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Riminy
11-29-2007, 08:11 PM
Level Respecing is as simple as respecing a feat. You made a wrong choice and now you want to "fix" your mistake. However fixing your mistake is going to cost you, a possible material like a Dragonshard for example and a sum of plat. For every level you wish to respec, you will need another possible material and more plat.

In my opinion this is a great idea because since the beginning of the game things in DDO have been changing and things have been changed. For example say that Paladin level you took to use a wand or possibly for an aura bonus or that fighter level you took on your rogue so he/she could wear full plate while still evading those traps. Maybe your pure class but you would like to benefit from another class like 2 ranger for twf.

There is never a set plan of information to level 20 so you can never know what is going to happen. Who knows exactly what is coming in the future? Not everything can be implemented and maybe that fighter level you took on your character may be the worst mistake you've made and now you cant get that uber feat or enhancement later on.

You might say, ok well just reroll your toon and get on with the game. But my argument is that myself and some friends have been playing since the start. The characters have tomes and raid loots all put into them. Why should i have to give that up just because the game decides to change its mind halfway through and leave us out in the cold? You might say but its only 1 level or even 2. Sure but i play the game for fun and to enjoy myself after a long day. I wouldnt be enjoying myself as much if i always felt a little gimped because of the choice i made which turbine decided to change 1 year later.

It even benefits those newcomers to DDO. When i first started i had half as much idea then as i do now. On my very first character i screwed many things up like his feats and his leveling and yes i did reroll only because he was level 8 and at the time level 10 being the cap. He had no raid loot and was in my opinion, a terrible toon. If i had the chance to change his feats and levels perhaps that character would still be around.

My point is that with all the changes that occur in DDO i believe its reasonable that we should be allowed to re-adjust our characters so they we can make our characters exactly how we would like them.

Just my 2 cents,
Riminy

Impaqt
11-29-2007, 08:20 PM
How do you address SKill Points?

If you create build that take advantage of flaws, then you should expect to reroll when they are changed.

Riminy
11-29-2007, 08:28 PM
That is not exactly our fault. These changes should of been like how they are from the beginning. Not 1 year later..

And yes i was thinking that a similar kind of thing should be implemented for skill points. For those changes also to skills like balance. Itd be nice to have one for this but i was sticking with one idea at a time. I would love to have umd on my ranger.

DasLurch
11-29-2007, 08:31 PM
I'd like to see some form of a total resec, but I just don't see it at any point in the near future. There's lots of reasons for this, and here's a few I can imagine...

1) There will probably be issues with any tomes used when it comes to stat points involving a respec.

2) The game isn't "finished" growwing yet. We're not even to level 16. at this rate 20 is a year + out still. IF and that's a big IF the Dev's ever decide to come up with a respec feature, it will be once we hit level 20 in my guesstamation.

3) People use Int tomes, and this can effect the skill points given out in a repec.

4) Who's to say that the level of ____ that you took for something back at lev 5 won't be beneficial at level 16 or 17? If they give in now, they'll be giving in each time we have a new update. While this wouldn't be a bad thing for us (players), I'd be willing to bet there are members of the dev staff already getting the shakes over that thought.

That's just a few of the hurdles I'd imagine that wouldhave to be dealt with before a respec can be implemented. Here's hoping that we get some news on a plan for it in the future, but I am afraid it's still a long way off.

Dexxaan
11-29-2007, 08:35 PM
I'd much rather see Turbine put efforts towards new and better content / features, than try to help those players who refuse to reroll their mistakes...or such..

I don't pay my monthly dues to cover other peoples screw ups is my opinion.

So please disregard this thread Turbine and get back to work on level Cap increase, new feats and cool Enhancements.

Serpent
11-29-2007, 08:45 PM
3) People use Int tomes, and this can effect the skill points given out in a repec.


Int tomes are supposed to scale adn offer more skill points when used. They are retroactive.

Riminy
11-29-2007, 08:48 PM
I'd much rather see Turbine put efforts towards new and better content / features, than try to help those players who refuse to reroll their mistakes...or such..

I don't pay my monthly dues to cover other peoples screw ups is my opinion.

So please disregard this thread Turbine and get back to work on level Cap increase, new feats and cool Enhancements.

I dont see anyone complaining about the Feat respec... Im not saying turbine.. dedicate all your time to my idea. Your not the only one who wants more content.

Kerr
11-29-2007, 08:57 PM
Int tomes are supposed to scale adn offer more skill points when used. They are retroactive.

Actually, no they don't. If you use a Tome in PnP, you don't get the additional skill points you would have had gained if you had used it earlier.

Serpent
11-29-2007, 09:31 PM
Actually, no they don't. If you use a Tome in PnP, you don't get the additional skill points you would have had gained if you had used it earlier.

yes that is true it has changed so many times i have forgotten, the simple fact is they know at what level your character has taken a tome or at what level you applied a ability point. If they don't, the minor amount of skill points they will have does not really make a difference. There have been enough changes to skills to warrant a re spec either now or soon enough.

I don't think anyone would want a re spec over new content. But if we think back to mod 2 they managed to implement both and they did the same in mod 3. the fact is we need some option whether it be a one time thing or a concept that involves using a dragonshard. If we want to make the pnp argument which is getting really old, most DMs would be willing to make a compromise with there PCs, especially if the game is radically different then it was at start.

And the idea that they screwed up, hahaha.... man are you a little full of yourself. this is a game its about having fun. Sometimes we make mistakes and yes I think we should pay for them. but not with a complete re roll, especially since some characters have been around since the beginning. Mine started at launch and I would never re roll him except for one time but I digress. Everything I have done with him and all teh gear and favor he has created is important to me from game perspective. Would I pay in some form to re spec, yes. But to re roll sorry mate I'll stick to him and grumble some.

also to say a build takes advantage of flaws. evasion in heavy armor comes to mind. Well i know of no one who would re roll they just put on a skirt and deal, sure they don't look as beefy as they did but they are still just as good. There seems to be this idea of well i don't like your idea so i wish to punish you. I may be wrong but that is how i see it, if you really think that each character is no better then another why are you so threatened cause it sounds like you feel threatened by the idea of someone re spec'ing, are they going to be better then you after. Other then that fear its a non issue for those who don't want a re spec.

Re spec'ing helps many and hurt no one and if it does hurt you then I suggest closing the window going outside and seeing the rest of the world cause it has been a long time since you went there.

Finally and I am not the only one who thinks this but people please give up the pnp comparisons. PnP is a great place to start but it is not a mmo and there fore this game will differ. If we went to pnp then we would be turn based, stats would be lower, inflata hps would not exist and we would be so behind in magic weapons it would not be funny. We all need to just let it go.

gpk
11-29-2007, 10:32 PM
I'd much rather see Turbine put efforts towards new and better content / features, than try to help those players who refuse to reroll their mistakes...or such..

I don't pay my monthly dues to cover other peoples screw ups is my opinion.

So please disregard this thread Turbine and get back to work on level Cap increase, new feats and cool Enhancements.

What a ridiculous statement; if they thought like that there wouldn't be a feat or enhancement respec either, so much for those "cool new feats and enhancements". You do indeed pay monthly fees for stuff liek that, remember the "academy training" update? An update just for new enhancements and re-training.
And what happens when those cool new enhancements and cool new feats are changed? Did you still "screw up" ? In that non-respec world and by your non-logic it would be "Oh well you are SOL".

If you change the way something works in a game you MUST allow players a chance to change with it. That's the whole point of a respec. You change feats? Allow feats to respeced. You change skills? Allow skill respecs.

The terrible tragedy over the whole evasion in heavy armor thingy is that sure the pnp nerds knew about it, the average player did not. A dev was even reported as saying at one of those game conventions that that wasn't likely to change. Other than that I don't recall any dev posts saying evasion would ever be "fixed" back then.
"Suddenly", well a year + later there's a new lead designer (what's DDO on it's 3rd or 4th?) and evasion gets fixed, players got 1 month notice. At the very least players should have been allowed to "trade in" their +5 mithral full plate for a +5 mithral breastplate or chain shirt.
I knew about evasion being limited to light armor and had a suspicion it might be changed, but that's me. The blame lies not with the player base; the devs had ample time to nip it in the bud and they chose not to. If they thought a changce was coming they coulda warned players.

