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Quarion
12-03-2007, 10:34 AM
Weekly Development Activities

In QA
These items are currently in testing for release in Module 6.

General

The Level Cap has increased to 16!
Player characters that have been rendered unconscious but have stabilized will very slowly regenerate health until they wake up at 1 hit point. Warforged auto-stabilize and repair at a rate of 1 hit point every 2 minutes while inert, the other races regenerate at a rate of 1 hit point every minute while unconscious but stable.
You can now use the command “/resloc” to find out where you will resurrect when you die.
Favored Enemy: Orc can now be taken during character generation by rangers.
Fixed an issue where other player's movement may appear to stutter
You will now be notified when a player picks up your soulstone with a message and alert: "Your soulstone has been picked up by <name>."
Torel the Wizard can no longer sit and spin while using rest shrines.
An adjustment has been made to ranged combat to prevent players from missing the target when it is moving in certain ways.
When struck by a critical, the visual effects will only play once a second instead of each time, to help with the frame rate.
Traps are nastier on Hard and Elite, and more forgiving on Solo difficulty. Detection and disable difficulties are unchanged.
We have added support for the Logitech G15 Keyboard LCD displays.
The Mail UI now has two separate lists of mail. Confirmed mail - Mail sent by the game (ie auction mail), alt characters, current friends, current guildmates, and admins. Unconfirmed mail - Mail from players who are not currently on your friends list or in your guild. There is aslo a "Delete All" button which allows you to delete all unconfirmed mail.
You can no longer send mail to character who have you squelched.
NEW - Rest Shrines on landscape, solo, and normal difficulties are now reusable. Landscape and Normal difficulty rest shrines reset after fifteen minutes, Solo difficulty rest shrines reset after five minutes. UI Improvements
Bringing up the enhancement panel will now remove players from mouse-look mode.
Examination tooltips now appear when hovering over the text of an item in a "choose your rewards" window and chests.
Guild login and logout messages will now show up in the chat window. You can turn these messages off via a new option under the UI tab in the Options UI.
On the Create Party Panel:
A button has been added allowing the player to clear the selected quest.
If a player has made changes to their party criteria and closes the panel, they will be asked if they wish to apply the changes before the menu is closed.
The "Update my party" button will no longer be ghosted initially. Clicking this button will auto-select the "Advertise my party" check box.
When clicking in the 3D world after typing in the chat window, the game will now recognize your change in focus, while also preserving the text you typed.
Bringing up the enhancement panel will now remove players from mouse-look mode.
Critical spell hits now show up larger in the floaty text.
New party commands:
/party invite <name>
/party dismiss <name>
/party promote <name>
/party leave
/party disband
/party raid
/party normalShopping

Added a "Sell Gems" button to the sell window of vendors which buy gems. Hitting this button will sell all unsecured gems in your inventory as well as all gems contained in all of your gem bags.
NEW - Collectable and gem bags will now appear in the Miscellaneous category of the auction house. Spells

New Spells
Polar Ray
Evocation [Cold]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Deals 1d6 per caster level (max 25d6) cold damage to an enemy with a ray of freezing ice and air.
Sunburst
Evocation [Light]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
A globe of searing radiance explodes silently to blast targets for 6d6 of light damage in addition to permanently blinding them. Oozes and Undead take 1d6 per caster level damage. A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half and negates the blindness. Light fearing undead may be instantly destroyed by this spell
Charm Monster, Mass
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Casts Charm Monster on multiple targets. Charmed monsters will fight as trusted allies but get additional saves every 3d6+12 seconds. A successful Will save negates this effect.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 8
Casts Cure Critical Wounds on multiple targets. Positive energy is channeled to heal critical wounds of allies or damage undead for 4d8 +1 per caster level (max +20). Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.
Firestorm
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Clr 8
A storm causes an area to become shot through with sheets of roaring flame, causing 1d6 per caster level fire damage to targets in its area. (Max 20d6)
Horrid Wilting
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Deals 1d6 per caster level (max 20d6) damage to living targets by evaporating moisture from their bodies. Deals 1d8 per caster level (max 20d8) damage to water subtype outsiders and plants.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Level: Clr 8
Casts Inflict Critical Wounds on multiple targets at range inflicting 4d8 +1 per caster level (max +20) damage or healing undead a like amount. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half.
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
At your touch, enemies feel an irresistible urge to dance and begin doing so, complete with foot shuffling and tapping. The spell makes it impossible for the enemy to do anything other than caper and prance in place.
Shout, Greater
Evocation [Sonic]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Emits an ear-splitting yell that deafens and deals 10d6 sonic damage and stuns targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the stun.
Summon Monster VIII
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Summons a bezekira to fight for you for a brief time. Casting this spell locks out casting any other Summon Monster spell for 8 minutes.
Trap the Soul
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Forces a creature's life force and its material body into a gem on a failed Will save. Although this essentially 'kills' the target, it is not a death effect and functions on creatures such as undead (but not most constructs). This spell requires a khyber dragonshard as a special material component, and can affect creatures of up to 30 hit dice.

(Note: The quality of the gem required varies on the hit dice of the targeted creature. Three versions of this spell exist using a spell selector, appropriate for creatures of up to 10 HD, 20 HD, and 30 HD.)
Seek Eternal Rest
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 2, Pal 1
Grants a +4 Sacred bonus to level for the purposes of turning undead.
Bards gain access to the following existing spells:
Cat's Grace, Mass; Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass; Eagle's Splendor, Mass; Fox's Cunning, Mass; Heroes' Feast; and Summon Monster VI
Power Word: Blind
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
One creature with 600 or fewer current hit points is blinded.

150 or fewer HP: Blinded permanently
151 to 300 HP: Blinded for minutes
301 to 600 HP: Blinded for rounds
Power Word: Stun
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
One creature with 450 or fewer current hit points is stunned.
150 or fewer HP: Stunned for a long duration
151 to 300 HP: Stunned for a moderate duration
301 to 450 HP: Stunned for a short duration
Merfolk's Blessing
Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Grants one ally per caster level a +10 enhancement bonus to Swim, plus one per two caster levels.
Ram's Might
Transmutation
Level: Rgr 1
Enlarges the hands of the caster, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.
Master's Touch
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Range: Personal
The caster gains proficiency with all simple and martial weapons for one minute per caster level. General Spell Changes
A Paladin's Aura of Courage will no longer cause various other spell effects to repeat over and over. The Aura of Courage bonus has also been changed to a Sacred Bonus to Will Saves vs. Fear, and as such, will stack with Morale effects.
Acid Rain now uses a normal "attack spell" animation instead of the one associated with summons and lingering clouds.
Touch of Idiocy no longer permits Heighten, as it has no save.
Stone to Flesh can no longer be cast on "self", since statues are rarely capable of casting spells.
Cure <various> Wounds spells, including the Mass Cures, can no longer be Heightened as Clerics can already freely cast the higher level versions of those spells and are the ones most likely to use them as offensive spells against Undead. Note that the Heal spell is unaffected by this change as there are more circumstances under which you may wish to Heighten the spell.
Freedom of Movement will now protect against the Crippling weapon effect. This change will include some monsters with wards that are similar to Freedom of Movement.
Self targeting spells should no longer ever be "blocked".
The Holy Sword spell now creates Holy Burst weapons rather than Holy weapons.
NEW - Shocking Grasp can no longer be Heightened, as it has no save. Skills, Feats, & Abilities

New Skills

New Feats
Force of Personality
Prerequisite: Cha 13
Benefit: Picks the highest modifier between your charisma and your wisdom
modifier for your will saves.
Insightful Reflexes
Prerequisite: Int 13
Benefit: Picks the highest modifier between your intelligence and your
dexterity modifier for your reflex saves. General Feat Changes:

NEW - Improved precise shot is now a toggle feat and can be performed with untargetted shots. New Abilities

Barbarians now possess a new ability in the feats section of their character sheet. "Dismiss Rage" can be used at any time to prematurely end their barbarian rage. Note that you will still be subject to fatigue from your rage, and it functions only on the barbarian class ability - you cannot dismiss any other rage like effects.
New Rogue Special Abilities:
Skill Mastery: A rogue with this ability gains +1 to all skills. This ability may be taken multiple times.
Defensive Roll: Grants the rogue a chance to cheat death when critically injured. When below 20% health, a rogue with Defensive Roll has a chance equal to their total Reflex Save Modifier of taking half damage from melee or ranged weapon attacks, and negating any special effects associated with the attack as if the rogue were blocking. Defensive Roll is subject to the same armor and encumbrance restrictions as the Evasion class skill.
Slippery Mind: Grants the rogue a second chance to avoid harmful enchantments. Upon failure of a Will Save vs. Enchantments, the rogue immediately receives a second attempt at the saving throw.
Rogues now can choose which special ability (Improved Evasion, Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind, or Skill Mastery) they desire when they reach levels 10, 13, or 16 rather than having one automatically assigned to them. In addition, Rogues can now swap these special abilities for others as if they were feats.General Skills, Feats & Abilities changes

Crippling strike now occurs with ranged sneak attacks using bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons.
The intimidate skill has always factored in the size of your target. You get a bonus when attempting to intimidate creatures that are smaller than you and get a penalty against creatures that are larger than you. The description for this skill now explains this.
Greater two weapon fighting now enables an extra left hand attack hook while standing, making it more consistent with mobile attacks.Enhancements

General Enhancement Changes

Many enhancement descriptions have been clarified to reduce confusion about their benefits.
The Bard enhancement "Music of the Dead" is now trainable at level 6 instead of level 7.
The Rogue: Way of the Assassin active abilities now have an increased chance of applying their poison effects on sneak attacks. (33% chance per hit, rather than 25%)Items

For all normal chests, players who are not in the dungeon at the time the chest is opened with not get loot from the chest and will not be able to have loot re-assigned to them. For all raid chests, players who are not in the dungeon at the time the raid boss is killed will not have loot generated for them and cannot have loot re-assigned to them.
An issue with thrown weapons not dealing appropriate damage and not having appropriate to hit rolls has been fixed.
Bashing damage from the shield Ward of Undeath is now flagged as Good.

Blessed Cold Iron Khopeshes, Blessed Cold Iron Mauls and Blessed Cold Iron Heavy Picks will now always be sold at the Divine Reagent vendor in Feather Fall's Apothecary. House Jorasco.
A problem with UMD devices becoming unequipped when logging in has been fixed.

When an item is unequipped while a character is offline, (because a spell wore off, for example.) the item will no longer appear as if it is still equipped.
Corrected issues with Everbright effect and weapons made of special materials (adamantine, mithril etc.). These weapons should all now have full time protection from item wear caused by rust and acid.
Critical hit effects on weapons were preventing in certain rare circumstances sneak attack damage from applying. This has been fixed.
Darkweave Armor and Darkleaf Breastplates can now be found in treasure chests throughout Xendrik.
Various barkskin potions have been added to the random potion treasure drops.
Rapid reload now affects repeating crossbows.
Great Crossbows now deal 2d8 damage, with a 18-20/x2 critical threat range. This should be retroactive to all existing Great Crossbows.
Reducing a character's Charisma will now only reduce that character's Turn Undead Attempts if the current number of attempts is greater than the new maximum number of attempts.NPC's

Zawabi now checks to see if he can give you the demon queen raid quest before taking your items.
NEW - A banker has been added to Zawabi's Refuge. Monsters

A troglodyte in Freshen the Air had not been scaling correctly with the difficulty level. This has been fixed.
Beholders will no longer emit any beams while petrified.
Charmed and summoned monsters now make noise detectable by other monsters as if they were players.
Creatures will now only display "Zzz's" if they are magically compelled to sleep.
Elemental arrows fired by monsters are now less flashy, but should no longer bog your client down when encountered in large numbers.
The hill giant seers in Madstone Crater now have an immunity to charm affects because in certain circumstances being charmed could break their scripting. Now, they can't be charmed and will always pay attention to when the enchanter controlling them dies and will then become allies.
Fixed a case where some of Whisperdoom’s Daughters would sometimes not spawn, thereby preventing progress.
Further reduced the rate at which incorporeal enemies phase on hit to about a third of the rate it was at before.
Monsters now have a better understanding of the world around them know what to do around doors and some area of effect spells.
NEW - Monsters will no longer fight over each other when they're all trying to get to the same place at the same time.
NEW - Made various improvements to patrolling creatures. Quests

Caverns of Korromar
The "Source of Evil" will now be found when entering the Beholder's room, instead of when approaching him.
Euphonia's Challenge
The Wizard's Stones can no longer be deleted.
Vault of Night
Each player is now allowed 1 one the gifts from the Laughing Knives
Gianthold: Cabal for One
A crafty Hobgoblin trap is now a bit easier to find. This does not mean it’s any easier to disable. Note also that on higher difficulty levels, it may still be incredibly difficult to spot.
Hazadills Shipping Warehouse:
Fixed an unclimbable ladder.
Prison of the Mind
Improved the pathing of the Arcane Oozes in this quest.
Abandoned Keep
The quest will no longer care if Coyle enters the room before you do. Other Changes:

Multi-class paladins and barbarians will now always be able to respec their feats without crashing their client.
Using the "Sell Gems" button will now properly report your earnings instead of stating that you didn't sell anything.
Fixed issues with greater teleport.
Fixed a series of stuck spots in the Flesh Maker quest that players were being pushed into by some clever air elementals.
Fixed an issue that would cause two secret doors in low road to occasionally break.
In the Maze of Madness, a certain trap's control box has been rotated so that it faces forward.
The optionals relating to disabling the traps now work in Missing in Action.
Detaching currency from auction mail will now properly auto delete the mail.
Some items which were not marked as magical, such as a Minor Kinetic Lore Scepter, will now have the blue magical item background on it's icon.
Spells should now appear in proper alphabetical order in spell lists.
The touch of the Avatar of Jubilex will no longer make Warforged sick to their stom... err... uhh inner workings.
NEW - Sound Changes:
Sound transitions in the Necropolis will no longer be so harsh.
Landscape music will now continue playing after engaging in combat in the Necropolis Plains.
Silent areas in Tempest's Spine will now have music and ambience.
NEW - There are now fewer places in the public areas of Gianthold to get stuck
NEW - Fixed a trap in Foundation of Discord that wouldn't turn off if you disabled the control box.
NEW - Path to Madness will give favor again
NEW - The exit waypoints on several of the dungeons now correctly indicate they go the Necropolis and not the Orchard of the MacabreThe following items are being tested for release in an upcoming patch to be scheduled before Module 6:

Touch of Dolurrh is now removed when you are teleported to a puzzle.
Ice platforms last for a longer period of time, and are much less likely to appear underwater.
The rate at which raid loot from the Black Abbot drops on hard and elite has been increased to 20% on hard and 25% on elite.
The Touch of Dolurrh effect has been removed from Normal difficulty.
The Phasing chasm now adjusts based on difficulty. "Normal" mode should be significantly easier than "Elite". "Elite" is unchanged.
Mummies no longer spawn on Normal and Hard difficulties
A delay has been added to the Asteroids chamber to give players a few moments to prepare for the challenge
Multiple-use Rest and Resurrection Shrines have been added to the Black Abbot's platform upon completion of the raid.
As the Black Abbot’s power has grown, so have some of the items contained within his horde. Heroes that defeat the Black Abbot will find that certain loot items contained within his chest have been improved. Existing items are unaffected by this change.6.7

Greeka
12-03-2007, 10:37 AM
Not too much new offered in the update. However I do like the rest shrine thing for the wilderness. I have created a character that is working his way through all of the current wilderness areas and it would be helpful to have something like this in place especially while soloing through them.


