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GlassCannon
11-16-2007, 10:06 PM
This thread has nothing to do with a feat from a book or whatever called "Energy Substitution".

The SRD is outdated.

Wall of Energy, caster lvl 4

Works just like a Fire Wall but has a dropdown like Resist Energy.

Wall of Energy: Fire
Wall of Energy: Ice
Wall of Energy: Lightning
Wall of Energy: Acid
Wall of Energy: Sonic
Wall of Energy: Light

Allows all arcane casters to use AOE constants according to their specialization.

Also

Energy Fog, caster lvl 5

Works just like Resist Energy, has a dropdown. Same as above, but sphereoid and functions like Solid Fog with a damaging energy.

Ball Energy, caster lvl 3/4/5(whatever)

Functions just like Resist Energy in that it has a dropdown. Sends a ball of selected energy type that explodes on impact toward target or target location from the caster's hand, much like Fireball or Ball Lightning, but can be of any energy type, including Force.


I figure since you fellas make spells anyway, you ought to try throwing these in there for us.

Wall of Energy would override Wall of Fire in the spell slot, as it would literally perform the same function.

Citymorg
11-16-2007, 10:15 PM
While we're at it, can we make the stat increase spells (Bear's, Bull's, Fox's, Eagle's, Owl's and Cat's) a drop down too.

Shade
11-16-2007, 10:17 PM
Agreed. Wall of fire definetely needs to be boosted. Not fair we can't use a cold version on fire imune monsters. Definetely needs to be more powerful.

Kidding aisde.. It's a nice idea, its just not gonna happen because wall of fire is already the most powerful dmg spell in the game, it will never see an increase in effectiveness, even a situational one like this.

Kire
11-16-2007, 10:28 PM
Eh the only way i can see this working is if they are each seperate spells and you can only load one every 3 days or so. This would have to go for wizards and Sorcs.

A good explanation of this to hardcore PnP fans is that the spell is so long and powerful that they can only one type of the walls element at a time inside their spellbook or it will be destroyed and they would lose ALL their spells.

Of course i can still see ppl trying to load more then one of these at a time. Hehe devs should let you do it but if you do theres a 99% chance every spell you have ever learned will be erased. mwahahahah.

~Kire

MrCow
11-16-2007, 10:46 PM
I figure since you fellas make spells anyway, you ought to try throwing these in there for us.

Wall of Energy would override Wall of Fire in the spell slot, as it would literally perform the same function.

Cite the source of where these spells come from and I will support the decision for these to go in. If they aren't actual spells then they shouldn't go in DDO. DDO so far has done a good job of using spells that actually exist in Dungeons and Dragons (even if they had to modify them for one reason or another).

For the most part what you want is fairly overpowering. If they implemented the energy substitution feat you could have your wall of <energy type> and it would be by the books (and not so overpowering).

Symar-FangofLloth
11-16-2007, 10:49 PM
All you need is the Energy Substitution feat. Hopefully they'll add that in sometime.

MysticTheurge
11-16-2007, 11:29 PM
I figure since you fellas make spells anyway, you ought to try throwing these in there for us.

I think every single spell in the game has a D&D source. Your spells don't.

Tanka
11-16-2007, 11:54 PM
I think every single spell in the game has a D&D source. Your spells don't.
Niac's, IIRC, does not have a D&D source. That's the only one.

Perceval418
11-17-2007, 02:09 AM
Kidding aisde.. It's a nice idea, its just not gonna happen because wall of fire is already the most powerful dmg spell in the game, it will never see an increase in effectiveness, even a situational one like this.

With Sorcerer as my favorite/pet class, even im totally against this.

What im for though is better acid spells. I would like to see the acid/electrical sorcerer line become viable in the future. I dont know what D&D spells out there could create this but even so, the beauty of D&D is the ability to create things as a DM and implement them into the game. If i played PnP you know i would have all kinds of crazy spells people could choose, not just the ones from the manual.

Maybe a Acid Ray/Acid Cone spell, an AOE like Fireball only Acid. All of these could do damage as a tick, some of them maybe only do tick damage if the mob fails a reflex or fortitude save (but the damage from the impact of the spell still hits). The only acid spell i ever took on my sorcerer was burning blood and that was just for a couple days to play with it. Mostly it was only useful in pvp but also very cheap (but hillarious).