A more preferable solution would be to have a de-leveler or a one time transfer/character of bound items perhaps.

Honestly is that +1 skill point/level really that big a deal? Look how long we're stuck at a given level cap. Those who argue "pnp this pnp that" could also argue that since you're not stuck at a given level in pnp, you KNOW that those skills will eventually come into play. In DDO it could be many many months.

Pellegro
11-29-2007, 10:36 PM
I'd love a respec. Always have been pro-respec.

But I wouldn't want Mod 6, for example, to be "Introducing, RESPEC" with no, or even less, content.

Given that the development at this time seems to have been pretty scaled back (as evidenced by fewer, and smaller, mods), I'm willing to foresake it.

But I would still love one.

MysticTheurge
11-29-2007, 10:38 PM
Int tomes are supposed to scale adn offer more skill points when used.

Yes.


They are retroactive.

No.

Serpent
11-29-2007, 11:19 PM
Yes.



No.

already addressed this but thanks

Riminy
11-30-2007, 01:00 AM
I'd love a respec. Always have been pro-respec.

But I wouldn't want Mod 6, for example, to be "Introducing, RESPEC" with no, or even less, content.

Given that the development at this time seems to have been pretty scaled back (as evidenced by fewer, and smaller, mods), I'm willing to foresake it.

But I would still love one.
I'm not asking for them to base a whole mod on it. I dont expect them (if implemented) to put it in by mod6. However mod 7 would be nice.. or even somewhere inbetween :) Also, I doubt they would dedicate a whole mod towards a respec. As serpent said,


I don't think anyone would want a re spec over new content. But if we think back to mod 2 they managed to implement both and they did the same in mod 3.

Thanks for the reply

gpk
11-30-2007, 05:53 AM
Skill/class respecing an important part of a game that's sorely lacking in DDO.
Yes ppl seem to be so concerned over "I don't want this taking away time form this or that" but as others have said it has been done in the past, are there less developers working on DDO now vs before? Heck the new enhancement system was it's own update and took the place of new "content".
It's also very very unlikely that the quest design team would work on something like a class/skill respec system, you're not keeping them from that, the real issue seems to be QA, and those 2 little letters seem to be coming up a LOT lately, and often not in a good way.

I'm sure at the very least, a quick and easy skill respec system can be slapped together that won't require a lot of QA time, int tomes be damned.

LOL speakinf of development time, in hindsight, would anyone have missed LOTD 1 &2 if it were droped in favor of a more complete respec system?

MysticTheurge
11-30-2007, 07:03 AM
Skill/class respecing an important part of a game that's sorely lacking in DDO.

I kind of like the idea of skill respec. I think it has a lot of advantages for the game overall, including the ability to continue to work on implementing new skills and adding additional ways for existing skills to make a difference.

Class respec is a bit trickier though. There's something that seems wrong about someone being a paladin through about 7th or 8th and then switching over to a sorcerer to do 9th through 14th. Or being something all the way up to 14th and then deciding they're bored and switching to a wholly different class.

That said, I do think it ought to balanced against those situations where someone was a total newb and though a level of cleric would really make them a better ranger, or you weren't paying attention and accidentally gave your fighter a paladin level, or whatever. I think, perhaps, a system that let you change one level, either your most recent level taken to anything else or a single level in your lowest class to your highest class wouldn't be a terrible idea.

GrayOldDruid
11-30-2007, 07:39 AM
Maybe respec One level. Or a pay-to-rebuild premium service like what has been mentioned in other posts.

I would love to be able to fix a mistake I made at 1:00 AM after playing all night just to hit this level and taking 1 level in Bard and pouring all skill points into UMD for that awesome ability to use Heal Wands without trouble (and be proficient in light armor, a self-buffing spell, etc).

See the mistake? I didn't put at least 3 skill points into Perform!! Can't use my songs!! When did I notice? As soon as I hit the "Accept" button and it was all said and done. Where can I get an "UNDO" button??

Am I going to re-roll Batsran for that? No. Too much invested in him. Plus, 3 skill points at next level going into perform isn't such a bad thing... even if it will be cross class.... hard, yes. Would I like to reallocate those point to something that makes more sense? HECK YES.

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-30-2007, 09:39 AM
Why a single-Level Class Respec won't work:

Roll up a Human Rogue, Level 1. Get LOTS AND LOTS of Skill Points... drop 4 points into a dozen skills.
Take Level 2, go Fighter, then go respec Level 1 back into Fighter. Can you un-do all the skill points? What about the Bonus feat you didn't get?

Option #2: Roll a Fighter with CE, run up to Level 10 or so, then splash 1 Level of Rogue, and drop all 10 skill points into UMD... you now havea maxxed out UMD... then @ 14, I want to spec out the Rogue Level, and take Fighter... how to handle that?

Option #3: Take Ranger 2, thne go Fighter all the way to 14, taking ITWF & GTWF... then I spec out Ranger 2 for Fighter 13... I just lost the pre-requisite for ITWF & GTWF? It also changed when I should have received all my bonus feats, making respeccing a mess... and, what happens when I spec out the final Ranger level for a Fighter Level, will the game know to give me a Fighter Bonus Feat?


--------------------------------------


The problem is that a "Class" or "Level" Respec will break WAY too many things in the game.
You would need to implement a "Full-Character-Respec" Option (ie. strip down to Level 1, and re-level up all 14 levels, one at a time) in order to do it at all.

ArkoHighStar
11-30-2007, 10:02 AM
Why a single-Level Class Respec won't work:

Roll up a Human Rogue, Level 1. Get LOTS AND LOTS of Skill Points... drop 4 points into a dozen skills.
Take Level 2, go Fighter, then go respec Level 1 back into Fighter. Can you un-do all the skill points? What about the Bonus feat you didn't get?

Option #2: Roll a Fighter with CE, run up to Level 10 or so, then splash 1 Level of Rogue, and drop all 10 skill points into UMD... you now havea maxxed out UMD... then @ 14, I want to spec out the Rogue Level, and take Fighter... how to handle that?

Option #3: Take Ranger 2, thne go Fighter all the way to 14, taking ITWF & GTWF... then I spec out Ranger 2 for Fighter 13... I just lost the pre-requisite for ITWF & GTWF? It also changed when I should have received all my bonus feats, making respeccing a mess... and, what happens when I spec out the final Ranger level for a Fighter Level, will the game know to give me a Fighter Bonus Feat?


--------------------------------------


The problem is that a "Class" or "Level" Respec will break WAY too many things in the game.
You would need to implement a "Full-Character-Respec" Option (ie. strip down to Level 1, and re-level up all 14 levels, one at a time) in order to do it at all.

Agreed the only way to do it is a full respec. Maybe handling int tomes by creating a bound min level tome that can only be used after you train up to the level you got it before might work, all other tomes can just be left on the stat at level one as they do not affect skills like int tomes do.

I would pay for the follwing as a premium service

all that stays is race, if it was a 28 point build and you now have 32 point builds you get 32 points for respec, all gear and tomes stay on character. Then go from trainer to trainer to rebuild your character

MysticTheurge
11-30-2007, 10:05 AM
Agreed the only way to do it is a full respec.

Well, yes and no.

It'd be relatively easy to do a "Last Level Only" type class respec.

But I guess you're right, that doing anything else would require a more full rebuild.

ArkoHighStar
11-30-2007, 10:13 AM
Well, yes and no.

It'd be relatively easy to do a "Last Level Only" type class respec.

But I guess you're right, that doing anything else would require a more full rebuild.


I guess the question you need to ask is whether you want to make it easy or hard to do for players. If you want it to be something players will do all the time then make it cost in game plat. If you want players to really think about whether they want to do it then make it a premium thing.

Gornin
11-30-2007, 11:13 AM
I guess the question you need to ask is whether you want to make it easy or hard to do for players. If you want it to be something players will do all the time then make it cost in game plat. If you want players to really think about whether they want to do it then make it a premium thing.