G

Deragoth
12-03-2007, 10:40 AM
Great idea for the shrines. Also, thanks for the bank in the desert.

Kerr
12-03-2007, 10:40 AM
Weekly Development Activities

NEW - Rest Shrines on landscape, solo, and normal difficulties are now reusable. Landscape and Normal difficulty rest shrines reset after fifteen minutes, Solo difficulty rest shrines reset after five minutes.

I'm not sure I'm crazy about this. On Solo, sure, landscape ones, okay, but in Normal difficulty quests? It practically eliminates the need for mana management and makes every quest soloable by a single caster.

Rindalathar
12-03-2007, 10:42 AM
I'm not sure I'm crazy about this. On Solo, sure, landscape ones, okay, but in Normal difficulty quests? It practically eliminates the need for mana management and makes every quest soloable by a single caster.


I think I have to agree with Kerr here. I realize you'd have to wait for reset, but the need to use or even learn spell point management is out the door. What precident does this set, especially for new players?

GrayOldDruid
12-03-2007, 10:43 AM
# NEW - Rest Shrines on landscape, solo, and normal difficulties are now reusable. Landscape and Normal difficulty rest shrines reset after fifteen minutes, Solo difficulty rest shrines reset after five minutes.

Woohoo!! Soloing just got a little more friendly. Although I doubt that I can pull that dang lever AND run through the gate in the Second part of Delera's quests... Can't solo it Simply because of ONE lever....

as for the Normal difficulty level... when are you going to spend 15 min on a Normal Difficulty?? Maybe Soloing it... MAYBE. If you are not managing mana, then you're not going to last 15 min of casting. Then you have the time-sink of running all the way back to a shrine. I don't see a real problem with this, real benefit, but no real problem.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 10:44 AM
I'm not sure I'm crazy about this. On Solo, sure, landscape ones, okay, but in Normal difficulty quests? It practically eliminates the need for mana management and makes every quest soloable by a single caster.

its not like any quest is difficult to get back to in 5 Minutes. Maybe something like Chains of Flame..... But thats about it...... And how many quests do you actually do on Normal anymore? This is great for casual gamers who are not uber equipted. The only time I run stuff on normal anymore is to get raid ready.. and tose, I usually dont even use all the shrines availabale....


As for the WDA.. Meh.... COuple nice improvements, but nothing exciting yet.... Turbine, You might want to actually try to generate some excitement for mod 6 pretty soon.... You seem to enjoy teasing us on the festival coins... Just think what you could do with this?!?!?!?!

Laith
12-03-2007, 10:44 AM
I'm not sure I'm crazy about this. On Solo, sure, landscape ones, okay, but in Normal difficulty quests? It practically eliminates the need for mana management and makes every quest soloable by a single caster.
not to be contrary, but aren't they already? :)

edit: suppose i do agree though. love it for solo and landscape zones, not so keen on normal difficulty having infinite shrineage

akla_thornfist
12-03-2007, 10:45 AM
I'm not sure I'm crazy about this. On Solo, sure, landscape ones, okay, but in Normal difficulty quests? It practically eliminates the need for mana management and makes every quest soloable by a single caster.

im with you on this, bad idea wont have to manage sp on normal and they wont have to lose xp for recalling to get mana

BereanMalachi
12-03-2007, 10:47 AM
What about the new dungeons? what about the new encounters? these are basically fixes that should come witht he monday down times , arent they? I dont know that I am that impressed Turbine, sorry!

CrazySamaritan
12-03-2007, 10:48 AM
What with recalling for mana, and buying Elixers, it wasn't already possible?

Qzipoun
12-03-2007, 10:51 AM
What about the new dungeons? what about the new encounters? these are basically fixes that should come witht he monday down times , arent they? I dont know that I am that impressed Turbine, sorry!

Unfortunately I'm not surprised :( We wait for 2 weeks and get very little that could easily be put in a Monday update...

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 10:51 AM
Improved Precise Shot toggle and usable untargeted: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Rest shrines reset on solo and in landscapes: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Various minor fixes: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Rest shrines reset on normal: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 10:52 AM
What with recalling for mana, and buying Elixers, it wasn't already possible?

Yes but then either you're giving up a) money or b) experience.

Laith
12-03-2007, 10:52 AM
What with recalling for mana, and buying Elixers, it wasn't already possible?
at a cost.

unlimited shrines in a normal quest though? My main in a cleric. If this gets implemented, i might be running with a stopwatch sitting on my desk. ;)

Qzipoun
12-03-2007, 10:54 AM
Yes but then either you're giving up a) money or b) experience.

But now you're giving up c) time.

There's no way I'm waiting 15 minutes for a shrine to reset unless it's a REALLY long quest (and I can't think of many).

15 minutes is huge compared to the quest length, by the time you use a shrine and let it reset you're probably either done or have reached the next shrine.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 10:55 AM
I love the change to the shrines. This will benefit clerics and casters who solo and do not have the ability to spam their best attacks (like melee) infinitly inside of a quest.

Plus it is new people friendly. This change is outstanding.

Dariun
12-03-2007, 10:56 AM
But now you're giving up c) time.

There's no way I'm waiting 15 minutes for a shrine to reset unless it's a REALLY long quest (and I can't think of many).

15 minutes is huge compared to the quest length, by the time you use a shrine and let it reset you're probably either done or have reached the next shrine.

Yeah, from an XP/hour perspective waiting for a shrine to reset could well be worse than recalling and taking the 20% penalty.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 10:57 AM
Improved Precise Shot toggle and usable untargeted: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Rest shrines reset on solo and in landscapes: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Various minor fixes: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Rest shrines reset on normal: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

if every quest in game (minus raids) had a solo option I could agree with MT's assessment, since they do not, I have to respectfully disagree.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 10:58 AM
Yeah, from an XP/hour perspective waiting for a shrine to reset could well be worse than recalling and taking the 20% penalty.

Yeah but my permadeath guild recalling for mana is against the rules.... waiting for a shrine though????

Kerr
12-03-2007, 10:58 AM
its not like any quest is difficult to get back to in 5 Minutes. Maybe something like Chains of Flame..... But thats about it...... And how many quests do you actually do on Normal anymore? This is great for casual gamers who are not uber equipted. The only time I run stuff on normal anymore is to get raid ready.. and tose, I usually dont even use all the shrines availabale....


The difference is that now, there is a penalty for leaving the quest and getting mana recovered at an inn and returning. With this change, a caster can just keep reusing the same shrine over and over again with no penalty. Casters should have mana management issues or they become one shot killing machines with nothing to stop them. At least they would be penalized in XP if they left to recover mana, but now they aren't.

Lithic
12-03-2007, 10:59 AM
Rest shrines reset on normal: http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

At first I was against it as well, but at least they put in a longish timer. I AM a little afraid of how zergtastic its going to train new casters though. Theres going to be a new crop of shrine repeaters that won't be able to adjust very well to the elite difficulties.

GrayOldDruid
12-03-2007, 11:03 AM
im with you on this, bad idea wont have to manage sp on normal and they wont have to lose xp for recalling to get mana

So, while your fighters sit and wait, not loosing xp or time or anything, you think it is all good and fine to have the Casters recall from a dungeon, loose XP, run back and babysit the Melees who are still getting full XP? AND benefiting from empowered heals and crowd control and repair..... ???

With a full party, who is going to spend 15 min on a Normal Difficulty quest - AFTER finding and using the shrine once already?? How often are you going to stay within reasonable range of a shrine for 15 min? AND you still have HARD and ELITE difficulties that Don't Reset the shrines.

You're all getting upset because they're making it easier for people to Solo ?? MOST quests don't have a Solo difficulty.

How about if they make it where the shrine reset does not occur if you have more than three people in the party?? OR give ALL quests a SOLO difficulty and drop the shrine reset on normal?

SteeleTrueheart
12-03-2007, 11:06 AM
The timer is long enough that this will be a non issue. There is no way a full party is going to spend so much time in a quest that the shrine is going to reset. This will mainly help soloers who are doing normal difficulty. ie. mainly newbs.

TKnor
12-03-2007, 11:09 AM
General Feat Changes:

NEW - Improved precise shot is now a toggle feat and can be performed with untargetted shots.As a ranger, I like this very much (and don't like it a little bit).

I don't suppose there's any chance (or consideration for the possibility) of implementing some of the other aspects of Improved Precise Shot, are there? Namely the negation of everything less than total concealment (blur); I hate fighting things with mobile concealment. But - I understand if it's necessary to not have this as a feature of Improved Precise Shot to increase the longevity of your precious mobs. :)

Edit: Oops, "Displacement" is considered total concealment. I guess that makes it more likely it could be implemented since it wouldn't be too overpowering - only negating the 20&#37; miss chance of blur, that is.

SteeleTrueheart
12-03-2007, 11:11 AM
At first I was against it as well, but at least they put in a longish timer. I AM a little afraid of how zergtastic its going to train new casters though. Theres going to be a new crop of shrine repeaters that won't be able to adjust very well to the elite difficulties.

Zergtastic? If it takes a caster 15mins to go through all their mana I would think that would be the complete opposite to zerging. In fact it may train casters to slow down on their mana if they know they have to wait 15 mins. I do wonder if some quests with multiple shrines will have some shrines disappear?

Pellegro
12-03-2007, 11:12 AM
The change to shrines is excellent, and IMO shows much wisdom.

Consider the forum-users favorite raid: Tempest Spine. Its got what, a bazillion shrines? Its impossible to run out of mana, yet players love it. Never have I heard anyoen complain about "too many shrines" in a quest.

Further, it increases the difference between normal and elite, something that this game SORELY needs. Normal should be so frickin' easy that its a joke, and should be very easily solo'd by anyone with good knowledge of the D&D rules. While those who frequent the forums generally know the minutiae of the rules, and what does what, most of the potential playerbase out there does not. They build, to put it bluntly, gimped toons. They should be able to enjoy the game with their gimped toons. They will over time learn how gimped they are, and they will naturally want to reroll and become as good as Johnny .... etc.

Cheers to the repeatable shrines on Normal. And a belated cheer to increasing the difficulty on elite for traps.

Now I put my critical hat on: The WDA was pretty sparse. :(

DasLurch
12-03-2007, 11:13 AM
So with the small amount of changes, does this mean the mod is closer than we think?

SneakThief
12-03-2007, 11:15 AM
The difference is that now, there is a penalty for leaving the quest and getting mana recovered at an inn and returning. With this change, a caster can just keep reusing the same shrine over and over again with no penalty. Casters should have mana management issues or they become one shot killing machines with nothing to stop them. At least they would be penalized in XP if they left to recover mana, but now they aren't.


Yes but then either you're giving up a) money or b) experience.

or C) time.


Yeah, from an XP/hour perspective waiting for a shrine to reset could well be worse than recalling and taking the 20% penalty.

I think that says it best. Sure, if you are solo, in a normal quest, you can sit around and wait for the shrine to reset, but its not the most efficient use of time to XP. In a group, in most quests long enough to take more than 25 mintues (10 minutes to blow all your mana the first time then shrine and wait 15), you are almost always to the next shrine before 15 minutes is up. I can think of a few places that might not be true, and of course there is always the really slow bad pug, but those are the exception.

And for all those people that were whining about the infinite destructive power of melee's, here ya go. :D Level 16, I think my tank will be relegated to pulling STR levers and beating up things that dont burn in Firewalls. :D ;)

Pellegro
12-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Can anyone explain to me what is the benefit of having IPS toggleable (sp?) ?

Thx.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 11:17 AM
So with the small amount of changes, does this mean the mod is closer than we think?

Nope, it means the major overhauls are not being put in the WDA yet until they are set in stone, hence why the ranger PrC type enhancements are not in yet, or ranged combat fixes are not in yet, and not a peep of the new content is in yet.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 11:18 AM
or C) time.



I think that says it best. Sure, if you are solo, in a normal quest, you can sit around and wait for the shrine to reset, but its not the most efficient use of time to XP. In a group, in most quests long enough to take more than 25 mintues (10 minutes to blow all your mana the first time then shrine and wait 15), you are almost always to the next shrine before 15 minutes is up. I can think of a few places that might not be true, and of course there is always the really slow bad pug, but those are the exception.

And for all those people that were whining about the infinite destructive power of melee's, here ya go. :D Level 16, I think my tank will be relegated to pulling STR levers and beating up things that dont burn in Firewalls. :D ;)

You forgot intimidate..... ;):D

seriously though I think part of the reason we are getting marathon length quests is to balance melee vs. caster (at least in higher read elite here content.)

Pellegro
12-03-2007, 11:18 AM
Hopefully being able to re-shrine is also a sign that the lvl 16 quests to come in Mod 6 are real buttkickers.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 11:20 AM
Hopefully being able to re-shrine is also a sign that the lvl 16 quests to come in Mod 6 are real buttkickers.

Oh I can hope.

I would love to see some real long drawn out quests..... (with lots of optionals and hence lots of optional chests and xp and such)

TKnor
12-03-2007, 11:20 AM
Can anyone explain to me what is the benefit of having IPS toggleable (sp?) ?

Thx.