Riorik
11-17-2007, 04:49 AM
Talking about what I remember from my glorious 1.0 days - I recall a Wall of Ice Spell - as it's own spell, however, it puts up an actual wall (not cold fire energy which is what you seem to be requesting)...and that's it from PnP. Wall of Stone & Wall of Force are fifth level spells and also put up actual walls, not energy fields to do damage...you could always make the Stone appear horizontally above you and have it fall on things.

Deaths_ward
11-17-2007, 05:28 AM
Just give us energy substitution, any spell with an energy type (including force, and meaning you can change spells to force) becomes a drop down menu of what you want to do it as, I'd even be okay with the same animation just flag the damage as a different energy type.

Kire
11-17-2007, 06:48 AM
Just give us energy substitution, any spell with an energy type (including force, and meaning you can change spells to force) becomes a drop down menu of what you want to do it as, I'd even be okay with the same animation just flag the damage as a different energy type.

I doubt they would implement this just because every caster will have their spells set to force (except for a few monsters) cuz most monsters aren't immune to force and/or its not the first resist they cast if they get to buff themselves.

It would just be too overpowered unless they made it cost a BUNCH of mana or make it do less damage.

~Kire

Prinstoni
11-17-2007, 07:10 AM
Wall of Energy, caster lvl 4

Works just like a Fire Wall but has a dropdown like Resist Energy.

Wall of Energy: Fire
Wall of Energy: Ice
Wall of Energy: Lightning
Wall of Energy: Acid
Wall of Energy: Sonic
Wall of Energy: Light

Allows all arcane casters to use AOE constants according to their specialization.

Also

Energy Fog, caster lvl 5

Works just like Resist Energy, has a dropdown. Same as above, but sphereoid and functions like Solid Fog with a damaging energy.

Ball Energy, caster lvl 3/4/5(whatever)

Functions just like Resist Energy in that it has a dropdown. Sends a ball of selected energy type that explodes on impact toward target or target location from the caster's hand, much like Fireball or Ball Lightning, but can be of any energy type, including Force.


I figure since you fellas make spells anyway, you ought to try throwing these in there for us.

Wall of Energy would override Wall of Fire in the spell slot, as it would literally perform the same function.

It will never happen. It would undo all of the blanket immunity fixes that the devs have given to mobs, but I like the idea.

MysticTheurge
11-17-2007, 07:12 AM
Just give us energy substitution, any spell with an energy type (including force, and meaning you can change spells to force) becomes a drop down menu of what you want to do it as, I'd even be okay with the same animation just flag the damage as a different energy type.

Energy substitution doesn't allow the changing of or to Force spells.

lenric
11-17-2007, 07:46 AM
Niac's, IIRC, does not have a D&D source. That's the only one.

One might say that niacs is an ajusted version of ray of cold/frost a 0th level wiz/sorc spell that they added a bit of dmg to, and bumped up a level to make it into DDO...but I'm not so sure...i think they just straight made it up...but to my knowledge every other spell has a pen and paper counterpart.


Oh and MT is correct energy substitution does not allow any changing to or from force...just as resist energy and energy protection do not have force as options...

Perceval418
11-17-2007, 12:25 PM
Theres nothing wrong with making up spells in D&D. The manuals are Guidelines, not the bible. A good DM realizes this and can create spells, classes, skills, etc... that make the game more fun, interesting, while remaining balanced.

I totally encourage Turbine to make new spells as well as implement as many manual spells as they can.

Im just against anything that will cause more nerfs/blanket immunities. We should feel fortunate that we have "resist/protect energy". Take either of those and your getting 5 spells in one.

In my earlier post i said id like to see more viable acid spells. Id also like to see more viable force/sound spells. Nothing overpowered but just something that would make casters think twice about going pure fire/cold specced.

Fetchi
11-18-2007, 12:18 AM
Cite the source of where these spells come from and I will support the decision for these to go in. If they aren't actual spells then they shouldn't go in DDO. DDO so far has done a good job of using spells that actually exist in Dungeons and Dragons (even if they had to modify them for one reason or another).

For the most part what you want is fairly overpowering. If they implemented the energy substitution feat you could have your wall of <energy type> and it would be by the books (and not so overpowering).

I don't agree that having the ability to create any wall of force would be overpowering. Wall of fire is already the most used damaging AOE and DOT spell used. I think you would find that you would select fire for almost everything. The other forces would be minute to unbalance anything.

Just my 2c.