It should not cost the players a thing. I did not know they were going to allow 32 point characters, along with many other changes and rewards that changed game play. I should not have to pay extra to gain access to things I already earned, or to allow my 28 point character to be respecced to a 32 point character, especially since that is the one I earned the 32 point favor with. It is already too costly to respec feats and enhancements, imo.

A total reroll is needed in this game, as per the thread Kargon started. I just want to to be able to reward my initial characters by allowing them to benefit from the rewards they earned. As for int tomes, I don't care if people get some extra skill points, with the inflation in this game it won't hardly matter.


And don't get me started on how much money people have in this game.

DasLurch
11-30-2007, 01:26 PM
It should not cost the players a thing. I did not know they were going to allow 32 point characters, along with many other changes and rewards that changed game play. I should not have to pay extra to gain access to things I already earned, or to allow my 28 point character to be respecced to a 32 point character, especially since that is the one I earned the 32 point favor with. It is already too costly to respec feats and enhancements, imo.

A total reroll is needed in this game, as per the thread Kargon started. I just want to to be able to reward my initial characters by allowing them to benefit from the rewards they earned. As for int tomes, I don't care if people get some extra skill points, with the inflation in this game it won't hardly matter.

I'd love to turn my original Character into a 32 point build. I'd also want the +2 Int tome I took for his favor back BEFORE I did that :) I also agree that this should NOT be an extra fee type premium service. It SHOULD be an incredibly rare and a 1 time type of thing. But the last thing you said I think is the one that some people will have some issues with. You may not care if someone gets some free skill points (I really don't care outside of my own chars), I find it hard to imagine that Turbine would be as carefree as you are about this. There are already enough people that scream unfair about unough things in this game already. Imagine the ruckus they would raise if only certain people, and a small % at that, were to gain something that they did not. I can see the pages of flames already...

Hence
11-30-2007, 01:48 PM
Allow us to start at the character creation screen and start completely over one time. Have it be very costly. Allow used tomes to benefit you from the start. The extra skill points gained are not a major thing.

jjflanigan
11-30-2007, 02:22 PM
I'd like the idea because it would be useful, but I'm against it because it would be abused. At early levels certain classes are easier to level up than others and then things shift. It seems...wrong...to me to allow someone to level up a character as a fighter until melee begins to taper off and the damage from casting begins to gain ground by large margins and then immediately switch.

"Yes, I've been only trained to fight melee for 8 levels, but now that I'd be able to cast wall of fire if I was a sorcerer, I'd like to be one of those instead!"

krud
11-30-2007, 02:44 PM
reroll

Serpent
11-30-2007, 03:14 PM
but I'm against it because it would be abused.

You are right it could be abused. I doubt it will. Digitally our characters are laid out so when we made changes such as tomes those should be known. If they still don't know the only abuse will come in skill points from int tomes and frankly that will not be that much. A few extra skills will not make or break anyone. If we make it a one time full respec or a purchased full respec or have it require 5 dragon shards then it will not be abused near as much as it would have been before, which wasn;t going to be much.

And to those that say reroll. Is it because you already made a mistake and rerolled yourself? So you don't want others to get a benefit from this idea because you went the hard route. trust most people would never reroll, their characters are not gimped to that point. They would like to repec though since elements in game have changed. take for instance STWF if it goes in as made. I know many a str ranger who will want to respec a few points into dex just in case. Did they screw up? No I think not.

krud
11-30-2007, 04:07 PM
And to those that say reroll. Is it because you already made a mistake and rerolled yourself? So you don't want others to get a benefit from this idea because you went the hard route. trust most people would never reroll, their characters are not gimped to that point. They would like to repec though since elements in game have changed. take for instance STWF if it goes in as made. I know many a str ranger who will want to respec a few points into dex just in case. Did they screw up? No I think not.

No, I usually reroll early on. Highest toon i deleted was 8th level, most were 5 or 6.

These are the main reasons i see people clamouring for full respec:

1. "I've reached 1750 on my 28pt build and don't want to reroll him as a 32pt build."
hmm.. he was good enough to grind to 1750, and reach cap, and gather a bunch of raid loot that's worthy of passing down, but now he needs to be rerolled? I don't get it. I still got my original 28pt build going strong. For those who suffer from stat envy, instead of a full respec option, just give any 28pt build who reaches 1750 four extra build points to be spent the same way you do at character creation. Puts them right on par with 32pt build. Problem solved. Much simpler than a full respec.

2. "My toon is less than perfect"
no respec option will ever fully satisfy this group. No reason to waste dev time trying to appease this very small vocal minority (they're never gonna be happy anyway).

3. "I made some mistakes when building my toon"
Why would someone bother accumulating tons of favor, tomes and raid loot on a "mistake" anyway? It doesn't take that long to figure out a mistake. If you did manage to get that far with a "mistake", then it probably isn't much of a mistake to begin with. If it is a matter of mispent skill points, then, as you put it, "A few extra skills will not make or break anyone".

4. "They changed the rules and now my toon is gimp"
This is probably the only valid reason, however, there probably are very few characters that were truly made gimp by some changes.

ahpook
11-30-2007, 04:35 PM
Simplest way would be to allow you to delete a level.

Drop your character back to the XP that is one short of your current level and removes the level, skills and action points that level gave you. You can do this repeatedly and roll back a few levels if you really want to. You will then have to relevel your character. Not a whole lot of room for abuse as far as I see it but it would let you try out a multi class option and change your mind if it doesn't work out or you picked some wrong skills.

The longer it takes you decide it doesn't work, the higher price you pay...

gpk
11-30-2007, 05:49 PM
I dont see why ppl are so concerned about "exploiting" the system, taking out that last level of rogue will NOT let you keep the skill point's you gained, those will be rolled back too. It's easy enough to put safeguards in for little things like that.

Speaking of safeguards, it's prolly pretty easy for the respec system to see that you have a ranger 13/ftr1 and to not allow you to become a sorc14 instead you can put in some safeguards for things like that, like not allowing you to deviate more than 4 levels or a partial class respec that only allows you to respec out in a few other class levels, There are a lot of things that can be done here. If someone want's a full blown respec you can alaways just drop em to level 0 and have them level up again. We're all jsut shooting out idea here, I'm sure if we all sat down and took some time to really think good of somethink we could, and if we can the devs can.

And dear gods, let's stop talking about premium services for stuff that should be integral to MMOs, there's NO way a class/skill respec should ever EVER be a pay service.

Riminy
11-30-2007, 05:52 PM
I think a 1 level respec could be possible just like a feat. You take one level at a time and switch it around for whatever. Although, say you took out a level of fighter at level 12 (basing it on a 14th level toon) you would be able to reselect that level and spend the possible skill points. It would be nice if you could reselect the attributes spent at the certain level like 4,8 and 12. I think that changing all stat points will never happen. Whats the point of leveling say a Rogue but then deciding that youd rather be a Sorcerer. IMO, that would ruin the game.

But say we did have this implemented, for every level you wish to change you would need a dragonshard or the equivalent and some plat. However every time you wish to change a level the sum of plat increases. If the some of plat increases i think it should be at a high rate increase. Eventually resulting to a ridiculous amount. Eg: 1 level is 50k pp 2 levels 115kpp, 3 levels 225kpp and so on.

Making it a premium service would also work. People would be more hesitent to pay real cash then to pay with game currency. However i think with a premium service there are alot of variables. A complete level change? does that include stat points, skills, feats? Real money per 1 level changed? i guess something like $7 US per level. But as gpk said


there's NO way a class/skill respec should ever EVER be a pay service.

MysticTheurge
11-30-2007, 05:56 PM
Speaking of safeguards, it's prolly pretty easy for the respec system to see that you have a ranger 13/ftr1 and to not allow you to become a sorc14 instead you can put in some safeguards for things like that, like not allowing you to deviate more than 4 levels or a partial class respec that only allows you to respec out in a few other class levels, There are a lot of things that can be done here.

I like this idea.

Demitris
11-30-2007, 06:06 PM
sorry to be the barer of bad news, but Turbine has already addressed this suggestion a number of times in the past.

