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parvo
11-28-2007, 04:48 PM
We need some feedback here. How are bugs verified and prioritized? What bugs are known? Which ones have you given up on? Which ones are you working on? I don't mind writing bug reports but I don't like stomping down my party every single time on the same bugs. I get the impression priority has something to do with number of reports. I can be the squeaky wheel if it helps, but either way my session is less fun. Buggy quest = less fun. Writing redundant bug reports = less fun. The least you could do is let us know what bug reports you don't need anymore.

DaveyCrockett
11-28-2007, 07:14 PM
That is a very good point, and you would think that the 'Known Issues' would be used for that purpose and would be updated more often than with module releases.

Ghoste
11-29-2007, 12:24 AM
Good point. A frustration I've had for some time. The controversial bug I have posted a lot about would have resulted in a lot less controversy and frustration had the devs simply said "yes" or "no".

Silthe
11-29-2007, 10:21 AM
I can only speak for the QA process, but multiple bug reports of the same bug generally aren't helpful unless you have new information to report. For simple things like a stuck location, just the /loc and Ward/Dungeon it's in is sufficient and we don't need to see those more than once.

For more complicated things that seem to have no reliable steps to reproduce, multiple reports are useful provided that you have new or at least different data for us to work with. And the more detail you can provide on character build, party makeup, spells and effects in use at the time, etc, the more helpful those sorts of reports are.

In general though, anything you think is a bug should be reported. Even if the game is working as intended, it clearly is confusing you so perhaps better in-game feedback is required so you and others aren't confused.

My suggestion is that if you've already entered a bug report, don't report it again if you have nothing new to say. Wait for the next major release and see if it got fixed. If not, report it again. If it's especially hindering your gameplay, start a thread here to discuss it with others. Not only may others have a temporary work around for you, but it let's more people chime in as to their experiences. We often get more information on a tricky bug from a discussion thread here than a dozen isolated bug reports.

But please don't start threads about stuck locations. :)


~Silthe

Lorien_the_First_One
11-29-2007, 10:26 AM
But please don't start threads about stuck locations. :)


What if we start a thread about what to report and then hyjak it to talk about stuck locations? :cool:

Dane_McArdy
11-29-2007, 10:28 AM
What if we start a thread about what to report and then hyjak it to talk about stuck locations? :cool:

I come over to your house and talk about myself.





For several days.

Qzipoun
11-29-2007, 10:54 AM
Hmmm I never realized that "stuck-spots" were supposed to be bug reported. As I seem to be quite skilled at getting stuck in quests and around town I'll start reporting the more annoying ones :)

Missing_Minds
11-29-2007, 11:01 AM
Don't forget that if something seems to be a bug and you are certain there is one *cough* ranged attacks *cough* don't give up on it. Be polite, put in as much data as you can, and try to champion your cause in a non intrusive insulting manner.

parvo
11-29-2007, 11:19 AM
I can only speak for the QA process, but multiple bug reports of the same bug generally aren't helpful unless you have new information to report. For simple things like a stuck location, just the /loc and Ward/Dungeon it's in is sufficient and we don't need to see those more than once.

For more complicated things that seem to have no reliable steps to reproduce, multiple reports are useful provided that you have new or at least different data for us to work with. And the more detail you can provide on character build, party makeup, spells and effects in use at the time, etc, the more helpful those sorts of reports are.

In general though, anything you think is a bug should be reported. Even if the game is working as intended, it clearly is confusing you so perhaps better in-game feedback is required so you and others aren't confused.

My suggestion is that if you've already entered a bug report, don't report it again if you have nothing new to say. Wait for the next major release and see if it got fixed. If not, report it again. If it's especially hindering your gameplay, start a thread here to discuss it with others. Not only may others have a temporary work around for you, but it let's more people chime in as to their experiences. We often get more information on a tricky bug from a discussion thread here than a dozen isolated bug reports.

But please don't start threads about stuck locations. :)


~Silthe

Thanks for the feedback. This helps a bit.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-29-2007, 11:19 AM
I come over to your house and talk about myself.

For several days.

:eek: Ok, i'll behave

Svetelana
11-29-2007, 11:27 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=93871

tekn0mage
11-29-2007, 11:38 AM
I can only speak for the QA process, but multiple bug reports of the same bug generally aren't helpful unless you have new information to report. For simple things like a stuck location, just the /loc and Ward/Dungeon it's in is sufficient and we don't need to see those more than once.

For more complicated things that seem to have no reliable steps to reproduce, multiple reports are useful provided that you have new or at least different data for us to work with. And the more detail you can provide on character build, party makeup, spells and effects in use at the time, etc, the more helpful those sorts of reports are.

In general though, anything you think is a bug should be reported. Even if the game is working as intended, it clearly is confusing you so perhaps better in-game feedback is required so you and others aren't confused.

My suggestion is that if you've already entered a bug report, don't report it again if you have nothing new to say. Wait for the next major release and see if it got fixed. If not, report it again. If it's especially hindering your gameplay, start a thread here to discuss it with others. Not only may others have a temporary work around for you, but it let's more people chime in as to their experiences. We often get more information on a tricky bug from a discussion thread here than a dozen isolated bug reports.

But please don't start threads about stuck locations. :)


~Silthe

This makes sense Slithe, however I just can't help but wonder if fixing bugs every 3 or 4 months (according to "major release" cycle) is a strategy for failure. I can't tell you the number of times I've had new guildmates join up fresh from another game only to have to explain to them that no, that's a bug and it might be fixed this year it might not be.

I don't buy this argument that other games have slow development cycles. Bug fixes happen on a weekly or bi-weekly basis for many other MMO's. They tend to not stack large releases with a bunch of bug fixes. This not only shows the community the commitment to a good product, but it also avoids cramming "too much" into one release.

I think with the recent downtime (and it has happened in the past) that trying to do too much at once is an accident waiting to happen. A shorter, more frequent bugfix development cycle would go a long way in presenting a good product. This is just one man's opinion but I think you can find some wisdom in that approach.

Best of luck.

Tek

Dane_McArdy
11-29-2007, 11:57 AM
This makes sense Slithe, however I just can't help but wonder if fixing bugs every 3 or 4 months (according to "major release" cycle) is a strategy for failure. I can't tell you the number of times I've had new guildmates join up fresh from another game only to have to explain to them that no, that's a bug and it might be fixed this year it might not be.

I don't buy this argument that other games have slow development cycles. Bug fixes happen on a weekly or bi-weekly basis for many other MMO's. They tend to not stack large releases with a bunch of bug fixes. This not only shows the community the commitment to a good product, but it also avoids cramming "too much" into one release.

I think with the recent downtime (and it has happened in the past) that trying to do too much at once is an accident waiting to happen. A shorter, more frequent bugfix development cycle would go a long way in presenting a good product. This is just one man's opinion but I think you can find some wisdom in that approach.

Best of luck.

Tek

Whenever they can roll out fixes before a content release, they do. Like they are planning with the Abbot raid.

If they have too much downtime for this, you say it's wrong, they shouldn't have to update the game so much, interfering with peoples play time.

They limit it to when they are doing major updates, you say it's wrong, that every 3-4 months is to long to wait for a fix. I never saw bug fixes happening on a weekly basis when I played other MMO's. In fact, it was often 6-12 months. Or timed with new content.

And then to say, the tried to do too much? Um, the recent down time had nothing to do with fixing bugs in games. They said what they were doing. You can still find it on the forums if you look for it.

I'm sorry, but there are to many mixed signals from people to allow Turbine to every pick a course of action that won't have someone coming and posting how they have, in their wisdom, have a better way of doing something.

Dane_McArdy
11-29-2007, 12:05 PM
:eek: Ok, i'll behave

Gonna have to keep an eye on you!

tekn0mage
11-29-2007, 12:12 PM
Whenever they can roll out fixes before a content release, they do. Like they are planning with the Abbot raid.

If they have too much downtime for this, you say it's wrong, they shouldn't have to update the game so much, interfering with peoples play time.

They limit it to when they are doing major updates, you say it's wrong, that every 3-4 months is to long to wait for a fix. I never saw bug fixes happening on a weekly basis when I played other MMO's. In fact, it was often 6-12 months. Or timed with new content.

And then to say, the tried to do too much? Um, the recent down time had nothing to do with fixing bugs in games. They said what they were doing. You can still find it on the forums if you look for it.

1. First of all, I wasn't talking to you, so again we have an example of people "standing up" for Turbine when clearly they are big boys and can answer for themselves.

