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View Full Version : Give Sunder a way to be useful



Serpent
11-18-2007, 09:47 AM
There's a minor problem in DDO in that the Sunder ability is nearly useless, which has the side effects of making Shatter weapons and the Improved Sunder feat unworthy of their cost. The effect doesn't come close to the power of Sunder in PnP, where it can be used against objects besides shields, and where it doesn't need to hit the enemy's actual AC. DDO's sunder effect is self-contradictory: to reduce the monster's AC, your sunder attempt must hit the AC. So it's only likely to work when you don't need it.

The Improved Sunder feat is especially bad when you hold it up against competition like Stunning Blow. They're both Fort saves, but Stunning Blow is a death sentence while Sunder is a minor debuff.

Steps to fix Sunder
1. Give the feat two sub-icons as options. They share a cooldown, so the player must choose which to use.

2. The Sunder Armor icon applies a penalty of -4 AC and -2 DR (to a minimum of 0). The penalty lasts for 20 sec. If you have Improved Sunder, the penalty increases to -4/-3, and you have a +4 bonus on the Sunder attack roll.

3. The Sunder Weapon icon applies a penalty of -1 attack and -2 damage (to a minimum of 1). If you have Improved Sunder, the penalty increases to -2/-3.

4. Improved Sunder gives you x2 duration and +4 DC to attempts.

5. (optional) Change Sunder from a fort save to an opposed attack roll (base BAB, disregarding stances like Power Attack or Precision). Naturally, the Shatter effect and Sunder enhancements apply to that roll. An Adamantine weapon/shield/armor gives the defender a +4 bonus on this roll.

6. (optional) Creatures not using a weapon are immune to the penalty from Sunder Weapon. This can be determined by the 3d model of a monster, or the item slots of a player.

7. Creatures with armor or shield of adamantine have a +5 on rolls to resist Sunder Armor. Creatures with a weapon of adamantine have a +5 on rolls to resist Sunder Weapon.

Side Note: This effect would be great for pvp characters and also in my opinion not be a blanket immunity fro bosses since it would not secure insta-death but would instead be another good debuff.

A guildy worked very hard on this so even if you don't like it realize it was given a lot of thought by someone who enjoys this game

Shade
11-18-2007, 11:57 AM
I like sunder, Nice ideas.

Improve sunder is meant to be a bit stronger then stunning blow really, since it has a prerequisit some people who might want it, might not want to take - power attack.

Garth_of_Sarlona
11-18-2007, 01:40 PM
One good thing about Sunder is that it works on all mobs, including red and purple raid bosses.

Garth

Solmage
11-18-2007, 02:23 PM
Honestly, improved sundering should give a heavy penalty to hit & damage if done on a weapon, or completely remove armor AC if done on the armor.

It may SOUND very powerful, but considering how 'dead' tactical fighting is in DDO anyway, a -4 penalty is just laughable at the cost of a feat and a fort save. How many people even bother using the FREE, GUARANTEED -4 penalty from destruction all the time, or cursespewers, or or or. The answer is 'a vast minority'. (I can't even give away the named destruction scimitar, never mind sell it..)

Now, when you consider you have about the same chance of stunning the critter than you do of sundering, it's a no-brainer which feat you should choose, both at levelup and during the adventure. For that matter, trip is also superior in almost all cases.

Yes, I know you can sunder a boss. Yay you. If you think the feat is worth 1 or 2 boss fights which go down just as well without the feat, I'm afraid you'll have a tough sell to make. It's not like we're back in the day when only an uber melee could hit Tempest Spine Elite blackguards, or elite spiders nobody could hit. (This change had its pro's and cons of course, one of the latter being making the TSE raid totally wimpy)

Serpent
11-18-2007, 05:34 PM
Well instead of minus -4 AC and -3 DR on improved sunder we changed it to -8 AC and -5 DR to make up for the amount of feats you have to take

Garth_of_Sarlona
11-18-2007, 06:43 PM
Another idea I just thought of would be to make shatter weapons like weighted weapons, e.g. the ones that are +2 to the sunder ability give a 1% chance of sundering an enemy on successful hit (and so on) Then at least the weapons would be more useful.

Garth

Talish
11-18-2007, 09:57 PM
I just want to state that sunder is not useless. If you are a fighter, yes you are probably already hitting the monster BUT this is a team game. I use sunder all the time for 2 reasons.

1. If I see I am missing too much I use it to raise my chances of a hit.

2. and the main reason I use it.. others in my group (non fighters) may not be hitting as often as I am, especially end bosses, a well placed sunder allows other team members to hit more frequently and cause more damage. Eg// pally's etc do not have the same hit bonuses as fighters lowering ac by 4 is often a big plus for others in the group especially against named monsters and helps them go down faster.