The simple answer is they cannot do a level respec due to not retaining historical records of your character from previous levels, in addition to this they also stated that even if they did retain records a character roll back to this point would also cause the loss of tomes and many other factors. They've said it just can't be done without a major re-vamp of character creation which would tie up resources far beyond its potential usefulness.

In order to hunt down the dev posts you'd have to be talking going back 6 months or more (and to be honest I'm not even sure with all the forum alterations they still have the posts on here. But it has been a topic to come up several times before.

krud
11-30-2007, 06:16 PM
you ever use the character planner, and try change one of the midlevel classes? It usually screws up enhancement choices, feat progressions, etc at the later levels. It wouldn't be all that easy to program, especially when you add in tomes. Is it really worth all that dev effort?

Everyone seems to want one big "easy" button.

Why not go one step further and say when your first toon hits 1750, you can then plan out all following characters in the planner, and *poof* there they are, ready to go at whatever level you choose.

Serpent
11-30-2007, 11:33 PM
sorry to be the barer of bad news, but Turbine has already addressed this suggestion a number of times in the past.

The simple answer is they cannot do a level respec due to not retaining historical records of your character from previous levels, in addition to this they also stated that even if they did retain records a character roll back to this point would also cause the loss of tomes and many other factors. They've said it just can't be done without a major re-vamp of character creation which would tie up resources far beyond its potential usefulness.

In order to hunt down the dev posts you'd have to be talking going back 6 months or more (and to be honest I'm not even sure with all the forum alterations they still have the posts on here. But it has been a topic to come up several times before.

I have never heard this can you link the thread they said this in.

gpk
12-01-2007, 12:07 AM
you ever use the character planner, and try change one of the midlevel classes? It usually screws up enhancement choices, feat progressions, etc at the later levels. It wouldn't be all that easy to program, especially when you add in tomes. Is it really worth all that dev effort?

Everyone seems to want one big "easy" button.



Sorry that doesn't fly, you're comparing a freeware app written from a guy who does it on his spare time to DDO?
Are you a programmer? Have you ever released any freeware apps? I amd and I have. Freeware is written in one's free time when one is in the mood. You can't expect the same level of bug-free-edness from a freeware app, I'm sure the author would rather be playing DDO than fixing some issues, I know my littlr freeware projects have suffered since DDO came out :)
You make it sound like it's a herculean programming task and it's not.
Historical records be damned, you can start keeping once the respec system is in place. Like I said before there is a LOT of room to play with here, and if there is a compromise to be made it can be a good one.

To repeat myself say you're a Rng 13/Ftr 1.
The respec system can take a look at your classes and not allow more than say a 4 (or %) level deviation from your current favored class.
Rng 13 cannot become less than Rng9 but you can swap out the Ftr 1 to become Rng13 or Rang14 etc. Again, these are just quick idea but you get the drift, sit down for more than 5 minutes and I'm sure you can come up with something good and fair while at the same time not allow too many "exploits".

Demitris
12-01-2007, 04:23 AM
I have never heard this can you link the thread they said this in.

clearly you didn't read the whole of what I said.

Serpent
12-01-2007, 05:43 AM
clearly you didn't read the whole of what I said.

No I did I was asking if you had found the thread. I see you did not know if it still existed but i thought you maybe would have looked. I tried but was unable to find it. Maybe you remembered a key word or which Dev said it in order to narrow the search. Simple questions really. Not in any way deserving a snide reply.

redoubt
12-01-2007, 10:08 AM
The respec thing is not really even about "mistakes."

I made a mistake on my ranger/rogue. She has no UMD. I knew what it did, I just did not think it was worth it at the time. That was a mistake. I plan to fix it in future levels. I'm not looking for a respec to fix it.

Say someone builds a 15fighter/5 barb. Right now they are at 9 fighter and 5 barb. Turbine announces that level 17 fighter will have class ability xxx and feat yyy. If you knew that when you built the character you might not have taken 5 levels of barb. You would have taken just 3, so that you get get 17 levels of fighter for those abilities and feats. I think this is more where the respec is being requested.

There have been lots of good idea on how to make it happen. Personnaly I see no problems with making the character re-earn the changed levels. SWG, while a very different system, supported the concept. You could "unlearn" a skill to "make room" for a different one. Then you went out and earned the xp to buy the new skill. (Obviously this would take some tweaking to apply here.)

I don't think its so much about fixing mistakes, but adapting to how the game is changing as we go.

Draiden
12-01-2007, 03:11 PM
The easiest way to do this, and to keep both parties (turbine and players) happy, is to simply create a "reroll"/"enervate"/"gimp" button that takes your toon back to first level (with a "type this characters name in the box below" confirmation, of course). Using this feature will NOT DELETE your toon, losing all inventory and such, but simply reduce the total xp to 0. You get to keep your gear, and Turbine gets more of your time and money as you work on getting a million xp points back. Tomes you get to keep on your stats... consider it a small bonus for being willing to do it all over again.

Cowdenicus
12-01-2007, 03:30 PM
I will always be pro-reroll, because Turbine has not created a comprehensive list of what is in game (like there is in Pen & Paper) and what feats and such will be in game with set in stone pre reqs and such.

In P&P I can know before I start exactly what I will want my characters to do and as such do exactly that. If a new book comes out (that the DM) allows in generally they are good enough to "work" with you on that.

A beautiful example of this is STWF and rangers now. While I have known it was coming for months, and what the pre reqs were for it, the whole community did not.

Just my thoughts.

MysticTheurge
12-01-2007, 06:00 PM
a comprehensive list of ... what feats and such will be in game

You really think D&D has one of these?

I can support a respec'ing kind of system, especially one that forces you to re-acquire XP in order to get back to your original level.

I am, I think, a bit concerned about the suggestion that you keep Tomes. There are already some significant disparities between people's second (or higher) characters and brand new characters. With 32-point/Drow builds vs. 28 point builds and twinked gear, you already feel pretty far behind when you're making a brand new character. I don't know that letting rerolled characters keep +1-3 to various stats is really a good idea in that case.

I guess a system that kept your tomes but didn't actually apply the bonus until a certain level, might work as an alternative.

Gornin
12-01-2007, 06:29 PM
I guess a system that kept your tomes but didn't actually apply the bonus until a certain level, might work as an alternative.

That is similiar to what I was going to suggest. If 14 skill points (maybe 28) are such a big deal to people with the inflation in this game, when you make the reroll, your inherent bonuses to stats are removed and you are given a bound tome with a ML of 10. This is only for INT, since the other bonuses don't affect anything like skill points.

I don't see how a system like this could be abused. It could be coded so that you had to start your first level in your main class. Why would you change all of your character when you collected bound and raid loot as to what benefitted your class the most. I guess you could sell it all and buy new gear, but where are you ahead?

The reason I want to reroll 2 of my characters is because I did not know how high end and inflationary this game was. My first 2 builds were built like I was playing PnP. No min/max, good balanced characters with room to grow in the right places to make them effective at later levels. Then came the enhancement lines. Really made my builds kinda gimped. My wiz and cleric don't have 2/3 the SP of most builds, nor the high DC and other things. Yes I still play them, but rarely, because they are not nearly as effective at endgame, therefore not the best to support the party to accomplish things. All I want to do is correct my mistakes from the beginning, and let them both benefit from the 1750 favor they earned and other things. I don't think that is a bad thing to want to make you starter toons on par with your newer toons.

krud
12-03-2007, 08:50 AM
The reason I want to reroll 2 of my characters is because I did not know how high end and inflationary this game was. My first 2 builds were built like I was playing PnP. No min/max, good balanced characters with room to grow in the right places to make them effective at later levels. Then came the enhancement lines. Really made my builds kinda gimped. My wiz and cleric don't have 2/3 the SP of most builds, nor the high DC and other things. Yes I still play them, but rarely, because they are not nearly as effective at endgame, therefore not the best to support the party to accomplish things. All I want to do is correct my mistakes from the beginning, and let them both benefit from the 1750 favor they earned and other things. I don't think that is a bad thing to want to make you starter toons on par with your newer toons.