From the perspective of aggro management, it makes it easier for the ranger to not create hate if he's not hitting 10 mobs in a line.

So it allows you to not instantly become a punching bag or to turn on your multishot and clear whole hallways at your discretion.

Laith
12-03-2007, 11:20 AM
Can anyone explain to me what is the benefit of having IPS toggleable (sp?) ?aggro management.

sometimes hitting everyone between you and the caster in back is less than optimal. currently, in some cases, having IPS is LESS optimal than just having PS. It is a bad model to have an "improved" feat be worse than the normal one, even if the situation only occurs occasionally ;)

SneakThief
12-03-2007, 11:24 AM
You forgot intimidate..... ;):D

seriously though I think part of the reason we are getting marathon length quests is to balance melee vs. caster (at least in higher read elite here content.)

Yes, I did ... Intimidate: need to gather them all up for the firewalls :D


Oh I can hope.

I would love to see some real long drawn out quests..... (with lots of optionals and hence lots of optional chests and xp and such)
As long as they are balanaced out with short ones. Sometimes its nice to get on an play for an hour, you know instead of 4.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 11:25 AM
Yes, I did ... Intimidate: need to gather them all up for the firewalls :D


As long as they are balanaced out with short ones. Sometimes its nice to get on an play for an hour, you know instead of 4.

You mean there are people out there that play less than 4 hours at a shot???? For real?

Lorien_the_First_One
12-03-2007, 11:25 AM
I think I have to agree with Kerr here. I realize you'd have to wait for reset, but the need to use or even learn spell point management is out the door. What precident does this set, especially for new players?

If you are taking more than 15 minutes between shrines on normal you need it to reset... and if they don't have this option you will be forced to recall anyway. I'm ok with this on normal.

I think its fantastic for the outdoor areas and solo!

Missing_Minds
12-03-2007, 11:29 AM
Plus it is new people friendly. This change is outstanding.

This is the reason why I'm not against the changes to normal. Before cow mentioned this I was against it. Now... nope. he's right. It does make it very new people friendly.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-03-2007, 11:29 AM
So with the small amount of changes, does this mean the mod is closer than we think?

It probably just means that the majority of programmer time is invested in the big stuff right now... ie - the new spells being done from scratch, the new dungeons, new traps, that kinda thing. Since that stuff will take a while to do, no updates until we get a bit closer and the stuff is almost done.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 11:32 AM
It probably just means that the majority of programmer time is invested in the big stuff right now... ie - the new spells being done from scratch, the new dungeons, new traps, that kinda thing. Since that stuff will take a while to do, no updates until we get a bit closer and the stuff is almost done.

I hope the developers put in some real traps in these Mod 6 quests. Also I would love to see some optionals (for NPC's for example) that used skills other than diplo, bluff and intimidate....

Why I can never use my heal skill on an NPC for an advantage in a dungeon is beyond me.....

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 11:34 AM
This is the reason why I'm not against the changes to normal. Before cow mentioned this I was against it. Now... nope. he's right. It does make it very new people friendly.

OMG I was metioned by Missing Minds, and not even in a bad way this time (like some others mention me). Wow, I need to revert back to my old style of posting.......

I think ever since I have changed from red background to that soothing blue color my posting has gotten better. (and more importantly nicer.)

Dirac
12-03-2007, 11:34 AM
I don't have any new analysis beyond what has already been said. I'll just add my voice to say I am hugely in favor of reusing shrines on Normal. This really helps those who solo or otherwise run with sub-optimal groups.

Laith
12-03-2007, 11:35 AM
Why I can never use my heal skill on an NPC for an advantage in a dungeon is beyond me.....i'm with ya.

btw, i don't really mind the shrine reset on normal anymore. guess you all have convinced at least one person.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 11:37 AM
The difference is that now, there is a penalty for leaving the quest and getting mana recovered at an inn and returning. With this change, a caster can just keep reusing the same shrine over and over again with no penalty. Casters should have mana management issues or they become one shot killing machines with nothing to stop them. At least they would be penalized in XP if they left to recover mana, but now they aren't.


That Might be a valid argument if there wasnt an Abundance of XP already availabale in this game. Losing 20% XP doesnt mean much in the big picture.

ArkoHighStar
12-03-2007, 11:45 AM
That Might be a valid argument if there wasnt an Abundance of XP already availabale in this game. Losing 20% XP doesnt mean much in the big picture.

not when you are capped but as we ae trying to get to lvl 16 cap , we shall see how much each quest gives and whether it might matter

dragonoffrost
12-03-2007, 11:49 AM
Exactly but my level 12 sorc won't be allowed to recall for mana by our level 14 capped guild clerics ;)

Then again my sorc has been brought up on charges of being un-sorc like in her mana usage (read, I can mana manage and may do it too much at times):D

I think the resets are nice but I am not one to solo much. I play DDO for the party (comraderie) aspects of it.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 11:49 AM
not when you are capped but as we ae trying to get to lvl 16 cap , we shall see how much each quest gives and whether it might matter

Your Kidding right? you do realize the XP reduction stops when your capped right? You do realize most of us have just ONE level to gain once the cap is raised right (We're 1 XP away from 15 for petes sake)

Level 16 will be achieved by most metagamers the night the mod is released. and they willbe capped within a week.... Even if the mod 6 stuff hands out 500xp a quest.

tekn0mage
12-03-2007, 11:59 AM
I love the change to the shrines. This will benefit clerics and casters who solo and do not have the ability to spam their best attacks (like melee) infinitly inside of a quest.

Plus it is new people friendly. This change is outstanding.

I can believe I'm saying this, but I 100% completely agree.

This is a phenomenal change, REALLY surprised me on this one. Keep that kind of thing coming!

The_Phenx
12-03-2007, 12:00 PM
Sigh tis tru about the xp....but thats ok then we get to get lvl 16 items and all the new stuff from raids etc... to keep us entertained till mod 7.

I say keep up the new content... give us the 12...try and minimize the downtime and server lag.. and 90&#37; of us will be a-ok.

And kudos on the shrine adjustments, especially in the wilderness areas where there just aren't many. Its just another dimension as to why hard and elite will actually be HARD and ELITE.

Oh I sill want my two weapon throwing feat...pretty pretty please. (I will beg if necessary)

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 12:11 PM
btw, i don't really mind the shrine reset on normal anymore. guess you all have convinced at least one person.

Yeah, I guess between the time argument and the nice-to-new-people argument, I've been convinced too.

ArkoHighStar
12-03-2007, 12:14 PM
Your Kidding right? you do realize the XP reduction stops when your capped right? You do realize most of us have just ONE level to gain once the cap is raised right (We're 1 XP away from 15 for petes sake)

Level 16 will be achieved by most metagamers the night the mod is released. and they willbe capped within a week.... Even if the mod 6 stuff hands out 500xp a quest.


Yes I have 5 capped chars currently I understand how it works. But not everyone is at cap or will be when mod 6 comes out. Not everyone is a powergamer. This change does not apply to powergamers as most of us do not do quests on normal except on the first night when nobody has it opened on elite yet.
This helps those slower groups not uber twinked with all the best gear who can't do POP in 1- 15 minutes on elite or do WF titan in 6-8 minutes. For those people having the option to not have to recall out if they run out of mana as they level up and learn the game, will do nothing but help. And as mod 5 has shown we will not see the explosion of xp per quest like we did in mod 4, where 5-6 pop runs could get you lvl 14.

Akhad_Durn
12-03-2007, 12:19 PM
General

NEW - Rest Shrines on landscape, solo, and normal difficulties are now reusable. Landscape and Normal difficulty rest shrines reset after fifteen minutes, Solo difficulty rest shrines reset after five minutes. [U][B]


I hardly ever post... but I just can't hold back on this one.

I'm wholly and totally against this being applied to normal difficulty. :( Solo sure, normal, no.

Shouldn't there be some sort of challenge/penalty somewhere? Put shrines outside the quests if need be, at least then there’s some sort of thought given to using it. The main challenge that I think that clerics and mages have is conserving mana for when it’s really needed, this change won't help promote that at all.

It will be said that if I don't want to use this option, I shouldn't reuse the shrine. Yes I can do this, but... I quest with PUGs most of the time, how do I keep the party moving if we *might* need more than half mana?


20 minutes into the quest...
Mage: "Oh wait a sec, I'm going to run back to the start and reuse that shrine..."
10 minutes later...
Cleric: "Give me a sec I'll be using that shrine at the start, it just reset for me."
5 minutes later...
Mage: "Wow! That mana sure went quick... I'm down to 1/3, better use that shrine again."
2 minutes later...
Fighter: "Hey, I'm down three levels, we should wait until I can rest a couple more times."
Yes, this is really overboard, but I can really see this happening to some extent. If there isn't anything other than time constraining the use of mana, and health why bother trying to conserve and plan ahead.

This seems to go against the whole premise that party shouldn't be waiting around for resources to replenish. Give everyone a ring of regeneration it'll be quicker, and at least everyone isn't going to be waiting for people to run back to the shrine.

This is also going to promote something I've been seeing a lot lately, under level groups doing quests they really have no place being in (lvl 6 parties in the VONs...). Most of the time I just laugh and think "good luck" :p for these groups. This could become the norm for these flagging type quests. Just take time and you can get through anything, one mana bar and creature at a time.

How about making a this a solo only option, and giving all the quests without a solo option the normal difficulty quest but with this applied?

No I didn't read all the other discussion before this... I wanted to get this out.

maddong
12-03-2007, 12:24 PM
Normal should be so frickin' easy that its a joke, and should be very easily solo'd by anyone with good knowledge of the D&D rules.

I'm not sure I agree with that. That is the solo setting (which maybe could be at higher level dungeons too). I wish the high level quests were a little harder on normal. The preraid littany is pretty easy on normal. It is a level 15 quest....

I think part of the problem is combining maximize and empower. This is the new easy button. It turns things like the original vampire and the cursed crypt vampire from challenging into toys. People really didn't used to do that but now it is more mana efficient. All the casters' damage tripled in the last mod. I don't know what to do, if you take away the ability to combine them (an epic feat) then people will cry nerf and everyone will just drop empower. I guess you could put in the level limits on them so at this point you can only empower cone of cold and you can't maximize it until the next mod (PNP enforcement). With the next mod then empower would be useful for disintegrate.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 12:26 PM
Yes I have 5 capped chars currently I understand how it works. But not everyone is at cap or will be when mod 6 comes out. Not everyone is a powergamer. This change does not apply to powergamers as most of us do not do quests on normal except on the first night when nobody has it opened on elite yet.
This helps those slower groups not uber twinked with all the best gear who can't do POP in 1- 15 minutes on elite or do WF titan in 6-8 minutes. For those people having the option to not have to recall out if they run out of mana as they level up and learn the game, will do nothing but help. And as mod 5 has shown we will not see the explosion of xp per quest like we did in mod 4, where 5-6 pop runs could get you lvl 14.

I'm sorry. I lost your argument somewhere.....

There already enough XP in this game to cap to 20..... XP Amounts in the Orchard are pretty darn good if you ask me... We got a bit spoiled in the Gianthold..... I ran Gwylans last night with Level capped characters in the party and still got almost 6k EXP.....

I digress though, the ABundanceof XP inthe game is not at debate here inthis thread.. It seems we agree that the Resetting shrines are good thing...

Laith
12-03-2007, 12:29 PM
Shouldn't there be some sort of challenge/penalty somewhere? the challenge will generally be referred to "entering on hard/elite", as it always has been.

there's an important fact to remember here: most quests are won or lost in the last encounter. When it comes to meeting this encounter, this change will mean very little, as you can rarely call a time out and rest in the middle.

It has already been mentioned, that after the first couple times most normal runs are speed runs anyhow. going back to a shrine you passed 15 minutes ago is hardly efficient. The biggest difference this change makes is for people who are already struggling in the quest on normal. Odds are, they're newbies.

We like newbies. We want them to have fun.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 12:30 PM
or if they decide to take this out, if a caster or a cleric has to recall out, the whole party can be penalized the xp, not just the person leaving to refill.

Kerr
12-03-2007, 12:30 PM
Why I can never use my heal skill on an NPC for an advantage in a dungeon is beyond me.....

I'm seriously disappointed on how little you CAN use skills in quests to influence or work with NPCs. Its to the point each quest is essentially 'see a NPC, kill the NPC' with no other level of interaction.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 12:32 PM
I'm not sure I agree with that. That is the solo setting (which maybe could be at higher level dungeons too). I wish the high level quests were a little harder on normal. The preraid littany is pretty easy on normal. It is a level 15 quest....

I think part of the problem is combining maximize and empower. This is the new easy button. It turns things like the original vampire and the cursed crypt vampire from challenging into toys. People really didn't used to do that but now it is more mana efficient. All the casters' damage tripled in the last mod. I don't know what to do, if you take away the ability to combine them (an epic feat) then people will cry nerf and everyone will just drop empower. I guess you could put in the level limits on them so at this point you can only empower disintegrate/blade barrier and you can't maximize them until the next mod (PNP enforcement). With the next mod then empower would be useful for delayed blast fireball.

Dunno where you came up with that, but thats not how metas work in PnP at all..... The closest Turbine could come toPnP would be to not allow 5th,6th,or 7th Level Spells to be Maximized. and 6th and 7th for Empower Spell.

WHich I would be definatly in Favor of.

Of course, with our Spell point system, Maximize should be +15 Spell points, Not +25 and Empower Spell would be +10 (MAximize raised the spel 3 levels, Empower 2)

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 12:34 PM
or if they decide to take this out, if a caster or a cleric has to recall out, the whole party can be penalized the xp, not just the person leaving to refill.
Can you say Greif?

maddong
12-03-2007, 12:35 PM
Dunno where you came up with that, but thats not how metas work in PnP at all..... The closest Turbine could come toPnP would be to not allow 5th,6th,or 7th Level Spells to be Maximized. and 6th and 7th for Empower Spell.

WHich I would be definatly in Favor of.

Of course, with our Spell point system, Maximize should be +15 Spell points, Not +25 and Empower Spell would be +10 (MAximize raised the spel 3 levels, Empower 2)

My bad. I'm starting to misremember my level mods given that I don't play PNP anymore and no longer do NWN coding.

maddong
12-03-2007, 12:44 PM
This is also going to promote something I've been seeing a lot lately, under level groups doing quests they really have no place being in (lvl 6 parties in the VONs...). Most of the time I just laugh and think "good luck" :p for these groups. This could become the norm for these flagging type quests. Just take time and you can get through anything, one mana bar and creature at a time.