2. Secondly, don't you have me on ignore (I think you sent me a PM to that effect a long time ago)?

3. Third, I have never stated that downtime is a problem for me. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I explained that I never mind the downtime while bugs are being fixed and work is being done. So don't turn this into a flame based on things I have *never* said. That being said, I'll go on record to say that I wish there was MORE downtime, because that would mean more fixes are being implemented.

4. The six days of up/down during MOD3's release last year clearly indicates that yes, they tried to do too much. Every module we have had since then completely broke unrelated things. In fact, just this week a dev had stated that they "implement fixes for X, which breaks Y" and it's very frustrating for them.

5. You were obviously playing the wrong MMO's to see bugfixes once every 6 - 12 months. I'm not even going to get into that little pit of yours. There's only room for one there.

6. The recent downtime wasn't my only example of trying to "do too much". Besides, you weren't even there in the data center during the upgrade so you don't really know what the upgrade was about, or why it was being implemented. You only know what we know, so insinuating anything else is just pointless.

My general point is that the Development/Q&A cycle on small bugs is far too interdependent on "major releases" and should have their own development cycle on a much shorter timeline.

That being said, constructive criticism was offered, with no hostility on my part, and STILL you find a way to turn it into flamebait. Just another example of your negative contributions to the community Dane. One day, Turbine will muster the balls to deal with you for the troll you are.

Dane_McArdy
11-29-2007, 12:21 PM
1. First of all, I wasn't talking to you, so again we have an example of people "standing up" for Turbine when clearly they are big boys and can answer for themselves.

If you are going to post in a public forum, where ANYONE is allowed to respond, you have to accept that.

Otherwise, if you want to have a private conversation with someone, you sould conduct it in a private manner.

I was not answering for Turbine, I was refuting your claim about them not doing fixes outside of content update. And pointing out how no matter what they decide, you have fault with.

On top of that, someone asked a very legitimate question, and got a quick informative response from Turbine. One thing that you have been SO vocal about Turbine failing to do in the past. And what do you do, you critize the answer they give. When there is nothing wrong with the answer they give, or how they do things.

tekn0mage
11-29-2007, 12:43 PM
If you are going to post in a public forum, where ANYONE is allowed to respond, you have to accept that.


Look Dane, I'll never argue with you again if you can just stick to this point and respect MY right to post as much as I respect yours. I know this isn't going to happen because when it's someone else's point you always defend on the opposite end of that. You argue that this is TURBINE's forum and NOT a public forum. Too bad you only see it this way when it suits you.

Besides, just because someone says something you disagree with or have issue with, doesn't mean you HAVE to respond. It's called self-control, Dane.

Again, my original comments still stand as a constructive suggestion for the Q&A team in a relevant thread on relevant issues. You de-railing the thread to prove a point (bringing up old arguments, old threads, old issues) about me is so unnecessary. It's not like we expect any different from you, but enough already.

Silthe
11-29-2007, 12:49 PM
Let's not get derailed here. Tek, you make a valid point, but you assumed something from my post which wasn't intended so I will explain that.

I said that you should wait until after a major release to re-report a bug. This is because major releases have more bug fixes in them and are far more likely to have fixed the "less critical" bugs. If you notice, we always have at least one "patch" after a major release, sometimes two (I'm not counting the emergency hotfixes a day or two after a release - may we never see those again). These are planned "bug fixing" patches as we assume that you crafty players will have found ways to break things or more likely broken combinations of weapons, feats, spells, etc. that we missed.

However, these patches are the perfect example of us trying not to do too much. The last thing we want to do is release a patch to our patch. So we keep the number of changes to a minimum by using the simplistic measure of "Can we live with this until the next major release?" If the answer is no, it goes in the patch. If we decide it can wait, we add it to the known issues list so people will be aware of it and know that we're aware of it.

This is why I said to wait until the next major release. Your bug may not have "made the cut" for the interim patches, but is likely on the list for the major release.

Hope that makes a little more sense.


~Silthe

Laith
11-29-2007, 12:55 PM
Look Dane, I'll never argue with you again if you can just stick to this point and respect MY right to post as much as I respect yours. I know this isn't going to happen because when it's someone else's point you always defend on the opposite end of that. You argue that this is TURBINE's forum and NOT a public forum. Too bad you only see it this way when it suits you. but it IS both a public forum and it is owned by turbine. both of these facts mean entirely different things, but they are not conflicting in any way.
Consider this a public park that is owned by the government...


Besides, just because someone says something you disagree with or have issue with, doesn't mean you HAVE to respond. It's called self-control, Dane. pot, meet kettle.


Again, my original comments still stand as a constructive suggestion for the Q&A team in a relevant thread on relevant issues. yes, they were. dane criticized your suggestion. that doesn't mean you have to return to refute him. nevermind, no sense in trying to put out the fire between you two...

NameisToad
11-29-2007, 01:01 PM
Dane, you don't know me, because I almost never post here, so, to give you an idea where I'm coming from: I have Tekn0mage on ignore because I disagree with 99% of what he says and find that arguing with him draws flames more than reasoned responses. I think I only have two people ignored on this board, and Tekn0mage is one of them.

In this thread, Tekn0mage is in the right and Dane McArdy is in the wrong, in my opinion.

Tekn0mage answered Silthe with respect and dignity, offering an unsolicited opinion on a policy decision by Silthe's superiors. He placed no personal blame on Silthe, and surprised me with just how civil he could be.

Dane McArdy attacked him personally in a very trollish fashion.

---

In my opinion, it would be a good idea to have a small group of devs and QA-types work on bug fixes for short-term release, while the main body of devs continue to work on new content and long-term engine changes/bug fixes for major updates.

I'm pretty sure that's what Turbine is doing, and that Silthe has just told us that we should not look for communication from Turbine on which bugs are getting fixed or when, but rather to wait for module releases to see if our personal pet bug has been fixed in the major content release.

Tekn0mage is asking (politely, in this case) for more communication, after Silthe gently suggested to a new player that communication is simply not coming from this company. (or perhaps I should word that, "Silthe reminded a new player that actions speak louder than words.")

Edit: Silthe gave an example of a place where communication is supposed to go after I wrote this. (though, before I posted it)

Akhad_Durn
11-29-2007, 01:20 PM
I think with the recent downtime (and it has happened in the past) that trying to do too much at once is an accident waiting to happen. A shorter, more frequent bugfix development cycle would go a long way in presenting a good product. This is just one man's opinion but I think you can find some wisdom in that approach.


I don't think that its causing accidents to happen, but if something doesn't get fixed right for a module (x), it'll stay unfixed until the next module(x+n). I'd prefer to have some bug fix releases between the module releases. If we're looking at 3 months between modules, some easy bugs can sit for 3 months, while stuff that doesn't get fixed properly will remain for at least 6 months. It’s just annoying to see things which remain broken release after release. I understand that it’s much easier on the test team to bundle all the changes together so that everything gets hit by a single regression test pass though. But... targeted 'easy' (fixes which don't affect multiple areas) fixes should have limited scope, so it should be possible to test only what that fix is changing and not need to do a full product regression. If bug fix releases were limited only to these types of bugs, there would be a much better chance to get them fixed sooner.

Pet peeve bugs....

Getting stuck in place for no discernible reason. This is when your char gets stuck and can't move, but isn't in any place special. I didn't go anyplace abnormal, I wasn't jumping around, I was just standing on the 'floor'. With this issue recalling doesn't help, you're stuck where ever you recall to (town or another instanced area), only disconnecting and reconnecting 'fixes' it.

This isn't a high priority bug since there is an easy work around (disconnecting), but it’s annoying to keep seeing this from release to release.

...and...

Not being able to buy something until after hitting the sell button.

... There are more, but I'd really rather not get too far into them.

Leaving the known-work-around bugs alone works fine for a while, but if they're left too long, the product starts to become one big work around.

Spookydodger
11-29-2007, 01:20 PM
And then to say, the tried to do too much? Um, the recent down time had nothing to do with fixing bugs in games. They said what they were doing. You can still find it on the forums if you look for it.

Dane, for the love of anything you choose...

He said they try to do too much at once. There is a difference.

If they make their bug development cycle shorter, he is saying, not only does it

Look better to the population...
It also enables the developers, if something goes wrong, to narrow the source to a much smaller list of culprits if only because there are few things being changed at once.


As an example: For my web development, I found that reviewing my changes, step-by-step, is a much saner way to develop, especially for multiple browsers. If I put in a batch of changes all at once, if something goes wrong: it might be obvious, or it might be exceedingly obscured. The fewer things I changed at once, the fewer things I have to look at as the cause.

Turbine appears to be doing very little right, sometimes, because they don't update often and when they do, there are some serious errors that happen. Shorter development cycles with fewer things in them might be the key to it.