None of my original 28 pt toons are min/max, yet they don't have anything like 1/3 less SP than everyone else. A starting stat of 16 in Int, Wis or Cha is not going to give you 1/3 less spell points, nor will it give a huge DC penalty. I don't understand how your toons got so gimp. How did they acquire so much bound raid gear and tomes if they are so gimp and you rarely play them? Even if you started with less than 16 in your main stat wouldn't an extra 4 build pts for any 28ptr who reaches 1750 favor help fix this?

28 vs 32pt argument aside, it seems most people want the respec option because they view their characters as less than perfect. One less feat or the lack of a few skill points here or there will not break a character. People just aren't satisfied with less than the maximum, even though less than maximum is perfectly adequate. Is it worth the dev effort? I vote content.

Ron
12-03-2007, 09:02 AM
Sorry that doesn't fly, you're comparing a freeware app written from a guy who does it on his spare time to DDO?
Are you a programmer? Have you ever released any freeware apps? I amd and I have. Freeware is written in one's free time when one is in the mood. You can't expect the same level of bug-free-edness from a freeware app, I'm sure the author would rather be playing DDO than fixing some issues, I know my littlr freeware projects have suffered since DDO came out :)
You make it sound like it's a herculean programming task and it's not.

You entirely missed the point of his post. He is not saying changing mid-level changes screw up later stuff because the planner is buggy. It is not. It screws up later choices because you now have a lot of game-illegal stuff at those levels (like an enhancement that you no longer have the correct number of class levels for). The Planner will flag such things and red-flash them so you can fix them. In game it's not so easy. It WOULD be a hurculean task to make this work, and work without bugs or the ability to exploit it somehow. If you are a programmer, then you should know that.

gpk
12-03-2007, 09:22 AM
You entirely missed the point of his post. He is not saying changing mid-level changes screw up later stuff because the planner is buggy. It is not. It screws up later choices because you now have a lot of game-illegal stuff at those levels (like an enhancement that you no longer have the correct number of class levels for). The Planner will flag such things and red-flash them so you can fix them. In game it's not so easy. It WOULD be a hurculean task to make this work, and work without bugs or the ability to exploit it somehow. If you are a programmer, then you should know that.

Clearly we differ on how talented we think some programmers are. Ya it's not a Hello World app, but sheesh you're making it sound like it would require them to write a DDO OS (I'm sure Bill G or Steve J would love that). If The Planner can flag things and make em flash all purty and red like, guess DDO can put in the proper safeguards. The enhancement system we have now didn't pop into existence overnight and lest we forget it was it's own update. Really you're worried about enhancements (maybe you picked a bad example here)? Guess what enhancements can be reset *gasp*. Other "illegal" stuff can be dealt with too. Have a little faith in the pure coders, we're not askign em to design a quest, texture some walls, write a song or worse: design an icon for the respec UI.

If you can write a char planner as a freeware app in your off time, why can't the DDO coders (ppl who work full time at it, paid) write a proper class/skill respec system?

krud
12-03-2007, 09:56 AM
Clearly we differ on how talented we think some programmers are. Ya it's not a Hello World app, but sheesh you're making it sound like it would require them to write a DDO OS. If The Planner can flag things and make em flash all purty and red like, guess what DDO can put in the proper safeguards. The enhancement system we have now didn't pop into existence overnight and lest we forget it was it's own update. Really you're worried about enhancements (maybe you picked a bad example here)? Guess what enhancements can be reset *gasp*. Other "illegal" stuff can be dealt with too. Have a little faith in the pure coders, we're not askign em to design a quest, texture some walls, write a song or worse: design an icon for the respec UI.

Designing a quest, texture walls, etc is actually the simpler, albeit labor intensive task. You know people won't be satisfied with just changing one level, there are suggestions of allowing up to 40% of the levels. Change one level and you now have to respec an illegal feat, yet if they change other levels they may be able to get it back, or maybe not. How to do two or more levels simultaneously? It not only becomes technically difficult, but logically difficult. At that point you might as well start the build from scratch. Is that what we want? Skill points will also undoubtably get changed, yet no one will be satisfied if the changes end up giving them too few skill points. Err on the positive side? Why should respeccers get bonus skill points? Because they deserve it? Are the reasons for allowing rebuilds so compelling as to warrant the dev effort? I just don't see it.

gpk
12-03-2007, 10:09 AM
Point i was tryign to make is that programmers don't touch texturing and map making, they suck at those things :)

Seeing as how DDO is still in flux, feats, skills classes etc all change, NOT allowing a respec system is hurtful to the player base. Not everything has been mapped out to level 30 and stuff changes, hell some changes cam after a year of DDO. Some of those changes directly affect the class choices made, like splashing a level or two of this or that. Some of the choices made that may have been invalidated by changes made to DDO later and can seriously affect that character. Re-rolling is not an option for a variety of reason I would think are obvious.

Are you really worried about that +1 extra skill/level? I'm not. It wouldn't be fair to the ppl who ate some +2 tomes early on to deny them the extra skills or qualifying for a feat . Heck it may turn out that they do keep a history of what tomes you ate when and can just reapply them accordingly, in which case moot point.

Just for the record I personally haven't really been affected by any changes made over DDO's lifetime but I've been kinda lucky in that respect. Just because it doesn't affect me however doesn't mean I can't see the benefit a respec system would provide to a huge number of players now and in the future. Future changes may very well affect you and me, if you wanna look at it from a more selfish perspective.

Dexxaan
12-03-2007, 10:13 AM
I simply can't believe the amount of effort put into this thread.

I agree with the Premium Service approach. $ 100 or $ 150 oughta pay for a programmers time to fix all your wrongs.

But then again, then we'll have threads complaining against the Re-Levelling system thats broke or unfair because their tomes, their progression Skill points or it favor's.... Dwarves :eek:; basically another outlet for those who always seem to figure something is ALWAYS WRONG OR UNFAIR ....

My request?

Close the thread.

krud
12-03-2007, 10:28 AM
Point i was tryign to make is that programmers don't touch texturing and map making, they suck at those things :)

Seeing as how DDO is still in flux, feats, skills classes etc all change, NOT allowing a respec system is hurtful to the player base. Not everything has been mapped out to level 30 and stuff changes, hell some changes cam after a year of DDO. Some of those changes directly affect the class choices made, like splashing a level or two of this or that. Some of the choices made that may have been invalidated by changes made to DDO later and can seriously affect that character. Re-rolling is not an option for a variety of reason I would think are obvious.
"We need a rogue for this raid".... "Hold on! let me respec my ranger..."

Are you really worried about that +1 extra skill/level? I'm not. It wouldn't be fair to the ppl who ate some +2 tomes early on to deny them the extra skills or qualifying for a feat . Heck it may turn out that they do keep a history of what tomes you ate when and can just reapply them accordingly, in which case moot point.
If you are not so worried about those skill points then you shouldn't be so worried if you loose one or two, right?

Just for the record I personally haven't really been affected by any changes made over DDO's lifetime but I've been kinda lucky in that respect. Just because it doesn't affect me however doesn't mean I can't see the benefit a respec system would provide to a huge number of players now and in the future. Future changes may very well affect you and me, if you wanna look at it from a more selfish perspective.
"HUGE number? I doubt it. A few stat obsessed min/maxxers, maybe"

The examples people have mentioned as reasons to allow respec are nowhere near game breaking, nor are they gimp-making. I can think of many more important issues, such as mods and AI, that could use the effort.

Ron
12-03-2007, 10:31 AM
Point i was tryign to make is that programmers don't touch texturing and map making, they suck at those things :)
Boy, that's the truth. You should see some of my programmer graphics, LOL. Or better yet, save yourself the pain and don't :)


Clearly we differ on how talented we think some programmers are. Ya it's not a Hello World app, but sheesh you're making it sound like it would require them to write a DDO OS (I'm sure Bill G or Steve J would love that). If The Planner can flag things and make em flash all purty and red like, guess DDO can put in the proper safeguards. The enhancement system we have now didn't pop into existence overnight and lest we forget it was it's own update. Really you're worried about enhancements (maybe you picked a bad example here)? Guess what enhancements can be reset *gasp*. Other "illegal" stuff can be dealt with too. Have a little faith in the pure coders, we're not askign em to design a quest, texture some walls, write a song or worse: design an icon for the respec UI.