GlassCannon
11-18-2007, 01:59 AM
I doubt they would implement this just because every caster will have their spells set to force (except for a few monsters) cuz most monsters aren't immune to force and/or its not the first resist they cast if they get to buff themselves.

It would just be too overpowered unless they made it cost a BUNCH of mana or make it do less damage.

~Kire

Let's just focus on the yellow word.

Flesh to Stone.

Enervate.

Horrid Wilting.

Wouldn't you please take that statement back now? Or shall I bash more overpowered spells over your post to break its purpose even further?

[eaten by cube] - Cube has been clubbed with Muck's Doom for this eating of my Wizard Hat. My Wizard Hat of Really Good Concentration, that has a drawback of Really Bad Spot Skill(I should have photoshopped it but was in a hurry).

A wizard invented Fire Wall because he liked making walls of things, and he was particularly fond of Fernia, so made a spell called Wall of Fire. Now, other mages adapted the spell for no additional mana cost in certain scenarios, using a dangerous weapon called "Creativity"... game-breakingly overpowered, that "creativity" is. Anyway, one made a Wall of Boiling Acid(he adapted Wall of Fire and Boiling Blood to form a lvl 7 spell), another made a Wall of Lightning, as he was fond of the elements.http://www.teslasystems.com/images/gallery/tesla-coil-suit-1.jpg

There is no reason why we could/should not have a dropdown with other options. No reason against it whatsoever.

MysticTheurge
11-18-2007, 09:21 AM
I don't agree that having the ability to create any wall of force would be overpowering. Wall of fire is already the most used damaging AOE and DOT spell used. I think you would find that you would select fire for almost everything. The other forces would be minute to unbalance anything.

Ok, your rationale for why other Wall of ____ spells (particularly force for which there are no immunities/resists) wouldn't be overpowered is that Wall of Fire is already one of the most powerful (and therefore most used) spells in the game?

ChaosTheEternal
11-18-2007, 09:44 AM
Flesh to Stone.Has a counter, Stone to Flesh.


Enervation.
Horrid Wilting.Both of which are stopped entirely by Death Ward or other Negative Energy protections, even though the latter shouldn't be, unless Horrid Wilting has changed since it was introduced to not be a negative energy spell, in which case, it's not really overpowered for being an 8th level spell.





I don't agree that having the ability to create any wall of force would be overpowering.To reduce or negate the damage caused by Wall of Fire, one can cast Resist Energy: Fire or Protection from Energy: Fire.

Force has no such resistances. A Wall of Force like a Wall of Fire would be even more overpowered than Wall of Fire is. And besides, there already is a Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) spell, and it makes a nearly impenetrable, but invisible, solid wall.

MysticTheurge
11-18-2007, 09:48 AM
Both of which are stopped entirely by Death Ward or other Negative Energy protections, even though the latter shouldn't be, unless Horrid Wilting has changed since it was introduced to not be a negative energy spell, in which case, it's not really overpowered for being an 8th level spell.

Horrid Wilting is changing in Mod 6. It won't be blocked by Death Ward.

ChaosTheEternal
11-18-2007, 09:59 AM
Horrid Wilting is changing in Mod 6. It won't be blocked by Death Ward.I emphasize the word I'm looking for. Currently, the spell can be blocked, and when Mod 6 hits, it "can't be blocked" (which is how it should be). I don't know off the top of my head if there is any spell, anywhere, that could actually block it's damage.

Enervation did the same thing. Prior to the players getting it as a spell, it had a Fortitude Save attached to it. Once we got it, it didn't, but the whole time, Death Ward would block it.

But with Horrid Wilting being a level 8 spell, it's not massively overpowered, especially when the only things player casters get to improve it's damage output are Potency 8 and Arcane Lore items, and good luck on a good Potency 8 item, and enemy casters don't get those.

Kire
11-18-2007, 10:00 AM
Let's just focus on the yellow word.

Flesh to Stone.

Enervate.

Horrid Wilting.

Wouldn't you please take that statement back now? Or shall I bash more overpowered spells over your post to break its purpose even further?

Let's put our pointy hats on and roleplay


A wizard invented Fire Wall because he liked making walls of things, and he was particularly fond of Fernia, so made a spell called Wall of Fire. Now, other mages adapted the spell for no additional mana cost in certain scenarios, using a dangerous weapon called "Creativity"... game-breakingly overpowered, that "creativity" is. Anyway, one made a Wall of Boiling Acid(he adapted Wall of Fire and Boiling Blood to form a lvl 7 spell), another made a Wall of Lightning, as he was fond of the elements.[IMG]

There is no reason why we could/should not have a dropdown with other options. No reason against it whatsoever.