AGAIN: We are still talking about outputting the same amount of work. 1 x 15 == 5 x 3.

I hope this helps better understand the opinion of both Tek, and other people who happen to agree with him (on this issue or otherwise).

Dane_McArdy
11-29-2007, 01:22 PM
Slithe said not to get off track, so everyone can stop addressing Tek or Me about this.

I've stopped, I think all of you should as well.

Spookydodger
11-29-2007, 01:27 PM
If bug fix releases were limited only to these types of bugs, there would be a much better chance to get them fixed sooner.


From what I have seen, however... I don't know if they even know what systems affect what. This curse-not-affecting-NPC-skillchecks error is a potential example of that.

One would think that Spell A would do X, Y, and Z, with perhaps Xn, Yn, and Zn to mobs or mobs of other types. Changing one thing changes all things. However, it is already quite clear that there is a different procedure path for most things between mobs and players. It's not just a simplification, it is a diversion from a very root level.

I really don't know why this would be the case. It would seem orders of magnitude easier to have common things follow common rules.

This is all speculation, but I've been speculating for quite some time... so I hope I've divined something valid in that time.

Spookydodger
11-29-2007, 01:28 PM
Slithe said not to get off track, so everyone can stop addressing Tek or Me about this.

I've stopped, I think all of you should as well.

Obviously you haven't. ^^^^ Case in point. *cough* If you are going to post in a public forum, where ANYONE is allowed to respond, you have to accept that. *cough* *wink and chuckle*

No one minds you bringing varied viewpoints to the table. And most everyone was being very respectful and constructive, even when dealing with you.

So, lay it out for us: Which is better (in your opinion), shorter bug-fix cycle, or longer cycle with more rolled into a regression test.

Dane_McArdy
11-29-2007, 02:15 PM
Obviously you haven't. ^^^^ Case in point. *cough* If you are going to post in a public forum, where ANYONE is allowed to respond, you have to accept that. *cough* *wink and chuckle*

No one minds you bringing varied viewpoints to the table. And most everyone was being very respectful and constructive, even when dealing with you.

So, lay it out for us: Which is better (in your opinion), shorter bug-fix cycle, or longer cycle with more rolled into a regression test.

If you would go back and look, I haven't posted anything directed at Tek after Slithe said not get off track about the subject.

Then several people posted directed at both Tek and Me. Not about the subject, but about us. There is a difference between two posters telling each other it's a free or not free forum, and when an employee asks you to stay on subject.

So I'll lay it out for you.

The way Turbine does bug fixes is fine. They make judgment calls. As it should be. Can we live with this for now, or do we want to get this into place sooner? That is a company being wise, not following some set schedule of, Do bug fix every X days. I bet the original idea was to put the Abbot changes in Module 6, and they responded to players by fast tracking it.

THAT'S the kind of company that you want to deal with. The one that doesn't hide behind some policy, but make choices, based on judgment calls and input. Yes, that is what Turbine does. But what people want is so wide and varied, one choice leaves another out.

TechNoFear
11-29-2007, 08:18 PM
I don't want more downtime for minor bug fixes, as it is all in my playtime (my local time == turbine time +12/+14 DST)
Games that do a weekly/bi-weekly patch have weekly/nightly downtime in my prime playing time.

I have not bought two games (released since DDO) so far because they have downtime on a weekly/nightly basis.


I also work in software dev and understand the SDLC.

Critical fixes are rolled out ASAP. Others are released when a DT window allows.

I am happy with the priority Turbine seems to place on content v minor bug fixes.


Getting stuck in place for no discernible reason. This is when your char gets stuck and can't move, but isn't in any place special. I didn't go anyplace abnormal, I wasn't jumping around, I was just standing on the 'floor'. With this issue recalling doesn't help, you're stuck where ever you recall to (town or another instanced area), only disconnecting and reconnecting 'fixes' it.

Try tumbling / blocking and then moving. This works often for me.


Not being able to buy something until after hitting the sell button.

Just change the TAB's at the top of the dialog to 'Sell' and back to 'Buy' (no need to actually buy/sell).

Appears that the 'Buy' TAB is not recognised as the default TAB when the dialog is opened (and so the Buy functionality is not enabled/responsive).

Ghoste
11-30-2007, 06:35 AM
2. Secondly, don't you have me on ignore (I think you sent me a PM to that effect a long time ago)?
I know I sure did, but I clear my ignore lists ever so often. Maybe I shouldn't do that though.

Akhad_Durn
11-30-2007, 02:34 PM
I don't want more downtime for minor bug fixes, as it is all in my playtime (my local time == turbine time +12/+14 DST)
Games that do a weekly/bi-weekly patch have weekly/nightly downtime in my prime playing time.

I have not bought two games (released since DDO) so far because they have downtime on a weekly/nightly basis.


I also work in software dev and understand the SDLC.

Critical fixes are rolled out ASAP. Others are released when a DT window allows.

I am happy with the priority Turbine seems to place on content v minor bug fixes.


We're just going to have to continue to disagree on this then. I'm not suggesting nightly, or even weekly down time. Monthly would be enough. If Turbine is not fixing minor bugs, its telling me that Turbine doesn't have enough time to adress major bugs, and is cutting out working on the work-aroundables as method to gain time. This method of SD leds to bugs which will *never* get fixed since they're too minor, and time can't be made to fix them.

I guess what this really comes to is 'downtime'. I don't really mind it since it usually doesn't affect my play time (of course I don't mind, I still get to play :p). I'm on the US west coast and usually get time to play after 9pm. Turbine should move the window during which they release patches around, so that the same groups don't need to always be down play time.



Try tumbling / blocking and then moving. This works often for me.

Just change the TAB's at the top of the dialog to 'Sell' and back to 'Buy' (no need to actually buy/sell).

Appears that the 'Buy' TAB is not recognised as the default TAB when the dialog is opened (and so the Buy functionality is not enabled/responsive).

I'll give those a try, thanks for the suggestions.

parvo
12-01-2007, 01:43 AM
Let's not get derailed here. Tek, you make a valid point, but you assumed something from my post which wasn't intended so I will explain that.

I said that you should wait until after a major release to re-report a bug. This is because major releases have more bug fixes in them and are far more likely to have fixed the "less critical" bugs. If you notice, we always have at least one "patch" after a major release, sometimes two (I'm not counting the emergency hotfixes a day or two after a release - may we never see those again). These are planned "bug fixing" patches as we assume that you crafty players will have found ways to break things or more likely broken combinations of weapons, feats, spells, etc. that we missed.

However, these patches are the perfect example of us trying not to do too much. The last thing we want to do is release a patch to our patch. So we keep the number of changes to a minimum by using the simplistic measure of "Can we live with this until the next major release?" If the answer is no, it goes in the patch. If we decide it can wait, we add it to the known issues list so people will be aware of it and know that we're aware of it.

This is why I said to wait until the next major release. Your bug may not have "made the cut" for the interim patches, but is likely on the list for the major release.

Hope that makes a little more sense.


~Silthe

This has been helpful. My personal bug peave is the Death from Above bug right now. There just doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanaition for it and i't rare enough that gathering any info is tough. But I will continue to report it each and every time it happens in my groups. In hopes that something will give you guys a clue to this deadly bug.

tekn0mage
12-01-2007, 03:49 AM
Let's not get derailed here. Tek, you make a valid point, but you assumed something from my post which wasn't intended so I will explain that.

I said that you should wait until after a major release to re-report a bug. This is because major releases have more bug fixes in them and are far more likely to have fixed the "less critical" bugs. If you notice, we always have at least one "patch" after a major release, sometimes two (I'm not counting the emergency hotfixes a day or two after a release - may we never see those again). These are planned "bug fixing" patches as we assume that you crafty players will have found ways to break things or more likely broken combinations of weapons, feats, spells, etc. that we missed.

However, these patches are the perfect example of us trying not to do too much. The last thing we want to do is release a patch to our patch. So we keep the number of changes to a minimum by using the simplistic measure of "Can we live with this until the next major release?" If the answer is no, it goes in the patch. If we decide it can wait, we add it to the known issues list so people will be aware of it and know that we're aware of it.

This is why I said to wait until the next major release. Your bug may not have "made the cut" for the interim patches, but is likely on the list for the major release.

Hope that makes a little more sense.


~Silthe

Slithe I do appreciate your time. With all due respect however, many of us feel that there are simply too many issues that don't "make the cut" to get fixed in a timely fashion.

We still have bugs from beta that have never been fixed. I know the theme is "when we get time, we'll fix them" but after two years, if your team is THAT busy to fix things, then can you at least see where I'm coming from on this?

