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View Full Version : A Thought about respec of SKILLS.........



ThrasherGT
11-28-2007, 01:20 PM
OK, first to recap:
1. LOTS of peeps want a skill respec, Most understand this would be a one time thing, and there are tons of reasons that this should happen
2. (the bad news) there is no way (according to Turbine) to account for every point (they didn't keep track) so They say there's no fair way to redistribute the points.

Now, I'd like to take a look at this second point and really break it down to it's components, and when I'm finished I hope I can change a few minds about this. The problem lies with the value of some skill points when they're taken (one rank in a cross-skill results in only .5 of a skill point, and when there's multi-classing involved, some points would be full points and some would be half points), HOWEVER, If you look at the TOTAL NUMBER of skill point earned, It already factors in the fact that some of the points were acquired through cross-skills. So what I'm saying here is that when We do a skill respec, We don't start with the Max number of skill points, Instead we start with the total number of skill points we've earned through our initial distribution of said points.
I.E. If You took 10 ranks in a cross-skill, You get 5 total skill points.
Now I know from some of My early toons, That this total is Waaaaaaaaaaaay below max (My example is My cleric, who I blew a ton of cross-skill points on umd for, only to realize I was wasting My time (and points):p) Regardless of where these points were initially put, moving them in a repec in this fashion would NOT (IMHO) unbalance the game. Instead, It would allow those of us who really screwed up some early characters to finally "fix" what we did wrong.

In closing, I'd like to reiterate that This is a GREAT idea, and really needs to get done!

Peace and Chicken Grease:D

Impaqt
11-28-2007, 01:32 PM
OK, first to recap:
1. LOTS of peeps want a skill respec, Most understand this would be a one time thing, and there are tons of reasons that this should happen
2. (the bad news) there is no way (according to Turbine) to account for every point (they didn't keep track) so They say there's no fair way to redistribute the points.

Now, I'd like to take a look at this second point and really break it down to it's components, and when I'm finished I hope I can change a few minds about this. The problem lies with the value of some skill points when they're taken (one rank in a cross-skill results in only .5 of a skill point, and when there's multi-classing involved, some points would be full points and some would be half points), HOWEVER, If you look at the TOTAL NUMBER of skill point earned, It already factors in the fact that some of the points were acquired through cross-skills. So what I'm saying here is that when We do a skill respec, We don't start with the Max number of skill points, Instead we start with the total number of skill points we've earned through our initial distribution of said points.
[B] I.E. If You took 10 ranks in a cross-skill, You get 5 total skill points.[B]
Now I know from some of My early toons, That this total is Waaaaaaaaaaaay below max (My example is My cleric, who I blew a ton of cross-skill points on umd for, only to realize I was wasting My time (and points):p) Regardless of where these points were initially put, moving them in a repec in this fashion would NOT (IMHO) unbalance the game. Instead, It would allow those of us who really screwed up some early characters to finally "fix" what we did wrong.

In closing, I'd like to reiterate that This is a GREAT idea, and really needs to get done!

Peace and Chicken Grease:D

Still Faulty.

You failed to realize that of those 10 Points in that Cross class skill, SOME of them most likely were spend when the skill was NOT cross class. Plus the fact that 10 Ranks in a Cross Class Skill would mean you spent as many as 20 Skill Points to get there.... And your ofer is 5 to spend elsewhere? Uh.. No thanks.

By Using this system you would effectivly be taking away skill points from anyone who wishes to respec.

llevenbaxx
11-28-2007, 01:36 PM
Do they even have a way to track what levels of what class you took when though? This would be very important with regards took your 1st level in. Its pretty simple from there on out but I dont think they would be willing to just believe you took your first level in rogue. It would seem pretty simple to figure out if they had a list of what levels you took when, I dont think they have that info though. They could prolly do it if there was no such thing as multiclassing. Something to think about.

Also, if you have 10 ranks in a CC skill that would be 20 skill points.;)

Laith
11-28-2007, 01:47 PM
Do they even have a way to track what levels of what class you took when though?yes they do. it's shown during feat respecs, so at least they track your level makeup for feat requirements (BAB, class level, etc).

if they add to that when you took particular tomes, and added your ability points (lvl 4,8,12,etc) then they could feasibly just walk you through lvl by lvl, retaking those skill points.

of course, the problem is likely in the storing of base ability point values, ability point boosts, or tome information.

Kerr
11-28-2007, 02:54 PM
The obvious choice is to FORCE a skill respec on everyone, when we select new skills they track how they're assigned, etc.

They should be able to tell how many skill points a character gets based upon level, race, and INT bonus. They must be able to tell what level what class was taken since that directly affects Feat selection with Fred.

Then just institute a skill respec 'level up' like Enhancements where you spent the points you'd receive at that level with appropriate cross or class skill rules and it's done.

I don't believe it's nearly as complicated as they make it out to be.

