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Andah
12-02-2007, 01:55 AM
So, I'm making this post because I've found a rather frustrating inconsistency in the power of dwarf fighters, versus fighters of other races, mostly elves. In my opinion, elves should be equals at least to dwarves in martial skills by the setting of Eberron, however the sets of abilities do not accurately represent this. Dwarf Enhancements are (for the most part) Just plain better than their elven equivalents. Don't believe me, or don't feel I'm fairly accounting for all factors? Take a look:

Firstly, Dwarven Axe Damage and Dwarven Axe Attack are grossly overpowered enhancements. Where an elf gets bonus attack and damage to a longsword and rapier, a dwarf gets battleaxe, throwing axe, greataxe, handaxe and DWARVEN AXE. Both enhancements are 2 points at first rank and 4 at second rank. How are they the same number of points when a dwarf gets almost three times the weapons where the damage is applicable, especially when one such weapon does a d10 of damage, meaning even if it were that ONE weapon, which they gain as a free proficiency, it should still be a more expensive enhancement as d10+2 is better than d8+2 without a shadow of a doubt.

Secondly, Dwarven Armored Mastery. Why does it even exist? Dwarves aren't meant to be as agile a race as elves, why are they more adept at moving in armor? It should for NO reason stack with Fighter Armor Mastery and I have been told that it does. This means that no matter what, a race of slower moving, broader creatures will always be harder to hit in melee. And it means that more characters will have an absurdly high AC. +5 Mithril for an elf only works up to a 22 Dexterity, why should it work up to a 26 for a Dwarf? If it has to be in the game, it should cost DOUBLE the points it does now because it stacks with the pre-existing enhancement Fighter's Armor Mastery. Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural) That's not that absurd by it's self, but when you take the +5 Mithril Tower Shield out of the picture, and adjust to keep the highest AC possible, Dwarves will have a 51 AC as well, but since an elf has to use a tower shield to attain that, the dwarf will have 2 better to-hit. Why should it be more rewarding for a dwarf to be dexterous than an elf?

Next, Dwarven Spell Defense. The most comparable elven enhancement is Elven Enchantment Resistance. This doesn't take the lengthy explaination of the other enhancements. +1 to all saves versus spells is better than +1 to all saves versus enchantment spells. Why do they cost the same number of action points?

And lastly, Dwarven Tactics. Another enhancement that stacks with the fighter ability that does the same. This means all Dwarf DC's will be up to 3 higher than their elf counter-parts. Three enhancements wrapped into one should not cost 2 points per rank. It's three enhancements and should cost three, if it should even be included at all.

Fighters have several roles in a party, and to summarize the effects of the enhancements I've given, I'll give reasons for the clear dwarven superiority in each.

DPS:
When dual-weilding weapons Dwarves have better to-hits and to-damage rolls than elves, as their Axe Attack and Axe Damage can potentially work for both main-hand and off-hand attacks (Without incurring a penalty). Weapon Focus: Slashing applies to both axes, as does Improved Critical and Weapon Specialization. For elves to reach a similiar bonus, they'll have to pull a named rapier out of a VERY difficult quest, and they'll have to give up four die-sides of damage (d6 on rapier, versus d10 on dwarven axe) unless the plan on spending double the feats on both Slashing and Piercing weapon specialization, focus and critical, even still they'll be shorted two die-faces of damage (D8 on a longsword versus D10 on a dwarven axe).

Two-handed fighters cannot even be compared, a dwarf with the same set of feats will gain +2 higher damage and to-hit while using a greataxe, and will be compensated for the lack of shield better by a higher armor class.

Shield-using fighters will obviously be stunted, as the dwarven one-hander will be using a weapon that's simply better. D8+2 versus D10+2 doesn't take much more explaination than that. Furthermore, as was stated earlier, a dwarf using a setup with a 51 AC will not need a Tower shield to attain it, so they will have either a +2 better to-hit than the elf, or +1 better AC than the elf, depending on the setup that the dwarf chooses.

Technical:
Dwarf fighters hands down have better trip, stun and sunder DC's with their enhancements. In addition, the best vertigo item in the game, Serrulae, is an axe, meaning that dwarves will gain an additional +2 to-hit and +2 to-damage over elves using a manuver heavy build as well.

Tanking:
Dwarves have better saving throws, better damage per second, more HP and a higher potential AC, making them clearly superior tanks. In addition they can gain shield mastery, granting them additional damage reduction over an elf, and making them once again superior tanks.

Further than that, I'd like to avoid comparing enhancements, as the rest that the races get are on-par. Elves make better Wizards, whereas Dwarves make better clerics. This is fine, even if a bit frustrating since my first toon is an elf cleric. However, elven search and the like make poor substitutes for the dwarf combat enhancements, which make a more effective character rather than just allowing a rogue to place more skill points into haggle, jump, or some other realatively useless skill.

I'd really like to be able to not feel like I wasted my time getting an elf fighter up to 14th level, but I'm starting to feel as though I did, and I've begun to wonder why anyone bothers making any fighter that ISN'T a dwarf.

Impaqt
12-02-2007, 02:22 AM
Havnt you figured it out by now? All the Devs Play Dwarves......

I dont mind.. I take advantage of all they offer.... But I do have a spiffy elf now I like a lot too....

Andah
12-02-2007, 02:32 AM
I mind. If I liked elves being treated unfairly I'd still be playing WoW :P

ThrasherGT
12-02-2007, 02:34 AM
and a question.........

Now, I understand That parts of this game can be frustrating. However, when the goals are only expressed in terms of superlatives,
(I.E. max AC, to-hit numbers, saving throw numbers) I believe We begin to lose sight of the enjoyment that DDO can provide.
I personally have never sought out "the perfect build" for any of my characters, and while some will denounce this on principle, I
believe that the inherant "flaws" of my characters make them unique. To me, building an "uber" character following someone else's template would, quite frankly, be boring because there's no mystery about the way to play such a character. The time it takes me to find out what works and what doesn't work while I level a toon, to Me, is a large part of the enjoyment I get out of DDO. The fact that none of My toons are what some would call "uber", combined with the fact that I can "keep up" with just about anybody in any quest, gives Me much enjoyment.

I guess the point of this is:

If You enjoy playing Your Elf (or insert race/ class here), Why does it matter what the other races/ classes get?
You obviously put alot of thought and work into this post, but in my opinion, every race/ class has its strengths and weaknesses.....
Can't we all just get along?

Mhykke
12-02-2007, 02:44 AM
I may be wrong, but wasn't there some number crunching done a while back that showed a max dps elf w/ a rapier and all the enhancements was comparable to a max dps khopesh user (and therefore comparable, if not superior in DPS, to a dwarf w/ the axe enhancements?)

I'm too lazy to run through the numbers now, too busy studying for law finals....

Andah
12-02-2007, 02:45 AM
and a question.........

Now, I understand That parts of this game can be frustrating. However, when the goals are only expressed in terms of superlatives,
(I.E. max AC, to-hit numbers, saving throw numbers) I believe We begin to lose sight of the enjoyment that DDO can provide.
I personally have never sought out "the perfect build" for any of my characters, and while some will denounce this on principle, I
believe that the inherant "flaws" of my characters make them unique. To me, building an "uber" character following someone else's template would, quite frankly, be boring because there's no mystery about the way to play such a character. The time it takes me to find out what works and what doesn't work while I level a toon, to Me, is a large part of the enjoyment I get out of DDO. The fact that none of My toons are what some would call "uber", combined with the fact that I can "keep up" with just about anybody in any quest, gives Me much enjoyment.

I guess the point of this is:

If You enjoy playing Your Elf (or insert race/ class here), Why does it matter what the other races/ classes get?
You obviously put alot of thought and work into this post, but in my opinion, every race/ class has its strengths and weaknesses.....
Can't we all just get along?

It matters to me because the game is imbalanced. It's less fun when you're not pulling your own weight compared to another character, especially one of the same class and the same build just because they're of another race. I chose to play an elf because I like elves.

What we're talking about here is not strengths and weaknesses that are equal. We're talking about one race that is hands-down superior to the other, something that comes particularly appearant in the enhancements I offered that were complete parrallels, except dwarves got it better. It's not fun playing a game when there's another race that can do anything you can do (except being a wizard), but do it better.

I put alot of thought into my character, and that's why I care that she plays the way I'd like her to in comparison to other players. A good deal of my enjoyment of the game comes from roleplaying and enjoying the feel of my character, but as this is a computer RPG and not a MUX or a PnP group, so alot of the enjoyment I glean from DDO also comes from advancing my character and making her more powerful. That becomes severely LESS fun if there's a level of advancement in power I simply can't attain because I'd rather not play a character that's short, fat and hairy.

TreknaQudane
12-02-2007, 02:48 AM
Um... A few things on my thought..

Weapon Enhancements:

Yep, Dwarves get them to all Axe's in game. That's kind of strong I'll give you that, but thats also only slashing weapons.

Elves gain it for Longswords/Rapiers ... or Longbows/Shortbows. Going the Longsword/Rapier route will only work for two weapon types true, but two weapons of different types lending themselves to a more versatile character base also worth note, if using anything that happens on crit, it will happen more for the elf using their racial weaponry than for a dwarf. I notice you skipped over the Elven range.. while a tank may not use it, you need take it into consideration.

As for the Dwarven Armor Mastery... Being able to move better in your armor is not the same thing as being more dexterous. DAM represents the fact that dwarves are NOT dexterous but know how to use their armor better than most races. Elves on the other hand are more dexterous, a fact that inclines them to not needing heavier armor in general. Granted, there will be a few that use it, but those ones are likely to have fighter levels and access to the enhancement.

As for Spell Defense, I agree, its a bit over powering. Though it is funny watching that 'uber' save dwarf eat a trap because they are down 5 on saves to that compared to a spell.

anyway... my summary...

There is a reason, even before ddo came out, for the stereotypical rough and tumble dwarven fighter and the lithe elven swordsman, the classes/combinations are not made to be equal. They are just different approaches to a problem that can have different solutions.

Andah
12-02-2007, 03:23 AM
I may be wrong, but wasn't there some number crunching done a while back that showed a max dps elf w/ a rapier and all the enhancements was comparable to a max dps khopesh user (and therefore comparable, if not superior in DPS, to a dwarf w/ the axe enhancements?)

I'm too lazy to run through the numbers now, too busy studying for law finals....

Out of 20 shots, needing an 8 to hit, an elf using a rapier will do on average 79 damage
Out of 20 shots, needing a 10 to hit, an human using a kopesh will do on average 54 damage
Out of 20 shots, needing an 8 to hit, a dwarf, using a waraxe will do on average 112.5 damage

Sounds fair, doesn't it? Dwarves do more than double what humans can with all applicable feats.


Um... A few things on my thought..

Weapon Enhancements:

Yep, Dwarves get them to all Axe's in game. That's kind of strong I'll give you that, but thats also only slashing weapons.

Elves gain it for Longswords/Rapiers ... or Longbows/Shortbows. Going the Longsword/Rapier route will only work for two weapon types true, but two weapons of different types lending themselves to a more versatile character base also worth note, if using anything that happens on crit, it will happen more for the elf using their racial weaponry than for a dwarf. I notice you skipped over the Elven range.. while a tank may not use it, you need take it into consideration.

As for the Dwarven Armor Mastery... Being able to move better in your armor is not the same thing as being more dexterous. DAM represents the fact that dwarves are NOT dexterous but know how to use their armor better than most races. Elves on the other hand are more dexterous, a fact that inclines them to not needing heavier armor in general. Granted, there will be a few that use it, but those ones are likely to have fighter levels and access to the enhancement.

As for Spell Defense, I agree, its a bit over powering. Though it is funny watching that 'uber' save dwarf eat a trap because they are down 5 on saves to that compared to a spell.

anyway... my summary...

There is a reason, even before ddo came out, for the stereotypical rough and tumble dwarven fighter and the lithe elven swordsman, the classes/combinations are not made to be equal. They are just different approaches to a problem that can have different solutions.

Elves get slashing and piercing. Slashing is reduced by NOTHING that piercing isn't also reduced by. While budgeoning is the most effective in the game, slashing is a close second. They also must spend double the points to get the ability with both ranged and melee weapons, whereas dwarves get throwing axes in their list of axe damage/attack.

No, it's not dexterous, but the way the game is presently balanced encourages dwarf players to make uncharacteristically dexterous dwarves to take advantage of the fact that they can have the highest AC in the game. Why should a dwarf fighter move better in armor than an elven one fluff-wise or in the game-balance sense? For dwarves to even really need to learn to move fast in heavy armor, they'd need to be as dexterous as elves to begin with. No, it's a silly enhancement. It should overlap with Fighter's Armor Mastery. End of story.

Funny though it might be, it's still an imbalanced enhancement.

In PnP the elf will generally have a higher AC, and fewer HP. That's the way it's meant to be balanced, not the dwarf gets higher AC and more HP and more damage. What would your solution to the problem be? Make an elf fighter with a +10 dex mod, that wears padded and has two ranks in armor mastery and fights sword and board? That's a 44 AC.

honkuimushi
12-02-2007, 06:44 AM
Dwarves are definately strong, no one will argue with that. But when you compare all the races, elves aren't that bad off. Pity the poor humans. One thing you have to keep in mind are PnP favored classes. Many of the enhancements draw on this as a theme. Dwarves have Fighter as their favored class; elves have Wizard. That's why elves get Elven Arcana and the reduced spell failure enhancements. If a better way to make a gish ever is developed, I expect elves and warforged to be favored. One option in Eberron is for Valenar elves to have ranger as a favored class, so i woould like to see a few more ranger--like enhancements.

I will concede that either the dwarven resistance shoube be made a litthe more expensive or the elven resistance should be made a little cheaper. But most of the other enhancements have a pretty good basis. First dwarven armor matery-- dwarves are not as slowed by heavy armor as other races, therefore they are more dextrous in heavy armor in PnP. Also if you look in Races of Stone, there are exotic dwarven armors and a feat called armor optimization that reduces the armor penalty and increases the AC bonus. So I'm fine with armor mastery, especially since most dwarves won't have the dex to use all of it and the later stages are expensive.

There are 2 races that have fighter as a favored class in DDO-- Dwarves and Warforged. Both get the same enhancement to activated combat feats. I'm fine with that. In fact, most people who use those feats extensively will have several fighter levels anyway.


Nw the weapon enhancements. First, remember that elves gain rapier, longsword, longbow and short bow as simple weapons. Axes are martial weapons, so pure Clerics, Rogues and Casters suffer a non-proficiency penalty with them. Also Dwarven Axe requires martial weapon proficiency. But axes have always been associated with dwarves. Hammers are too, but they don't get anything for them. They also lack ranged options. They get a bonus to throwing axes, but they are generally weaker than a bow or crossbow.

Elves can use their weapon enhancemets to great effect. The +2 to attack cancels out the penalty for using a rapier in the off hand and gives you a better crit on your off hand weapon. If Oversized TWF is ever added, elves will be increadably good at TWF. The longsword enhancements are also good for strength based TWF Rangers. The dwarven axe does more damage, but an elf has a much better chance of meeting the dex requirements or filling out the dex bonus for light armor. For a sword and boarder, the longsword enhancements give you a weapon better than the bastard sword and maybe a khopesh without needing the Exotic or even the Martial Weapon Proficiencies. I would however, like to see a scimitar enhancement for Valenar.

Finally you have the ranged enhancements. Honestly ranged combat has some problems, but it looks like it's getting a little love soon. A longbow is good for rogues and low level casters that want to conserve mana. For a ranged Rangers, elves are probably the best choice. You get the bow enhancements and the dex boost. Also don't look just at dwarves, what do the other races get for weapon enhancements. Drow get rapiers, short swords and shuriken. Halflings get thrown weapons and crossbows. Humans get nothing. Warforged get nothing. The elves look okay to me.

Honestly, going by flavor you should see more heavily armored dwarven fighters(think dwarven defender) while elves should favor more dextrous, finesse fighters. I wouldn't mind seeing some enhancements like armor mastery if it's limited to light armor. Maybe a bonus to dodge if the elf is unarmored. But first, some of the other races need some love. The elves are in pretty good shape.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 08:51 AM
Yep. Dwarves got some issues.

They seem relatively easy to fix, to me. Though no one (who plays a dwarf) is going to like them.

Dwarven Axe Enhancements --> Change to only affect Dwarven Axes.

Dwarven Armor Mastery --> Change to Dwarven Armored Agility. (i.e. Reduce Armor Check Penalty instead of increase Max Dex)

Dwarven Spell Defense --> Change like Halfling Luck to be three lines, one for each save.

Dwarven Tactics --> Actually, I don't have a huge problem with this one. It seems to fit alright. But if dwarves still seem overpowered after the above, you could make this three lines, like they are for fighters.

Kerrn_Siff
12-02-2007, 09:08 AM
why does anything need to be fair?

Kire
12-02-2007, 09:17 AM
Heh funny thing is when i played PnP for a month or two one of the players was a dwarf and i was an elf. He wouldn't talk to me directly while we were playing. why?

Because Dorfs hate elfs! (heh ok MT help me if im wrong)

~Kire

honkuimushi
12-02-2007, 09:37 AM
My first choice would be to improve the choices for the other races before we go removing enhancements for dwarves. Halflings and especially humans need some love. If we have to weaken dwarves, I would prefer to reduce the maximum ranks or tweak the AP cost rather than removing whole lines. Or limiting the the enhancement to dwarven axes. That would leave it much weaker than the elven line, especially because you need martial weapon profociency to use any axe without penalty. Elves get all their weapons as simple weapons.

Dwarves don't need any thing added right now, but I would like to see a few more for the elves like the ones I mentioned above. I would especially like to see more enhancements that differentialte Valenar and and Aerenal elves. Maybe even make them seperate races. Drow are also pretty good.

Warforged are pretty good, but I would like to see a few changes to Healer's Friend. It used to go up to about 40 or 50%. But now it's 15% for 2 AP, 20% for 4AP, and 25% for 6(?!) AP. For those costs and level requirements(1, 5, 9), I would at least like to see the interval increased to 10%. 6 AP for 5%? Thats a measly 5 extra hp off of a 100 hp Heal. That's less than a Repair light potion for 1.5 levels worth of APs. A wizard can get a 30% bonus to repair and force spells at level 7 for 3 APs. I realize that warforged have been beefed up, but it just seems like a good line is being wasted. (Didn't mean to get off on a tangent.)

It's humans and halflings that really need a boost. Don't bring dwarves down, bring the other races up.
As enhancements are added, the limit on the number of APs we have will enforce a balance better than anything else we can devise.

Hvymetal
12-02-2007, 09:37 AM
why does anything need to be fair?
The counterpoint of course would be why shouldn't it?

Vorn
12-02-2007, 10:01 AM
I]
Dwarven Armor Mastery --> Change to Dwarven Armored Agility. (i.e. Reduce Armor Check Penalty instead of increase Max Dex)


Or, include Dwarven Armored Agility and make it so Dwarven Armor Mastery is exclusive with Fighter Armor Mastery.

REKCEDER
12-02-2007, 10:31 AM
The counterpoint of course would be why shouldn't it?

It is fair...you too, my friend, can play a dwarf. Fair just means we all have access to the same stuff. You, however, have chosen an elf for flavor reasons and now seek to have a "dwarf in disguise". If all of the options are exactly equal we will end up with one look, one template and only a single character class. The variations in choices are part of what makes the game fun. Please don't seek to change that. Just go back and play a Dwarf.

That said, I've played both. It's the player behind the toon that makes 'em "uber".
:D

KoboldKiller
12-02-2007, 11:24 AM
I have a Elf pure Pali. He has no problem keeping up with the Dwarves as I have all the Longsword enhancements. While there are some balance issues in this game it should not be an issue. There are balance issues in all games including PnP. That is the whole point. The idea is to create something you enjoy. If you are getting to wrapped up with the haves and have nots then you might be taking things to seriously. I see too much emphasis on what that race can do and what this race can't. Too much emphasis on kill counts. Play the game to have fun. If you want to play an Elf fighter than do so. If the Dwarf makes a better fighter due to enhancements so what? The whole idea is this, did the quest get completed, did you have fun and did you contribute to the success, if so then who cares what the Dwarf did? Anyway this is just MHO take it for what you want, I for one love my Pali and will continue to us him to games end.

parvo
12-02-2007, 11:36 AM
So, I'm making this post because I've found a rather frustrating inconsistency in the power of dwarf fighters, versus fighters of other races, mostly elves. In my opinion, elves should be equals at least to dwarves in martial skills by the setting of Eberron, however the sets of abilities do not accurately represent this. Dwarf Enhancements are (for the most part) Just plain better than their elven equivalents. Don't believe me, or don't feel I'm fairly accounting for all factors? Take a look:

Firstly, Dwarven Axe Damage and Dwarven Axe Attack are grossly overpowered enhancements. Where an elf gets bonus attack and damage to a longsword and rapier, a dwarf gets battleaxe, throwing axe, greataxe, handaxe and DWARVEN AXE. Both enhancements are 2 points at first rank and 4 at second rank. How are they the same number of points when a dwarf gets almost three times the weapons where the damage is applicable, especially when one such weapon does a d10 of damage, meaning even if it were that ONE weapon, which they gain as a free proficiency, it should still be a more expensive enhancement as d10+2 is better than d8+2 without a shadow of a doubt.

Secondly, Dwarven Armored Mastery. Why does it even exist? Dwarves aren't meant to be as agile a race as elves, why are they more adept at moving in armor? It should for NO reason stack with Fighter Armor Mastery and I have been told that it does. This means that no matter what, a race of slower moving, broader creatures will always be harder to hit in melee. And it means that more characters will have an absurdly high AC. +5 Mithril for an elf only works up to a 22 Dexterity, why should it work up to a 26 for a Dwarf? If it has to be in the game, it should cost DOUBLE the points it does now because it stacks with the pre-existing enhancement Fighter's Armor Mastery. Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural) That's not that absurd by it's self, but when you take the +5 Mithril Tower Shield out of the picture, and adjust to keep the highest AC possible, Dwarves will have a 51 AC as well, but since an elf has to use a tower shield to attain that, the dwarf will have 2 better to-hit. Why should it be more rewarding for a dwarf to be dexterous than an elf?

Next, Dwarven Spell Defense. The most comparable elven enhancement is Elven Enchantment Resistance. This doesn't take the lengthy explaination of the other enhancements. +1 to all saves versus spells is better than +1 to all saves versus enchantment spells. Why do they cost the same number of action points?

And lastly, Dwarven Tactics. Another enhancement that stacks with the fighter ability that does the same. This means all Dwarf DC's will be up to 3 higher than their elf counter-parts. Three enhancements wrapped into one should not cost 2 points per rank. It's three enhancements and should cost three, if it should even be included at all.

Fighters have several roles in a party, and to summarize the effects of the enhancements I've given, I'll give reasons for the clear dwarven superiority in each.

DPS:
When dual-weilding weapons Dwarves have better to-hits and to-damage rolls than elves, as their Axe Attack and Axe Damage can potentially work for both main-hand and off-hand attacks (Without incurring a penalty). Weapon Focus: Slashing applies to both axes, as does Improved Critical and Weapon Specialization. For elves to reach a similiar bonus, they'll have to pull a named rapier out of a VERY difficult quest, and they'll have to give up four die-sides of damage (d6 on rapier, versus d10 on dwarven axe) unless the plan on spending double the feats on both Slashing and Piercing weapon specialization, focus and critical, even still they'll be shorted two die-faces of damage (D8 on a longsword versus D10 on a dwarven axe).

Two-handed fighters cannot even be compared, a dwarf with the same set of feats will gain +2 higher damage and to-hit while using a greataxe, and will be compensated for the lack of shield better by a higher armor class.

Shield-using fighters will obviously be stunted, as the dwarven one-hander will be using a weapon that's simply better. D8+2 versus D10+2 doesn't take much more explaination than that. Furthermore, as was stated earlier, a dwarf using a setup with a 51 AC will not need a Tower shield to attain it, so they will have either a +2 better to-hit than the elf, or +1 better AC than the elf, depending on the setup that the dwarf chooses.

Technical:
Dwarf fighters hands down have better trip, stun and sunder DC's with their enhancements. In addition, the best vertigo item in the game, Serrulae, is an axe, meaning that dwarves will gain an additional +2 to-hit and +2 to-damage over elves using a manuver heavy build as well.

Tanking:
Dwarves have better saving throws, better damage per second, more HP and a higher potential AC, making them clearly superior tanks. In addition they can gain shield mastery, granting them additional damage reduction over an elf, and making them once again superior tanks.

Further than that, I'd like to avoid comparing enhancements, as the rest that the races get are on-par. Elves make better Wizards, whereas Dwarves make better clerics. This is fine, even if a bit frustrating since my first toon is an elf cleric. However, elven search and the like make poor substitutes for the dwarf combat enhancements, which make a more effective character rather than just allowing a rogue to place more skill points into haggle, jump, or some other realatively useless skill.

I'd really like to be able to not feel like I wasted my time getting an elf fighter up to 14th level, but I'm starting to feel as though I did, and I've begun to wonder why anyone bothers making any fighter that ISN'T a dwarf.

This is a very shortsided view of things. Elves make great Warriors. They have many advantages to use.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 11:36 AM
Because Dorfs hate elfs! (heh ok MT help me if im wrong)

Well, not quite as much in Eberron as in, say, Tolkein. But you're always free to play a dwarf who dislikes elves.


My first choice would be to improve the choices for the other races before we go removing enhancements for dwarves.

Yeah. That'd be my first choice too. But they really need to get on the ball with it.

And stop giving dwarves additional bonuses (like the Toughness change) until things are a bit more even.


Or, include Dwarven Armored Agility and make it so Dwarven Armor Mastery is exclusive with Fighter Armor Mastery.

I actually looked earlier (after posting) and dwarves do actually get Armor Agility already.

But yeah, even making it so Dwarven Armor Mastery didn't stack with Fighter's would be a nice improvement. It'd mean dwarven non-fighters (Barbarians, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Bards) could benefit from it fairly significantly, but it wouldn't allow Dwarven Fighters to go over the top with AC.

Makdar
12-02-2007, 11:54 AM
I say we nerf every class and race in the game a little. That why no one will be left feeling unjustified.

Sound good?

Raithe
12-02-2007, 12:58 PM
Yet another thread touting melee DPS as the end-all, be-all, most important criteria for a character in DDO.

Saying that dwarves make better fighters than elves, but ignoring the fact that elves make better wizards, rogues, bards, and ranged rangers is extremely simple minded.

Guess what? Drow make better sorcerors, so they win the DPS criteria hands down.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 01:05 PM
Guess what? Drow make better sorcerors, so they win the DPS criteria hands down.

Which is why people complain that this game is Dwarves and Drow Online.

Way to miss the larger point.

maddong
12-02-2007, 01:57 PM
Elves and drow are only supposed to use wounding/puncturing weapons. Otherwise play a dwarf. :)

Game balance at its best.

Raithe
12-02-2007, 02:04 PM
Way to miss the larger point.

The larger point is the one that I'm trying to get people to see. (And, btw, I'll be the first to admit that certain races are definitely misbalanced. Drow receive most of the benefits of being elf, yet at the same time get +4 to important ability scores and spell resistance.) That point being that classes aren't particularly balanced, the amount of acquired gear isn't particularly balanced, and the people you play with may be doing everything precisely wrong for your character to be effective. Out of all the unbalances in this game, a couple more points of AC and a couple more points in damage is not a priority consideration. At all.

Hvymetal
12-02-2007, 02:37 PM
It is fair...you too, my friend, can play a dwarf. Fair just means we all have access to the same stuff. You, however, have chosen an elf for flavor reasons and now seek to have a "dwarf in disguise". If all of the options are exactly equal we will end up with one look, one template and only a single character class. The variations in choices are part of what makes the game fun. Please don't seek to change that. Just go back and play a Dwarf.

That said, I've played both. It's the player behind the toon that makes 'em "uber".
:DWho said I have chosen an Elf my friend? I myself have chosen to play the true master race the Warforged....And agree the player makes the character however pairity is never a bad thing in MMO's.

Kire
12-02-2007, 02:57 PM
I say we nerf every class and race in the game a little. That why no one will be left feeling unjustified.

Sound good?

lol and we get no items but keep the mobs the same. that would be fun.

~Kire

PS im being serious lol

DasLurch
12-02-2007, 02:58 PM
Remember the slowly building outcry over Superior 2WF going on at the moment? that is because all of the 2WF strength based rangers. MOST of whom are Dwarven. Not all mind you, but a large number. There is a feat that will greatly help an Elf gain back some serious DPS that a dwarf will have a harder time coming up with. Also, elven fighters may not be the "best" suited for tanking in heavy armor, but they are still good at it. And there may come a time as the game works up towards level 20 (however slowly) where the playing field gets leveled a bit more. It's very hard to say how things will work out for the real "endgame", when we haven't even reached that yet. While you are correct at the current time and place that dwarves and warforged make the best tanks, that may change in another 4-6 levels some.

maddong
12-02-2007, 03:02 PM
There is a feat that will greatly help an Elf gain back some serious DPS that a dwarf will have a harder time coming up with.

Until they cave to the masses....

redoubt
12-02-2007, 03:33 PM
Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural)

You should probably not deal with the chattering ring and seal of the earth as they are raid loot and available to both classes. The set of gear you list is hardly the end all of AC either. (Or were you using the dodge feat and the chaos guards?)

Dwarves can get: 9 dex bonus, not just 7. But I believe that provides a conflict with the tower shield. Might be a wash there.

Elves can get 13 dex bonus, not just 6. Pick different armor. As an extreme go robes and +6 armor bracers. Still 19 from armor and dex. Same as with MFP. Instead of MFP get another hard to find item and use +7 armor bracers and be even with the dwarves at 20 from dex and armor. AND you save a bunch of AP. Oh wait... you don't want to invest that much in dex do you? You just want to prevent someone else from doing so. Gotcha. ;)

The AC numbers that are being tossed around mean very little really. Go see the 52 AC rogue thread in the rogue forum.

On a more practical note if a dwarf has the 24 dex to fill out your AC listing, how good are his STR and CON going to be? Minimum base score is 13. (To make that work you must do 3 ability increases in dex, +2 tome and +6 item.) Not very realistic. I assume you are talking STR based fighters here. You are going to want your ability increases in STR, not DEX. Same for your favor tome. Gonna start with 18 DEX on a fighter? Doubtful.

Once upon a time I made a WF fighter to talk fighter armor mastery 4 (yes 4. Tells you how long ago he was built.) Planning a fighter build to even 20 dex makes for serious compromise in the STR and CON department.

Bottom line of my ramble is: dwarven AC is not really the problem (or a problem atm).