Your post here in the thread was addressed to the OP and underscored, in my opinion, a flaw in the QA system that lets far too many things slip into the "next patch". For example, we have another bug that was posted by Eladrin about curses not affecting monsters completely. He states that it's too late for it to be pushed into Module 6, and "possibly" (his words) would be included in Module 7.

Don't be misled by the fans here that pat you on the back too much. Many MMO's out there don't let annoying bugs last for 6 months, let alone 2 years. What will it take for you to see how much of a death blow this is? Advertise all you want, you'll never win over anyone with a development cycle that goes on that long. If you can't address this now, what can we do as players to help this cycle shorten up a bit?

If you tell us to A) Be more patient, that is fine. If you tell us to B) bring more players to DDO, then that also is fine, we can work on that for you. But if you say C) Don't worry about it, just keep playing the game... well that's not really what you want to say, is it?

Just open, honest communication is all we want. I'm certainly done fighting you all over it, and I hope you take my tone here as respectful and calm as I believe it should be read.

Dane_McArdy
12-01-2007, 07:34 AM
I would really like to see some comprehensive list of bugs since beta I've been hearing some much about. The way it's presented is taht there are these long lists of bugs since beta that seem to keep people from really enjoying the game. Bugs I've encountered once or never.

I was in beta. I was also on mournlands. One thing I know is we were given the same instructions on bug reporting that the player base has been given. What we did have as more communication with the devs about the whole bug process.

For example, the bug with paladins aura's going off and resetting every few second was a hard one for them to track down because for the longest time, all they got was "The buffs keep going off, fix it" as reports. And they didn't get many reports about it. The person who had to fix it, would try and reproduce it and couldn't. Finally after a long time of working on this, they got a report that had some very useful information about the make up of the party, that allowed them to reproduce the bug, and it was quickly fixed.

People seem to think what they report as a bug is clear and understandable. It's like when I get pages back from editors that have a piece of art circled and the words, wrong art. Well, what is the right art? Or wrong font. No, it's the right font, it's just at the wrong point size. If I followed their directions and changed the font style, I've only made it even more wrong, by following their directions, haven't I?

It's very easy to point and say, it's wrong. It's much harder to point and say, here is why it's wrong. And trust me, people will point and say, it's wrong 99 times out of 100. If it takes 6-12 months to get that one time that does in fact say why it's wrong, well, it's hard to fix something.

I have much sympathy with the QA department, because I see how professionals are bad at communicating, I can't imagine people that don't have to do anything like that on a regular basis being much better. Yes, they have the best intentions, that's clear. And no one is faulting them for not always giving the best information. But at the same time, Turbine can only work with what they give them.

Again, I see people say a long list of bugs since beta that needs fixing and hasn't been. But it's never followed up with an actual list of what those bugs are. And when pressed to come up with them, a few are generally posted, but you also get a lot of "It's been well documented on the forums, we don't have to tell you twice, go find it."

If it's so well documented on the forums, it should be easy to find, but some how, it never is, otherwise I would suspect people would be posting links to this well documented thread all the time.

The end is, it's easy to say it's wrong. It's not so easy to provide helpful information to help fix things. So unless you are part of the solution in providing useful information, Turbine, or any company can only work with what they get.

Aspenor
12-01-2007, 09:00 AM
http://z.about.com/d/paranormal/1/0/A/T/mongolian_death_worm.jpg

tekn0mage
12-01-2007, 01:11 PM
I would really like to see some comprehensive list of bugs since beta I've been hearing some much about. The way it's presented is taht there are these long lists of bugs since beta that seem to keep people from really enjoying the game. Bugs I've encountered once or never.

I was in beta. I was also on mournlands. One thing I know is we were given the same instructions on bug reporting that the player base has been given. What we did have as more communication with the devs about the whole bug process.

For example, the bug with paladins aura's going off and resetting every few second was a hard one for them to track down because for the longest time, all they got was "The buffs keep going off, fix it" as reports. And they didn't get many reports about it. The person who had to fix it, would try and reproduce it and couldn't. Finally after a long time of working on this, they got a report that had some very useful information about the make up of the party, that allowed them to reproduce the bug, and it was quickly fixed.


You know, Dane, you are so quick to call foul on people, and yet here you go blabbing about how things are. You couldn't be further from the truth.

Turbine was given AMPLE bug reports and AMPLE forum posts regarding the handspam/facespam. In fact, I myself gave a detailed report early on and knew that it was the Paladin's aura causing the problem. This I did not neglect to detail in MY bug report.

Secondly, regarding the bugs from beta, I find it hard to believe you participated in the Beta program and have no idea what bugs are/aren't still in the game. Someone who isn't me participated in Beta3 and Beta4 and have still bugs that were reported back then STILL in game. You know, this problem could have been solved if Turbine kept a list of 'Known Issues'.

Of course they don't keep this list public but it makes one wonder since every other MMO that I play keeps a RUNNING TAB of Known Issues. This is probably because most MMO's fix things within a VERY short timeframe. One game in particular that I am playing realizes that short turnaround time on bugs is crucial. Every two weeks they come out with huge patches and fixes. Even the "little things" that are situational and mere annoyances get fixed up. This is a lesson that Turbine hasn't learned yet, EVERY bug affects someone in the game. Letting them stand for months at a time (charmed creatures de-charming even while pink-hatted, weapon decay, bard songs not playing for others) is just inexcusable... no matter how much you stick up for them.

You can't just sit here and make blanket claims when it suits you. For the love of pete, stop with the "I have pity for the devs". They get paid well for their work, they're people too but it's hard to have pity for people that design games for a living. They ain't missing no meals, and they sure aren't riding a bicycle to work.

Jomee
12-01-2007, 01:20 PM
What if we start a thread about what to report and then hyjak it to talk about stuck locations? :cool:

Lol, one of the more popular one is in GiantHold at the boxes by the PotP Quest Giver.

Jomee
12-01-2007, 01:27 PM
Again, I see people say a long list of bugs since beta that needs fixing and hasn't been. But it's never followed up with an actual list of what those bugs are. And when pressed to come up with them, a few are generally posted, but you also get a lot of "It's been well documented on the forums, we don't have to tell you twice, go find it."


You know I've ran StormCleave at least 12 times on lowbies here lately and No Bugs at all :) so that is proof they work to fix the reported bugs.

Ustice
12-01-2007, 03:40 PM
This is why I said to wait until the next major release. Your bug may not have "made the cut" for the interim patches, but is likely on the list for the major release.

Can we get a list of known bugs (non-exploit at least) and their status? It would be nice if we could track them too. You could even have a status that says if you need more information, and then we could send you specific info if we come across it.

We don't expect the software to be bug-free. That isn't why we play. Bugs are a expected now-adays, and it would be nice to know what exist so that we can look out for them, and help to squish them.

iamsamoth0
12-02-2007, 11:14 AM
I come over to your house and talk about myself.





For several days.

You won't do it, I don't believe you:p.
There's this place in red fang I got stuck......

parvo
12-02-2007, 01:58 PM
I would really like to see some comprehensive list of bugs since beta I've been hearing some much about. The way it's presented is taht there are these long lists of bugs since beta that seem to keep people from really enjoying the game. Bugs I've encountered once or never.

I was in beta. I was also on mournlands. One thing I know is we were given the same instructions on bug reporting that the player base has been given. What we did have as more communication with the devs about the whole bug process.

For example, the bug with paladins aura's going off and resetting every few second was a hard one for them to track down because for the longest time, all they got was "The buffs keep going off, fix it" as reports. And they didn't get many reports about it. The person who had to fix it, would try and reproduce it and couldn't. Finally after a long time of working on this, they got a report that had some very useful information about the make up of the party, that allowed them to reproduce the bug, and it was quickly fixed.

People seem to think what they report as a bug is clear and understandable. It's like when I get pages back from editors that have a piece of art circled and the words, wrong art. Well, what is the right art? Or wrong font. No, it's the right font, it's just at the wrong point size. If I followed their directions and changed the font style, I've only made it even more wrong, by following their directions, haven't I?

It's very easy to point and say, it's wrong. It's much harder to point and say, here is why it's wrong. And trust me, people will point and say, it's wrong 99 times out of 100. If it takes 6-12 months to get that one time that does in fact say why it's wrong, well, it's hard to fix something.

I have much sympathy with the QA department, because I see how professionals are bad at communicating, I can't imagine people that don't have to do anything like that on a regular basis being much better. Yes, they have the best intentions, that's clear. And no one is faulting them for not always giving the best information. But at the same time, Turbine can only work with what they give them.

Again, I see people say a long list of bugs since beta that needs fixing and hasn't been. But it's never followed up with an actual list of what those bugs are. And when pressed to come up with them, a few are generally posted, but you also get a lot of "It's been well documented on the forums, we don't have to tell you twice, go find it."