DasLurch
11-28-2007, 05:45 PM
You also can't forget to account for he people that used int tomes at some point AFTER creation. I think this is a bigger issue than some of thee others you've already mentioned

Kerr
11-28-2007, 05:50 PM
You also can't forget to account for he people that used int tomes at some point AFTER creation. I think this is a bigger issue than some of thee others you've already mentioned

I say let it count for them. There's nothing wrong with that as far as I see.

sirgog
11-28-2007, 10:27 PM
I'm a big fan of skill respeccing, as a have a WF Fighter that put points in Swim (first toon, and hey, it seemed quite useful).


Having it go by pen and paper rules for permanent stat increases IMO isn't a good idea, as Turbine needs to know at what level you used tomes. The best solution I think is to deviate from P&P rules, and allow players to respec based on their current Intelligence score (counting only inherent bonuses, not enhancement etc).

So a Wizard14 that starts with 18 Int, puts their level 4, 8 and 12 points into Int and gets a +3 Int tome and eats it at level 13 would currently have:

24 skill points at level 1
+6 at each of levels 2-7
+7 at each of levels 8-13
and +9 at level 14
for a total of 111 skill points.

Under my system they'd get a bonus - they'd get skill points as though their Int score was always 24, for a total of 153. Big bonus, but IMO quite fair as it would benefit everyone who'd eaten tomes roughly equally, and would remove the current ridiculous way in which toons are permanently 'gimped' (albeit in a very small way) by eating a +2 tome at level 10 and not level 1.

SteeleTrueheart
11-29-2007, 12:23 AM
I think the problem is that Turbine probably didn't track level up stat points. In any respec system Int based classes (Wizards and maybe Rogues) will benefit the most if tomes and level stat increases are assigned equal weight in a respec system. (Realistically how many non wiz or rog toons have eaten a +2 or greater Int tome?)

There is just no way to do this fairly if Turbine has not tracked the number of skill points spent on each character. if they can not do it fairly, then they should not do it at all. (The forums would be troll hell for months if an unfair system was put in place)

sirgog
11-29-2007, 11:30 AM
I think the problem is that Turbine probably didn't track level up stat points. In any respec system Int based classes (Wizards and maybe Rogues) will benefit the most if tomes and level stat increases are assigned equal weight in a respec system. (Realistically how many non wiz or rog toons have eaten a +2 or greater Int tome?)

There is just no way to do this fairly if Turbine has not tracked the number of skill points spent on each character. if they can not do it fairly, then they should not do it at all. (The forums would be troll hell for months if an unfair system was put in place)

Agreed it will help some classes more than others, but honestly I think those 2 classes need a little help anyway. Wizards' versatility doesn't match up to a Sorc's firepower, and almost any trap you care about can be disarmed by a character with only a rogue splash.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-29-2007, 12:03 PM
yes they do. it's shown during feat respecs, so at least they track your level makeup for feat requirements
(BAB, class level, etc).

While that might be true, it could also be they only record what you were when you took the feat. ie when saving the feat record the record could look like:

Toughness Fighter-Bonusfeat L4 char L2 fighter

Edit: Since we are all just guessing....wouldn't it be REALLY nice if someone from the Dev team just told us either (1) yes we have that info but its hard to get at and therefore difficult to impliment, (2) no we just don't track the info we would need for a skill respec, (3) yes we have the info and it would be easy to get at but its just not on our priority list ATM, (4) yes we have the info and it would be easy to get at, and its in the dev cycle. You will eventually see it, even if not soon.

Mercules
11-29-2007, 01:00 PM
In closing, I'd like to reiterate that This is a GREAT idea, and really needs to get done!


Actually... it's not a very good idea at all.

For example, yes the person who invested in CC skills is getting back as many ranks as he had before, but now you have to "unlock" CC skill so they can accept that rank on a 1 for 1 basis. This benefits the people who only took class skills. They will have additional Ranks that can now be spent on a CC skill on a 1 for 1 basis. Unless you make people who took CC skills take a different CC skill and not take Class Skill ranks in CC skills, which removes the reason to respec.

Fighter 1 had:
Intimidate 17 ranks
UMD 8 ranks

Fighter 2 had:
Intimidate 17 ranks
Swim 16 ranks

Guess who is going to end up with more CC skills at the end of the respec under your system? :)

MysticTheurge
11-29-2007, 01:08 PM
While that might be true, it could also be they only record what you were when you took the feat. ie when saving the feat record the record could look like:

Toughness Fighter-Bonusfeat L4 char L2 fighter

As I said before, it'd be silly to have this system because the system knows:

What you were at the level you took each of your main feats (1,3,6,9,12,15)
What you were when you got your fighter bonus feats (Fighter 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16)
What you were when you got your wizard bonus feats (Wizard 1,5,10,15)
What you were when you got your favored enemies (Ranger 1,5,10,15)
What you were when you got your rogue special abilities (Rogue 10,13,16)

The system doesn't just know that you where a 4th level character and a 2nd level fighter when you got your Fighter 2 feat, it knows whether you were a Fighter 2/Rogue 2, or a Fighter 2/Wizard 2 and so on.

Given that the bonus feats the system tracks can fall at any level (1 through 16), you'd have to work really hard to come up with a solution that tracks the stuff we know it tracks and still not know what someone was at each and every level.