Twerpp
12-02-2007, 03:39 PM
Is it that hard to believe that a dwarf is stronger/sturdier or more suited to melee battle than elves are? I dont understand why people cry about dwarves having such killer combat enhancements, its totally in-character.

Andah
12-02-2007, 04:32 PM
Or, include Dwarven Armored Agility and make it so Dwarven Armor Mastery is exclusive with Fighter Armor Mastery.

Myself I would say make it only apply to heavy armor. That way they won't gain the benefits of Mithral armor and their armor mastery, but as I said earlier, overlapping and not stacking with Fighter Armor Mastery is wholly acceptable.


Honestly, going by flavor you should see more heavily armored dwarven fighters(think dwarven defender) while elves should favor more dextrous, finesse fighters. I wouldn't mind seeing some enhancements like armor mastery if it's limited to light armor. Maybe a bonus to dodge if the elf is unarmored. But first, some of the other races need some love. The elves are in pretty good shape.

No, honestly going by flavor in tabletop elves should be able to attain a higher AC than dwarves. Dwarves can take more hits, elves are harder to hit. THat's called balance.


Nw the weapon enhancements. First, remember that elves gain rapier, longsword, longbow and short bow as simple weapons. Axes are martial weapons, so pure Clerics, Rogues and Casters suffer a non-proficiency penalty with them. Also Dwarven Axe requires martial weapon proficiency. But axes have always been associated with dwarves. Hammers are too, but they don't get anything for them. They also lack ranged options. They get a bonus to throwing axes, but they are generally weaker than a bow or crossbow.

So by that logic elves should only make efficient wizards, whereas dwarves make efficient clerics AND fighters with their enhancements. Dwarf favored multi-class isn't Cleric. Why should they get extra divine spell points?


Elves can use their weapon enhancemets to great effect. The +2 to attack cancels out the penalty for using a rapier in the off hand and gives you a better crit on your off hand weapon. If Oversized TWF is ever added, elves will be increadably good at TWF. The longsword enhancements are also good for strength based TWF Rangers. The dwarven axe does more damage, but an elf has a much better chance of meeting the dex requirements or filling out the dex bonus for light armor. For a sword and boarder, the longsword enhancements give you a weapon better than the bastard sword and maybe a khopesh without needing the Exotic or even the Martial Weapon Proficiencies. I would however, like to see a scimitar enhancement for Valenar.

And if a dwarf got the very same feat they'd still have a +2 to hit over the elf. That doesn't make elves any better, it just makes them equal with what dwarves are now, and only in regards to DPS.



This is a very shortsided view of things. Elves make great Warriors. They have many advantages to use.

Like what? I think it's you who's being shortsighted. When you compare the enhancements of the two Dwarves are clearly just flat-out a better race.


It is fair...you too, my friend, can play a dwarf. Fair just means we all have access to the same stuff. You, however, have chosen an elf for flavor reasons and now seek to have a "dwarf in disguise". If all of the options are exactly equal we will end up with one look, one template and only a single character class. The variations in choices are part of what makes the game fun. Please don't seek to change that. Just go back and play a Dwarf.

That said, I've played both. It's the player behind the toon that makes 'em "uber".
:D

But the same player behind a clearly better toon is more uber. Sorry. Fail. I want to actually see some advantage for playing an elven swordswoman over a brutish dwarf dressed like a garbage can. What is being done NOW is that the same 'templates' you're talking about are being created. All fighters will be dwarves, all clerics will be dwarves, all mages will be elves, all rogues will be halflings. Won't that be fun?


I have a Elf pure Pali. He has no problem keeping up with the Dwarves as I have all the Longsword enhancements. While there are some balance issues in this game it should not be an issue. There are balance issues in all games including PnP. That is the whole point. The idea is to create something you enjoy. If you are getting to wrapped up with the haves and have nots then you might be taking things to seriously. I see too much emphasis on what that race can do and what this race can't. Too much emphasis on kill counts. Play the game to have fun. If you want to play an Elf fighter than do so. If the Dwarf makes a better fighter due to enhancements so what? The whole idea is this, did the quest get completed, did you have fun and did you contribute to the success, if so then who cares what the Dwarf did? Anyway this is just MHO take it for what you want, I for one love my Pali and will continue to us him to games end.

I have no trouble keeping up with the dwarves either, but if the elf enhancement tree was as good as their's I'd be far surpassing them. I'd have alot more fun playing the game if I didn't get GIMPED for the choices I made TO have fun. I only made an elf fighter, because I enjoy elves as a race, and ASSUMED they'd be on-par with the other races. I'm now learning that only people who prefer dwarves get to have fun making powerful fighters. That's alot of 'fun' for the rest of us who don't care for dwarves isn't it?


Yet another thread touting melee DPS as the end-all, be-all, most important criteria for a character in DDO.

Saying that dwarves make better fighters than elves, but ignoring the fact that elves make better wizards, rogues, bards, and ranged rangers is extremely simple minded.

Guess what? Drow make better sorcerors, so they win the DPS criteria hands down.

Depends on the sort of rogue or bard you'd like to make. A Dwarf can have the best AC as a rogue, and also can do the best dual-weilding damage, so if you're not looking for a rogue that ONLY does skills and no combat then Dwarves are still better. My point is that elves get a negligable bonus to being rogues (Not as good as halflings), whereas Dwarves get bonuses that will help them no matter their class, in addition to making them unnecessarily powerful fighters and clerics.


The larger point is the one that I'm trying to get people to see. (And, btw, I'll be the first to admit that certain races are definitely misbalanced. Drow receive most of the benefits of being elf, yet at the same time get +4 to important ability scores and spell resistance.) That point being that classes aren't particularly balanced, the amount of acquired gear isn't particularly balanced, and the people you play with may be doing everything precisely wrong for your character to be effective. Out of all the unbalances in this game, a couple more points of AC and a couple more points in damage is not a priority consideration. At all.

Almost 50% more damage over 20 hits (More than 100% more from the best human DPS) is HARDLY 'a couple more points of damage'. 2 more points of AC means 10% less damage, 2 more points of to-hit bonus means 10% more DPS over the aforementioned bonus that's already 50% higher (or 100% against a human). For perspective... 2 more points of MDB make the difference between a 10,000 GP buyout and a 20,000,000 GP buyout on a suit of platemail. 2 more points of AC is the difference between a raid item everyone wants, and the amulet that everyone who pre-ordered gets to start with. THat's not a SMALL difference. Furthermore, we're not talking about any ONE of these imbalances, dwarves get ALL of them, not just one.


Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural)

You should probably not deal with the chattering ring and seal of the earth as they are raid loot and available to both classes. The set of gear you list is hardly the end all of AC either. (Or were you using the dodge feat and the chaos guards?)

Dwarves can get: 9 dex bonus, not just 7. But I believe that provides a conflict with the tower shield. Might be a wash there.

Elves can get 13 dex bonus, not just 6. Pick different armor. As an extreme go robes and +6 armor bracers. Still 19 from armor and dex. Same as with MFP. Instead of MFP get another hard to find item and use +7 armor bracers and be even with the dwarves at 20 from dex and armor. AND you save a bunch of AP. Oh wait... you don't want to invest that much in dex do you? You just want to prevent someone else from doing so. Gotcha. ;)

The AC numbers that are being tossed around mean very little really. Go see the 52 AC rogue thread in the rogue forum.

On a more practical note if a dwarf has the 24 dex to fill out your AC listing, how good are his STR and CON going to be? Minimum base score is 13. (To make that work you must do 3 ability increases in dex, +2 tome and +6 item.) Not very realistic. I assume you are talking STR based fighters here. You are going to want your ability increases in STR, not DEX. Same for your favor tome. Gonna start with 18 DEX on a fighter? Doubtful.

Once upon a time I made a WF fighter to talk fighter armor mastery 4 (yes 4. Tells you how long ago he was built.) Planning a fighter build to even 20 dex makes for serious compromise in the STR and CON department.

Bottom line of my ramble is: dwarven AC is not really the problem (or a problem atm).

First off you clearly missed that there are FOUR ways that dwarves are superior and not one. If you want to exclude raid loot the 2% better total AC becomes 5% better. The lower the numbers get, the more that 2 points extra means. +7 armor bracers with a shield all items and feats becomes 45. That's nowhere close to 52. Unless you multiclass into rogue, then you gimp your attack bonus even further. Also bonuses from dodge, and chattering ring won't stack. They're both DODGE bonuses. You take the +3, and since it's better your +1 goes away. Elves get a 13 dex bonus if they're NOT playing a fighter. So what you're saying is that inspite the martial nature of Eberron elves and the 'limitless combinations' system that D&D3.5 was built on, Dwarves should always be better fighters than elves. I'm sorry, I can't accept that.


Is it that hard to believe that a dwarf is stronger/sturdier or more suited to melee battle than elves are? I dont understand why people cry about dwarves having such killer combat enhancements, its totally in-character.

Sturdier, not stronger. In actual fighting it's better not to get hit at all than to get hit and suck it up. Elves should be just as good in melee, they should just fight a different style when there.

Mhykke
12-02-2007, 04:58 PM
Here's a post from a few months back, discussing rapier (w/ elf enhancements) vs. khopesh (human.) Now, it's not dwarven axe, but the thread is informative in discussing one of the highest dps one handers in game (khopesh) and comparing it to the rapier. (Ignore the arguments at the end :D)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=106842&highlight=Rapier

Twerpp
12-02-2007, 05:07 PM
This game at some times resembles a little game known as Dungeons and Dragons perhaps thats why dwarves seem to make better melee combatants. Tordek Fighter=Dwarf. Soveliss Ranger and Mialee Sorc= Elf. I believe in char creation screens it tells you that dwarves make excellent this and elves make excellent that...also there is such a thing as favored classes in D&D. You get what you get because this game is based on (but not exactly like) D&D, sorry you feel your elf melee is gimped you should have used a race with better synergy.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 05:14 PM
You get what you get because this game is based on (but not exactly like) D&D, sorry you feel your elf melee is gimped you should have used a race with better synergy.

Um, the problem is that it's the deviations from D&D that we're discussing. So you're point ("it's like that in D&D!") is not only entirely false, it's 100% inapplicable.

Raithe
12-02-2007, 05:19 PM
Depends on the sort of rogue or bard you'd like to make.

This is getting ridiculous. First, your math is off. I can tell that without even verifying it (I have no desire to verify it - when my sorceror regularly hits for 250 to 400 points of damage with scorching ray or disentigrate, the fact or falsehood that a dwarf can do 40 more points of melee damage than an elf can over 20 swings is hardly interesting.)

Second, the overgeneralized comparison of all races or classes by melee damage is precisely what I find so objectionable. If the only point of playing this game were to get the most kills in the XP window, everyone would be building warforged paladin2/sorceror12s and they would continually be trying to undermine their teammates, instead of help them. There is such a thing as a support class in this game, and the funniest thing about all of it is that those classes are: paladin, ranger, rogue, fighter, and barbarian. And maybe cleric and bard.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 05:28 PM
And maybe cleric

Only the ones who waste their SPs on "heals" instead of maximizing blade barriers and spamming destruction.

:D

Seneca_Windforge
12-02-2007, 05:46 PM
I posted some elven heritage (Aerenal and Valenar) enhancements a while back. Things like that would be good for elves. They could certainly use something so that they aren't simply inferior Drow.

Since elves don't get the stat bonuses of Drow, they should have superior enhancements to choose from. And as far as dwarves go, they are (in my opinion) particularly broken because the Toughness hit point enhancements aren't available to ANYONE with the Toughness feat, like they should be. I have a 9th level dwarven rogue with literally twice the hit points of an elven rogue of the same level, and there's not really a whole lot that the elven rogue can do to close the gap (both, have a base 12 Con adjusted by racial modifiers, I believe). That's not cool, particularly since hit points are more important than AC these days.

HeroGuild
12-02-2007, 05:48 PM
So your elf fighter can't be the end-all brute fighter you want it to be. Grow up. i can't quote numbers like alot of you die hards can but just think about the class differences. Dwarves are stocky, sturdy, and strong, and have always been rough and tumble fighters above all else. Elves are nimble, agile, cunning, and intelligent and have always had a deeper access to magic. Swarves are built o ttake a hit, elves not so much. Dwarves SHOULD rank higher as a rough and tumble fighter type. While elves excel as finesse, range and magic types. That in NO ways implies they should have the exact same DPS. You want the strength of the dwarf class but for your elf and you are crying that you don't have it.

This game is VERY balanced folks. Each class, each race has its strengths and weaknesses and when everything is said and done it's all about roleplaying and enjoying not only the skills of your character but the personality you put into it.

I agree with alot in this board. Try playing your toons becasue of the characters you wish to create...their personalities you want to roleplay...and the teamwork of your questmates, and don't get too caught up in your DPS vs their DPS. If you want the baddest hand to hand DPSer around, build a dwarf, thats what they are made for.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 05:48 PM
I posted some elven heritage (Aerenal and Valenar) enhancements a while back. Things like that would be good for elves. They could certainly use something so that they aren't simply inferior Drow.

On that topic, there are some nice enhancements for non-drow, non-dwarves in the Unofficial Prestige Class As Enhancement Compendium (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128090), if I do say so myself.

I'm always interested to hear people's feedback on whether stuff seems good, weak, overpowered, etc.

maddmatt70
12-02-2007, 05:56 PM
You forgot about dwarven toughness which is also an awesome enhancement chain for fighters (you dont have to have a high con score to get your hp close to 400 hp).

I do not agree with you regarding arcanes especially wizards as a dwarven wizard is far more surviveable the its elven counterpart with spell defense, extra con, and toughness the dwarven wizard can have over 100 hp more and have far better saves vs. spells more then its elven counterpart. An elven sorc is slightly more comparable to a dwarven sorc because of the dwarves charisma penalty, but I would be a drow over an elven sorceror hands down...

Twerpp
12-02-2007, 05:58 PM
Um, the problem is that it's the deviations from D&D that we're discussing. So you're point ("it's like that in D&D!") is not only entirely false, it's 100% inapplicable.
The same and other deviations are there for the elves benefits as well. Sure its unfortunate that Longswords arent d10 x3 crits and armor mastery is what it is. Anyway the dude just said that chattering ring doesnt stack with dodge. He needs to do his homework before cryin that the reason hes gimped is because of unfair racial enhancements. Its possible he just doesnt know what the heck hes talking about as he just demonstrated.

maddmatt70
12-02-2007, 06:11 PM
Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural)

You should probably not deal with the chattering ring and seal of the earth as they are raid loot and available to both classes. The set of gear you list is hardly the end all of AC either. (Or were you using the dodge feat and the chaos guards?)

Dwarves can get: 9 dex bonus, not just 7. But I believe that provides a conflict with the tower shield. Might be a wash there.

Elves can get 13 dex bonus, not just 6. Pick different armor. As an extreme go robes and +6 armor bracers. Still 19 from armor and dex. Same as with MFP. Instead of MFP get another hard to find item and use +7 armor bracers and be even with the dwarves at 20 from dex and armor. AND you save a bunch of AP. Oh wait... you don't want to invest that much in dex do you? You just want to prevent someone else from doing so. Gotcha. ;)

The AC numbers that are being tossed around mean very little really. Go see the 52 AC rogue thread in the rogue forum.

On a more practical note if a dwarf has the 24 dex to fill out your AC listing, how good are his STR and CON going to be? Minimum base score is 13. (To make that work you must do 3 ability increases in dex, +2 tome and +6 item.) Not very realistic. I assume you are talking STR based fighters here. You are going to want your ability increases in STR, not DEX. Same for your favor tome. Gonna start with 18 DEX on a fighter? Doubtful.

Once upon a time I made a WF fighter to talk fighter armor mastery 4 (yes 4. Tells you how long ago he was built.) Planning a fighter build to even 20 dex makes for serious compromise in the STR and CON department.

Bottom line of my ramble is: dwarven AC is not really the problem (or a problem atm).

I think what you are failing to understand - probably because you have never played a dwarf is the combination of strength, hp, ac, and saves a dwarf can have via enhancements fairly easily without sacrificing anything whereas the elf has to sacrifice one or several of those attributes. You could have a dwarf 32 pt. fighter with starting scores of 18 str, 18 dex, 10 con that can have 350 hp at end game with a 32 str, 24 dex , 18 con (assuming +2 favor tome put into str) high overall saves espcecially against spells, etc.. mithral full plate +5 with fighter and dwarven armor mastery, etc.. If you want the combat feats decrease dex or str and upgrade int, etc..

Somebody mentioned longsword/rapier for a little more dps, but the only other advantage is probably dragonmark displacement opportunites which weakens the fighter's tactic opportunities and such because of feat usage..

Andah
12-02-2007, 06:15 PM
So your elf fighter can't be the end-all brute fighter you want it to be. Grow up. i can't quote numbers like alot of you die hards can but just think about the class differences. Dwarves are stocky, sturdy, and strong, and have always been rough and tumble fighters above all else. Elves are nimble, agile, cunning, and intelligent and have always had a deeper access to magic. Swarves are built o ttake a hit, elves not so much. Dwarves SHOULD rank higher as a rough and tumble fighter type. While elves excel as finesse, range and magic types. That in NO ways implies they should have the exact same DPS. You want the strength of the dwarf class but for your elf and you are crying that you don't have it.

This game is VERY balanced folks. Each class, each race has its strengths and weaknesses and when everything is said and done it's all about roleplaying and enjoying not only the skills of your character but the personality you put into it.

I agree with alot in this board. Try playing your toons becasue of the characters you wish to create...their personalities you want to roleplay...and the teamwork of your questmates, and don't get too caught up in your DPS vs their DPS. If you want the baddest hand to hand DPSer around, build a dwarf, thats what they are made for.

As a rough and tumble fighter, I agree. They should have more HP, perhaps even do more damage, but they shouldn't outmatch elven trips, elven speed and elven dexterity all in one short package. If you can't qoute numbers, frankly you can't back any point you make, so your post is hardly worth my time, but since you made the gross error of assuming elves are weaker, I should correct you. They get -2 con, not -2 strength. By that logic they shouldn't have DPS any lower than dwarves, which I am certain beyond a doubt that you play.


This game at some times resembles a little game known as Dungeons and Dragons perhaps thats why dwarves seem to make better melee combatants. Tordek Fighter=Dwarf. Soveliss Ranger and Mialee Sorc= Elf. I believe in char creation screens it tells you that dwarves make excellent this and elves make excellent that...also there is such a thing as favored classes in D&D. You get what you get because this game is based on (but not exactly like) D&D, sorry you feel your elf melee is gimped you should have used a race with better synergy.

Have you ever played D&D? An elf fighter is just as capable as an dwarf fighter, they're just different. Favored multiclass has nothing to do with ability, it only affects multiclassing XP penalties. If you want to make GROSS generalizations and look at the pretty little pictures in the books alone, why don't you take a look at the half-elf paladin, or in other books the elven samurai, swordsinger, fighter, dervish, tempest, psionic warrior, paladin, favored soul, or any of the dozens of other elf melee fighters in the books. Furthermore, in D&D in it's purest form, 1st edition, Elves made BETTER fighters as constitution bonuses stopped applying to hit dice at higher levels.


Here's a post from a few months back, discussing rapier (w/ elf enhancements) vs. khopesh (human.) Now, it's not dwarven axe, but the thread is informative in discussing one of the highest dps one handers in game (khopesh) and comparing it to the rapier. (Ignore the arguments at the end :D)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=106842&highlight=Rapier

Read my earlier post, please. That discusses the average damages of elves with enhancements, humans, and dwarves with enhancements. There would be even more dispairity between numbers if the foe was immune to critical hits, in which case the dwarves would do even more damage comparitively.


This is getting ridiculous. First, your math is off. I can tell that without even verifying it (I have no desire to verify it - when my sorceror regularly hits for 250 to 400 points of damage with scorching ray or disentigrate, the fact or falsehood that a dwarf can do 40 more points of melee damage than an elf can over 20 swings is hardly interesting.)

Second, the overgeneralized comparison of all races or classes by melee damage is precisely what I find so objectionable. If the only point of playing this game were to get the most kills in the XP window, everyone would be building warforged paladin2/sorceror12s and they would continually be trying to undermine their teammates, instead of help them. There is such a thing as a support class in this game, and the funniest thing about all of it is that those classes are: paladin, ranger, rogue, fighter, and barbarian. And maybe cleric and bard.

You're right, I was a bit off, but it was late, here's the numbers done up on a calculator after a full night's sleep.

Needing 10's to hit, and doing an average of 4.5 damage per hit, critting twice out of 20 hits (4 threats, 2 confirms)
Human damage from crits: 27 average (4.5x6)
Human damage from regular blows: 36 average (4.5x8)
Total human damage: 63

Needing 8's to hit and doing an average of 3.5 damage per hit (+2 for enhancements), critting 3 times out of 20 hits (5 threats, 3 confirms)
Elf damage from crits: 33 average (3.5x6+12)
Elf damage from regular blows: 44 average (3.5x8+16)
Total elf damage: 77

Needing 8's to hit and doing an average of 5.5 damage per hit (+2 for enhancements), critting 1 time out of 20 hits (2 threats, 1 confirm)
Dwarf damage from crits: 22.5 (5.5x3+6)
Dwarf damage from regular blows: 82.5 (5.5x11+22)
Total dwarf damage: 105

I didn't apply any feat bonuses to damage, only to improved crit. The feat bonuses would cancel eachother out for the most part, and would really only end up separating the human damage further from dwarf and elf. Dwarves would still deal the most.


The same and other deviations are there for the elves benefits as well. Sure its unfortunate that Longswords arent d10 x3 crits and armor mastery is what it is. Anyway the dude just said that chattering ring doesnt stack with dodge. He needs to do his homework before cryin that the reason hes gimped is because of unfair racial enhancements. Its possible he just doesnt know what the heck hes talking about as he just demonstrated.

First off SHE and second off, I was pretty sure bonuses of the same type didn't stack. If dodge or chattering ring is an exception, then fine, either way, I did my homework about the important part. Maybe you should look into tabletop D&D some more and do your homework before you decide that dwarves are somehow better fighters PnP as well and basing your arguement upon that assumption.

redoubt
12-02-2007, 06:52 PM
I think what you are failing to understand - probably because you have never played a dwarf is the combination of strength, hp, ac, and saves a dwarf can have via enhancements fairly easily without sacrificing anything whereas the elf has to sacrifice one or several of those attributes. You could have a dwarf 32 pt. fighter with starting scores of 18 str, 18 dex, 10 con that can have 350 hp at end game with a 32 str, 24 dex , 18 con (assuming +2 favor tome put into str) high overall saves espcecially against spells, etc.. mithral full plate +5 with fighter and dwarven armor mastery, etc.. If you want the combat feats decrease dex or str and upgrade int, etc..

Somebody mentioned longsword/rapier for a little more dps, but the only other advantage is probably dragonmark displacement opportunites which weakens the fighter's tactic opportunities and such because of feat usage..

Thank you for a civil reply using logic more so than emotion and flamethrowers. It is true enough I've not played a dwarf in about 18 months. I do play several drow (slightly different than other elves I know). The fact that dwarves make great fighters does not bother me personally.

I chose to speak to only 1 of 4 things the OP mentioned. That being AC. I can see that dwarves have the potential to exceed other races who choose to be fighters in the AC department. Even in your post, you show that the dwarves must sacrafice something else to do so. Be that some of their (insane) HP potential or some of their other action points. Taking 5 ability point raising enhancements is costly (I see even your example uses dwarf con 2 and fighter str 3.) My point is that going with that much DEX is going to cost the dwarf something else that would also be useful, but is no longer available. For example, the dwarf you mention can NEVER get Combat Expertise. If in the discussion of AC, 5 points is significant. (OR 9 points of AC with the enhancements if you choose to go that route.)

I will agree that some of the other races might deserve some new enhancements that plus them up a bit, but I'm not yet convinced that dwarven armor mastery is unbalancing. (In combination, it does help them be superior fighters, I will give you that.) And I do not think it should be removed from them.

Andah:
First off you clearly missed that there are FOUR ways that dwarves are superior and not one. If you want to exclude raid loot the 2% better total AC becomes 5% better. The lower the numbers get, the more that 2 points extra means. +7 armor bracers with a shield all items and feats becomes 45. That's nowhere close to 52. Unless you multiclass into rogue, then you gimp your attack bonus even further. Also bonuses from dodge, and chattering ring won't stack. They're both DODGE bonuses. You take the +3, and since it's better your +1 goes away. Elves get a 13 dex bonus if they're NOT playing a fighter. So what you're saying is that inspite the martial nature of Eberron elves and the 'limitless combinations' system that D&D3.5 was built on, Dwarves should always be better fighters than elves. I'm sorry, I can't accept that.

You did say four ways. I spoke to only one of them.

Dodge does stack. In game today, I can name items to get you to +5 dodge (+6 total). Chaos guards for 2, chattering ring for 3 and dodge feat for one more. Six points total of Dodge bonus to AC. Someone like MT may know more in his encyclopidic D&D knowledge.

I did within my own post say that what you want is not really a 13 dex bonus, since I was sure you wanted a STR based character. (Feel free to go look again.) In some ways I was yanking your chain because you are comparing min-max builds and mad about 1 point of AC by YOUR post. As I said above, in combo, I agree that dwarves tend to make better (or easier if you prefer) melee builds. What I can't accept is any more nerfs to classes and races because someone can't get exactly what they want. High dwarven AC is not a game breaking condition now. I would even guess that most do not use all the armor masteries available. If every dwarven fighter out there had figher armor master 3 AND dwarven armor mastery 3 AND wore MFP, you might make me start to think that something was wrong there. Per your example, even the dwarven fighters are stopping short of max dex bonus and just using Tower shields instead.

One thing I will give you, is that turbine could go back to having fighter armor mastery 4. That would, I think, solve your problem with dwarven AC without nerfing the short fat ones.

Also, as others have said the races get different bonuses. The racial enhancement for elves (and drow) is DEX at the expense of CON. The loss of CON to me seems a bigger issue for elven fighters than AC bonus. (But that's just me.)

Well, now I'm late. See ya. :D

Sorry, one quick edit here. I don't play PnP. I don't know those rules, but I've been able to figure out that they are DIFFERENT than DDO rules. I do play DDO however.

GeneralDiomedes
12-02-2007, 06:57 PM
There is a reason, even before ddo came out, for the stereotypical rough and tumble dwarven fighter and the lithe elven swordsman, the classes/combinations are not made to be equal.

So why did Dwarves get armor mastery and not elves then? Kind of goes against the stereotype.

Twerpp
12-02-2007, 07:25 PM
So why did Dwarves get armor mastery and not elves then? Kind of goes against the stereotype.
They dont get that but they have the dex to fill out lighter armor use finesse and shoot bows, theyre also better looking than dwarves . I believe that fits the stereotype perfectly doesnt it?

Andah
12-02-2007, 07:25 PM
So why did Dwarves get armor mastery and not elves then? Kind of goes against the stereotype.

Exactly.

jjflanigan
12-02-2007, 07:35 PM
So why did Dwarves get armor mastery and not elves then? Kind of goes against the stereotype.

Depends on the logic you use. Dwarves are more rough and tumble so they are more used to moving and fighting in heavy armor, thus they gain the ability to function more efficiently within the armor. Elves are more lithe and use their nimbleness to avoid attacks rather than worrying about wearing heavy and cumbersome armor, therefore they don't gain the ability to function more efficiently within said armor. Seems perfectly rational within the stereotypes to me.

Lithic
12-02-2007, 07:38 PM
I think the bigger question is why did they take away human versitility (a nice enhancement for rogues, but basically a <hardly gamebreaking> UMD bonus to everyone else) away, when they then decided it was ok for dwarves to get DOUBLE toughness enhancements (an extra 100 HP if you max both fighter and dwarf enhancements), +2 to hit and damage with one of the best class of weapons in the game (Not to mention the free exotic weapon feat), a truck load of resistance options and an important AC advantage over every other race.

Im sure the halfpints got screwed somewhere too, but I would never play one so I am not familiar exactly how :P

Dwarves and Drow online? More like Dwarves, dwarves, dwarves, dwarves and a few drow casters online..
DDDDDCO. Might not fit on the box.

Twerpp
12-02-2007, 07:59 PM
I think the bigger question is why did they take away human versitility (a nice enhancement for rogues, but basically a <hardly gamebreaking> UMD bonus to everyone else) away, when they then decided it was ok for dwarves to get DOUBLE toughness enhancements (an extra 100 HP if you max both fighter and dwarf enhancements), +2 to hit and damage with one of the best class of weapons in the game (Not to mention the free exotic weapon feat), a truck load of resistance options and an important AC advantage over every other race.

Im sure the halfpints got screwed somewhere too, but I would never play one so I am not familiar exactly how :P

Dwarves and Drow online? More like Dwarves, dwarves, dwarves, dwarves and a few drow casters online..
DDDDDCO. Might not fit on the box.

Dwarves dont get a free exotic weapon feat. Dwarvens are considered martial, so they only get it if they have martial. Unlike elves who get free longsword, rapier (one of the 1h best weapons in game), and bows, no matter what class they are. Elves also get a lot of other great stuff nobody is mentioning here for the sake of only presenting their boo-hoo side of the argument. Oh yeah off the top of my head +2 to enchantments to start, also with enhancement options, that's a +5 to about every will save in the game.

Sorry that elves dont favor a "better" weapon such as greataxe or dwarven axe, complain to Tolkien or Gygax I guess.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 08:19 PM
Depends on the logic you use. Dwarves are more rough and tumble so they are more used to moving and fighting in heavy armor, thus they gain the ability to function more efficiently within the armor. Elves are more lithe and use their nimbleness to avoid attacks rather than worrying about wearing heavy and cumbersome armor, therefore they don't gain the ability to function more efficiently within said armor. Seems perfectly rational within the stereotypes to me.

Clearly Dwarves and Warforged should get armor mastery that only works in heavy armor and Elves and Halflings should get armor mastery that only works in light armor.

And humans should get armor mastery that works in any armor.

Or you know, we could just leave all the races with regular Max Dex on their armor and reserve those kinds of bonuses for Classes. Or just make it so enhancements of the same type from different sources don't stack.

The biggest problem is adding more and more numbers that are only available and/or only max-able in certain character combinations. It wouldn't be such a big deal if you could get 3 extra AC by either A) being a fighter or B) being a dwarf. The problem is that you can get 6 extra AC by being a dwarven fighter.

And really, that's where you start to run up against the stereotypes. A dwarf isn't supposed to be the kind of fighter who has 22 dexterity, but his enhancements strongly encourage that. I guess it might be different if it wasn't coming from Max Dex bonus, but since it does, you urge dwarves to become dexterous-y fighters. And that doesn't seem very dwarf-ly.