It's a different situation though. The planner simply has to check over your character (race/class/skills/feats/spells/enhancements) and make sure everything is still nice and legal. If it's not, it flags it to say "Hey, you need to change this". The planner has it easy in that respect, because people WILL change it (they have no reason not to and a good reason to in that the plan they come up with couldn't be done in-game). In theory, people can save plans with illegal stuff in it and print it out and post it on the forums all they want, but the presumption is they won't. Contrast that to the game where (certain) people will do everything in their power to NOT make those changes (i.e. exploit) to get a more powerful character. It's a whole extra level of checking that would have to be done.

I'm not saying it *couldn't* be done, but I wouldn't want to do it, heh.


If you can write a char planner as a freeware app in your off time, why can't the DDO coders (ppl who work full time at it, paid) write a proper class/skill respec system?

I'm sure they could. But in all honesty I prefer they spend their time working on Mod6 stuff than respec stuff. I guess it's just a matter of priorities.

Plus, like it or not, there is a certain amount to be gained (by Turbine) in forcing you to reroll rather than respec. Certainly a reroll would require more time in game (because you have to relevel it), which in turn translates to more subs and more income. To be sure, there is a segment of the population that will cancel rather than reroll that you might have retained if there was a respec option, but by the same token, if there was a respec option, there is a certain segement of the population that would leave out of boredom (since they are at the cap and they can respec right back to the cap, there is no need to reroll). I honestly really don't know which way retains more subs, but it seems that Turbine thinks making you reroll will retain more, since they don't seem to be working on any sort of respec system (that I know of anyway).

Serpent
12-03-2007, 12:57 PM
The examples people have mentioned as reasons to allow respec are nowhere near game breaking, nor are they gimp-making. I can think of many more important issues, such as mods and AI, that could use the effort.

One question, would the ability rerespec affect you? Would it really? If so please tell us why.

I'm not sure why people are against the idea except for the fact that they actually think others will be better then them if they had the chance to change the mistakes or to augument there abilities with the change in game. Are you scared of not being as good anymore, or have you made a mistake and rerolled yourself and think others should be required to do teh same?

Also the idea that we need a rogue so let me respec my ranger as a rogue is assinine. Really it would probably take a good hour to respec an entire character, I know just getting new enhancements take me a little time. Second If there is a fee involved such as say 2 Dragonshards or 5 Dragonshards then I doubt people will be rushing out to mess around with their characters every 5 minutes.

krud
12-03-2007, 01:23 PM
One question, would the ability rerespec affect you? Would it really? If so please tell us why.

I'm not sure why people are against the idea except for the fact that they actually think others will be better then them if they had the chance to change the mistakes or to augument there abilities with the change in game. Are you scared of not being as good anymore, or have you made a mistake and rerolled yourself and think others should be required to do teh same?

Also the idea that we need a rogue so let me respec my ranger as a rogue is assinine. Really it would probably take a good hour to respec an entire character, I know just getting new enhancements take me a little time. Second If there is a fee involved such as say 2 Dragonshards or 5 Dragonshards then I doubt people will be rushing out to mess around with their characters every 5 minutes.

It won't affect my characters one bit because I don't care about gaining or loosing a point here or there. None of my characters are so anally tuned that they can't withstand the various changes that come and go. I don't give a rats ass what the character standing next to me has. As long as they can have fun and are not completely inept, I'm good to go.

However, It will affect my enjoyment of the game if rather than adding new content or fixing bugs, dev time is diverted to this nonsense. Are the things people talk about respeccing so damaging to their builds that it requires a complete respec? Are all the changes really so damaging to so many characters that people would divert dev time to "fix" it, rather than work on new content, or improved AI?

Fallout
12-03-2007, 01:46 PM
However, It will affect my enjoyment of the game if rather than adding new content or fixing bugs, dev time is diverted to this nonsense. Are the things people talk about respeccing so damaging to their builds that it requires a complete respec? Are all the changes really so damaging to so many characters that people would divert dev time to "fix" it, rather than work on new content, or improved AI?

Nonsense? Its a big issue with alot of people, alot more than you think. Whats important in DDO/PnP etc? Yes, the characters. The characters are what drives the game. And if people not happy with the characters, then if effects their enjoyment of the game. I rather have the chance to fix my characters then to see lame content like the Necro series. If it wasn't for the favor and the loot, I would never step foot in it more than once.

Having some type of respec/reroll in place, free or paid, should be on top of the list.

krud
12-03-2007, 03:02 PM
And how much does it really affect those characters if they couldn't get a respec? Is it a matter of +/-1 AC, to-hit, etc? Is that worth the dev effort? How much time, raid loot and tomes did people really spend on characters that were so out of whack that they need a respec to fix everything? or are we only talking about minor tweaks in order to squeeze out the maximum possible DPS, AC, attack bonus, etc? So, we then have characters that people can respec and be happy with (or more likely will still be unhappy with), yet have nowhere to go except on the same old raid and loot runs?

it seems to me that the people who want the respec are the ones more concerned with what everyone esle has. "I can get this enhancement/feat so i'm not going to be as good as the toon who can. I need a respec!"

btw - my original 28pt 1rgr/13wiz would benefit greatly from a level respec if end-game, elite, maximum efficiency were all I cared about. However, he works just fine without it, and is plenty enjoyable to play.

Fallout
12-03-2007, 03:05 PM
And how much does it really affect those characters if they couldn't get a respec?

However, he works just fine without it, and is plenty enjoyable to play.

>And how much does it really affect those characters if they couldn't get a respec?

Its the difference between a L14 mule and an active character.

> However, he works just fine without it, and is plenty enjoyable to play.

Good for you. But apparently alot of people do not feel the same way with our chars.

krud
12-03-2007, 03:13 PM
OK, then let's hear exactly what is wrong with all these characters that no one likes to play anymore, and how much would get "fixed" if they could respec. Let's see just how gimped they are, and how much of a level respec would be needed to set things right. *edit* Oh yeah, and how much raid loot and tomes do you have invested in all these unplayable characters?

I remember the same things being said when the evasion fix came in. How many batmans were deleted or retired as a result? I suspect not that many.

Fallout
12-03-2007, 03:21 PM
OK, then let's hear exactly what is wrong with all these characters, and how much would get "fixed" if they could respec. Let's see just how gimped they are, and how much of a level respec would be needed to set things right.

Why does it matter to you? You are not the one playing my characters. And characters of other people who wants a respec.

But to give an example of my day 1 sorc.

28pt build. I made him for mobile spell casting since I hate spells getting interrupted while accidently moving. So that requires dex. Now since everyone gets it for free, I would have put it into con instead.

Skills, the only usefull thing I had was UMD. Since the skills weren't working or broken, I put some into different things. Now I would have dump alot into balance. And one into diplomacy.

My 28 pt paladin could sure use the 32 pt build, since paladins are a needy class. Almost max favor. I put bunch of points into heal instead of jump, since I thought being a paladin, heal skill would be usefull.

I had a ranger that splash fighter to get SOTR. Of course they gave it for free too.

Are they still playable? Yes. But am I happy? No. Bottom line is, if in the back of people's mind they aren't happy with their characters, then its a reason for respec.

If you're happy, good for you. But alot of people arent.

krud
12-03-2007, 03:41 PM
What you are describing is an attribute or skill respec. It's quite a bit different than the level respec people are asking for.

They already have feat respec for feat changes. For 28pt builds I said before that they should be given 4 more build points at 1750. That should make up for mispent points at build, and put them on par with subsequent 32pt builds. Skill respec? I really don't care one way or another.

Why does it matter? because I want to know why people are demanding the devs invest the time. There needs to be good reason to divert dev time and energy into such a project. Are the reasons people give valid, or do they just like to constantly tweak their toons every way possible? I want to hear from "a lot of people that aren't" happy with their toons. Are there really "a lot".?