I actually have the opposite view from this standpoint. I don't care if people spend a lot of time going thru higher level quests than they should be. It is more xp efficient to run easier stuff in 5-10 minutes anyway. There is plenty of xp in the game to level advance. Those are the kinds of things that would be fun and challenging for me. I've seen people do that and thought what a waste of time. But now it might be fun to take some level 6s into the VONs with the repeatable rest shrines. Before that just sounded tedious. Level 7s in VON5 would get quite a nice chunk of xp. :)

They really need to make the level 15 and 16 quests HARD on NORMAL in the next mod. Especially if we are going to have common level 14 loot and 15/16 items dropping. High level adventures should be scary.

pumagirl418
12-03-2007, 12:45 PM
When does this new mod come out? I've heard late December all the way until Feb. so far.

I'm on a ticker here, I plan on coming back for the new stuff... but after that well thats another thread right. lol.

p.s. boy do i miss tharashk, thelenis isn't bad, but tharashk was like cheers!

Akhad_Durn
12-03-2007, 12:52 PM
the challenge will generally be referred to "entering on hard/elite", as it always has been.

there's an important fact to remember here: most quests are won or lost in the last encounter. When it comes to meeting this encounter, this change will mean very little, as you can rarely call a time out and rest in the middle.

Yes, the end encounter is usually the real challenge, but the party will always have full mana on entering now. Even if it means waiting. This really seems to encourage people to run stuff way under level to me.



It has already been mentioned, that after the first couple times most normal runs are speed runs anyhow. going back to a shrine you passed 15 minutes ago is hardly efficient. The biggest difference this change makes is for people who are already struggling in the quest on normal. Odds are, they're newbies.

We like newbies. We want them to have fun.

I like the newbs too, I'll even play with them. :)

I just think that making normal even easier across the board is going to create new issues that haven't been thought of yet.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 12:52 PM
They really need to make the level 15 and 16 quests HARD on NORMAL in the next mod. Especially if we are going to have common level 14 loot and 15/16 items dropping. High level adventures should be scary.

I'm sure the quests will be difficult enough on Hard and elite settings..... Normal should not the new elite..... No matter what you bring to the table. You cannot make quests so difficult the average gamer cant play. What would be their reason tostay inthe game?

Talon_Moonshadow
12-03-2007, 12:58 PM
So, while your fighters sit and wait, not loosing xp or time or anything, you think it is all good and fine to have the Casters recall from a dungeon, loose XP, run back and babysit the Melees who are still getting full XP? AND benefiting from empowered heals and crowd control and repair..... ???

With a full party, who is going to spend 15 min on a Normal Difficulty quest - AFTER finding and using the shrine once already?? How often are you going to stay within reasonable range of a shrine for 15 min? AND you still have HARD and ELITE difficulties that Don't Reset the shrines.

You're all getting upset because they're making it easier for people to Solo ?? MOST quests don't have a Solo difficulty.

How about if they make it where the shrine reset does not occur if you have more than three people in the party?? OR give ALL quests a SOLO difficulty and drop the shrine reset on normal?

I don't know how many times my cleric (and even my wizard) have been asked to recall out for mana by zerging melees. So I think this is a great change.

And since I can't remember the last time I did a quest on normal if the group had a harder option available, I don't think this will be as big an issue as people are making it out to be.

Believe it or not it is not usually the casters that need to practice mana conservation.....it's the zering melees who usually cause the casters, especially the clerics, to need mana.
Also, I've planned my casters to be able to contribute in some way without mana.....my clerics have decent weapons and so do my arcanes. But I'm not even allowed to use them because as soon as I announce that I am OoM, some zerger is trying to persuade me to recall.

Granted there are already those arcanes that FOD there way through dungeons and expect DVs to support their play style.....another annoying thing for my Cleric who can actually turn undead and would like to enjoy Mod5 content my way instead of supporting the Sor kill count numbers......but again this change will help me alot.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-03-2007, 01:13 PM
This is also going to promote something I've been seeing a lot lately, under level groups doing quests they really have no place being in (lvl 6 parties in the VONs...). Most of the time I just laugh and think "good luck" :p for these groups. This could become the norm for these flagging type quests. Just take time and you can get through anything, one mana bar and creature at a time.

How about making a this a solo only option, and giving all the quests without a solo option the normal difficulty quest but with this applied?

No I didn't read all the other discussion before this... I wanted to get this out.

:)
Yeah, I've seen a lot of this too. I have a few toons in the 8-10 range that I've been playing a lot recently. it seems that a large number of the LFMs in my range are for Gianhold quests.....on elite at that!

Well, I refuse to join those since I see it as conter-productive to try to gain lots of XP by dying a lot.
Also I've been playing those toons because I've been bored with my capped toons lately....so no reason to rush their level advancement right now.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-03-2007, 01:18 PM
or if they decide to take this out, if a caster or a cleric has to recall out, the whole party can be penalized the xp, not just the person leaving to refill.

Hey! now there is a great idea! If one person recalls and comes back in, everyone should get an XP penalty! Would fix those guys who refuse to release after a party wipe too.

Laith
12-03-2007, 01:19 PM
Hey! now there is a great idea! If one person recalls and comes back in, everyone should get an XP penalty! Would fix those guys who refuse to release after a party wipe too.So, when your party DOES wipe, how much penalty is that exactly? -20&#37; per person?

oh, i suppose it's still the cleric's job to do all the walking ;)

akla_thornfist
12-03-2007, 01:23 PM
they change the shrines for normal now and next you will be able to use the shrines any time you want at any level, i can see it now bunch of lev 6 char in von 3 waiting 15 min to kill the last 3 mobs after they died and used the rest shrine.

maddong
12-03-2007, 01:24 PM
I'm sure the quests will be difficult enough on Hard and elite settings..... Normal should not the new elite..... No matter what you bring to the table. You cannot make quests so difficult the average gamer cant play. What would be their reason tostay inthe game?

A level 15 or 16 quest should be a significant quest, not something that can be completed in 5-15 min. High level play should be challenging, not just advancing to the next loot/new super powers. Sure, it shouldn't be as hard as the current abbot, but it should get more significant as you advance.

Laith
12-03-2007, 01:29 PM
they change the shrines for normal now and next you will be able to use the shrines any time you want at any level, i can see it now bunch of lev 6 char in von 3 waiting 15 min to kill the last 3 mobs after they died and used the rest shrine.
i'd personally LOVE to see a bunch of lvl6s kill the marut. Not that i don't believe it can be done... i just don't think it's a reasonable thing to worry about everyone suddenly being able to do.

Don't post responses or screenshots saying you did it. I want a video. Probably a bit off topic for this thread though.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 01:29 PM
A level 15 or 16 quest should be a significant quest, not something that can be completed in 5-15 min. High level play should be challenging, not just advancing to the next loot/new super powers. Sure, it shouldn't be as hard as the current abbot, but it should get more significant as you advance.
ANd it absolutely does..... How long did it take you to complete Madstone or Crucible the first time???

Just because I can do Crucible in under 20 minutes on Elite now doesnt mean it wasnt freakin difficult the first time I set foot in there on normal.... Was a 180+ Minute run if I remeber correctly.

Shade
12-03-2007, 01:34 PM
Weekly Development Activities

NEW - Shocking Grasp can no longer be Heightened, as it has no save.

Hmm was the save for this recently removed? Always had a save back when I used it, tho it was still pretty good even with a save.

If it wasn't recently changed to not have one.... this makes little sense.

Strumpoo
12-03-2007, 01:35 PM
im with you on this, bad idea wont have to manage sp on normal and they wont have to lose xp for recalling to get mana

Sort of like what a melee type does currently by carrying 200 healing pots with them?? :rolleyes:

That right I forgot how melee types have to "manage" their attacks.. Because their sword arm gets tired all the time and they have to rest...

Big deal, it is on Normal! Who in the heck runs Normal quests anymore? Ok, everyone does probably once, but just to get to the Hard and Elite settings. I don't think this is a gamebreaker.


Question for the devs:

With precise shot being a toggle, does this mean that you won't be able to have precise shot and PRECISON on at the same time? Because that would stink..

maddong
12-03-2007, 01:56 PM
ANd it absolutely does..... How long did it take you to complete Madstone or Crucible the first time???

Just because I can do Crucible in under 20 minutes on Elite now doesnt mean it wasnt freakin difficult the first time I set foot in there on normal.... Was a 180+ Minute run if I remeber correctly.

I'm only coming from the perspective that putting things in like Vol/Potp in their original form are stupid wastes of high level quests. If you are advancing to level 16 on level 16 quests it should be difficult and fun instead of rinse/repeat for uber loot. High level quests/loot should be an accomplishment. They can't assume that everyone just has +5 weapons on normal. Casters keep max/emp on at all times. You can get handmedown greater banes on the cheap. Since undead won't be involved you shouldn't be able to walk thru the new level 16 quest and just mass charm/fod your way thru it. Even the casual players have uber equipment (you really need a paralyzer? here i have a bunch sitting in the bank that i never use....). Unless they up the anti on normal as you advance things will be more and more of a cake walk.

When the cap was 10, doing level 9/10 (or even 8 for some groups) quests on normal was challenging (xorian/von, tempest, threnal, co6) for the casual gamer. Since then we have had a lot of equipment inflation and caster power inflation (which is not equipment dependent, only build dependent). And we have learned better techniques. Level 13-14 quests on normal are no longer challenging for the casual player. And level 11-12 sure as heck aren't.

When the cap was 10 they put in a level 9 quest and people struggled and party wiped and kept on trying on normal. The same was also said about a level 8 quest. Now they are easy.

The cap is 14. What is the level 12/13 quest they introduced that has given us problems? Nevermind, we were just moving on to elite.

What is a perfectly balanced and fun level 14 quest on normal to take your casual player friends thru? Inferno. Or the optional on Fleshmaker.

What is a frustrating gimmicky quest to take your casual player friends thru on normal? Ghosts.

What quest was way too easy but now qualifies as annoying? Vol. (Although this probably is because everyone does the pull tactic instead of just walking thru the quest as a party like you are supposed to).

Mercules
12-03-2007, 01:59 PM
But now you're giving up c) time.

There's no way I'm waiting 15 minutes for a shrine to reset unless it's a REALLY long quest (and I can't think of many).

15 minutes is huge compared to the quest length, by the time you use a shrine and let it reset you're probably either done or have reached the next shrine.

Except when a vital team member takes that mysterious AFK that takes 10 minutes. Then suddenly the ability to get back the SPs and use/day things that were wasted waiting for them becomes very nice. Rarely will a group need this ability, but it makes soloing casters possible.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 02:03 PM
Even pop took longer than 20 Minutes to complete the first time on normal. I think your confusing familiarity with the quest dynamics with ease.

Have you ever paid attention to the Mob comments in Pop? The quest was designed to be a loot run... Just like Beyond the Grave in Mod 3, and VOl in Mod5.

Whoopdi-doo THe devs have given us a few loot runs.... I appreciate that. ANd dont find it an issue at all.

You say Ghosts is a Difficult Gimmiky Quest? Even that can be a solid loot run once your familiar with it... I think the last Elite run I did was 7 Minutes to completion.

ThrasherGT
12-03-2007, 02:20 PM
In some of the responses I am reading here. It's almost as if we (forum users/posters) are sitting by the side of hole
just waiting for something to fall in that we can pounce on. I mean, really, why all the negativity here about something
that won't affect most people once their toons are past level 3-5?

Seriously, I am getting disgusted by the maturity (or rather lack thereof) Of some who post here. Soooooooooooooooo,
I am just going to say good day to you all. I am done with these forums. Have a nice brawl Guys and Gals, and cya in the
funny papers..................

rfachini
12-03-2007, 02:20 PM
Devs- please comment on the oversized crate bug if you think you can fix it for Mod 6.

Wizzly_Bear
12-03-2007, 02:30 PM
the reasons have already all been mentioned by others so ill just say that i love these changes, especially the shrines. very newbie friendly. we need more of them (newbies that is).

just to make sure someone says it....while in favor of the shrine changes for solo and normal, i am taking this opportunity to denounce any potential future possibility of shrines being re-usable on hard/elite.

GeneralDiomedes
12-03-2007, 02:37 PM
How about giving us the option of skipping Normal then?

Normal is now pretty much a joke.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 02:51 PM
not to be contrary, but aren't they already? :)

edit: suppose i do agree though. love it for solo and landscape zones, not so keen on normal difficulty having infinite shrineage

If you want to wait 15 minutes for the shrine to reset... more power to you.

Dirac
12-03-2007, 02:54 PM
I'm only coming from the perspective that putting things in like Vol/Potp in their original form are stupid wastes of high level quests. If you are advancing to level 16 on level 16 quests it should be difficult and fun instead of rinse/repeat for uber loot. High level quests/loot should be an accomplishment. They can't assume that everyone just has +5 weapons on normal. Casters keep max/emp on at all times. You can get handmedown greater banes on the cheap. Since undead won't be involved you shouldn't be able to walk thru the new level 16 quest and just mass charm/fod your way thru it. Even the casual players have uber equipment (you really need a paralyzer? here i have a bunch sitting in the bank that i never use....). Unless they up the anti on normal as you advance things will be more and more of a cake walk.

When the cap was 10, doing level 9/10 (or even 8 for some groups) quests on normal was challenging (xorian/von, tempest, threnal, co6) for the casual gamer. Since then we have had a lot of equipment inflation and caster power inflation (which is not equipment dependent, only build dependent). And we have learned better techniques. Level 13-14 quests on normal are no longer challenging for the casual player. And level 11-12 sure as heck aren't.

I don't know what you mean by casual player. As we all know, it is a simplification, if not misleading myth, that there are two types of players: casual and power. There is a large continuous distribution of player strengths and abilities. How often does your "casual player" play? It what groups do they run?

As a useful standard, imagine the following character: 28 point, non-min/maxed, only having the amount of loot comensurate with having just attained that level. No twinking, no loot runs. Four such characters run by competent adults should be able to complete the quests on the Normal setting at the appropriate level.

Obviously, as time goes on those of us that play a lot are going to get further away from this standard. The answer is not to make Normal harder.