Slayer918
12-02-2007, 08:24 PM
You're right, I was a bit off, but it was late, here's the numbers done up on a calculator after a full night's sleep.

Needing 10's to hit, and doing an average of 4.5 damage per hit, critting twice out of 20 hits (4 threats, 2 confirms)
Human damage from crits: 27 average (4.5x6)
Human damage from regular blows: 36 average (4.5x8)
Total human damage: 63

Needing 8's to hit and doing an average of 3.5 damage per hit (+2 for enhancements), critting 3 times out of 20 hits (5 threats, 3 confirms)
Elf damage from crits: 33 average (3.5x6+12)
Elf damage from regular blows: 44 average (3.5x8+16)
Total elf damage: 77

Needing 8's to hit and doing an average of 5.5 damage per hit (+2 for enhancements), critting 1 time out of 20 hits (2 threats, 1 confirm)
Dwarf damage from crits: 22.5 (5.5x3+6)
Dwarf damage from regular blows: 82.5 (5.5x11+22)
Total dwarf damage: 105

I didn't apply any feat bonuses to damage, only to improved crit. The feat bonuses would cancel eachother out for the most part, and would really only end up separating the human damage further from dwarf and elf. Dwarves would still deal the most.


This is D&D math... not DDO math, you HAVE to include feats, strength bonuses because that all effects weapons in direct porportion to the quality of their criticals (khopesh > rapier/scimitar/picks > axes/warhammers/longswords/bastard swords/shortswords/daggers > hammers/maces in this department)

So lets look at some fighter builds, lets say 30 str for the dwarves and elves and 32 for human khopesh (the +1 makes it so that you can hit 32 with only a +1 tome or +2 tome and base of 17, much more likely), Greater Weapon Specilization (piercing or slashing respectively), Improved Critical, fighter's confirm critical 2, lets assume a much more reasonable to DDO mob ac and a base to hit needed of 5 (3 for elf/dwarf and 4 for human for the +1 from str)

Human Khopesh:
1d8 +4 GWS +11 str +5 weapon = 1d8 +20 average of 24.5 damage a hit
17-20/x3
1-3 = 0 damage
4-16 = 318.5 damage
17-20 (x3) = 294 damage
612.5 damage over 20 swings or 30.625 damage/swing

Elf/Drow rapier:
1d6 +4 GWS +10 str +5 weapon +2 enhancement = 1d6 +21 average 24.5 damage a hit
15-20/x2
1-2 = 0 damage
3-14 = 294 damage
15-20 (x2) = 294 damage
588 damage over 20 swings or 29.4 damage/swing

Dwarf Dwarven Axe:
1d10 +4 GWS +10 str +5 weapon +2 enhancement = 1d10 +21 average 26.5 damage a hit
19-20/x3
1-2 = 0 damage
3-18 = 424 damage
19-20 (x3) = 159 damage
583 damage over 20 swings or 29.15 damage/swing

Things like seeker (bloodstone is 72 damage for khopesh, 72 damage for the rapier, but only 36 damage to the dwarven axe over 20 swings), Power Attack (135 khopesh damage, 125 rapier damage, and 115 damage for the dwarven axe), increase of strength (each +2 str is 27 khopesh damage, 25 rapier damage, and 23 dwarven axe damage), or anyother increase of Base damage (bard buffs anyone? - similar to PA numbers) push numbers up in favor of the khopesh and rapier over dwarven axe, as well as weapon effects such as banishing (only on piercing/bludgeoning), smiting, maiming, and righteousness all effect rapiers/khopeshes more then dwarven axes. . .

As far as AC goes. . . Dwarves Win by a little (as you pointed out its 1 point in full plate/tower, not a huge deal), but if you look any dex based characters

Dwarf
16 base dex +3 levels +3 enhancements (assuming ranger or rogue) +6 item +2 tome = 30 with a max of 32
Elf
18 base dex +3 levels +5 enhancements (assuming ranger or rogue) +6 item +2 tome = 34 with a max of 36

So AC for Dex based
Dwarf:
10 armor (mith breastplate)
5 base armor dex
2 daggertooth belt dex bonus
3 DAM
20 armor

for 12 + 12 = 24 APs and a +4 con (+1 or 2 from enhancements for another 2/6 aps)

Elf
6 armor (white dragon armor otherwise you forfeit bracers and thus lose 2 from chaosgaurds)
12 - 13 dex
18-19 armor again 1 or 2 points isn't going to kill anyone

12 + 6= 18 Aps and +3 con (assuming the elf has a +6 con item to the dwarfs daggertooth belt)

so essentially the dwarf gets +1-2 AC for 6 aps an item slot

With monks coming soon I could see an elf (well actually a halfling then elf) coming out with the highest AC as you don't get your wis modifier while wearing any armor (I think its any armor via 3.5 handbook but never played a monk myself)

EinarMal
12-02-2007, 08:54 PM
Toughness is the killer dwarf advantage to me, especially if you broaden your definition of combat classes to include combat oriented rogues/bards/clerics as well as rangers. The fact that you can take 1 feat (toughness) and spend 10 AP and get 66 extra hit points at level 14 is such a huge advantage.

For classes that do not have toughness attached to them, dwarfs become such a better choice because they get something like a 316 to 250 hit point advantage (26%) above and beyond for no apparent reason.

The problem I have with people who claim dwarfs should be tougher (they should be) is the fact that PnP balances this with starting stats and cheaper point buys for con. The enhancement system totally wrecks that balance giving them more hit points for toughness than you would get for the con advantage (+4 higher con = 28 hit points at level 14)

The solution is simple, make the toughness enhancement available to every class, with the prereq. of the feat. That way elf/human/halfling/drow rangers can be "tough" too simply by taking the feat and enhancements that would be available for every class.

They can even keep the special dwarf ones, but they should at least offer up the enhancements for every class to balance that out somewhat.

Andah
12-02-2007, 09:06 PM
Toughness is the killer dwarf advantage to me, especially if you broaden your definition of combat classes to include combat oriented rogues/bards/clerics as well as rangers. The fact that you can take 1 feat (toughness) and spend 10 AP and get 66 extra hit points at level 14 is such a huge advantage.

For classes that do not have toughness attached to them, dwarfs become such a better choice because they get something like a 316 to 250 hit point advantage (26&#37;) above and beyond for no apparent reason.

The problem I have with people who claim dwarfs should be tougher (they should be) is the fact that PnP balances this with starting stats and cheaper point buys for con. The enhancement system totally wrecks that balance giving them more hit points for toughness than you would get for the con advantage (+4 higher con = 28 hit points at level 14)

The solution is simple, make the toughness enhancement available to every class, with the prereq. of the feat. That way elf/human/halfling/drow rangers can be "tough" too simply by taking the feat and enhancements that would be available for every class.

They can even keep the special dwarf ones, but they should at least offer up the enhancements for every class to balance that out somewhat.

Which is really my point. They already have toughness... they don't need toughness AND DPS, AND Fighter manuvers AND AC, AND saves. They're the best race in the game right now. Honestly looking aroudn the game a bit earlier there was a HUGE majority of dwarf characters. That right there should say something about the balance, just like builds in an RTS, if everyone's started using one thing, that's probably imbalanced.

I agree, I think Dwarf Armor Mastery should ONLY work in heavy armor. That's perfectly acceptable. That encourages dwarves to be wearing adamantine armor, while elves will usually tend towards mithral... Yes, elves will end up harder to hit, but that's the way it should be. Elves can't take as many hits, but don't get hit as often, Dwarves get hit more, but are tougher. Then everything's the same but different... at least as far as defense.

For elves why not add something like "Elf Melee alacrity" to make up for the less damage per hit? Seems elfy to be swinging faster than a dwarf, doesn't it?

Or, why not break up the tactics feats altogether, give elves bonus to trip DC's, Dwarves sunder and Warforged stunning blow? Maybe give humans 'Versatile tactics' and give them a choice between the three.

Again, you come out with different, but equal, rather than 'dwarves are just better.'

Twerpp
12-02-2007, 09:25 PM
There is no "best" race in the game. There are many talented aka "uber" players who dont ever play dwarves. Dwarves happen to have the most hp available in a build currently in a meta where HP's are very important because mobs hit hard. You can build other races to within an AC point or 2 of any dwarf, and very few dwarves will EVER max their dex bonus as they would need a 28 dex to do so in mith FP, and what 24 enhancement points? Then they would be losing their HP or attack bonus via stats and enhancements. Does anyone here really think that the possible AC point advantage if a dwarf chooses to have high dex, max AP's, and gimp himself elsewhere is really game breaking anyway?

Andah
12-02-2007, 09:39 PM
There is no "best" race in the game. There are many talented aka "uber" players who dont ever play dwarves. Dwarves happen to have the most hp available in a build currently in a meta where HP's are very important because mobs hit hard. You can build other races to within an AC point or 2 of any dwarf, and very few dwarves will EVER max their dex bonus as they would need a 28 dex to do so in mith FP, and what 24 enhancement points? Then they would be losing their HP or attack bonus via stats and enhancements. Does anyone here really think that the possible AC point advantage if a dwarf chooses to have high dex, max AP's, and gimp himself elsewhere is really game breaking anyway?

Okay, I'm sorry if you're not even going to read people's posts I'm going to start ignoring your's. Please read what other people are saying and understand it before posting.

It's not that dwarves get the most AC. It's that htey get the most AC, the highest DC's, the most HP, the highest saves and the highest damage.

MysticTheurge
12-02-2007, 10:16 PM
I'm vaguely reminded of the thread that challenged people to come up with any build that wouldn't be numerically better as a dwarf.

If I recall correctly the only one that had a shot was the armor-wearing wizard where Warforged had the advantage. But maybe there were others, I stopped paying attention towards the end.

Mhykke
12-02-2007, 10:32 PM
the highest damage.

Check out slayer's post, a few above. He broke it down for you.



They're the best race in the game right now.

Meh, I don't see it. Definitely not by the margin you're claiming.

Lithic
12-02-2007, 11:31 PM
I'm vaguely reminded of the thread that challenged people to come up with any build that wouldn't be numerically better as a dwarf.

If I recall correctly the only one that had a shot was the armor-wearing wizard where Warforged had the advantage. But maybe there were others, I stopped paying attention towards the end.

That was only due to the self healing (Which is admitedly huge). Also I belive someone made a good case for a CC (Specifically an enchanter) drow. THough for a nuker sorc, Dwarf still wins. And that is just sad.

Dragon
12-02-2007, 11:50 PM
and a question.........

Now, I understand That parts of this game can be frustrating. However, when the goals are only expressed in terms of superlatives,
(I.E. max AC, to-hit numbers, saving throw numbers) I believe We begin to lose sight of the enjoyment that DDO can provide.
I personally have never sought out "the perfect build" for any of my characters, and while some will denounce this on principle, I
believe that the inherant "flaws" of my characters make them unique. To me, building an "uber" character following someone else's template would, quite frankly, be boring because there's no mystery about the way to play such a character. The time it takes me to find out what works and what doesn't work while I level a toon, to Me, is a large part of the enjoyment I get out of DDO. The fact that none of My toons are what some would call "uber", combined with the fact that I can "keep up" with just about anybody in any quest, gives Me much enjoyment.

This i agree with 100% if min/max is all you care about then well go play wow or some other crud like that. DnD has never been about min/max its about learning to use what ya got and adjust hence the group play.

Andah
12-03-2007, 12:50 AM
This is D&D math... not DDO math, you HAVE to include feats, strength bonuses because that all effects weapons in direct porportion to the quality of their criticals (khopesh > rapier/scimitar/picks > axes/warhammers/longswords/bastard swords/shortswords/daggers > hammers/maces in this department)

So lets look at some fighter builds, lets say 30 str for the dwarves and elves and 32 for human khopesh (the +1 makes it so that you can hit 32 with only a +1 tome or +2 tome and base of 17, much more likely), Greater Weapon Specilization (piercing or slashing respectively), Improved Critical, fighter's confirm critical 2, lets assume a much more reasonable to DDO mob ac and a base to hit needed of 5 (3 for elf/dwarf and 4 for human for the +1 from str)

Human Khopesh:
1d8 +4 GWS +11 str +5 weapon = 1d8 +20 average of 24.5 damage a hit
17-20/x3
1-3 = 0 damage
4-16 = 318.5 damage
17-20 (x3) = 294 damage
612.5 damage over 20 swings or 30.625 damage/swing

Elf/Drow rapier:
1d6 +4 GWS +10 str +5 weapon +2 enhancement = 1d6 +21 average 24.5 damage a hit
15-20/x2
1-2 = 0 damage
3-14 = 294 damage
15-20 (x2) = 294 damage
588 damage over 20 swings or 29.4 damage/swing

Dwarf Dwarven Axe:
1d10 +4 GWS +10 str +5 weapon +2 enhancement = 1d10 +21 average 26.5 damage a hit
19-20/x3
1-2 = 0 damage
3-18 = 424 damage
19-20 (x3) = 159 damage
583 damage over 20 swings or 29.15 damage/swing

Things like seeker (bloodstone is 72 damage for khopesh, 72 damage for the rapier, but only 36 damage to the dwarven axe over 20 swings), Power Attack (135 khopesh damage, 125 rapier damage, and 115 damage for the dwarven axe), increase of strength (each +2 str is 27 khopesh damage, 25 rapier damage, and 23 dwarven axe damage), or anyother increase of Base damage (bard buffs anyone? - similar to PA numbers) push numbers up in favor of the khopesh and rapier over dwarven axe, as well as weapon effects such as banishing (only on piercing/bludgeoning), smiting, maiming, and righteousness all effect rapiers/khopeshes more then dwarven axes. . .

As far as AC goes. . . Dwarves Win by a little (as you pointed out its 1 point in full plate/tower, not a huge deal), but if you look any dex based characters

Dwarf
16 base dex +3 levels +3 enhancements (assuming ranger or rogue) +6 item +2 tome = 30 with a max of 32
Elf
18 base dex +3 levels +5 enhancements (assuming ranger or rogue) +6 item +2 tome = 34 with a max of 36

So AC for Dex based
Dwarf:
10 armor (mith breastplate)
5 base armor dex
2 daggertooth belt dex bonus
3 DAM
20 armor

for 12 + 12 = 24 APs and a +4 con (+1 or 2 from enhancements for another 2/6 aps)

Elf
6 armor (white dragon armor otherwise you forfeit bracers and thus lose 2 from chaosgaurds)
12 - 13 dex
18-19 armor again 1 or 2 points isn't going to kill anyone

12 + 6= 18 Aps and +3 con (assuming the elf has a +6 con item to the dwarfs daggertooth belt)

so essentially the dwarf gets +1-2 AC for 6 aps an item slot

With monks coming soon I could see an elf (well actually a halfling then elf) coming out with the highest AC as you don't get your wis modifier while wearing any armor (I think its any armor via 3.5 handbook but never played a monk myself)

Hitting on a 3+? First off that's silly. What in the endgame content do you hit on a 3+? Secondly you never took into account critical confirmation rolls, which WILL lower the elf and human damage considerably.


Check out slayer's post, a few above. He broke it down for you.




Meh, I don't see it. Definitely not by the margin you're claiming.

Either way you cannot argue that elves are not in all ways inferior fighters.


This i agree with 100% if min/max is all you care about then well go play wow or some other crud like that. DnD has never been about min/max its about learning to use what ya got and adjust hence the group play.

No, I care about my character being strong. I want a powerful fighter. The game is not fun for me if I can be shown up every time by a dwarf. If I found a nice RP guild, I might care more about RPing my character than twinking her. Unfortunately I've yet to see anyone RP in the entire time I've played the game... oh, with the exception of two people I caught cybering, but I don't know if that counts. I don't think you taking the moral highground of being the fluffy, character-centric gamer in a Roll-playing online RPG is at all fair, or at all relevant to the discussion at hand. If you want to condemn me for wanting my elf to be as good a fighter as a dwarf can be, then fine. I hope the race you enjoy playing sucks in the next game you pick up as well.

redoubt
12-03-2007, 01:08 AM
Andah, I'll give you that with the combo dwarves make great fighters. (Though I think dwarves are supposed to be great fighters, so I'm not really sure that it is a problem. The problem is probably more like elves are as good a fighters as maybe they should be.)

How about directing the thread toward how to make elves better fighters instead of talking about what should be taken away from another race??? I would guess that if you started the thread with some ideas of how to bring elves up to dwarves, rather than talking about dwarves being overpowered you would have been better received. Any talk of overpowered races or classes get people worried that the nerf bat is on its way.

A slight shift to your delima is this: how do you make elves better fighters without making them the uber class? (I'm assuming you are fighting for normal elves and not drow, as drow make great casters and would then be great at multiple things.)

Anyway, its late and I just thought I'd jump in and try to push toward a positive not as you've probably had enough beatings by this point.

Mhykke
12-03-2007, 01:50 AM
Either way you cannot argue that elves are not in all ways inferior fighters.



No, I care about my character being strong. I want a powerful fighter. The game is not fun for me if I can be shown up every time by a dwarf.


Ummm, yes, i can argue that. You can make powerful elven fighters, and depending on your playstyle, don't have to take a backseat to nobody.

I have an offensive drow paladin. He can more than hold his own. When I was thinking about creating him, drow was better for the build I was going for.

I have a warforged barb. He takes a backseat to nobody. Again, was deciding b/w dwarf and warforged, didn't pick dwarf.

(I also have a dwarf tank...)

I've created a good number of characters. I don't see the disparity that you're claiming, and definitely don't see it to the degree that you're claiming.

Cold_Stele
12-03-2007, 01:54 AM
People can argue all they want that Dwarven melee enhancements aren't overpowered.

Go to the melee forums.

Count the number of optimized new builds that aren't Dwarves

End of argument.

SneakThief
12-03-2007, 03:22 AM
Myself I would say make it only apply to heavy armor. That way they won't gain the benefits of Mithral armor and their armor mastery, but as I said earlier, overlapping and not stacking with Fighter Armor Mastery is wholly acceptable.



Best idea I have heard yet: Dorf Armor Mastery for heavy only; (New) Elf Armor Mastery for light only.

Hvymetal
12-03-2007, 03:41 AM
People can argue all they want that Dwarven melee enhancements aren't overpowered.

Go to the melee forums.

Count the number of optimized new builds that aren't Dwarves

End of argument.
QFT

honkuimushi
12-03-2007, 04:23 AM
A few things I would like people to consider, first off there aremore races than elves and dwarves. I would support holding back on new enhancements for dwarves, but I don't like the emphasis on tearing dwarves down. As a previous poster said, you are free to play any race you want. Yes, dwarves have the best enhancements right now. Elves, drow and warforged are almost as good. You can't just focus on one type of character when talking about the balance between races because different races excell at different classes and character types. I could make a thread complaining about the balance between humans or halflings vs. elves and show how elves are vastly overpowered. In fact, check out some of the threads from module 4 (if there are any left) to see people complaining that it was useless to make a rogue that wasn't a elf or drow.

But I don't want to see elves nerfed. I don't want to see dwarves nerfed. What that will accomplish is people seeing their favorite characters suddenly changed and a lot of people coming to the forums to complain and more people quitting. I don't see much good coming from that course of action. Like I said, we need to add more action points. Not just racial ones, but class APs, and prestige class APs like Mystic Theurge has proposed, just more. Pretty soon, we won't be able to take all the enhancements we want. I know when I made a couple of dwarf builds I couldn't take all the enhancements that I thought were useful. When everone has more options that they want than APs to spend, we have achieved a balance more lasting than one achieved by asking the devs to nerf people's characters. You prioritize, take what you want and don't worry so much what other people are doing.

catpower
12-03-2007, 04:39 AM
You could try a dragonmark build with your elf fighter. I've been playing around with one and it is very nice, near constant displacement is pretty sweet.

I know it's not going to be as good against anything that dispells, but against most content it makes a big difference.

My build is pally/fighter/sorc, but if I built it again, I'd probably go pally/fighter/rogue.

The main benefit to sorc is that you can get extend early (which works on the dragonmark buffs) and you can cast shield on yourself for tougher fights. I've found it nice for thf'n.

P/F/R though looks nice with evasion and ability to wand whip shield (for twf or thf) and other buffs.

Lots of people I've grouped with have finally asked me "How are you constantly displacing yourself?" hehe

Jarlaxel
12-03-2007, 06:20 AM
Which is really my point. They already have toughness... they don't need toughness AND DPS, AND Fighter manuvers AND AC, AND saves. They're the best race in the game right now. Honestly looking aroudn the game a bit earlier there was a HUGE majority of dwarf characters. That right there should say something about the balance, just like builds in an RTS, if everyone's started using one thing, that's probably imbalanced.

I agree, I think Dwarf Armor Mastery should ONLY work in heavy armor. That's perfectly acceptable. That encourages dwarves to be wearing adamantine armor, while elves will usually tend towards mithral... Yes, elves will end up harder to hit, but that's the way it should be. Elves can't take as many hits, but don't get hit as often, Dwarves get hit more, but are tougher. Then everything's the same but different... at least as far as defense.

For elves why not add something like "Elf Melee alacrity" to make up for the less damage per hit? Seems elfy to be swinging faster than a dwarf, doesn't it?

Or, why not break up the tactics feats altogether, give elves bonus to trip DC's, Dwarves sunder and Warforged stunning blow? Maybe give humans 'Versatile tactics' and give them a choice between the three.

Again, you come out with different, but equal, rather than 'dwarves are just better.'


agreed and signed.

Look, elves are good fighters theres no arguing that. However, the dwarf fighter's enhancements are superior. I am not advocating for tearing down the dwarf. However, I think a lot of you are missing the op's point. Dwarves ended up designed to be better not balanced. For example, dwarven armory mastery should not stack with fighter armory mastery. As it stands right now, a base dwarf fighter CAN get a higher ac than a base elven fighter. That is unacceptable. + They get dwarven toughness, dwarven con, spell defense, dwarven axe attack, dwarven damage, and all the extra DC enhancements. What does an elf get to balance that? (a melee alacrity would be cool) (or an elven armor mastery) (shrug) Why should anyone play a straight elf fighter? Just to be different? or for the aestitic appeal? Whats the incentive? thats rediculus. I understand the ops comment about his level of enjoyment. He wants to play a race-class that should be on par with another race-class but in a balanced sense. However, since the two classes aren't balanced that detracts from his enjoyment. He knows he is playing an inferior race-class when it SHOULDN'T be, and hence his posting on the forums. We are not comparing apples and oranges. We all know elves should be equal or balanced as a dwarf in the fighters class. But in ddo the dwarf fighter clearly OUTPERFORMS the elf fighter. Hence, his point about the servers lacking elf fighters and overflooded with dwarven. People follow a model they know that works best. Honestly, how many straight elf fighters do you people see on your servers compared to dwarfs?

Emili
12-03-2007, 07:32 AM
This i agree with 100&#37; if min/max is all you care about then well go play wow or some other crud like that. DnD has never been about min/max its about learning to use what ya got and adjust hence the group play.

LOL.. I asked before in another thread long back, If Denieth were the most powerful military house how did they get there? Certainly was not due to thier race.

Is not really about min/max... it really comes down to this. If a particualy race has so many areas where it has the max then the mean of that race in all those areas are also higher. What that actually means is that the average dwarf they're talking about will have more ac, more hp and more dps and resistances as a melee character than the other races in a melee class. Want is cheap? fighter toughness II + Dwarven Toughness II, Dwarven axe Damage II, Dwaven armour mastery I + fighter armour mastery II ... comes out cheaper ap-wise then any other race in the same class attempting to reach the same.

Some people tout it is the player behind the build and not the build... however a good player with a better average build is going to excell even more then with a build of lesser statute.

MT has meantioned the DDO's emphasis on Dwarf and Drow ... this is not DnD like it is DDO like only due to the racial enhancement lines and the sytem and tools the dev's have built into the game. In DnD there is already the give and take to create well rounded character of any race in any given class - none of which excell above the rest in any particular class. Favored class in DnD only means you do not get penalized in XP for that class when multi-classing not that the race excells 20% to 50% more in that class. DDO does not follow that with the extension produced by the enhancement lines. Dwarf are overpowered both as min/max and on the average. This is why over 70% of melee classes are dwaves and also why so many arcane are elf... Dwarf is such an easy race to build a melee it's actually quite near impossible to screw it up as a melee because you can balance out every single aspect of the character via enhancements so easily - it is an free ticket for a melee build.

Personally, I'd prefer DDO tear down the walls... the class enhancements should be the most effeective for the class not the racial enhancements.

Dexxaan
12-03-2007, 09:07 AM
I say we nerf every class and race in the game a little. That why no one will be left feeling unjustified.

Sound good?

I agree. I mean the OP is probably one of those "We are all made equal so please lower the bar for me types".

NERF everything...please tick me off enough to drop the game. Subsidize the whiners need for equality and lets just play.......RISK online?

EinarMal
12-03-2007, 09:17 AM
I agree. I mean the OP is probably one of those "We are all made equal so please lower the bar for me types".

NERF everything...please tick me off enough to drop the game. Subsidize the whiners need for equality and lets just play.......RISK online?

I am sorry but when most melee classes are "forced" to go Dwarf for the best build that is a problem to me because it makes the game more boring and less interesting to play. It has nothing to do with whining, there are supposed to be check and balances so that you can reasonably make many different class-race combinations that are comparable at least roughly.

I am fine with improving the other races in some way to bring the up closer to Dwarf level so they are at least viable options for min/max builds, but right now Dwarfs are just impossible to beat for any type of melee build and it is not close. So, either you have to come up with ways (enhancements) to the other races to make them better or you have to modify some of the dwarf enhancements.

Like another poster said, go check the fighter/barb/ranger forums and find the percentage of min/max build listed there that are dwarf. That is a pretty good indication that something is not quite right in the balancing they should not be that much better.

It seems like to me more whining is coming from those who obviously have Dwarf fighters than from anyone else!

Makdar
12-03-2007, 09:29 AM
Here's the real downside to playing a dwarf. Your short and fat.

Here's the real downside to playing a drow. Your dull-greyish in color.


Get a grip all. I have 19 chars. (cause I took advantage during the server merge) And one, count em, exactly one of my chars is a dwarf. A bunch are, in fact, drow. Maybe 7 of them, because drow are by far the most powerful class in the game, and lend themselves well to a variety of builds. I don't whine about it. I just have fun.

I have at least one char of each race type.

Just be thankful that halflings aren't the most powerful race in the game. ;)

oronisi
12-03-2007, 10:13 AM
To all those arguing with the OP....are you crazy?! Name me ONE class that a dwarf can't equal any other race in? That's right, even dwarven sorcerors are comparable to the drow in DDO.

Yaga_Nub
12-03-2007, 10:34 AM
What if they made it so that the armor mastery enhancements don't stack but that dwarven armor mastery was reduced by one ap to account for the dwarves better understand/comfort with heavy armor?

Mhykke
12-03-2007, 10:34 AM
To all those arguing with the OP....are you crazy?! Name me ONE class that a dwarf can't equal any other race in? That's right, even dwarven sorcerors are comparable to the drow in DDO.

Meh, I know where people are coming from on this, I still don't buy it. Dwarves can make good sorcs (as can all races)....but drow can fairly easily get over 200 hps, max cha. W/ stoneskin and displacement, the fact that dwarves can get more hp is irrelevant...200+ is plenty. Everything is dead by the time it gets to the caster, and if it does get to him, he's got defensive spells up.

Just b/c dwarves are hardier at being a caster, I wouldn't trade that for the spell DC, even if it is a lowly 1 difference.

Raithe
12-03-2007, 10:57 AM
Here's the real downside to playing a dwarf. Your short and fat.

Here's the real downside to playing a drow. Your dull-greyish in color.

...

Just be thankful that halflings aren't the most powerful race in the game. ;)

Finally, the voice of reason.

I ran with a group doing Cry for Help the other morning. 5 out of 6 characters were drow females. The sixth was human.
I really do not see that many dwarves at all (though that may have something to do with their stature :)).

People who think dwarves are overpowered think that way because they have dwarven statistics on the mind: HP, AC, DPS. Some of us could care less if our hitpoints are 110 or 210, the object of the game for us is not to take any damage in the first place. Some of us use stealth and mesmirizing abilities to a significant degree. Some of us are hooked on evasion. Some of us use ranged combat to debuff and avoid having to chase mobs around. Some of us realize that the true powerhouses in the game are good teamwork and spellcasting.

And, most importantly, some of us are beautiful ;).

Dexxaan
12-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Ok let's say you are in an epic battle and have your choice of a legion of MELEE Recruits - Elves, Humans or Dwarves.

What would be the decision? (Forget terrain, opponents and the other tweaking nit-picky details for a second please...)

Dwarves will be chosen 7 out of 10 or more.

Enough said.

Those seeking equality need to focus on their racial strong points, and many have been already described in this thread. Do some reading, and plan ahead use whats available to you and enjoy the game. Don't blame your shortcomings on others. Deal with what you are or want to be.

At least in this game....have a spine.

Yaga_Nub
12-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Ok let's say you are in an epic battle and have your choice of a legion of MELEE Recruits - Elves, Humans or Dwarves.

What would be the decision? (Forget terrain, opponents and the other tweaking nit-picky details for a second please...)

Dwarves will be chosen 7 out of 10 or more.

Enough said.

Those seeking equality need to focus on their racial strong points, and many have been already described in this thread. Do some reading, and plan ahead use whats available to you and enjoy the game. Don't blame your shortcomings on others. Deal with what you are or want to be.

At least in this game....have a spine.

I'd choose Warforged!

Dexxaan
12-03-2007, 11:17 AM
I'd choose Warforged!

Actually...that also proves my point!

Thanks Yaga!

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 11:23 AM
I'd choose Warforged!

They're cheap and they don't have "families" to "complain" when they "die."

Damn families. /shake-fist

Talon_Moonshadow
12-03-2007, 11:55 AM
Question: Do you want a burly elf? High Str, high Con elf? is that what you want to build? Because that is what almost all of the comparison numbers are based on.....well that and a high Dex dwarf.

Now I'm not saying that dwarves don't have an advantage in this game....expecially in melee combat, which the game is slighted toward anyway.
But if I wanted to build a toon to be str and con based, I would not choose an elf for this role.
Now, if I want to build a dex based toon, then I would choose an elf. I would also put a higher Int on my elf so I could use the combat expertise line of feats......because that seems more like the fantasy elven warrior to me.

That being said, I have long thought that dexed based warriors of any type are gimped in this game. Ranged combat is broke and finesse fighting is way, way behind str based figting styles (except rapiers of puncturing/banishing etc....yes I know that).