Thame
12-03-2007, 03:43 PM
Level Respecing is as simple as respecing a feat. You made a wrong choice and now you want to "fix" your mistake. However fixing your mistake is going to cost you, a possible material like a Dragonshard for example and a sum of plat. For every level you wish to respec, you will need another possible material and more plat.

In my opinion this is a great idea because since the beginning of the game things in DDO have been changing and things have been changed. For example say that Paladin level you took to use a wand or possibly for an aura bonus or that fighter level you took on your rogue so he/she could wear full plate while still evading those traps. Maybe your pure class but you would like to benefit from another class like 2 ranger for twf.

There is never a set plan of information to level 20 so you can never know what is going to happen. Who knows exactly what is coming in the future? Not everything can be implemented and maybe that fighter level you took on your character may be the worst mistake you've made and now you cant get that uber feat or enhancement later on.

You might say, ok well just reroll your toon and get on with the game. But my argument is that myself and some friends have been playing since the start. The characters have tomes and raid loots all put into them. Why should i have to give that up just because the game decides to change its mind halfway through and leave us out in the cold? You might say but its only 1 level or even 2. Sure but i play the game for fun and to enjoy myself after a long day. I wouldnt be enjoying myself as much if i always felt a little gimped because of the choice i made which turbine decided to change 1 year later.

It even benefits those newcomers to DDO. When i first started i had half as much idea then as i do now. On my very first character i screwed many things up like his feats and his leveling and yes i did reroll only because he was level 8 and at the time level 10 being the cap. He had no raid loot and was in my opinion, a terrible toon. If i had the chance to change his feats and levels perhaps that character would still be around.

My point is that with all the changes that occur in DDO i believe its reasonable that we should be allowed to re-adjust our characters so they we can make our characters exactly how we would like them.

Just my 2 cents,
Riminy

they will never do this simply because then you wouldnt have to go and grind out another month to reroll a toon. you would simply respec 1 character to a new 'version' to see if you like it. if not then change it back. They cant eliminate the 'grind' situations or people would be leaving by the 100's. Wait theres prob not that many people left....

DDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM MM

Fallout
12-03-2007, 03:53 PM
What you are describing is an attribute or skill respec. It's quite a bit different than the level respec people are asking for.

They already have feat respec for feat changes. For 28pt builds I said before that they should be given 4 more build points at 1750. That should make up for mispent points at build, and put them on par with subsequent 32pt builds.

Why does it matter? because I want to know why people are demanding the devs invest the time. There needs to be good reason to divert dev time and energy into such a project. Are the reasons people give valid, or do they just like to constantly tweak their toons every way possible?

Thats only my examples. There are examples of multi-classing. What then? Class respec? There's also the arguement of skill allocation. 4 additional build points is not as easy at it seems. What happens after you eat a tome? Then the attribute cost more.

So its much easier just to do a reroll that covers it all if you can re-design the character from scratch.

>Are the reasons people give valid, or do they just like to constantly tweak their toons every way possible?

Both are valid reasons. Like I said before, what drives this game is character and builds. If you think character and builds are not important, then you're playing the wrong game.

krud
12-03-2007, 03:57 PM
Whats important in DDO/PnP etc? Yes, the characters. The characters are what drives the game.

That's what I see written, but that's not what you're saying. If it's the characters that are important, then a point here or there shouldn't matter. It sounds like it's the numbers (or maximizing them) that are important.

Fallout
12-03-2007, 03:59 PM
It sounds like it's the numbers (or maximizing them) that are important.

If they weren't important then Turbine would not assign numbers to them. They could easily put 'low', 'medium', 'high'.

krud
12-03-2007, 04:01 PM
Thats only my examples. There are examples of multi-classing. What then? Class respec? There's also the arguement of skill allocation. 4 additional build points is not as easy at it seems. What happens after you eat a tome? Then the attribute cost more.
Inherent bonuses are calculated separately. remove all items, etc. and you are left with base scores plus any level attribute raises. Should be easy to figure out.
So its much easier just to do a reroll that covers it all if you can re-design the character from scratch.

>Are the reasons people give valid, or do they just like to constantly tweak their toons every way possible?

Both are valid reasons. Like I said before, what drives this game is character and builds. If you think character and builds are not important, then you're playing the wrong game.

Well, your examples don't fit well into the level respec discussion. I keep hearing that there are SO MANY people who need a class respec. Where are they? How many screwed up multiclassers with lots of tomes and bound items are out there that need a level respec?

krud
12-03-2007, 04:06 PM
deleted

Serpent
12-03-2007, 04:10 PM
Well, your examples don't fit well into the level respec discussion. I keep hearing that there are SO MANY people who need a class respec. Where are they? How many screwed up multiclassers with lots of tomes and bound items are out there that need a respec?

Well I have seen 5 posters in this thread and I know of at least 10 others who won't post because of all the people who trash their ideas. These are just ideas after all. Also I don't really hang with the entire server so from the few people I do know well that works out to be a large amount. Then there is Kargon's thread that also had a lot of people asking same thing. Lets be honest, a respec system to get rid of that level of fighter you thought was good idea but wasn't, won't break the game. A system to allow all those loved 28 point builds join the 32 point club won't hurt it either. Heck my main was holding tomes and enjoying raid loot before the favor implementation, should I reroll him no of course not but I would like teh option to see 32 points and I think it is worth looking into.

If we subtract Litany of the Dead 2 and 3 and that awful raid and put that time to a respec guess what we would have respeccing and we wouldn't miss those quests. And if you do well you are in the small minority on that one. But I think you are a smart player and see what I am saying. I'm not asking you to agree but simply consider what I am thinking.

gpk
12-03-2007, 06:50 PM
I keep hearing that there are SO MANY people who need a class respec. Where are they? How many screwed up multiclassers with lots of tomes and bound items are out there that need a level respec?

As Serpent said, they don't come on the forums precisely because of the replies we've seen in this thread and countless others. So it's up to the suicidal loudmouths like Serpent, Riminy myself and others to try to "represent" them.

Gornin
12-03-2007, 07:03 PM
Just a response to an earlier criticism of my post about my 2 28 point toons. You tell me how my toons are gimped. My cleric only has 1100 SP. I started him out with only a 14 wisdom. Figured by level 20 he would have at least an 18 maybe a 19 if I got lucky and found a tome. I listen to the other clerics in my guild and they have like 1500 SP. I have taken all the SP boost enhancements and both mental toughness. I think he has a 14 ST DEX, 12 CON, 14 INT and 12 CHA. I may be off a point or 2 but I am not on game atm. See, in PnP, My clerics can usually get right up there and wail away next to the fighter. I have good AC, decent to hit and help prevent the fighter from getting flanked. I was so wrong how this game was going to turn out. Can't hardly hit anything, barely can turn anything - give very good DV though. The reason he still gets played and has raid loot is guildies. They support my cleric because I am always willing to play him if everyone else wants to play a certain toon to get it a certain peice of raid loot. They keep me in scrolls, wands and Mnemonic pots, and they adjust their play style a little to accomodate. So yes he is successful with help. Be nice if I could redesign him to how this game is so he could be less dependent and more dependable.

The same pretty much goes for my Elven Wiz. I designed her to be a battle wizard. High dex for AC and ranged and some decent points in Str and Con. She only has 1045 SP. There are wizzies out there with 1500, so that is about 1/3, no? Same as above for why she still gets playtime and loot.


I am not asking for devs to devote time to this over content and bug fixes, but it honestly does not seem that a lot of time would be needed to do this. Some programmer will probably correct me as I am a hardware tech and only know enough programming to be dangerous. All that would need to be done is for the character to enter the creation screen and respec attributes with the new 32 point feature, choose initial feats and skills, then let him walk to each trainer and do the level ups until he is level maxed. The intel boost is the only real problem. I would probably lose some skill points on my cleric. Do like I said and drop the inherent bonuses at recreation, and create a bound tome that can't be used until level 10. Only a few will get the extra skill points that way. And once again with the inflation in this game, it won't make that much of a difference.