As an aside, I think the time of having to unlock hard and elite is way past. We should be able to unlock any quest on any setting. Many of us should never be doing the Normal setting just like we never do the Solo setting.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 02:57 PM
At first I was against it as well, but at least they put in a longish timer. I AM a little afraid of how zergtastic its going to train new casters though. Theres going to be a new crop of shrine repeaters that won't be able to adjust very well to the elite difficulties.

Never underestimate the power of not checking patch notes.

I have run across a full 5% of people who still don't know that resurrection shrines are reusable. Who knows how many more I couldn't tell because it didn't come up.

In reality, this won't change much at all for most players. The Time versus XP is about the same. Run another quest in 15 minutes, or run back and reuse a shrine after waiting 15 minutes.

Stormcleave normal is going to be a playground, as it's longer than 15 minutes and has lots of shrines, but if you want to hang around for more than the normal 35-120 minutes it takes people to complete it... have at it, games were meant to be fun. I won't avail myself of it much...

It will be interesting to see if any future quests start to take this reusable nature into account. Would be hard as it's only available on normal, but then maybe the devs will only put in certain things on normal to compensate. Always seemed like their were two or more sides pushing against the middle at Turbine :D

Lizardgrad89
12-03-2007, 03:04 PM
How about giving us the option of skipping Normal then?

Normal is now pretty much a joke.

Maybe this could be a Favor reward...

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:07 PM
When does this new mod come out? I've heard late December all the way until Feb. so far.

I'm on a ticker here, I plan on coming back for the new stuff... but after that well thats another thread right. lol.

p.s. boy do i miss tharashk, thelenis isn't bad, but tharashk was like cheers!

And that's largely the reason they never tell us when it's really coming out.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:11 PM
Yes, the end encounter is usually the real challenge, but the party will always have full mana on entering now. Even if it means waiting. This really seems to encourage people to run stuff way under level to me.

I like the newbs too, I'll even play with them. :)

I just think that making normal even easier across the board is going to create new issues that haven't been thought of yet.

What issue? How many normal quests do you run? :D For me, this would affect Inferno of the Damned a *little* bit. In most cases, though, I would still take the 20% penalty than wait around for a shrine. I will play with a timer running, just to save a little bit.

But really... in almost any case it's more XP/time efficient to run another quest than to wait or run back for a shrine.

((Many people run stuff on Elite) + (Time versus XP tradeoff) + (Nicer to new people)) == Non-issue.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:15 PM
I don't know how many times my cleric (and even my wizard) have been asked to recall out for mana by zerging melees. So I think this is a great change.

And since I can't remember the last time I did a quest on normal if the group had a harder option available, I don't think this will be as big an issue as people are making it out to be.

Believe it or not it is not usually the casters that need to practice mana conservation.....it's the zering melees who usually cause the casters, especially the clerics, to need mana.
Also, I've planned my casters to be able to contribute in some way without mana.....my clerics have decent weapons and so do my arcanes. But I'm not even allowed to use them because as soon as I announce that I am OoM, some zerger is trying to persuade me to recall.

Granted there are already those arcanes that FOD there way through dungeons and expect DVs to support their play style.....another annoying thing for my Cleric who can actually turn undead and would like to enjoy Mod5 content my way instead of supporting the Sor kill count numbers......but again this change will help me alot.

Oddly enough, the recall button, as well as the DV and heal buttons, are on YOUR side of the screen, not theirs.

If more clerics were governors of their groups healing, fewer people would spam and zerg. Letting someone continually get down to 10% health before healing them is a great behavioral modifier :D

That being said, sometimes I really just want to get the quest over with. I haven't given a damn about XP in a veeeery long time, even on my non-14 characters (even my non-10 characters!). This game was meant to be played, not ended. With that in mind, who cares about the XP so much unless you have a specific goal (new item burning a hole in your bank, or buddies waiting at a higher level)

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:20 PM
Hey! now there is a great idea! If one person recalls and comes back in, everyone should get an XP penalty! Would fix those guys who refuse to release after a party wipe too.

And then could be used as a weapon by miscreant players. What about when the player had to leave because they thought they had to go or something, then finds out it was a false alarm.

It would have to be a penalty that was smarter. Like it notes how much life/mana they had on departure, and how much they have on reentry.

The jerk factor seems too high to let it go simply as departure and reentry. Recall and reenter a few times and suddenly the party is down 80% xp if the party leader didn't catch it fast enough and boot them while they're out.

Which reminds me.... Either by party vote or leader prerogative, there *needs to be something* to boot people while in a dungeon.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:21 PM
they change the shrines for normal now and next you will be able to use the shrines any time you want at any level, i can see it now bunch of lev 6 char in von 3 waiting 15 min to kill the last 3 mobs after they died and used the rest shrine.

That's probably going to be the biggest benefit of this.

Von 3, for a lot of level appropriate players, is supremely difficult to actually finish, largely because of mana concerns. And it's next to impossible for a lot of players to just recall out, or else they have to wade through the trolls outside again.

jjflanigan
12-03-2007, 03:22 PM
I thought shocking grasp had a save?

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 03:26 PM
I thought shocking grasp had a save?

Nope, just a "touch attack." :rolleyes:

(Chill Touch has a save, maybe you guys are all thinking of that?)

maddong
12-03-2007, 03:26 PM
As a useful standard, imagine the following character: 28 point, non-min/maxed, only having the amount of loot comensurate with having just attained that level. No twinking, no loot runs. Four such characters run by competent adults should be able to complete the quests on the Normal setting at the appropriate level.

If you cater the normal setting to 4 players that play in a box and don't interact with the world outside those 4 you are completely wasting the normal setting on too small of a demographic. People are going to buy "one man's junk" off of the auction house for cheap. The auction house trash is more than enough to equip yourself if you have the right build. And I don't think we should cater DDO to people that make trash builds. They can reroll at level 6 once they realize it.

And to the other poster, my comment about ghosts was regarding casual players on normal. The quest is frustrating in that regard.

As far as 7 min ghost on elite runs, that is a product of the metamagic feats and poor quest design. The whole level should drop down those holes, follow you and beat you down without dying in one firewall on elite. Then after you party wipe because you ran through the whole quest you can restart the quest because you have a whole quest worth of aggro sitting at the doomsphere.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:27 PM
I'm only coming from the perspective that putting things in like Vol/Potp in their original form are stupid wastes of high level quests. If you are advancing to level 16 on level 16 quests it should be difficult and fun instead of rinse/repeat for uber loot. High level quests/loot should be an accomplishment. They can't assume that everyone just has +5 weapons on normal. Casters keep max/emp on at all times. You can get handmedown greater banes on the cheap. Since undead won't be involved you shouldn't be able to walk thru the new level 16 quest and just mass charm/fod your way thru it. Even the casual players have uber equipment (you really need a paralyzer? here i have a bunch sitting in the bank that i never use....). Unless they up the anti on normal as you advance things will be more and more of a cake walk.

In paper and pencil, high level fights were often either instant death or cake walks.

The fighter was meeting out massive damage, the casters were single-handedly turning impossible encounters into trivialities.

Most of the difficulty of D&D, paper and pencil, was finding the quests. Past level 12 or 14, the fights were just entertainment.

The best way to improve the difficulty of the game would be to vastly improve the AI. Anything else would be a more time-intensive exercise as it will need to be repeated for every quest, rather than a large amount of effort once and tweaks as it goes along.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:28 PM
Except when a vital team member takes that mysterious AFK that takes 10 minutes. Then suddenly the ability to get back the SPs and use/day things that were wasted waiting for them becomes very nice. Rarely will a group need this ability, but it makes soloing casters possible.

So you've already paid the price (time), so you just so happen to get the reward.

Doesn't invalidate the point. :)

Lizardgrad89
12-03-2007, 03:28 PM
Aggro.

It needs tweaking, IMO.

I think it's a fine thing that mobs are now smart enough to move out of cloudkill, but why did that mean they now run right at me (particularly in landscape mode)? It's a non-directional spell, I can throw it off with Extend from far beyond their line of vision, I can even throw it and hide behind a rock before it affects them, so how do they know exactly the place it came from? Shouldn't it just put them on alert? All the non-directional spells have the same issue. A firewall could have come from ANYWHERE, as could Acid Rain, or Charm Monster, or a dozen others.

And those undead archers in Stormcleave! Excuse me, but I am WAY out of sight, and there is a huge fallen marble column between me and them. How can they hit me EVERY SINGLE TIME? It makes no logical sense. Arrows from that distance should fall randomly and hit adventurers randomly, if at all.

As for CK, there should be a "tear gas" reaction to it. Mobs should be able to try to run from it (with a save roll for running out of the cloud without getting disoriented), but even if they did get away, they should probably be mildly incapacitated with coughing and gagging for at least 6 seconds (second save roll for incapacity). During that time, the caster could be laying down additional CK until the mobs are overcome. Could be expensive in Mana, but it is cloud KILL after all. There should be effects from breathing it beyond the simple constitution loss.

Overall, the mobs just seem so MINDLESS, like robots. The same mobs use the same attacks, the same spells, run to the same places. SOME of them have to be smarter than ooze. Why can't a bit of randomness be included in their responses? I mean, wouldn't it be interesting if occasionally they sent for REINFORCEMENTS? Heck, for that matter, why can't we have WANDERING MONSTERS? Nothing like rampaging through Crucible and having a beholder pop up out of nowhere.

There has been a lot of talk about making the game more interesting. Fixing aggro and adding some random factors would do that quite easily.

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:30 PM
In some of the responses I am reading here. It's almost as if we (forum users/posters) are sitting by the side of hole
just waiting for something to fall in that we can pounce on. I mean, really, why all the negativity here about something
that won't affect most people once their toons are past level 3-5?

Seriously, I am getting disgusted by the maturity (or rather lack thereof) Of some who post here. Soooooooooooooooo,
I am just going to say good day to you all. I am done with these forums. Have a nice brawl Guys and Gals, and cya in the
funny papers..................

If you happen to read this... can I have your forum stuff?

Just kidding. In reality what I wanted to say was: Good for you for thinking that interaction should be better. Stick around and do it, instead of giving parting shots and taking your ball and going home.

Seriously, stick around and raise the bar. It'll get awfully lonely otherwise!

Jaywade
12-03-2007, 03:30 PM
That's probably going to be the biggest benefit of this.

Von 3, for a lot of level appropriate players, is supremely difficult to actually finish, largely because of mana concerns. And it's next to impossible for a lot of players to just recall out, or else they have to wade through the trolls outside again.

yeah this is going to be a great help to Von 3....and your right you might be surprised how many grps at that lvl still have a tough time w/ that quest ....scales runs will be a little easier now as well... but I think this is a good change and doesn;t break the game any

maddong
12-03-2007, 03:34 PM
Fixing AI aggro is a very hard problem. If you start having monsters avoid cloudkills you have to decide what to do when the players just sit in the cloud kill. Does the monster run in and out of it, like a chicken while being ranged to death? Or does the monster then just take the sacrifice and fight in the cloudkill? Or does the monster just convert to ranged attack mode? Or does he target a player that is not sitting in crowd control if possible? What does the monster do when the whole area is covered with crowd control, does it turn into panic mode running into a wall? What does the monster do when the player drops a solid fog in between them? Does the monster view different crowd controls as different threats? How much CPU time will the pathing take?

Dirac
12-03-2007, 03:34 PM
Nope, just a "touch attack." :rolleyes:

(Chill Touch has a save, maybe you guys are all thinking of that?)

In the beginning, there was a save for shocking grasp. I still have the data if you want me to drag it out. :)

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:35 PM
If you cater the normal setting to 4 players that play in a box and don't interact with the world outside those 4 you are completely wasting the normal setting on too small of a demographic. People are going to buy "one man's junk" off of the auction house for cheap. The auction house trash is more than enough to equip yourself if you have the right build. And I don't think we should cater DDO to people that make trash builds. They can reroll at level 6 once they realize it.

And to the other poster, my comment about ghosts was regarding casual players on normal. The quest is frustrating in that regard.

As far as 7 min ghost on elite runs, that is a product of the metamagic feats and poor quest design. The whole level should drop down those holes, follow you and beat you down without dying in one firewall on elite. Then after you party wipe because you ran through the whole quest you can restart the quest because you have a whole quest worth of aggro sitting at the doomsphere.

Broadening the demographics of play to include those 4 people in a box, without really affecting the play styles of any other 4-12 people in their box, can only help the game.

As for your Ghosts comment. I wish this was the case. Then I could get that frigging shield chest without so much work! The whole quest is undead... a couple of preparatory clam-bakes and that whole dungeon of aggro is a non-issue. Have the caster throw some down in a line towards the aggro and watch the assembly line of undeath death!

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:37 PM
Aggro.

It needs tweaking, IMO.

I think it's a fine thing that mobs are now smart enough to move out of cloudkill, but why did that mean they now run right at me (particularly in landscape mode)? It's a non-directional spell, I can throw it off with Extend from far beyond their line of vision, I can even throw it and hide behind a rock before it affects them, so how do they know exactly the place it came from? Shouldn't it just put them on alert? All the non-directional spells have the same issue. A firewall could have come from ANYWHERE, as could Acid Rain, or Charm Monster, or a dozen others.

And those undead archers in Stormcleave! Excuse me, but I am WAY out of sight, and there is a huge fallen marble column between me and them. How can they hit me EVERY SINGLE TIME? It makes no logical sense. Arrows from that distance should fall randomly and hit adventurers randomly, if at all.

As for CK, there should be a "tear gas" reaction to it. Mobs should be able to try to run from it (with a save roll for running out of the cloud without getting disoriented), but even if they did get away, they should probably be mildly incapacitated with coughing and gagging for at least 6 seconds (second save roll for incapacity). During that time, the caster could be laying down additional CK until the mobs are overcome. Could be expensive in Mana, but it is cloud KILL after all. There should be effects from breathing it beyond the simple constitution loss.

Overall, the mobs just seem so MINDLESS, like robots. The same mobs use the same attacks, the same spells, run to the same places. SOME of them have to be smarter than ooze. Why can't a bit of randomness be included in their responses? I mean, wouldn't it be interesting if occasionally they sent for REINFORCEMENTS? Heck, for that matter, why can't we have WANDERING MONSTERS? Nothing like rampaging through Crucible and having a beholder pop up out of nowhere.

There has been a lot of talk about making the game more interesting. Fixing aggro and adding some random factors would do that quite easily.