I don't want my elf to have the same HP as a dwarf.....it just doesn't seem right to me. But I also don't want my dwarf to have the dex of an elf......

All theories aside, how many people have high Str/Con elves or high Dex Dwarves? And if you have a high dex dwarf, how do you build one with a high Str and Con too? Str is where it is at for melee in this game. There is no comparison to a high Str dwarf with a big dwarven axe in DDO.....it rules, it rocks.....it's the best DPSer I know........it's also not my style.

I wish my high dex elf archer/finesse Ftr could out DPS the dwaven axe slashers....I really really wish this.

I think this is where the argument should be focused......not on making them equal, but on making the ranged and finesse figting styles better and more able to compeat.
I also wish there was a better Ftr/Wiz option for an elf that could get some serious kills as well.
All fantasies aside, the so called support classes are not needed in this game. CC aside. Rangers and elf Ftr/Wiz or finess archers are not needed or even desired by many in most dungeons.
(don't slam me for saying that....I love Rangers and think they are under rated, but that's another post)

woodspider
12-03-2007, 12:28 PM
Yep. Dwarves got some issues.

They seem relatively easy to fix, to me. Though no one (who plays a dwarf) is going to like them.

Dwarven Axe Enhancements --> Change to only affect Dwarven Axes.

Dwarven Armor Mastery --> Change to Dwarven Armored Agility. (i.e. Reduce Armor Check Penalty instead of increase Max Dex)

Dwarven Spell Defense --> Change like Halfling Luck to be three lines, one for each save.

Dwarven Tactics --> Actually, I don't have a huge problem with this one. It seems to fit alright. But if dwarves still seem overpowered after the above, you could make this three lines, like they are for fighters.

I could care less about all these except armor mastery, I designed my fighter with this in mind and it would make his High dex almost useless.

Yaga_Nub
12-03-2007, 12:39 PM
I could care less about all these except armor mastery, I designed my fighter with this in mind and it would make his High dex almost useless.

I think that's what the OP was griping about though. Why would a dwarf have a high dex? It's not in the "spirit" of traditional DnD.

I don't have a problem with it though because you had to give up on other things to get that high dex.

EinarMal
12-03-2007, 01:01 PM
All theories aside, how many people have high Str/Con elves or high Dex Dwarves? And if you have a high dex dwarf, how do you build one with a high Str and Con too? Str is where it is at for melee in this game. There is no comparison to a high Str dwarf with a big dwarven axe in DDO.....it rules, it rocks.....it's the best DPSer I know........it's also not my style.

I wish my high dex elf archer/finesse Ftr could out DPS the dwaven axe slashers....I really really wish this.

I think this is where the argument should be focused......not on making them equal, but on making the ranged and finesse figting styles better and more able to compeat.
I also wish there was a better Ftr/Wiz option for an elf that could get some serious kills as well.
All fantasies aside, the so called support classes are not needed in this game. CC aside. Rangers and elf Ftr/Wiz or finess archers are not needed or even desired by many in most dungeons.
(don't slam me for saying that....I love Rangers and think they are under rated, but that's another post

I don't think anyone is saying they should be equal, 3.5 rules dictate that they are not and there are racial differences built in. Dwarfs do get higher Con (and even a Con enhancement) as well as other things while elf's get higher dex.

There are a lot of things in the enhancement system that violate (in some peoples opinions) the balances that were pretty good in 3.5. No where in any rule book will you find toughness enhancements that give Dwarfs at level 14 50 extra hit points over an elf (the equivalent of about +8 to Con). So, if you just look at toughness enhancements alone that would be put (in terms of hit points) the dwarf +2 (starting stats) +2 (enhancement) +8(toughness enhancement) = +12 Con over an elf.

Hmm might be a bit much maybe?

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2007, 01:07 PM
Didnt see the OP mentioning Dwarven CON enhancements....

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 01:14 PM
I could care less about all these except armor mastery, I designed my fighter with this in mind and it would make his High dex almost useless.

Yeah, the problem, though, is that there are people who would care about each and every one of those.

Except for toughness (which should be brought back in line with the rest of the enhancement system) Dwarves can keep their enhancements for all I care. But they've got to really get some enhancements pushed out that would put the other races on par with Dwarves.

Twerpp
12-03-2007, 01:48 PM
Yeah, the problem, though, is that there are people who would care about each and every one of those.

Except for toughness (which should be brought back in line with the rest of the enhancement system) Dwarves can keep their enhancements for all I care. But they've got to really get some enhancements pushed out that would put the other races on par with Dwarves.

They are on par, just not in melee hit points, the game was never designed for every race to be exact equals in every class, and neither is PnP. This is from the character creation screen maybe it will make you realize that this is exactly how it was intended.

"Dwarves are known for their skill in warfare, their ability to withstand physical and magical punishment, their knowledge of the earth's secrets, their hard work, and their capacity for drinking ale"

"Elves are known for their poetry, dance, song, lore and magical arts. Elves favor things of nature and simple beauty. When danger threatens their woodland homes, however, elves reveal a more martial side, demonstrating their skill with sword, bow, and battle strategy"

Ok so yes it does say that elves can fight, but it's hardly the headliner as it is in the dwarfs case its the very first line. In the elves first line it says poetry..magical arts.Theres a reason for it they make much better casters than they do front-line melee combatants. Perhaps theres a good reason the devs put these descriptions on the very first character generation screen you see?

I don't see why you take issue with dwarven toughness, is it so unbelievable to you that a 200 lb dwarf could have 50 more hit points than an 80 lb elf of the same class? Especially in a game where everyone is granted 20 extra at level one, 10 extra upon favor, and goblinoids have nearly 500.

EinarMal
12-03-2007, 01:59 PM
They are on par, just not in melee hit points, the game was never designed for every race to be exact equals in every class, and neither is PnP. This is from the character creation screen maybe it will make you realize that this is exactly how it was intended

In PnP 3.5 the differences between an elf fighter and dwarf fighter are in starting stats and a few minor racial perks. So, they are very even with Dwarfs having a slight advantage because of better Con.

Yes I do find +50 hit points above PnP rules to be completely unbelieivable.

Yaga_Nub
12-03-2007, 01:59 PM
They are on par, just not in melee hit points, the game was never designed for every race to be exact equals in every class, and neither is PnP. This is from the character creation screen maybe it will make you realize that this is exactly how it was intended.

"Dwarves are known for their skill in warfare, their ability to withstand physical and magical punishment, their knowledge of the earth's secrets, their hard work, and their capacity for drinking ale"

So you're saying they should make an enhancement that reduces their blood/alcohol level? :)

"Elves are known for their poetry, dance, song, lore and magical arts. Elves favor things of nature and simple beauty. When danger threatens their woodland homes, however, elves reveal a more martial side, demonstrating their skill with sword, bow, and battle strategy"

Using your logic, should elves get an elven enhancement like dwarf/wf combat tactics that increases their bonuses to trip/stunning blow/etc.? The screen says that elves have battle strategy skills.

Ok so yes it does say that elves can fight, but it's hardly the headliner as it is in the dwarfs case its the very first line. In the elves first line it says poetry..magical arts.Theres a reason for it they make much better casters than they do front-line melee combatants. Perhaps theres a good reason the devs put these descriptions on the very first character generation screen you see?

Which is more important? That something be mentioned on the first line of the first screen or just on the first screen?

I don't see why you take issue with dwarven toughness, is it so unbelievable to you that a 200 lb dwarf could have 50 more hit points than an 80 lb elf of the same class?

Actually yeah, because I've seen a 140 lbs man kick the living **** out of a 240 lbs man before. Weight doesn't determine toughness.

Especially in a game where everyone is granted 20 extra at level one, 10 extra upon favor, and goblinoids have nearly 500.

comments in red

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 02:04 PM
They are on par, just not in melee hit points...

No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

Mercules
12-03-2007, 02:11 PM
In PnP 3.5 the differences between an elf fighter and dwarf fighter are in starting stats and a few minor racial perks. So, they are very even with Dwarfs having a slight advantage because of better Con.

Yes I do find +50 hit points above PnP rules to be completely unbelieivable.

Well, they also have the fact that they don't slow down in Medium/Heavy armor. Yes this means they are running the same speed as an Elf in Full Plate, but there normal slow speed balances out other advantages they have over Elves. They still have better saves vrs. spells and poisons, and such. Access to an exotic weapon as a martial weapon(The elven weapon advantages do not help Fighters at all). And if they want to cross class they don't have to worry about an XP hit for unbalanced classes, the Elven Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Cleric, Fighter(anything but Wizard) does.

Mercules
12-03-2007, 02:13 PM
No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

Finesse/Throwing build? Really? Wounding/Puncturing build? Really? Heavy Repeater build? Really?

Twerpp
12-03-2007, 02:14 PM
No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

I wonder why Ive only seen about 2 14th level dwarven casters then? And at least a few hundred drow and elven ones. I guess all those casters are inferior to the few dwarves out there?

You don't honestly think that dwarves are better for every build there is do you?

Emili
12-03-2007, 02:18 PM
They are
I don't see why you take issue with dwarven toughness, is it so unbelievable to you that a 200 lb dwarf could have 50 more hit points than an 80 lb elf of the same class? Especially in a game where everyone is granted 20 extra at level one, 10 extra upon favor, and goblinoids have nearly 500.

Why? Why is it that a dwarf with the same feat as another race and having the same con is granted the ability in spending AP's to gain more HP's just for being a dwarf? This and others had always been my viewpoint of the enhancement line... The enhancements in DDO over-shadow the feats, Hmmm +2 to-hit, +2 to-damages with a weapon due to race beyond what is in the SRD? Pulling dex mod to ac out of the air due to race? Pulling SP out of the air due to race? Favored class does not mean this... In DnD there is equal opportunity for all races in all classes. DDO skews the equal opportunity.

jjflanigan
12-03-2007, 02:21 PM
No they're not. See above reference to thread where Dwarves were shown to have a mechanical advantage for just about every single type of build you can think of.

But that thread and most of the opinions are purely that...opinions. Regardless of having some more hitpoints, you will never convince me that a dwarven spellcaster (especially a sorc) is on par with an elven or drow one. Additionally, if you are doing any multi-class fighter / caster type, the elven and drow enhancements to reduce arcane spell failure massively trump the extra hit points and feat DC bonuses you'd get as a dwarf (in my opinion).

All of this arguing is based on what certain people feel is useful. I have many non-dwarven characters and I am confident that given a challenge in a one on one competition I will be able to perform just as well as the dwarven versions if not better in many circumstances.

Mercules
12-03-2007, 02:30 PM
Why? Why is it that a dwarf with the same feat as another race and having the same con is granted the ability in spending AP's to gain more HP's just for being a dwarf? This and others had always been my viewpoint of the enhancement line... The enhancements in DDO over-shadow the feats, Hmmm +2 to-hit, +2 to-damages with a weapon due to race beyond what is in the SRD? Pulling dex mod to ac out of the air due to race? Pulling SP out of the air due to race? Favored class does not mean this... In DnD there is equal opportunity for all races in all classes. DDO skews the equal opportunity.

Yes, the Enhancements are STILL broken, but less so than the previous system. Why is a Fighter innately stronger than a Paladin? Why does a Ranger have more options for dex than the finesse built Fighter?

Part of the problem is that DDO assumes what classes various races are meant for and then gives them enhancements that match. The other part is as you said, that an Enhancement has more weight than a feat although feats are rarer and universal. Some people loose out in multi-classing by not considering enhancements in with every other consideration for deciding how many levels of what class.

Enhancements are very powerful. Not Dwarven enhancements are out of line. Enhancements are out of line. ;)

Aesop
12-03-2007, 02:33 PM
Dwarves get the lion share of the enhancments. There weak point is charisma (and by extrension Charisma casting). Is it possible to make non dwarven characters very good... yes. Is it possible to mke dwarven characters bad... sure. The dwarven enhancments are still on average better than the other races. Most notably for the Melee Combat classes. THe Axe enhancments are one enhancment that covers mulitple aspects of combat including light weapon, two handed ranged and sword and board... this is superior to the elven wweapon enhancments. And possibly superior to the halfling weapon enhancements. The dwarven clerics get more SP. The fighters... well get many of the melee enhancments... Just in shear number of enhancements the dwarves are superior... now If they were to add in some more enhancments for the other races I'm sure that the balance would shift back to the middle... but that depends on what they add and to whom...


Anyway Dwarves got a major boost from the Enhancement line...


This reminds me of the Threads like DDO stands for Drow and Dwarves Online

Aesop

Jarlaxel
12-03-2007, 02:38 PM
In pnp elf fighters are on par with dwarven fighters. In ddo, a dwarf fighter clearly outperforms an elf fighter. Don't tear down the dwarf but increase the elf to perform on par.

The arguement elves make better casters is irrelevant to the ops messege. The messege is in regarding melee based classes and the unbalance between the two.

Mercules
12-03-2007, 02:42 PM
In pnp elf fighters are on par with dwarven fighters. In ddo, a dwarf fighter clearly outperforms an elf fighter. Don't tear down the dwarf but increase the elf to perform on par.

The arguement elves make better casters is irrelevant to the ops messege. The messege is in regarding melee based classes and the unbalance between the two.

But then next we will be complaining that even 32 point Warforged are not as good at being a Paladin as Drow because of their stat negatives and reduction in being healed by Cure spells. Where does the argument end?

Jarlaxel
12-03-2007, 02:44 PM
I wonder why Ive only seen about 2 14th level dwarven casters then? And at least a few hundred drow and elven ones. I guess all those casters are inferior to the few dwarves out there?

You don't honestly think that dwarves are better for every build there is do you?

no I don't, but I wonder why Ive only seen about 2 14th level fighter elves and at least a few hundred dwarven ones. Hmmmmmm.

Mercules
12-03-2007, 02:54 PM
no I don't, but I wonder why Ive only seen about 2 14th level fighter elves and at least a few hundred dwarven ones. Hmmmmmm.

Yes, but that is a far cry from the "Anything you can do a Dwarf can do better." argument a few people offer as an answer to others stating that other races are better suited to things than Dwarves are.

Shade
12-03-2007, 03:00 PM
It's DnD. All DDO did was enhance what the base race is given - and base Dwarf is a far superior fighter then a base Elf in PnP.. Just how it works. 4th edition will actually really allow you to increase your racial bonuses as you level up like DDO does now, so DDO is more like PnP then you think.

Every enhancement is based on a already granted PnP feature:
Axe Dmg - Dwarves are naturally familar with with axes - especially dwarven axes so thus they can get better with them. If you like axes more - play a dwarf, just makes sense. No ones fault but your own if you like a strong dwarf weapon and want to play a weak elf race.
Armor Mastery - from PnP: Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Thus dwarves move and dodge better in armor. Unlike other creatures ie - Elves who might be more dextrous - but there not built to wear armor like dwarves and get slowed down for wearing it - thus they lose dodge ability.
Search bonus: Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) skill to find stonework traps as a rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. - Slightly better in DDO in that the bonus works all the time, but really not a big deal.
Spell defense - Straight from PnP. DDO just offers a +1/2/3 enhancement to further it. Elves get the same treatment, +1/2/3 to there natural enchantment saves.
Goblin/Orc Hatred - This ones actually weaker since you can only enhance the goblin hatred and not the orc for some reason.
+2 Poison saves - From pnp.. Minor enhance nothing special.
+4 Dodge AC vs Giants - This was original +4 base, +4 enhancement for up to +8 - pretty huge. But was nerfed down to +4 base. 5/6/7 enhance. nothing too powerful.
+4 Balance - This is really a gimped ability versus what PnP offers and has no way to enhance it:
PnP: Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#abilityChecks) made to resist being bull rushed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) or tripped (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
Much stronger in PnP since the +4 actually applies to getting triped/knocked down.. Where ours only applies to trying to stand back up - which we never even get a chance to attemp if the monsters continuosly knock us down - IE air elementals or certain wolfs/worgs.
Last couple we don't even exist in DDO as the skills do not exist yet:

+2 racial bonus on Appraise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/appraise.htm) checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) checks that are related to stone or metal.
Then the biggest reason:
Favored Class: Fighter.
DDO draws the rest of its racial enhancements from what the races favored class is.. Since its fighter - ofcourse they get some fighter stuff to make them want to choose fighters as DDO did not implement the XP penalty for multiclassing. There nothing really huge in that list anyways tho: Tactics and toughness is all really.. And Tactics is only +3, and imo toughness is worthless to any decently build fighter.. As you already can get +5 con for being dwarf you can easily get 300+ HP with no feats or enhancments wasted on toughness making it overkill.

Vs elves:
Elves pretty much get almost all there PnP features and every single one also has a related enhancement (more so then dwarves)
-Imunity to sleep - yep
- +2 vs enchantment.. +3 enhancement - yep
- FREE (unlike dwarven axes which are not free but only avail to martial weapon classes) longbow, shortbow, longsword, rapier and related enhancements.. Makes them excellent bards, wizards and sorcerers thanks to great dex and free good weapon feats. If dwarves only got dwarven axe enhancements - classes like wizards, clerics, rogues, etc wouldn't much like that because there not even given the related proficiency.
- +2 search, spot, listed and related enhancements - yep
Really the only thing there missing from PnP is there automatic search to detect secret doors.. Something that high levels can safely ignore due to easy access to secret door googles, truesight googles, or the spell from any friendly caster which does the same thing.
Favored Class: Wizard - Thus given a wizard class enhancement: Elven Arcanum.

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 03:00 PM
But then next we will be complaining that even 32 point Warforged are not as good at being a Paladin as Drow because of their stat negatives and reduction in being healed by Cure spells. Where does the argument end?

Next? I've been complaining that drow are overpowered since before they were introduced. ;)

Twerpp
12-03-2007, 03:12 PM
All of this arguing is based on what certain people feel is useful. I have many non-dwarven characters and I am confident that given a challenge in a one on one competition I will be able to perform just as well as the dwarven versions if not better in many circumstances.


Exactly. An elf can get the exact same to-hit score a dwarf can. But certain people feel axes are more useful. Well sorry elves aren't into dwarven axes... I already feel overpowered over dwarves when I play my WF fighter I stomp dwarves in kill count. And as far as their extra hit points, saves, and survivability my halfling with 330 hp is still way more survivable and has higher AC than many dwarves when Im using a 2 hander even!

You just can't convince me that an elf is somehow supposed to be as good as a dwarf when going toe-to-toe in straight melee combat, in PnP, DDO, or literature (invincible overpowered Drizzt aside of course) so that's why I'm arguing.

I'm not opposed to adding anything to elves, or any race for that matter when it comes to this game I only want more, more. But crying like a baby for a nerf equals less, less. Less build options for all of us. Remember when crybaby PvP'ers got their way and Paladin Aura/Bulwark got cut down? Does anyone truly feel that paladins are overpowered in the games current meta? Now they are stuck with less, less.

As far as insane AC, I PvP a lot, and have NEVER had trouble hitting dwarves, guess who I do have trouble hitting, elves..they can effortlessly max their dex bonus so they usually do, it costs a lot more stat points for a dwarf to even hit +6 let alone the fabled +9 in mith FP (28 dex cmon who does that?) so they simply dont.

Anyway I would love to see elf love, Valenar maybe? But I would also love to see more dwarf love, like dwarven defender which means guess what, an even tougher, harder to hit dwarf. I think a quote from the book would be "the very essence of immovable object" IIRC. And not only racial but more love to classes, PrC etc and I think if we get that people will not be so concerned with, oh the dwarf gots this and that, so let's cry for a nerf. Unfortunatley it's much easier for Turbine to take away than give so when we ask for more we simply don't get it, when we ask for less we get what we asked for.

Twerpp
12-03-2007, 03:15 PM
no I don't, but I wonder why Ive only seen about 2 14th level fighter elves and at least a few hundred dwarven ones. Hmmmmmm.
Yes I agree totally dwarves make better fighters. Thats exactly my argument, dwarves get melee, elves get ranged and casting, and that's exactly how it's supposed to be, world keeps on spinnin.

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 03:23 PM
Exactly. An elf can get the exact same to-hit score a dwarf can. But certain people feel axes are more useful. Well sorry elves aren't into dwarven axes... I already feel overpowered over dwarves when I play my WF fighter I stomp dwarves in kill count. And as far as their extra hit points, saves, and survivability my halfling with 330 hp is still way more survivable and has higher AC than many dwarves when Im using a 2 hander even!

I think it says something that you have to go to a different character each time you want to "best" the dwarf in something.

To me this says:

My elf has to-hits on par, but can't dish out the damage or match the survivability of a dwarf.
My warforged can dish out damage with, but can't achieve the same to-hit or survivability as a dwarf.
My halfling can match the survivability of, but can't reach the to-hit or dish out the damage of a dwarf.

Presumably that wasn't your point, but it does seem interesting that you ended up saying it the way you did.

I agree that nerfing isn't the best answer, but denying that there's currently a fair amount of an enhancement imbalance between dwarves (and perhaps drow) and other races doesn't help either.

And really, part of the problem is that dwarves get some really good all-around enhancements (saves, toughness, constitution) and have some good enhancements broadly useful to a wide variety of builds (anyone in armor, anyone using shields, anyone using axes, divine spellcasters, anyone fighting goblins or giants, anyone using the tactics feats). No other race can compare in terms of available enhancements that are useful to such a broad range of character types.

oronisi
12-03-2007, 03:59 PM
Meh, I know where people are coming from on this, I still don't buy it. Dwarves can make good sorcs (as can all races)....but drow can fairly easily get over 200 hps, max cha. W/ stoneskin and displacement, the fact that dwarves can get more hp is irrelevant...200+ is plenty. Everything is dead by the time it gets to the caster, and if it does get to him, he's got defensive spells up.

Just b/c dwarves are hardier at being a caster, I wouldn't trade that for the spell DC, even if it is a lowly 1 difference.

That's my point though....it's enough to discuss....and we are talking about the merits of a dwarven sorc. Sorcs and bards are a dwarf's weakest class, and you can still make a good character out of it. You can't do the same for the inverse. You can point out a drow or elf's best possible build, and chances are, I can make a dwarf that's comparable. But I can make several dwarven builds that your elf race can't even touch...not by a long shot. Believe me, I've tried. I'm a finesse race lover myself (human, elf, halfling) but I'm not too blind to admit that dwarves are the superior race.

GeneralDiomedes
12-03-2007, 04:14 PM
I demand my Halfing gets blanket AC and TH enhancements.

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 04:17 PM
I demand my Halfing gets blanket AC and TH enhancements.

Halfling Improved Smallness I

1 AP
You gain +1 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness II

2 AP, must have spent 14 AP
You gain +3 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness III

3 AP, must have spent 33 AP
You gain +6 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness IV

4 AP, must have spent 52 AP
You gain +10 to hit and AC

jjflanigan
12-03-2007, 04:18 PM
Halfling Improved Smallness I

1 AP
You gain +1 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness II

2 AP, must have spent 14 AP
You gain +3 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness III

3 AP, must have spent 33 AP
You gain +6 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness IV

4 AP, must have spent 52 AP
You gain +10 to hit and AC

That would rock if each level of the enhancement actually made your character smaller...

GeneralDiomedes
12-03-2007, 04:23 PM
Halfling Improved Smallness I

1 AP
You gain +1 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness II

2 AP, must have spent 14 AP
You gain +3 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness III

3 AP, must have spent 33 AP
You gain +6 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness IV

4 AP, must have spent 52 AP
You gain +10 to hit and AC

On the downside, you are now 27 inches tall and must have a Jump skill of at least 45 to hit anything.

Aesop
12-03-2007, 04:23 PM
Halfling Improved Smallness I

1 AP
You gain +1 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness II

2 AP, must have spent 14 AP
You gain +3 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness III

3 AP, must have spent 33 AP
You gain +6 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness IV

4 AP, must have spent 52 AP
You gain +10 to hit and AC




um... no

how about


Tiny Avenger I

1AP

You have mastered the art of making big people scream in frustration and gain +1 Size Bonus to AC


Tiny Avenger II

2AP
You have masterd the art of gerring inside the big people defenses and making them cry like little girls with skinned knees... +1 Size bonus to hit

Tiny Avenger III

3AP

you areone wily little **** and even magic can't seem to find you. +1 to all Saves

Twerpp
12-03-2007, 04:24 PM
Halfling Improved Smallness I

1 AP
You gain +1 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness II

2 AP, must have spent 14 AP
You gain +3 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness III

3 AP, must have spent 33 AP
You gain +6 to hit and AC

Halfling Improved Smallness IV

4 AP, must have spent 52 AP
You gain +10 to hit and AC

I can get behind that and for no apparent or biased reasons...

Obitus
12-03-2007, 06:47 PM
In PnP 3.5 the differences between an elf fighter and dwarf fighter are in starting stats and a few minor racial perks. So, they are very even with Dwarfs having a slight advantage because of better Con.

Yes I do find +50 hit points above PnP rules to be completely unbelieivable.

Yeah, the toughness enhancements are definitely the number one offender from where I'm sitting. The problem is that, in DDO, a ~14 hp advantage (from having a +2 racial bonus to CON, as in PnP) is meaningless. The devs, it seems, wanted to make Dwarves significantly more sturdy in the game environment they'd created -- though it seems obvious to me that they went too far.

I'm all for creating appreciable flavor differences among the races, but this is a little too much. Either everyone who takes the feat (toughness) should have access to racial toughness enhancements (or some version thereof), or they should be taken away entirely. Presumably the game is being balanced around Dwarven fighter-type hitpoints right now -- just as mob AC was once seemingly balanced around Fighters with +10 attack boosts -- so something has to give for the good of the game. Preferably, the racial toughness enhancements would be ditched entirely, and the mobs' damage lowered somewhat.

Because if everyone is given access to the toughness enhancements, then everyone, or almost everyone, is going to feel as if they need to take them, which is in itself a kind of backwards nerf.

As for the other Dwarven enhancements, there are definitely some powerful options, but none of them strikes me as particularly game-breaking.

Dwarven Armor Mastery is only as good as your DEX score. The idea that it should only work in Heavy Armor is nice thematically, but think about it for a second: What Dwarf has the DEX to fill out a Mithral Breastplate, Fighter's Armor Mastery III, and Dwarven Armor Mastery II? You'd need 30 DEX, and Finesse ain't exactly an optimal route these days. In essence, most of the characters for whom this enhancement is truly powerful are already wearing heavy armor.

Dwarven Axe Mastery is nice too, but the OP is flat wrong in her claim that Rapiers are inferior to Dwarven Axes. The advantage here for Dwarves is that their enhancement line is more versatile (covers more weapon types), not that they necessarily do more damage with it.

The saves versus spells are great, as is the AC bonus versus giants. On the other hand, you could remove the enhancements for these two things entirely (most Fighters as far as I know don't bother enhancing Giant Dodger), and Dwarves would still have a pretty nice advantage (+2 to saves versus spells, +4 to AC versus Giants, +4 to balance checks). It's just a case where the PnP rules happen to give Dwarves a more DDO-applicable advantage. DDO has much heavier bias towards combat than does PnP, and Dwarves happen to receive the largest collection of bonuses directly related to combat.

In terms of Dragonmarks, IMO, Dwarven options suck, which isn't that big a deal, but it is something. The ability, even if it does cost a few feats, to have 5x mana-free Extended Displacements per rest (elf), or 6x mana-free Maximized Heals (Halfling), is the kind of thing around which people design whole builds.

As far as Drow go, their SR was totally gutted. Even if you take the enhancements to max it out (whereas it's free in PnP), you're still getting 5 points less than you would in 3.5 edition DnD. And you're fighting higher-level casters. And you're facing many more spells (than you would in PnP). And SR doesn't even block damage spells in DDO. So what we're left with is a race with very nice starting stats (and your basic Elf side perks), but that advantage is in large part mitigated by 32-point builds (about the only exceptions are crowd-control or instant-death Wizard/Sorcerer builds, for which Drow are ideally suited). If it weren't for the fact that Drow are more readily available than 32-point builds, and by an extremely wide margin, I imagine we'd see far fewer of them.

(After all, male Drow are ugly and they run as if they have a rod stuck up their backsides. :) )

I wouldn't cry too much for the Humans. They only look bad (and not by all that much) if you compare them to Dwarves or if you compare 28-point humans to Drow.

Unfortunately, this game seems doomed to go through massive changes every few months, which is really taxing in a game where most of a build's power comes from rare loot, often bound loot. Just look at all the reroll suggestions in this forum. We don't need to add any huge changes to Dwarves to the pile. Hell, we can't even know for sure whether the bulk of Dwarven enhancement lines are overpowered right now, because the Toughness line is so uber that most Dwarves don't have the points to spend on most of the other racial perks. ;)

Kronik
12-03-2007, 06:54 PM
Maybe I missed it, but everyone seems to be leaving out a very important difference
between an Axe and a Sword.

Crit multiplier. In my opinion, elves gain the advantage on their rapiers when using smiters, banishers

and any of the burst effect weapons.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2007, 06:57 PM
I have all the names of those who posted in this thread.

When dorfs feel the might of the nerf bat on their stumpy arses ama hunt you all down, drag you
into the PvP pit and gank ya.

Or you can stop talking now and reedit all your posts to "Nothin to see here, move along" before the
Devs notice.

Fair warning.

Jarlaxel
12-03-2007, 07:09 PM
I have all the names of those who posted in this thread.

When dorfs feel the might of the nerf bat on their stumpy arses ama hunt you all down, drag you
into the PvP pit and gank ya.

Or you can stop talking now and reedit all your posts to "Nothin to see here, move along" before the
Devs notice.

Fair warning.

awwww now don't be like that :) and I wouldn't worry, turbine would never nerf the dwarfs. They would loose to much by nerfing the #1 played fighter race.

EinarMal
12-03-2007, 07:38 PM
I have all the names of those who posted in this thread.

When dorfs feel the might of the nerf bat on their stumpy arses ama hunt you all down, drag you
into the PvP pit and gank ya.

Or you can stop talking now and reedit all your posts to "Nothin to see here, move along" before the
Devs notice.

Fair warning.

Heh, well as I said in another thread, make toughness tied to the feat so that anyone who takes it can take the enhancements (you can even keep the dwarf toughness on top of that). Toughness is a trait of the individual, although some races are tougher than others. It really has nothing to do with the class at all. If it were class based then Rogues/Rangers/Bards/Clerics etc... would not be eligible for the feat.

That would greatly improve the viability of elf/human/halfling Ranger/Bard/Cleric/Rogue builds that want to try and fight in a game that has been balanced for 400 hit point dwarf fighters/barbarians.

redoubt
12-03-2007, 08:26 PM
To all those arguing with the OP....are you crazy?! Name me ONE class that a dwarf can't equal any other race in? That's right, even dwarven sorcerors are comparable to the drow in DDO.

