excuse yourself and drop group.

This is part of the problem. The first Pug I joined did not say "We are using the new raid mechanic". They simply did it. Without revealing too much, I think it is the party leader who takes these actions and as a party member, I had no idea what was going on.

Zenako
12-07-2007, 11:24 AM
While I do not raid anywhere near as much as some people, there is often a nice gray area in those quests between being clever and using game mechanics to your advantage and finding a mistake in quest design and circumventing quest limits.

The clear cut cases are easy to know and can readily be identified. Those are also often easy for Turbine to fix and they do.

Without going into specifics, each case is different. Most of the quests can probably be handled with "normal" routine approaches by experienced groups. I have seen groups where someone wanted to try something they heard worked better, and we usually all ended up dead. Sometimes what worked better was the (oops forgot to mention) incredible twitch skills of those other players.

The same type of thing could be both exploit or clever. For example, lets say you could get to a spot where none of the mobs could attack you, but you could attack them. If this spot was a graphical anomoly in the middle of the floor, that would be an exploit in my mind. If this spot was a high ledge that required over the top Jump skill and twitch skills to reach that would be clever play. Kind of like some quests where the floor drops out. If you are out standing there you also fall down and meet the mobs, but if you hold back to the edge, you can then cast spells or range the mobs to death, often with immpunity since many of them lack ranged attacks.

BlueLightBandit
12-07-2007, 11:26 AM
i really wish the dev's would make a stand on this issue.

if nothing else give the players some kind of statement

i said this in another thread (it's now gone); but

i believe the Dev's should release the following statement:

if we see you exploiting a raid - all raid loot will be removed from your account and all raid tomes will be un-applied and destroyed.
or those characters who are exploiting will be deleted with all their gear etc.

i would expect that people wouldn't be so open or eager to exploit...and to share knowledge of exploits.

How do you know they're not?

Jaywade
12-07-2007, 11:26 AM
I think the question you have to ask yourself is it a exploit or Cheesy tatics ...if it's cheese , well I can live w/ cheese as long as it doesn't slow the game down...... exploits are funny thing casuse it made be just poor design, bad AI, whatever....I remember when bam came out peole had a tough time w/ the blackguards so they would kite them down to the rocks and burn them safely form up on the rocks....boring as hell, took forever, I hated it (but at the time few tanks good hit the blackguards w/ decent enough DPS) some folks called it a exploit I though it was cheesy, and just using the area (we did that all the time in PnP) so if it's cheese I would stay ....defineing what is cheese and what is a exploit is soemtimes hard to do

jakeelala
12-07-2007, 11:27 AM
WT??? Did you just call the devs Nazi's?

ok no they aren't Nazi's that's not what I meant to say.

I was trying to highlight that the attitude that they are taking is leaving a lot of people in the dark, people who dont know what's going on, people who don't know what is ok and isn't ok, people who are bad and people who are good.

I might not have said it the best way possible, but I hope what I meant is clearer. We really do need a statement and a stand on this from the devs. It seems to be getting out of control. I just renewed my subscription after a 6 month break to see if things were better. No I'm back and it seems like things are spinning out of control.

I hope they do or say something soon...And not just banning people who have knowledge of this because its everywhere and almost impossible not to see it sooner or later. I logged in after 6 MONTHS and within 1 hour of being online I knew about this nonsense.

narizue
12-07-2007, 11:30 AM
i really wish the dev's would make a stand on this issue.

if nothing else give the players some kind of statement

i said this in another thread (it's now gone); but

i believe the Dev's should release the following statement:

if we see you exploiting a raid - all raid loot will be removed from your account and all raid tomes will be un-applied and destroyed.
or those characters who are exploiting will be deleted with all their gear etc.



QFT.

Largo_Kyber
12-07-2007, 11:34 AM
I think the question you have to ask yourself is it a exploit or Cheesy tatics ...if it's cheese , well I can live w/ cheese as long as it doesn't slow the game down...... exploits are funny thing casuse it made be just poor design, bad AI, whatever....I remember when bam came out peole had a tough time w/ the blackguards so they would kite them down to the rocks and burn them safely form up on the rocks....boring as hell, took forever, I hated it (but at the time few tanks good hit the blackguards w/ decent enough DPS) some folks called it a exploit I though it was cheesy, and just using the area (we did that all the time in PnP) so if it's cheese I would stay ....defineing what is cheese and what is a exploit is soemtimes hard to do

Well the issue that I am talking about really does not fall into either of these categories. It is really a quest timer issue. We are not using cheesy tactics or exploiting a spell or safe spot. This is an exploit for SOME of the party members which can be determined by the party leader. I can't be more specifc or I will risk being banned. My question is really: Will I be guilty by association with these groups even if I do not use the exploit?

Aspenor
12-07-2007, 11:35 AM
if this helps your decision, at least 1 person has been banned for using this.

i only know that from detailed reading of deleted threads.

Jhoran
12-07-2007, 11:46 AM
How do you know they're not?

i'm pretty sure that if someone's high level toon was deleted...or someone had all their raid loot taken away....

that it would have been reported here by themselves or their friends with some sort of claim-

"i didn't know"

"i didn't mean to"

"i'm a victim"

etc etc

SteeleTrueheart
12-07-2007, 11:56 AM
I know the issue. (I will not explain it if you ask so dont bother)

It is an exploit that is very well known to be an exploit of the highest order and not just cheese.

I still join groups but I specifically do not get involved in the exploit. If I get banned for just being in a group with others that exploit so be it, it is a risk you take.