Like someone posted above there are resistances to those. Now i realize there are resistances to all the elements but ppl would just start using this different elements for the double damage on certain animals. Per example: wall of ice on fire ele. This would take the most used spell in the game into a whole new dimension of being over powered. If they did this we should see many more blamket immunities until AI realizes it shoudlnt run into a big wall of elemental damage.

And FtS isnt overpowered. theres a save. its the same as hold person really but with a different save.

Enervation isnt overpowered. TR goggles anyone?

Horrid wilting may be a touch over powered but i see it just the same as i do scorching ray and polar ray. Not used alot cause its one time damage to one mob. If any new spell is overpowered i think it will be otteres irresistable dance. Mainly cuz of the no save part and becasue so many casters get it.

~Kire

ChaosTheEternal
11-18-2007, 10:02 AM
Horrid wilting may be a touch over powered but i see it just the same as i do scorching ray and polar ray. Not used alot cause its one time damage to one mob.Horrid Wilting is an Area of Effect spell, so it'd be more in line with Fireball or Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, but is probably cast like Holy Smite.

MysticTheurge
11-18-2007, 10:10 AM
Horrid Wilting is an Area of Effect spell, so it'd be more in line with Fireball or Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, but is probably cast like Holy Smite.

And it's an 8th level spell.

However, it's worth noting, that in the hands of the players, Wall of Fire is probably still going to be better damage output.

ChaosTheEternal
11-18-2007, 10:22 AM
And it's an 8th level spell.

However, it's worth noting, that in the hands of the players, Wall of Fire is probably still going to be better damage output.
*cough*

But with Horrid Wilting being a level 8 spell, it's not massively overpowered, especially when the only things player casters get to improve it's damage output are Potency 8 and Arcane Lore items, and good luck on a good Potency 8 item, and enemy casters don't get those.
Though I didn't state specifically that Wall of Fire would out-damage it, many spells could, and will, out-damage it for less Spell Points used in most cases.

Azoralq
11-18-2007, 11:38 AM
While I agree that this is a bad, bad, dangerously bad idea in the DDO world, as i would make an extremely powerful spell even more extremely powerful. It's still possible, if DDO went that route.

There is a arcane class in D&D that allows a high level wizard to transmute the energy of a spell into another type of energy. Example: Transmuting a 3rd level fireball to deal force damage, instead of fire damage. I just forget the name of that class.

If DDO implemented his class into the game, then you'd have your Wall of Fire/Ice/Lightning/Acid/Force/Godliness at your fingertips. THough again, if DDO put in this class, you'd never see any other type of spellcaster in the game. DDO might as well delite every spell in the game, and make the only spell obtainable is Wall of Fire/Ice/Lightning/Acid/Force/Godliness.

This is just another example of 'Is it possible in D&D? Yes. Is it possible in DDO? No.'

MysticTheurge
11-18-2007, 02:24 PM
There is a arcane class in D&D that allows a high level wizard to transmute the energy of a spell into another type of energy. Example: Transmuting a 3rd level fireball to deal force damage, instead of fire damage. I just forget the name of that class.

Assuming you're talking about the Archmage's Mastery of Elements High Arcana, you still can't convert to or from Force.

D&D allows for methods of switching between Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire and Sonic. But not Force.

lenric
11-18-2007, 02:39 PM
Assuming you're talking about the Archmage's Mastery of Elements High Arcana, you still can't convert to or from Force.

D&D allows for methods of switching between Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire and Sonic. But not Force.

yea, i'm not sure that people are getting the fact that force isn't an element, and isn't interchangable like the other elements are when reffering to classes and feats that are able to change the elemental damage of a spell.

Azoralq
11-18-2007, 04:52 PM
Yea...you're right. Force is a nono

redoubt
11-18-2007, 05:30 PM
I think the drop down menu would be too much (and my main is a WoF carrying sorc.)

Maybe separate spells. Wall of Ice and snow. Wall of deafening sound (I think I saw this one at Guitar center), Wall of lightning. etc. Acid has stationary aoe already (though it could use a boost.)