Bring it! My sorc has a 33DC for enchantments. How about your dorf???

redoubt
12-03-2007, 08:35 PM
Yes, the Enhancements are STILL broken, but less so than the previous system. Why is a Fighter innately stronger than a Paladin? Why does a Ranger have more options for dex than the finesse built Fighter?

Why is there no "ranger STR" enhancement??? Come on... the classes are different. They should be. Not every class get STR enhancements. That is a perk of being a Fighter!

Part of the problem is that DDO assumes what classes various races are meant for and then gives them enhancements that match. The other part is as you said, that an Enhancement has more weight than a feat although feats are rarer and universal. Some people loose out in multi-classing by not considering enhancements in with every other consideration for deciding how many levels of what class.

Enhancements are very powerful. Not Dwarven enhancements are out of line. Enhancements are out of line. ;)

:eek:

redoubt
12-03-2007, 08:37 PM
In pnp elf fighters are on par with dwarven fighters. In ddo, a dwarf fighter clearly outperforms an elf fighter. Don't tear down the dwarf but increase the elf to perform on par.

The arguement elves make better casters is irrelevant to the ops messege. The messege is in regarding melee based classes and the unbalance between the two.

If you make elven fighters even with dwarven fighters, do you then have to make dwarven fighters even with elven casters? And then make halfling fighters even with WF and dwarven fighters and then...???

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 09:15 PM
I have all the names of those who posted in this thread.

When dorfs feel the might of the nerf bat on their stumpy arses ama hunt you all down, drag you
into the PvP pit and gank ya.

Or you can stop talking now and reedit all your posts to "Nothin to see here, move along" before the
Devs notice.

Fair warning.

Yeah right. As if your newly-gimpy dwarf is even going to be able to touch my Halfling with Improved Smallness IV.

;)

More seriously: nerfing dwarves = bad; improving non-dwarves = good. But let's get on the ball with it already.

QuantumFX
12-03-2007, 09:40 PM
More seriously: nerfing dwarves = bad; improving non-dwarves = good. But let's get on the ball with it already.

Well you asked for it...

I think the tactics, toughness, and armor mastery issues should be handled by beefing up the class enhancements.

The Save boosting enhancements are out of whack with the halfling getting the raw deal. The only balance I can think of is to double the cost of Dwarven Spell Defense.

Racial weapons is the one item I can come up with something for.
Right now elves get the shaft
- For 24 AP cost - Elves get to boost 4 weapons. (Rapiers, Longswords, Longbows, Shortbows)
- For 12 AP cost - Dwarves get to boost 5 weapons. (Greataxe, Dwarven Axe, Battleaxe, Handaxe, and Throwing Axe)
OK elven damage has 2 types (Slashing and Peircing) but only applies to 2 weapon styles (TWF [dual heavy], Ranged) but Dwarven applies to all weapon styles at all levels. (THF, TWF [dual light, medium and light and dual heavy], ranged)

Solution A: Make the elven weapon chains apply to all the elven weapons. Same for Drow. And for halflings give them bonuses with the melee and ranged versions of all weapons that can be thrown in P&P. (ex. Dagger, Handaxe, Dart, Light hammers, Shuriken) For humans and warforged give them access to a version that costs twice as much and only applies to a specific type of weapon. (ex. Bludgeon, Slashing, Peircing, Ranged)

Solution B: Pick a type of weapon for each race/weapon type and run with it. Make the chains exclusive as well.
Dwarves:
Dwarven Axe Mastery (Handaxe, Battleaxe, Dwarven Axe)
Dwarven Hammer Mastery (Light Hammer, Warhammer) (This is the main reason I don't play a dwarf: Hammers are the proper dwarven weapon not axes.)
Dwarven Pick Mastery (Light Pick, Heavy Pick)
Dwarven Crossbow Mastery (All Crossbows).

Elves:
Elven Swordplay (Longswords, Scimitars)
Elven Quarterstaff Mastery
Elven Fencing (Daggers, Rapiers)
Elven Archery (All Bows) (Since all elves get access to archery a thrown weapon category is redundant.)

[I]Drow:
Drow Mace Mastery (Light Mace, Heavy Mace)
Drow Fencing (Shortsword, Rapier),
Drow Crossbow Mastery (All Crossbows)
Drow Shuriken Mastery (Shuriken)
(OK, I couldn't think of a good slashing combo to work with. [scimitar is not an option you drizzt clones!] Mace is because female drow are supposed to have a favored class of cleric and crossbow is because they're the inventors of the hand crossbow in P&P.)

Halflings:
Halfling Fencing (Dagger, Shortsword)
Halfling Throwing (All Thrown weapons)
(Slashing weapon would probably be Kukri and the bludgeon would probably be light mace but I don't have any clever names for em.)

Humans and Warforged:
OK this would be tricky. It should affect the standard weapon groups (Peircing, Bludgeon, Slashing, Ranged) This reflects a human's versatility and a warforged life experience of fight, fight, fight. I have 2 way to go here for the AP cost

- Version 1 - Cost is double for the racial weapons (4/8) It's expensive but you're getting the equivilant of 3 feats.
- Version 2 - Cost is 2/4 but requires Weapon Focus for rank 1 and Greater Weapon Focus for rank 2.

Mercules
12-03-2007, 10:52 PM
Why is there no "ranger STR" enhancement??? Come on... the classes are different. They should be. Not every class get STR enhancements. That is a perk of being a Fighter!


But it shouldn't be. DDO... based off D&D not EQ or WoW. A Ranger is not a Dex based class... it is in DDO. It -CAN- be in D&D but so can Fighters, Paladins, Clerics, etc.

If you look at Feats only a few are limited by class. Specifically Weapon Specialization. Others might be limited by having some other feat, some of which you get from a couple different classes. This means in D&D you can build the "Fencer" fighter who uses Dodge, Dex bonuses, and dex based feats for his AC and feats like Disarm, Trip, and others instead of the Power Attack greataxe wielding Fighter.

The Developers of DDO decided FOR US what our characters should be good at. Something many of us despise:mad: in other MMOs. The Enhancement focuses push us in certain directions. I have a Dex based Fighter that really doesn't need the Str enhancements but could use some Dex ones, but guess what I am limited to because "Fighters are guys in heavy armor with big weapons who hit hard!" or at least some idiot decided that, not understanding that they can be, but don't have to be in D&D and can be built in some many more interesting ways.

It's not a "perk" it is a "railroad". ;)

MysticTheurge
12-03-2007, 11:01 PM
If you look at Feats only a few are limited by class. Specifically Weapon Specialization.

Word is 4th edition is dumping even that one last class-restriction on feats. ;)

redoubt
12-03-2007, 11:37 PM
But it shouldn't be. DDO... based off D&D not EQ or WoW. A Ranger is not a Dex based class... it is in DDO. It -CAN- be in D&D but so can Fighters, Paladins, Clerics, etc.

If you look at Feats only a few are limited by class. Specifically Weapon Specialization. Others might be limited by having some other feat, some of which you get from a couple different classes. This means in D&D you can build the "Fencer" fighter who uses Dodge, Dex bonuses, and dex based feats for his AC and feats like Disarm, Trip, and others instead of the Power Attack greataxe wielding Fighter.

The Developers of DDO decided FOR US what our characters should be good at. Something many of us despise:mad: in other MMOs. The Enhancement focuses push us in certain directions. I have a Dex based Fighter that really doesn't need the Str enhancements but could use some Dex ones, but guess what I am limited to because "Fighters are guys in heavy armor with big weapons who hit hard!" or at least some idiot decided that, not understanding that they can be, but don't have to be in D&D and can be built in some many more interesting ways.

It's not a "perk" it is a "railroad". ;)

First, never played EQ or WOW. I played SWG back when you got 250 skill points and had 9 stats and could combine them any way you wanted. I stayed through the CU and quit when the NGE hit. I could not take the massive nerf to variety.

Huh... the folks who made the game decided that each race and class would be different and that the combos would produce different results. And that is railroading you?

I just figured that if you wanted to be the absolute best at something you would pick the race/class combo that gave you the traits you wanted. I have a WF fighter, a drow sorc, a drow ranger/rogue and a 2 human clerics. Lots of people extole the virtues of being a dwarven cleric, but for the two builds I wanted, the human feat, skill points and enhancements worked better. Am I upset that I had to pick "human". Nope.

All in all, I like that not all races get the same bonuses, I like that not all classes get the same enhancements. Sure, I'd love to get some more strength or con on my ranger, but its not to be, and I think that's okay. Humans are the only ones who get enhancements for any and everything. Every other race is specialized.

You are going to say that the different specializations limit you. But I think they make the classes different. If you could get anything on any character I think the variety of options would diminish.

I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree about giving everyone everything they want on every character.

Twerpp
12-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Word is 4th edition is dumping even that one last class-restriction on feats. ;)

Holey moley a barb with greater weapon spec chain would make them freaking insane.

Invalid_86
12-04-2007, 12:10 AM
These balance issues are why we shouldn't have had enhancements in the game to begin with. I say purge them all- but cut down the monsters too.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 12:13 AM
These balance issues are why we shouldn't have had enhancements in the game to begin with. I say purge them all- but cut down the monsters too.

Actually, I have to admit that, with a few exceptions, I really like the enhancement system.

I think it brings more diversity to characters and adds an interesting dynamic to the game. It also ensure that there's something new you can get at every level.

I think Enhancements were a kind of prototype for some stuff we're seeing in 4th edition, and that they have some of the nicer elements of those updates.

Invalid_86
12-04-2007, 01:03 AM
That may very well be, but then again if it's true then 4.0 would ideally balanced for enhancements, not have them tacked on like they are here with all of the "oops" consequences. It's a good idea...just not here.

Andah
12-04-2007, 02:28 AM
If you make elven fighters even with dwarven fighters, do you then have to make dwarven fighters even with elven casters? And then make halfling fighters even with WF and dwarven fighters and then...???

Dwarves are better clerics. Again, Dwarves are amazing at most things, whereas elves are pretty much inferior at all.

Also, does it strike anyone else as strange that DWARVES are better at fighting giants than elves, when the elven race is probably most famous for being a race of slaves to the giants before rebelling and winning their freedom? Just a thought.


Ummm, yes, i can argue that. You can make powerful elven fighters, and depending on your playstyle, don't have to take a backseat to nobody.

I have an offensive drow paladin. He can more than hold his own. When I was thinking about creating him, drow was better for the build I was going for.

I have a warforged barb. He takes a backseat to nobody. Again, was deciding b/w dwarf and warforged, didn't pick dwarf.

(I also have a dwarf tank...)

I've created a good number of characters. I don't see the disparity that you're claiming, and definitely don't see it to the degree that you're claiming.

Yes, you can make powerful elven fighters, and I don't mean to say that they make weak fighters, just that elf fighters are significantly WEAKER than dwarf fighters. I know playstyle accounts for alot. Earlier today I pulled 25 kills to the other fighter (a dwarf)'s 3. We're not arguing about a player's skill or their build, what we're talking about is if two players of equal skill, with equal equipment and equally twinked builds go at it, why is it that nine times out of ten the dwarf would win. I think you're missing the point. Skill can only do so much to lessen the effects of using inferior tools to do the job.

(And if you're reading this, and you're the dwarf I was playing with, I in no way mean to single you out as a bad player or anything of the sort. You did your job great and were very fun to party with)

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 07:54 AM
Yes, you can make powerful elven fighters, and I don't mean to say that they make weak fighters, just that elf fighters are significantly WEAKER than dwarf fighters. I know playstyle accounts for alot. Earlier today I pulled 25 kills to the other fighter (a dwarf)'s 3. We're not arguing about a player's skill or their build, what we're talking about is if two players of equal skill, with equal equipment and equally twinked builds go at it, why is it that nine times out of ten the dwarf would win. I think you're missing the point. Skill can only do so much to lessen the effects of using inferior tools to do the job.

(And if you're reading this, and you're the dwarf I was playing with, I in no way mean to single you out as a bad player or anything of the sort. You did your job great and were very fun to party with)

The bonuses dwarves get do not make them so much greater that they would win at a competition 9 out of 10 times versus a similarly skilled player playing a similarly built Elf. Everyone who's been around for a while will admit that dwarves get more bonuses that (some people) consider to be the "Best for the game." Does this give them a slight advantage? Yep. Is it so big of an advantage that there's no point playing the other races? Nope.

I fully agree that some of the races could use some love in the enhancement department. There are many things in the game that, due to mechanics, are just fluff or a waste of AP. If they would go through and pull those out and replace them with more useful racial enhancement lines, I think that would clear a lot of this up. The issue seems to be not that dwarves get too much, but that the things dwarves get are actually useful.

Also, a lot of this comes down to the fact that people have decided that unless you use a certain weapon combination and put all your points into certain stats a certain way then you are gimped. In D&D, just like DDO, there are weapons that do significantly more damage than others when built to use them fully. This doesn't mean that in PnP every single character always runs around using the same weapon (i.e. every fighter using a khopesh and every finesse type using a rapier). It's kind of disappointing that in DDO if you don't play a certain way you are considered (either by yourself or by others) a "gimp." All of my characters can hold their own in survivability and usefulness...even against these uber dwarves. I'm fairly certain your's can too.



Dwarves Elves
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
Dwarven Axe Damage Elven Melee Damage
Dwarven Axe Attack Elven Melee Attack
Dwarven Armor Mastery Elven Arcane Fluidity
Dwarven Spell Defense Elven Enchantment Resistance
Dwarven Faith Elven Arcanum
Dwarven Constitution Elven Dexterity


In terms of being useful to a certain build, those seem to match up fairly evenly. That leaves us with Dwarves getting "Dwarven Toughness", "Dwarven Shield Mastery" (only useful to specific builds) and "Dwarven Tactics" that don't really have anything comparable in the Elven lines. The elves get Elven Ranged Attack, Elven Ranged Damage and bonuses to Spot, Listen and Search. Now, I can't even start to argue that any of those are in line with Dwarven Toughness for being a "super" enhancement for almost any class or Dwarven Tactics being great for most melee builds. That being said, it's obvious they worked to keep the enhancement trees as balanced as possible and the only reason dwarves "win" is because everyone keeps trying to Min/Max and just make the most uber character possible without caring about anything else related to the character -- Must have max hitpoints, must have max To-Hit and Damage bonus with the best weapon types only!!

Looking through the stats and enhancement lines there are a LOT of builds where being a dwarf would not be the optimal choice. Sure, you'd have more hit points, but that only matters to a certain point. Again, the fact that is being presented of dwarves being superior to other races for everything is highly subjective and that the other races being "significantly weaker"...is not really that significant in my opinion

EinarMal
12-04-2007, 08:22 AM
If you make elven fighters even with dwarven fighters, do you then have to make dwarven fighters even with elven casters? And then make halfling fighters even with WF and dwarven fighters and then...???

They do not have to be even, but I would prefer the balance in the 3.5 system where stat differences and racial traits were not overpowering. They make different types of fighters no one argues with that. However, they are pretty close and the differences are much smaller.

However, the enhancement system is widening the gap artificially based on whatever Turbine felt like at the moment with, to me, little thought to balance. As a Dwarf I can get +3 DC to all strategy skills, +2/+2 damage with all axes, 50 extra hit points, +3 to saves, plus more.... if you cannot see how this makes Dwarfs the hands down choice for melee builds then I really am at a loss. No other race can come close to this list.

I keep coming back to toughness because if you are in a class that does not have toughness enhancements and what to fight you are at a severe disadvantage that does not exist in PnP. This game is supposed to be D&D so to me they should try to maintain the same balance that is in the original rules without overlaying things on top of it that totally changes the game.

To me it is boring to make a cookie cutter Dwarf fighter/barb, the best part of the game is the character creation and all the great variety and builds you can make. That is the only reason a lot of us stay around at this point, it sure isn't to run quest X for the 57 time.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 08:47 AM
Dwarves Elves
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
Dwarven Axe Damage Elven Melee Damage
Dwarven Axe Attack Elven Melee Attack
Dwarven Armor Mastery Elven Arcane Fluidity
Dwarven Spell Defense Elven Enchantment Resistance
Dwarven Faith Elven Arcanum
Dwarven Constitution Elven Dexterity


In terms of being useful to a certain build, those seem to match up fairly evenly.

See I disagree. On the dwarven side, each enhancement is useful to a broader array of characters.

Attack and Damage enhancements. Elves get longswords and rapiers. Dwarves get all axes. That means elves have one-handed and finesse types covered. Dwarves have one handed, two handed and finesse types covered.

Armor Master vs. Arcane Fluidity doesn't even seem like a competition to me. Everyone can benefit from more AC. Only a few people can benefit from lowered ASF.

Spell Defense vs. Enchantment Resistance also seems obvious. The former covers every spell ever, the latter covers a select subset of spells.

Dwarven Faith vs. Elven Arcanum. The former applies to Paladins and Clerics (classes which also mesh better with the dwarfs other enhancements), the latter applies only to Wizards.

Constitution vs. Dexterity. Again, everyone can use more constitution (and therefore more hit points and fort save). Sure, most people could use another point of AC and +1 reflex. Unless they've already capped out the max dex on their armor. Which they can't get that high. Since they're not dwarves. :rolleyes:

Mercules
12-04-2007, 09:41 AM
Attack and Damage enhancements. Elves get longswords and rapiers. Dwarves get all axes. That means elves have one-handed and finesse types covered. Dwarves have one handed, two handed and finesse types covered.


You forgot Throwing and there is a specialized Dwarf restricted weapon that is covered by the enhancement. My Dwarven Rogue loves his Dwarven Thrower, since he gets a +2 to hit with it.



Huh... the folks who made the game decided that each race and class would be different and that the combos would produce different results. And that is railroading you?

The folks who interpreted D&D into an MMO environment added an artificial layer on top of the normal rules that push certain classes towards certain roles, something D&D 3.x moved away from. It was like a 10 year step back in time. That is what annoys me. When I came to DDO I hoped to play in the D&D 3.5 rule set, not D&D 3.5 with someone else's interpretation of what all the classes and races should do.

I'll explain it again. Fighters fight. Various fighters fight in different ways. They could be Rapier/Main Gauche fencers, Battle Axe and Shield, Repeating Crossbow, Good with Everything, Gladiator style, Mounted Archers, and more and more. Some disarm their opponents. Some Bull Rush them. Some are straight forward, some are not and use feints and clever tactics. Making -ALL- Fighters have a Str bonus when some could better use a Dex bonus is pushing them towards Str based weaponry/tactics.

Rangers scout, survive in the wilderness, fight, and have magical ties to nature. Some use bows more than hand weapons. Some use swords and shields, some use two weapons. In D&D they have to choose which fighting style they get. Making -ALL- Rangers get a Dex bonus pushes them towards using Dex based weapons/tactics.

Paladins fight, protect the weak, and heal the afflicted. There spell casting abilities are limited so making -ALL- Paladins get a Cha bonus pushes them towards their Smites(which are not nearly as universally effective as just a single +1 to Str) and turn undead abilities.

As well, D&D 3.5 encourages characters that are a blend of various classes and that have a variety of abilities, or at least doesn't discourage them like previous versions. The enhancement system being so focussed and class orientated again pushes towards single class or splash builds for characters and pushes certain classes towards certain roles.

I can see numerous builds wanting a Str or Dex or Wis enhancement. My Rogue doesn't want Dex enhancements, he would love Str or Int.

D&D 3.5 allowed this customization with the Feat system where all you need to get a feat is the prerequisites no matter HOW you get them. The Feat system doesn't care if your BAB +4 comes from four levels of Fighter or 6 levels of Cleric or a mix of the two. That is how the enhancements SHOULD have been.




I just figured that if you wanted to be the absolute best at something you would pick the race/class combo that gave you the traits you wanted. I have a WF fighter, a drow sorc, a drow ranger/rogue and a 2 human clerics. Lots of people extole the virtues of being a dwarven cleric, but for the two builds I wanted, the human feat, skill points and enhancements worked better. Am I upset that I had to pick "human". Nope.

And this isn't always a bad thing, but the overpowered nature of the enhancement system pushes it in the wrong direction. A Dwarven Fighter with an ax and a shield should have a minor bonus over an Elven Ranger with a sword and shield, not a HUGE bonus. Both are Full BAB classes but the Ranger class is not as focussed on fighting as the Fighter. In the Feat system this is represented by the Fighter being able to take Fighting specific feats to empower him in combat. The enhancement system slams him into one role while at the same time giving him a much larger bonus over another race/class combo. In D&D Dwarves make good Fighters, but so do Humans, Elves, Warforged, and so on. In DDO Dwarves make the BEST Fighters, hands down. See the difference? In one it is a slight advantage, in the other its exaggerated.



All in all, I like that not all races get the same bonuses, I like that not all classes get the same enhancements. Sure, I'd love to get some more strength or con on my ranger, but its not to be, and I think that's okay. Humans are the only ones who get enhancements for any and everything. Every other race is specialized.

You are going to say that the different specializations limit you. But I think they make the classes different. If you could get anything on any character I think the variety of options would diminish.

All in all having differences is nice, that is why it would be nice if there were more choices for each class instead of ONE stat that you may or may not need for any given character in that class. How is "Every Fighter got Str." boosting the options you mention? Different is fine. The classes are already different, but in each case they have the equivalent. Also, they all have the feat system, which is powerful, that they ALL have access to to add in variety. Enhancements should be like the Feat system adding tweaks and enhancements to a character, not defining their class/role like they do. Yes there should be racial Enhancements and maybe some class Enhancements, but I think it would be better if there were more options. The Prerequisite for Divine Vitality shouldn't be Cleric 3, but instead "The ability to Turn Undead and level 3" or maybe even "Turn Undead and 5 ranks in Heal".


I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree about giving everyone everything they want on every character.

It is not giving them everything they want, it is giving MORE options for more customization that is not class based.:p Just like feats you will only get so many and taking this one means you won't be able to afford that one.

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 10:41 AM
See I disagree. On the dwarven side, each enhancement is useful to a broader array of characters.

Attack and Damage enhancements. Elves get longswords and rapiers. Dwarves get all axes. That means elves have one-handed and finesse types covered. Dwarves have one handed, two handed and finesse types covered.

Armor Master vs. Arcane Fluidity doesn't even seem like a competition to me. Everyone can benefit from more AC. Only a few people can benefit from lowered ASF.

Spell Defense vs. Enchantment Resistance also seems obvious. The former covers every spell ever, the latter covers a select subset of spells.

Dwarven Faith vs. Elven Arcanum. The former applies to Paladins and Clerics (classes which also mesh better with the dwarfs other enhancements), the latter applies only to Wizards.

Constitution vs. Dexterity. Again, everyone can use more constitution (and therefore more hit points and fort save). Sure, most people could use another point of AC and +1 reflex. Unless they've already capped out the max dex on their armor. Which they can't get that high. Since they're not dwarves. :rolleyes:

I disagree...anyone wearing robes or light armor is not going to benefit much (or not at all) from armor mastery, where any caster that wants to wear armor would benefit from the arcane fluidity. If you are a caster and have a +5 mithril chain shirt, that arcane fluidity is hugely more useful than armor mastery...I can't really think of any caster style builds that would use armor mastery over it.

I also disagree with the constitution over dexterity. There are a huge number of builds where taking a racial bonus to dexterity is much more useful than taking a racial bonus to constitution.

Also note that I flat out stated "In terms of being useful to a certain build, those seem to match up fairly evenly". If you are making a build that is going to use Axes the axe bonuses are EXACTLY as useful as the elven bonuses if you are making a build that is using rapiers or longswords.

I also stated that I agreed that the less useful enhancement lines for other races should be removed and replaced with things that people actually want.

My only point is that, against what you guys keep saying, the dwarf is not the end-all-be-all perfect race for all (or even the majority of builds). If this thread had just said "Elven enhancements need some love" that would be different, but, even though you keep saying "We don't want to nerf dwarves" -- every time a comparison or complaint is made, it is made in reference to how it compares to dwarves. The big issue with that is that's not going to lead to getting other enhancements fixed, it will lead to getting dwarves nerfed which will cause us to lose more players.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 10:54 AM
I disagree...anyone wearing robes or light armor is not going to benefit much (or not at all) from armor mastery, where any caster that wants to wear armor would benefit from the arcane fluidity. If you are a caster and have a +5 mithril chain shirt, that arcane fluidity is hugely more useful than armor mastery...I can't really think of any caster style builds that would use armor mastery over it.

Yeah, getting rid of ASF might be useful if you have a +5 mithral chain shirt, but you're still not going to have the AC to stand up to the monster To-Hits that have to compete with a Dwarven Fighter in +5 Mithral Full Plate. So, really, wearing the +5 mithral chain shirt doesn't get you a whole lot.

And I was kind of disregarding robe wearers since neither enhancement benefits them in any way.


Also note that I flat out stated "In terms of being useful to a certain build, those seem to match up fairly evenly". If you are making a build that is going to use Axes the axe bonuses are EXACTLY as useful as the elven bonuses if you are making a build that is using rapiers or longswords.

Right, but the point I've been trying to make is that while many dwarven enhancements may not be more powerful for Build A than another races enhancements are for Build B, the dwarven enhancements are a lot more widely useful. And more useful to a wider array of more powerful builds.


I also stated that I agreed that the less useful enhancement lines for other races should be removed and replaced with things that people actually want.

Yeah, I've been saying this too. Well, except maybe the "get rid of old enhancements" part. I'd settle for just adding some new ones.


My only point is that, against what you guys keep saying, the dwarf is not the end-all-be-all perfect race for all (or even the majority of builds).

The biggest problem, in my mind, is that dwarves can be fairly competitive, largely thanks to their enhancements, it almost all builds. This just can't be said for any other race.


If this thread had just said "Elven enhancements need some love" that would be different, but, even though you keep saying "We don't want to nerf dwarves" -- every time a comparison or complaint is made, it is made in reference to how it compares to dwarves. The big issue with that is that's not going to lead to getting other enhancements fixed, it will lead to getting dwarves nerfed which will cause us to lose more players.

Sorry, but that's just the way the discussion is going to be framed. Dwarven enhancements are head and shoulders above the enhancements for pretty much all the other races. And that doesn't seem to be changing any time soon.

Honestly, I'd love if they could find a way to even things out without nerfing dwarven enhancements, but at the same time I look at, for example, QuantumFX's proposed list of weapon enhancements for all races, and I don't particularly like that kind of solution either. They need to find a balance in enhancements that adds to characters powers without making them so powerful they overwhelm the standard D&D rules. There may not be a way to balance enhancements between races and still keep them reasonable within the D&D rules. In which case, toning down the dwarf enhancements may be the only solution.

ahpook
12-04-2007, 10:58 AM
More seriously: nerfing dwarves = bad; improving non-dwarves = good. But let's get on the ball with it already.

This I would disagree with. You cannot solve a problem by constantly increasing everything to match the best. That causes a power spiral that cannot be sustained. Its like trying to solve a game with too much loot by adding more/better loot. :eek:

A Small nerf to dwarves would not be a bad thing especially in the enhancement department which is easy to respec. (Of course, I am sure that everyone else would cry doom and disagree with me.)

Mad_Bombardier
12-04-2007, 11:03 AM
A Small nerf to dwarves would not be a bad thing especially in the enhancement department which is easy to respec. (Of course, I am sure that everyone else would cry doom and disagree with me.)Agreed.

Though, I'm totally torn on the Dwarven Axe enhancements. One half of me says drop the throwing axes from the list and make it melee only (leave throwing to the Halfers or split it like Drow weapon enhancements). Another part of me says Dwarves need the advantage since non-martial classes can't use axes and we don't have our other racial proficiency, Urgroshes.

redoubt
12-04-2007, 11:13 AM
You mentioned rangers, so I'll use them as a quick example/question.

If you gave rangers access to DEX, STR and CON enhancements... I would take pretty much those with a little filler. I've already got 34 dex. I'd sure as heck put a couple points into CON to go up to 18 and a couple into STR to hit 24 instead of 22. All in all, I would be taking 5 points of ranger/elf dex, 2 points of ranger STR and 2 points of ranger CON. Maybe I could squeeze in some ranger WIS to increase my spell points or some ranger CHA to improve UMD.

While giving every class access to all the stat enhancements would provide new "options" would it not also simply force you to take them to compete? Someone (or lots of someones) would do it. The characters would become that much more powerful again and the mobs would inflate again. Now any character that did not take ALL of them would be "gimp".

Besides, isn't the ability to access all the stats supposed to be the "human" thing?

Do you really want racial and class enhancements to every stat?

I agree that some other races could use a few enhancements to help catch up with dwarves. I agree that dwarven toughness is VERY powerful. Aside from Halfling smallness I'm having trouble remembering suggestions within the thread to improve the other races. How about we discuss some of those? It would be great to see some ideas to improve elves (as an example) that don't try to make dwarven clones.

So far I remember:
halfling smallness - a joke I think.
another halfling one - tiny avenger was it?
elven armor mastery - light only

Lots of folks are made about the good bonuse to axes. What if the elven bonus to elven melee was increased? Or split it so you pick one (i.e. rapier) and get a better one cheaper?

Elven rapier attack
+1 for 1 ap
+2 for 2 ap
+3 for 3 ap
+4 for 4 ap -- total progression cost 10, but is limited to one weapon

Elven rapier damage
same as above

elven rapier crit range
+1 for 2 AP - requires weapon focus pierce
+2 for 4 AP - requires improved crit pierce

elven rapier crit confirm
+2 for 1 ap
+4 for 2 ap
+6 for 3 ap
+8 for 4 ap.

elven rapier penetration
25% chance to bypass piercing DR - 1 ap
40% - 2 ap
55% - 3 ap
70% - 4 ap

These are powerful yes, but limited to a SINGLE weapon which is the balance point. You could give options for all the elf weapons: longsword, rapier, shortsword, bow etc. (But not to stupid weapons like shuriken - who the heck want to specialize in shuriken???) This would be in-line with the more graceful, "educated and trained" concept of an elf rather than the brute force "just wack it really hard with any ole axe" dwarven mentality.

With narrow focus, but powerful enhancements like these, you would also rapidly run out of AP. Taking some of every stat enhancement would not be possible if you wanted one of these lines. Heck you might not even have enough AP to fill out all the rapier bonuses. (I mean, I just listed 46 actions points for rapier alone.)

This would give lots of options. It would give big boosts to elves. This would give elven longsword fighters some bigger teeth. It would boost elven dex melee types as well.

Would this type of thing give you the options you seek, or are you just looking for STR and CON enhancements?

