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Cold_Stele
12-05-2007, 08:22 AM
It's not a matter of debate that Barbs in the current game are pretty much untouchable by the other melees in terms of DPS.

Although some of this is down to the pnp core rules (which I'm a huge fan of), the Enhancement system has taken this advantage and grossly intensified it to the point that Barbs have become overpowered.

Although Extended Rage and Power Rage all play their parts, the thing I have the most trouble with (and which I see as being the main cause of the unbalance between the other melees) is Critical Rage (+2 to crit range, stacks with everything).

To restore balance I'd suggest one of the three following changes -

1. Drop it altogether - it has no place in PnP and is purely something conceived of by the Devs

2. Remove it's ability to stack with the Imp Crit feat (so a Barb would still crit on 18-20 with a greataxe, making it superior to Imp Crit for them).

3. Now this is far my favorite as it won't nerf barbs at all - drop Critical Rage, introduce the Barb's/Ftr's/Pally's/Ranger's Improved Critical I and II Enhancements.

The Enhancement would add up to +2 to the critcal range for ALL the melee classes. Prereqs would be the Imp Crit feat (current levels for the Barb enhancements are 11 and 14 - keep these the same?)

Barbs would be unaffected as the good ones spend the entire quest Raged anyway.

The other melees get to compete a little.

Any thoughts?

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 08:25 AM
If you think that fighters cannot compete with Barabrians then you play with the wrong fighters.

That being said, Paladins and Rangers should NOT have the same DPS as Fighters and Barbarians, and arguably fighters should have less than Barbarians (but not to the same degree as rangers and paladins).

Cold_Stele
12-05-2007, 08:34 AM
If you think that fighters cannot compete with Barabrians then you play with the wrong fighters.

I have 32 STR, all the Wpn Spec feats, THF feats, Madstone Boots, Bloodstone, Rage pots etc (apart from a +3 tome and the Scourge Choker/Blood Rage item I can't possibly increase my DPS).

The max damage I've seen on a crit from my SOS with STR at 36 is 162, crit range 15-20.

Any Barbs out there who can't beat that?

hennebux
12-05-2007, 08:38 AM
I agree with op the barb crit range thing is a little ridiculous.Especially when you factor in wound of punct.I'm not sure how to tone it down but believe it needs consideration.

DareDelvis
12-05-2007, 09:26 AM
A couple thoughts, some helpful, some not:

I have played a barbarian since the game went retail...and there was a time when I could not compete DPS with fighters (remember +10 to hit action boost?)

That changed and it became more balanced. I now have two pure barbarians, a TWF and the original THF. As a barbarian, my main job is DPS...the other fighter classes have other advantages and skills...I will not go so far as to say roles, as that will lead to the old cookie-cutter, etc debate. My barbs can't use wands or scrolls (sure some one may pump up umd, but that must come at the expense of some other stat and skill) or cast spells. My barbs cannot take multiple and varied feats; each "had" to pick a fighting style and use the limited feats to maximize that line.

So, to me the crit rage is "fair." It is only, until the level cap increase, for those who go pure barb (at least crit rage II is). It allows the barbarian to do what it does best...deal damage.

Now, a last point or question...what does it matter? When this game went live, it seemed clear that unless you had the to-hit AB even making contact with mobs on higher difficulties was hard...my early barb had power attack but could rarely use it on elite settings in difficult (level 10 :o quests). Then they changed the AC and HP of most of the monsters and got rid of that incarnation of the AB. The field appeared more even and all melee classes could contribute.

Is the problem kill count? Any well played class should be able to contribute to a party's success, and, personally, that is what is important to me. Of course, people play for different reasons. One melee class is always going to have the potential to the most damage...this has changed over the past 21 months...and it might again.

Now, maybe I am biased because I have two of these barbs, but any one is always welcome to roll any character...

This crit rage does not seem to be effecting the balance of the game in any way...

Anyway, have a great day.

Mercules
12-05-2007, 09:31 AM
Sooooo...

Does anyone else remember the days of, "Why play a Barbarian because Fighters are so much more powerful? I blame the enhancements!":D

Shrazkil
12-05-2007, 09:31 AM
It's not a matter of debate that Barbs in the current game are pretty much untouchable by the other melees in terms of DPS.

Although some of this is down to the pnp core rules (which I'm a huge fan of), the Enhancement system has taken this advantage and grossly intensified it to the point that Barbs have become overpowered.

Although Extended Rage and Power Rage all play their parts, the thing I have the most trouble with (and which I see as being the main cause of the unbalance between the other melees) is Critical Rage (+2 to crit range, stacks with everything).

To restore balance I'd suggest one of the three following changes -

1. Drop it altogether - it has no place in PnP and is purely something conceived of by the Devs

2. Remove it's ability to stack with the Imp Crit feat (so a Barb would still crit on 18-20 with a greataxe, making it superior to Imp Crit for them).

3. Now this is far my favorite as it won't nerf barbs at all - drop Critical Rage, introduce the Barb's/Ftr's/Pally's/Ranger's Improved Critical I and II Enhancements.

The Enhancement would add up to +2 to the critcal range for ALL the melee classes. Prereqs would be the Imp Crit feat (current levels for the Barb enhancements are 11 and 14 - keep these the same?)

Barbs would be unaffected as the good ones spend the entire quest Raged anyway.

The other melees get to compete a little.

Any thoughts?

Option 3 is similar to an earlier suggestion i made. I think the other melee classes should get something to come close to this, but not equal to it.

Fighter specialized crit I , Rangers Bow Crit I , Paladin Smiting critical I and II . ETC.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 09:37 AM
Fighters are still extreemly powerful, their power is in their diversity.

While Barbarians can specialize in a moderatly high degree in one thing, fighters can specialize very high in multiple things.

Barbs are good at one thing, DPS, thats about it, if you do not include all the HP's.

Fighters have Tower shields, 3x the feats, fighter only feats, generally just as high to hit, and with boosts very comparable dps.

There is a trade off.

Offense ability vs. Defensive ability and many feats. not to say fighters can't be very offensive.

GHOSTRYDER
12-05-2007, 09:45 AM
It's not a matter of debate that Barbs in the current game are pretty much untouchable by the other melees in terms of DPS.

Although some of this is down to the pnp core rules (which I'm a huge fan of), the Enhancement system has taken this advantage and grossly intensified it to the point that Barbs have become overpowered.

Although Extended Rage and Power Rage all play their parts, the thing I have the most trouble with (and which I see as being the main cause of the unbalance between the other melees) is Critical Rage (+2 to crit range, stacks with everything).

To restore balance I'd suggest one of the three following changes -

1. Drop it altogether - it has no place in PnP and is purely something conceived of by the Devs

2. Remove it's ability to stack with the Imp Crit feat (so a Barb would still crit on 18-20 with a greataxe, making it superior to Imp Crit for them).

3. Now this is far my favorite as it won't nerf barbs at all - drop Critical Rage, introduce the Barb's/Ftr's/Pally's/Ranger's Improved Critical I and II Enhancements.

The Enhancement would add up to +2 to the critcal range for ALL the melee classes. Prereqs would be the Imp Crit feat (current levels for the Barb enhancements are 11 and 14 - keep these the same?)

Barbs would be unaffected as the good ones spend the entire quest Raged anyway.

The other melees get to compete a little.

Any thoughts?

make a barb :rolleyes:

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 09:47 AM
Any thoughts?At the very least, Critical Rage I and II are too close together in level. It is too powerful an enhancement for L14. Make it tier I at L11 (as it is now) and tier II at L16.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 09:48 AM
make a barb :rolleyes:

No.

I want all the bonus feats of a fighter and the DPS of a barbarian. :eek::rolleyes:

/vomit

Nothing can be balanced anymore, I swear, everybody is just like me want me want......

Either it is rangers wanting STWF for free, or fighters wanting barbarian enhancements.....

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 09:49 AM
At the very least, Critical Rage I and II are too close together in level. It is too powerful an enhancement for L14. Make it tier I at L11 (as it is now) and tier II at L16.

It is fine as is.

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 09:54 AM
It is fine as is.Oh come now, Cow. You can't be serious. It's a huge damage boost on normal weapons. Add an expanded crit range weapon like Carnifex, SoS, or Deathnip and it's unreal. 13-20/x3! 15-20/x4! Those values should not be in the game.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 09:57 AM
Oh come now, Cow. You can't be serious. It's a huge damage boost on normal weapons. Add an expanded crit range weapon like Carnifex, SoS, or Deathnip and it's unreal. 13-20/x3! 15-20/x4! Those values should not be in the game.

Barbarians are a DPS class. That is what they do....., heck that is all they do.

Porkchop
12-05-2007, 10:01 AM
Barbarians are a DPS class. That is what they do....., heck that is all they do.

This whole thread is about competing for kill counts. Fighters, Paladins and Rangers are very versatile in what they can do. They should not be able to out-DPS a barbarian.

hennebux
12-05-2007, 10:01 AM
I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.

Porkchop
12-05-2007, 10:03 AM
I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.

ROFL, It has been proven?

philo
12-05-2007, 10:04 AM
You do realize untill mod 3 most thought barbarians were underpowered compared to fighters/pallys right? The devs realized this and gave the barbarians some much needed love.

Im sure you also realize the crit rage enhancments had a much lower lvl requirement when they came out on risia and have had their lvl requirements adjusted up already correct?

Not to mention you say one possibility would be to raise the lvl required..and rank 2 of it is already 13...if it was raised to 14 it wouldnt change anything really.

Money says you have a fighter or pally? I could list all the benefits fighters and pallys get but i wont go there. You recommend to give fighters/pallys an improved crit enhancment? That is always on?, not dependent on something like rage and to remove barb crit rage?

Besides the fact that giving barbs crit rage makes more sence from a class standpoint, you always have the option to roll a barb. Im guessing in the next mod or 2 another melee class starts to stand out as the one everyone wants to play...but then people tend to like to do damage. If the melee classes are implemented correctly the barb should be that class...unless the rogues can get alot of sneak attacks/backstabs in:)

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:05 AM
I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.

Funny, in my opinion a fighters job isnt to get kills..........

Had you wanted to make a character that had the opprotunity to get a lot of kills, you would have made a Barbarian.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:05 AM
ROFL, It has been proven?

Thank you. LOL.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:07 AM
You do realize untill mod 3 most thought barbarians were underpowered compared to fighters/pallys right? The devs realized this and gave the barbarians some much needed love.

Im sure you also realize the crit rage enhancments had a much lower lvl requirement when they came out on risia and have had their lvl requirements adjusted up already correct?

Not to mention you say one possibility would be to raise the lvl required..and rank 2 of it is already 13...if it was raised to 14 it wouldnt change anything really.

Money says you have a fighter or pally? I could list all the benefits fighters and pallys get but i wont go there. You recommend to give fighters/pallys an improved crit enhancment? That is always on?, not dependent on something like rage and to remove barb crit rage?

Besides the fact that giving barbs crit rage makes more sence from a class standpoint, you always have the option to roll a barb. Im guessing in the next mod or 2 another melee class starts to stand out as the one everyone wants to play...but then people tend to like to do damage. If the melee classes are implemented correctly the barb should be that class...unless the rogues can get alot of sneak attacks/backstabs in:)

Wait a second, you mean there is a class out there that has backstabbing and my fighter doesnt??????

Nerf Rogues. There is no way a non fighter should get to do 7d6 "extra" damage and my fighter cant. It is patently unfair.

:eek::rolleyes:

Porkchop
12-05-2007, 10:07 AM
Sometimes I get half the kills with my barbarian when I play with certain sorcerers. They must be overpowered. Oh wait that is a different thread.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-05-2007, 10:11 AM
I have 32 STR, all the Wpn Spec feats, THF feats, Madstone Boots, Bloodstone, Rage pots etc (apart from a +3 tome and the Scourge Choker/Blood Rage item I can't possibly increase my DPS).

The max damage I've seen on a crit from my SOS with STR at 36 is 162, crit range 15-20.

Any Barbs out there who can't beat that?

That's on one factor... you need to balance abilities overall. And fighers have access to enhancements and bonus feats barbs don't. The balance is fine overall.

Missing_Minds
12-05-2007, 10:14 AM
Barbarians are a DPS class. That is what they do....., heck that is all they do.

they can also make healers cry and whimper. :)

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:15 AM
they can also make healers cry and whimper. :)

not mine........ now when they start inching over the 600 HP mark, I may have issues, until then though, it is all a blue bar to me.

hennebux
12-05-2007, 10:28 AM
I hear alot of sarcasm and people saying what the "role" of a barbarian is.How other classes have all these other cool enhancements that make them balanced.I stand by the assertion 13-20 crit ranges are pretty much overpowered.

As far as the argument of proving it out... go to the barbarian class board and read a thread called results:fighter vs barbarian.By ren.

I know what classes I play and they are varied (including barb), but I'm pretty sure most repliers on this thread are protecting their interest by hoping to keep things the way they are.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:32 AM
I hear alot of sarcasm and people saying what the "role" of a barbarian is.How other classes have all these other cool enhancements that make them balanced.I stand by the assertion 13-20 crit ranges are pretty much overpowered.

As far as the argument of proving it out... go to the barbarian class board and read a thread called results:fighter vs barbarian.By ren.

I know what classes I play and they are varied (including barb), but I'm pretty sure most repliers on this thread are protecting their interest by hoping to keep things the way they are.

yup because my level 4 barbarian sure loves that extra crit range...... :rolleyes:

but my level 13 fighter now,yeah. he sure does love using his cure crit wands.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 10:36 AM
Nothing can be balanced anymore, I swear, everybody is just like me want me want......

Nothing can be balanced any more. I swear, everybody is just like "ZOMG DON'T TOUCH MY STUFF. WAAAH!"





:rolleyes:

Cruzer
12-05-2007, 10:36 AM
I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.


Crit on a 14 (13 usually) or better - when raged. Granted most barbarians take enough enhancements that they have about 20-25 minutes of rage per shrine by the time they get improved crit II, but its not a constant thing. The barbarians only saving grace is that they can usually kill things before their hps run out. Just because you made a fighter that you thought was ultra cool and now you're seeing barbs outkilling you, doesn't mean barbs should get nerfed. I've had my AC fighter get more kills than some barbarians of an equal level. Its all in the person and their EQ.

Borror0
12-05-2007, 10:36 AM
I think the solution to this is to add more DPS feats, right now, a DPS THF build wants:


Power Attack
Two-Handed Fighting
Improved Two-Handed Fighting
Greater Two-Handed Fighting
Improved Critical: Slashing


That is all there is, no hard choice. No scratching there head. Now, if they would more feats to add to fighter's DPS, we wouln't be having this thread at all.

Right now, fighter still got loads of feat that they can spend on stuff like Improved Trip or Stunnning Blow, still keeping them effective. They also have no alignement restriction, allowing them to multiclass freely into paladin, which allows better save.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:38 AM
Nothing can be balanced any more. I swear, everybody is just like "ZOMG DON'T TOUCH MY STUFF. WAAAH!"





:rolleyes:

Give a reasonable suggestion and I would be game to hear it.....

So far the only request I have seen is for a permanent buff to Fighters cirt numbers, and heck even barbarians dont get that.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 10:41 AM
Give a reasonable suggestion and I would be game to hear it.....

No, apparently you're not (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1458756&postcount=12).

Leaving the enhancements exactly the way they are but increasing the level you have to be to get them is, perhaps, the single most reasonable suggestion you could give on this topic. It doesn't even nerf the enhancements, just pushes them back a little.

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 10:42 AM
Barbarians are a DPS class. That is what they do....., heck that is all they do.Barbs get that advantage from STR and CON while raging and from Barb Power Attack. They really don't need more criticals to have the best DPS. In addition, they have more HP, better Fort and Will saves (even better Reflex in small bursts using Imp Uncanny Dodge), and better shield blocking (in bursts using DR boost).

I've got to adjust my previous statement. Leave Crit Rage where it is. But, I agree with the above statement that Critical Rage should not stack with Keen/Impact/ImpCrit. Leave it in game as an enhancement alternative to Improved Critical. A greataxe with Crit Rage II 18-20/x3 is still nice. Sword of Shadows would only be 16-20/x3, so is better off with ImpCrit:Slash for 15-20/x3.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:44 AM
No, apparently you're not (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1458756&postcount=12).

Leaving the enhancements exactly the way they are but increasing the level you have to be to get them is, perhaps, the single most reasonable suggestion you could give on this topic. It doesn't even nerf the enhancements, just pushes them back a little.

But it has been pushed back once already.....

That would be like telling fighters, oh since all your extra feats are a bit front heavy, we decided to keep the number the same you just wont start getting them until level 7.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 10:44 AM
But, I agree with the above statement that Critical Rage should not stack with Keen/Impact/ImpCrit. Leave it in game as an enhancement alternative to Improved Critical. A greataxe with Crit Rage II 18-20/x3 is still nice. Sword of Shadows would only be 16-20/x3, so is better off with ImpCrit:Slash for 15-20/x3.

This also seems like a reasonable suggestion, and in keeping with most other things that alter crit range (none of which stack with each other).

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 10:47 AM
This also seems like a reasonable suggestion, and in keeping with most other things that alter crit range (none of which stack with each other).Yup, I think many Barbs would like to have another feat in their build and using the enhancements allows that to happen. If they went with this plan, they would have to lower the Critical Rage level to make it comparable to ImpCrit. Perhaps tier I @ L8, tier II @ L14, and a future tier III @ L20.

If you use the Sword of Shadows (or dual wield rapiers), it's better for you to take ImpCrit at L9. But, for axe/maul/pick users, they can choose the enhancement line.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:48 AM
What I think fighters should possibly get is something akin to the Overwhelming Critical feat line but broken down into enhancements.......

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#overwhelmingCritical

When using the weapon you have selected, you deal an extra 1d6 points of bonus damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is ×3, add +2d6 points of bonus damage instead, and if the multiplier is ×4, add +3d6 points of bonus damage instead. Creatures immune to critical hits can’t be affected by this feat.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:49 AM
Yup, I think many Barbs would like to have another feat in their build and using the enhancements allows that to happen. If they went with this plan, they would have to lower the Critical Rage level to make it comparable to ImpCrit. Perhaps tier I @ L8, tier II @ L14, and a future tier III @ L20.

which is essentially asking for Barbarians to be nerfed...... that would be akin to barbarians coming here and asking for them to remove tower shields from the game because it just isnt reasonable that fighters get so much more AC for free.

hennebux
12-05-2007, 10:49 AM
I think borro is on the right track...and also I don't have a fighter out of my 8 characters so it isn't jealousy.It's hard enough to try and engender discussion with out constant flames, so why not put the heater back in it's holster.I don't see why it isn't valid to raise an issue with out everyone hitting the ultra defensive panic button.I mean take a second and ask your self is 13-20 crit range (especially on an effect wep) some what overpowered?

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 10:49 AM
What I think fighters should possibly get is something akin to the Overwhelming Critical feat line but broken down into enhancements.......

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#overwhelmingCritical

You had to go to Epic feats in order to find something comparable to Critical Rage?