If it's so well documented on the forums, it should be easy to find, but some how, it never is, otherwise I would suspect people would be posting links to this well documented thread all the time.

The end is, it's easy to say it's wrong. It's not so easy to provide helpful information to help fix things. So unless you are part of the solution in providing useful information, Turbine, or any company can only work with what they get.

There used to be a user produced "known" issues list. I think the creator got fed up and left. All your sympathy can't convince me that some of these things aren't easily fixed. I'm sorry but having the proper quest difficulty listed after one of the party members enters, doesn't take a genius. Don't bother trying to convince me that's a tough bug to fix. It's elementary and everyone (almost everyone) knows it. It's overlooked because no one who fixes these things cares. That's what I was getting at with my original question. How do I get turbine to care about the bugs I care about? I much appreciate the DEV's response. It's time to report the quest difficulty bug again, the death from above bug, the broken AI on Kobold sentries, etc... Not every session but at least once until mod six.

Silthe
12-03-2007, 06:07 PM
Thank you, tecn0mage, for your calmly worded opinions. While no one enjoys hearing their work criticized, it's important to hear negative feedback if one is ever going to improve. Respectfully worded posts such as yours and the OP make it easy to really hear what you're saying.

I'm not sure I have much in the way of answers that will satisfy tecn0mage, Parvo, or other critics here, but I will say what I can.

I question the number of annoying bugs players have bene reporting "since Beta." I think it's likely just a dozen or so issues that people run into a lot that make it seem like there are many more. That being said, there are still more "active" bugs lingering from Module to Module than we're particularly comfortable with, whether players notice them a lot or not.

I'll be honest, after DDO launched we were more concerned about addressing the major criticism to the game - lack of content - than fixing a lot of non-critical bugs. New content and systems (mail, auctions, favor, etc...) were the agenda and had priority over fixing the less than major bugs.

We've actually been spending more time recently though going back and attempting to fix a lot of the "classic" bugs of yesteryear, but it will still be a while before we've gotten to everyone's pet bug. Also keep in mind that something that may seem simple to fix is often quite tricky. The whole Stormcleave mess was fixed 18 times before we stopped getting reports of it. The infamous "Death From Above" issue has been fixed several times, each fix eliminating an aspect of the problem. There's another fix for it going in to Mod 6, but like Stormcleave, we hesitate to call it definitely fixed until we get no more reports of it happening.

The best advice I have is to keep submitting a bug report once every major module. It'll keep it on our radar, and if lots of people report the same bug that way, it'll get moved towards the top. Reporting it ten times yourself doesn't accomplish that much. We're looking at older bugs more than we used to, so there's a good chance that your most annoying bug will get investigated.

I know, not the answer anyone was hoping for, but I hope it's better than nothing.


~Silthe

Ustice
12-03-2007, 06:19 PM
So, any chance that we will get access to the bug repository (or at least a sub-set of it)? I'd love to act as a volunteer QA agent (limited, I know).

Pellegro
12-03-2007, 06:55 PM
We've actually been spending more time recently though going back and attempting to fix a lot of the "classic" bugs of yesteryear, but it will still be a while before we've gotten to everyone's pet bug. Also keep in mind that something that may seem simple to fix is often quite tricky. The whole Stormcleave mess was fixed 18 times before we stopped getting reports of it. The infamous "Death From Above" issue has been fixed several times, each fix eliminating an aspect of the problem. There's another fix for it going in to Mod 6, but like Stormcleave, we hesitate to call it definitely fixed until we get no more reports of it happening.

The best advice I have is to keep submitting a bug report once every major module. It'll keep it on our radar, and if lots of people report the same bug that way, it'll get moved towards the top. Reporting it ten times yourself doesn't accomplish that much. We're looking at older bugs more than we used to, so there's a good chance that your most annoying bug will get investigated.

I know, not the answer anyone was hoping for, but I hope it's better than nothing.


~Silthe



Clap ..........................clap ..........................clap ..................clap ........clap ......clap ....clap ..clap.clapclapclapclapclapclap

moorewr
12-03-2007, 08:42 PM
So, any chance that we will get access to the bug repository (or at least a sub-set of it)? I'd love to act as a volunteer QA agent (limited, I know).

A bugzilla! A bugzilla would rock.

tekn0mage
12-03-2007, 08:44 PM
Thanks Slithe I do appreciate you validating many things that we've suspected for a long time now. It's not that we can use this information against you or hold it over your head, it's more for us to accurately reflect where we are at.

I think you'll find that I'm not coming down on you or anyone at Turbine, I'm merely saying let's have an honest discussion about things. No offense is meant, no blame is to be tossed around but let's just get down to brass tacks and move forward.

With that, I really wish you would do more to let people know posting things on your behalf is really hurting your image more than helping. This is the single most damaging factor to the community. Instead of waiting for honest communication we have all this quasi-communique from people pretending to be in the know. Instead of just letting the thread play out, you got this guy coming in here stinking up the thread with his snide remarks, condescending tone and general bad attitude against good discourse. Then marking everything as "whiny".

As you've noted in your most recent response, the original intent of my post was non-confrontational. Where the animosity starts to flare up is when you have some guy come up in here and start bashing the OP, bashing me, saying that because he's doesn't see a problem, things must not be bad. Then you come in, confirming that there ARE bugs from Beta, you'd think that would settle it. Nope, he sends me a PM saying how sweet satisfaction is that he proved me wrong and that he's right. I just don't get it...

To give total credit where it's due, I have *really* noticed an increase in old bugfixes. I mean every time you post a patch there's a new oldbug being fixed. This I appreciate very much.

wizzy_catt
12-04-2007, 01:15 AM
I'll be honest, after DDO launched we were more concerned about addressing the major criticism to the game - lack of content - than fixing a lot of non-critical bugs. New content and systems (mail, auctions, favor, etc...) were the agenda and had priority over fixing the less than major bugs
but really it feels like new updates are more fixing bugs than new content.

TechNoFear
12-04-2007, 01:46 AM
There used to be a user produced "known" issues list. I think the creator got fed up and left.

Or got one too many PMs about being naughty and stopped posting to that thread.

UtherSRG
12-04-2007, 06:18 AM
We've actually been spending more time recently though going back and attempting to fix a lot of the "classic" bugs of yesteryear, but it will still be a while before we've gotten to everyone's pet bug. Also keep in mind that something that may seem simple to fix is often quite tricky. The whole Stormcleave mess was fixed 18 times before we stopped getting reports of it. The infamous "Death From Above" issue has been fixed several times, each fix eliminating an aspect of the problem. There's another fix for it going in to Mod 6, but like Stormcleave, we hesitate to call it definitely fixed until we get no more reports of it happening.

I'd say you should put it (and other such tweaks) in the release notes, but worded as a "potential fix" along with a reminder to bug report any related issues. This will help keep it on everyone's radar (yours and ours), and also reduces the amount of confusion as to what we should do when we see our favorite bug reappear.

PhoenixFire31
12-04-2007, 06:42 AM
So, any chance that we will get access to the bug repository (or at least a sub-set of it)? I'd love to act as a volunteer QA agent (limited, I know).

Usti hun, I wanna say someone (MT, Cat, Ring, Vig, ect) had started a running tab of these before but either it was forgotten or (if written by someone like Vig) they do not have forum access anymore. I tried to search it but like 20 pages came up in the search :o.

Rekker
12-04-2007, 08:10 AM
I said that you should wait until after a major release to re-report a bug. This is because major releases have more bug fixes in them and are far more likely to have fixed the "less critical" bugs. If you notice, we always have at least one "patch" after a major release, sometimes two (I'm not counting the emergency hotfixes a day or two after a release - may we never see those again). These are planned "bug fixing" patches as we assume that you crafty players will have found ways to break things or more likely broken combinations of weapons, feats, spells, etc. that we missed.

The problem with that approach is the "new" bugs that appear in the update get all the attention on the boards and bug reports filed while the "old" bug that was supposedly fixed gets no attention because of the outcry for the "new" bug. So now the "old" bug gets put on the backburner again while you guys focus on the "new" one. Three months later the next mod comes out and the "old" one is still there. I would think that the curse issue is a big bug yet a fix won't be put in for 6 months :(


Hey Phoenix...I believe this is the post you were looking for...http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=108651

Yaga_Nub
12-04-2007, 08:44 AM
Hey Phoenix...I believe this is the post you were looking for...http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=108651

Wasn't there also a top 50 or 100 broken things list?

UPDATE: I looked through all the Development posts and didn't see it. I also checked the General Discussions and didn't see it. There were several "Unoffical" Bug threads though. Most of them aren't updated any more it seems.