Drow could get same as elves.
Halflings daggers, light picks(?), cross bows(?) and some other small weapons.
WF - greatsword, greatclub, greataxe, maul (each is separate), (maybe longsword)
Dwarves get what they already have
Humans - similar lines, but at 50% of the bonuse but apply in classes. I.e. ALL-Marial or ALL-Simple or ALL-Exotic.

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 11:17 AM
This I would disagree with. You cannot solve a problem by constantly increasing everything to match the best. That causes a power spiral that cannot be sustained. Its like trying to solve a game with too much loot by adding more/better loot. :eek:

A Small nerf to dwarves would not be a bad thing especially in the enhancement department which is easy to respec. (Of course, I am sure that everyone else would cry doom and disagree with me.)

I fully understand that if you just keep increasing things then they get massively out of hand quickly.

However, with the current state of the game and the current mindset of most of the players, I think we'd take a large hit to player morale (maybe even player base) if they start making sweeping changes that would be classified by almost everyone as a nerf. If you go just by this thread, they'd need to remove Dwarven Armor Mastery (or make it not stack with fighter armor mastery) as well as Dwarven Toughness and then modify Dwarven Axe Damage / Attack to not work with as many weapons ...perhaps even change their Spell Defense to only work on a small subset of spells. That's a lot of nerfing right there.

Also, please note, I no longer have any of my dwarven characters...they were too short and fat, so I rebuilt the two I had as other races at this point. That's the basis for my position that other race / class combinations are just as much fun to play and are just as useful in the game as dwarven versions of them. I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to compare themselves to other players to feel good. If you have fun and your character survives and contributes...why does it matter if Player Z has a higher armor mastery than you?

redoubt
12-04-2007, 11:22 AM
I fully understand that if you just keep increasing things then they get massively out of hand quickly.

However, with the current state of the game and the current mindset of most of the players, I think we'd take a large hit to player morale (maybe even player base) if they start making sweeping changes that would be classified by almost everyone as a nerf. If you go just by this thread, they'd need to remove Dwarven Armor Mastery (or make it not stack with fighter armor mastery) as well as Dwarven Toughness and then modify Dwarven Axe Damage / Attack to not work with as many weapons ...perhaps even change their Spell Defense to only work on a small subset of spells. That's a lot of nerfing right there.

Also, please note, I no longer have any of my dwarven characters...they were too short and fat, so I rebuilt the two I had as other races at this point. That's the basis for my position that other race / class combinations are just as much fun to play and are just as useful in the game as dwarven versions of them. I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to compare themselves to other players to feel good. If you have fun and your character survives and contributes...why does it matter if Player Z has a higher armor mastery than you?


As far as armor mastery goes, I think that if they brought back fighter armor mastery 4 it would mostly fix it. Other races could get 7 points of dex AC with MFP. That requires 24 dex. That is a lot for a STR fighter. (DEX fighters mostly don't care cause we often wear robes.) The argument that the dwarves would just take it too does not really hold water. How many dwarven fighters are going to use 10 points of DEX bonus? And at what cost? The one possiblility I see is a pure Intimi-tank, just because he's not relying on damage to hold aggro.

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 11:25 AM
As far as armor mastery goes, I think that if they brought back fighter armor mastery 4 it would mostly fix it. Other races could get 7 points of dex AC with MFP. That requires 24 dex. That is a lot for a STR fighter. (DEX fighters mostly don't care cause we often wear robes.) The argument that the dwarves would just take it too does not really hold water. How many dwarven fighters are going to use 10 points of DEX bonus? And at what cost? The one possiblility I see is a pure Intimi-tank, just because he's not relying on damage to hold aggro.

Sadly, that wouldn't fix it. People would then just shift the complaint to say that dwarves could get the benefit of Armor Master 4 for cheaper than other races (fighter armor mastery 2 + dwarven armor mastery 2 instead of fighter armor mastery 4).

redoubt
12-04-2007, 11:33 AM
Sadly, that wouldn't fix it. People would then just shift the complaint to say that dwarves could get the benefit of Armor Master 4 for cheaper than other races (fighter armor mastery 2 + dwarven armor mastery 2 instead of fighter armor mastery 4).

They can already put on a daggerstooth belt and take only 2 levels of dwarven and have 4 points dex bonus for little AP cost. I see little difference.

I think dwarven armor mastery makes sense. Don't they make most armor anyway???

Now, I'm not saying you are wrong (because they will complain), but a complaint that dwarves can have skill X for less cost than another race smacks of whining and asking for the nerfing of another class just because you can't have your personal dream combo.

Look at the casters: they get spells at different levels.
Look at rogues and rangers: they get evasion at different levels.
I know the argument is not using enhancements, but there are different levels of investment in a given class required to get skill X.

ALSO -- this would give ANY fighter access to a very high level of DEX bonus. Maybe it cost more depending on the race you choose, but you can still get it! (My human cleric can get 3 points of WIS for less than any other race. And humans are the only race that can get 4 point of WIS bonus.)

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 11:55 AM
However, with the current state of the game and the current mindset of most of the players, I think we'd take a large hit to player morale (maybe even player base) if they start making sweeping changes that would be classified by almost everyone as a nerf. If you go just by this thread, they'd need to remove Dwarven Armor Mastery (or make it not stack with fighter armor mastery) as well as Dwarven Toughness and then modify Dwarven Axe Damage / Attack to not work with as many weapons ...perhaps even change their Spell Defense to only work on a small subset of spells. That's a lot of nerfing right there.

I think tweaking these enhancements, limiting them, as opposed to eliminating them or reducing the actual bonuses would be the best answer.

So far, I'm really liking:

Dwarven Armor Mastery - Make it apply in heavy armor only. Still powerful, just a bit more limited. And it fits better with the iconic image of a dwarf.
Dwarven Axe Effects - I think you could readily limit these to one-handed, melee axes in order to tone this one down nicely. Heck you could even add another line for one-handed, melee hammers for a good dwarven alternative.
Dwarven Toughness - Honestly, I never had a big problem with this until they changed toughness enhancements. If you could get 20 extra hit points from being a dwarf it'd be fine, no big deal. Getting 50 hit points for being a dwarf is more problematic.
Spell Defense - Again, I think the halfling model here is simply the best way to go. Put in a line for each type of save.

People are still going complain about the "nerf" but honestly sometimes nerfs need to happen.

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 12:12 PM
I think tweaking these enhancements, limiting them, as opposed to eliminating them or reducing the actual bonuses would be the best answer.

So far, I'm really liking:

Dwarven Armor Mastery - Make it apply in heavy armor only. Still powerful, just a bit more limited. And it fits better with the iconic image of a dwarf.
Dwarven Axe Effects - I think you could readily limit these to one-handed, melee axes in order to tone this one down nicely. Heck you could even add another line for one-handed, melee hammers for a good dwarven alternative.
Dwarven Toughness - Honestly, I never had a big problem with this until they changed toughness enhancements. If you could get 20 extra hit points from being a dwarf it'd be fine, no big deal. Getting 50 hit points for being a dwarf is more problematic.
Spell Defense - Again, I think the halfling model here is simply the best way to go. Put in a line for each type of save.

People are still going complain about the "nerf" but honestly sometimes nerfs need to happen.

The only one of those changes that I would have an issue with is the proposed one for Armor Mastery. In the iconic concept of a dwarf they are masters of working with metals and stones. As such, it would seem silly to me for them to lose their armor mastery simply because their full plate was made out of mithril instead of adamantine.

Ringos
12-04-2007, 12:32 PM
It is fair...you too, my friend, can play a dwarf. Fair just means we all have access to the same stuff. You, however, have chosen an elf for flavor reasons and now seek to have a "dwarf in disguise". If all of the options are exactly equal we will end up with one look, one template and only a single character class. The variations in choices are part of what makes the game fun. Please don't seek to change that. Just go back and play a Dwarf.

That said, I've played both. It's the player behind the toon that makes 'em "uber".
:D

Bingo!

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 01:22 PM
The only one of those changes that I would have an issue with is the proposed one for Armor Mastery. In the iconic concept of a dwarf they are masters of working with metals and stones. As such, it would seem silly to me for them to lose their armor mastery simply because their full plate was made out of mithril instead of adamantine.

But iconicly, mithral is more of an elven metal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#elvenChain).

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 01:25 PM
But iconicly, mithral is more of an elven metal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#elvenChain).

Right, but why would making armor out of a lighter metal mean that dwarves are no longer as adept at moving around in it?

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 01:35 PM
Right, but why would making armor out of a lighter metal mean that dwarves are no longer as adept at moving around in it?

Because their natural aptitude is with heavier armors allowing them to get a bit more flexibility out of them than others would. Lighter armors they're no more proficient with than anyone else.

I mean, you could come up with a reason that makes sense. You just don't want there to be one. Just like I don't want there to be a reason that they're better with all armor ever (which you could also come up with if you wanted to).

In general, it's relatively easy to justify most things of this nature (assuming they're moderately reasonable) and it comes down to a question of game balance. I mean, you could justify my above "Improved Smallness" line for halflings. But it wouldn't be a good idea to put it in the game.

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 01:46 PM
Because their natural aptitude is with heavier armors allowing them to get a bit more flexibility out of them than others would. Lighter armors they're no more proficient with than anyone else.

I mean, you could come up with a reason that makes sense. You just don't want there to be one. Just like I don't want there to be a reason that they're better with all armor ever (which you could also come up with if you wanted to).

In general, it's relatively easy to justify most things of this nature (assuming they're moderately reasonable) and it comes down to a question of game balance. I mean, you could justify my above "Improved Smallness" line for halflings. But it wouldn't be a good idea to put it in the game.

Well, it wasn't that I didn't want there to be one, I just didn't think of it in the manner that you phrased it ;).

Perhaps rather than making it only apply to heavy armor, just impose a cap on it, something along the lines of "Gives you the ability to move better in armor, increasing the Maximum Dexterity Bonus on your armor by +1 (to a maximum of +6). You may still be restricted by your tower shield's max Dex bonus."

This would basically have the same effect, but would allow for decisions and options

Dwarven Fighter would be able to receive the same benefit from normal FP that a non-dwarf gets from mithril FP, without the ability to jack it up even higher. Would also, basically, limit it to just heavy armors as the maximum bonus that the enhancement would allow it to raise to would be +6.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 02:04 PM
Well, it wasn't that I didn't want there to be one, I just didn't think of it in the manner that you phrased it ;).

Perhaps rather than making it only apply to heavy armor, just impose a cap on it, something along the lines of "Gives you the ability to move better in armor, increasing the Maximum Dexterity Bonus on your armor by +1 (to a maximum of +6). You may still be restricted by your tower shield's max Dex bonus."

This would basically have the same effect, but would allow for decisions and options

Dwarven Fighter would be able to receive the same benefit from normal FP that a non-dwarf gets from mithril FP, without the ability to jack it up even higher. Would also, basically, limit it to just heavy armors as the maximum bonus that the enhancement would allow it to raise to would be +6.

That's a nice take on it too. Though I do think it'd be more confusing for people. I know it may just be the way you worded it, but I could see someone thinking that means "a max of +6 higher than it would be normally."

Still you could probably come up with something here that would be a nice solution, without absolutely limiting it to heavy armor.

QuantumFX
12-04-2007, 02:32 PM
This I would disagree with. You cannot solve a problem by constantly increasing everything to match the best. That causes a power spiral that cannot be sustained. Its like trying to solve a game with too much loot by adding more/better loot. :eek:

A Small nerf to dwarves would not be a bad thing especially in the enhancement department which is easy to respec. (Of course, I am sure that everyone else would cry doom and disagree with me.)

And I couldn't disagree with you more and I'm not crying doom if they did nerf them. Enhancements have a natural limiting factor: how many APs are available to the character. Dwarves are the only race that has so many useful racial enhancement choices that it's hard to fit them all into a build unless the class enhancements suck (ex. Rangers).

Mercules
12-05-2007, 09:02 AM
Well, it wasn't that I didn't want there to be one, I just didn't think of it in the manner that you phrased it ;).

Perhaps rather than making it only apply to heavy armor, just impose a cap on it, something along the lines of "Gives you the ability to move better in armor, increasing the Maximum Dexterity Bonus on your armor by +1 (to a maximum of +6). You may still be restricted by your tower shield's max Dex bonus."

This would basically have the same effect, but would allow for decisions and options

Dwarven Fighter would be able to receive the same benefit from normal FP that a non-dwarf gets from mithril FP, without the ability to jack it up even higher. Would also, basically, limit it to just heavy armors as the maximum bonus that the enhancement would allow it to raise to would be +6.

Actually I kind of like this. My Dwarven Rogue benefits from Dwarven Armor mastery as he can wear a Mithral BP, keep his evasion and have a higher AC than he would in a robe, since he has more rounded stats instead of being the master of Dex. He fills out his max Dex bonus on the Mithral BP but would be over if he didn't have access to the enhancement. If the enhancement didn't stack, or only stacked to a max level it would still be useful for those that are not Fighters or to cheapen the enhancement cost for those that are Fighters in the case of maxing out.

Andah
12-06-2007, 01:25 AM
They can already put on a daggerstooth belt and take only 2 levels of dwarven and have 4 points dex bonus for little AP cost. I see little difference.

I think dwarven armor mastery makes sense. Don't they make most armor anyway???

Now, I'm not saying you are wrong (because they will complain), but a complaint that dwarves can have skill X for less cost than another race smacks of whining and asking for the nerfing of another class just because you can't have your personal dream combo.

Look at the casters: they get spells at different levels.
Look at rogues and rangers: they get evasion at different levels.
I know the argument is not using enhancements, but there are different levels of investment in a given class required to get skill X.

ALSO -- this would give ANY fighter access to a very high level of DEX bonus. Maybe it cost more depending on the race you choose, but you can still get it! (My human cleric can get 3 points of WIS for less than any other race. And humans are the only race that can get 4 point of WIS bonus.)

Whining just because I can't have my dream combo? I don't think people are understanding that it sucks all the fun out of the game for people if they have to play a race they don't like just to be on par with the more elite fighters in the game.

Sorcs get new spells slower because they have more SP and cast faster.

Rangers have more combat abilities, and so they don't get some of the rogue abilities until later.

What would be the balancing factor then in Dwarves versus Elves? Dwarves get better AC, More HP, Better DCs and more Weapon Bonuses for cheaper, but... Oh, right... But nothing. That wouldn't be balanced.

wundernewb
12-06-2007, 08:27 AM
Don't believe me, or don't feel I'm fairly accounting for all factors? Take a look:

Firstly, Dwarven Axe Damage and Dwarven Axe Attack are grossly overpowered enhancements. Where an elf gets bonus attack and damage to a longsword and rapier, a dwarf gets battleaxe, throwing axe, greataxe, handaxe and DWARVEN AXE. Both enhancements are 2 points at first rank and 4 at second rank. How are they the same number of points when a dwarf gets almost three times the weapons where the damage is applicable, especially when one such weapon does a d10 of damage, meaning even if it were that ONE weapon, which they gain as a free proficiency, it should still be a more expensive enhancement as d10+2 is better than d8+2 without a shadow of a doubt.



d10+2 isn't as much of an advantage over d8+2 (or even d6+2), as critting on a 19-20 or an 18-20 is an advantage over critting on 20 only.

The extra damage from weapon effects makes 2 or 4 (and that's maximum) points of base damage more or less irrelevant.

I agree with the rest of the post though.

Yaga_Nub
12-06-2007, 09:04 AM
Because their natural aptitude is with heavier armors allowing them to get a bit more flexibility out of them than others would. Lighter armors they're no more proficient with than anyone else.

I mean, you could come up with a reason that makes sense. You just don't want there to be one. Just like I don't want there to be a reason that they're better with all armor ever (which you could also come up with if you wanted to).

In general, it's relatively easy to justify most things of this nature (assuming they're moderately reasonable) and it comes down to a question of game balance. I mean, you could justify my above "Improved Smallness" line for halflings. But it wouldn't be a good idea to put it in the game.

First, yes I read the rest of the posts I just wanted to point something out to see if it makes sense.

I think that MT hit the nail on th head by saying that their natural aptitude is with HEAVIER armors. But we should be talking about the metals themselves not just the armor. I'll give a real world example to show where I'm coming from and everyone tell me if it makes sense.

I play softball a lot during the spring and summer. I really don't pay much attention to the actual weight of the bats I use but I always like heavier bats. My team has two bats that look nearly the same but one is 4 to 6 ounces lighter (if I remember correctly haven't looked at them since July). I know after the first swing if I'm using the lighter bat (and change right away) because I'm always early on my swing. Because I'm used to the heavier bat, my swing speed is faster than I'm used to when I'm using the lighter bat. So it throws me off. Could I adjust, absolutely but then I would either need to practice a while with the lighter bat or force myself to wait just a little longer before swinging. Now that example isn't exactly right but since I can't compare a bat made out of iron, steel, aluminum, titatnium, etc. you'll have give me a little leeway with weight being the comparable factor.

Could an argument be made that since elves are the race usually associated with mithral they should have an armor master enhancement that is active only when wearing mithral armor and the dwarfs have an enhancement that is active only when wearing armor not made of mithral?

Mercules
12-06-2007, 09:50 AM
Could an argument be made that since elves are the race usually associated with mithral they should have an armor master enhancement that is active only when wearing mithral armor and the dwarfs have an enhancement that is active only when wearing armor not made of mithral?

Well, except in the fluff Elves are not always the ones related to mithral.

Tolkien example. Mines of Moria. Why were the Dwarves so interested in reclaiming the mines? It was full of mithral. The shirt Frodo received was made for an elven prince. The Dwarves gave it to Bilbo from Smaug's horde and Smaug captured it from the dwarves. The dwarves also outfit themselves in shining mithral mail for the Battle of 5 Armies.

D&D example. Streams of Silver was the book. The companions of the hall were looking for Bruenor's ancient home. Name of the home? Mithral Hall. Bruenor found armor worn by his ancestor and wore it through the rest of their adventures, mithral armor. Ageis Fang, Bruenor's greatest creation, had a mithral head and admantite handle and all the dwarves of Mithral Hall were outfited with mithral armor and weapons.

Raithe
12-06-2007, 10:30 AM
I don't think people are understanding that it sucks all the fun out of the game for people if they have to play a race they don't like just to be on par with the more elite fighters in the game.


Some interesting notes relevant to this thread:

1) This thread has made me start looking for dwarves while online. I examined several Reaver Raid group makeups last night as they were forming, including one in which I took part. The race most represented was drow by far, and even among melee types humans and drow outnumbered dwarves.

2) I've been reading a little of my main server's forum. Take a look at this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1449937#post1449937). The barbarian build using the wounding of puncturing equipment is an elf (not even drow), and the player who created it claims its the best melee killer in the game.

Differences and imbalance in this game between characters is mostly related to gear. Someone is always going to have better gear makeup if they have more time to spend online, so why worry about race? If you play these games long enough, you eventually realize that the most fun in playing is to be had when characters have deficiencies that need the compensation of player skill.

MysticTheurge
12-06-2007, 10:44 AM
The race most represented was drow by far

Drow are a whole 'nother story. :(

Yaga_Nub
12-06-2007, 10:58 AM
Well, except in the fluff Elves are not always the ones related to mithral.

Tolkien example. Mines of Moria. Why were the Dwarves so interested in reclaiming the mines? It was full of mithral. The shirt Frodo received was made for an elven prince. The Dwarves gave it to Bilbo from Smaug's horde and Smaug captured it from the dwarves. The dwarves also outfit themselves in shining mithral mail for the Battle of 5 Armies.

D&D example. Streams of Silver was the book. The companions of the hall were looking for Bruenor's ancient home. Name of the home? Mithral Hall. Bruenor found armor worn by his ancestor and wore it through the rest of their adventures, mithral armor. Ageis Fang, Bruenor's greatest creation, had a mithral head and admantite handle and all the dwarves of Mithral Hall were outfited with mithral armor and weapons.

I was using this as part of the reasoning.


But iconicly, mithral is more of an elven metal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#elvenChain).

I don't disagree that other races can and do use mithral or that in certain settings other races can and o use mithral. I do agree with MT's point though that it is probably more iconic of the elves than anyone else. When you hear the term "elven chain mail" you automatically know it's mithral if you've been playing DnD for a while.

The main point of the post is that there could be reasons why DAM is useful only in heavy, mithral, cold iron, or diamond armor. Let's adjust DAM to use those reasons if it makes sense to do so. I'd rather do that than see the whole enhancement line taken out. If you use some reasons to make DAM useful in certain armor, it also allows the devs to develop other Armor Mastery lines for other races using some of the same reasoning. That seems like it be a little more reasonable than no AM for any one else other than Dwarves.

I think WF should have AM because they have known nothing different about their bodies from the day they were created. Even a dwarf has to take his/her armor off at some time and then when he/she puts it back on there is an adjustment time. WF always have their armor on.

BurnerD
12-06-2007, 11:16 AM
I don't think it is fair that the halflings can't reach the cookie jar on the top shelf... they need a height enhancement... (humor intended)

As for the dwarves it is ARMOR class.. and has more to do with understanding the capabilities of your armor and strength rather than true dexterity. It is about who has the capability to move better when encumbered with armor for a variety of reasons

Real suits of armor (plate) weighed well over 100 pounds is some cases.... who do you think would have the capability to move better in plate armor? the incredibly dextrous but slight ballet dancer? or the muscle bound weightlifter? it is not all about natural dexterity.. it is about situational dexterity.... dunno if it makes sense or not, but best I can explain it...

I think the way to balance things out would be to give elves better combat enhancements/abilities for caster classes. In my opinion an elven caster should have similar melee capability to a cleric.... great caster.. tier 2 melee. I am also not arguing that dwarves aren't overpowered.. they definitely have some advantages over other races in this game system imo....

Mercules
12-06-2007, 11:20 AM
I was using this as part of the reasoning.



I don't disagree that other races can and do use mithral or that in certain settings other races can and o use mithral. I do agree with MT's point though that it is probably more iconic of the elves than anyone else. When you hear the term "elven chain mail" you automatically know it's mithral if you've been playing DnD for a while.

The main point of the post is that there could be reasons why DAM is useful only in heavy, mithral, cold iron, or diamond armor. Let's adjust DAM to use those reasons if it makes sense to do so. I'd rather do that than see the whole enhancement line taken out. If you use some reasons to make DAM useful in certain armor, it also allows the devs to develop other Armor Mastery lines for other races using some of the same reasoning. That seems like it be a little more reasonable than no AM for any one else other than Dwarves.

I think WF should have AM because they have known nothing different about their bodies from the day they were created. Even a dwarf has to take his/her armor off at some time and then when he/she puts it back on there is an adjustment time. WF always have their armor on.

I would rather the Enhancements not stack the way they do. Thus Dwarves, known for being adept in armor, can get a bonus no matter the class and Fighters, known for frequently wearing armor, can get a bonus no matter the race. Maybe make them stack, up to a limit?

MysticTheurge
12-06-2007, 11:54 AM
Real suits of armor (plate) weighed well over 100 pounds is some cases.... who do you think would have the capability to move better in plate armor? the incredibly dextrous but slight ballet dancer? or the muscle bound weightlifter? it is not all about natural dexterity.. it is about situational dexterity.... dunno if it makes sense or not, but best I can explain it...

It makes sense, but you also have to ask if the muscle bound weightlifter should be able to move as dextrously in full plate as the ballet dancer is able to in slightly-constricting clothes.

Yaga_Nub
12-06-2007, 12:17 PM
I would rather the Enhancements not stack the way they do. Thus Dwarves, known for being adept in armor, can get a bonus no matter the class and Fighters, known for frequently wearing armor, can get a bonus no matter the race. Maybe make them stack, up to a limit?

So currently DAM goes up to level III and so does FAM III.

What if DAM only went up to level II and FAM II had a pre-req of FAM I or DAM II and FAM III had a pre-req of FAM II.

That way the most a dwarf could have is +4 to AC if he is a fighter, which is still better than any other race, or they would would have a max of +2 to AC for all other classes, which I think is still better than any other race.

Does that make any sense?

BurnerD
12-06-2007, 12:58 PM
It makes sense, but you also have to ask if the muscle bound weightlifter should be able to move as dextrously in full plate as the ballet dancer is able to in slightly-constricting clothes.

Good point, let me see if I can explain my thinking here... these are my terms as they relate to my logic...

Unarmored dexterity in regards to Armor Class is based purely on being evasive.. meaning making the attacker miss.

Armored dexterity not only relates to making an attacker miss, but also if they do hit you maximizing the effectiveness of the armor you are wearing by positioning yourself so that the armor absorbs the attack.

I guess I could argue that unarmored pure dex builds should suffer a penalty in close quarters, or crowded condition combat, as they may not have the freedom of movement necessary to avoid attacks. To my knowledge this game does not take that into account since we can basically stand on top of one another in combat. Think of the slower boxer who tries to pin his quicker opponent against the ropes so he can cancel out the quickness.

In a one of one battle, or in an open area I could fully agree that the dexterity advantage of an elf should probably be much greater than it is in this game. In a dungeon hallway fighting in close quarters melee ... different story. In armored fighter in close quarters can apply his "armored dexterity" to use the strong points of his armor to take the attack.

This is an interesting discussion and I am not sure what the right answer really is... I'm not sure all of the combat variables fit cleanly into this system (DDO).

Twerpp
12-06-2007, 01:18 PM
An elven fighter only needs a starting dex of 13 to max his bonus in mithral full plate. cost him 3 points. It would take a dwarf 13 stat points to beat an elf by ONE. AC. POINT.

I am assuming +1 tomes. If I werent the spread is 4 point elf, 16 points cost for dwarf. Worse.

So how overpowered is it really?

Mercules
12-06-2007, 02:18 PM
Good point, let me see if I can explain my thinking here... these are my terms as they relate to my logic...

Unarmored dexterity in regards to Armor Class is based purely on being evasive.. meaning making the attacker miss.

Armored dexterity not only relates to making an attacker miss, but also if they do hit you maximizing the effectiveness of the armor you are wearing by positioning yourself so that the armor absorbs the attack.

I guess I could argue that unarmored pure dex builds should suffer a penalty in close quarters, or crowded condition combat, as they may not have the freedom of movement necessary to avoid attacks. To my knowledge this game does not take that into account since we can basically stand on top of one another in combat. Think of the slower boxer who tries to pin his quicker opponent against the ropes so he can cancel out the quickness.

In a one of one battle, or in an open area I could fully agree that the dexterity advantage of an elf should probably be much greater than it is in this game. In a dungeon hallway fighting in close quarters melee ... different story. In armored fighter in close quarters can apply his "armored dexterity" to use the strong points of his armor to take the attack.

This is an interesting discussion and I am not sure what the right answer really is... I'm not sure all of the combat variables fit cleanly into this system (DDO).

Part of the issue is HOW D&D presents armor.

In D&D armor allows you to avoid more blows, the heavier the armor the less likely you are to take damage. 3.5 changed this a bit by limiting what your dex would do to help you with armor, but the WAY the broke it down was slightly ********. Combined with Str letting you hit better... it's just a really "Old School" way of thinking about stats and how to determine if you can hit something or not. They streamlined the AC THACO thing, but didn't "fix" it.

There are several variants in other books, Unearthed Arcanum for example, that offer alternate systems that would be better suited to emulating the effects of wearing armor. The Armor as DR (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedDefence.html) option is what we tend to use as a system. This makes smaller bonuses worth more as the difference between padded and full plate is only 3 points. You could then revamp Armor Mastery and possibly give one class/race an armor mastery that allows additional bonuses to the evasion aspect of the armor(harder to hit) and another bonus to a race/class that gives a bonus to the DR portion of the armor. Barbarians, for example have DR/- which stacks with armor DR in this system. Shields give evasion bonuses instead of DR.

So...

Sword&Board Elven Fighter in a +5 Breastplate with a +5 Large Shield and Dodge
26 AC - DR 2/-

Dwarven Barbarian in +5 Fullplate
19 AC - DR 4+(likely 9-10)/-

So, the Elven Fighter is going to be hit much less than the Dwarven Barbarian, but when hit the Dwarven Barbarian will take less damage than the Elven Fighter. Balanced. Then they just need to adjust enhancements to fit maybe giving Elves a way to get more AC from armor and Dwarves a way to get more DR from armor.

MysticTheurge
12-06-2007, 02:25 PM
There are several variants in other books, Unearthed Arcanum for example, that offer alternate systems that would be better suited to emulating the effects of wearing armor. The Armor as DR (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedDefence.html) option is what we tend to use as a system.

This may be a better system overall, but it seems unlikely that DDO was make such a drastic change.

Especially since it would involve essentially rebalancing every monster in the game.

Mercules
12-06-2007, 03:00 PM
This may be a better system overall, but it seems unlikely that DDO was make such a drastic change.

Especially since it would involve essentially rebalancing every monster in the game.

I know, but they went with Remedial D&D and one of the things I dislike. That system also helps out characters that don't wear armor like Wizards, since they can get DR elsewhere(Stoneskin) and suddenly AC boosting magic items offer a good deal of protection. Bracers of Armor are useful. ;)

I greatly prefer Gurps combat to D&Ds but 3.5 greatly improved the rules, with the exception of Armor is deflection AC. DDO leaving out Touch Attacks and armor effects on movement and everything else made AC from armor too valuable and then turned around and undervalued it in Mod 5.

Bekki
12-06-2007, 03:19 PM
I mind. If I liked elves being treated unfairly I'd still be playing WoW :P

Ouch! :eek:

lucid8
02-17-2008, 09:43 AM
One quick question CAN A DWARVEN FIGHTER DISPLACE HIMSELF. Nuff Said

MysticTheurge
02-17-2008, 09:53 AM
One quick question CAN A DWARVEN FIGHTER DISPLACE HIMSELF. Nuff Said

I dunno, what's the UMD check on a wand?

You also have to ask yourself what the dwarf gets for those two feats that the elf spent on dragonmarks and whether it was worth it.

galoor
02-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Ok, hi all, my twopence worth.

I really dont have a problem with most of the things dwarves get, as they are sorta inline with the race, the only one i have to say is out of whack is DAM, it just shouldnt be there, as MT says it should be DAA. They are less encumbered by heavier armour means that they suffer less penalties when wearing it, not gain a higher AC, all the people who say "well you too can play a dwarf" well seriously guys, that isnt the point, someone made an enhancement that just isnt inline with the dwarf race and it needs correcting.
Some of the other races could do with better enhancements too, but that isnt the point of this thread.

krud
02-17-2008, 11:38 AM
I dunno, what's the UMD check on a wand?

You also have to ask yourself what the dwarf gets for those two feats that the elf spent on dragonmarks and whether it was worth it.