Doesn't that tell you something?

Borror0
12-05-2007, 10:50 AM
This also seems like a reasonable suggestion, and in keeping with most other things that alter crit range (none of which stack with each other).

Well, enhancements stack with everything... so that would a first...:eek:

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 10:52 AM
which is essentially asking for Barbarians to be nerfed......13-20/x3 and 15-20/x4 crits hurt the game. So, yes. (And yes, I do have a Barb.) But, I am suggesting a system that has other benefits for Barbs. That's the idea behind a rebalance; you take some, you give some. ;)

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 10:57 AM
You had to go to Epic feats in order to find something comparable to Critical Rage?

Doesn't that tell you something?Total side note: Any character can get that now. It's called weapons 'of Maiming.' Maiming is better because it's untyped damage and works on all creatures, including non-crittable. And, it'd be need to have Maiming on my normal double affix weapon of choice. :)

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 10:58 AM
13-20/x3 and 15-20/x4 crits hurt the game. So, yes. (And yes, I do have a Barb.) But, I am suggesting a system that has other benefits for Barbs. That's the idea behind a rebalance; you take some, you give some. ;)


at 8 14 and 20 I would hardly call that giving.....

Now in my opinion.....

If you wanted to do it so it did not stack with the feat, then do a 4 step at 4, 8, 12 and 16, costing 1,2,3 and 4 AP.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 11:00 AM
You had to go to Epic feats in order to find something comparable to Critical Rage?

Doesn't that tell you something?

Yes it tells me that barbarians have a very nice enhancement, and I think fighters should have a nice enhancement line also.... I think everybody is forgetting the reason this enhancement was put in was so that Barbarians could finally out DPS fighters in the first place.

Paladin20
12-05-2007, 11:01 AM
I think that these enhancements actually "balance out" the "why play a barbarian" factor. Back when Fighters reigned supreme in the DPS sector, there really was no point in playing a Barbarian. Barbarians still cannot achieve nearly the AC that a Fighter can, and cannot reach the same feats. It's a reasonable trade-off. I think these enhancements are well placed because it takes a pure Barb to reach the Lv II Critical Rage. A Paladin is a defensive front-liner, a Fighter is a tactical and more offensive front-liner, and a Barbarian is just a pure offense, go nuts front-liner, and I think the current enhancements really captures the essence of each corresponding class. There's nothing for a Barbarian except for damage and a crapload of hitpoints.

hennebux
12-05-2007, 11:03 AM
If you wanted to do it so it did not stack with the feat, then do a 4 step at 4, 8, 12 and 16, costing 1,2,3 and 4 AP

Just an idea but why not start it at lvl 8 and go 12 16 with 2,3,and 4ap sounds pretty reasonable.

woodspider
12-05-2007, 11:05 AM
Can we nerf dwarven armor mastery, fighter armor mastery, human versitality(oops all ready happened), never mind, just take them all out of the game! What is the big deal? Is this some PvP thing? Or is there a good reason to want to remove it from the game? All I have seen is that it is over powering, in what way? Give details if you don't mind.

Dirac
12-05-2007, 11:06 AM
This is an interesting debate, and I'll offer the following observations, though I do not have a specific opinion on what to do with crit range.

1. The classes should be balanced and re-balanced if one gets out of line. I do remember when Barbs were the odd-melee out because AC was everything and didn't have the +10 attack boost. This was bad, but it doesn't mean that if the pendulum has swung the other way it shouldn't be rebalanced. Once classes become unbalanced, perceptions of that unbalance hurt the gameplay of others, e.g. not getting invited to groups. Balancing will probably need to continue as the game advances and levels.

2. If I may pick up Grenfell's flag now that he has departed the field: for the love of the silver flame, don't nerf peoples' characters in which they have invested an enormous amount of time unless absolutely necessary. If at all possible, make balancing changes by enhancing those classes that may be slipping. This is a nearly guaranteed way to infuriate otherwise happy players.

3. I don't think most people understand exactly the irrelevance of the kill count. It is not irrelevant because it's all about the team, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's irrelevant because it only counts numbers and does not take into account the strength of the opponent. I firmly believe w/p out kills any dps based melee character. This is my experience having and seeing both for nearly 2 years in the game. However, for 95% of the encounters in the game, whether you are killing them with w/p or straight dps is negligible. The time difference in killing and resources used can barely be measured (assuming you are twinked out either way). Most of the time the melee characters are nearly tripping over themselves to get kills. For the vast majority of quests, it is only the red-named bosses that are remotely challenging. Since the red-named bosses are immune to nearly everything but dps, this is a huge factor and should be taken into account in the balancing of the game.

Thus, it's not really accurate to say that barbarians are balanced because all they do is dps, if that is far more important than everything else in the only critical encounters of the adventure.

Again, I don't have an opinion specifically on if the crit threat range is overpowered, but I think these issues should be considered when looking at re-balancing.

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 11:06 AM
Yes it tells me that barbarians have a very nice enhancement, and I think fighters should have a nice enhancement line also.... I think everybody is forgetting the reason this enhancement was put in was so that Barbarians could finally out DPS fighters in the first place.Except that leaves Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, and Bards in the dust. And then they want a nifty enhancement. You can't just boost others to make up for overpowered mechanics. De-escalation is the name of the game.
at 8 14 and 20 I would hardly call that giving.....

Now in my opinion.....

If you wanted to do it so it did not stack with the feat, then do a 4 step at 4, 8, 12 and 16, costing 1,2,3 and 4 AP.Well, with 4 tiers we're back in the same boat as now. Barbs @ L16 can crit with 4 wider range than normal 16/x3 (current Axe w/ ImpCrit = 19/x3 and CritRageII = 17/x3). So, you're actually boosting Barbs. Only SoS and Rapiers take a hit and go from 13-20 to 14-20. That's no good.

Besides, L4 is way too early for any character to get ImpCrit. Keen weapons allow it to happen, but you raise the weapon ml:, sacrificing weapon prefix and enhancement + (again, give and take = balance). You could argue that it be three tiers @ 8,12,16 instead of 8,14,20. And I could be convinced of that with a nicely reasoned explanation.

hennebux
12-05-2007, 11:14 AM
I like the 3 tier approach also at 8,12,16 with maybe the ap being 2,4,6

DareDelvis
12-05-2007, 11:14 AM
2. If I may pick up Grenfell's flag now that he has departed the field: for the love of the silver flame, don't nerf peoples' characters in which they have invested an enormous amount of time unless absolutely necessary. If at all possible, make balancing changes by enhancing those classes that may be slipping. This is a nearly guaranteed way to infuriate otherwise happy players.


I am in a small guild with Gren in Tabula Rasa...I'll pass on the love :D

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 11:36 AM
Except that leaves Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, and Bards in the dust. And then they want a nifty enhancement. You can't just boost others to make up for overpowered mechanics. De-escalation is the name of the game.Well, with 4 tiers we're back in the same boat as now. Barbs @ L16 can crit with 4 wider range than normal 16/x3 (current Axe w/ ImpCrit = 19/x3 and CritRageII = 17/x3). So, you're actually boosting Barbs. Only SoS and Rapiers take a hit and go from 13-20 to 14-20. That's no good.

Besides, L4 is way too early for any character to get ImpCrit. Keen weapons allow it to happen, but you raise the weapon ml:, sacrificing weapon prefix and enhancement + (again, give and take = balance). You could argue that it be three tiers @ 8,12,16 instead of 8,14,20. And I could be convinced of that with a nicely reasoned explanation.

Paladins are not an offensive class.....

Rangers have other goodies and hence do not need a boost (although if you wanted to boost their rnaged crits, fine)

Rogues and Bards are not even full BAB classes, rogues have backstabbing and bards have buffage like no other.

I dont think barbarians need to be NERFED, should fighters get a little enhancement love, maybe, but not even sold on that yet, the others, heck no.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 11:37 AM
I like the 3 tier approach also at 8,12,16 with maybe the ap being 2,4,6

sure if they make it stack with the feat, otherwise it needs 4 steps.....

Anything else is a NERF.

EinarMal
12-05-2007, 11:38 AM
My only comment is that is funny how quickly people get attached to something that helps them, even though they were fine when it did not exist.

All games need balancing, even when the whole game was planned out from 1-20 at the start (far from the case in terms of this game).

Crit rage did not exist, now it does, and it would be fair if is changed again if it turns out that it was not a good idea.

The great enhancement overhaul greatly changed this game, sometimes in good ways, but causes lots of inbalances currently. That is what happens when you mess with the basic mechanics of a game. It works out not entirely as you planned.

I would remove crit rage II from the game personally and move crit rage I to level 14. I might put crit rage II back in as a level 20 enhancement. It really is a very powerful ability...

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 11:38 AM
I think Fighter Armor Mastery and the Fighter boosts are overpowered, I think they should be nerfed into nothingness...... :eek:

nbhs275
12-05-2007, 11:39 AM
I have 32 STR, all the Wpn Spec feats, THF feats, Madstone Boots, Bloodstone, Rage pots etc (apart from a +3 tome and the Scourge Choker/Blood Rage item I can't possibly increase my DPS).

The max damage I've seen on a crit from my SOS with STR at 36 is 162, crit range 15-20.

Any Barbs out there who can't beat that?

my paladin can beat that. And he doesnt have a +2 str tome or THF feats, or scourge chocker, or bloodstone. Those items could easily put him into the 200s.

If your upset that barbarians do more damage then you, barbarians are upset with the amount of feats you get. So the barbarian can crit for 200+ on his SoS? most barbarians cannot keep a 50 AC will doing it, or attack 40% faster, or afford all the THF, WS, and PA, CE, SB, and improved trip feats. A barbarian is lucky if he can fit in either the TWF chain or THF chain, PA and toughness. Fighters advantage isnt in DPS, its in tactics, AC and DPS bursting haste boost.

Dirac
12-05-2007, 11:48 AM
I am in a small guild with Gren in Tabula Rasa...I'll pass on the love :D

Cool. Let him know that those who appreciated the creative and comprehensive effort he put into builds and their analysis miss him.

muffinlad
12-05-2007, 11:48 AM
Barbarians are fine as they are, they do the job that their Class is designed to do. While I disagree with Cow about the Ranger issue (STWF), Barbs don't need any nerfs.

IMHO, we need to see some improvements on the class abilities of other BAB oriented classes, with different skills and abilities that are as useful to the party as simply DPS'ng things to death. I play ONE Barbarian, ONE ranger, One Fighter, and all the other slots in Spell casters, and there is no way that any melee class needs to be "less" powerful.

muffinwacker

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 11:56 AM
Barbarians are fine as they are, they do the job that their Class is designed to do. While I disagree with Cow about the Ranger issue (STWF), Barbs don't need any nerfs.

IMHO, we need to see some improvements on the class abilities of other BAB oriented classes, with different skills and abilities that are as useful to the party as simply DPS'ng things to death. I play ONE Barbarian, ONE ranger, One Fighter, and all the other slots in Spell casters, and there is no way that any melee class needs to be "less" powerful.

muffinwacker

Yep we do disagree on that issue, I think Rangers could be better served with other enhancements though (like a ranged crit range mod something like barbs get to further differentiate rangers from other classes)

Pellegro
12-05-2007, 12:10 PM
I have no beefs with barbs as overpowered.

They kinda are meh up to lvl 8-10, when AC still counts.

We are now in the level range where barbarians shine. Arcane casters too, for that matter.

Who knows who will evolve as the "must have" class from levels 15-16?

Don't nerf classes. Let others evolve. All will be well.

Taerdra
12-05-2007, 12:17 PM
I'm still missing the logic here to be honest as the melee classes are balanced in my opinion just not exclusively via DPS, and I will be right up front and say I have 2 pallies, 1 barb, and a ranger.

Many, many mobs that we see as levels progress cannot be critt'd. Certainly, most of the tough ones like a poster mentioned before (you know the ones that take up 1 out of the 3 minutes you spend doing quests on elite nowadays) cannot be critted or negate crits just like we do. Are you really worried about who kills the Ogres in Madstone? I don't know how you could really get at the root causes of DPS including items, etc., versus the actual mobs met in-game, but I would argue the majority of a barb's DPS overtime does not come from Critical Rage -- they come from Power Attack, STR in the 50s, and glancing blows. Over time, given the amount of mobs immune to crits in the high-end game, Crit Rage is not having as big of an impact as we think. I mean the Barb's 50 STR vs. the Fighter's 36 (which someone mentioned) adds up to +14 damage all by itself, never mind PA 3, etc. We should also not forget the impact that items have on the game. SOS is a nice weapon, but is not the best damage in the game when you consider Greater Banes, W/P, Deathnips, etc.

Call me undecided I guess... I wouldn't mind a critical enhancement for fighters or ranged version for rangers, etc., but I also like the idea that enhancements and feats would not stack for criticals. I think PnP trumps DDO in this regard. What the limits are, etc., I dunno, but I don't think adding crit enhancements for other classes would be game breaking.

Twerpp
12-05-2007, 12:22 PM
It's not a matter of debate that Barbs in the current game are pretty much untouchable by the other melees in terms of DPS.

Although some of this is down to the pnp core rules (which I'm a huge fan of), the Enhancement system has taken this advantage and grossly intensified it to the point that Barbs have become overpowered.

Although Extended Rage and Power Rage all play their parts, the thing I have the most trouble with (and which I see as being the main cause of the unbalance between the other melees) is Critical Rage (+2 to crit range, stacks with everything).

To restore balance I'd suggest one of the three following changes -

1. Drop it altogether - it has no place in PnP and is purely something conceived of by the Devs

2. Remove it's ability to stack with the Imp Crit feat (so a Barb would still crit on 18-20 with a greataxe, making it superior to Imp Crit for them).

3. Now this is far my favorite as it won't nerf barbs at all - drop Critical Rage, introduce the Barb's/Ftr's/Pally's/Ranger's Improved Critical I and II Enhancements.

The Enhancement would add up to +2 to the critcal range for ALL the melee classes. Prereqs would be the Imp Crit feat (current levels for the Barb enhancements are 11 and 14 - keep these the same?)

Barbs would be unaffected as the good ones spend the entire quest Raged anyway.

The other melees get to compete a little.

Any thoughts?

I frequently stomp barbs in kill count with a 14 WF Fighter. Leave barbs and their critical rage alone. If they are overpowering fighters/pallys/rangers, it probably has a lot to do with the fact they are using a two handed weapon and power attack, which is something rangers and pallys rarely do. About 90% of barbs are built with only one thing in mind, damage. They maxed str, took damage feats like GTHF chain, and basically dedicated all their AP, stat points, gear, and meager 5 feats towards damage only. If you are being overpowered by them it is probably because you chose not to build such a one-sided character and make those sacrifices for DPS.

Twerpp
12-05-2007, 12:32 PM
I have 32 STR, all the Wpn Spec feats, THF feats, Madstone Boots, Bloodstone, Rage pots etc (apart from a +3 tome and the Scourge Choker/Blood Rage item I can't possibly increase my DPS).

The max damage I've seen on a crit from my SOS with STR at 36 is 162, crit range 15-20.

Any Barbs out there who can't beat that?

Thats kind of unusual to hear I have the exact same setup on my WF ftr and have seen 180 (Velah last night) with powatk at +6, and in 190's (trolls in Tharashk arena, trying to set my record high crit lol) with powatk set at +8. These were +1 Greater Bane Greataxe crits, no SoS.

Try using max fighter haste boost. I know its burst damage but if you have 30% more attacks thats 30% more swings you get than a barb can.

I'm still trying to find my sweet spot on enhancement but I swear by the haste boost.

Mhykke
12-05-2007, 12:34 PM
Just wait till they put in barb critical rage XVII !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crits on 2 or above, and sometimes, you don't even need to swing a weapon, just looking at a mob funny will be a crit! :D



In all seriousness, this is a pretty good point:


I frequently stomp barbs in kill count with a 14 WF Fighter. Leave barbs and their critical rage alone. If they are overpowering fighters/pallys/rangers, it probably has a lot to do with the fact they are using a two handed weapon and power attack, which is something rangers and pallys rarely do. About 90% of barbs are built with only one thing in mind, damage. They maxed str, took damage feats like GTHF chain, and basically dedicated all their AP, stat points, gear, and meager 5 feats towards damage only. If you are being overpowered by them it is probably because you chose not to build such a one-sided character and make those sacrifices for DPS.


I think people are discussing mainly barbs that went for max dps. A lot of people who build barbs do this. A smaller % of people that build ftrs, rangers, etc. do this.

I think we'd be in fairly dangerous territory in removing some of the barbs' damage advantages. If we did, I think we'd be back to "why play a barb?"

llevenbaxx
12-05-2007, 12:43 PM
I agree with op the barb crit range thing is a little ridiculous.Especially when you factor in wound of punct.I'm not sure how to tone it down but believe it needs consideration.

Im with you guys, thats the kind of thing that should be available to all the melees(possibly at different levels/with different reqs) or no melees.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 12:46 PM
Im with you guys, thats the kind of thing that should be available to all the melees(possibly at different levels/with different reqs) or no melees.

I disagree, it should never be given to pallies, should only be given to rangers for bow attacks, and fighters I think should have harder crits not more of them.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 12:49 PM
should only be given to rangers for bow attacks

Ranger =/= bow user.

Give it to them vs. their favored enemies.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 12:53 PM
Ranger =/= bow user.

Give it to them vs. their favored enemies.

Now that is something I could definitely go with, especially if they ever allow rogues to crit constructs and undead.

Mercules
12-05-2007, 12:57 PM
Ranger =/= bow user.

Give it to them vs. their favored enemies.

Agreed... if Rangers get a bonus to fighting skills it should most likely affect their Favored Enemies so various types of that class can benefit from it. It might also tempt me to not take Undead, Elementals, and Constructs as favored enemies. Then again a Smiter could get fun.

Jaywade
12-05-2007, 01:05 PM
I'm way late to this thread but here it goes ....
to the op

the raged crit enhancement is not broken at all........ now it does work amazing well w/ w/p rapiers and TWF ...it also works pretty well w/ THF and Great axes..... Barbs are DPS monsters and that's it....you can build so many different types of rogues, vary you pally builds, casters can go form nukers to Cc, to buff bots, cleric's battle or heal bot's , fighters ....man ..TWF, THF, ranged, max ac turtles, a tone of different things...barbs can deal damage ...the enhancement fit's the class...who care's if it isn't in Pnp ....when's the last time you met a hobgoblin in PnP with over 500 hp!!!......if you ever played a barb you would welcome this too.....toughest class I ever played to lvl...here's why ...oh my god do you spend money ....no ac you get hit by everything so I chug down pots like they are going out of style ...every other class I play I wouldn't care if there was a healer or not....except when I play my barb...yeah he can throw out insane damage....but without a grp he can't do much.....it's my only toon I don't solo with...casue I can't very well at least.... and it doesn't matter if fighters or anything else can match their dps....I would love if my 14 fighter could match my 13 lvl barb in dps...that would be neat....THAT would brake the game!!!! lets let my 14 lvl 32 pt dwarf fighter w/ a 52 ac 462 hp a 34 str (w/ rage and madstone boots) max trip and stunning blows spec have the dps my barb does .....where can I sign up for that....if you don't like that you got out killed please don;t ever play w/ any decent sorc... cause right now in the current game setting that is the best I kill class (as it should be IMO wait till we get higher lvls Sorc should become almost demigod strength)..... there are things out of wack in DDO but I don;t think this is one of them....you may disagree which is okay but I ask you to ask yourself why ??