Fallout
12-03-2007, 10:22 PM
Well, your examples don't fit well into the level respec discussion. I keep hearing that there are SO MANY people who need a class respec. Where are they? How many screwed up multiclassers with lots of tomes and bound items are out there that need a level respec?

Dude try search. Its your friend.

krud
12-04-2007, 07:55 AM
There are many respec options laid out there, but not all are calling for a level respec system. Most respec options are along the lines of "I want to be able to rearrange some skill points or attributes", or "I want to be able to make my 28pt toon into a 32pt build without loosing bound gear and tomes". Quite a bit different than a level respec. In order to make this seem like a pressing issue some people are presenting worst case scenarios of how toons have been made gimp, yet when asked how, it's always "well, it's not my toons but I know a friend of a guildie who knows someone who needs the level respec". Is there an urgent need for people to respec class levels, or is it just people who are bored with their capped toons and don't want to bother starting over?

krud
12-04-2007, 09:28 AM
some solutions: maybe should post in a different thread.

I would be for skill and attribute respec being a paid premium service. Why? Because it is much simpler to implement than a class respec, and it probably covers >90% of the reasons why people want a respec. A paid service is also equal for both power gamers and casual players alike. Casual gamers don't have the time to acquire the shards and plat to fix their mistakes, or the time to reroll or even discover their mistakes until it's too late.

Attribute respec would be the easiest. Just put them at the character build screen (add 4 pts for any 28pt who's reached 1750) and let them have at it. Any adjustment to Int that is going to increase/reduce the number of skill points you have to spend will require a skill respec too.

Skill respec: this is going to be more difficult. Based on how many ranks you currently have in your skills and your class makeup one should be able to figure out how many total in-class and cross-class skill points you have spent. This should more accurately account for attribute raises and tomes than simply assuming they were applied at level 1. You then allocate them accordingly (plus or minus any changes from attribute respec). I haven't figured out the math yet, but this might work. One concern is how to make sure one isn't able to concentrate his points in fewer skills than he normally could. Needs some more thought.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 09:33 AM
Based on how many ranks you currently have in your skills and your class makeup one should be able to figure out how many total in-class and cross-class skill points you have spent.

Unfortunately, no, there is no way to know that.

krud
12-04-2007, 11:10 AM
Unfortunately, no, there is no way to know that.

Yep. I tried the math, but without knowing when any Int/tome raises where applied, it's next to impossible. And without any way to separate any one respec from another it looks like "No respec for you!". I still think allowing 4 build points to 28pt characters who reach 1750 favor can be done.

After thinking about the question "whats the big deal about a few skill points?" It can amount to the equivalent of one or more extra free feats. I have a 7rog/7ftr who could receive the equivalent of 2 or 3 skill focus feats if his tomes were applied from the start rather than at the level he actually used them.

MysticTheurge
12-04-2007, 12:19 PM
After thinking about the question "whats the big deal about a few skill points?" It can amount to the equivalent of one or more extra free feats. I have a 7rog/7ftr who could receive the equivalent of 2 or 3 skill focus feats if his tomes were applied from the start rather than at the level he actually used them.

Well except extra skill points don't let you ignore the normal skill rank maximums.

krud
12-04-2007, 12:35 PM
Well except extra skill points don't let you ignore the normal skill rank maximums.

true, but it allows one to achieve maximum in more skills than otherwise possible, or get away with fewer stat points of Int in order to achieve the desired ranks.

Fallout
12-04-2007, 06:00 PM
An example of a need:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128640

In his case, wasted a few weeks. If Turbine encourages this kind of system with no safety net (respec), no wonder casual games are dwindling.

Gornin
12-05-2007, 07:05 PM
some solutions: maybe should post in a different thread.

I would be for skill and attribute respec being a paid premium service. Why? Because it is much simpler to implement than a class respec, and it probably covers >90% of the reasons why people want a respec. A paid service is also equal for both power gamers and casual players alike. Casual gamers don't have the time to acquire the shards and plat to fix their mistakes, or the time to reroll or even discover their mistakes until it's too late.

Attribute respec would be the easiest. Just put them at the character build screen (add 4 pts for any 28pt who's reached 1750) and let them have at it. Any adjustment to Int that is going to increase/reduce the number of skill points you have to spend will require a skill respec too.

Skill respec: this is going to be more difficult. Based on how many ranks you currently have in your skills and your class makeup one should be able to figure out how many total in-class and cross-class skill points you have spent. This should more accurately account for attribute raises and tomes than simply assuming they were applied at level 1. You then allocate them accordingly (plus or minus any changes from attribute respec). I haven't figured out the math yet, but this might work. One concern is how to make sure one isn't able to concentrate his points in fewer skills than he normally could. Needs some more thought.


Did you read my response to your questions about my toon? In fact I have run in a couple of groups with you in the past week. Guess what? I was playing my cleric on the one reaver run. Who died first and soon? Vargas, thats who.

Guess what I really want is a rebuild from ground up and take advantage of the 32 point builds and do him right. Won't be able to afford it if it is a premium or expensive in game option, so I don't like that idea. Like I have said before, all I want is to rebuild my toons better to fit the game. I will never have the time to be uber, and don't care to be, just want to be effective so my guildies don't have to pull my butt along.

krud
12-05-2007, 07:20 PM
Did you read my response to your questions about my toon? In fact I have run in a couple of groups with you in the past week. Guess what? I was playing my cleric on the one reaver run. Who died first and soon? Vargas, thats who.

Guess what I really want is a rebuild from ground up and take advantage of the 32 point builds and do him right. Won't be able to afford it if it is a premium or expensive in game option, so I don't like that idea. Like I have said before, all I want is to rebuild my toons better to fit the game. I will never have the time to be uber, and don't care to be, just want to be effective so my guildies don't have to pull my butt along.

With the lack of documentation available that is a real easy thing to do, and I believe it is a very good reason for a respec option. I know plenty of casual gamers who really could use a respec, and will never run high end content enough to ever afford the plat or shards to earn a respec. However, getting a respec for free is just not going to happen. If it is a pay per use premium service (the going rate for char rename is $9.95) at least casual gamers (those who need the respecs the most) will have a chance. It doesn't have to cost an arm or a leg, but enough so someone has to be sure they want it before going ahead and respeccing every character they have.

However, I do see you have 4 capped (or at least max level) characters. That's a little more than casual. I play often and have only 2, with 2 more closing in. The casual gamers I know don't even have one.

bellack
12-10-2007, 08:18 AM
It should not cost the players a thing. I did not know they were going to allow 32 point characters, along with many other changes and rewards that changed game play. I should not have to pay extra to gain access to things I already earned, or to allow my 28 point character to be respecced to a 32 point character, especially since that is the one I earned the 32 point favor with. It is already too costly to respec feats and enhancements, imo.

A total reroll is needed in this game, as per the thread Kargon started. I just want to to be able to reward my initial characters by allowing them to benefit from the rewards they earned. As for int tomes, I don't care if people get some extra skill points, with the inflation in this game it won't hardly matter.


And don't get me started on how much money people have in this game.


How about this. After every MAJOR change we should get one free total respect per game. But Races and Classes should not be allowed to be changed. Any other respec beyond the first should require an IN GAME charge. None of this having to pay real money to respect characters.

Souless
01-11-2008, 01:35 PM
Ok, I haven't acctually read the entire post.....

However, I would like to put my 2 cents in....

A SKILL respec would be AWSOME! Mainly because I have been playing DDO from the begining AND have wasted skill points.....

A LEVEL respec would be AWSOME! I don't care if I can gain some perceved (real) advantage by leveling in a specific fashon (after I've read a +2 or +3 Int tome) and gain extra skill points. Or dropping that fighter level I took on my cleric. I don't care about pnp zealots who say this CAN"T be done. The ponit is: It can and should be done because the game has undergone some significant changes since day 1. What was SOP in the begining is now a "mistake". I would like to correct my errors....not delete them!

And that doesn't even consider non-transferable gear!

After completing over 20 dragon raids, 30 queen raids, 20 titan raids, and something like 15 reaver raids I don't want to loose MY bound gear! Deleting the toon is just not an option for me!

So please dev's put in a respec! ASAP!

the Bytcher~