They have displacement wands? when did this happen? Where do i buy one?

to the OP - As far as playing an elf warrior, you can still make a perfectly capable elf fighter. One who can still fight well in end game. No one is forcing anyone to make a dwarf. You want to make an elf fighter go ahead. An elf with a rapier or longsword can still fight well enough. "B-B-But johnny over there got a bigger piece of cake than me... WAAAAAH!" If all you want to do is focus on the numbers you will always find something to complain about. Perhaps the only change that I could envision for an elf is to combine the ranged and melee enhancements into one line. Other than that we are just making stuff up to satisfy those with stat OCD, who are constantly looking at the grass over the fence. The problem is they will never be satisfied.

EinarMal
02-17-2008, 11:53 AM
They have displacement wands? when did this happen? Where do i buy one?



You can buy all the scrolls you want so the point still stands...

Emili
02-17-2008, 12:57 PM
Why have people pulled this thread back up from the depths? The largest problem here is that the Dev's felt the raical lines should follow the favored class of any race. They made enhancements the equal of feats if not more powerful then them... and then put some meaning behind favored class - which is not suppose to work that way. The should have kept the made class enhancements follow feat or class lines and racial lines follow only those areas of influence of a given race... ie.) dwaves being sturdy so are harder to trip... etc...

Invalid_86
02-17-2008, 01:04 PM
Or just bypass the problem entirely and not have enhancements. They aren't in D&D, and have lead to these sort of imbalances as well as bloated mobs. This should have been thought about when the game was launched, and again when enhancements were revised.

krud
02-17-2008, 01:06 PM
You can buy all the scrolls you want so the point still stands...

What? that a dwarven fighter could umd a displacement scroll? and also pass the arcane spell failure while wearing mith FP?

A fighter has plenty of extra feats to afford the two dragonmarks. Certainly doesn't make an elf fighter uber, but still it is a pretty decent bonus to have

btw - after looking at DAM a little more, I would not be in favor of removing it, but would make it cap at DAMII. This would be in line with the racial weapon bonuses which currently cap at II also.

QuantumFX
02-17-2008, 01:26 PM
Is there a good emote that looks like a DDO character is dealing with a headache? I think I'll photoshop an inspirational image that I'd like to call "Not this Chipmunk Funk again".

Karavek
02-17-2008, 06:29 PM
Since my first days of playing PnP Elves captured my interest as a favorite to play, and dwarves where my favored allies. It was always a great roleplay challenge those first meetings finding middle ground to see eye to eye on gaining the others respect etc. From the beginning the main difference was always the tendancy for my elves to favor light armor for every logical reason.Being able to move much faster then a heavy armored dwarf who suffered from several speed penalties,Light armor was able to be worn while resting with little discomfort allowing me to be much safer in surprise random encounters, and most logically when floors fell in and chasms needed to be leapt of the pair it was I who could make it and attempt a save of my ally. Sadly even the penalty to speed did not make it to DDO, since my first days in the mmo which should of been the best mmo for me I found such things as dwarves being able to outrun my elf by owning a simple 5% speed item to be enough to disgust me into setting down the game for a few days. Granting dwarves any kind of bonuses for having a High dex is very out of place in a natural ability or even training, dwarves do not train to avoid hits they thrive on battle(any dwarf fan who does not idolize Dwarven BattleRagers as the epitome of dwarf combat skill are frauds) I have little prob with being out DPSd by them axe weilders But I do not like being out ran, out leapt, and outshined in every way in a fight with my elven Fighter/Rogue,Ranger/Rogue,Paladin/Rogue,Fighter/Pal/Rogue,and Ranger/Rogue/Pal. Everyone of my builds is at best a back up warrior in the party and when dwarf tanks are about cant ever get in a party, not from lack of ability but simple numbers. There is not nearly enough disadvantage in the game for wearing heavy cumbersome armor(try adding heat metal to the spell list and see what happens to Shiny fullplate when it turns to molten slag). Let the dwarves be heavy hit points and a high AC from physical, add alot more touch attacks (enemies with blazing energy weapons would be fun to see to a light armored high dex ftr like me lol) give Dwarves a rage line instead of something making them have a reason for high dex. Add more areas where leaping very high and long matters(maybe even increase the skill penalties on full plate to clinch the issue) I know many dwarf players are just MIN/Maxers not real ans of thier chosen race. As for Drow yes they have nice stats but they are an unlockable race adn a 32 pnt dwarf is far scarier even then a drow. Well that is my 2cents for now.

krud
02-17-2008, 07:12 PM
... I know many dwarf players are just MIN/Maxers not real ans of thier chosen race.

If halflings got those kinds of bonuses instead of dwarves, we'd see a whole bunch of halfling melee types. Threads like this have nothing to do with the world of DDO. It's all about number crunching. "I want to have the absolute best stats possible, gimme whatever fits". And god forbid if some change comes along where that build is no longer the absolute best. It inevitably brings out a whole bunch of kicking and screaming "DDO is forcing me to reroll so I can be the best there is once again".

Vormaerin
02-17-2008, 08:25 PM
Heh, exactly. I even recall a preemptive whine post begging the devs not to make half orcs strong enough to "obsolete" all the current fighter builds. Umm, what? Characters able to handle all the content on elite aren't obsolete if someone else comes along and can also handle all the content on elite with some minor advantage in DPS. Who cares? You still handle all the content on elite.

Its NOT POSSIBLE to have balance and variety when the only criterion is "being the best". Everything will be rated and whatever isn't "the best" will be considered gimped. So either everyone has to have the same advantages or the advantages generally have to be inconsequential. Else you'll have threads of this sort.

I first heard this "dwarves are the best at everything" argument in p&p; its basis being that folks valued the 10-20% more hp and other mods that dwarves get over the synergies gotten from having a racial stat that matches your class' Prime attribute.

Can you build an elven or halfling fighter that rocks the bad guys at high level? Yes. If you need there to be more than that, then you are doomed to disappointment.

Nevthial
02-17-2008, 08:42 PM
I play a Drow Paladin/Fighter that I would take over any dwarf. I love my Drow warrior! Give me a Drow over a Dwarf of equal level every time.
( Besides, Elves and Drow are more pleasant to the eye. :) )

Wulf_Ratbane
02-18-2008, 09:32 AM
( Besides, Elves and Drow are more pleasant to the eye. :) )

Man, I disagree. I'd play a lot less if I didn't get to watch my female dwarf fighter shake her booty all night.

/mixalot

Aspenor
02-18-2008, 10:08 AM
Elven dragonmarks are a vicious feat for an elven fighting class.

I have a buddy with a pally that buffs to 63 AC and has 6 displacements per day. That's virtually unhittable.

Aeneas
02-18-2008, 10:25 AM
Green steel longswords have tightened up the melee damage gap a bit (not to mention green steel longbows). If you don't mind the grinding for mass amounts of ingredients in the shroud you could potentially outfit a new elven ranger with a pair of GS longswords and all the ingredients necessary to totally twink them out at level 8! :eek: You would just need some extremely understanding guildies to hold your hand through the raid prereqs and raid until you got him the shards of power to upgrade (2 small, 2 medium, 2 large is kinda yucky, but imagine how uber he'd be). 12 Ranger would net him all of the TWF feats for free, 4 levels of fighter springs you 3 feats to unlock tempest ranger enhancement lines. All said and done you have 6 extra feats to play with - (least and lesser dragonmarks, imp crit slash, extend, power attack, oversize twf).

Now lets get a little silly to prove a point.

So take a 18 str, 16 dex elf for instance. End game max possible str self buffed is 36 ish (18 +1 fighter + 4 levels + 9 shroud weapon + +2 rams might +3 tome +1 litany) with no short term rage clickies - very respectable. End game max dex with 16 to start is 36 (16+2 enh +3 ranger + +3 tome +9 GS weapon enh +1 litany) so a +13 bonus. Remembering that +8 AC bracers are now available as is the dragon robe if you prefer (i personally don't with yucky repair and subpar secondary bonuses) you can achieve an astronomical AC, stay basically permanently displaced, and dish out serious damage with full resists, freedom of movement, extra damage from favored enemy enhancements and ram's might, max jump, a shoddy animal companion, barkskin, increased attack speed, manyshot, improved precise shot, and diehard.

AC breakdown
10 base
13 dex
+8 AC bracers
+5 prot item
+5 natural armor from bark
+4 insight AC from shroud weapon
+1 dodge
+3 chattering ring
+4 shield clicky/wand
+2 tempest
---------
That's 55 AC on an offensive minded build. Switching in CE for PA you could hit 60.

60 AC is a pretty incredible number self buffed(Even 56 is pretty damn good if you're not into clicking that shield clicky)

throw in recitation, haste, paladin aura, inspire heroics and you're over 70.

So now combine that 60 AC with 5 clicks of a 3 minute displacement spell and your enemies are either hitting an infinite AC or AC 60 to get a piece of you while you're whacking away at a to hit bonus of well over 30 with a pair of devastating weapons not to mention that fearsome of heavy fort robe you're wearing just in case they do get a piece of you.

An elven ranger despite losing out HP and fort saves-wise to a dwarf is potentially every bit as strong as the dwarf if not stronger.

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 10:32 AM
totally twink them out at level 8! :eek:

The ML on green steel items was increased to 11.

Aeneas
02-18-2008, 10:34 AM
The ML on green steel items was increased to 11.


BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Retroactive, MT?

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 10:37 AM
Retroactive, MT?

Dunno. I made mine after the change.

Aspenor
02-18-2008, 10:38 AM
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Retroactive, MT?

Not sure how you were planning on getting an 8th level character flagged AND into the shroud, where you would be completely useless to your party.

The green steel items bind the moment they are upgraded inside the raid, you can't upgrade them and pass them to other characters.

Aeneas
02-18-2008, 10:42 AM
note my proviso regarding extremely understanding guildies. :p

MysticTheurge
02-18-2008, 10:42 AM
Not sure how you were planning on getting an 8th level character flagged AND into the shroud, where you would be completely useless to your party.

The green steel items bind the moment they are upgraded inside the raid, you can't upgrade them and pass them to other characters.

I think he was just going to use an un-upgraded green steel item, which are better than some of their non-green-steel counterparts.


note my proviso regarding extremely understanding guildies. :p

Or that.

Aeneas
02-18-2008, 10:43 AM
also please read my sillyness disclaimer.

Emili
02-18-2008, 11:05 AM
What? that a dwarven fighter could umd a displacement scroll? and also pass the arcane spell failure while wearing mith FP?

A fighter has plenty of extra feats to afford the two dragonmarks. Certainly doesn't make an elf fighter uber, but still it is a pretty decent bonus to have

btw - after looking at DAM a little more, I would not be in favor of removing it, but would make it cap at DAMII. This would be in line with the racial weapon bonuses which currently cap at II also.

I highly doubt many a dwarf take all III levels anyway... what the class/racial equal enhancements really serve at doing well is to free ap's to take other enhancements.

Ie.
Fighter Armour Mastery I = 2ap, II = 4ap, III = 6ap and Dwarven Armour Mastery I = 2ap, II = 4ap, III = 6ap

Most dwarves will not use 12 ap's on armour master (doubt many of them have the dex anyway) They will however do FAM I + DAM II = total of 6ap. Compared to another race they need to spend 12ap on FAM III to arrive at equal benefit while the dwarf have 6 free ap to spend somewhere else (like Str III, or better saves or thier axe attack for instance). This works with toughness lines as well... therefore the dwarf is a much more flexible and easier rounded melee because you may buy things cheaper. Then to top it off because enhancements are so easy to respec as game mechanic and content change it is much easier to round up and refocus the character morphing it into something still viable as the game changes... whereas races which were feat dependent for such have a harder time adapting.

The power of a dwarf fighter is in it's flexibility and versitilty due to it being able to spend relitively less ap's for the equal of any other race in the enhancement area... freeing aps to take some more enhancements for other aspects of melee. The power of any other dwarven melee - Rarb, Pally, Ranger - is you have some dwarven enhancements (contain some fighter class equal enhancements) to play with also. Thus a dwarf is an easier melee character to build. Sword and board - dwarf cover it well as do many other races, THF - dwarf cover very well, TWF - they cover that very well. Drow cover TWF very good, Elves bow's and course sword and board.

Emili
02-18-2008, 11:27 AM
Green steel longswords have tightened up the melee damage gap a bit (not to mention green steel longbows). If you don't mind the grinding for mass amounts of ingredients in the shroud you could potentially outfit a new elven ranger with a pair of GS longswords and all the ingredients necessary to totally twink them out at level 8! :eek:

This is crazy talk:p

I mean seriously do you really suppose people will plan a character all about a green steel weapon? Take a level eight character in the shroud? They cannot even use the item until level 12.

+5 Green Steel Morningstar
+5 Green Steel Shortsword (1d8)
+5 Green Steel Great Crossbow
+5 Green Steel Longbow (1d10)
+5 Green Steel Greatsword (3d6)
+5 Green Steel Maul (2d8)
+5 Green Steel Warhammer
+5 Green Steel Longsword
+5 Green Steel Dagger
+5 Green Steel Scepter
+5 Green Steel Khopesh (1d10)
+5 Green Steel Throw Hammer

Now then ... the bow is nice, but really only for a ranger character. Longswords are basically crappy imo when it comes to a dps based build (it's an ok weapon for a secondary backing melee not for a main dps)... four basic weapons cross my mind on one handers... Khopesh, Rapier, D Axe and Pick. Greataxe wins for 2handers. I do find it very interesting that we've not a recipie for a rapier or axe among this as of yet. Among the melee weapons rapier is the best weapon you can toss into elven hands.

Aeneas
02-18-2008, 11:38 AM
Elfs get +2 attack and damage with enhancements on longswords so they do better minimum damage, equal maximum damage (to GS khopesh and on non-crits of course), and do it more often due to a higher to-hit. And i posted that before i realized they changed min level on GS weapons to 12 or whatever - they were 8 last week. All recipes have been tried, those weapons everyone is clamoring for (axes, heavy picks, and rapiers) are not on the list and were there green steel rapiers i would agree with you wholeheartedly.

also i do agree that most things i say can be categorized as "crazy talk"

Karavek
02-20-2008, 06:22 PM
Lets look at a few basic values not the high end ones right off and see the balance and inherent logic that are present.
we will use padded and full plate armors as the basis. As well as PnP factors not present in DDO which affect balancing.


Pnt<1.Padded armor AC+1.Max Dex+8,Skill check0, No movement speed penalty,Weight 10 Lbs.
Full plate AC+8.Max Dex+1,Skill check -6, speed reduction from 30 to 20, weight 50 lbs.

Right off we can see that for all that solid armor which is not negated while you are held etc. you are very heavy and slow by comparison.

Pnt<2. Let us add in shields.PnP buckler +1 AC,-1 skill check, weight 5lbs( and can still hold a weapon in the hand)
DDO tower shields possess a High base ac(actual number escapes me atm) skill check-10 weight 45 lbs(last 2 stats are PnP).
We see the trend continues that for heavy armor which isnt lost when surprised or held you sacrifice alot of weigt and skill.

From here let us consider a few more PnP points. A character with an 18 str(like most starting dwarves) suffer medium encumberance after only 101 pnds of gear on them meaning almsot any weapon they choose will put them over the edge and suffer further penalties. These penalties would not stack on top of the armor penalties but would be in place if he overcame his armors actual penalties in some other way such as mithril(granted would lighten his load but other gear would still likely be enough to keep him encumbered),dwarven,and fighter armor mastery would all be moot if he was encumbered by carrying several throwing axes and any survival gear.

Lets keep in mind that you can clearly see how light and heavy armor are still meant to provide equal ac numbers one just is based on taking a hit the other dodging it.

Now we move on to some very simple factors when considering damage or DPS as its called in MMO land. I have to concur with someones point that it largely is the weapons enchantments not its base numbers that matter much. I myself have aquired a nice dagger collection from the brokerage houses since so many just vendor them thinking no one uses a dagger to fight with. there is however some exceptions to this rule mainly the khopesh and axes.These weapons are capable of truly fearsome dmg on crits with thier X3 and when combined with certain enchantment combinations like holy burst of maiming can deliver some really high numbers just from the enchantments nature on a X3 crit weapon. When combined with taht these are weapons of high strength users not finnesse warriors its clear all they really need to consider is making sure a finnesse warriors favorite enchantments of wounding are more effective against big bad bosses who seem all to often to have stat dmg immunity and rendering the swashbucklers feeling impotent next to the hackers.

current fact is top warrior builds currently unclude the following: Dwarf Pal 13 rge 2 ftr1,Warforged pal 13 rge2 sorc1 thats it I have seen first hand such builds do solo on elite of some of the toughest Loot grinds like Invaders elite with no sweat not even blinking when they see high cr beholders and cut them down like paper with little injury to self, I have fought alongside many drow paladin rges and such and seen not one perform anywhere near on par with these two races with these builds. Perhaps if Drow SR worked as in PnP they could become strong enough against casters to fill the role of sneaking up and engaging the casters just before the party rushes a mob to draw spell aggro at least as well as these two paragons of the DDO world can.

krud
02-20-2008, 08:35 PM
I highly doubt many a dwarf take all III levels anyway... what the class/racial equal enhancements really serve at doing well is to free ap's to take other enhancements.

Ie.
Fighter Armour Mastery I = 2ap, II = 4ap, III = 6ap and Dwarven Armour Mastery I = 2ap, II = 4ap, III = 6ap
...


Understood, but I would not want to remove access to DAM for dwarven paladins, rangers, or clerics. Obviously, the best solution, which I believe was mentioned previously, is to keep the enhancements as is, but make them non-stackable, i.e. you take either one line or the other. This would keep bonuses/AP costs the same for everyone, yet allow armor mastery for ALL dwarves (clerics, rangers and paladins included), and only to fighters of all the other races.

Sheezgame
02-20-2008, 10:34 PM
I don't mind that they are different, I would always have thought dwarves were better close combat fighters, it's what they do best.

My main chars are elves, and I don't mind that dwarves are more powerful, why shouldn't they be? Elves are probably stronger with magic and get elven arcanum and such. There is no reason why each race should be equal at each class.

Angelus_dead
02-20-2008, 11:15 PM
My main chars are elves, and I don't mind that dwarves are more powerful, why shouldn't they be?
More powerful- sure.
But why are dwarves more nimble?

In D&D, the prestige class to get more max dex bonus from medium armor is elf-only.

sigtrent
02-20-2008, 11:33 PM
More powerful- sure.
But why are dwarves more nimble?

In D&D, the prestige class to get more max dex bonus from medium armor is elf-only.

They arn't mroe nimble they are less encumbered by armor. In D&D dwarves never suffer movement penalties from armor. They can tumble in medium and heavy armor which no other race can do. Armor mastery is a measure of their abbility to wear and adjust thier armor without interrearing with their movements. Except when wearing heavy armor it is actualy kind of hard for dwarves to take a lot of advantage of armor mastery.

Sheezgame
02-21-2008, 12:40 AM
More powerful- sure.
But why are dwarves more nimble?

In D&D, the prestige class to get more max dex bonus from medium armor is elf-only.

Yeah fair enough... I think maybe dwarves are fine as they are, but elves really need an enhancement that increases the max bonus from armor which they should get regardless of what dwarves have. To be honest I'm surprised we don't have one already!

Assuming this did happen however, what else are dwarves good at? Maybe they were originally worried dwarves wouldn't get played enough (people tend to fancy elves for aesthetics). I haven't played my dwarf enough to comment on this.

MysticTheurge
02-21-2008, 12:52 AM
They arn't mroe nimble they are less encumbered by armor. In D&D dwarves never suffer movement penalties from armor. They can tumble in medium and heavy armor which no other race can do. Armor mastery is a measure of their abbility to wear and adjust thier armor without interrearing with their movements. Except when wearing heavy armor it is actualy kind of hard for dwarves to take a lot of advantage of armor mastery.

All of the things you suggest make a logical background for Dwarven Armored Agility.

There's really nothing to support Dwarven Armor Mastery as it's implemented currently.

ViVid7th
02-21-2008, 01:21 AM
What needs to be done is to figure out what is the fluff (aka, lore) for Fighters having Armor Mastery. I would have to guess that is extensive training and familiarity with armor and knowing how to make the most of it.

Then take into account that Dwarves are a martial race. Metal and Stone composed the lives of their ancestors, and Dwarves follow tradition. "The past can never be forgotten" sort of thing. These traditions are fine tuned and honed by the dwarves of the proper chaste. Getting to the short of it, Dwarves generally shun Arcane magic in favor of Martial and Divine. Due to Arcane Spell Failure having no effect on Divine, and Clerics being expected in general to protect both the body and soul, armor and it's use has become commonplace among Dwarves. A dwarf is much more likely to start wearing armor at a much younger age and learn how to use it.
<Edit> That is to say that dwarves pick the line for what their life long profession will be then practice and fine tune all aspects of that. It is the reason why Dwarven Arms and Armor has such a strong reputation for being the best, not only has each individual Blacksmith been doing it for decades compared to their other counterparts (save elves) but each master teaches their apprentice not only the basics and advanced methods but also pass down personal tricks and secrets. If you are going to be in a more mobile profession, being taught armor is the standard.</edit>

Now add in that the most common armor used for defending and front line combat is Half Plate (Yes, Full Plate is better, but Full Plate requires each suit to be tailored to the wearer.). Half Plate provides the highest AC without requiring a dex bonus, meaning that the average person will always get the same amount of protection. Knowing how to get the most out of armor by turning your armor into the blows, maximizing coverage at the strike point is a way of utilizing your dex through training, not the armor's restiction (Which would be using your dex to avoid the blow and being subject to the armor's restriction). Dwarves normally aren't nimble but rather learn how to make the most of what they have through practice and familiarity.

Considering that I've played way too many fantasy games and each has their own little tweak to their races, I may be mistaken on most, or all of this. But where does Armored Agility end and Armor Mastery begin? Which situation does one apply through backround and not the other?

Gameplay wise, I do think Armor Mastery should be limited to 2 ranks for Dwarves to match other similar chains.

sigtrent
02-21-2008, 01:24 AM
All of the things you suggest make a logical background for Dwarven Armored Agility.

There's really nothing to support Dwarven Armor Mastery as it's implemented currently.

I don't really see it that way. Armor dex limitations are based on the idea that it is harder to dodge when wearing armor. Dodging is a type of movement essentialy. If dwarves can move well in armor the dex limitiation should be less restrictive for them.

I'm all for giving other races AC bonus lines of some kind...

For elves I'd say they should have a line to get dodge bonuses in light or no armor, halfings.. not sure perhaps a further size ac bonus or such, SF an armor improvement to thier body feats (which they have for mithral already), for humans.. they have their boosts I suppose but perhaps they can get the old dodge/CE bonus lines to build on thier feat advantage.

So each has a way to enhance AC, but each is flavored a bit to the race and usefull in slightly different kinds of buidls.

Dwarves definatley get the best enhancements at the moment and stacking ones at that! But I think the flavor of them is just fine and more or less justified in a kind of "game physics" way.

MysticTheurge
02-21-2008, 08:45 AM
Then take into account that Dwarves are a martial race. Metal and Stone composed the lives of their ancestors, and Dwarves follow tradition.

This is the reason several of us suggested early on that DAM be limited to Heavy Armors or a certain Max Dex (that would effectively limit it to heavier armors).

krud
02-21-2008, 09:27 AM
Then take into account that Dwarves are a martial race. Metal and Stone composed the lives of their ancestors, and Dwarves follow tradition.
Gameplay wise, I do think Armor Mastery should be limited to 2 ranks for Dwarves to match other similar chains.

With the "Dwarf is martial race" thinking it would seem that two separate lines of non-stackable enhancements would be a better fit. As a dwarf you learn the same things about how to use armor that another race needs specialized fighter training to learn. However, you don't learn more by taking what you already know as a dwarf and relearning it as a fighter. DAM I equals the same kind of training you get with FAM I. Like item stacking bonus, you get the better of the two, not both.


This is the reason several of us suggested early on that DAM be limited to Heavy Armors or a certain Max Dex (that would effectively limit it to heavier armors).
This already is happening in practice. There aren't many dextrous dwarven builds running around trying to max out MithBP. I would think the same things you learn about Full plate would apply to mith FP. Also, the above remedy would serve to limit the max dex bonus

Illuminati
02-21-2008, 10:16 AM
I really don't think by itself Dwarven Armor Mastery is the problem, it is just 'all' the stuff that Dwarves get. They need to break it up a little.

Saves: Ill give them the +2 to every save, but Drow/Elves should get as well.

Dwarven Spell Resistance Fortitude 1 (+1 to Fort Saves)
Dwarven Spell Resistance Fortitude 2 (+2 to Fort Saves)
Dwarven Spell Resistance Fortitude 3 (+3 to Fort Saves)

Same with will..

The most broken thing in the game after Human Versatility is the Dwarven Spell Resistance. I don't even mind the Toughness thing, but it should be a little more expensive.

The Dev's will never do that though. They created this Dwarven nightmare and they know too many people would get irked by fixing it. So basically you will see crafting bring some balance (no Dwarf axe), and possible some new enhancements for non dwarfs (halfling stuff, etc.)

krud
02-21-2008, 10:42 AM
I really don't think by itself Dwarven Armor Mastery is the problem, it is just 'all' the stuff that Dwarves get. They need to break it up a little.

So basically you will see crafting bring some balance (no Dwarf axe), and possible some new enhancements for non dwarfs (halfling stuff, etc.)

As emili pointed out, it's the cheapness with which they get it all. Making DAM non-stacking will go a long way because it will make getting evrything more AP restrictive. The least controversial way to even things up is not to remove enhancements, or to add new ones (possibly creating a new uber race) but to change the AP cost (which non-stacking DAM does, as well as breaking up the spell resist line). The same options are available, but one now has to pick and choose which to focus on, instead of taking them all.

Karavek
02-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Some of these post have been saying things like elves jsut want to be dwarves in drag etc. That we who pick elves and drow for flavor should not expect to be a dwarfs match etc. In PnP no dwarf made has ever matched my elves and drow in combat. Why you ask? Simple reasons mostly. Dwarves are slower at base and only get even slower in their preffered medium and heavy armors, allowing an agil elf in light armor easy hit them and run so far away a dwarf will be lucky to reach them in the next round. add in speed powers to both sides elves become just that much faster in the gap(say a hasted elf speed 60 hasted dwarf speed 30. Add in both persuing a PnP pretige class from the OH(oriental hand book) called blade dancer for the elf, give dwarf battle rager the elf now is hasted moving a 120 feet a round, dwarf raging and charging still cant keep up with his 15base+10 speed from rage, doubled from charging(not really a wise tactic btw) and hasted still only hits a 100 and cant touch an elf as he weaves in and away from the poor dwarf who at some point needs to rest while the elf laughs from a high tree and pelts him with a bow for fun before sneaking away stalking the dwarf and jsut gutting him when the rage runs out and leaves him winded.

All this is how any real PnP dwarf vs. Elf fight plays out and since elves with high dex and finesse usually hit a dwarf in plate easier and avoid his hits more often it usually is easy to force a dwarf to yeild and then having earned thier respect as warriors finally become fast friends. It is this that I miss, no dwarf ever respects my elf fighters they say eww why not be a dwarf so you are good.

Elves and other races gained no advantage when dwarves had their speed penalty removed, light armor users gained no advantage when they did not give heavy and medium armor speed penalties either. This game clearly gives speed some advantages but will not use a penalty to fairly disadvantage those who should be. If dwarfs could not keep up they would become less popular for loot runs, xp runs, and zerging in general which the GMs clearly dont want to encourage from alot of the alterations many quest ahve recieved since my last time playing the game. Instead such spells as invisibility recieved a huge nerf making it largely a joke, if you are invis even not sneaking things should not be like oh wait I heard what might have been a foot step there is a invisible man about start swinging within 5 feet of him like i have blind fight feat.

slow down the uber tank, and maybe zerging wouldnt exist in this game, grant the stealthy ninjas the right to avoid battle if they wish. Dont like all the constant over use of a single spell, try making a limit to each spell being used per rest i mean even with an spell point system you could say make spells be castable no more then 10 times each per rest forcing all to use their full spell inventory not just the most cost effective spells.Might force the casters and clerics to remember they to can use weapons and fight. Might even finally be able to tone down the mobs to non insane proportions and feel more like PnP.

The fact is the issue is not elves and dwarves its light vs heavy armor building and the ability to overwhelm foes with multiple blast of a single lvl 1 spell not using the classic big kill spells hardly at all. I so rarely see fire balls and lightning bolts being employed, spells which are the stock and trade spell of most PnP wizards from lvl 5 on. It could also help if you would make wands and potions abit cheaper so people dont just expect a cleric to always heal and buff, I mean come on prepping for a real raid should be costly in self heal potions but not waht they are atm.

rimble
02-22-2008, 12:53 PM
Some of these post have been saying things like elves jsut want to be dwarves in drag etc. That we who pick elves and drow for flavor should not expect to be a dwarfs match etc. In PnP no dwarf made has ever matched my elves and drow in combat. Why you ask? Simple reasons mostly.

Legolassss? Is that you? Or is it Legoullass? I can never keep track. Dryzzezzt maybe?

ViVid7th
02-22-2008, 12:59 PM
Kara, you are right. The biggest disadvantage to being a dwarf is that you are supposed to be slower. The advantage of that is that armor isn't supposed to drop your movement below 20ft. Other races in light armor will still be faster, but if you are trying to make a mobile dwarf it pretty much has to be a monk or barb.

On the other hand, I've built dwarven fighters that will match your elves in combat easily. You may be able to outrun them, but you can't outrange them, and for every 1 attack you get using hit and run I would get 3 at full BAB (4 if hasted). All I have to do is stand near my group's casters to guard them. Now you are facing something that has a higher AC than you, more attacks, and more hitpoints. Even without backup, you would be outmatched.

Assuming a dwarf would go after a PrC to match you is foolish. Best to take the advantages of the race and go for a PrC from there. If your movement is lacking, you either have to sac a magic item slot to make up the speed lost, which anyone can do, or take a core class that increases your base speed, or forget about mobility. It's why there are Race Restricted PrCs, not all races are equal in the same areas.

Then again, that build was an anti-cavalier build. Too many things do ride-by-attacks so this build was designed to adapt to any situation given with extreme prejudice and was weapon heavy to match it's design. I called him Clank.

Again, each race has it's own weaknesses and strengths. Dwarves had a lower base movement, which I'm sure got removed in DDO. But dwarves were always a good choice for rogues and fighers in PnP, along with allot of other races.