Edit -- Also, it should be incredibly easy to put the 'Stat Increase Tracking' issue to rest. Someone (who levels up faster than I do) should make a fighter with 12 strength, level up to 4th, increase strength, never take power attack and then see if they can respec their level 1 feat for power attack and if they can respec their Level 4 feat for power attack.

If you can swap PA into the 4th level slot but not any of the lower level slots, then they're clearly tracking ability increases.

Laith
11-29-2007, 02:09 PM
As I said before, it'd be silly to have this system
agreed, but that doesn't make it impossible. :)

they obviously stored this feat information long before they implemented the feat respec (and probably even before they conceived it) & raid completions counters before they needed those (unless you count "statistical uses"). odds are, they didn't just stop there.

MysticTheurge
11-29-2007, 02:23 PM
they obviously stored this feat information long before they implemented the feat respec (and probably even before they conceived it)

Yeah, but if anything that just makes my scenario more likely. If you were sitting around trying to decide what to track (before you decided to implement feat respec) would you say:

A) Let's just track what classes people are at the levels where they get feats.

or

B) Let's track what class characters take at each level.

Laith
11-29-2007, 02:28 PM
Yeah, but if anything that just makes my scenario more likely. If you were sitting around trying to decide what to track (before you decided to implement feat respec) would you say:

ok, often i admit humor not being conveyed due to lack of emote, but are you trying to say i used the wrong one this time??
bah, emote law continutes to confound me! :confused:


agreed, but that doesn't make it impossible. :)
look! smiley!!! :D

Hence
11-29-2007, 02:38 PM
To make it simple, let everyone have a one time toon rebuild.
Go through a quest that blanks our minds and clears our character sheet.

We keep Tomes we used, but loose our 4,8,12 stat points.

What we need to do, is be able to access the character creation screen again. Let us rebuild our toons entirely.

A one time Feat/Stat/Skill/Class rebuild. Give it as a favor reward (3000?). And give original 28pt characters 32pt builds.

If you have played the game enough to accrue 3000 favor, you are the master of the game and should be allowed to do whatever you want ONCE.
When a player reaches 3000 favor, they know exactly where they screwed up. They know what they would have done differently.

Erase everything but our Experience points, and let us completely rebuild from level 0 / creation.

Of course we keep our items too. Once we leave the character creation screen, we can go to any trainer and re-level up.
It doesn't matter if a Warrior wants to be a Cleric, or a Wizard wants to be a Sorcerer. After so much game time, we should be rewarded with something good.

What do yall think about that???

MysticTheurge
11-29-2007, 02:40 PM
look! smiley!!! :D

Right, I'm mostly agreeing with you (Highly improbably, but not impossible), just making some additional points. ;)

MysticTheurge
11-29-2007, 02:42 PM
We keep Tomes we used

Honestly, it seems to me that that's the most likely culprit right there.

Consider this:

Not only do they need to know when you took your +3 intelligence tome, but also, potentially, when you took your +2 and +1 intelligence tomes.

Even if they tracked when you took your highest tome (i.e. the only one that applies to you at present), it seems highly unlikely that they've tracked when you took each and every tome you've ever taken.

Mercules
11-29-2007, 02:53 PM
It doesn't matter if a Warrior wants to be a Cleric, or a Wizard wants to be a Sorcerer. After so much game time, we should be rewarded with something good.

What do yall think about that???

I think it sucks.

1. You learn how to play your character starting at level 1. I run into a lot of capped people's new characters that do the dumbest things because they -think- they know how to play but have never played that type of character. Imagine swapping from a Barbarian to a Bard in one fell swoop with no graceful learning curve.

2. It removes a lot of re-play ability from the game. Why make a new character when you can just recycle your old one complete with Raid Loot and Tomes!?!

3. Talk about overpowering the lower levels. You have enough Favor to get the spell buffs and buy returning arrows and get discounts everywhere... as if twinking down money and items wasn't already ruining the early levels of the game.

:(

Hence
11-29-2007, 02:57 PM
Honestly, it seems to me that that's the most likely culprit right there.

Consider this:

Not only do they need to know when you took your +3 intelligence tome, but also, potentially, when you took your +2 and +1 intelligence tomes.

Even if they tracked when you took your highest tome (i.e. the only one that applies to you at present), it seems highly unlikely that they've tracked when you took each and every tome you've ever taken.

But... the few extra points this would give you is next to meaningless since skills have a hard cap anyway.
If it was a favor reward that let us respec... those characters deserve the extra 16 skill points they would get. There are only +3 tomes, and people who start with an odd int stat usually dump a +1 tome before they level to 2. So a +3 tome would only give you a +1 modifier. An extra 16 points is negligible.

No reason to track tomes. Give us the measly extra points, we deserve them for playing with gimped characters for so long.

Mercules
11-29-2007, 03:00 PM
No reason to track tomes. Give us the measly extra points, we deserve them for playing with gimped characters for so long.

We deserve it for purposefully gimping our characters by min/maxing in the false belief that things would never change and certain skills had no use and never would? :D