Now I would suggest everyone stops making multiple threads about this topic or we are going to see a few temp bans being thrown around. Even insinuating about an exploit is against the rules.

CSFurious
12-07-2007, 11:58 AM
so at the end of the day who really cares what individual players & groups are doing

what they do has no affect at all

Turbine needs to police its game better as it is human nature to break the rules

Jhoran
12-07-2007, 11:58 AM
i think turbine needs to accept that ignoring these issues and hoping they go away is not an acceptable solution to some of the players..

Largo_Kyber
12-07-2007, 12:07 PM
Now I would suggest everyone stops making multiple threads about this topic or we are going to see a few temp bans being thrown around. Even insinuating about an exploit is against the rules.

I understand the need to keep these things out of the forums, but if a particualr exploit is affecting my enjoyment of the game then I have a right to ask these type of questions. If Turbine wants to ban me for posting on this issue then that is their right. But I will not sit back and say nothing about the my play experience being screwed up on a daily basis for the past week because I might risk being banned.

I join the wrong PUG- I risk getting banned
I post on the forums about being banned for joining the wrong pug and I risk getting banned

This seems a bit ridiculous for someone who is simply trying to play a game for fun.

GHOSTRYDER
12-07-2007, 12:09 PM
I understand the need to keep these things out of the forums, but if a particualr exploit is affecting my enjoyment of the game then I have a right to ask these type of questions. If Turbine wants to ban me for posting on this issue then that is their right. But I will not sit back and say nothing about the my play experience being screwed up on a daily basis for the past week because I might risk being banned.

I join the wrong PUG- I risk getting banned
I post on the forums about being banned for joining the wrong pug and I risk getting banned

This seems a bit ridiculous for someone who is simply trying to play a game for fun.

well if you just want to know, and arent wanting to start a public discussion about it, you could simply pm one of them and ask... ive never tried this and dont know how they are at replying to pm's, but i can tell you that getting your question answered here in this thread is not very likely

sultro
12-07-2007, 12:28 PM
This is part of the problem. The first Pug I joined did not say "We are using the new raid mechanic". They simply did it. Without revealing too much, I think it is the party leader who takes these actions and as a party member, I had no idea what was going on.

thats the way it was for me when i did it, suspected something though. I filed a report immediatly, and made an additional comment after on the ticket(once i saw the effects). and did not take advantage of it, but i was worried about getting banned even so. would have been a lot easier if i knew exactly what was going on, then i would have just opted out. but everythig is such a big secret around here...

next day Quiet Death's MOTD was that anyone known to be exploiting would have all their chars removed from guild. So i'm pretty happy with my guild too. want to play it fair? we raid reaver twice a week on sunday and thursday. Kyber 9pm central once in a while theres even an open slot, come join us. other raids depending on availablity but usually 2 or 3 a week

Barumar
12-07-2007, 12:50 PM
I understand the need to keep these things out of the forums, but if a particualr exploit is affecting my enjoyment of the game then I have a right to ask these type of questions. If Turbine wants to ban me for posting on this issue then that is their right. But I will not sit back and say nothing about the my play experience being screwed up on a daily basis for the past week because I might risk being banned.

I join the wrong PUG- I risk getting banned
I post on the forums about being banned for joining the wrong pug and I risk getting banned

This seems a bit ridiculous for someone who is simply trying to play a game for fun.

I think this issue needs to be addressed by Turbine ASAP! It is out of control and has been for over a week. I think they are cramping down a bit (one perma-Ban I know of), but I think they need to do more!

In the mean time, look for LFM's like our Guild's last night: "Reaver Raid - Elite - for Completion!". We were very clear up front what we were going to do - and NOT do!

Personally, until they fix this I would NOT raid in a PUG without asking the Party Leader before the Raid started if they were going to do anything "imporper", as you could find yourself put into a position that could possible get you in trouble (or have guilt) without being able to help it.

Barumar

adamkatt
12-07-2007, 12:55 PM
Is this somehow different than Ray Ray the old mechanic?

Largo_Kyber
12-07-2007, 12:59 PM
Yes. The new mechanic is named Skip. ;)

Sambvca
12-07-2007, 01:02 PM
18. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world.


Would someone please tell us/me in black & white that this is an unintended advantage? I haven't seen Turbine comment on this all week. For all I know you intended to put this in the game.

Then tell me how you do it so I won't accidently find out.

Gratch
12-07-2007, 01:55 PM
I will only say that a group of 5 players on Lhazaar got all their toons deleted and their accounts banned for cheating the raid timers.

Is it worth it?

binnsr
12-07-2007, 01:59 PM
18. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world.


Would someone please tell us/me in black & white that this is an unintended advantage? I haven't seen Turbine comment on this all week. For all I know you intended to put this in the game.

Then tell me how you do it so I won't accidently find out.

There have been at least half-a-dozen deleted threads related to the alleged new mechanic (Skip, you said his name was?) in the last day, so I'd say that Turbine's being as obtusely clear as they always are about the supposed situation.

Sambvca
12-07-2007, 02:03 PM
Could you tell me how to read a deleted thread, so I may find out what all the Hoopla is about? Or, do they delete them so only a portion of the community knows what is going on?

GHOSTRYDER
12-07-2007, 02:03 PM
Could you tell me how to read a deleted thread, so I may find out what all the Hoopla is about? Or, do they delete them so only a portion of the community knows what is going on?

read it BEFORE it gets deleted, that's the only way

Tolero
12-07-2007, 02:06 PM
We're aware of the issue and will be addressing it. In the mean time, please do not communicate game errors on the public forums.