Karavek
02-22-2008, 01:34 PM
I actually miss seeing dwarven rogues, bards, and especially wizards. When 3E came out, removing racial restrictions from all classes, many of my dwarf loving friends would play dwarven geomancers(earth magic mages). Unfortunatly due to the enhancment lines in this game no one even considers trying one.

Yes dwarves lack a natural stat bonus fo such casting but can be hardier by far, and with 32pnt builds can still have comparable casting stats to even drow. Dwarven speed penalties acutally encouraged them to be casters since then they didnt need to run down so much and could endure a few arrows or bolts being thrown far better then an elf wizard.

As for someones statment replying to some of my previous points.

1st round high dex elf likely wins iniative, closes uses a Sword breaker( short sword type weapon that does 2d6 damage when sundering) with improved sunder, wrecked your axe and ran out of range of any melee atk you might make. Since its first round you dont get to ready an atk for my coming in range. No allies 1 on 1, you pack maybe a few throwing axes(wieghing a hefty 1 pound each) My bow and arrows much light and many more rounds of ammo. I also assume the only magic item involved is a potion of haste on each side otherwise common items, this is PnP scenerio after all.I also am using largely 3E not 3.5E rules as even though I bought the books i felt everything with the exception of the bards using light armor without casting failure was pure capitalistic corruption to put out 3 new core books and a slew of new revamped options books and take alot more money for little quality change. So I have real haste which lets me take an extra move or atk action meaning I ran up to you and had a full atk action sundering your weapon for certain and having spring atk still ran away quite effectivly with my super speed while you are sitting there going " But... you broke me great great great grandfathers axe!" Which likely could break a young dwarfs morale poor little hairy guy, lucky now he understands the skills of an elf warrior respects me and now we can group together on the quest the DM made but couldnt get going due to our natural racial dislikes( which we always Rped to the fullest). Sure maybe you won init was smart enough to ready a single atk for when i closed with you and maybe with your strength which is certain to be lower then my dex in most real stat placemtn from random dice rolled stats( wwhich granted could of favored the dwarf as randomess can) you might get that one hit on me injurying me, maybe you tried a trip which I likely did not fall to with my higher Dex vs Str. But all your side requires alot of dice luck where as mine is the one who trust in the way of Rudd lady of luck through perfection of skills.

Not to mention the often made and valid point that in DDO dwarves jsut dont ahve to work hard for their overwhelming melee bonuses, elves and drow enhancments are largely a joke, especially when I meet plenty of human wizards who keep up fine with the elf ones.

Karavek
02-22-2008, 01:40 PM
Hey ofocurse Im a fan of elven heroes in novels and a few of my characters as well as my Rp style reflect waht is considered elven behavior by the majority of elf fans.

Now you telling me you dwarf lovers dont idolize Gimli, Bruenor, and ofcourse most famous of all Dwarves Dorf son of Derf son of Darf son of Duff son of a nice dark ale a wench and an unknown battle rager;) actually taht last one was my own favorite dwarf in Pnp and the only one I ever played and enjoyed enough to keep going wiht for a whole campaghn career.

Aesop
02-22-2008, 01:47 PM
Dwarves got the lions share as far as enhancements go. Especially in the Warrior/Divine line of things

Weapon Enhancements that affect a single type of damage (slashing) but a wider range (Ranged, Two Handed, Two Weapon, Weapon and Shield styles) than any other group in an Attack and a Damage line.

Tactics bonuses that affects all tactical lines thus working better than the fighter lines.

SP bonus when using Divine Caster Class

HP bonus that is as good as a Barbarians

couple that with the 3-4 points of Con that a dwarf can have over even a human counterpart and you have serious HP inflation

Shield Enhancement line to increase the DR from blocking ... which only dwarves can get making them take less damage

Dwarven Armor Mastery which mimics a Fighters (though I think 1 less) but stacks with a fighters

yeah Dwarves really were someones "Happy Time"

Then again I've been saying that since this enhancement system went live... Dwarven Enhancements are overpowered relative to the rest of the races... and in some cases relative to the classes

Aesop

geezee
02-22-2008, 04:09 PM
For some reason, the OP left out the single most overpowered enhancement in the game: Dwarven toughness. I'm still trying to figure out how it makes any sense giving dwarves another 50 hp besides all their other imbalanced advantages.

So I rolled a dwarf, figuring they will never fix it...

Yaga_Nub
02-22-2008, 04:24 PM
For some reason, the OP left out the single most overpowered enhancement in the game: Dwarven toughness. I'm still trying to figure out how it makes any sense giving dwarves another 50 hp besides all their other imbalanced advantages.

So I rolled a dwarf, figuring they will never fix it...

I did as well thinking just the opposite. As soon as I get my dorf to a respectable level, they will nerf dorfs.

Shyver
02-22-2008, 04:42 PM
Also bonuses from dodge, and chattering ring won't stack. They're both DODGE bonuses. You take the +3, and since it's better your +1 goes away.

I scrolled through to page 6 and was surpised someone didn't jump on this. Sorry if it got mentioned after that. But:

DODGE BONUSES DO STACK. Dodge feat + chattering ring + chaosguards = +6 to AC.

As to the argument. Yes, dwarves are strong fighters. But the bottom line is if you enjoy your character you enjoy your character.

My main is a 13 Ranger/2 Fighter/1 Wizard two-weapon finese 28 pt. elf and I'd put him head to head against any other warrior IN A QUEST. I don't care what your to hit is, what your AC is, how much you can crit for. If you don't don't play well and smart then it doesn't matter at all. Thats great that dwarves are super strong ON PAPER, but what's on paper a lot of the time doesn't translate into the game.

Play the game to have fun and to be unique, not to be just another cookie cutter everyone's built equal toon. Turn your toon into a character and enjoy the game. :D

MysticTheurge
02-22-2008, 05:01 PM
DODGE BONUSES DO STACK. Dodge feat + chattering ring + chaosguards = +6 to AC.

For the record, Combat Expertise/Defensive Fighting also gives a Dodge bonus to AC.

Shyver
02-22-2008, 05:24 PM
For the record, Combat Expertise/Defensive Fighting also gives a Dodge bonus to AC.

Yeah I know MT, as does uncanny dodge. But I was just refering to the 3 that were originaly mentioned. :D

Mad_Bombardier
02-22-2008, 05:35 PM
For the record, Combat Expertise/Defensive Fighting also gives a Dodge bonus to AC.Technically, it's reported as a Feat Bonus on your character sheet (same as Dodge feat) in DDO. ;) Dodge items are reported as Dodge Bonus.

Emili
02-23-2008, 12:08 AM
They arn't mroe nimble they are less encumbered by armor. In D&D dwarves never suffer movement penalties from armor. They can tumble in medium and heavy armor which no other race can do. Armor mastery is a measure of their abbility to wear and adjust thier armor without interrearing with their movements. Except when wearing heavy armor it is actualy kind of hard for dwarves to take a lot of advantage of armor mastery.

That's not true... in DnD a dwarf movement 20' suffers no movement penalty in medium or heavy armour thus 20'. They exhibit no greater agility in heavy armour then any other race... they move 20' in heavy armour due to thier size and stamina, not because of thier great proficiency with it. The dwarf is actually in lighter armour then a human in heavy armour due to the size coverage - this is the logical reasoning for it in dnd. The race is of equal strength yet smaller.

Dwarves
+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing

Tecchically speaking in DnD an elf or human with the same stats as a dwarf wearing heavy armour would be equal to the to the dwarf in every aspect... AC, movement, skill checks, etc... Armour mastery does not reflect the statement of non-encumberance, because the other races would be equal in terms of movement. Thus it's the fact that dwarves do not get the same size penalty that halflings do. Ie. Human and elf being pushed back to 20' (the dwarves standard) instead of the 30' they normally take.

MysticTheurge
02-23-2008, 02:16 AM
That's not true... in DnD a dwarf movement 20' suffers no movement penalty in medium or heavy armour thus 20'. They exhibit no greater agility in heavy armour then any other race... they move 20' in heavy armour due to thier size and stamina, not because of thier great proficiency with it. The dwarf is actually in lighter armour then a human in heavy armour due to the size coverage - this is the logical reasoning for it in dnd. The race is of equal strength yet smaller.

Regardless of the exact reasons, he's actually right.


Tumble (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)

You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

Since dwarves are the only race (in the core, at least) whose speed is not reduced by medium or heavy armor, then they are the only race who can tumble in medium or heavy armor.

QuantumFX
02-23-2008, 03:54 AM
They arn't mroe nimble they are less encumbered by armor. In D&D dwarves never suffer movement penalties from armor. They can tumble in medium and heavy armor which no other race can do. Armor mastery is a measure of their abbility to wear and adjust thier armor without interrearing with their movements. Except when wearing heavy armor it is actualy kind of hard for dwarves to take a lot of advantage of armor mastery.

A couple things that are being omitted from this conversation

1) There's still no precident for dwarves getting this ability. The closest thing in P&P (Races of Stone) is the dwarf level 8 racial substitution level and the Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization feats. Both the Optimizations are generic feats and are only supposed to only work in HEAVY armor.
You also underestimate the creativity of powergamers. Try a starting 16 DEX and a semi pure dwarf rogue or ranger in a Kundarak Delving Suit.

2) There is a D&D 3.5 precident for elves to get Armor Mastery for Medium and Heavy armors. Champion of Corellon (Races of the Wild Pg. 113) I'm certain some wannabe rules lawyer will point out that Corellon is not an Eberron diety. I'll counter that with the fact that WotC has stated multiple times that they encourage WotC PrC's being adapted to Eberron.
The PrC gives up to a +3 added to the Max Dex bonus of armor and you can avoid movement penalties in medium and heavy armor. (This is training, not a supernatural ability)

Both the Dwarf and Elf abilites do have one problem in the description. Does it apply to all armors that fall under the heavy/medium armor prof. or is it related to the physical weight class of the armor? (In other words does it stack with mithril in P&P?)

The biggest mistake Turbine made with the dwarf enhancement chain was the fact that they didn't tie it to fighter levels like they should have.

Cyan_Kendragon
02-23-2008, 04:27 AM
This i agree with 100% if min/max is all you care about then well go play wow or some other crud like that. DnD has never been about min/max its about learning to use what ya got and adjust hence the group play.

see, this is where I point out the epic levels of fail in this statement.

try getting parties as a 6rog/3wiz/2fgtr.
this build is perfectly viable as a reasonably good utility rogue, as i can personally attest so far (i goofed up in the order of taking the levels..i started this build late beta/early launch and took a break.a long break). however, because of this build (which rarely misses... +19 to hit unbuffed moving or standing still with bows) i find it very difficult to get parties because i'm not an uber-melee rogue, an uber trapmonkey, or an uber ... anything really, except that i rarely miss.

to counter the obscenely short range of SA right now (practically have to be in the tanks shorts to land a sneak attack) i have a bag full of bows of all the elemental types of damage, an anarchic bow, an axiomatic bow, a transmuting bow, and a wounding bow (the +'s on the bows generally don't matter, as the +3 sturdy arrows from house D are better than any other easily accessible arrow, and cheaper than trying to find my bow selection in +3 or better). works pretty well, and the ability to buff myself with expeditious retreat + blur and the like is handy as hell.

guess what? no one wants a non-trap monkey rogue. especially a rogue build like mine because it's a little... odd. sad thing is in PnP this build is not only amazingly handy to have in a party, it's very well set up for one of my personal favorite prestige classes, arcane trickster.

long and short, DDO is already working it's way to WoW. good luck getting a random pickup party with anything but either an acknowleged crossclass build, or a pureclass these days.

Emili
02-23-2008, 07:37 AM
Regardless of the exact reasons, he's actually right.



Since dwarves are the only race (in the core, at least) whose speed is not reduced by medium or heavy armor, then they are the only race who can tumble in medium or heavy armor.


And the ac bonus to dodge actually applies in an defensive stance...

Special
If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.

sigtrent
02-23-2008, 01:11 PM
guess what? no one wants a non-trap monkey rogue. especially a rogue build like mine because it's a little... odd. sad thing is in PnP this build is not only amazingly handy to have in a party, it's very well set up for one of my personal favorite prestige classes, arcane trickster.

long and short, DDO is already working it's way to WoW. good luck getting a random pickup party with anything but either an acknowleged crossclass build, or a pureclass these days.

That isn't the game, its the players of the game (which in my experience are generaly the source of many game problems). My character list is nothing but multi class characters and I get groups without every having an issue. Now if I sat around on LFG I might not get much play because people don't nessisarily know what my characters do, but thats always a poor way to get groups anyhow. Its much more effective to troll the LFM list or make your own LFM and grab the wallflowers in the LFG yourself. They don't often say no base don the leaders class breakdown.

Honestly your character probably isn't as good a build as many others but that doesn't make him useless. The problem is that people don't know what you do so its hard for them to single you out for a task that needs doing.

sigtrent
02-23-2008, 01:22 PM
And the ac bonus to dodge actually applies in an defensive stance...


I think you have wandered into some other argument on this...

My point was that dwarves are better able to do agile type things in heavy armor as evidenced by the fact, that in PnP D&D they can tumble in heavy armor. Not the worlds most amazing argument but you make due with what you have and it is a rather unique ability. It had nothing to due withthe benefits of heavy armor. I'm pretty sure the tumble AC bonus for fighting defensively applies to characters whether they can actualy tumble or not, so long as they have the ranks they can get those bonuses. In DDO you have to actualy be tumbling to get AC bonuses and it has nothing to do with fighting defensively. Very different systems.

In PnP the main use for tumbling in combat is to avoid attacks of opportunity while moving and to pass through enemy squares unhindered. In DDO of course anyone can tumble in heavy armor if they spend the skill points.

It really is just personal opinion as to whether armor mastery makes any sense for dwarves. Seems reasonable and consistant to me. It also seems a bit too good compared to the other races enhancements from a balance standpoint.

Jarlaxel
02-24-2008, 03:12 PM
Heres my proposal to balance the armor mastery of the races via enhancements. Give dwarves armor mastery ONLY for heavy armor. (Since dwarves are more adept at wearing heavy armors) Give elves/drow armor mastery for ONLY light armor, since elves are more nimble and are the true crafters of elven chainmail (mithral) so they should be more adept at wearing light armor. Give medium armor mastery ONLY to humans. Humans arent as strong as dwarves and arent as nimble as an elf. They should be most profecient in medium armors. (Also this would bring back the usage for medium armor). Increase Size bonus for halflings via enhancements, and warforged get armor mastery enhancements based on their armor plating. This solution would not nerf the dwarf but bring the other races on par with the dwarf. Comments?

Emili
02-24-2008, 03:36 PM
Heres my proposal to balance the armor mastery of the races via enhancements. Give dwarves armor mastery ONLY for heavy armor. (Since dwarves are more adept at wearing heavy armors) Give elves/drow armor mastery for ONLY light armor, since elves are more nimble and are the true crafters of elven chainmail (mithral) so they should be more adept at wearing light armor. Give medium armor mastery ONLY to humans. Humans arent as strong as dwarves and arent as nimble as an elf. They should be most profecient in medium armors. (Also this would bring back the usage for medium armor). Increase Size bonus for halflings via enhancements, and warforged get armor mastery enhancements based on their armor plating. This solution would not nerf the dwarf but bring the other races on par with the dwarf. Comments?


That actually looks more like DnD in PnP... what I mean is it is more commonplace in PnP to see the characters dressed more like that.

MysticTheurge
02-24-2008, 04:34 PM
Increase Size bonus for halflings via enhancements

I believe I once suggested Halfling Improved Smallness I-IV.

Invalid_86
02-24-2008, 09:47 PM
Since dwarves are the only race (in the core, at least) whose speed is not reduced by medium or heavy armor, then they are the only race who can tumble in medium or heavy armor.

It's that low center of gravity.....!

Elaril
05-24-2008, 05:55 PM
Sorry about the thread necro, but a reasonable solution to the op's issue, at least in my eyes, recently struck me. Why not add a four tier elven racial enhancement line for the dodge feat with each tier adding an additional +1 to ac provided the character is wearing medium or lighter armor? This would compensate for the inherent nimbleness of elven characters and, at the same time, not nerf Dwarves.

GeneralDiomedes
05-24-2008, 06:03 PM
Exactly. Some of the enhancements are far too broad.

Dwarf Armor Mastery should apply to Heavy (and possibly medium) armor only.

Elves should get a light (and possibly medium) armor mastery (since they get a twilight enhancement).

Axe enhancements should NOT apply to throwing axes.

Critical Rage should NOT apply to every weapon (piercing and crossbows come to mind).

Aaden
05-24-2008, 06:23 PM
First dwarven armor matery-- dwarves are not as slowed by heavy armor as other races, therefore they are more dextrous in heavy armor in PnP. Thats because in PnP Dwarven Base Speed is 20 feet per round vs the elven 30. Dwarves in heavy armor arent slowed from 30 to 20, but move at the same speed as an elf in heavy who is.


They also lack ranged options. They get a bonus to throwing axes, but they are generally weaker than a bow or crossbow. I'm not so sure about that, as bows/crossbows dont get strength bonuses to damage where as thrown weapons do. We're talking abotu fighters, not rangers, btw, so i dont consier Bow Strength to be a factor as both elves and dwarves could get that if they were going that route.

bobbryan2
05-24-2008, 06:25 PM
I actually think elves make pretty potent melees for some builds.

While it's obvious that dwarves have a 'lot' of perks for melee classes... there are some neat things that elves have working for them as well. Displacement as a racial feat is a big one.

QuantumFX
05-25-2008, 03:15 AM
Sorry about the thread necro, but a reasonable solution to the op's issue, at least in my eyes, recently struck me. Why not add a four tier elven racial enhancement line for the dodge feat with each tier adding an additional +1 to ac provided the character is wearing medium or lighter armor? This would compensate for the inherent nimbleness of elven characters and, at the same time, not nerf Dwarves.

The joke would then be complete... In P&P Dwarven AC bonuses usually come as dodge bonuses and P&P elves have access to better armor mastery.

It would still be better to make armor optimization a feat and make it a prereq for armor optimization enhancements. A PrE to emulate the Champion of Corellion could be given to elf fighters or paladins to compensate.

petegunn
05-25-2008, 04:51 AM
Do as i do just play the game to have fun , on another note how boring would ddo be if everything was balanced to be the same .
This snake skin jackets a symbol of my individuality ! and I'd like to keep it on thank you very much .

Elfboy
05-25-2008, 05:04 AM
and a question.........

Now, I understand That parts of this game can be frustrating. However, when the goals are only expressed in terms of superlatives,
(I.E. max AC, to-hit numbers, saving throw numbers) I believe We begin to lose sight of the enjoyment that DDO can provide.
I personally have never sought out "the perfect build" for any of my characters, and while some will denounce this on principle, I
believe that the inherant "flaws" of my characters make them unique. To me, building an "uber" character following someone else's template would, quite frankly, be boring because there's no mystery about the way to play such a character. The time it takes me to find out what works and what doesn't work while I level a toon, to Me, is a large part of the enjoyment I get out of DDO. The fact that none of My toons are what some would call "uber", combined with the fact that I can "keep up" with just about anybody in any quest, gives Me much enjoyment.

I guess the point of this is:

If You enjoy playing Your Elf (or insert race/ class here), Why does it matter what the other races/ classes get?
You obviously put alot of thought and work into this post, but in my opinion, every race/ class has its strengths and weaknesses.....
Can't we all just get along?Well said, and I concur. But I see where the OP's coming from. It isn't fair!

Leyoni
05-25-2008, 05:19 AM
Dwarves and elves are different from one another. Their focus is different and their methods are different. If you go all the way back to old school D&D and the origins of dwarves and elves in AD&D you know that they are conceived as much different races.

DDO captures this. Dwarves excel in some specific areas and they do appear to be among the most logical choices for DPS melee builds. Elves, including drow, are among the more logical choices for finesse builds and ranged builds. Also note that use of rapiers is an elvish ability that goes across all classes. The same is not true for dwarven axes.

Armor mastery reflects the dwarf's familiarity with using heavy armor. Going back to the origins of the two races in D&D/AD&D you will note that elves have always been more lightly armored -- relying on insane dexterity (the reason they make better finesse and ranged builds) instead. From a racial POV it makes sense.

I run both races in DDO because they each have their advantages. I know some players that only run WF or human or elf or dwarf. That is their right. But to want them all to be the same is counterintuitive. It adds significantly to the flavor of the game to have different abilities and to have different races excelling in different areas.

Ishturi
05-26-2008, 10:08 PM
since elves are supposed to be more finesse based... they should get the tactic boost.

Dwarves just swing their axes. They don't take the time to worry about tripping the opponent or such. They just charge in swinging.

Elves, on the other hand, try to outwit their opponents and gain the advantage that way.

So I say you move the tactic boost from dwarves to elves.

Chaoswf
05-26-2008, 11:04 PM
So, I'm making this post because I've found a rather frustrating inconsistency in the power of dwarf fighters, versus fighters of other races, mostly elves. In my opinion, elves should be equals at least to dwarves in martial skills by the setting of Eberron, however the sets of abilities do not accurately represent this. Dwarf Enhancements are (for the most part) Just plain better than their elven equivalents. Don't believe me, or don't feel I'm fairly accounting for all factors? Take a look:

Firstly, Dwarven Axe Damage and Dwarven Axe Attack are grossly overpowered enhancements. Where an elf gets bonus attack and damage to a longsword and rapier, a dwarf gets battleaxe, throwing axe, greataxe, handaxe and DWARVEN AXE. Both enhancements are 2 points at first rank and 4 at second rank. How are they the same number of points when a dwarf gets almost three times the weapons where the damage is applicable, especially when one such weapon does a d10 of damage, meaning even if it were that ONE weapon, which they gain as a free proficiency, it should still be a more expensive enhancement as d10+2 is better than d8+2 without a shadow of a doubt.

Secondly, Dwarven Armored Mastery. Why does it even exist? Dwarves aren't meant to be as agile a race as elves, why are they more adept at moving in armor? It should for NO reason stack with Fighter Armor Mastery and I have been told that it does. This means that no matter what, a race of slower moving, broader creatures will always be harder to hit in melee. And it means that more characters will have an absurdly high AC. +5 Mithril for an elf only works up to a 22 Dexterity, why should it work up to a 26 for a Dwarf? If it has to be in the game, it should cost DOUBLE the points it does now because it stacks with the pre-existing enhancement Fighter's Armor Mastery. Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural) That's not that absurd by it's self, but when you take the +5 Mithril Tower Shield out of the picture, and adjust to keep the highest AC possible, Dwarves will have a 51 AC as well, but since an elf has to use a tower shield to attain that, the dwarf will have 2 better to-hit. Why should it be more rewarding for a dwarf to be dexterous than an elf?

Next, Dwarven Spell Defense. The most comparable elven enhancement is Elven Enchantment Resistance. This doesn't take the lengthy explaination of the other enhancements. +1 to all saves versus spells is better than +1 to all saves versus enchantment spells. Why do they cost the same number of action points?

And lastly, Dwarven Tactics. Another enhancement that stacks with the fighter ability that does the same. This means all Dwarf DC's will be up to 3 higher than their elf counter-parts. Three enhancements wrapped into one should not cost 2 points per rank. It's three enhancements and should cost three, if it should even be included at all.

Fighters have several roles in a party, and to summarize the effects of the enhancements I've given, I'll give reasons for the clear dwarven superiority in each.

DPS:
When dual-weilding weapons Dwarves have better to-hits and to-damage rolls than elves, as their Axe Attack and Axe Damage can potentially work for both main-hand and off-hand attacks (Without incurring a penalty). Weapon Focus: Slashing applies to both axes, as does Improved Critical and Weapon Specialization. For elves to reach a similiar bonus, they'll have to pull a named rapier out of a VERY difficult quest, and they'll have to give up four die-sides of damage (d6 on rapier, versus d10 on dwarven axe) unless the plan on spending double the feats on both Slashing and Piercing weapon specialization, focus and critical, even still they'll be shorted two die-faces of damage (D8 on a longsword versus D10 on a dwarven axe).

Two-handed fighters cannot even be compared, a dwarf with the same set of feats will gain +2 higher damage and to-hit while using a greataxe, and will be compensated for the lack of shield better by a higher armor class.

Shield-using fighters will obviously be stunted, as the dwarven one-hander will be using a weapon that's simply better. D8+2 versus D10+2 doesn't take much more explaination than that. Furthermore, as was stated earlier, a dwarf using a setup with a 51 AC will not need a Tower shield to attain it, so they will have either a +2 better to-hit than the elf, or +1 better AC than the elf, depending on the setup that the dwarf chooses.

Technical:
Dwarf fighters hands down have better trip, stun and sunder DC's with their enhancements. In addition, the best vertigo item in the game, Serrulae, is an axe, meaning that dwarves will gain an additional +2 to-hit and +2 to-damage over elves using a manuver heavy build as well.

Tanking:
Dwarves have better saving throws, better damage per second, more HP and a higher potential AC, making them clearly superior tanks. In addition they can gain shield mastery, granting them additional damage reduction over an elf, and making them once again superior tanks.

Further than that, I'd like to avoid comparing enhancements, as the rest that the races get are on-par. Elves make better Wizards, whereas Dwarves make better clerics. This is fine, even if a bit frustrating since my first toon is an elf cleric. However, elven search and the like make poor substitutes for the dwarf combat enhancements, which make a more effective character rather than just allowing a rogue to place more skill points into haggle, jump, or some other realatively useless skill.

I'd really like to be able to not feel like I wasted my time getting an elf fighter up to 14th level, but I'm starting to feel as though I did, and I've begun to wonder why anyone bothers making any fighter that ISN'T a dwarf.

ummm is it just me or does no dwarf waste APs on axe enhancements and elves have been weaker melee cause of their con hit but i play as wf mainly and dont get me wrong elves can kick arse if they try

captain1z
05-26-2008, 11:33 PM
since elves are supposed to be more finesse based... they should get the tactic boost.

Dwarves just swing their axes. They don't take the time to worry about tripping the opponent or such. They just charge in swinging.

Elves, on the other hand, try to outwit their opponents and gain the advantage that way.

So I say you move the tactic boost from dwarves to elves.



That would be like saying George Foreman (a dwarf for this example) does not use tactics and strategy like Oscar De La Hoya (an elf for this example)

The statement is just not true. Dwarves rely heavily on superior combat tactics. The use of pits and dead falls, narrow tunnels, shield walls as well as hamstringing and piking are all tried and true dwarven comat strategies.

Elves have always leaned heavily upon magic, use of range and camaflouge to win battles. Elves are rarely front line fighters and while individually capable of executing combat tactics through dextrous efforts, they would utterly fail in an effort to repel a dwarven army if forced to do so using only front line melee strategies.

An Elfs strength comes from his ability to out manuever his opponent and through use of magic, trickery and weapon skill defeat him.

A dwarves strength is in his ability to use greater combat strategy to defeat his opponents even when out numbered by 10 to 1. On a field of his choosing a dwarf is king.

The basics of what your saying is is somewhat true ............. at any rate its hard to argue "fantasy"


As a side note George Foreman fights the way he manages his money. He evaluates what he and his opponent has........ hopes that his adversary spends his now and Foreman will usually make an investment in the future.

Cyr
05-26-2008, 11:54 PM
Shrug, I play dwarven melee they do not have the axe enhancements...in fact am not impressed by them at all unless you are using a barbarian.

Elves are not bad, they get less hp but are superior finesse fighters. I see some love coming for monk splash builds in their future. Rapiers are the superior finesse weapon after all.

Not every race should be the best for a specific type of character...a high hp tank think dwarf/warforged. A finesse rogue/fighter/ranger think elves or halflings. Elves could use a little love, but not too much to balance the equation...real issue is that dwarven builds are superior atm due to content not due to power levels since dps trumps AC in the current equation, but all that changes with monks and mod 7.

Hvymetal
05-27-2008, 04:44 AM
Shrug, I play dwarven melee they do not have the axe enhancements...in fact am not impressed by them at all unless you are using a barbarian.

Elves are not bad, they get less hp but are superior finesse fighters. I see some love coming for monk splash builds in their future. Rapiers are the superior finesse weapon after all.

Not every race should be the best for a specific type of character...a high hp tank think dwarf/warforged. A finesse rogue/fighter/ranger think elves or halflings. Elves could use a little love, but not too much to balance the equation...real issue is that dwarven builds are superior atm due to content not due to power levels since dps trumps AC in the current equation, but all that changes with monks and mod 7.

Except of course the fact that even were DPS not more important than AC Dwarves still win, even on finesse builds.....

Borror0
05-27-2008, 04:52 AM
Sorry about the thread necro, but a reasonable solution to the op's issue, at least in my eyes, recently struck me. Why not add a four tier elven racial enhancement line for the dodge feat with each tier adding an additional +1 to ac provided the character is wearing medium or lighter armor? This would compensate for the inherent nimbleness of elven characters and, at the same time, not nerf Dwarves.

Hell no! There are enough problems into the current enhancement system.

Xaxx
05-27-2008, 05:18 AM
Except of course the fact that even were DPS not more important than AC Dwarves still win, even on finesse builds.....
reeeeaaaaAAAALLLLLYYYYY now???? why isnt every new character a dwarf if they're SOOOOO superior.

You know I've hardly ever seen a dex dwarf in the 2 years of this game, I could probably count them on both hands. Yet you say they wen even on finesse builds....

How about some of you guys find a new crusade... how about... wf casters..... you know the high percentage of newer caster builds who are wf sorc and wiz both, bit higher con means more hp, and the reconstruct spell means massive self healing, that makes wf superior for casters in many peoples opinion yet not all casters are wf, no crusade to get rid of reconstruct??????? Oh right, someone started the bandwaggon so a bunch of you jumped on... good for you

Hvymetal
05-27-2008, 05:30 AM
reeeeaaaaAAAALLLLLYYYYY now???? why isnt every new character a dwarf if they're SOOOOO superior.

You know I've hardly ever seen a dex dwarf in the 2 years of this game, I could probably count them on both hands. Yet you say they wen even on finesse builds....

How about some of you guys find a new crusade... how about... wf casters..... you know the high percentage of newer caster builds who are wf sorc and wiz both, bit higher con means more hp, and the reconstruct spell means massive self healing, that makes wf superior for casters in many peoples opinion yet not all casters are wf, no crusade to get rid of reconstruct??????? Oh right, someone started the bandwaggon so a bunch of you jumped on... good for you
For AC? Yes, a Dwarf is only 2 Dex down from a Elf on a Rogue or a Ranger, more often they are Strength builds to take advantage of the Axe enhancements.

Are you honestly going to try and argue that Dwarves are not superior in almost any melee build to any other race? How bout Melee orientated Clerics? Please take off the rosey colored glasses you are wearing and you will see it is no bandwagon at all....