BurnerD
12-04-2007, 09:49 AM
Can we get a list of known bugs (non-exploit at least) and their status? It would be nice if we could track them too. You could even have a status that says if you need more information, and then we could send you specific info if we come across it.

We don't expect the software to be bug-free. That isn't why we play. Bugs are a expected now-adays, and it would be nice to know what exist so that we can look out for them, and help to squish them.

This seems like a very good idea... It doesn't need to be weekly, but a list of bugs that are known and currently being worked on may help the player base fine tune their bug reporting. Better info in = Better product out.

Lyletuba
12-04-2007, 09:54 AM
Hey Phoenix...I believe this is the post you were looking for...http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=108651

Hey, that's my thread. Work has been very busy so I've been negligent in keeping it up.
But it is still alive! I swear!
Look for an update very soon.

Dirkan
12-04-2007, 10:28 AM
I'll be honest, after DDO launched we were more concerned about addressing the major criticism to the game - lack of content - than fixing a lot of non-critical bugs. New content and systems (mail, auctions, favor, etc...) were the agenda and had priority over fixing the less than major bugs.

~Silthe

It really is a question of prioroties and I think alot of players get annoyed when something is "fixed" to no one in the player community thought was broken. How do you have time to "fix" VON 6, so it really isn't a level approriate quest anymore but can't fix something like scorpion burrowing for 2 years or the UI bug for quest difficutly?

Work smarter...not harder.

Dane_McArdy
12-04-2007, 10:43 AM
Thank you, tecn0mage, for your calmly worded opinions. While no one enjoys hearing their work criticized, it's important to hear negative feedback if one is ever going to improve. Respectfully worded posts such as yours and the OP make it easy to really hear what you're saying.

I'm not sure I have much in the way of answers that will satisfy tecn0mage, Parvo, or other critics here, but I will say what I can.

I question the number of annoying bugs players have bene reporting "since Beta." I think it's likely just a dozen or so issues that people run into a lot that make it seem like there are many more. That being said, there are still more "active" bugs lingering from Module to Module than we're particularly comfortable with, whether players notice them a lot or not.

I'll be honest, after DDO launched we were more concerned about addressing the major criticism to the game - lack of content - than fixing a lot of non-critical bugs. New content and systems (mail, auctions, favor, etc...) were the agenda and had priority over fixing the less than major bugs.

We've actually been spending more time recently though going back and attempting to fix a lot of the "classic" bugs of yesteryear, but it will still be a while before we've gotten to everyone's pet bug. Also keep in mind that something that may seem simple to fix is often quite tricky. The whole Stormcleave mess was fixed 18 times before we stopped getting reports of it. The infamous "Death From Above" issue has been fixed several times, each fix eliminating an aspect of the problem. There's another fix for it going in to Mod 6, but like Stormcleave, we hesitate to call it definitely fixed until we get no more reports of it happening.

The best advice I have is to keep submitting a bug report once every major module. It'll keep it on our radar, and if lots of people report the same bug that way, it'll get moved towards the top. Reporting it ten times yourself doesn't accomplish that much. We're looking at older bugs more than we used to, so there's a good chance that your most annoying bug will get investigated.

I know, not the answer anyone was hoping for, but I hope it's better than nothing.


~Silthe

It is the answer I was hoping for.

Thanks for confirming that the long list of bugs since beta is probably no more then a dozen or so bugs that people run into alot. It confirms that people say that because they think it's true. Sure these bugs should be fixed. No one thinks that. Take for example the bug someone mentioned, the wrong difficulty showing up when you enter a quest after other people. That's a cosmetic bug, for sure, and would be niced if it was fixed.

Thanks for explaining that you make choices on when to fix bugs and not just try and stick to a schedule. While some may say you only fix bugs every 4-6 months, anyone can go and see it's more like 1-2 months there is some bug fix going into the game, and that major updates tend to have the most amount of bug fixes.

It's also nice to know that not all bug fixes get put in the WDA, for the simple fact you don't want to say it's fixed when it might not be, as in the Stormcleave example. So there are probably a lot more fixes going in then we know about.

But it doesn't mean anything in terms of effecting game play. I suspect that cosmetic bugs take just as much time as other bugs, and as such, fall closer to the bottom of the list.

I just wish people would have more facts when making statements, to back up those statements. If I'm going to claim a long list of bugs since beta, I would certainly have a decent sampling of what those bugs were, and how they effect the game, so that no one could challenge to present that.

It would also benefit people if they didn't assume it was easy to fix something. They are dealing with probably in the billions of code. When you have that much to deal with, the problem could be one of a 100 different things that is wrong. Sure it might be a simple mistake. That's not what takes so long. It's figureing out where in that 100 possible spots is the simple mistake.

Because the more you know, the more you share, the better people can do their job.

Yaga_Nub
12-04-2007, 11:02 AM
It is the answer I was hoping for.

Thanks for confirming that the long list of bugs since beta is probably no more then a dozen or so bugs that people run into alot. It confirms that people say that because they think it's true. Sure these bugs should be fixed. No one thinks that. Take for example the bug someone mentioned, the wrong difficulty showing up when you enter a quest after other people. That's a cosmetic bug, for sure, and would be niced if it was fixed.......

Don't discount the fact that he said those are bugs that people run into a lot. That doesn't mean there aren't more that have been around since beta. Personally, I must be lucky because I don't run into many bugs at all.

Also you have to acknowledge the fact that he said even the devs agree there are more "active" bugs than they are comfortable with. I agree with Usti regarding the a bug list. I hope that Slithe could convince someone to allow the posting of a bug list that the devs know about (not just working on). That would allow the players to be on the look out for those bugs and give information whenever we can regarding those bugs.

I think that goes really well with this statement-


Because the more you know, the more you share, the better people can do their job.

Or, in our case, help someone do their job.

Dane_McArdy
12-04-2007, 11:15 AM
Don't discount the fact that he said those are bugs that people run into a lot. That doesn't mean there aren't more that have been around since beta. Personally, I must be lucky because I don't run into many bugs at all.

I'm sure there are more then a dozen bugs left over from beta. I bet some of them are rare, and as such, might not be getting bugged. If a bug happens once every 1000 players, and happens to a player that isn't inclined to report bugs, Turbine may never know. It could be a bug that was in beta, and had been fixed several times.

It's great to know that some bugs have been worked on 18 times before they don't get a report anymore. If you figure it out, that means some bugs have been worked on every 1-2 months, since we have been around for just under 2 years. That means those bugs have been updated in game 1-2 months. So surely, they are doing more then 4-6 months between fixing bugs like some think they are.

If it was 4-6 months before something got fixed, that would mean we've had roughly 3-5 times they fixed bugs sine the start of the game. There isn't any way that is true, if they are telling us that some bugs get fixed up to 18 times before they stop getting reports about it.


Also you have to acknowledge the fact that he said even the devs agree there are more "active" bugs than they are comfortable with. I agree with Usti regarding the a bug list. I hope that Slithe could convince someone to allow the posting of a bug list that the devs know about (not just working on). That would allow the players to be on the look out for those bugs and give information whenever we can regarding those bugs.

I do agree with that. I can't imagine anyone actually being happy about a bug, even a cosmetic bug. These people love thier work. Look at Codog, people that don't like what they do, don't do what he does.

ccheath776
12-04-2007, 11:33 AM
For the love of pete, stop with the "I have pity for the devs". They get paid well for their work, they're people too but it's hard to have pity for people that design games for a living. They ain't missing no meals, and they sure aren't riding a bicycle to work.

(edited )
Nahh it aint worth getting upset over.

ccheath776
12-04-2007, 11:38 AM
Thanks Slithe I do appreciate you validating many things that we've suspected for a long time now. It's not that we can use this information against you or hold it over your head, it's more for us to accurately reflect where we are at.

I think you'll find that I'm not coming down on you or anyone at Turbine, I'm merely saying let's have an honest discussion about things. No offense is meant, no blame is to be tossed around but let's just get down to brass tacks and move forward.

With that, I really wish you would do more to let people know posting things on your behalf is really hurting your image more than helping. This is the single most damaging factor to the community. Instead of waiting for honest communication we have all this quasi-communique from people pretending to be in the know. Instead of just letting the thread play out, you got this guy coming in here stinking up the thread with his snide remarks, condescending tone and general bad attitude against good discourse. Then marking everything as "whiny".

As you've noted in your most recent response, the original intent of my post was non-confrontational. Where the animosity starts to flare up is when you have some guy come up in here and start bashing the OP, bashing me, saying that because he's doesn't see a problem, things must not be bad. Then you come in, confirming that there ARE bugs from Beta, you'd think that would settle it. Nope, he sends me a PM saying how sweet satisfaction is that he proved me wrong and that he's right. I just don't get it...