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 01:10 PM
Just to throw this out there:

What are the chances that it's not so much the Critical Rage enhancement line that's broken, but it's the Sword of Shadows...

Thoughts?

Mhykke
12-05-2007, 01:16 PM
Just to throw this out there:

What are the chances that it's not so much the Critical Rage enhancement line that's broken, but it's the Sword of Shadows...

Thoughts?

It's true that sword is sick.....but at the same time, it's available to all....the difference would still be the increased crit range of the barb (which I don't think is a problem) wielding the sword vs another class.

Mercules
12-05-2007, 01:17 PM
Just to throw this out there:

What are the chances that it's not so much the Critical Rage enhancement line that's broken, but it's the Sword of Shadows...

Thoughts?

/sarcasm on
What! Not a highly sought after piece of Raid Loot! Broken... Phffffft!
/sarcasm off

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 01:20 PM
/sarcasm on
What! Not a highly sought after piece of Raid Loot! Broken... Phffffft!
/sarcasm off

lol

Strykersz
12-05-2007, 01:20 PM
Just to throw this out there:

What are the chances that it's not so much the Critical Rage enhancement line that's broken, but it's the Sword of Shadows...

Thoughts?

Even the devs think the SoS is overpowered, but there is no way it's coming out of the game or getting changed. There are simply too many people that have been using one for too long.

Jaywade
12-05-2007, 01:21 PM
Just to throw this out there:

What are the chances that it's not so much the Critical Rage enhancement line that's broken, but it's the Sword of Shadows...

Thoughts?

honestly I don't think it is....infact I think the cariflex is more broken that the SoS...I know why why why.... carniflex much more easier to get and criting that low at lvl 6 is insane ....my own barb was a lot more fun to play once I got that.....I mean doin 110-120 pts of damage at that lvl is crazy..... and I the rage crit is nice w/ SoS but it's sick w/ W/P rapiers and TWF ...ofcourse it's dam tough to get W/P raipers ....but that's the sweet spot for that class IMO

MondoGrunday
12-05-2007, 01:21 PM
get rid of the kill count from quests = problem fixed. who cares if a person in your group kills more than you, you are fighting the same enemy, rejoice and build your own if you feel inferior. i have a thf fighter lvl 14 and a barb 12/ranger 2 twf and my barb/ranger can easily kill more because of the weaps i carry (w/p rapiers). the toons will evolve and at different points different toons are more desireable. you can't have it all. new weaps and feats may bring the love back to fighters then all the barbs will be crying the blues. the sorc is the most overpowered in the game and nobody cries about that, oh, because everyone has one, i see. :P

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 01:24 PM
It isnt fair, all these classes do more DPS than my cleric, and darn it, we all know clerics are supposed to be the top class in DDO. :rolleyes:

WTB Divine Critical abilities for clerics only.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 01:27 PM
It isnt fair, all these classes do more DPS than my cleric

You've just negated every single other post where you posit that Vanash is teh uberz.

If other classes are doing more DPS than you, I simply can't believe it. Between Destruction and Maximized BB, there should be no competition.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 01:29 PM
You've just negated every single other post where you posit that Vanash is teh uberz.

If other classes are doing more DPS than you, I simply can't believe it. Between Destruction and Maximized BB, there should be no competition.

Oh Vanash isnt the Uberz, he is a god. You forgot about cometfall in there to stun them......

and those BB are quickened and extended thank you very much. ;):D

If eevrybody thought that when the Abbot Ascended in Mod 5 that was bad, wait until Vanash Ascends in Mod 6.....

Dont make me send the Balors after you.

BUpcott
12-05-2007, 01:30 PM
I'm way late to this thread but here it goes ....
to the op

the raged crit enhancement is not broken at all........ now it does work amazing well w/ w/p rapiers and TWF ...it also works pretty well w/ THF and Great axes..... Barbs are DPS monsters and that's it....you can build so many different types of rogues, vary you pally builds, casters can go form nukers to Cc, to buff bots, cleric's battle or heal bot's , fighters ....man ..TWF, THF, ranged, max ac turtles, a tone of different things...barbs can deal damage ...the enhancement fit's the class...who care's if it isn't in Pnp ....when's the last time you met a hobgoblin in PnP with over 500 hp!!!......if you ever played a barb you would welcome this too.....toughest class I ever played to lvl...here's why ...oh my god do you spend money ....no ac you get hit by everything so I chug down pots like they are going out of style ...every other class I play I wouldn't care if there was a healer or not....except when I play my barb...yeah he can throw out insane damage....but without a grp he can't do much.....it's my only toon I don't solo with...casue I can't very well at least.... and it doesn't matter if fighters or anything else can match their dps....I would love if my 14 fighter could match my 13 lvl barb in dps...that would be neat....THAT would brake the game!!!! lets let my 14 lvl 32 pt dwarf fighter w/ a 52 ac 462 hp a 34 str (w/ rage and madstone boots) max trip and stunning blows spec have the dps my barb does .....where can I sign up for that....if you don't like that you got out killed please don;t ever play w/ any decent sorc... cause right now in the current game setting that is the best I kill class (as it should be IMO wait till we get higher lvls Sorc should become almost demigod strength)..... there are things out of wack in DDO but I don;t think this is one of them....you may disagree which is okay but I ask you to ask yourself why ??


Totally off topic but why do you use ... to end and start a new sentence OMG it hurts my eyes.

But agree with your points. Barbs are shining a little right now doesn't mean they are overpowered.

Emili
12-05-2007, 01:30 PM
Thats kind of unusual to hear I have the exact same setup on my WF ftr and have seen 180 (Velah last night) with powatk at +6, and in 190's (trolls in Tharashk arena, trying to set my record high crit lol) with powatk set at +8. These were +1 Greater Bane Greataxe crits, no SoS.

Try using max fighter haste boost. I know its burst damage but if you have 30% more attacks thats 30% more swings you get than a barb can.

I'm still trying to find my sweet spot on enhancement but I swear by the haste boost.

LOL 5 to 8 haste boosts for 20 seconds where 18 seconds are usable in a 2 second rounds is 9 rounds you have 30% speed ... so for 1 and a half minutes between shrines you get 1 extra swing in a round should you do the math it is 45 extra swings in total if it were chainable - which it is not. I actually tested fighter haste boosts out on Scraggs andyou know what... it came down to 10 extra swings per minute on a single scragg (they do not die without fire or acid is why I used them)... standing still. Reality in an encounter it's more like You're actually getting 5 more swings in on average every time you use that enhancement in real application each time you use it... And this does not count in the 2 seconds wasted from when you hit the haste button as the little + animation appears nor the cooldown before you can use it again.

With this in light, bursting boosts are just what they are a single burst ... usually good for one or two mob, not much more applicable then the current use of a pally smite. It in no way increases overall dps in the course of a quest but only affects a few mob within the quest. Should they only have 10 or so mob in a quest it would be different but usually quests have 100+ mob.

given that you cannot use this on every single mob it's comparable AP costs is steep when comparing it to a barbs critical rage which can be kept up for up to 20 minutes between shrines.

Justicar
12-05-2007, 01:31 PM
Gonna have to go With Cow and Pork on this one. Thats what a barb does. Thats his only job. To kill stuff, and to kill it as fast as possible. If you want to compete with a barb for kill counts then roll one up. I did.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 01:33 PM
My issue is simply fighters want the defensiveness and feats of a fighter and the dps of a Barb.....

Its just WRONG!!!!

hennebux
12-05-2007, 01:37 PM
I think alot of the people here who are for a slight restructure do have barbarians and could care less about kill count.Myself included.I feel comparing class vs. class is needless because it spirals into endless deliberation and opinion.Overall I feel it is just game mechanics that should be discussed and on that note 13-20 crit range is still a bit overpowered.I like the ideas of new enhancements to vary and offset that gap as well as maybe a restructure to lvl 8,12,16 for 2,4,6 ap's.Once again this thread is turning into a shootout and I'm gonna turn my attention to the pally issue in hopes of something constructive.(...now they got a reason to cry foul)
Good luck all and enjoy your game time.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-05-2007, 01:39 PM
My barb has a low will save, can I get some sort of help with that please Turbine?
My barb's AC is really low, can I get some sort of help with that please Turbine?
If I run out of rages Im a subpar fighter with no AC, can I get some sort of help with that please Turbine?
One time, in PoP, a sorcerer out killed me, can we nerf them please Turbine?

Whats the argument that barb crit rage is overpowered? Overpowered for what? Whats the reason?
Because they outkill some fighters? Because mobs die fast? Im not understanding why people say they
are overpowered.

Your pally used to be overpowered, literally untouchable.
Your fighter used to be overpowered, massive bonuses to-hit AND AC!
Your sorcerer/wizard can solo anything they want.

Whats the reason behind the crit rage hate? Im not sure I follow the thinking...

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 01:40 PM
As soon as they fix the broken fighter boosts (and how overpowering those can be) and Fighter Armor Mastery, we can talk about barbarians.....

Alavatar
12-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Once again, I place the blame solely on tight pants.

Emili
12-05-2007, 02:28 PM
Gonna have to go With Cow and Pork on this one. Thats what a barb does. Thats his only job. To kill stuff, and to kill it as fast as possible. If you want to compete with a barb for kill counts then roll one up. I did.

I disagree with this, a warrior is a warrior... There is no reason a berzerking barbarian should be a extreme killer as compared to a highly trained warlord or a knight is there? If you looked at the extremes a barb can deliver up to 50% more than the other melee classes - work out the numbers.

I have fighters a Barb and a Pally, In DnD you can build any of these classes to DPS or be defensive or even middle of the road... What the difference in DDO is they pigeon-hole the classes thus breaking away from DnD. What is worse here is that since DDO is like other games of it's nature DPS is more important than defense... the quicker the mob is gone the more efficient the group is in the quest - the time factor - "Dead mob is the ultimate defense". Think about it this way...

Barb vs Mob - barb swing, barb swing, mob swing, Barb swing - Mob is dead
Fighter or Pally vs Mod - melee swing, melee swing, mob swing, melee swing, melee swing, mob swing, melee swing - mob dead

Is not to say sure the Pally or Fighter are getting hit less... what does that matter? You could have a pretty high AC on the Barb too... If we compound this by 10 mob or 100 mob you'd see the difference - It's time. So when it comes down to it when you questing the significant resource is time ... that is what DPS is a time saver.

Now I know some people will tout DPS is not everything... but the nature of the game is about DPS. We kill mob, we do not walk around an negotiate with them, we do not tell them to leave? No fast DPS is what the game is about. There is not a quest in DDO where DPS is not needed you cannot go into a quest without thinking I need to kill the mob.

Emili
12-05-2007, 02:33 PM
My issue is simply fighters want the defensiveness and feats of a fighter and the dps of a Barb.....

Its just WRONG!!!!

Actually I do not, what I want is that they not pigeon-hole the melee classes and races into roles by pushing the extremes at them so much so that we have so many cookie cutter builds and little diversity. Step back and look at core DnD rules... fighter feats = Barbs class abilities = Pally class abilities - give and take... it is enhancements which pigeon-hole the classes and races into the extreme roles.

maddmatt70
12-05-2007, 02:35 PM
/not signed. I would rather them give fighters something more fighterish, rangers something more rangerish, etc. The barbarians can have their crit rage... Yes, I play a level 14 dps fighter. It all evens out.. stop your wahwahwahing...

Kalten_of_Amber
12-05-2007, 02:46 PM
Gonna have to go With Cow and Pork on this one. Thats what a barb does. Thats his only job. To kill stuff, and to kill it as fast as possible. If you want to compete with a barb for kill counts then roll one up. I did.


Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I have been playing a Barb since beta, and that is most certainly NOT the barbarians only role in DDO. You forgot the other 3 major things.

2. Soaking up all of the clerics mana and money :)

3. Occasionally actually finding ham

4. Successfully finding every single trap in the game, the first time! Thereby making rogues obsolete! Because even when I role a "1", I still successfully find the trap, no matter what! :)

Twerpp
12-05-2007, 02:48 PM
Actually I do not, what I want is that they not pigeon-hole the melee classes and races into roles by pushing the extremes at them so much so that we have so many cookie cutter builds and little diversity. Step back and look at core DnD rules... fighter feats = Barbs class abilities = Pally class abilities - give and take... it is enhancements which pigeon-hole the classes and races into the extreme roles.

I feel opposite about the enhancement system, I don't think it pigeon-holes at all, it's the main reason we have the diversity we do now, specialize or generalize as it says. Among the classes and races we have in-game right now the enhancement system gives WAY more diversity than PnP allows.

If you have an elf ranger melee focused, spec him some melee bonuses. If he's a bowman, spec him his ranged attack/damage bonuses..
Is your fighter a tank or a dps? Pour his AP into stunning blow/trip/flanking/attack boost or dex/armor mastery/intimidate/ac boost
The examples go on and on but enhancements dont by any means pigeon-hole people quite the opposite.

Twerpp
12-05-2007, 02:50 PM
4. Successfully finding every single trap in the game, the first time! Thereby making rogues obsolete! Because even when I role a "1", I still successfully find the trap, no matter what! :)

LOL see there is a reason barbs have energy resistance and 500+ hp's, they are supposed to zerg thru traps!

Porkchop
12-05-2007, 02:55 PM
LOL see there is a reason barbs have energy resistance and 500+ hp's, they are supposed to zerg thru traps!

Plus they are usually raged and they don't want to wait around being inactive and turn back into David Banner.

woodspider
12-05-2007, 03:11 PM
What is a Barbians role in a group?

What main enhancement is the critical rage better than?

Mercules
12-05-2007, 03:19 PM
Plus they are usually raged and they don't want to wait around being inactive and turn back into David Banner.

Good thing every on of them carries their own means of healing.

What do you mean they don't?:eek:

Strakeln
12-05-2007, 03:21 PM
Dammit, two more levels and my hybrid barbarian can finally get part 2 of this enhancement. Nerf it after that!

maddong
12-05-2007, 03:24 PM
It would be silly to give something as overpowered as critical rage to all the melee classes.

I'd be for bumping II up to level 16 to prevent impures from getting it. After you have invested 16 levels you are pretty close to tireless rage and mighty rage. But otherwise unless they come up with critical rage III (I hope not) or some other ridiculously overpowered enhancement you are going to start seeing everyone go 14 barb/6 fighter.

woodspider
12-05-2007, 03:29 PM
It would be silly to give something as overpowered as critical rage to all the melee classes.

I'd be for bumping II up to level 16 to prevent impures from getting it. After you have invested 16 levels you are pretty close to tireless rage and mighty rage. But otherwise unless they come up with critical rage III (I hope not) or some other ridiculously overpowered enhancement you are going to start seeing everyone go 14 barb/6 fighter.

And if you bump it to 16, everyone will go 16/4, or 16/2/2

GlassCannon
12-05-2007, 03:33 PM
My fighter 10 uses Haste Boost to balance out the difference. He outDPS's barbarian pures with both Rage Critical enhances by pure swing count alone. The problem is, he only gets 100 seconds of boost, and 10 of those are spent during activation of the boost(by the click-and-wait problem). His armor class is 21 base with a +4 mith fp. No, he doesn't need DEX.

Basically the rage critical is an advantage of staying a pure class, and you need to get over it. Stop whining and get back to playing.

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 03:43 PM
Basically the rage critical is an advantage of staying a pure class, and you need to get over it. Stop whining and get back to playing.Not when the cap goes up to 16 and all the multiclass 14Barb/ 2Fighter/Rogue/Rangers get CritRageII. :rolleyes: (praying there is no CritRageIII at any point ever in the future.)


P.S. We're not whining. We're discussing the development of our game, here in the Development Discussion forum. Thanks for playing! ;)

tihocan
12-05-2007, 05:58 PM
My 2 cents about the OP: critical rage is awesome but it's needed to make barbarians worth playing.

gpk
12-05-2007, 06:01 PM
If you have a fighter that out DPSes a BBN, or for that matter "outplays" him don't flatter yoursel, you are playing with a mediocre or underequipped bararian.

Bbn haven't been behind fighters for a very long time, Rage Crit 2 just widened the gap. If you don't think that the mighty power rage and Crit Rage 2 doesn't put bbns far ahead of the other melees you are deluding yourself. A +2 crit rage to ANY weapon while raged (let's face it noone runs out of rage) is a huge boost in power, wait till mod 6 to see more.

Like it or not there has to be some type of balance in an online game , and I hate to say it, through some very shortsighted decisions balance has gone out the window as of late. The wrong classes have been nerfed and the wrong classes have been boosted (some classes have gone unnoticed either way) and the game is suffering accordingly. Noone is saying Paladins or Rangers should out-DPS a Barbarian, but when the barbarian is SO far ahead of all other melee classes in DPS, HP (let's not forget fort and will saves, does reflex matter as much?) one has to ask if that's good for the game.

Of course all these melee comparisons are still irrelevant since Mod5 made the already more pwerful casters (mod4) twice as powerful...

Alavatar
12-05-2007, 06:31 PM
Of course all these melee comparisons are still irrelevant since Mod5 made the already more pwerful casters (mod4) twice as powerful...

It did? My wizard and sorcerer don't seem more powerful then before...

If you are referring to weapon with Archmagi on it ... BWHAHWHAHA. Casual players will be lucky to have that by the time Mod 6 rolls around.

gpk
12-05-2007, 07:33 PM
It did? My wizard and sorcerer don't seem more powerful then before...

If you are referring to weapon with Archmagi on it ... BWHAHWHAHA. Casual players will be lucky to have that by the time Mod 6 rolls around.

Are you sure you play a wizard and sorcerer?

Sigh, ok run some numbers w/ Empower and Maximize vs normal spells. Compare the damage output/spell points etc, compare the numbers w/ pre-mod5 metas. Also throw in some future spells like Polar ray.

Let me know what you come up with...

P.S. When I have time I'll make a nice big top level thread with lotsa number, and get the flamed for it no doubt by all the ppl who like to bury their head in the sand (many in this thread).

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 07:54 PM
Sigh, ok run some numbers w/ Empower and Maximize vs normal spells. Compare the damage output/spell points etc, compare the numbers w/ pre-mod5 metas. Also throw in some future spells like Polar ray.

He's right. The metamagic changes made primary spellcasters (Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, maybe Bards) pretty darn butch.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-05-2007, 09:05 PM
It did? My wizard and sorcerer don't seem more powerful then before...

If you are referring to weapon with Archmagi on it ... BWHAHWHAHA. Casual players will be lucky to have that by the time Mod 6 rolls around.