I do however believe that improved sunder should not be so difficult to obtain especially when compared to stunning blow.

Samadhi
11-18-2007, 10:20 PM
I am a former Sunder user (from a while back; I admit). Quite frankly, I heavily agree, maybe not with the OP's ways of improving, but that maybe it should be looked at again. Without being spec'd for ultimate sunders, mobs save far too often for it to be worth it. Spec'ing for it is not worth it - there are too many better ways to spec.

Why not give it the same fix we gave hamstring - no save? This would make it identical to destruction, realistically. More useful, but still far from over-powering. Even after the fix for hamstring, I ended up swapping it back out again because I felt there were more useful ways to use a feat - no matter how much I enjoyed making my enemies slow. Same fix applied to tendonslice weapons could be applied to shatter.

My two cents - for whatever its worth.

Edit: I do like the idea of it lowering DR though.

xberto
11-19-2007, 01:34 AM
I Sunder everytime the cooldown expires. I see the animation often and seems to work on about everything. It's one of those abilities that is probably helpful, you just don't really notice it in the rush of the adventure. I'm sure someone could put together a scenario with multiple melee toons, wacking on a high AC boss, then crunch the numbers and determine how many more hits, over time, blah blah blah....to determine if it is worthwhile. In the meantime, I'm just going to accept that it's a thankless skill ,but have faith it's helping out the party.

Laith
11-19-2007, 10:02 AM
it's helping out the party.
think of it as a pocket destruction weapon. ever found a destruction weapon helpful?

i know i have.

Aesop
11-19-2007, 10:16 AM
I always thought that they should implement Disarm and have that reduce attack and damage say reduce attack by 3 and damage by 10% for 15 sec and have Improved Disarm increase it to -5 to Hit and -15% Damage with a +4 to the DC and increase the duration to 20sec. Obviously Mobs without weapons would be immune.

But they are pretty good ideas there ya have there.

I'd also like to add in


Fighter Feats should expand the abilities out a little I think also. Example Fighter Sunder might increase the DC and every 2 enhancments increases the effect by 1... ie Normal Sunder reduces AC by 4 with Fighter Sunder 2 it would reduce the AC by 5 instead.

Deflect Arrow: 30% miss chance for Ranged Attacks (not spells). Monk Enhancements add 10% per level

Aesop

oronisi
11-19-2007, 03:11 PM
There's a minor problem in DDO in that the Sunder ability is nearly useless, which has the side effects of making Shatter weapons and the Improved Sunder feat unworthy of their cost. The effect doesn't come close to the power of Sunder in PnP, where it can be used against objects besides shields, and where it doesn't need to hit the enemy's actual AC. DDO's sunder effect is self-contradictory: to reduce the monster's AC, your sunder attempt must hit the AC. So it's only likely to work when you don't need it.



I think you hit the nail on the head...then strayed from your own ideas. Sunder does have a problem, as stated by you and underlined above. In order to correct that problem, the sunder move itself should address that issue. Make it a collision based attack (like a touch attack / ray spell) and then roll a fort save, or give the attack a large bonus to hit (+4 or +8). This way, you actually have a chance of landing a sunder, then enjoying the benefits of the move you just performed.

Instead, you are asking someone to try and sunder, and they are either already missing, and will most likely miss the sunder too, or they hit all the time and would be doing the sunder move to benefit the wizard in the back that wants to get a few hits in too.

Mercules
11-19-2007, 03:28 PM
Instead, you are asking someone to try and sunder, and they are either already missing, and will most likely miss the sunder too, or they hit all the time and would be doing the sunder move to benefit the wizard in the back that wants to get a few hits in too.

Or the person with the Paralyzing repeater who doesn't get the +10 bonus to the 4th swing that you do but would help you not take damage if you made it easier for them to hit. ;)

Laith
11-19-2007, 03:42 PM
Or the person with the Paralyzing repeater who doesn't get the +10 bonus to the 4th swing that you do but would help you not take damage if you made it easier for them to hit. ;)wait, you're saying that melees are supposed to things that help the team?

thought that was reserved for the heal & hastebo-- err clerics & wizards. :rolleyes:

Mercules
11-19-2007, 04:10 PM
wait, you're saying that melees are supposed to things that help the team?

thought that was reserved for the heal & hastebo-- err clerics & wizards. :rolleyes:

I know... the thought that ALL characters are actually "Support" characters for the group that help each other is revolutionary in some circles. :eek:

llevenbaxx
11-20-2007, 07:57 AM
I play many off-tank role characters and can say I (still)love tactics fighters. Many of my characters have partial BAB and sunder can be a big help in getting the late progression attacks to land. While none of my characters have the imp sunder feat, I always keep the plain ol sunder hotkeyed and use it on the 3rd of 4th attack pretty constantly.