And why do mobs that aren't affected by a spell get ****ed. :D Ever hit a bunch of undead with cloudkill, or fire mephits running over webs? You would think you just called their mother a nasty name, not him them with a spell (accidentally or otherwise) that they should barely notice.

Brimy
12-03-2007, 03:38 PM
Love the idea of shrines resetting on solo and normal, gives my soloing career a brighter future. Good idea Turbine and thankyou.:)

Spookydodger
12-03-2007, 03:38 PM
NEW - Improved precise shot is now a toggle feat and can be performed with untargetted shots.

So does this mean that IPS will simply go till it hits a wall or max range is achieved? Or simply that if you put your crosshairs over a mob without somehow putting it over all the mobs between, it will work?

Dirac
12-03-2007, 03:44 PM
If you cater the normal setting to 4 players that play in a box and don't interact with the world outside those 4 you are completely wasting the normal setting on too small of a demographic. People are going to buy "one man's junk" off of the auction house for cheap. The auction house trash is more than enough to equip yourself if you have the right build. And I don't think we should cater DDO to people that make trash builds. They can reroll at level 6 once they realize it.

And to the other poster, my comment about ghosts was regarding casual players on normal. The quest is frustrating in that regard.

As far as 7 min ghost on elite runs, that is a product of the metamagic feats and poor quest design. The whole level should drop down those holes, follow you and beat you down without dying in one firewall on elite. Then after you party wipe because you ran through the whole quest you can restart the quest because you have a whole quest worth of aggro sitting at the doomsphere.

It is difficult to respond meaningfully because I don't know if you are purposefully misconstruing my comments or not. First, I believe you are just wrong; there is a sizable fraction of players that play in "static groups," characters that play with each other and don't pug. I never said the character wouldn't buy things from the AH. Obviously, a 14 level character will have accumulated money adventuring to 14th level and would use that money to improve their character. I never said they should accommodate trash builds, let’s call them average builds.

Most importantly, I never said they should cater to any specific demographic. Again, obviously, DDO will want to have a range of difficulties to cover the wide range of player strengths. I gave where I think Normal should be pegged. Of course, that will be on the low end. To what degree we start freezing people out of the game by increasing the difficulty of Normal from there, we do not know.

maddong
12-03-2007, 03:44 PM
As for your Ghosts comment. I wish this was the case. Then I could get that frigging shield chest without so much work! The whole quest is undead... a couple of preparatory clam-bakes and that whole dungeon of aggro is a non-issue. Have the caster throw some down in a line towards the aggro and watch the assembly line of undeath death!

I guess my point is the quest is designed poorly to allow the AI to be exploited. The single file aggro coming up would be similarly poor. If you tried to do that in PNP what would the DM do to you? That is a better question.

I'd have the arcanes start throwing out hastes and pro fires. The flensers would get just out of range of your crowd control and start spamming ice storms. The wight priests would pass out free movements. The mephits would charge and start gas breathing the party. The skeleton warriors would charge, avoiding any firewalls and target the casters if possible, otherwise the melees if you have a good defense set up that didn't just rely on "spell placement." The arcanes would then start their attack with some debuffing followed by offense. The wights would start their attack with cometfall. But these are undead you say? These are intelligent undead with class abilities teamed with powerful demons. Maybe I'd let the mephits die in your CC and throw you a bone there.

So when they are designing things, the elite difficulties should take into account the weaknesses of the AI (extra doors if needed/whatever they need to do to compensate). Some of this can be done with monsters spell prepping in preparation for the players (similar to what the players do) and spell selection on elite settings.

maddong
12-03-2007, 03:50 PM
I gave where I think Normal should be pegged. Of course, that will be on the low end. To what degree we start freezing people out of the game by increasing the difficulty from there, we do not know.

At some point you have to freeze people out of high level play if they are incompetant (or little kids that yell into voice chat). Eventually they will improve their skills, have fun leveling up other characters, and be fine. You are fighting against enemy casters that have access to everything you have, things should be hard.

I gave my example of a fun quest on normal, Inferno. It is frustrating the first time you run thru it but can be done with resources or reentering the quest (a valid game mechanic in ddo, it has a penalty). But one person that knows what they are doing can lead people that don't thru it and it is still challenging. For a group that all knows what they are doing it is a cakewalk, and they move on to higher difficulties.

It was also fun to figure out for the first time and still feels fun because you have to coordinate things.

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 03:52 PM
And why do mobs that aren't affected by a spell get ****ed. :D Ever hit a bunch of undead with cloudkill, or fire mephits running over webs? You would think you just called their mother a nasty name, not him them with a spell (accidentally or otherwise) that they should barely notice.

I mean, it's not like we go straight for the casters before they even cast spells.

:eek:

Qzipoun
12-03-2007, 03:57 PM
I mean, it's not like we go straight for the casters before they even cast spells.

:eek:

But then why have aggro at all? Why not have mobs go straight for clerics then casters then tanks? That's what we do, so why the difference?

Well... because it won't be fun.

There needs to be a way to control aggro and throwing a web at a troll should not get the fire mephit next to him to aggro on me. (For the same reason my firewall doesn't hurt my allies etc, it makes the gameplay more enjoyable).

GrayOldDruid
12-03-2007, 04:00 PM
I guess my point is the quest is designed poorly to allow the AI to be exploited. The single file aggro coming up would be similarly poor. If you tried to do that in PNP what would the DM do to you? That is a better question.

I'd have the arcanes start throwing out hastes and pro fires. The flensers would get just out of range of your crowd control and start spamming ice storms. The wight priests would pass out free movements. The mephits would charge and start gas breathing the party. The skeleton warriors would charge, avoiding any firewalls and target the casters if possible, otherwise the melees if you have a good defense set up that didn't just rely on "spell placement." The arcanes would then start their attack with some debuffing followed by offense. The wights would start their attack with cometfall. But these are undead you say? These are intelligent undead with class abilities teamed with powerful demons. Maybe I'd let the mephits die in your CC and throw you a bone there.

So when they are designing things, the elite difficulties should take into account the weaknesses of the AI (extra doors if needed/whatever they need to do to compensate). Some of this can be done with monsters spell prepping in preparation for the players (similar to what the players do) and spell selection on elite settings.

Since they are improving the AI, they should also decrease the Uber-powering enhancenemts the Mobs get... like their spellcasters NEVER running out of Spell Points... their throwers NEVER running out of ammo, their UBER hit-points in comparison to the party. 12HD Kobolds with an un-ending supply of Spell Points and Greek-Fire and NOW improved AI?

maddong
12-03-2007, 04:14 PM
Since they are improving the AI, they should also decrease the Uber-powering enhancenemts the Mobs get... like their spellcasters NEVER running out of Spell Points... their throwers NEVER running out of ammo, their UBER hit-points in comparison to the party. 12HD Kobolds with an un-ending supply of Spell Points and Greek-Fire and NOW improved AI?

Sure, I'd be for that.

Ok, if people are for wasting the normal difficulty by catering to the lowest common denominator how about a new difficulty setting only selectable on character creation.

HARDCORE (a check box between your race/sex and class selection)
Anyone may select hardcore, even new accounts with no favor.
Drow are not selectable on hardcore characters.
Hardcore characters get 36 stat points to distribute at character creation.
Hardcore characters may use items 1 level earlier than regular characters.
Hardcore characters may not join a group where any quest is open on the normal difficulty setting.
Hardcore characters may not use the solo setting.
Once a hardcore character joins a group that group may only open quests on hard (or elite if unlocked).

muffinlad
12-03-2007, 04:24 PM
But now you're giving up c) time.

There's no way I'm waiting 15 minutes for a shrine to reset unless it's a REALLY long quest (and I can't think of many).

15 minutes is huge compared to the quest length, by the time you use a shrine and let it reset you're probably either done or have reached the next shrine.

Agree. Having them reset after 15 min on normal is fine. This will impact players who are playing for fun, and want to come back to part of a quest they didn't zerg though (or did). This is a fine nod to the casual player that wont imbalance Hard or Elite play at all.

Well done.

muffinshiner

Lorien_the_First_One
12-03-2007, 04:40 PM
Fixing AI aggro is a very hard problem. If you start having monsters avoid cloudkills you have to decide what to do when the players just sit in the cloud kill. Does the monster run in and out of it, like a chicken while being ranged to death? Or does the monster then just take the sacrifice and fight in the cloudkill? Or does the monster just convert to ranged attack mode? Or does he target a player that is not sitting in crowd control if possible? What does the monster do when the whole area is covered with crowd control, does it turn into panic mode running into a wall? What does the monster do when the player drops a solid fog in between them? Does the monster view different crowd controls as different threats? How much CPU time will the pathing take?

And to add to that... does the cleric in the monster party recognize the ck and start handing out neutralize poison and greater restoration? Or does the mob pop on their resist poison necklace like we would? (Well like we should, some of us are slow :p)

Lorien_the_First_One
12-03-2007, 04:43 PM
There needs to be a way to control aggro and throwing a web at a troll should not get the fire mephit next to him to aggro on me. (For the same reason my firewall doesn't hurt my allies etc, it makes the gameplay more enjoyable).


I disagree, you just webbed his friend, he knows he is next, he'd be crazy NOT to go directly for you. That's good AI.

And as for your friends not being hurt by your firewall.....I think it would be much better game play if we did have friendly fire.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 05:00 PM
Sure, I'd be for that.

Ok, if people are for wasting the normal difficulty by catering to the lowest common denominator how about a new difficulty setting only selectable on character creation.

HARDCORE (a check box between your race/sex and class selection)
Anyone may select hardcore, even new accounts with no favor.
Drow are not selectable on hardcore characters.
Hardcore characters get 36 stat points to distribute at character creation.
Hardcore characters may use items 1 level earlier than regular characters.
Hardcore characters may not join a group where any quest is open on the normal difficulty setting.
Hardcore characters may not use the solo setting.
Once a hardcore character joins a group that group may only open quests on hard (or elite if unlocked).

So Selecting "Hardcore" makes it Easier for you to complete difficult quests? What sense does that make? a 36pt Dwarf would be rediculous.

Tanka
12-03-2007, 05:07 PM
NEW - A banker has been added to Zawabi's Refuge.
THANK YOU!

Phax
12-03-2007, 05:37 PM
Devs- please comment on the oversized crate bug if you think you can fix it for Mod 6.

While it's not in the release notes a fix did already go into Mod 6.

Dane_McArdy
12-03-2007, 05:40 PM
While it's not in the release notes a fix did already go into Mod 6.

/humor on

OMGODZ! How cud u leave this outz? It's the nlething iv been wanting to c fixed!

/humor off

greystone306
12-03-2007, 06:03 PM
/humor on

OMGODZ! How cud u leave this outz? It's the nlething iv been wanting to c fixed!

/humor off

watch out.. now we'll end up with oversized Barrels Instead...... Or Potions that are so big they take up a whole bp LOL

Pellegro
12-03-2007, 06:52 PM
/humor on

OMGODZ! How cud u leave this outz? It's the nlething iv been wanting to c fixed!

/humor off

I am so sorry, but you have rolled a 1.

dinin_darkblade
12-03-2007, 06:52 PM
liking what I have seen so far... sparingly given out as it has been lol. I was just wondering though do you yet have an eta for module 6?? Last I heard was some time in Dec. or Jan... but that was a month or two ago. Was hoping to get an eta by dec. and since we have heard nothing I am beginning to worry might not be out till Jan. or Feb. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance :)

Dinin Darkblade

Twerpp
12-03-2007, 07:06 PM
Nothing really stunning this week..

dameron
12-03-2007, 07:18 PM
Yeah, I guess between the time argument and the nice-to-new-people argument, I've been convinced too.

It's the single best thing I think they've ever done to encourage small guilds and groups that don't pug.

My small (4-6 member) guild all quit over the last six months because it was becoming more and more clear that the "designed for a party of 4" mentality was gone.

Now at least casual and/or small groups will get to play and advance, even if it is just on normal.

Boneyard
12-03-2007, 07:34 PM
# Ram's Might

* Transmutation
* Level: Rgr 1
* Enlarges the hands of the caster, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.

Since sizing is being introduced, does this mean that halflings are going to start being at a bigger disadvantage? Movement speeds decreased, damage output lessened?


The intimidate skill has always factored in the size of your target. You get a bonus when attempting to intimidate creatures that are smaller than you and get a penalty against creatures that are larger than you. The description for this skill now explains this.

Almost forgot about this one, are halflings actually going to be be considered small creatures for this?

Enquiring minds want to know.

-J

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 07:57 PM
Since sizing is being introduced, does this mean that halflings are going to start being at a bigger disadvantage? Movement speeds decreased, damage output lessened?



Almost forgot about this one, are halflings actually going to be be considered small creatures for this?

Enquiring minds want to know.

-J

They already are for Intimidate.. Have been since the game started......

I doubt they will change movemenet, although it seems to me movement already varies a bit race to race.....

As for damage... THere is not PnP penalty for damage..... As a matter of face they get a +1 bous to attack (Whick DDO also provides) They should be restricted to small weapons.... but I doubt that would ever change as well.

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 08:19 PM
While it's not in the release notes a fix did already go into Mod 6.

Phax ftw!

Lorien_the_First_One
12-03-2007, 08:46 PM
While it's not in the release notes a fix did already go into Mod 6.

Gosh Darn It All Phax, we like the magic huge crates that have small crate bottoms.

Boneyard
12-03-2007, 09:11 PM
As for damage... THere is not PnP penalty for damage..... As a matter of face they get a +1 bous to attack (Whick DDO also provides) They should be restricted to small weapons.... but I doubt that would ever change as well.


You sure about this? I'll have to check my sourcebooks this weekend, but I swear a small sized greatsword only does a 1d10 damage and a small sized dagger 1d3. I mean if there is no difference on a weapon size damage my greatsword should put out the same damage as the Reaver's?

-J

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 09:26 PM
You sure about this? I'll have to check my sourcebooks this weekend, but I swear a small sized greatsword only does a 1d10 damage and a small sized dagger 1d3. I mean if there is no difference on a weapon size damage my greatsword should put out the same damage as the Reaver's?

-J

When did we get "Small" Daggers and "Small" Greatswords?

DDO doesnt have these (Not that I've ever heard of them, but I admit I'm not totally up pn 3.5 Ruleset)

Falco_Easts
12-03-2007, 09:36 PM
Since sizing is being introduced, does this mean that halflings are going to start being at a bigger disadvantage? Movement speeds decreased, damage output lessened?