Well I started rolling with my highten on pretty much all the time on my sorc because of the lower cost. And unless I'm for some reason focussing on L1-3 spells, my maximize is on pretty much all the time too.

If your focus is upper level spells, the new metamagic prices are a HUGE improvement in your firepower.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 10:41 PM
Well I started rolling with my highten on pretty much all the time on my sorc because of the lower cost.

Heighten is the only metamagic that didn't decrease in cost. ;)

Invalid_86
12-05-2007, 10:46 PM
I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.


I remember that thread. Basically all it showed is that wounding of puncturing weapons need to be pummelled with a nerfbat.

Oh yeah, and that the barbarian had grossly better equipment for the challenge than the fighter.

Taojeff
12-06-2007, 01:06 AM
I am going to have to agree with this. Barbs, do not need to start seeing 13-20 crit ranges....what happens when greater crit comes out?

It is not appropriate, and their is nothing that fighters can similarly balance with.... If anything improved critical is a valid path for thieves, it makes sense with them.

Justicesar
12-06-2007, 04:40 AM
Nope...keep Barb Crit the same.

Porkchop
12-06-2007, 10:33 AM
I am going to have to agree with this. Barbs, do not need to start seeing 13-20 crit ranges....what happens when greater crit comes out?

It is not appropriate, and their is nothing that fighters can similarly balance with.... If anything improved critical is a valid path for thieves, it makes sense with them.
Reply With Quote

Fighters are not supposed to BALANCE with a barbarian's DPS OR crit range, THAT IS WHAT MAKES A BARBARIAN A BARBARIAN! You fighters in favor of taking away the barbarian critical rage, I say take away half your feats. You guys that want your fighters to have the same critical rage, I say give the barbarians 6 extra feats.

woodspider
12-06-2007, 10:38 AM
Fighters are not supposed to BALANCE with a barbarian's DPS OR crit range, THAT IS WHAT MAKES A BARBARIAN A BARBARIAN! You fighters in favor of taking away the barbarian critical rage, I say take away half your feats. You guys that want your fighters to have the same critical rage, I say give the barbarians 6 extra feats.


I agree one hundred percent. Give me armor mastery and tower shield mastery, give me a 50+ ac, then you cantalk about getting crit rage.

gpk
12-06-2007, 10:47 AM
Fighters are not supposed to BALANCE with a barbarian's DPS OR crit range, THAT IS WHAT MAKES A BARBARIAN A BARBARIAN! You fighters in favor of taking away the barbarian critical rage, I say take away half your feats. You guys that want your fighters to have the same critical rage, I say give the barbarians 6 extra feats.

Your argument has been refuted on another thread so I'll reply in a different manner.
Some would argue it's DPS, mega Str+Con(HP+Fort)+Will save from rage and DR that makes a barbarian a barbarian.
Add Rage Crit 2, the obsolence of AC sinde mod4 and the easily available heavy fort items (nearly every item/armor type) to the mix and a Fighters feat's don't even come a close second to the barbarians power. You can add 6 more feats still and it would barely help. Crit Rage 2 (cheap AP cost, works on ALL weapon types) and is a big boost to DPS( bbns were already melee DPS kings), for many fighters is just the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

Maybe Fighters feats like weapon focus, gr weap focus, weap specializations, gr weap spec, imp crit shoould work for ALL weapon types huh, no wait that doesn't work either...

I'm reminded of the old Looney Tunes cartoon where Daffy runs a hotel where Proky is staying and plants a mouse in Porky's room so that he can charge him a fee to remove the mouse. Well he then gets a cat to chase the mouse, then a dog to chase the cat, a lion to chase the dog, an elephant to chase the lion and then restarts the cycle with a mouse to scare away the elephant...

Renegade66
12-06-2007, 10:54 AM
A key point I think we're missing is that the reason people stopped playing Fighters exclusively and started playing Barbarians exclusively is NOT due to the improved crit range, but instead due to the AC nerf. Once it no longer mattered what your AC was on high level, elite mobs, there was no reason to play a high AC, lower DPS fighter over a low AC higher DPS barbarian. AC was king until people like the OP started crying for a nerf. Turbine happily obliged. Now DPS is king. The OP wants to nerf that. Next up to the nerf bat will be Sorcs, so on and so forth until the game is nerfed into everyone is equal at everything.

The solution should not be more nerfs, but instead be reinstating some of the value of AC. Then we would be back to needing to make a decision on; A) making a Tank that can absorb hits, hold aggro and have high survivability or B) making a cannon that can kill things fast, but loses health quick and can do little on their own. Who knows, someone might actually make a pure paladin again.

Ren

MysticTheurge
12-06-2007, 11:06 AM
Fighters are not supposed to BALANCE with a barbarian's DPS OR crit range

Ok. You had me up until the "OR."

I can accept that barbarians are designed to be able to do more DPS. That's what rage is really all about.

But there's absolutely nothing in D&D that lets a barbarian get a higher crit range than a fighter, or for that matter, a ranger, a cleric, wizard, bard or anyone else.

I'd be curious to hear the justification for the statement that barbarians are "supposed to" have a larger crit range than anyone else.

Cowdenicus
12-06-2007, 11:19 AM
Ok. You had me up until the "OR."

I can accept that barbarians are designed to be able to do more DPS. That's what rage is really all about.

But there's absolutely nothing in D&D that lets a barbarian get a higher crit range than a fighter, or for that matter, a ranger, a cleric, wizard, bard or anyone else.

I'd be curious to hear the justification for the statement that barbarians are "supposed to" have a larger crit range than anyone else.

I couldnt begin to justify it except that without it barbarians just could not beat the DPS of fighters.

Now maybe the pendulum has started to swing the other way, but with that being said people are starting to complain that melee cant keep up with casters.

With that thought in mind, the solution is in my opinion that Barbarians do not need to be brought down, but that rangers, pallies, and fighters need to be brought up.

That being said, I have somewhat of a solution to the issue, I think (but I am sure people will yell at me for it.)

Pallies need boosts to their auras (more than what they have) available starting at level 4 and every couple levels there after. These need to be focused mostly on the Paladin himself. Also something needs to be done with the "smite" ability to make it more useful and less restrictive. Also maybe increasing LoH for pallies might be in order (an extra base 1 or 2 and or making them AoE, good way to make pallies burn enhancement points)

Rangers I am loathe to touch at this point for a couple reasons, Rams Might is going to be huge, and also we are not sure of the three new PrC enhancements and how they will effect rangers. Although if they are still a bit underpowered I would suggest an increase of the crit range by 1 for favored enemies. (for a high price, thinking level 12 enhancement 2-4 AP)

Fighters is where it gets tricky.... do we give them something to make them stronger offensivly, or defensively? Fighters are pretty tough......Maybe I will leave this one up for discussion.

gpk
12-06-2007, 11:22 AM
The solution should not be more nerfs, but instead be reinstating some of the value of AC. Then we would be back to needing to make a decision on; A) making a Tank that can absorb hits, hold aggro and have high survivability or B) making a cannon that can kill things fast, but loses health quick and can do little on their own. Who knows, someone might actually make a pure paladin again.

Ren

What's a pure paladin ? ;)

Seriosuly though the de-valuing of AC is a good point that you and others have brought up in numerous threads. Some would argue the problem is further compounded by the cheaply available 100% fortification items. Where high AC could help negate criticals even if you were hit, "useless" AC +Heavy Fort+DR seems to be the name of the game.

The same guildy who brought up the fortification issue also had an interesting theoretical proposition:

Change fortification from 25,75,100% to something like +4,+12,+16 AC bonus vs critical hit confirmation rolls.
Net result : Those who invested in a high AC would benefit more from "fortification" items compared to those who don't bother at all with AC. An interesting line of thought...

Then there's also the issue of mobs not getting progressive attacks at lower attack bonuses where a high AC would still be valuable for negating subsequent attacks, that's a bit tricky seing as how our attack bonuses get higher w/ more swings....

Porkchop
12-06-2007, 11:24 AM
I'd be curious to hear the justification for the statement that barbarians are "supposed to" have a larger crit range than anyone else.

Did you ever watch the hulk? When David Banner got raged he turned into a huge, bulked up fighting machine. Whatever he got his hands on, whether it be a weapon, a tree branch or if he pulled someones arm off, I expect, no, I demand that he be able to hit someone harder and for more damage then anyone else.

Delith
12-06-2007, 11:25 AM
On what planet? I am routinely outkilled by arcanes on my TWF-specced barb weilding puncturers. On a melee-heavy quest, I can rack up a kill count WITH CONSTANT SUPPORT. It takes CC and CONSTANT healing. Solo, my barbarian is pathetic compared to arcanes.
No, I do not think arcanes need nerfed; I am merely trying to point out the absurdity of a nerf barbarian thread.

Also, the fighter vs. barbarian thread pitted a THF fighter versus a TWF barbarian, weilding two w/p rapiers WITH support in a very melee-oriented quest (Madstone, if memory serves).

I think what happened here is someone got their ego bruised.
Del

Renegade66
12-06-2007, 11:47 AM
Also, the fighter vs. barbarian thread pitted a THF fighter versus a TWF barbarian, weilding two w/p rapiers WITH support in a very melee-oriented quest (Madstone, if memory serves).

You have a good memory. It was Madstone elite (a very good choice I might add for pitting fighter types against one another). I merely posted what I thought was an obvious fact that with the exception of red bosses and high DR, a THF barbarian cannot compete in kills with a TWF barbarian with twin w/p rapiers (Jellybean). And certainly, a DPS fighter type could not compete.

One of the barbarian gurus (Shade) posted a challenge to that saying he wished I were on his server so he could show me how he routinely outkills barbarians with twin w/p rapiers. He thought himself safe until Risia was mentioned and I took him up on his challenge. He was never seen from or heard of again. In fact, although there was a lot of criticism of my statement, no one took me up on the challenge except for a lone brave fighter. We had a great time even though he was demolished (I think he had maybe 40% kills). It took as much to heal him as me. He held aggro longer since it took him longer to kill his foe. Off topic, but one of the advantages of TWF over THF is that you don't grab as much aggro due to the glancing blows of two handed weapons. For example, charm one creature and it holds mob aggro while you quickly kill one at a time with TWF. A THF hits them all and immediately has the entire mob pounding on him.

On topic, I hate "bring out the nerf bat" threads.

A_Sheep
12-06-2007, 12:03 PM
Then there's also the issue of mobs not getting progressive attacks at lower attack bonuses where a high AC would still be valuable for negating subsequent attacks, that's a bit tricky seing as how our attack bonuses get higher w/ more swings....

Aha! The true 'culprit' rears it's head.

The way I get through all this really is by reminding myself that this is not my incarnation of D and D. I don't get to make the decisions. All I can do is use this game as a tool to have fun and I do have fun. Would I be having more fun if the game were built differently? Maybe, but chances are that I probably would still have a very similar amount of fun. The enhancement system pushes everything towards the archetypes with racial and class enhancements. I fault myself mostly for getting the most enjoyment out of being successful, when I should be able to enjoy failure just as much.

Barbarian Crit rage makes the game less enjoyable for me. But it's not a big deal really. Dwarven Racial enhancements, sorcerors casting faster than wizards, and the combat system reducing the usefulness of end-game armor class. I have a dwarven barbarian and I feel guilty for him. I didn't build him because I wanted to exploit the game. I didn't build him because I wanted to lead the kill count. Now I'm left feeling somewhat guilty. *shrug* I mean, I still enjoy the game, but it's not as fun for me as it was during the lvl 10 cap, imo. Of course, same thing can be said of most games: it was all new and exciting back then, now it's not so new and not so exciting. But it's still a good game. Better than any other mmo for me so far.

gpk
12-06-2007, 12:26 PM
One of the barbarian gurus (Shade) posted a challenge to that saying he wished I were on his server so he could show me how he routinely outkills barbarians with twin w/p rapiers. He thought himself safe until Risia was mentioned and I took him up on his challenge. He was never seen from or heard of again.

LMAO

MysticTheurge
12-06-2007, 12:58 PM
Did you ever watch the hulk? When David Banner got raged he turned into a huge, bulked up fighting machine. Whatever he got his hands on, whether it be a weapon, a tree branch or if he pulled someones arm off, I expect, no, I demand that he be able to hit someone harder and for more damage then anyone else.

Yes. And this is why rage gives you a strength bonus.

How hard you can hit doesn't have anything to do with critical threat range.

sigtrent
12-06-2007, 01:18 PM
It seems balanced to me.

Barbarians do tons of damage. That is what they do and that is pretty much all they do. (In PnP barbs have some stretegic speed advantage and some usefull skill sets but those are pretty much moot in DDO)

Fighters can do all kinds of things but what they can't do, nor should they is to be able to out damage a barbarian built to be a DPS monster.

Here is how I see pure classes in DDO in terms of unique specialties (aka what they do better than any other class)
Barbarian: Melee damage
Ranger: Ranged/Melee option
Paladin: Pure defense
Fighter: Build versatility
Rogue: Skills
Bard: Buffing
Cleric: Healing
Sorcerer: Focused Spell Casting (focused on damage or CC spells)
Wizard: Arcane versatility

Fighter and Wizard arn't as beefy as their more specilized counterparts, but they have the versatility to make builds featuring a mix of abilities that other classes simply can't pull off.

Mercules
12-06-2007, 01:29 PM
Did you ever watch the hulk? When David Banner got raged he turned into a huge, bulked up fighting machine. Whatever he got his hands on, whether it be a weapon, a tree branch or if he pulled someones arm off, I expect, no, I demand that he be able to hit someone harder and for more damage then anyone else.

That would be the Str bonus. He doesn't suddenly become able to better aim his strikes. :p

Cowdenicus
12-06-2007, 01:30 PM
and no body commented on the proposal i had, hmmmm.

Mercules
12-06-2007, 01:41 PM
It seems balanced to me.

Barbarians do tons of damage. That is what they do and that is pretty much all they do. (In PnP barbs have some stretegic speed advantage and some usefull skill sets but those are pretty much moot in DDO)

Fighters can do all kinds of things but what they can't do, nor should they is to be able to out damage a barbarian built to be a DPS monster.

Here is how I see pure classes in DDO in terms of unique specialties (aka what they do better than any other class)
Barbarian: Melee damage Throwing Damage
Ranger: Ranged/Melee option TWF DPS/Stat damage/back up healing/Ranged DPS/Melee DPS/AC expert
Paladin: Pure defense Undead killer/Aura Buff/HEALER/agro grabber/DPS
Fighter: Build versatilityYou got this right, Ranged/melee/stat damage/TWF/2HF/AC/DPS/tactics
Rogue: Skills DPS/Trapskills/UMD(divine/arcane roles)/Generalist
Bard: Buffing Melee(Warchanters)/CC/Buffing/Healing/Generalist
Cleric: Healing Offensive casting/Melee DPS/Buffing/Healing
Sorcerer: Focused Spell Casting (focused on damage or CC spells) It's not an either or, you can do both and do it well.
Wizard: Arcane versatility Again True, but they can also TANK(as can Sorcerers) with self buffs.

Fighter and Wizard arn't as beefy as their more specilized counterparts, but they have the versatility to make builds featuring a mix of abilities that other classes simply can't pull off.

I agree that Fighters and Wizards are the "do it all" and "Go whatever way they want" in their particular field (fighting - arcane casting) but that doesn't mean that if they decide to go all out in one area of the field they shouldn't be about the equivalent of a more specialized class. For example, a Fighter should be able to match a TWF stat damage Ranger fairly closely loosing out when it comes to the Ranger's chosen enemies. A buffing/enchantment Wizard should match a Bard in the CC/Buff department. :)

I am VERY disappointed in your narrow view of the role of Bards and Clerics.:D

A_Sheep
12-06-2007, 02:04 PM
The hypothetical max DPS 2-handed Barbarian build does more damage than the hypothetical max DPS 2-handed fighter even without critical rage.

Twerpp
12-06-2007, 02:04 PM
Yes. And this is why rage gives you a strength bonus.

How hard you can hit doesn't have anything to do with critical threat range.

If barbs were a straight port from PnP (ie no crit rage) there would be very little or no reason to play them. The str/con bonuses can be replicated pretty closely by fighters and even better they are constant, and the fighter will still have feats to spare.

Jaywade
12-06-2007, 02:40 PM
He's right. The metamagic changes made primary spellcasters (Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, maybe Bards) pretty darn butch.
you can say that again, my sorc is so much fun to play it's hard for me to even log on my other guys for anything other than a reaver raid

Jaywade
12-06-2007, 02:54 PM
I agree that you do see more Barb's around right now in the game....I still think fighters hold lot's of edges over barbs, just not in DPS...I have 2 really well fighters that are fun to play and have all the goodies and raid gear you could want ....neither one of them comes close to either one of my arcanes (1 wizz 1 sorc) ....my barb he closer but he's not there either...but honestly encounters w/ mob's are over now in a matter of 1-4 combat rds.....with 4 being a long time I don;t think most red names could last after 16 swings from my barb........my sorc can 1 hit many mobs and w/ damage or instance death.......that's the meta game right now.... max dps....and I would put sorc at the very top casue my sorc dosen't need a a party like my barb does ....

Mercules
12-06-2007, 02:58 PM
If barbs were a straight port from PnP (ie no crit rage) there would be very little or no reason to play them. The str/con bonuses can be replicated pretty closely by fighters and even better they are constant, and the fighter will still have feats to spare.

Sure there would... If this was a straight port than some of the Barbarian skills would come into play as would some of the wilderness ability they have. DR and Uncanny Dodge would actually be worthwhile in a straight port since a Flatfooted Fighter can be in BIG trouble. You wouldn't be able to flank them because of Improved Uncanny Dodge.

In a straight port of everything the classes are much more balanced than DDO.

Mad_Bombardier
12-06-2007, 03:12 PM
If barbs were a straight port from PnP (ie no crit rage) there would be very little or no reason to play them. The str/con bonuses can be replicated pretty closely by fighters and even better they are constant, and the fighter will still have feats to spare.Ummm, no. Fighters can't get 42+ STR (not counting potions or Scourge Choker). Nor can they get CON in the upper 30s. Nor can they get incredible Will saves.

Taerdra
12-06-2007, 03:15 PM
The hypothetical max DPS 2-handed Barbarian build does more damage than the hypothetical max DPS 2-handed fighter even without critical rage.

Agreed. I don't think Crit Rage is the difference maker everyone is making it out to be.

Borror0
12-06-2007, 04:27 PM
Nor can they get incredible Will saves.

They can... by multiclassing pally!:D

nbhs275
12-06-2007, 04:46 PM
Ummm, no. Fighters can't get 42+ STR (not counting potions or Scourge Choker). Nor can they get CON in the upper 30s. Nor can they get incredible Will saves.

human pure fighter

18 base
+3 tome
+3 level
+4 enhancments
+2 rage
+6 item
+4 madstone x2
________________
40 str..with +4 damage on all weapons in one field and +2 attack with those. Equivelent to a 44 str or so.

So the strength point is moot.