Would like to see it get a face lift like many of the other combat tactics. While I think the -4 ac it bestows is all it really takes to make the difference to-hit wise, a DR type reduction would be really nice bump.

oronisi
11-20-2007, 08:04 AM
Or the person with the Paralyzing repeater who doesn't get the +10 bonus to the 4th swing that you do but would help you not take damage if you made it easier for them to hit. ;)

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think that would be awesome...but front line warriors usually think in one term: dps. They don't think of the guy in the back as contributing to the party. And quite honestly, it's hard to see the effects of some of those things. Now, if sunder also lowered their savings throws and things like that ranged specialist with a paralyzer could effect a red-name....then I think the front line melee guys couldn't ignore the effects of the sunder feat. But as it stands now, I think it's hard to really see or feel the effects of that move in everyday combat.

Mercules
11-20-2007, 09:02 AM
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think that would be awesome...but front line warriors usually think in one term: dps. They don't think of the guy in the back as contributing to the party. And quite honestly, it's hard to see the effects of some of those things. Now, if sunder also lowered their savings throws and things like that ranged specialist with a paralyzer could effect a red-name....then I think the front line melee guys couldn't ignore the effects of the sunder feat. But as it stands now, I think it's hard to really see or feel the effects of that move in everyday combat.

+2 Acid L Rep of Pure Good loaded with Flame Arrow bolts. 4x1d8 per hit. Not great, but that -4 AC will DOUBLE the DPS of that weapon. How many Bards and support characters with 3/4 BAB run around with such weapons? :)

All that damage adds up quickly. In more cohesive groups it can make a big difference. My one friend would Trip a mob, Stunning Blow, a second, Sunder the first, and then move on to 3-5. Our "support" characters could then hit the two he had left behind easily and would have them dead about the time he had the forth down. SPs were saved for bigger groups of mobs and it worked really well. We trio'd a lot of content in this manner.

Talish
11-20-2007, 09:24 AM
All that damage adds up quickly. In more cohesive groups it can make a big difference. My one friend would Trip a mob, Stunning Blow, a second, Sunder the first, and then move on to 3-5. Our "support" characters could then hit the two he had left behind easily and would have them dead about the time he had the forth down. SPs were saved for bigger groups of mobs and it worked really well. We trio'd a lot of content in this manner.

Exactly!!! This is the way my fighter plays. My guild has gotten used to the fact that I drop (trip) a target immediately on engaging and stun the other, sunder the tripped one or a third and then move on. They know that those foes have been left for them while I continue to move my way through the group. Sunder helps many melee types who do not have as high a hit bonus as a pure fighter. Why would you not use it??? Also resources used during the quest are fewer by a fair margin. It's common for casters to skip shrines because they are not needed at the time. It also allows healers to use their offensive spells more and have a blast doing so. (I love a cleric that likes to nail foes with his spells ;) ) If a caster uses crowd control on one group I'll move to the foes that he missed to control them. Crowd control when used by a caster and fighter combined can greatly limit the amount of healing needed.

It makes no sense for a fighter to NOT use a skill that will benefit his group just because there is no benefit to him/her.

oronisi
11-20-2007, 02:05 PM
+2 Acid L Rep of Pure Good loaded with Flame Arrow bolts. 4x1d8 per hit. Not great, but that -4 AC will DOUBLE the DPS of that weapon. How many Bards and support characters with 3/4 BAB run around with such weapons? :)

All that damage adds up quickly. In more cohesive groups it can make a big difference. My one friend would Trip a mob, Stunning Blow, a second, Sunder the first, and then move on to 3-5. Our "support" characters could then hit the two he had left behind easily and would have them dead about the time he had the forth down. SPs were saved for bigger groups of mobs and it worked really well. We trio'd a lot of content in this manner.

You are missing my point though. I have 4 main chars....3 of which are support/ non melee. I know how much I would benefit from another +4 to hit, which is effectively what we are talking about. The point is that melee characters don't think that way. The rangers out there (generalization) don't do damage to begin with, why should the barbarian spend time trying to help the ranger hit while the ranger does **** damage?

Now I personally am not discounting the 3/4 bab character's (and rangers and pallys) contributions to damage, but I don't think many fighters or barbarians think in those terms either. Their job is to kill things, while everyone else's job is to do the healing, CC, and trapsmithing. That frame of mind I see alot of, and I think that it has SOME validity. Sunder is one of the few things that really seems like it only benefits those that don't have it. Trip, stunning blow, healing, CC spells, everything else I can think of can benefit the action user. Why can't we have sunder also benefit the user of the move a little?