Almost forgot about this one, are halflings actually going to be be considered small creatures for this?

Enquiring minds want to know.

-J

I would take a stab and say they put it down as a size enhancement so it can stack with other non size strength enhancements.

Ringlord
12-03-2007, 09:40 PM
Yes I was very disappointed after the post by the advertising guy saying how there was some exciting stuff coming up and having no WDA last week even though that was expected. I expected to see a bit more of something more substantial this week.

The shrine change on normal is more of a move toward the pnp game since in pnp you could rest as often as you liked during a quest unless you were on a time constraint, it was not like once you used a spot for a camp you could not ever use it again. I doubt very much people will waste the time waiting for the shrines to reset in most quests when they are running with a full party, but for solo play this makes a big difference. Now the devs do not have to devote time to making a solo mode for higher level quests.

The only possible problem I see is the solo players favorite tactic will be to pull mobs back to shrines to fight them there so they can rez and heal if they die or heal if they win and then go pull again. I don't see this becoming a popular way to play, but this may not be what the devs intended by doing this if players start to use it that way.

CrazySamaritan
12-03-2007, 09:41 PM
Someone hasn't read what Righteous Might does to the Caster.

Sizing is not being introduced.

SteeleTrueheart
12-03-2007, 09:44 PM
liking what I have seen so far... sparingly given out as it has been lol. I was just wondering though do you yet have an eta for module 6?? Last I heard was some time in Dec. or Jan... but that was a month or two ago. Was hoping to get an eta by dec. and since we have heard nothing I am beginning to worry might not be out till Jan. or Feb. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance :)

Dinin Darkblade

I would expect before christmas. I wouldnt want people who are playing to have to go through the christmas/new year holiday period without new content to do in the game. It would be an invitation for players to try another MMO over the holidays. (I dont believe the Jester, when he appears, counts as new content)

This is all guestimates because I do not work for Turbine and I have no idea as to when Mod 6 will really be out.

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 09:44 PM
When did we get "Small" Daggers and "Small" Greatswords?

DDO doesnt have these (Not that I've ever heard of them, but I admit I'm not totally up pn 3.5 Ruleset)

In D&D 3.5, you have to use weapons that are sized for you. Small creatures (like Halflings, Gnomes, Kobolds, Goblins, etc.) have to use small Weapons. Medium creatures (like Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Warforged, Hobgoblins, Orcs, etc.) have to use medium weapons. Large creatures (like Trolls, Hill Giants, etc.) use large weapons.

Details one what, exactly, that means can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize), but generally speaking, the smaller the weapon, the less damage it deals.

Impaqt
12-03-2007, 10:00 PM
In D&D 3.5, you have to use weapons that are sized for you. Small creatures (like Halflings, Gnomes, Kobolds, Goblins, etc.) have to use small Weapons. Medium creatures (like Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Warforged, Hobgoblins, Orcs, etc.) have to use medium weapons. Large creatures (like Trolls, Hill Giants, etc.) use large weapons.

Details one what, exactly, that means can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize), but generally speaking, the smaller the weapon, the less damage it deals.

Ok, that makes miore sense.. But we still dont have that in DDO do we?

Falco_Easts
12-03-2007, 10:03 PM
Ok, that makes miore sense.. But we still dont have that in DDO do we?

No, not yet.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-03-2007, 10:58 PM
I would expect before christmas. I wouldnt want people who are playing to have to go through the christmas/new year holiday period without new content to do in the game. It would be an invitation for players to try another MMO over the holidays. (I dont believe the Jester, when he appears, counts as new content)

This is all guestimates because I do not work for Turbine and I have no idea as to when Mod 6 will really be out.


One of the devs was playing riddles with the date in another thread and the consensous seemed to be everyone thought the riddle meant the release was planned for January.

Kerr
12-03-2007, 11:33 PM
Whatever Mod 6 comes out on, I don't care at this point. But where is the Jester?!??!?!

Hakushi
12-03-2007, 11:45 PM
Any plans to put back the Tomb quests in the Necropolis section instead of the Orchard. (Litany of the Dead part 1 and 2 quests.) None of the questgivers are in the Orchard and this is highly confusing for new players. (These quests are the only ones in the entire game placed in the wrong area.)

Gypsy_Mouse
12-04-2007, 01:09 AM
NEW - Path to Madness will give favor again



Finally, though I don't understand why it took so long to do this.

So does that mean we'll have to run the quest again to regain the favor we originally had for it?

Shade
12-04-2007, 02:43 AM
Finally, though I don't understand why it took so long to do this.

So does that mean we'll have to run the quest again to regain the favor we originally had for it?
No.

Spookydodger
12-04-2007, 05:43 AM
I disagree, you just webbed his friend, he knows he is next, he'd be crazy NOT to go directly for you. That's good AI.

And as for your friends not being hurt by your firewall.....I think it would be much better game play if we did have friendly fire.

Good AI would be

an intelligence check to see if he could identify the threat, on both the Troll and the Mephit. Both to figure out that the guy that just threw the web might be able to take the troll out of the equation, if only temporarily.
determine that the mephit cannot be harmed by the web, and can bypass it to reach the caster
attack and neutralize the caster or
have the mephit keep breathing fire on the web to burn it away


But we don't have good AI.

We have a blanket HUGE amount of hate that occurs when a mob passes through an area affect spell, no matter what it is or how effective it is.

Throwing hypnotize from a scroll, for instance, should not get as much hate as hypnotize from a decent caster as the saves are much better on the latter.

Intelligence checks should be made for mobs to determine if they realize they can't be harmed (fairly easy), and then whether or not any of their compatriots can be harmed (harder check), and agro based on that.

However, with the way things roll around here, I doubt we can expect anything so comprehensive any time soon.

Spookydodger
12-04-2007, 05:45 AM
/humor on

OMGODZ! How cud u leave this outz? It's the nlething iv been wanting to c fixed!

/humor off

o.O

Spookydodger
12-04-2007, 05:47 AM
Since sizing is being introduced, does this mean that halflings are going to start being at a bigger disadvantage? Movement speeds decreased, damage output lessened?

-J

signs point to "no". And as was pointed out, they have not done anything with sizing, just the stats. There was a comment before that sizing caused clipping issues.

Though really... that's some weak sauce. Our game, which looks so wonderful, can't figure out to expand your bounding box a bit and make you grow towards open areas? Make the spell fail if the bounding box would expand into geometry, if if it's that big of a deal! (other than the ground... might be hard to avoid that during transformation)

Spookydodger
12-04-2007, 05:48 AM
They already are for Intimidate.. Have been since the game started......

I doubt they will change movemenet, although it seems to me movement already varies a bit race to race.....

As for damage... THere is not PnP penalty for damage..... As a matter of face they get a +1 bous to attack (Whick DDO also provides) They should be restricted to small weapons.... but I doubt that would ever change as well.

The size difference for weapons is the penalty to damage.

And since so little of the damage that melees do is based on the base damage of the weapon, it wouldn't change much.

There's a psuedo-penalty to some halflings in their speed.... they get a reduced carrying capacity, but their gear is the same weight as full sized people! :D

Spookydodger
12-04-2007, 05:51 AM
Yes I was very disappointed after the post by the advertising guy saying how there was some exciting stuff coming up and having no WDA last week even though that was expected. I expected to see a bit more of something more substantial this week.


That will teach you to listen to spin doc*cough* Marketing people. :D

arcsonist
12-04-2007, 07:06 AM
Now that improved percison shot will be a toggled feat will it work when I hit many shot or are you going to break the combo attack? A little feed back from devs will be apperciated.

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 07:31 AM
signs point to "no". And as was pointed out, they have not done anything with sizing, just the stats. There was a comment before that sizing caused clipping issues.

Though really... that's some weak sauce. Our game, which looks so wonderful, can't figure out to expand your bounding box a bit and make you grow towards open areas? Make the spell fail if the bounding box would expand into geometry, if if it's that big of a deal! (other than the ground... might be hard to avoid that during transformation)

I don't think they meant issues with the display as much as clipping issues with moving around. Surely you've seen all of the gates, holes, doors, etc that the large monsters can't get through (trolls, etc.). If they allowed all the PC characters to grow as well, they'd have to completely redo how the clipping works on doorways and such or go through every quest and resize all the areas to allow for the larger characters to make sure they were able to progress all the way through the quest.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 07:52 AM
Throwing hypnotize from a scroll, for instance, should not get as much hate as hypnotize from a decent caster as the saves are much better on the latter.

Are you serious?

How are the monsters going to know what the save DC of a spell you cast? And why in the world would it affect whether or not they think they should kill you first?

It boils down to the fact that someone who can cast a spell, whether it's from a scroll or wand or their own SP, can probably also throw down other stuff that will hurt them. Even if the particular spell in question doesn't.

GrayOldDruid
12-04-2007, 08:10 AM
Are you serious?

How are the monsters going to know what the save DC of a spell you cast? And why in the world would it affect whether or not they think they should kill you first?

It boils down to the fact that someone who can cast a spell, whether it's from a scroll or wand or their own SP, can probably also throw down other stuff that will hurt them. Even if the particular spell in question doesn't.

My comment on the whole spell aggro thing is How do they know who cast what? I could be hiding, pop a spell and all of a sudden they know where I am and how exactly to get to me. How long does it take you to know what caster is targeting you and where they are? There is often at least a few seconds of searching for "Who is casting on me!!??!!" then a few more of "How do I get to them??"

Also, with my Ranger, I shoot one guy from up above, hiding.... and !!! No searching, no "Where the heck did that come from?" just instant everyone in the area up the hill around the corner and attack the archer!!

Attack should not equate with instant, full-on, full knowledge aggro. Unless MY auto attack will auto-lead me to the best place to attack the last person to attack/hurt me, even when I can't find them in under .37 seconds.

AND... shooting a bow and casting a spell should not break Sneak... give penalties, yes, break, no. Same with opening a door and pulling a lever.

Cowdenicus
12-04-2007, 08:53 AM
is it just me or is the cleric spell list still really really thin.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-04-2007, 08:54 AM
Are you serious?

How are the monsters going to know what the save DC of a spell you cast? And why in the world would it affect whether or not they think they should kill you first?

It boils down to the fact that someone who can cast a spell, whether it's from a scroll or wand or their own SP, can probably also throw down other stuff that will hurt them. Even if the particular spell in question doesn't.

First rule of combat...kill the casters.... the only debate is cleric or mage first.



My comment on the whole spell aggro thing is How do they know who cast what? I could be hiding, pop a spell and all of a sudden they know where I am and how exactly to get to me. How long does it take you to know what caster is targeting you and where they are? There is often at least a few seconds of searching for "Who is casting on me!!??!!" then a few more of "How do I get to them??"

Well you waved your arms around while saying funny magic words. Anything with an INT of 6 or better probably figured it out.

Um..plus our names and classes appear in their focus orb, the same way we can tell who the casters are :D

Lo_Pan
12-04-2007, 09:00 AM
I got to say it: I'm still singularly unimpressed with the spells in the next mod. Having a caster as my main, I guess you'd say that even getting some spells is a little love. So far, the only things that look vaguely interesting are polar ray and trap the soul.

Tanka
12-04-2007, 09:20 AM
First rule of combat...kill the casters.... the only debate is cleric or mage first.
Cleric. Unless it's a WF party and you've got a Wizard healer. Then the Wizard.

Cleric -> Caster -> Melee Doom Squad -> Ranged Doofs. Always that order, unless the archers are the archers from Ataraxia's Haven. Then I usually take them out after casters.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 09:24 AM
Um..plus our names and classes appear in their focus orb, the same way we can tell who the casters are :D

Haha! Nice.

Mad_Bombardier
12-04-2007, 09:39 AM
Um..plus our names and classes appear in their focus orb, the same way we can tell who the casters are :D"Blue Bar. Get him!" :D

Kerr
12-04-2007, 10:12 AM
There's a psuedo-penalty to some halflings in their speed.... they get a reduced carrying capacity, but their gear is the same weight as full sized people! :D

No they don't. Small sized armor weighs like half the weight or something like that.

ahpook
12-04-2007, 10:43 AM
No they don't. Small sized armor weighs like half the weight or something like that.
Not in DDO. All plate mail weighs the same regardless of whether it is being worn by a human or a halfling.

Lyletuba
12-04-2007, 10:49 AM
Weekly Development Activities

In QA
These items are currently in testing for release in Module 6.
General Skills, Feats & Abilities changes

Crippling strike now occurs with ranged sneak attacks using bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons.

Items

Critical hit effects on weapons were preventing in certain rare circumstances sneak attack damage from applying. This has been fixed.


Weren't these already fixed in Mod 5? See Final Release Notes: Module 5: The Accursed Ascension (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122318)

EDIT - And shouldn't "Critical hit effects" be replaced with "Extra Damage Effects"? The issue related to elemental and alignment type damage alerting the mob to the Rog's presence. This damage occurs on all hits, not just Critical hits. Unless the issue was later narrowed to only apply to critical hot damage?

The_Phenx
12-04-2007, 11:23 AM
Right but when your halfling fighter can carry 3 tons.. who cares...

Soul-Shaker
12-04-2007, 11:37 AM
General Spell Changes
NEW - Shocking Grasp can no longer be Heightened, as it has no save. [B]

Um.... I hope devs arent forgetting that Heighten creates opportunities to bypass SR and Spell mantles/Globe of invulns. Just because it doesnt have a save, doesnt mean theres no other use for Heightening it, even though it is a rarely used spell late game. Please be careful about spells in the future.

Laith
12-04-2007, 11:39 AM
Um.... I hope devs arent forgetting that Heighten creates opportunities to bypass SR and Spell mantles/Globe of invulns. Just because it doesnt have a save, doesnt mean theres no other use for Heightening it, even though it is a rarely used spell late game. Please be careful about spells in the future.
heighten never has anything to do with SR, only DC & spell level. SR is only based on CASTER level, not spell level.

While in PnP, heighten overcomes mantles/globes, it never has in DDO as far as i know. Good suggestion to make though...

STROBE
12-04-2007, 12:24 PM
I'm not sure I'm crazy about this. On Solo, sure, landscape ones, okay, but in Normal difficulty quests? It practically eliminates the need for mana management and makes every quest soloable by a single caster.

I agree with your thoughts re mana management.