Con

human pure fighter

14 base
+6 item
+1 enhancement
+3 tome
+2 rage
+8 madstone
____________
34 con Which is yet again, fine.

Will saves are just as easily done on a fighter, if they invest 2 of their extra feats into it, and remember to not dump wisdom.

Fighters have advantages, as do barbarians. As of right now, they both fill what role they should have. Fighters should be able to deal considerable Damage, but also have much better constant ACs along with more strategic abilities.

Barbarians should be able to do much better damage then the fighter, but have less ac, statgies available, and cannot use clickies while raging(a considerable disadvantage with the amount of these types of items in game currently).

And please, no one make "in PnP blah blah blah" arguements, because in pnp fighters become such wastes at high levels that they devoted nearly 1/2 the feats in the PH2 to trying to ungimp them. No one playing a real pnp game above level 5 looks at fighter as a viable class unless they have never played before.

Mercules
12-06-2007, 04:58 PM
And please, no one make "in PnP blah blah blah" arguements, because in pnp fighters become such wastes at high levels that they devoted nearly 1/2 the feats in the PH2 to trying to ungimp them. No one playing a real pnp game above level 5 looks at fighter as a viable class unless they have never played before.

Straight Fighters... no... In PnP very few people play level 15-20 Fighters. Level 12 Fighter/8 Rogue, yes... :)

MysticTheurge
12-06-2007, 05:05 PM
human pure fighter

18 base
+3 tome
+3 level
+4 enhancments
+2 rage
+6 item
+4 madstone x2
________________
40 str..with +4 damage on all weapons in one field and +2 attack with those. Equivelent to a 44 str or so.

So the strength point is moot.

Con

human pure fighter

14 base
+6 item
+1 enhancement
+3 tome
+2 rage
+8 madstone
____________
34 con Which is yet again, fine.

Whatever numbers you put up there, the barbarian can get 3 less strength from enhancements, 3 more con from enhancements, and +10 strength, +9 con while raged

Mad_Bombardier
12-06-2007, 09:51 PM
human pure fighter

18 base
+3 tome
+3 level
+4 enhancments
+2 rage
+6 item
+4 madstone x2
________________
40 str..with +4 damage on all weapons in one field and +2 attack with those. Equivelent to a 44 str or so.

So the strength point is moot.human pure Barbarian

18 base
+3 tome
+3 level
+1 enhancement
+2 rage spell
+10 rage
+6 item
+4 madstone x2
________________
47 str...with PowerAttack enhancements for -3 attack, +6 damage. Equivalent to 58 str or so (for damage. to-hit doesn't count since a raging Barb hits on a 2).

So the strength point is NOT moot. ;) STR, CON, and will saves are a Barbs biggest assets.

KoolHand
12-07-2007, 06:34 AM
This crying isn't about DPS at all. It's about a few guys that had w/p rapiers on rangers and rogues and saw the the window.. Make a raging barb and poke stuff w/ toothpicks until it dies. As a pure DPS barb I hate the build, not because it kills very effeciently, but because it SURELY is NOT what comes to mind when you think of the HULK, CONAN or any other RAGING killing machine. This is about egos that are getting hurt and nothing more. Crit rage is fine, w/p weapons need to be scaled back more in there drops might be the answer. ANOTHER thing is to make the CRIT rage line exclusive to PURE barbs. We (pure barbs) don't want no stinking rogue,ranger,fighter types blended in our blood. We only want war and bloodshed.

Renegade66
12-07-2007, 07:40 AM
Don't forget Scourge Chokers. I think I've hit 55 STR on the Reaver Raid with only a +2 Tome. I should literally be able to pick him up and throw him across the room.

I love it, but I don't think there's a single creature, deity or demigod in the D&D universe that has that high of STR. Even Great Wyrms cap around 45 or so. Not that it needs to be nerfed.


human pure Barbarian

18 base
+3 tome
+3 level
+1 enhancement
+2 rage spell
+10 rage
+6 item
+4 madstone x2
________________
47 str...with PowerAttack enhancements for -3 attack, +6 damage. Equivalent to 58 str or so (for damage. to-hit doesn't count since a raging Barb hits on a 2).

So the strength point is NOT moot. ;) STR, CON, and will saves are a Barbs biggest assets.

BlueLightBandit
12-07-2007, 08:12 AM
That would be the Str bonus. He doesn't suddenly become able to better aim his strikes. :p


Yes. And this is why rage gives you a strength bonus.
How hard you can hit doesn't have anything to do with critical threat range.

Um, wrong. Steroids in baseball is a perfect example. The Hulk is a good one as well... let's say Bruce Banner grabs a maladroit tree branch and starts swinging wildly... now allow our green friend to grab the same exact tree branch and tell me with a straight face that they will do dex damage on the exact same percentage of swings. I would go so far as to say that the dex damage dealt by the Hulk would be twice as inflicting (decrease dex twice as much per the same hit) but DDO doesn't use that mechanic, they use the mechanic to allow them to crit more often.


Ummm, no. Fighters can't get 42+ STR (not counting potions or Scourge Choker). Nor can they get CON in the upper 30s. Nor can they get incredible Will saves.

Neither can twf rangers or rogues... it's an advantage for a barbarian because that's really all barbs get... a single tool that they can use effectively. To combat that fighters get a multitude of feats and can increase their usefulness in other ways. Barbs can't be a crowd control melee using enhancements to trip and stunning blow. Rangers get twf feats for free, rogues get their sneak attack bonus, and fighters can choose whatever direction they want...

Barbs have a lower AC, so for them killing things faster isn't an option, it's a way of life.

This is turning into the same discussion regarding Sorcs vs. Wizzys... One gets less feats, less spells and less customization, but here you are saying that's that the one with less is still too much... It's perfectly fine the way it is.


On topic, I hate "bring out the nerf bat" threads.
Truer words were never spoken.

MysticTheurge
12-07-2007, 08:21 AM
Um, wrong. Steroids in baseball is a perfect example. The Hulk is a good one as well... let's say Bruce Banner grabs a maladroit tree branch and starts swinging wildly... now allow our green friend to grab the same exact tree branch and tell me with a straight face that they will do dex damage on the exact same percentage of swings. I would go so far as to say that the dex damage dealt by the Hulk would be twice as inflicting (decrease dex twice as much per the same hit) but DDO doesn't use that mechanic, they use the mechanic to allow them to crit more often.

This doesn't make sense.

You're mixing a D&D/DDO mechanic with "real world" examples in a way that's entirely non-comparable.

Pick one or the other and stick with it. In fact, don't even pick "real world" examples. The Hulk does what he does while hulked because he's a superhero in a comic book and is entirely unrelated to D&D or Barbarians.

Show me what it is in D&D that suggests that Barbarians are supposed to have the best crit range of any class.

Mercules
12-07-2007, 08:34 AM
Um, wrong. Steroids in baseball is a perfect example. The Hulk is a good one as well... let's say Bruce Banner grabs a maladroit tree branch and starts swinging wildly... now allow our green friend to grab the same exact tree branch and tell me with a straight face that they will do dex damage on the exact same percentage of swings. I would go so far as to say that the dex damage dealt by the Hulk would be twice as inflicting (decrease dex twice as much per the same hit) but DDO doesn't use that mechanic, they use the mechanic to allow them to crit more often.

Um... Maldroit does damage on each hit. As long as you pass DR, it doesn't matter if you do 1 point or 100 points. ;) I think you mean Bone Breaking.

You understand the idea behind a critical hit and why certain weapons have higher crit ranges and some have higher crit damage, yes?

Rapier... a Finesse weapon. In fact it is a medium weapon that can be used with the Finesse feat. What is it's crit stats? 18-20 x2.
Heavy Pick... a brute weapon. Heavy and pointed. What is it's crit stats? 20 x4.

The rapier has a higher crit range because you are able to maneuver it well enough to hit specific critical areas. Vitals like the heart , an artery in their arm, a nerve cluster or muscle bundle, or something else that will cause a lot of damage be painful or lower their fighting effectiveness. Remember, HPs are NOT you actual health, they also represent your will to fight, endurance, and such.

The pick has a higher crit damage because if you manage to stick one of those vital areas with that, it is going to mangle the area much more than the slim elegant blade of a the rapier.

Notice, they both do 1d6 damage. The Greatsword, despite being larger, doesn't need to have a greater crit damage than a rapier because it's base damage makes up for the difference. It is just a wider, thicker blade going through.

So while it might make sense logic wise, for a Barbarian to get a Crit DAMAGE increase, it doesn't make sense for them to get a crit range increase while raging.

"I'm stronger and mentally unfocused so I was better able to hit a particular spot." <- Does this statement seem logical?
"I'm stronger and mentally unfocused so when I managed hit a vital spot it was devastating." <- That one seems about right.


Barbs can't be a crowd control melee using enhancements to trip and stunning blow.

Except both those things you mentioned get a bonus from Str making up for the enhancements.

MysticTheurge
12-07-2007, 08:36 AM
"I'm stronger and mentally unfocused so when I managed hit a vital spot it was devastating." <- That one seems about right.

And, to be honest, they're going to hit harder when they critical because they hit harder overall. Hence, the strength bonus.

Mithran
12-07-2007, 08:41 AM
I'm amazed at how dismissive everyone is of paladins, here (except Borror0).

I've grouped with a drow barbarian dual-wielding w/p rapiers, and when I have the same mob targeted, it's just an awesome sight to see the Health melt away. My poor GTWF elven paladin usually does well in the kill count, at least competing with fighters, but I don't think there's going to be any competing with anyone dual-wielding Wounding/Puncturing rapiers, especially with an increased crit range.

As often as I've played, I've yet to see a w/p rapier or shortsword drop.

I rolled a dwarven barbarian, and had no fun at all playing him; he was stopped dead in his tracks by EVERY kobold shaman, and having played clerics, it's pretty frustrating to get behind either a dwarven barb or a w/f barb when they're playing tank. My mana pool just can't keep up.

I have no sympathy for any melee class that is jealous of a caster's totals in the kill count, at level 14. 58 is my sorc's record in PotP, but that was when she took the time to kill off some extra paladins that had been spawned at the end and we had to get the second chest from the last room.

BlueLightBandit
12-07-2007, 09:51 AM
This doesn't make sense.

Show me what it is in D&D that suggests that Barbarians are supposed to have the best crit range of any class.


As many have pointed out before good sir, this game isn't D&D, it's DDO. And I think the presence of it in game is enough. Although I would go so far as to say that an increased strength of-and-by-itself would justify an increased crit range... yes, in the real world, not D&D.

Although we could just re-write the entire in-game class and combat system as you guys propose. That would work too.

The problem with the changes you guys are suggesting is that they are taken by many to be a step backwards. And too many people have placed a high value on balance over actually having fun. This game shouldn't be about balance, it should be about fun... The perfectly balanced game would be so boring it wouldn't be funny. (Backwards + Not Fun = Bad)

So if a barbarian does more DPS (as many argue that it should) and you want to do more DPS, then build a barbarian, heck, the beauty of the D&D ruleset is that you can even just splash some barbarian into your character for improved DPS.

HOWEVER, if you don't want to build a barbarian, don't complain that the few advantages one class has over another as justification to change the one class you don't want to play.

Mad_Bombardier
12-07-2007, 09:56 AM
Neither can twf rangers or rogues... it's an advantage for a barbarian because that's really all barbs get... a single tool that they can use effectively. To combat that fighters get a multitude of feats and can increase their usefulness in other ways. Barbs can't be a crowd control melee using enhancements to trip and stunning blow.My point exactly. People here seem to think that CritRage is the only benefit for Barbarian. It's not. Incredible STR, CON, and Fort & Will saves is more than enough benefit for Barbarians. And I find it hilarious that anyone thinks their THF Barb would be "gimped" with 58 STR and no CritRage.

nbhs275
12-07-2007, 09:58 AM
Don't forget Scourge Chokers. I think I've hit 55 STR on the Reaver Raid with only a +2 Tome. I should literally be able to pick him up and throw him across the room.

I love it, but I don't think there's a single creature, deity or demigod in the D&D universe that has that high of STR. Even Great Wyrms cap around 45 or so. Not that it needs to be nerfed.

In PnP a PC can easily break 50 str with a good set up, nevermind the dozens of infinite loops for str. Look at shifters.<11 barb/5 WTM>

18 base
+6 item
+2 rage potion
+6 barbarian rage
+4 levels
+2 tome
+16 shifting
________________
52 str

And thats without any crazy PRC, just ebberon core PRC. Nevermind that it also gets +14 con well doing it.

as far as the 14/6 FTR/rogue or whatever in PnP, it also just wouldnt compare to even a moderate binder build.

Not when the binder can have more SA bonuses then a pure rogue, and still get all kinds of neat MC tricks like death a dervish dance and invisibity.

Mercules
12-07-2007, 10:03 AM
As many have pointed out before good sir, this game isn't D&D, it's DDO. And I think the presence of it in game is enough. Although I would go so far as to say that an increased strength of-and-by-itself would justify an increased crit range... yes, in the real world, not D&D.

Ha! Ha! HA! I hit harder so I'm more likely to hit a vital area? Ha!

Oh, and your right, Dungeons&Dragons:Online is not Dungeons&Dragons... ignore the man behind the curtain.


Although we could just re-write the entire in-game class and combat system as you guys propose. That would work too.

The problem with the changes you guys are suggesting is that they are taken by many to be a step backwards. And too many people have placed a high value on balance over actually having fun. This game shouldn't be about balance, it should be about fun... The perfectly balanced game would be so boring it wouldn't be funny. (Backwards + Not Fun = Bad)

No... Balanced games ARE fun. Unbalanced games quickly become boring. Don't believe me, then you should go ask anyone who has played Rifts what the main problem is with it, and why they probably no longer play it. None of the classes are balanced.


So if a barbarian does more DPS (as many argue that it should) and you want to do more DPS, then build a barbarian, heck, the beauty of the D&D ruleset is that you can even just splash some barbarian into your character for improved DPS.

HOWEVER, if you don't want to build a barbarian, don't complain that the few advantages one class has over another as justification to change the one class you don't want to play.

Few.... Critical Rage is an oxymoron. You know, like Jumbo Shrimp. Barbarians would still be the highest DPS class(barring magic/spells) without Critical Rage. They still get numerous advantages others don't that make them viable. That advantage though is a bit over the top.

MysticTheurge
12-07-2007, 10:03 AM
As many have pointed out before good sir, this game isn't D&D, it's DDO. And I think the presence of it in game is enough.

The original argument I refuted was that barbarians were "supposed to" have the best crit ranges. That implies that there's a source other than the one being debated (DDO's Crit Rage) that would provide supporting evidence for the source in question to exist.

So no, in that case, it's existence in DDO is not enough.

nbhs275
12-07-2007, 10:11 AM
The original argument I refuted was that barbarians were "supposed to" have the best crit ranges. That implies that there's a source other than the one being debated (DDO's Crit Rage) that would provide supporting evidence for the source in question to exist.

So no, in that case, it's existence in DDO is not enough.

ahh, but by that estimation, there is nothing in pnp that suggest that fighters should have high strength either. I mean, WF is a fighter feat, so it must be intended for fighters to not have huge strengths.

At this point, the game has deviated from base 3.5 so heavily, that sighting it as a guideline is rather moot. I mean, action points are a completely different system in pnp ebberon. So to even argue the validity of any of them compared to pnp is rather useless.

MysticTheurge
12-07-2007, 10:18 AM
ahh, but by that estimation, there is nothing in pnp that suggest that fighters should have high strength either.

Yes, and the argument that class-specific ability-score enhancements are unsupported by D&D is a reasonable one.

I don't choose to champion that cause, but neither do I attempt to say that "Fighters are supposed to have higher strengths than everyone else." And, in fact, if someone were to argue that I'd point out that they were wrong.

I don't think Crit Rage should be tempered because it's not in keeping with D&D. I think it should be tempered because it seems a bit overpowered. But when someone attempts to refute that by stating that barbarians are "supposed to have the best crit ranges" I'm going to ask them what evidence they have to support that statement.

Mercules
12-07-2007, 10:29 AM
ahh, but by that estimation, there is nothing in pnp that suggest that fighters should have high strength either. I mean, WF is a fighter feat, so it must be intended for fighters to not have huge strengths.

At this point, the game has deviated from base 3.5 so heavily, that sighting it as a guideline is rather moot. I mean, action points are a completely different system in pnp ebberon. So to even argue the validity of any of them compared to pnp is rather useless.

You are right, there is nothing in PnP suggesting Clerics shouldn't be swinging their weapons or in combat. Since we are so far from that already we should forget about their weapon proficiencies and armor proficiencies and just give them a Healing aura instead since that is the view of Clerics in DDO.

Yes this is a Strawman. Yes I am aware it is not a logical argument, I was merely mimicking nbhs'. :)

Seriously though...
Claiming we have deviated enough from PnP that we might as well go further is a poor argument, especially when we know that the developers are bringing some things more in line with PnP. We have an ability that doesn't fit with the perception of a Raging Barbarian and gives them a significant advantage NOT available to others through any other means and not part of the class balanced rules but an addition to them through enhancements. The cost of the enhancement is 2 for the first +1 and 4 for the second +1 so 6 for a +2. This is vastly under priced compared to other enhancements other classes get for what it does. +1 to Crit range is a HUGE advantage. So... yes we should be examining this ability.

Alavatar
12-07-2007, 10:32 AM
ahh, but by that estimation, there is nothing in pnp that suggest that fighters should have high strength either. I mean, WF is a fighter feat, so it must be intended for fighters to not have huge strengths.

At this point, the game has deviated from base 3.5 so heavily, that sighting it as a guideline is rather moot. I mean, action points are a completely different system in pnp ebberon. So to even argue the validity of any of them compared to pnp is rather useless.

Actually, STR is the prime attribute of Fighters. It says so in the PHB. Just like CON is the prime attribute of Barbarians, DEX is the prime attribute of Rogues and Rangers, INT is the prime attribute of Wizards, etc.

Mercules
12-07-2007, 10:33 AM
Yes, and the argument that class-specific ability-score enhancements are unsupported by D&D is a reasonable one.

I don't choose to champion that cause, but neither do I attempt to say that "Fighters are supposed to have higher strengths than everyone else." And, in fact, if someone were to argue that I'd point out that they were wrong.


You and I both. Fighters can focus in so many different styles of combat that it is hard to say which physical stat would be more important to them, only that it would quite likely be a physical stat. I hate the, "You are a Cleric so you want Wisdom and Healing abilities." line of thought and I really wish my Paladin could pick up Divine Healing(which fits with Lay on Hands).

Enhancements are a way to force feed someone a couple different roles for their character and ignore other possibilities.

Renegade66
12-07-2007, 10:42 AM
The original argument I refuted was that barbarians were "supposed to" have the best crit ranges. That implies that there's a source other than the one being debated (DDO's Crit Rage) that would provide supporting evidence for the source in question to exist.

So no, in that case, it's existence in DDO is not enough.

Geesh, point made! There is no DnD source for this enhancement. So what? The devs put it in and it's cool. It helps give players a reason to play a Barbarian. I'm sure you remember when there were hardly any Barbarians around and it was incredibly difficult for a Barb to get on a team.