By being separate spells you must use multiple spell slots to carry more than one. It would allow new ways to specialize your sorcerer and give a boon to the wizzies via increased flexibility.

captain1z
11-18-2007, 11:37 PM
How about wall of stone.

like a summon pet spell but it summons a wall with hit points and DR that can block doorways and hallways alike.

only way past it is to beat it down, phase thru, or wait for it to wear off.

Aesop
11-19-2007, 12:05 AM
Just Incorporate the Metamagic Feat Energy Substitution (I'd also like Energy Admixture please). Choose a Basic 4 Element and any Spell With an Elemental Subtype can be changed to the chosen element.


Aesop

Mhykke
11-19-2007, 12:58 AM
How about summon chuck norris?

Then we won't need any other spells.

Citymorg
11-19-2007, 02:17 AM
How about summon chuck norris?

Then we won't need any other spells.

Screw that! I want a Summon Leroy Jenkins!

Tenlanni
11-19-2007, 02:59 AM
Screw that! I want a Summon Leroy Jenkins!


Tenser's Transformation?

GlassCannon
11-19-2007, 04:13 AM
But not what I thought I would see. I am disappointed.
http://www.craig-thear.com/images/disappointed.jpg

The dropdown is so a specialized caster can retain a specialization without having to take a spell outside their specialization. And yes, Forceball was an intended part of the Fireball substitution. Monsters can do it, why can't we? Further, I do not appreciate all the DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM sayers saying everything is overpowered and we all need to be omeganerfed in order to keep up with the nerf of nerfness while being nerfed. Nerfynerf.
http://www.theplaymakers.com/welcome/archives/NERF.JPG

Fire Wall is overused simply because it is the only spell that works against broken..*ahem* phasing monsters. If we were to make Acid Fog a bit more powerful, don't you think people would switch to that for those broken... er.. phasing monsters?

The simple matter of fact is, people are going to use what works best for them in a given situation. This leads to cookie cutter builds and stale combat styles. I have seen people in literal terror that a stale combat method may become yet more stale by the implementation of flexibility within specializations to opt for a similar usage of a popular damaging constant. This tells me that there are far too many control freaks in this gaming community, and too few brave and bold people willing to open the horizon and explore a bit, telling the controllers to shut their yap and get off the soapbox. I left a guild for the reason of control freaks trying to force me to do things their way. I ban people from raids because of it. It's not acceptable. Creativity and personal style are a big part of this game and should not be suppressed.

GlassCannon
11-19-2007, 04:37 AM
Enervate - not stopped at all near Antimagic Fields.

Flesh to Stone - same as above. It's permanent near a Beholder(until you die anyway).

Horrid Wilting - I can't wait to see hundreds of posts on the forums asking for a Death Ward enchanted item, like a ring or some such to stop the beholders nailing them with this one too. I want a permanent DW item!

MysticTheurge
11-19-2007, 06:22 AM
And yes, Forceball was an intended part of the Fireball substitution. Monsters can do it, why can't we?

Uh. What?


Fire Wall is overused simply because it is the only spell that works against broken..*ahem* phasing monsters.

Yes, I said as much in my big rant on Wall of Fire and Phasing Monsters, but the solution is not to add more versions of Wall of Fire (which, even aside from phasing monsters, is definitely edging towards the side of overpowered). It's to fix the phasing.

oronisi
11-19-2007, 09:49 AM
Cite the source of where these spells come from and I will support the decision for these to go in. If they aren't actual spells then they shouldn't go in DDO. DDO so far has done a good job of using spells that actually exist in Dungeons and Dragons (even if they had to modify them for one reason or another).

For the most part what you want is fairly overpowering. If they implemented the energy substitution feat you could have your wall of <energy type> and it would be by the books (and not so overpowering).

Elemental substitution is a standard in D&D. I haven't owned one of the pnp books in a while, but I'm pretty sure it's a feat, as well as a standard rule for creating your own spells.

What the OP suggests is totally within the realm of DnD. After they implement the new improved AI for persistant AoE spells, maybe this suggestion would be worth revisiting. As stated by others, with only 1 damage type the spell is too powerful currently. Also, We'd need these to be separate spells. Giving the caster the ability to cast wall of fire or wall of acid by only using one spell slot is still overpowered, even with the new AI coming.

oronisi
11-19-2007, 09:53 AM
How about wall of stone.

like a summon pet spell but it summons a wall with hit points and DR that can block doorways and hallways alike.

only way past it is to beat it down, phase thru, or wait for it to wear off.