To give total credit where it's due, I have *really* noticed an increase in old bugfixes. I mean every time you post a patch there's a new oldbug being fixed. This I appreciate very much.

(edited ) nm

arminius
12-04-2007, 11:57 AM
It seems to me that they should include partial fixes in the release notes. Just because something doesn't resolve 100% doesn't mean it isn't worth noting for fear of confusing people.

They don't have to make a full promise that X is fixed for sure forever and ever amen.

Just as they have lines like, "improved pathing," instead of, "perfected pathing," they could say, "improved Stormcleave MOB spawning," instead of, "fixed Stormcleave MOB spawning."

If "improved" is too commital for them, then they could try, "Made changes to Stormcleave MOB spawning in a way that should result in improvements to the reliability of the spawns." Or they could make it as lawyerly as they like. Even the most caged, close-to-the-vest disclosures would be better than no disclosures, because no disclosures can be (and is) interpreted as ignoring an issue.

_

Dane_McArdy
12-04-2007, 12:00 PM
For the love of pete, stop with the "I have pity for the devs". They get paid well for their work, they're people too but it's hard to have pity for people that design games for a living. They ain't missing no meals, and they sure aren't riding a bicycle to work.

No, it just takes someone like Codog, who does so because he wants to, using his own time to answer questions in such detail that satisfies people. People were only happy with that level of communication when it got to the point where Codog used his own time, willingly to answer.

I can't help feel pity for people that love thier job so much and put so much effort into that

1. they took a lower paying job, and as Codog said, it cost him about $100,000.oo to work on DDO (so maybe he is riding his bike to work)

2. moving across the country,

3. spending months on end working 18+ hours a day to get the job done,

4. are up at 2-4 in morning posting to make you and everyone else happy.

All to get people to only complain when they are annoyed, and then to say how easy it should be to fix.

Nope, no pity for the person that has clearly gone above and beyond what is expected, gave up much personal time and money for something they love. That certainly seems more then the $15 anyone pays a month to play the game.

Yep, I can see how that pity is so misplaced.

I sure can't feel pity for say, Hsinclair who took a lot of abuse over the MUCH better enhancement system. Or the fact that someone from Mournlands posted a video on youtube telling her to stick it, because they were unhappy with a game.

There are many more examples of this kind of response to Turbine that shouldn't evoke a feeling of pity toward what they have to put up with, because it's perfectly ok to treat people like this, becaus they are well paid. In fact, you might as well say they are being paid to allow us to treat them like this.

tekn0mage
12-04-2007, 12:23 PM
There are still people who dislike the enhancement system. Me being one of them.

Furthermore, this idea of introducing Prestige classes through enhancements is just laughable. So as you see, they should prepare for controversy when doing controversial things. Hard to have pity for that when it does happen.

As far as Codog's commitment, I applaud that person for putting in so much effort. Seriously though, why is Codog the only dev we see that passionate about their work?

Turbine is fighting a lot of battles that they shouldn't have to fight simply because they forgot something. They forgot to have a public face. They do all their internal stuff, but they just about slip up every time there's a public relations issue.

The comment about riding a bike to work is an attempt to say that they are well paid for their efforts. This isn't about class-envy because their salaries aren't something to be envied. Let's not treat them like poor developers struggling out of college to make ends meet, ok? They are highly paid and highly trained professionals.

Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

Yaga_Nub
12-04-2007, 12:27 PM
Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

Not a friggin' chance of that happening (doing the job 10 times better) and, until recently, I dealt with programmers from many different countries so I speak from experience.

jjflanigan
12-04-2007, 12:28 PM
Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

That was completely uncalled for and insulting to any American programmer (me being one of them). Not sure why you had to even include that bit in your post unless you were just trying to be mean and rude.

Yes, more feedback would be nice, but, as I've said over and over again, until people can learn that communication and discussion is not a guarantee of something happening, you're not going to get it.

Dane_McArdy
12-04-2007, 12:39 PM
There are still people who dislike the enhancement system. Me being one of them.

I guess that puts you in the minority. Oh well.


Furthermore, this idea of introducing Prestige classes through enhancements is just laughable. So as you see, they should prepare for controversy when doing controversial things. Hard to have pity for that when it does happen.

I guess you are not fully informed. Kate said they are still exploring prestige classes in a recent interview.


As far as Codog's commitment, I applaud that person for putting in so much effort. Seriously though, why is Codog the only dev we see that passionate about their work?

I think they are all pasionate. You are assuming they aren't because they don't want to sit up at 3 in the morning, writing response to people who think thier job should go to India because it's cheaper and they will do a better job?


Turbine is fighting a lot of battles that they shouldn't have to fight simply because they forgot something. They forgot to have a public face. They do all their internal stuff, but they just about slip up every time there's a public relations issue.

That's your view, I'm sure there are lots of people that will see it as wrong. Turbine does have a public face. In fact, the recent weekend issues have shown they are always working to do better. Look how many people said, thanks for keeping us informed. It might not have been at this level in the past, but they have started.



The comment about riding a bike to work is an attempt to say that they are well paid for their efforts. This isn't about class-envy because their salaries aren't something to be envied. Let's not treat them like poor developers struggling out of college to make ends meet, ok? They are highly paid and highly trained professionals.

Who are clearly putting in more then they are getting paid for. No one is treating them like poor developers. But I can have pity for someone that puts more then is required for thier job, solely so you can sit on your but for pennies an hour, to play a video game, and all you can do is 95% of the time viciously complain about the slightest thing, and tell them how your wisdom is much better then theirs. And then get offended when people find issues with your posts. More so when you say things like:


Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

This is just disgusting to read. I've never heard anyone from Turbine complain about thier job. I take it to far? No, you go to far.

tekn0mage
12-04-2007, 12:58 PM
I guess that puts you in the minority. Oh well.



I guess you are not fully informed. Kate said they are still exploring prestige classes in a recent interview.



I think they are all pasionate. You are assuming they aren't because they don't want to sit up at 3 in the morning, writing response to people who think thier job should go to India because it's cheaper and they will do a better job?



That's your view, I'm sure there are lots of people that will see it as wrong. Turbine does have a public face. In fact, the recent weekend issues have shown they are always working to do better. Look how many people said, thanks for keeping us informed. It might not have been at this level in the past, but they have started.




Who are clearly putting in more then they are getting paid for. No one is treating them like poor developers. But I can have pity for someone that puts more then is required for thier job, solely so you can sit on your but for pennies an hour, to play a video game, and all you can do is 95% of the time viciously complain about the slightest thing, and tell them how your wisdom is much better then theirs. And then get offended when people find issues with your posts. More so when you say things like:



This is just disgusting to read. I've never heard anyone from Turbine complain about thier job. I take it to far? No, you go to far.

Here we go again. A whole new slew of thread fodder.

All the times you tell us NOT to read into what the Dev's say, you are violating your own cardinal rule about Kate and prestige classes.

At NO time, did they EVER say/promise or even attempt to commit to instituting prestige classes. So I'm sorry, you are the one misinformed and breaking the exact rule you bash others over the head with constantly.

What we DO KNOW NOW, is that they HAVE instituted Bard prestige classes as an ENHANCEMENT LINE. So, you have conjecture, I have facts, which wins at the end of the day?

Secondly, Codog is a model developer in my opinion. Active in the community, open to reason, and doesn't let small things bother him. We need more like him. That's all I'm saying.

I work in the Open Source community where all developers are active DAILY in bugtracks, mailing lists and personal emails with end-users. They don't get paid for it, they do it for free. How is it that we have paid professionals that can't come on the forums and post once per month what they are working on and how the game is going?

As far as all of them being passionate... what about Sporkfire, was he passionate taking another position in another company? What about Hsinclair? You haven't talked to her, you don't know the reason why she left. You SAY it's because of the community that she left, I think it was her employer that put unrealistic demands and she decided to say screw this. No amount of faceless, nameless criticism can outdo an employer asking for too much too soon.

So again Dane, we can go round and round, but I suggest you put me back on ignore because you don't ever win, you just look more flustered each time.

tekn0mage
12-04-2007, 01:22 PM
To Dane:

And I quote from the TenTonHammer interview... your favorite person, Kate stating this:

"We’ve also continued our enhancement series, and this time around the Ranger got their day in the sun with the Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, and Tempest enhancements. Those allow more customization for the characters and address certain needs that the players have asked for in the past."

Once again, Prestige Classes as Enhancements.

isldur
12-04-2007, 02:40 PM
Read posts, and only one thing outraged me and also showed a bit of ignorance.