Adding the crit range was nice, so let's keep it. Nerfing AC was bad and really gimped pallies and fighters, so let's fix that.

woodspider
12-07-2007, 10:44 AM
My question is, Should fighters and dwarfs have armor mastery removed? I believe it is greatly over powered. Also do you all think if they "Nerf" Crit rage, that they will lowermobhp's? and should they?

Borror0
12-07-2007, 10:59 AM
My question is, Should fighters and dwarfs have armor mastery removed? I believe it is greatly over powered.

It'll be overpowered the day AC will matter more.

Besides, I'm still waiting to see a belt with Critical Rage II on it. ;)

Jaywade
12-07-2007, 11:02 AM
This crying isn't about DPS at all. It's about a few guys that had w/p rapiers on rangers and rogues and saw the the window.. Make a raging barb and poke stuff w/ toothpicks until it dies. As a pure DPS barb I hate the build, not because it kills very effeciently, but because it SURELY is NOT what comes to mind when you think of the HULK, CONAN or any other RAGING killing machine. This is about egos that are getting hurt and nothing more. Crit rage is fine, w/p weapons need to be scaled back more in there drops might be the answer. ANOTHER thing is to make the CRIT rage line exclusive to PURE barbs. We (pure barbs) don't want no stinking rogue,ranger,fighter types blended in our blood. We only want war and bloodshed.


couple of things ...no need to scale back the drops of W/P raqipers short swords or daggers.... the rarest items out there I've never seen one drop (and BTW I have to be one of the worst loot driven players in the game, all I seem do is ransack chests)...only heard a buddy pull a ss as a end reward for madstone......how many people do you know that have one let alone 2 ......the few that do ofcourse they build a elf barb why wouldn't you????. To change the crit range of raipers, or how W/P works or change crit range for barb for the handfull of people that have this combo is crazy.....and yes this is only about egos...if the stupid kill counter wasn't there there would be no arguement.....as far as making in only to pure barbs I don't like that either, you could argue that conan (your example) might of have a lvl or 2 of fighter or rogue in him (wasn't he trained as a gladitor seems fighter like to me ) the crit thing is fine it works really well w/ a couple of combo, (me I have a weeking /enfeebling Falchion that my barb loves to wack casters with, fun in pvp too) but I wouldn't say it's broken....

Mercules
12-07-2007, 11:07 AM
My question is, Should fighters and dwarfs have armor mastery removed? I believe it is greatly over powered. Also do you all think if they "Nerf" Crit rage, that they will lowermobhp's? and should they?

Fighter and Dwarven Armor Mastery stacking is another thread... and yes it should be looked into.

woodspider
12-07-2007, 11:18 AM
Fighter and Dwarven Armor Mastery stacking is another thread... and yes it should be looked into.


I disagree, when you take out the best enhancement for one class, for IMO no good reason. You shouldask your self, "How would it effect other class's if we did this".

Also, what is the main reason for wanting this Nerf implemented?(This is a serious question, I havent been able to find the answer yet)

Helmet
12-07-2007, 11:57 AM
My fighter has 55 ac and 37 umd, sprint attack greater cleave, etc etc etc

barbs dont get these things, its a very fair trade off, barbs NEED (100% NEED) the improved crit to be useful at all. If they didnt have it, there would be no reason to play a barb.

Borror0
12-07-2007, 12:02 PM
Also, what is the main reason for wanting this Nerf implemented?

Jealousy.

Cowdenicus
12-07-2007, 12:02 PM
I disagree, when you take out the best enhancement for one class, for IMO no good reason. You shouldask your self, "How would it effect other class's if we did this".

Also, what is the main reason for wanting this Nerf implemented?(This is a serious question, I havent been able to find the answer yet)

it is all about certain classes feeling barbs need a nerf. They want fighters back on top again, Great AC and best DPS.

woodspider
12-07-2007, 12:06 PM
it is all about certain classes feeling barbs need a nerf. They want fighters back on top again, Great AC and best DPS.

I am not sure if this is the cass, that is why I am asking. I playa barb anda fighter, I do not expect eiether to be able to compete with each other.

Jaywade
12-07-2007, 12:12 PM
I am not sure if this is the cass, that is why I am asking. I playa barb anda fighter, I do not expect eiether to be able to compete with each other.


well that puts you ahead of many of the posters here....wow common sense ...what a marvel that is...... see bro that's the problem you got folks that are upset casue their fighters get out killed by a robe wearing barb ....whole thing is silly

prodigy
12-07-2007, 12:13 PM
The easiest way to resolve this as far as I can see would be to remove the kill count from the summary sheet.

Jaywade
12-07-2007, 12:17 PM
The easiest way to resolve this as far as I can see would be to remove the kill count from the summary sheet.


amen

wouldn't mind seeing a total dmg count. or a per swing dam avg maybe even a avg crit number....get rid of the kill count....it has made me turn off voice chat too many times

Deragoth
12-07-2007, 12:35 PM
The easiest way to resolve this as far as I can see would be to remove the kill count from the summary sheet.
A perfect solution.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-07-2007, 04:21 PM
He's right. The metamagic changes made primary spellcasters (Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, maybe Bards) pretty darn butch.

Dont say that to a crowd control wizzy .....

Twerpp
12-07-2007, 04:53 PM
The easiest way to resolve this as far as I can see would be to remove the kill count from the summary sheet.


Here we go with the let's take good stuff away from the game BS and of course bozo's will jump right on this wagon.

How about we ask to add to it instead? Hit Points healed, Spell Damage done, total damage done, save spells landed, highest crit etc etc. Did you guys ever play Goldeneye on N64? How about awards like sniper, meatshield, kill-stealer, death-wish and other fun stuff? God forbid you should have some data to compare specs with, get competetive with, or even have a couple laughs about. Clerics should be proud of their 800 hp heal crits, mages should be proud of their 1500 pt nuke crits, and everyone has every right to be proud of their kill-count (and no it is not the end-all measurement of contribution to a group).

Lets just take everything out of the game that hurts peoples delicate feelings go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

Borror0
12-07-2007, 05:21 PM
Dont say that to a crowd control wizzy .....

Well, Enlarge and Quicken are cheaper and Extend is cheaper at higher level.

hennebux
12-07-2007, 06:12 PM
Again with the homers...

It's just this simple, 13-20 crit range is semi-overpowered... nothing more nothing less.
15-20 ok, everybody is kopasetic...

Shade
12-07-2007, 06:58 PM
Just let this useless thread die.

Turbine does not nerf, so this will never happen.

The only times in DDO where 1 enhancement/feat was weakened, others for that class were improved so the overall changes were a increase in power.. Thats how they rebalance.

So unless you want barbarians to be even more powerful with straight dmg instead of criticals, give up. Actually give up anyways and make a new better topic if thats the case.

hennebux
12-07-2007, 07:11 PM
just let this useless thread die

thnx johnny come lately for refuting everyones ideas without purporting your own...


Turbine does not nerf, so this will never happen.

Categorically untrue, ask any pure pally...

boldarblood
12-07-2007, 07:30 PM
I rolled a dwarven barbarian, and had no fun at all playing him; he was stopped dead in his tracks by EVERY kobold shaman, and having played clerics, it's pretty frustrating to get behind either a dwarven barb or a w/f barb when they're playing tank. My mana pool just can't keep up.

I have no sympathy for any melee class that is jealous of a caster's totals in the kill count, at level 14. 58 is my sorc's record in PotP, but that was when she took the time to kill off some extra paladins that had been spawned at the end and we had to get the second chest from the last room.


Dwarf Barbian will end up having higher saves than just about any melee class, including Paladins. When rages up with Dwarf Enhancments my Dwarf Barbarian makes saving throws vs Spell at over 30. Which is as high if not higher than a great majority of the Paladins out there. Don't bother trying to keep up healing the Barb, let there Hitpoints drop alot, then hit them with a heal. It is way more cost effective on your mana bar and the barb will have hitpoints to survive it. My barb who doesnt even use the Toughness feat still can approach 450-500 hitpoints.

As a person who plays almost exclusively melee, any caster who leads the kills is fine by me, the less wear and tear on my equipment. Any melee who doesnt see it that way is a tard. :P

Mercules
12-07-2007, 08:19 PM
Here we go with the let's take good stuff away from the game BS and of course bozo's will jump right on this wagon.

How about we ask to add to it instead? Hit Points healed, Spell Damage done, total damage done, save spells landed, highest crit etc etc. Did you guys ever play Goldeneye on N64? How about awards like sniper, meatshield, kill-stealer, death-wish and other fun stuff? God forbid you should have some data to compare specs with, get competetive with, or even have a couple laughs about. Clerics should be proud of their 800 hp heal crits, mages should be proud of their 1500 pt nuke crits, and everyone has every right to be proud of their kill-count (and no it is not the end-all measurement of contribution to a group).

Lets just take everything out of the game that hurts peoples delicate feelings go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

Or... we could have no stats and understand that that phrase, "Adventure Completed" is all most people really need to measure against. As a Cleric I would never have an 800 HP heal crit. Why? because no one has 800 HPs so I found better uses for those action points in other areas than crits. ;) "Wow... I healed him for 800 points." "Gee your so cool. He was only missing 80." :p

Cowdenicus
12-07-2007, 09:47 PM
Or... we could have no stats and understand that that phrase, "Adventure Completed" is all most people really need to measure against. As a Cleric I would never have an 800 HP heal crit. Why? because no one has 800 HPs so I found better uses for those action points in other areas than crits. ;) "Wow... I healed him for 800 points." "Gee your so cool. He was only missing 80." :p

Your right but I know some undead out there with well over 800 hp........

hennebux
12-07-2007, 11:01 PM
Keep switching the subject it's easier that way...

13-20 crit range is semi-overpowered at this lvl, this is an empirical fact...

I'm not saying it's just the build mechanics or the poorly planned weapons, but it is somewhere in between, and it needs tweaking...
Anyone who disagrees is merely protecting their interest, simple fact.

MysticTheurge
12-07-2007, 11:15 PM
Turbine does not nerf...

Heh. Are we talking about the same Turbine?

hennebux
12-07-2007, 11:57 PM
nah he's talking about ie:burnt

Hvymetal
12-08-2007, 05:24 AM
Just let this useless thread die.

Turbine does not nerf, so this will never happen.

The only times in DDO where 1 enhancement/feat was weakened, others for that class were improved so the overall changes were a increase in power.. Thats how they rebalance.

So unless you want barbarians to be even more powerful with straight dmg instead of criticals, give up. Actually give up anyways and make a new better topic if thats the case.
LOL you're kidding right? Ever play a pure Pally?

gpk
12-08-2007, 06:43 AM
Turbine does not nerf, so this will never happen.


LOL thanks I needed the laugh.

IIRC don't you play a Barbarian and Sorcerer?
I suppose you think your Sorc didn't double in power in mod5?

Lifespawn
12-08-2007, 07:59 AM
the 800 hp heal isn't the reason to take the crit lines it's the cure light for 250 thats is the reason,nothing better than being in a bind and on cooldowns and u throw a desperate cure light and wham the guy is full and the group is safe.

That aside cmon ppl 13-20 crit range is insane and severly widens the gap between barbs and any other dps build and it's only going to get worse as the barbs rages get more powerful.Blah blah blah fighters get so many feats yes all the feats a fighter can take will not get them the same damage or even close to what a bard can.Blah blah blah fighters get better ac my 8 ac barb with 400+hp's can survive better than my turtled 50+ ac fighter becayse mobs die fast so less damage is taken and barbs "ac" is their hp's.

If the enhancment didn't stack with the improved crit feat i think it would balance out eventually going to -3 on the crit ranges so a barb could wield a maul or greatclub and get a 17-20 crit range without need for the feat and still have better range than any other class in that area.

I mean cmon how would all the barbs defending this vastly overpowered enhancment feel if fighters got more critical multipliers from enhancments because they specialize on certain weapons and therefore know how to hit to make it hurt the most,say fighter with 2 lvls of enhancment on the same progression as these crit rages each adding x1 to the crit multiplier barbs would be ****ed to see a fighter with a greataxe 17-20x5 or a pick with 19-20x6.

This is the way barbs crit rage should be looked at don't get me wrong i love having it on my barb and when he hits 14 and can use w/p rapiers for 13-20 crits it would be very nice but cmon even tho i want to be able to do it it's overpowered.

KoolHand
12-08-2007, 08:41 AM
That aside cmon ppl 13-20 crit range is insane and severly widens the gap between barbs and any other dps build and it's only going to get worse as the barbs rages get more powerful.Blah blah blah fighters get so many feats yes all the feats a fighter can take will not get them the same damage or even close to what a bard can. sorry, but fighters and rangers are NOT supposed to be even in the DPS area as a pure Barbarian. This is the builds only reason fro being, to deal massive damgage. They give up many things to accomplish this.

This is the way barbs crit rage should be looked at don't get me wrong i love having it on my barb and when he hits 14 and can use w/p rapiers for 13-20 crits it would be very nice but cmon even tho i want to be able to do it it's overpowered. This is the whole reason fro the thread, as I stated eariler. STOP screaming 13-20 crit range. MOST people go imprv'd slash so the only weapon that crits that low is a falchion or the SOS; which I just got after a combined 67 runs, (only seen 1 other drop during that time.) This again is about a person seeing the numbers and building a specilaty build with the rearest weapons in the game, w/p RAPIERS.. someone said eariler about w/p ss and daggers. while awesome weapons they are NOT in the w/p rapiers league. If the build is designed like a true barb. to deal insane amounts of damgage then this would not be an issue. The issue again is w/p RAPIERS and the abilty to outkill all other melee. THIS had NOTHING to do with DPS !!!

MysticTheurge
12-08-2007, 09:13 AM
sorry, but fighters and rangers are NOT supposed to be even in the DPS area as a pure Barbarian.

Yes, which is why they can get 7 strength over a fighter and 10 over a ranger, plus 6 extra damage from power attack

As you point out in your second paragraph, trying to increase their DPS by increasing their crit range has other problematic side effects.

Honestly, I'd rather see a line of Barbarian enhancements that increases their critical multiplier instead of their critical range, even though it would probably result in largely the same difference in DPS (if not more). Because at least that would be in keeping with the iconic nature of a barbarian.

Barbarian Critical Rage I

Requires Barbarian 11, 2 AP, must have spent 38 AP

You increase your critical multiplier by 1 while raging, regardless of your weapon.

Barbarian Critical Rage II

Requires Barbarian 14, Barbarian Critical Rage I, 4 AP, must have spent 48 AP

You increase your critical multiplier by 2 while raging, regardless of your weapon.

Anyone feel like running the numbers on those and seeing how the damage compares for various weapons?

woodspider
12-08-2007, 09:21 AM
Yes, which is why they can get 7 strength over a fighter and 10 over a ranger, plus 6 extra damage from power attack

As you point out in your second paragraph, trying to increase their DPS by increasing their crit range has other problematic side effects.

Honestly, I'd rather see a line of Barbarian enhancements that increases their critical multiplier instead of their critical range, even though it would probably result in largely the same difference in DPS (if not more). Because at least that would be in keeping with the iconic nature of a barbarian.

Barbarian Critical Rage I

Requires Barbarian 11, 2 AP, must have spent 38 AP

You increase your critical multiplier by 1 while raging, regardless of your weapon.

Barbarian Critical Rage II

Requires Barbarian 14, Barbarian Critical Rage I, 4 AP, must have spent 48 AP

You increase your critical multiplier by 2 while raging, regardless of your weapon.

Anyone feel like running the numbers on those and seeing how the damage compares for various weapons?


Dern it MT, I realy wanted to have a good discussion about this with you last night! Alas, I think we had to much fun at the Gala.

So in closing, Until Armor mastery and mob hit points get fixed, I do not have a problem with Barb crit. rage.

MysticTheurge
12-08-2007, 09:30 AM
So in closing, Until Armor mastery and mob hit points get fixed, I do not have a problem with Barb crit. rage.

Like I said, I don't really have a problem with the effects necessarily. Barbarians should get more DPS, that makes sense and it's all good. But I don't particularly like the way Barbarian Critical Rage accomplishes that at present.

I'm really kind of curious how the two above Crit Rage enhancements compare in terms of damage with the current two. But I've never been particularly good with that sort of weapon damage calculation math.

Jaywade
12-08-2007, 09:33 AM
That aside cmon ppl 13-20 crit range is insane and severly widens the gap between barbs and any other dps build and it's only going to get worse as the barbs rages get more powerful.

the 13-20 crit range doesn;t mean anything in the DPS game......this is about that crit range w/ a W/P raiper ...to say something is overpowered or broken when you would need the rarest of weapons to crazy...I mean how many of these things are around....I know 2 people that dule wield them,...that's it....so it's broken for 2 people on my server ....say there are 10 people on each server so casue 40 folks can kill only some mobs w/ amazing speed something is broken...leave it alone I say


If the enhancment didn't stack with the improved crit feat i think it would balance out eventually going to -3 on the crit ranges so a barb could wield a maul or greatclub and get a 17-20 crit range without need for the feat and still have better range than any other class in that area.
it needs to stack this is wear the real DPS comes from if you were using a great axe or duel weilding heavy picks you need that xtra crit range...

I mean cmon how would all the barbs defending this vastly overpowered enhancment feel if fighters got more critical multipliers from enhancments because they specialize on certain weapons and therefore know how to hit to make it hurt the most,say fighter with 2 lvls of enhancment on the same progression as these crit rages each adding x1 to the crit multiplier barbs would be ****ed to see a fighter with a greataxe 17-20x5 or a pick with 19-20x6.

there should be something like that on the way...it makes sense....for a feat fighters should get to increase the crit mult by 1 (so axe goes X3 to X4 ) in a weapon that they choose ....they have it in NWN2

This is the way barbs crit rage should be looked at don't get me wrong i love having it on my barb and when he hits 14 and can use w/p rapiers for 13-20 crits it would be very nice but cmon even tho i want to be able to do it it's overpowered.

I don't think ir's broken...powerfull yes WHEN you use W/P raipers (again not a whole lot of them around)...but don;t lose sight that this same build does less DPS against red named and purple named mobs (less dps than a 2HF) and unless you have disruptors I bet undead wouldn't be much fun as well)[/COLOR
[COLOR="Black"]honestly I think this is okay we have to remember why cool for those handfull of peole that have W/P rapiers and roll barbs for them it' not that big of a deal
[

Renegade66
12-08-2007, 10:06 AM
[COLOR="red"]but don;t lose sight that this same build does less DPS against red named and purple named mobs (less dps than a 2HF) and unless you have disruptors I bet undead wouldn't be much fun as well

Power Attack, Twin Deathnips or Deathnip and Greater Bane will keep up with DPS of a THF on Red/Purple bosses.

maddong
12-08-2007, 01:40 PM
The whole problem with the crit rage is they will either add crit rage III to encourage pure barbs which will be uber over powered or you will have everyone playing a 14 barb/6 fighter hybrid. Because 6 fighter levels is a lot better than 4 extra strength from rage and not having to drink lesser restore pots. I agree that crit rage should be in the game because before there was no reason to play a barb. They should change the level of crit rage II to 16. Otherwise they are going to have to add some other ridiculously overpowered enhancement to keep the barbarians pure.

woodspider
12-08-2007, 03:06 PM
The whole problem with the crit rage is they will either add crit rage III to encourage pure barbs which will be uber over powered or you will have everyone playing a 14 barb/6 fighter hybrid. Because 6 fighter levels is a lot better than 4 extra strength from rage and not having to drink lesser restore pots. I agree that crit rage should be in the game because before there was no reason to play a barb. They should change the level of crit rage II to 16. Otherwise they are going to have to add some other ridiculously overpowered enhancement to keep the barbarians pure.