Twerpp
11-20-2007, 02:21 PM
Sunder rocks. Its free and it is a normal attack in the chain. Improved Sunder has a higher dc than stunning blow, and is available to anyone with power attack which should be anyone serious about melee DPS. I think you need to be able to hit something in order to Sunder it though. I like your ideas about Sunder Weapon, that would be cool, especially for a tactical AC tank.

Aesop
11-20-2007, 02:25 PM
You are missing my point though. I have 4 main chars....3 of which are support/ non melee. I know how much I would benefit from another +4 to hit, which is effectively what we are talking about. The point is that melee characters don't think that way. The rangers out there (generalization) don't do damage to begin with, why should the barbarian spend time trying to help the ranger hit while the ranger does **** damage?

Now I personally am not discounting the 3/4 bab character's (and rangers and pallys) contributions to damage, but I don't think many fighters or barbarians think in those terms either. Their job is to kill things, while everyone else's job is to do the healing, CC, and trapsmithing. That frame of mind I see alot of, and I think that it has SOME validity. Sunder is one of the few things that really seems like it only benefits those that don't have it. Trip, stunning blow, healing, CC spells, everything else I can think of can benefit the action user. Why can't we have sunder also benefit the user of the move a little?

?

Rangers don't do damage now?

I understand your point , but ... what? You mean Ranged Attackers I'd have to guess. Correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption because I know Rangers can be one of the more damaging classes in game. THose TWF feats without needing to jack Dex mean that a Straight Strength based Ranger can do some awesome damage. I have a duel weilding Drow Finesse based and I have lead 90% of the kill counts... Even with higher level Barbarians and Firewall spewing Evocation Spec'd Sorcerors in the group doing their thing... Rangers are ungodly if you build thme even remortely right... and they just got worse.

Aesop

GrayOldDruid
11-20-2007, 02:35 PM
I can't even give away the named destruction scimitar, never mind sell it..

<---- Named Destruction Scimitar Call me a noob all you want, but, Uhm... I'll take it. I crit on a 15 with it.

and for all the morons who say a Ranged Ranger doesn't do damage, 66+4+5+12 is not bad. Without me, several fights would take at least twice as long if not more and the tanks would take a lot more damage. So, bugger off you Canned-Idiots... There have been several times I've been laughing at the red named constantly flipping directions as I ranged him and the fighter swatted - he couldn't decide who to aggro.

You know why Mobs love Fighters? The easy open, self-basting, can.

Mercules
11-20-2007, 02:42 PM
Their job is to kill things, while everyone else's job is to do the healing, CC, and trapsmithing. That frame of mind I see alot of, and I think that it has SOME validity.

Half of this is the MMO mindset. The other half comes from the Montyhaulism inflated stats aspect of DDO compared to PnP. In PnP you laugh at Wizards who don't do something like carry ranged weapons. In DDO you laugh at the ones that do. PnP everyone has a chance(not meaning only on a 20) of hitting most of what will be thrown at you. In DDO even Fighters might not hit very often if they are not built "correctly". :)

Aesop
11-20-2007, 03:05 PM
<---- Named Destruction Scimitar Call me a noob all you want, but, Uhm... I'll take it. I crit on a 15 with it.

and for all the morons who say a Ranged Ranger doesn't do damage, 66+4+5+12 is not bad. Without me, several fights would take at least twice as long if not more and the tanks would take a lot more damage. So, bugger off you Canned-Idiots... There have been several times I've been laughing at the red named constantly flipping directions as I ranged him and the fighter swatted - he couldn't decide who to aggro.

You know why Mobs love Fighters? The easy open, self-basting, can.

:)

I like you now

My Archer says you're ok in her book too

Aesop

oronisi
11-21-2007, 08:33 AM
?

Rangers don't do damage now?

I understand your point , but ... what? You mean Ranged Attackers I'd have to guess. Correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption because I know Rangers can be one of the more damaging classes in game. THose TWF feats without needing to jack Dex mean that a Straight Strength based Ranger can do some awesome damage. I have a duel weilding Drow Finesse based and I have lead 90% of the kill counts... Even with higher level Barbarians and Firewall spewing Evocation Spec'd Sorcerors in the group doing their thing... Rangers are ungodly if you build thme even remortely right... and they just got worse.

Aesop

No, I meant rangers as in the class. I know that you could theoretically build a good ranger, but I have yet to see one in DDO after over a year. That's right. I have yet to see one that can tank or do noticable dps. The ONLY effective rangers I can think of that I've played with have been ranged combatants that use status weapons like paralyzers.