But then I thought, What mana management? How much mana management do I see now? What I see are casters recalling for mana after going through it like (your choice of expressions.)

But at least with wizards and sorcerer's, they are going through their own mana.

Clerics' mana is gone through by two-weapon and two-handed fighters that don't have the AC, the build, or the skillz to play two-weapon and two-handed fighters. This lack of mana managment - by melee - is many times as prevalent as that of casters. And ultimately, demoralizing to clerics.

Sadly many of these fighters - and I use the term loosely - have the *expectation* that the cleric will recall for mana - to enable them to 'play the way we want'. And more than a few are to the point of demanding that the cleric recall.

At least this shrinage change eliminates the need for recalls and the accompanying reentry XP penalties for clerics.

But then I thougt, When do I ever see a run on normal difficulty? What, 1 in 5, 1 in 10. So looks like clerics will continue to have plenty of opportunities to be demoralized.

But then I thought, Hey, I could solo all the quests on normal, without xp penalty. And so could all the other clerics. And where will that leave all those so called fighters?

Impaqt
12-04-2007, 12:30 PM
Clerics' mana is gone through by two-weapon and two-handed fighters that don't have the AC, the build, or the skillz to play two-weapon and two-handed fighters. This lack of mana managment - by melee - is many times as prevalent as that of casters. And ultimately, demoralizing to clerics.





Only if YOU let them...... If a melee cannot handle the damage, let em die, put em in your pocket and solo the rest of the quest.

STROBE
12-04-2007, 12:41 PM
Only if YOU let them...... If a melee cannot handle the damage, let em die, put em in your pocket and solo the rest of the quest.

I see. I see you don't pug very often. And maybe solo alot?

Impaqt
12-04-2007, 01:02 PM
I see. I see you don't pug very often. And maybe solo alot?


Quite the opposite.. I pug quite a bit..... I find my Clerical style improves peoples play.

maddmatt70
12-04-2007, 01:14 PM
I agree with your thoughts re mana management.

But then I thought, What mana management? How much mana management do I see now? What I see are casters recalling for mana after going through it like (your choice of expressions.)

But at least with wizards and sorcerer's, they are going through their own mana.

Clerics' mana is gone through by two-weapon and two-handed fighters that don't have the AC, the build, or the skillz to play two-weapon and two-handed fighters. This lack of mana managment - by melee - is many times as prevalent as that of casters. And ultimately, demoralizing to clerics.

Sadly many of these fighters - and I use the term loosely - have the *expectation* that the cleric will recall for mana - to enable them to 'play the way we want'. And more than a few are to the point of demanding that the cleric recall.

At least this shrinage change eliminates the need for recalls and the accompanying reentry XP penalties for clerics.

But then I thougt, When do I ever see a run on normal difficulty? What, 1 in 5, 1 in 10. So looks like clerics will continue to have plenty of opportunities to be demoralized.

But then I thought, Hey, I could solo all the quests on normal, without xp penalty. And so could all the other clerics. And where will that leave all those so called fighters?

I mean seriously who do you play with and how do you you use your mana. Yes I do pug like crazy. I do not mind that they are adding this feature on normal, but if they were to add this feature to elite I will be disappointed. I do not want this in the raids though by the way. The new raid sounds like it will be pretty expansive and probably have alot of shrines - I don't want this feature in that raid....

VonBek
12-04-2007, 01:22 PM
I solo "alot". It improves my play. I at first I thought the shrine reset on normal was a pretty sad change. Then I realized, I'm soloing :D who but me cares. And, I do not have to use the shrine more than once if I do not want to.

As with "Monty Haul" loot, the die is cast. Elixirs can be plentiful, some characters will recall, bad players will still group. The best thought I've heard is that it may help new players catch a break. I'm all for new players - help a new player learn the ropes, to group effectively, and shrine resets become a moot point.

Now, If only I could learn some social skilzz...heh

maddong
12-04-2007, 01:55 PM
How are the monsters going to know what the save DC of a spell you cast? And why in the world would it affect whether or not they think they should kill you first?
I think in an RP world the person may be able to tell a difference between a blown off save on a 2 and a uber hard resist being charmed of 30. "The fight of their life," resisting it.

STROBE
12-04-2007, 02:07 PM
Only if YOU let them...... If a melee cannot handle the damage, let em die, put em in your pocket and solo the rest of the quest.

...that clerics solo the rest of a quest.

Sir, if I could have solo'ed a lvl 10 thru lvl 14 quest, on elite, without any xp penalty for recalls, I would not have had any melee along to begin with.

I don't believe your remedy is going to be feasible for the vast majority of clerics. Even if it's working for you. But I know that you and a few other responders are just very exceptional.

STROBE
12-04-2007, 02:18 PM
Quite the opposite.. I pug quite a bit..... I find my Clerical style improves peoples play.

It improves their choice of a cleric for the next quest?

Impaqt
12-04-2007, 02:23 PM
...that clerics solo the rest of a quest.

Sir, if I could have solo'ed a lvl 10 thru lvl 14 quest, on elite, without any xp penalty for recalls, I would not have had any melee along to begin with.

I don't believe your remedy is going to be feasible for the vast majority of clerics. Even if it's working for you. But I know that you and a few other responders are just very exceptional.

My Remedy isnt feesable for clerics that feel they are there to heal. THats true....

Blade Barrier is a Rediculously powerfull Spell. No One is Immune. Learn to use that spell and a Cleric can solo as much as a Sorc.

It really comes down to learning to play into your characters strengths, and not letting other people dictate how you play.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 02:25 PM
No One is Immune [to blade barrier].

Well, evasion sure helps.

Impaqt
12-04-2007, 02:35 PM
Well, evasion sure helps.
Nice thing about Evasion capable mobs.... They generally have a Poor Fort or Will save.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 02:42 PM
Nice thing about Evasion capable mobs.... They generally have a Poor Fort and Will save.

Fixed. ;) :D

rfachini
12-04-2007, 02:52 PM
While it's not in the release notes a fix did already go into Mod 6.

Thank you Phax!! :)

Kerr
12-04-2007, 02:57 PM
Not in DDO. All plate mail weighs the same regardless of whether it is being worn by a human or a halfling.

But we weren't talking about DDO? We were discussing the sizing differences in PnP that makes small weapons and armor weigh less and small weapons do less damage.

Impaqt
12-04-2007, 03:08 PM
But we weren't talking about DDO? We were discussing the sizing differences in PnP that makes small weapons and armor weigh less and small weapons do less damage.

There were some comparisons between the 2, but I was, and I beleive spookydodger was also, speaking about the game..... This is the WDA post for the game after all.....

Boneyard
12-04-2007, 08:04 PM
All I'm saying is...a halfling ranger gets a SIZE advantage over a human anything? Ram's might shouldn't be put in until size is addressed. It's not like rangers are underpowered and need a boost in DPS. Or if they are going to put it in, how about enlarge? It's already in the game, the duergar in BAM cast it.

-J

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 08:55 PM
It's already in the game, the duergar in BAM cast it.

No it's not.

They've already addressed this. Duergar fake it.

The spell, for PCs, would have other, significant considerations, such as potential clipping problems and figuring out what to do where you have to fit through a smaller space.

CrazySamaritan
12-04-2007, 09:17 PM
Ram's Might is simply providing a bonus to strength which stacks with Enhancement bonuses.
It could be called a zooboomafoo bonus for how relevant it is.



If you don't like the idea of sizing bonuses, call them Zooboomafoo bonuses.

gpk
12-04-2007, 09:25 PM
Ram's Might is simply providing a bonus to strength which stacks with Enhancement bonuses.
It could be called a zooboomafoo bonus for how relevant it is.
If you don't like the idea of sizing bonuses, call them Zooboomafoo bonuses.

From the description, its +2 Str AND an addition +2 damage. So for str based melee it's +1 attack, +3 damage.

CrazySamaritan
12-04-2007, 09:32 PM
yep.

Perceval418
12-05-2007, 12:02 AM
Yeah, from an XP/hour perspective waiting for a shrine to reset could well be worse than recalling and taking the 20% penalty.

Yep. Noobs being like "gotta wait for the shrine to reset" = me just leaving quests the second that happens. Between Potions, Wands (the massive number of self sufficient builds out there) and healing classes (rangers, paladins, clerics and bards) i see no reason for this to be implemented except in the most lowbie of quests with a group of new players.

Emili
12-05-2007, 05:45 AM
Yep. Noobs being like "gotta wait for the shrine to reset" = me just leaving quests the second that happens. Between Potions, Wands (the massive number of self sufficient builds out there) and healing classes (rangers, paladins, clerics and bards) i see no reason for this to be implemented except in the most lowbie of quests with a group of new players.

There are very few quests where a good caster does not still have mana when they reach the shrine... the sorcerors and high mana spec'd wizards who even solo some of the 13th level quests on elite have no problem with mana either... I don't know what game others are playing but seems to me only clerics, bards and a few of the other spell casting classes have mana management problems for solo or groups ... the full arcanes do not.

Mercules
12-05-2007, 08:41 AM
Yep. Noobs being like "gotta wait for the shrine to reset" = me just leaving quests the second that happens. Between Potions, Wands (the massive number of self sufficient builds out there) and healing classes (rangers, paladins, clerics and bards) i see no reason for this to be implemented except in the most lowbie of quests with a group of new players.

Solution, stick to your "experienced" groups then. This is a huge benefit for new players who don't have the experience or plat to play as you mentioned. Grab a group of 4 people. Start on a new server and see how long it is until you are "self sufficient" then realize it is easier for you because you know the game inside and out. I can do it fairly well, as can a lot of the people who play Perma-death or on multiple servers, but it is still not simple or straightforward enough for any "noob" to do it.

Cowdenicus
12-05-2007, 09:31 AM
Solution, stick to your "experienced" groups then. This is a huge benefit for new players who don't have the experience or plat to play as you mentioned. Grab a group of 4 people. Start on a new server and see how long it is until you are "self sufficient" then realize it is easier for you because you know the game inside and out. I can do it fairly well, as can a lot of the people who play Perma-death or on multiple servers, but it is still not simple or straightforward enough for any "noob" to do it.

QFT

Mad_Bombardier
12-05-2007, 09:50 AM
No it's not.

They've already addressed this. Duergar fake it.Even with the "faked" animation, they still get the bonuses. ;) Though I do see the "faked" animation being a problem if cast on WF. We already hit our heads and cameras all over the dungeons.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 09:59 AM
Even with the "faked" animation, they still get the bonuses. ;) Though I do see the "faked" animation being a problem if cast on WF. We already hit our heads and cameras all over the dungeons.

Yeah, and I've asked that they give us at least a "bonus-only" version of Enlarge Person.

And it wouldn't be a problem with WF since you can't cast it on them anyway. ;)

Lorien_the_First_One
12-05-2007, 10:16 AM
Yeah, and I've asked that they give us at least a "bonus-only" version of Enlarge Person.

And it wouldn't be a problem with WF since you can't cast it on them anyway. ;)

I thought WF counted as "persons" for the purposes of spells?

GeneralDiomedes
12-05-2007, 10:20 AM
No it's not.

They've already addressed this. Duergar fake it.


I suspect its hard coded into their character animation.

Laith
12-05-2007, 10:22 AM
I thought WF counted as "persons" for the purposes of spells?nope, they're not of the "humanoid" type.

MysticTheurge
12-05-2007, 10:29 AM
nope, they're not of the "humanoid" type.

Which is handy when you're resisting Hold Person, but not so handy when you're immune to Enlarge Person.

liamfrancais
12-05-2007, 02:51 PM
Wow there are alot of pages here. I have a question and dont have the time to read all the posts so here goes. Will additional content be added to the desert in order to make it worth putting a banker out there or is this just so you can store your multiple of phalacries easily.

Moragon
12-07-2007, 12:37 PM
I think I have to agree with Kerr here. I realize you'd have to wait for reset, but the need to use or even learn spell point management is out the door. What precident does this set, especially for new players?

Sure you COULD take forever to complete normal quests without too much concern over spell point management, but there are at least two reasons not to:


The amount of time spent waiting for resets when you could be moving on to other quests.
If you don't practice conservation at Normal, you will be in for a rude surprise on Hard or Elite (although I'm sure many will learn this lesson the hard way).


For a newbie just getting started or sometimes for an experienced group tackling a new quest for the first time, being able to reuse shrines may actually increase the chance that the quest can be completed the first time without having to start all over again from the beginning (wish this had been available first time I tried Hiding in Plain Sight after it was introduced).

Stormanne
12-08-2007, 01:33 PM
I see it now, all us old fogies will be telling the newbies "how it used to be." Like when you could only use the resurrection shrines once per quest. The rest shrines once per quest. Having to do the Goodblade quests and Lowroad to get into the Harbor proper. Having the multiple difficulties on the five level one quests in Philosophers Corner. Ahh, the good old days.....

CrazySamaritan
12-08-2007, 04:34 PM
I see it now, all us old fogies will be telling the newbies "how it used to be." Like when you could only use the resurrection shrines once per quest. The rest shrines once per quest. Having to do the Goodblade quests and Lowroad to get into the Harbor proper. Having the multiple difficulties on the five level one quests in Philosophers Corner. Ahh, the good old days.....

Having to pull tricks to get Steal the Healing Elixer on elite, and not having solo as an option. /wheeze

Hvymetal
12-09-2007, 01:55 AM
Having to pull tricks to get Steal the Healing Elixer on elite, and not having solo as an option. /wheeze

Using the acid trap to finish "Ancient Daggers" on elite while getting the conq bonus.....

SWardCo
12-09-2007, 12:17 PM
I'm not sure I'm crazy about this. On Solo, sure, landscape ones, okay, but in Normal difficulty quests? It practically eliminates the need for mana management and makes every quest soloable by a single caster.

So you feel that it is ok for a tank to solo it but not for a mage? This is a much needed tool for those who aren't hack and slash and since it is only on normal level it isn't so bad. I can solo most things with a fighter only 1 level below me, but i have to have 5 levels below me for some with a wizard.

degroos
12-09-2007, 07:52 PM
The new swimming spell is cool. I hope this means development is going to make swim a real skill. Currently there are so many water breathing items that swim is a wasted skill. I hope we will se more swimming and a reduction in water breathing drops. So people will pay attention to the skill and people just dont go through the motions when swimming. Currently there is no real danger when swimming and it seems pointless to have it in the game.