They may just add another powerfull enhancement for only level 20 Barbs.

Jaywade
12-08-2007, 03:21 PM
Power Attack, Twin Deathnips or Deathnip and Greater Bane will keep up with DPS of a THF on Red/Purple bosses.


bro I've seen you play.....again I ask how many peole have 2 W/P rapiers and 1 or 2 deathnips??? we know the build can kill, not to many peole have that kinda of gear ..... it's a easier to get a decent great axe than the stuff jellybean using...most 2HF barbs will out DAMAGE a pirece spec Barb when it comes to straight Damage on red named and undead stuff...maybe not you ....but most of them....surely you don't think otherwise

gpk
12-08-2007, 06:09 PM
Yes, which is why they can get 7 strength over a fighter and 10 over a ranger, plus 6 extra damage from power attack

As you point out in your second paragraph, trying to increase their DPS by increasing their crit range has other problematic side effects.

Honestly, I'd rather see a line of Barbarian enhancements that increases their critical multiplier instead of their critical range, even though it would probably result in largely the same difference in DPS (if not more). Because at least that would be in keeping with the iconic nature of a barbarian.

Barbarian Critical Rage I

Requires Barbarian 11, 2 AP, must have spent 38 AP

You increase your critical multiplier by 1 while raging, regardless of your weapon.

Barbarian Critical Rage II

Requires Barbarian 14, Barbarian Critical Rage I, 4 AP, must have spent 48 AP

You increase your critical multiplier by 2 while raging, regardless of your weapon.

Anyone feel like running the numbers on those and seeing how the damage compares for various weapons?



From the rough numbers I've run thats actually a LOT more powerful, and I'm not even factoring in bard buffs. Scary strong!

MysticTheurge
12-08-2007, 06:27 PM
From the rough numbers I've run thats actually a LOT more powerful, and I'm not even factoring in bard buffs. Scary strong!

Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

You could always do them in increments of half a multiplier. (i.e. +0.5 crit multiplier for tier I and +1 crit multiplier for tier II)

Regardless of the exact numbers, I'd much rather see a Crit Rage enhancement that increased Barbarian DPS by increasing the multiplier instead of the threat range.

gpk
12-08-2007, 07:04 PM
Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

You could always do them in increments of half a multiplier. (i.e. +0.5 crit multiplier for tier I and +1 crit multiplier for tier II)

Regardless of the exact numbers, I'd much rather see a Crit Rage enhancement that increased Barbarian DPS by increasing the multiplier instead of the threat range.

Idk, I still think it's a bad idea to play with melee crits at all for just 1 class. Imagine if only Sorcerers got Spell Crits but not Wizards or Clerics; that's pretty much the case here.

Jaywade
12-08-2007, 07:20 PM
Idk, I still think it's a bad idea to play with melee crits at all for just 1 class. Imagine if only Sorcerers got Spell Crits but not Wizards or Clerics; that's pretty much the case here.


i understand what you are saying but we don;t know what's instore as far as feat's or enhancements for fighter, or rangers...pally's well they are out of luck I would guess....I would bet you there will be something for fighters in t he way of crit's....rangers too I hope....but at this current lvl cap ...just barbs having it is not broken or unfair ....honesty it's not play a barb ...it's cool to unleash all that DPS just make sure ther cleric's in sight range

MysticTheurge
12-08-2007, 07:33 PM
Idk, I still think it's a bad idea to play with melee crits at all for just 1 class. Imagine if only Sorcerers got Spell Crits but not Wizards or Clerics; that's pretty much the case here.

I agree, on principle.

Of course you can also fix this by playing with them for everyone.

Barbarians hit harder while they're raged -> Higher crit multiplier while raged.
Fighters are more skilled at using their weapons to the fullest degree -> Higher threat range.
Paladins hit harder against evil opponents -> Higher crit multiplier against evil enemies.
Rangers hit harder and/or are more likely to hit a vital area against the targets they study -> Higher threat range or multiplier (or both) against favored enemies.
Rogues hit harder and/or are more likely to hit a vital area with their sneak attacks - Higher threat range or multiplier (or both) on sneak attacks.

You, perhaps, need to tweak the degrees (and, perhaps, other things as well) on each of those, so they're balanced based on the various degrees to which those classes find themselves in those situations.

gpk
12-08-2007, 07:58 PM
I agree, on principle.

Of course you can also fix this by playing with them for everyone.

Barbarians hit harder while they're raged -> Higher crit multiplier while raged.
Fighters are more skilled at using their weapons to the fullest degree -> Higher threat range.
Paladins hit harder against evil opponents -> Higher crit multiplier against evil enemies.
Rangers hit harder and/or are more likely to hit a vital area against the targets they study -> Higher threat range or multiplier (or both) against favored enemies.
Rogues hit harder and/or are more likely to hit a vital area with their sneak attacks - Higher threat range or multiplier (or both) on sneak attacks.

You, perhaps, need to tweak the degrees (and, perhaps, other things as well) on each of those, so they're balanced based on the various degrees to which those classes find themselves in those situations.

See there's another problem there, because Bbn in DDO have highter str and power attack enhancements, anything that touches the crit threat rage or multiplier is is much more powerful to a barbarian than to any other class.
The gap is likely to only widen at higher levels.

The point I've tried to make in another thread/post is that thus far balancing tweak in DDO have been very slowly implemented. A class that may have needed a balance tweak in mod2 gets it in mod4 when it's no longer relevant, and gameplay suffers as such. I haven't observed Bbn being underpowered in mod3,4 or 5. Is Crit Rage part of the "love" that Bbns may have needed in mod2?

Idk maybe its better to give Barbies back their +2 Power Rage Str and forget Crit Rage ever happened. Playing around with class specific crits is a very slippery slope, imho it's too risky to touch at all.

MysticTheurge
12-08-2007, 10:25 PM
Playing around with class specific crits is a very slippery slop, imho it's too risky to touch at all.

You make a good argument here.

I could settle for just toning down or eliminating Crit Rage. Assuming there are no other reasonable alternatives.

Mhykke
12-08-2007, 11:12 PM
You make a good argument here.

I could settle for just toning down or eliminating Crit Rage. Assuming there are no other reasonable alternatives.


I can see pushing back II to lvl 16.....but getting rid of crit range? I'd think that'd be awfully close to putting us back to "why play a barb?"

You'd have ftrs and barbs doing fairly similar damage...but ftrs would have a gross number of feats to play with.....any marginal advantage in damage barbs might have after getting rid of crit range wouldn't be worth it....

If the devs did this, and did nothing else, I'd seriously think about deleting my barb to replace w/ another character.

gpk
12-09-2007, 12:01 AM
I can see pushing back II to lvl 16.....but getting rid of crit range? I'd think that'd be awfully close to putting us back to "why play a barb?"

You'd have ftrs and barbs doing fairly similar damage...but ftrs would have a gross number of feats to play with.....any marginal advantage in damage barbs might have after getting rid of crit range wouldn't be worth it....

If the devs did this, and did nothing else, I'd seriously think about deleting my barb to replace w/ another character.

Ya how do you like your pally since mod 4 ? :)

Idk personally I think they should have gone a different route, instead of Crit Rage you can have a Massive Criticals enhancements (extra damage on crits), something like 2d6 for Mass Crit 1 and 4d6 for Mass Crit 2 (or stronger, testing would show what's needed). There are other ways to do it.

Let me ask you this: How many felt their barbarians were underpowered in mod3? How many casters felt they were underpowered in mod4 pre Spell Point fix?
But then again, maybe I'm wasting my breath arguing over barbarians dominance over the other melee classes when there are bigger fish to fry...

It is a GAME and there has to be some type of overrall balance. Tweaking balance across 8,10,12 months is not balance at all.

KoolHand
12-10-2007, 11:11 AM
walking nukers, hitting "the right" enemies for 1-2 THOUSAND points of damg from a single cast !!!! My drow pally has hit for 279 on a crit smit W/O power attack !!! A 2 hnd FIGHTER can do as much damg buy using feats to expand his glancing blows, while still investing in his ac or tactics. I stress AGAIN , this entire thread is more about the w/p dual wielding build then any true DPS build.
If you wanna cry, cry about that !!! I haev read builds for drow barbs w/ precision and other ****... Very effective, but SO NOT a barbarian... People will ALWAYS develope NICHE toons. What does those pierce spec'd barbs with the w/p raipers do on undead quest or construct quests or against boss's ?? nothing much unless they have smiter rapiers and diruptors. Leave the crit rage line be. Stop worrying about the kill count so much and just enjoy the character your playing.

Hvymetal
12-10-2007, 11:19 AM
Hmmm I am wondering if maybe just removing the immunity red/purple names have to trip/stun might not help out w/ a bit of the rebalancing? Sure the Barbs can do it too but more than likely they won't have the int or feats to get the improved version and might help close the gap by making a fighter better at what a fighter is supposed to do, use skill and expertise to overcome their enemies?

Cold_Stele
12-10-2007, 04:56 PM
AC was king until people like the OP started crying for a nerf. Turbine happily obliged. Now DPS is king. The OP wants to nerf that.

Hmmm, you did actually read my original post right?

What I invited discussion on was leveling the field by adjusting crit ranges for all melees, not a nerf on Barbs.

I have no problem with Barbs remaining kings of DPS by virtue of their incredible STR, CON, HP, Fort & Will saves - the enhancement system is only building on existing PnP archetypes - nothing in PnP gives Barbarians the best crit range of any class.


Fighters are not supposed to BALANCE with a barbarian's DPS OR crit range, THAT IS WHAT MAKES A BARBARIAN A BARBARIAN! You fighters in favor of taking away the barbarian critical rage, I say take away half your feats. You guys that want your fighters to have the same critical rage, I say give the barbarians 6 extra feats.

Done ;)

Let's take a 40 STR Human Ftr with all 5 slashing feats - max damage with a +5 greataxe is 53 (1d12 + 5 weapon +4 wpn specialization + 22 STR +10 PA) with a crit range of 19-20/x3.

A 47 STR Human Barb with no slash feats whatsoever gets a maximum of 60 (1d12 +5 weapon + 27 STR + 16 PA) with a crit range of 18-20/x3.

So the barb gets way more benefit from his Str/crit range than 5 Weapon Spec/Focus/Imp Crit feats give a Ftr.

Given they work for slash/blunt/pierce that's worth more than 15 feats.

To make myself clear one last time (cos Barbs are getting nervous and upset) - I'm saying keep your Str, Con, HP, DR, etc, etc as it's based on the core material. Crit Rage has nothing to do with PnP - the damage is done now and it's bad for the game to bring in the nerf bat, therefore the only way to restore balance is for the crit ranges being upped for all melees - that's not a nerf.

Renegade66
12-10-2007, 05:06 PM
Hmmm, you did actually read my original post right?

What I invited discussion on was leveling the field by adjusting crit ranges for all melees, not a nerf on Barbs.


I did. You can talk "leveling" all you want. In the end, all the devs will end up doing is nerfing the high end.

As an example, when everyone was playing high AC fighters and no one Barbarians, the devs could have simply beefed up barbarians a bit to give a reason to play them and maybe tweaked down AC a bit. Instead, they chose to break out the 16 lb sledge and nerf the holy hell out of AC leaving fighters and pallies gimped and thus barbarians "relatively" better off. They helped a bit more with the crit range enhancement, but gave no incentive to play pallies and fighters. Thus AC no longer king, fighters are gimped and pallies are worse. DPS is king. Might at well play a Barbarian.

Leveling posts walk a slippery slope. I've never seen one result in changes that were applauded by the DDO community in large. Your thread is one that I wish never would have seen the light of day. You may get a victory with the devs nerfing the crit range, but what will you have won? Barbs will be worse off and bitter. Fighters will only be "relatively" better off at the expense of barbarians.

KoolHand
12-10-2007, 05:15 PM
sounds like to me you want a pure fighter build that excels in tactics,saves,ac, has nice hitpoints and can hit nearly as hard as a raging barbarian.. many barbarians take pwr attack, improv'd crit slash, toughness and maybe another 2 hnd fight feat. THAT'S ALL they get. Your pure fighter can take all the same feats + more + more + more. These can help w/ trip, stunning blow, ac, saves, DPS by way of glancing blows. Come on now. For the crit rage a pure barbarian has a few options where as a fighter has several. Crit rage is fine.

Jaywade
12-10-2007, 05:43 PM
sounds like to me you want a pure fighter build that excels in tactics,saves,ac, has nice hitpoints and can hit nearly as hard as a raging barbarian.. many barbarians take pwr attack, improv'd crit slash, toughness and maybe another 2 hnd fight feat. THAT'S ALL they get. Your pure fighter can take all the same feats + more + more + more. These can help w/ trip, stunning blow, ac, saves, DPS by way of glancing blows. Come on now. For the crit rage a pure barbarian has a few options where as a fighter has several. Crit rage is fine.

/agree

Ren is a bit more drastic a couple of posts above...don't think fighters are gimped(pally's I won't comment on) ...just don't have the same Max DPS as barbs and that's fine.....again I think we wil see a feat that will help fighters in the next couple of lvls...remember we're not done yet....what might seem out of balance today might be seen as balanced at lvl 20 in the meta game that lvl cap will present..... have fighters have the same thing as a enhancement line as barbs and all the feats that they get would be insane.... I'd like that too I hope that this thread doesn;t bring the nerf "slegde" out and kill our barbs.... again I think this whole thread is a bit of nonsense casue it's only seems unfair (and it's not BTW) w/ one build type that needs insane gear to power it and the stupid kill count meter....

DesertBlue
12-10-2007, 06:02 PM
This is an obsulete discussion.

2 weeks ago we had a 3 man race for 100kpp. Solo LotD to the Black Dragon on Elite. The contestants were a cleric and 2 sorcerers. Note that no melee class was even considered. The Sorc I thought would win won. The cleric came in second. All 3 finished very fast. Sure I could solo it on my tank too, but I wouldnt be racing a sorc for pp and dont have the time to take it that slow. (Hit Kai teng 5 times then run around and pop lesser restores on myself, rinse and repeat for 20 minutes. LOL no thx.)

Nevertheless, my main is a Fighter11/Pali3. Barbarians should out DPS him all day long when raged. They wont outkill him but they should be able to hit harder. Leave the Barbs alone, not only are they doing what they are supposed to, outdamaging all other melee classes, but it's a waste of time at this stage of the progression anyway. They are all interference, if you will.


P.S. No I am not advocating the weakening of casters.

Jaywade
12-10-2007, 06:10 PM
what scares me about this thread is what going to happened w/ everyone wakes up and sees that arcanes are amazing and will only get bigger and more powerfull..... roll a wizz to lvl cap ....then roll a sorc....soon no one will want to play melee's and understand this ...it's suposed to be this way ...I mean a 20th lvl sorc should be godlike in power...a 20th lvl figher or barb sure they might be able to kill orc's by the dozen but a 20th lvl sorc or wizz can do it by the 100's.....I can see the screaming for re-balanceing now

ghale
12-10-2007, 06:58 PM
what scares me about this thread is what going to happened w/ everyone wakes up and sees that arcanes are amazing and will only get bigger and more powerfull..... roll a wizz to lvl cap ....then roll a sorc....soon no one will want to play melee's and understand this ...it's suposed to be this way ...I mean a 20th lvl sorc should be godlike in power...a 20th lvl figher or barb sure they might be able to kill orc's by the dozen but a 20th lvl sorc or wizz can do it by the 100's.....I can see the screaming for re-balanceing now

Shhh...don't drag sorcerors or wizards into this. Let everyone just argue about melee dps which can't even compare to a caster :).

Cold_Stele
12-11-2007, 04:43 AM
sounds like to me you want a pure fighter build that excels in tactics,saves,ac, has nice hitpoints and can hit nearly as hard as a raging barbarian..

Um, yes.

...Excels in Trip (which Barbs can do anyway as Trip is Str based, plus the Barb's probably a Dorf and can take Dorf Tactics) - but no-one can cos Trips been nerfed. Stunning Blow is really only for the minority of blunt specced Ftrs.

...Has nice HP (never going to be as nice as Barb of course) with Toughness feat and Ftr's Toughness. To make up for it I get +3 AC from FAM cos I go for 5 pts of DR with Stonemeld plate - but a Barb doesn't need that of course. If I wore mith FP like many others FAM would get me nothing, cos I don't have a higher Dex defensive build. Even if I did - with no shield, what are those few points of AC going to do?

...I can't have nice saves (that burns a lot of feats on Iron Will, LOH, Bullheaded and/or Lightning Reflexes - offensive Ftrs don't have that many to spare).

...Hit nearly as hard as a raging barbarian - I would like to seeing as I'm spending 9 feats on offense (3 THF, 4 Wpn Foc + Spec, Imp Crit and PA) - that's the equivalent of 18 levels of Ftr Bonus Feats! But it's never going to be possible because of Crit Rage. Not being able to hit as hard because of the Rage Str difference though? I have no problem with that...

You'd think that I was asking for the impossible or something...?



But now let's talk about this 50 AC myth you guys keep throwing out there -

Any of you Barbs can dramatically up your AC too, this is all you have to do -

Dump points into Int from Str/Con and take CE (anyone can you know). Of course you can't run around with PA.

Dump points into Dex from Str/Con (cos your Dorf right?) and take DAM.

Use a shield.

If any of you think that a Defensive Ftr/Intimitank who sacrifices offense as much as this and will ever get a DPS even in the same league as a Barb (with or without Crit Rage) then you're deluding yourselves, or attempting to mislead others.


many barbarians take pwr attack, improv'd crit slash, toughness and maybe another 2 hnd fight feat. THAT'S ALL they get. Your pure fighter can take all the same feats + more + more + more. These can help w/ trip, stunning blow, ac, saves, DPS by way of glancing blows. Come on now. For the crit rage a pure barbarian has a few options where as a fighter has several. Crit rage is fine.

Seriously bud apart from the feats you mention (THF, PA and Imp Crit, maybe Toughness) what else do you need???

The sexy feats with high BAB requirement you have already. If having Toughness AND Superior THF was so important to you then you could have gone Human - but you won't of course.

Once you have all the essential feats (which you do) all the others are BAB 1 requirement which any noob in the harbour could be running around with. They may add a little flavor but they're not going to break the game.