Originally Posted by tekn0mage View Post
Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.

You are simply uninformed. The most productive workers in the entire world are from..............America .

Look it up. Jump out of your fantasy land and read some real news once in a while.

Pretty sure it goes like this......American coders make game, (using your examples) india korean and phillipine coders hack game to sell plat.

Quite sure our gm's don't speak fluent english, how is their preformance been for you?

Never really had much trouble with your post before, but.........that was just borked.

Gror_Stoneshard
12-04-2007, 03:02 PM
Give a programmer from India, Korea or the Phillipines 1/4th their salary and watch them do a job 10 times better. American coders who complain about how tough the job is deserve no sympathy. Sure, we'll hear them out when the going gets tough and pat them on the back for a job well done, but you take it too far Dane.
This is childish, misinformed and just plain dumb. Get off your high horse man, it's just a game for us, and plenty of damn work for them. Get some perspective on how much you spout should really be an issue. Jackass.

isldur
12-04-2007, 03:07 PM
This is childish, misinformed and just plain dumb. Get off your high horse man, it's just a game for us, and plenty of damn work for them. Get some perspective on how much you spout should really be an issue. Jackass.

Nicely put.

moorewr
12-04-2007, 03:47 PM
You are simply uninformed. The most productive workers in the entire world are from..............America .

Look it up. Jump out of your fantasy land and read some real news once in a while..

Technically, French workers (yes, French workers) are the most productive per hour, but we work longer hours, so we produce more en toto.

isldur
12-04-2007, 03:55 PM
Technically, French workers (yes, French workers) are the most productive per hour, but we work longer hours, so we produce more en toto.

Actually its not the french, its norway.

"Last year, U.S. workers each produced $63,885 in value-added labor, compared to $55,986 by workers in Ireland, the next closest economy, according to the United Nation's International Labor Office.

Yet, measured as value added per hour worked, American workers dropped behind those in Norway where workers produced $37.99 per hour, compared to $35.63 in the United States and $35.08 in France. That's because U.S. employees tend to work much longer hours than workers in other developed economies, the Geneva-based agency reported." Quoted from Inc.com :)

Cutedge
12-04-2007, 04:27 PM
How is it that we have paid professionals that can't come on the forums and post once per month what they are working on and how the game is going?

Perhaps because game programmers who work hard on their product don't want to come to the forums to be criticized, told they should be fired, told that they are worthless as an employee and a human being, and so forth. I simply can't understand why people have to treat the makers of a game they play like this.

moorewr
12-04-2007, 04:36 PM
Actually its not the french, its norway.

"Last year, U.S. workers each produced $63,885 in value-added labor, compared to $55,986 by workers in Ireland, the next closest economy, according to the United Nation's International Labor Office.

Yet, measured as value added per hour worked, American workers dropped behind those in Norway where workers produced $37.99 per hour, compared to $35.63 in the United States and $35.08 in France. That's because U.S. employees tend to work much longer hours than workers in other developed economies, the Geneva-based agency reported." Quoted from Inc.com :)

"takk skal du ha for rettelsen"

:)

parvo
12-05-2007, 12:09 AM
Thank you, tecn0mage, for your calmly worded opinions. While no one enjoys hearing their work criticized, it's important to hear negative feedback if one is ever going to improve. Respectfully worded posts such as yours and the OP make it easy to really hear what you're saying.

I'm not sure I have much in the way of answers that will satisfy tecn0mage, Parvo, or other critics here, but I will say what I can.

I question the number of annoying bugs players have bene reporting "since Beta." I think it's likely just a dozen or so issues that people run into a lot that make it seem like there are many more. That being said, there are still more "active" bugs lingering from Module to Module than we're particularly comfortable with, whether players notice them a lot or not.

I'll be honest, after DDO launched we were more concerned about addressing the major criticism to the game - lack of content - than fixing a lot of non-critical bugs. New content and systems (mail, auctions, favor, etc...) were the agenda and had priority over fixing the less than major bugs.

We've actually been spending more time recently though going back and attempting to fix a lot of the "classic" bugs of yesteryear, but it will still be a while before we've gotten to everyone's pet bug. Also keep in mind that something that may seem simple to fix is often quite tricky. The whole Stormcleave mess was fixed 18 times before we stopped getting reports of it. The infamous "Death From Above" issue has been fixed several times, each fix eliminating an aspect of the problem. There's another fix for it going in to Mod 6, but like Stormcleave, we hesitate to call it definitely fixed until we get no more reports of it happening.

The best advice I have is to keep submitting a bug report once every major module. It'll keep it on our radar, and if lots of people report the same bug that way, it'll get moved towards the top. Reporting it ten times yourself doesn't accomplish that much. We're looking at older bugs more than we used to, so there's a good chance that your most annoying bug will get investigated.

I know, not the answer anyone was hoping for, but I hope it's better than nothing.


~Silthe

You gave me some direction and while I'm not satisfied with the amount of bugs in the game, I'm damn near thrilled to know how I can best affect the situation. Again, I appreciate that guidance.

To others, I'd ask you don't blow up this thread. Others deserve to see Slithe's valuable feedback without you guys getting the thread locked or deleted.

Vizzini
12-05-2007, 12:57 PM
It would be really nice to see the ladder bug fixed.. It's been there since beta, and while I've become accustomed to jumping up the ladder, it would really be nice to just climb it with out glitching up and down 20 times :x

Lorien_the_First_One
12-05-2007, 03:27 PM
Perhaps because game programmers who work hard on their product don't want to come to the forums to be criticized, told they should be fired, told that they are worthless as an employee and a human being, and so forth. I simply can't understand why people have to treat the makers of a game they play like this.

That is so true... I saw another thread recently where one of the programmers clearly was upset at what he felt was some attacks going into the hurtfull range.

I think there needs to be much much much more posting here by Turbine employees. Most of my expectation in that area though centres around people like Q or programmers who show up for player feedback on particular issues. (Eldarin & CDog being good recent examples of this). Where actually programmers can, great, but the absense of programmers posting is not a sign of lack of dedication. It may mean they are WORKING (unlike some of us in the forum right now :p).



You are simply uninformed. The most productive workers in the entire world are from..............America .

That's not universally true. And I saw your quote in another thread supporting them not being #1 but being near the top... averages mean pretty much nothing when you merge dissimilar industry groups. Also the measure of $ added per hour is not always the best measure... If you produce a widget that sells for $50 in the US then the value added is $50. If you produce the same widget in china and sell it for $1 then the value added is $1. Both widgets may be identical and have equal functional value. Its an accounting entry and not a real measure of anything.


Pretty sure it goes like this......American coders make game, (using your examples) india korean and phillipine coders hack game to sell plat.

Wow, Techno was off to one side...you are equally insulting and even bording racism on the other.


There are some quality programmers in places like India and China who do good work, although language can definately be a problem but for 1/4 (or less) the price you end up getting higher production on the same budget. (Assume the average Indian programmer puts out 50% of the material given delays/rewrites due to language issues and you can still put out twice the material on the same budget)

There are also countries like Israel that have a knowlegable programming workforce for sale at lower rates that have less of a languge barrier.

tekn0mage
12-05-2007, 04:05 PM
That is so true... I saw another thread recently where one of the programmers clearly was upset at what he felt was some attacks going into the hurtfull range.

I think there needs to be much much much more posting here by Turbine employees. Most of my expectation in that area though centres around people like Q or programmers who show up for player feedback on particular issues. (Eldarin & CDog being good recent examples of this). Where actually programmers can, great, but the absense of programmers posting is not a sign of lack of dedication. It may mean they are WORKING (unlike some of us in the forum right now :p).




That's not universally true. And I saw your quote in another thread supporting them not being #1 but being near the top... averages mean pretty much nothing when you merge dissimilar industry groups. Also the measure of $ added per hour is not always the best measure... If you produce a widget that sells for $50 in the US then the value added is $50. If you produce the same widget in china and sell it for $1 then the value added is $1. Both widgets may be identical and have equal functional value. Its an accounting entry and not a real measure of anything.



Wow, Techno was off to one side...you are equally insulting and even bording racism on the other.


There are some quality programmers in places like India and China who do good work, although language can definately be a problem but for 1/4 (or less) the price you end up getting higher production on the same budget. (Assume the average Indian programmer puts out 50% of the material given delays/rewrites due to language issues and you can still put out twice the material on the same budget)

There are also countries like Israel that have a knowlegable programming workforce for sale at lower rates that have less of a languge barrier.

Lorien, I take back everything bad I ever said about ya ;)

While my post certainly did rile some people up, it's good to see you keeping a consistent balance. Cheers.