Not like Crit Rage ;)

KoolHand
12-11-2007, 05:28 AM
you CAN'T expect to have ALL the fighter feats you get and still wanna be on lvl with a barbarian in 1 SWING DAMGAGE..
That is NUTZZ !!! It was NEVER intended for a fighter class to out DPS a barbarian class.

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 05:47 AM
you CAN'T expect to have ALL the fighter feats you get and still wanna be on lvl with a barbarian. It Was NEVER intended to be that way. BARBARIANS are made to excell at ONE thing DAMGAGE !! They give it and they take ALOT !!!
When the only retort boils down to "roll a barbarian then" that right there should point to a problem. No one is saying equal damage, a Barb even without extended crit range (which I am not advocating removing) would still out DPS a Fighter. Please stop trying to create a Strawman argument.

KoolHand
12-11-2007, 05:55 AM
It is class specific.. Barbarians are made to do insane amounts of damg FAST ( one swing type) hence the nekkid dude w/ loin cloth type guy. Fighters are made to battle. Does a fighter get fatigued after using an attack boost ?? Does a fighter set in the back of the back once his rages are used up or is fatigued from raging ?? The point is this a fighter that wants to use a 2 handed weapon is still a fighter. He is doing more dps then a 1 handed fighter w/ the loss of ac. He is STILL a fighter, NOT a barbarian that is using a 2 handed weapon. PERIOD !! You want to run like a barb then ROLL a barb. nothing wrong with that statement !!

gpk
12-11-2007, 06:07 AM
It is class specific.. Barbarians are made to do insane amounts of damg FAST ( one swing type) hence the nekkid dude w/ loin cloth type guy. Fighters are made to battle. Does a fighter get fatigued after using an attack boost ?? Does a fighter set in the back of the back once his rages are used up or is fatigued from raging ?? The point is this a fighter that wants to use a 2 handed weapon is still a fighter. He is doing more dps then a 1 handed fighter w/ the loss of ac. He is STILL a fighter, NOT a barbarian that is using a 2 handed weapon. PERIOD !! You want to run like a barb then ROLL a barb. nothing wrong with that statement !!

Fatigue? That's really a "down side"? LOL Before you could chain rage and now u drink a lesser restore potion after rage wears off, fatigue gone. And again loss of AC hasn't been an issue since Mod4, please do your homewok 1st.
I won't bother dissecting the rest of your post for obvious reasons...

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:09 AM
When the only retort boils down to "roll a barbarian then" that right there should point to a problem. No one is saying equal damage, a Barb even without extended crit range (which I am not advocating removing) would still out DPS a Fighter. Please stop trying to create a Strawman argument.

so what is the percentage that a fighters 8 feats are worth (since critical rage in ddo is a part of rage)

What is 8 feats worth???? is it worth 50% the dps of a barbarian? 60%??? 70%?

I tell you what I will give up 70% of the dps on my cleric for an extra 8 feats.......

KoolHand
12-11-2007, 06:17 AM
answer the one point about rages being out then.. Come on tell me I must not know anything. For obvious reasons point stuff out. I would love to be blessed by your knowledge. A barbarian is only as good as his rages. Drink that lesser restore pot when your raged in the middle of a fight, oops have to cool down rage, then rage again. Ohh crit rage is only effective when I'm raging, so if I'm out of rages then I'm just so so. So dissect all you want. A barbarian is what it is and a fighter is what is it, which ISN'T a barbarian.

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 06:23 AM
since critical rage in ddo is a part of rage

It's not that simple.

gpk
12-11-2007, 06:26 AM
answer the one point about rages being out then.. Come on tell me I must not know anything. For obvious reasons point stuff out. I would love to be blessed by your knowledge. A barbarian is only as good as his rages. Drink that lesser restore pot when your raged in the middle of a fight, oops have to cool down rage, then rage again. Ohh crit rage is only effective when I'm raging, so if I'm out of rages then I'm just so so. So dissect all you want. A barbarian is what it is and a fighter is what is it, which ISN'T a barbarian.

First of all not being able to drink a lesser restore pot durign rage is a BUG, anyone in the party can hit you with a lesser restore froma spell, wand or POTION. I've brought up the bug quite a few times msyelf as have others, maybe you should too.
When was the last time a barbarian wasn't raged during combat? Wich good con and enhancements easily keep you raged throughout any quest, to say otherwise is a blatant ommision of the truth.
But perhaps you have a point, maybe we should limit Rage's duration to even thigns out. Oh no wait thats no good either, all that leads is to more zerging like we had in the old days before LR fixed exhaustion. Barbarians would just zerg and chain rage non stop so as to never be without rage. An excellent point, thanks for bringing it up.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:29 AM
It's not that simple.

It isnt, I must have missed something because I could have sworn I seen it in DDO, and it is an (optional) function of rage in DDO.

When it comes down to it in DDO it is really simple.....

Fighters get fighter feats...... (and any enhancements based off of this)

Barbarians get rage (and any enhancements based off of this)

If there is an imbalance, then maybe fighters need to ask for Turbine to look at their enhancements instead of asking for barbarians to be nerfed.

That being said, I would be very careful as a fighter asking for too in depth of a look, because fighters are pretty strong as is.

gpk
12-11-2007, 06:38 AM
If there is an imbalance, then maybe fighters need to ask for Turbine to look at their enhancements instead of asking for barbarians to be nerfed.


Awesome, every fighter should start demanding improved weapon critical 2: increases the chosen weapon type's critical range by 2.

Paladins, Divine Favor Critical 2: Makes your Divine Favor non dispellable and increases critical range for all weapons by 2.

Rangers, Favored Enemy Critical 2 etc etc.

Oh wait, there's that small matter of barbarians getting better base strenrgh and enhancements that get multiplied by a better critical, but that doesn't matter.

Why stop there? By your logic every melee class should be demanding 2 feats that will double the damage dealt to keep up with casters in Mod5. But wait those feats will only come in Mod8.

But then again, as you've said in another thread, you believe that Mod5 is the 1st mod where there is balance between casters and melee...

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 06:41 AM
Awesome, every fighter should start demanding improved weapon critical 2: increases the chosen weapon type's critical range by 2.

Paladins, Divine Favor Critical 2: Makes your Divine Favor non dispellable and increases critical range for all weapons by 2.

Rangers, Favored Enemy Critical 2 etc etc.

Oh wait, there's that small matter of barbarians getting better base strenrgh and enhancements that get multiplied by a better critical, but that doesn't matter.

Why stop there? By your logic every melee class should be demanding 2 feats that will double the damage dealt to keep up with casters in Mod5. But wait those feats will only come in Mod8.

But then again, as you've said in another thread, you believe that Mod5 is the 1st mod where there is balance between casters and melee...


No I said starting to see balance between the 2, and then arguably it is only once the casters (or clerics) are capped.

and those are not even close to what I have suggested for fighters, rangers or pallies.

Drekisen
12-11-2007, 07:00 AM
It sounds to me almost as if u want to rub out the barbarians and overpower the fighters. Fighters get way more feats and they can have an outrageous AC. A barbarian (I am talking two handed here) gets so much aggro and a lot lower of an armor class, they should be able to do a lot of damage, they have more of a chance of taking hits.

I see no imbalance here, if you want the DPS of a barbarian...make and play one.

And as for Paladins....well they have a lot also a fighter and barbarian do not have.

If you want to take all the best perks of a certain class and make them available to yours....what is the point in having different classes then in the first place.

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:05 AM
No I said starting to see balance between the 2, and then arguably it is only once the casters (or clerics) are capped.

and those are not even close to what I have suggested for fighters, rangers or pallies.

Starting to see balance? Really? Please elaborate.

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:10 AM
It sounds to me almost as if u want to rub out the barbarians and overpower the fighters.

Not at all, noone is sayign that at all.


Fighters get way more feats and they can have an outrageous AC. A barbarian (I am talking two handed here) gets so much aggro and a lot lower of an armor class, they should be able to do a lot of damage, they have more of a chance of taking hits.

AC has been quasi irrelevant since mod4. The barbarian grabs so much aggro because he hits MUCH harder, of course he should be able to do more damage noone is arguing that. But again if you devalue AC to the point that Mod4 did and you then significantly boost Barbarian's damage output you've dramatically altered the playing field. Why make a fighter at all?
Where do those extra feats come in handy?

KoolHand
12-11-2007, 07:16 AM
The "experts" want to have all the feats,ac,saves,tactics and still do AS MUCH damgage as a barbarian. I guess my wisdom is lacking here (I do play a barbarain you know). Let us see here. part of the discussion says "since ac is useless" My gimped pally/cleric 11/3 can get self buffed to +28 I think w/ +5 weapon he sports a 47 unbuff'd ac d/r 5 (dragon armor) My triple ragin barbarian has a 31 ac and has 32 to hit (pwr att on). My gimp hits my barb on a 3 or better. my barb hits my gimp on a 15 or better. (these are 1st swing numbers, to hits might be off 1-2 toons not in front of me atm). the biggest thing we are talking about here is a fighter has the ability to go a number of ways. 2 handed, 2 weapon, sword and board, tank, intim-tank, tact fighter. A barbarian has 2 choices.. dps w/ ton of HPS of dps w/ little less hps. One invest extra toughness feats and the other on extra 2 handed fighting feats. Head 2 head there is no comparison. FIGHTERS= balance.. BARBARIANS = DPS

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:19 AM
Starting to see balance? Really? Please elaborate.

do you even really care?

KoolHand
12-11-2007, 07:20 AM
please.. until you run around getting smacked on everything except a 1 don't talk about ac being dead. People who put a LITTLE focus into their build for ac do just fine. The ONLY difference is they do GET hit now, where in the past pre mod 4 they didn't.. We are big boys now.. lvl 14. the monsters we re fighting are grown up too. They should have better then a 25 to hit, hell some are even big strong giants swinging a whole tree at us, they are strong...

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:21 AM
do you even really care?

Clearly I do and you don't, read up on the Codog thread.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:22 AM
Clearly I do and you don't, read up on the Codog thread.

funny i have been there quite a bit.

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:24 AM
funny i have been there quite a bit.

Oh well then I suggest you re-read it from the beginning, or at least the dev post where the bab was confirmed to being planend at a +15 bonus for 5th swing...

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:28 AM
Oh well then I suggest you re-read it from the beginning, or at least the dev post where the bab was confirmed to being planend at a +15 bonus for 5th swing...

I knew this (for months), it is still a broken mechanic.... like almost all melee combat in DDO is.

gpk
12-11-2007, 07:29 AM
I knew this (for months), it is still a broken mechanic.... like almost all melee combat in DDO is.

Well we're still waiting to hear your deep thought on the subject, cause of problem , possible short term-long term solutions.

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 07:31 AM
It isnt, I must have missed something because I could have sworn I seen it in DDO, and it is an (optional) function of rage in DDO.

When it comes down to it in DDO it is really simple.....

Fighters get fighter feats...... (and any enhancements based off of this)

Barbarians get rage (and any enhancements based off of this)

If there is an imbalance, then maybe fighters need to ask for Turbine to look at their enhancements instead of asking for barbarians to be nerfed.

That being said, I would be very careful as a fighter asking for too in depth of a look, because fighters are pretty strong as is.
Actually they do need to look at the enhancements & feats, as I stated earlier (or was it on the other thread, I am getting confused watching 2 similar arguments going at once) that maybe they should look at removing the immunity to stun & trip? Arguably the mobs that DPS is most important on are the named mobs as most other mobs go down fast enough that there really isn't a huge difference. This would allow Fighters the ability to defeat monsters using their classes strength (feats) while the Barbs would get to use their classes strength (DPS).

Personally I don't have a personal interest in this debate except as it applies to more parity in game between more classes = more enjoyment for a larger percentage of the players. I play mainly Rogues and Paladins who have their own issues.....

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:41 AM
Well we're still waiting to hear your deep thought on the subject, cause of problem , possible short term-long term solutions.

there is no short term fix, that is how we got to where we are today.

The issues revolving aorund character development and combat need some VISION.

KoolHand
12-11-2007, 07:42 AM
you say you play pallys. remember the ole days when you could RAPID smite the boss. Remember the crying about the change to smite w/ cooldown timer ? All of Gren's holy smite khopesh builds were screaming unfair. A pallys smite is still the SINGLE nasty hit in the game by a melee character.

Drekisen
12-11-2007, 07:45 AM
AC has been quasi irrelevant since mod4. The barbarian grabs so much aggro because he hits MUCH harder, of course he should be able to do more damage noone is arguing that. But again if you devalue AC to the point that Mod4 did and you then significantly boost Barbarian's damage output you've dramatically altered the playing field. Why make a fighter at all?
Where do those extra feats come in handy?


Irrelevant? I must be totally missing something here. When I am comparing armor classes I am talking about going up against things that are pretty much just melee. How is AC irrelevant?

This may be a poor example, but I finally really started paying attention to my clerics AC at a certain point, namely a bit after I started doing GH, and I noticed a huge increase in my damage reduction. I fail to see how AC is irrelevant unless you are going against casters and such, but I mean that made AC irrelevant when u were doing WW on elite the first few times and were trying to figure out how to work around them. I mean everyones AC is irrelevant when it comes to magic for the most part, I don't even see where that comes in place here. Most barbarians are using two handed weapons, ok that is 9 AC extra if your a fighter using a tower shield, 7 if just a large shield, plus a fighter can take CE and lose five to hit but gain it in AC, that is anywhere from 12-14 extra ac just right there. I doubt many Barbarians are going to give up 10 to hit, five for power attack and five for CE to even get within 7-9 of what a fighter has in AC. How is 12-14 AC even quasi irrelevant? Again, don't include magic, both fighters and barbarians are vulnerable to that.

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 07:46 AM
you say you play pallys. remember the ole days when you could RAPID smite the boss. Remember the crying about the change to smite w/ cooldown timer ? All of Gren's holy smite khopesh builds were screaming unfair. A pallys smite is still the SINGLE nasty hit in the game by a melee character.Sure is when the mob doesn't move slightly and then *poof* no more smite effectivly for that fight. Are you actually trying to imply that a pure Pally is powerfull in melee???? Haven't seen that around in awhile, and guess what? We got nerfed, and nerfed & nerfed yet again:) Wish I could rapid smite again so maybe a few of them would land...... Once again I am not asking for a nerf to Barbs, I've been nerfed several times it sucks, but I would like to see some balancing & parity between melee classes, guess you don't huh?

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 07:50 AM
Fighters get fighter feats...... (and any enhancements based off of this)

And what, precisely, would those enhancements be?

I'm seeing Fighter Mobility, Fighter Toughness and three Fighter Strategy Enhancements. For a grand total of five feat enhancing enhancements.

Meanwhile Barbarians have Barbarian Power Attack, Barbarian Toughness, Barbarian Willpower, Barbarian Extend Rage, Barbarian Extra Rage, Barbarian Hardy Rage, Barbarian Power Rage, and Barbarian Critical Rage. For a grand total of two feat enhancing enhancements and five rage enhancing enhancements.

But it's not even that simple that you can just look at the numbers. The fighter has one enhancement that's useful to everyone, three enhancements that are highly specialized and one enhancement that's just **** (because the feat it's based on is ****).

Meanwhile the barbarian has that same useful enhancement that the fighters have, another great enhancement based on a feat; a feat enhancement that is not available to fighters. Then on top of that, barbarians get enhancements that pretty much make it possible for them to be always raged and thus make it so their other enhancements which are theoretically balanced to be situational are always on. This means they've got enhancements that give them +4 strength, +5 constitution, +3 to will saves and a 2 point larger critical threat range all the time.

Please show me how the fighters enhancements even come close to competing with that.

Cowdenicus
12-11-2007, 07:51 AM
And what, precisely, would those enhancements be?

I'm seeing Fighter Mobility, Fighter Toughness and three Fighter Strategy Enhancements. For a grand total of five feat enhancing enhancements.

Meanwhile Barbarians have Barbarian Power Attack, Barbarian Toughness, Barbarian Willpower, Barbarian Extend Rage, Barbarian Extra Rage, Barbarian Hardy Rage, Barbarian Power Rage, and Barbarian Critical Rage. For a grand total of two feat enhancing enhancements and five rage enhancing enhancements.

But it's not even that simple that you can just look at the numbers. The fighter has one enhancement that's useful to everyone, three enhancements that are highly specialized and one enhancement that's just **** (because the feat it's based on is ****).

Meanwhile the barbarian has that same useful enhancement that the fighters have, another great enhancement for a feat that fighters don't even get if they want. Then on top of that, barbarians get enhancements that pretty much make it possible for them to be always raged and thus make it so their other enhancements which are theoretically balanced to be situational are always on. This means they've got enhancements that give them +4 strength, +5 constitution, +3 to will saves and a 2 point larger critical threat range all the time.

Please show me how the fighters enhancements even come close to competing with that.

They do not, and that my friend IS the issue.

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 07:52 AM
They do not, and that my friend IS the issue.QFT.....

Drekisen
12-11-2007, 07:57 AM
I'm seeing Fighter Mobility, Fighter Toughness and three Fighter Strategy Enhancements. For a grand total of five feat enhancing enhancements.

Meanwhile Barbarians have Barbarian Power Attack, Barbarian Toughness, Barbarian Willpower, Barbarian Extend Rage, Barbarian Extra Rage, Barbarian Hardy Rage, Barbarian Power Rage, and Barbarian Critical Rage. For a grand total of two feat enhancing enhancements and five rage enhancing enhancements.


Barbarians rage, fighters do not.

Multi-class, make a barbarian, or be happy with ur eight extra feats.

My god, do you take two seconds to sit back and realize while everyone else in the game except for wizzies are getting five feats, a fighter is getting thirteen. You've got to be joking right, because if ur not and get more fighter enhancements I want at least three more feats for my barbarian by level fourteen.

Geesh! Talk about imbalance!

gpk
12-11-2007, 08:00 AM
Barbarians rage, fighters do not.

Multi-class, make a barbarian, or be happy with ur eight extra feats.

My god, do you take two seconds to sit back and realize while everyone else in the game except for wizzies are getting five feats, a fighter is getting thirteen. You've got to be joking right, because if ur not and get more fighter enhancements I want at least three more feats for my barbarian by level fourteen.

Geesh! Talk about imbalance!

I'll ask again:
List all those wonderful feats and benefits that make a fighter an overall viable alternative to a barbarian.

Drekisen
12-11-2007, 08:02 AM
I'll ask again:
List all those wonderful feats and benefits that make a fighter an overall viable alternative to a barbarian.

I'm not going to!!!!

A fighter is not a viable alternative for a barbarian nor the other way around, that's what makes each one of them special. Are you sure you didn't want to name this thread "BARBARIAN GENOCIDE:what's the hold up?"

Hvymetal
12-11-2007, 08:04 AM
I'm not going to!!!!

A fighter is not a viable alternative for a barbarian nor the other way around, that's what makes each one of them special. Are you sure you didn't want to name this thread "BARBARIAN GENOCIDE:what's the hold up?"
Basically that just killed your whole argument that Fighter getting extra Feats is what balances them.....