You know that's a great way to implement Wall of Stone! I was thinking they would never implement it because it would be invulnerable and allow PCs an unfair advantage over the enemies. But if the enemies can attack the wall when they can't get to the PC, then the spell can and should be implemented.

Now we just need a dev....Someone, grab Codog and make him read captain1z's idea.

ChaosTheEternal
11-19-2007, 06:26 PM
And yes, Forceball was an intended part of the Fireball substitution. Monsters can do it, why can't we?What monsters can do Energy Substitution in DDO? What monsters can substitute Force for any other damage in a damage spell?



Enervate - not stopped at all near Antimagic Fields.

Flesh to Stone - same as above. It's permanent near a Beholder(until you die anyway).Uh, yeah, but the complaint should be about beholders in that case, not what they use. They shouldn't be able to hit you with either while they're looking at you with their main eye, but they can. That's the bug.

Saying that two spells are overpowered because a buggy mob uses them isn't really any weight to call them overpowered. Oh, and Enervation can still be stopped even next to a beholder, with an easily acquired item. The Silver Flame Pendant.

But under your statement, then:
Scorching Ray
Polar Ray
Telekinesis
Finger of Death
Slay Living
Slow
Disintegrate
Are also overpowered because they can be used by a beholder and protections for them get dispelled when a beholder looks at you. So is everything cast in the Orchard overpowered too, because they cast (Greater?) Dispel Magic to then hit us with other spells?



Horrid Wilting - I can't wait to see hundreds of posts on the forums asking for a Death Ward enchanted item, like a ring or some such to stop the beholders nailing them with this one too. I want a permanent DW item!Except in Mod 6, nothing will stop Horrid Wilting. And nothing should stop it (barring any spell from the Spell Compendium that actually can prevent the damage that I don't know about off the top of my head). You didn't read the first posts of page 2, now did you?

And beholders don't use Horrid Wilting. They can't, because it's not a ray spell. It's an AoE.







Elemental substitution is a standard in D&D.It's a feat in a non-core source book. Makes it very much not standard. Is it a common thing allowed? Sure. Is it always? No.


What the OP suggests is totally within the realm of DnD.Except for the part of converting to Force damage. None of the Energy Substitution means allow a conversion to Force, because Force is not an elemental effect. Allowing Force means they have to treat Force like an element and give it a Resist Energy and Protection from Energy effect (to offset the fact that pretty much every player would take Energy Substitution and substitute Force for everything) for Force.


Also, We'd need these to be separate spells. Giving the caster the ability to cast wall of fire or wall of acid by only using one spell slot is still overpowered, even with the new AI coming.Which, actually, goes against how Energy Substitution works. Energy Substitution allows that.

But mobs don't seem to have the AI to know which Resist or Protection to cast (short of obvious ones, like Pro Fire on mummies), and, as far as I know, don't have the ability to cast any Resist or Protection as we do, only the specific ones they're coded to.

GlassCannon
11-25-2007, 12:36 PM
Buggy monsters use all sorts of crazy damage types. I have indeed looked in my combat log to see a troglodye had hit me with a Melf's Force Arrow(force damage in supposition of acid, and yes I had Shield on).

As for Enervate it is simply incredibly overused in the DDO environment by trolls, drow, vampires, etc. I'm glad we don't get spammed with Flesh to Stone by casters with infinite mana(WHICH IS A HUGE PROBLEM).

Energy Substitution is not a part of this thread until it was placed there by someone else. I am NOT TALKING ABOUT ENERGY SUBSTITUTION.

As for beholders not using horrid wilting, just watch... everything else will... then Beholders will get AOEs.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the topic, as the topic does not include energy substitution.

ChaosTheEternal
11-25-2007, 01:05 PM
Buggy monsters use all sorts of crazy damage types. I have indeed looked in my combat log to see a troglodye had hit me with a Melf's Force Arrow(force damage in supposition of acid, and yes I had Shield on).Yeah, and I've been hit by Banshee's Wail by a CR 0.25 Kobold.

Unless you have proof in the form of a screen shot, you can't make a claim that they can switch damage types on spells.


As for Enervate it is simply incredibly overused in the DDO environment by trolls, drow, vampires, etc.Hrm? I don't see Vampires using Enervate. Though, any mob that can have 7 levels of Wizard (or 8 levels of Sorcerer) can cast it, and they have it as a viable means of attack. Which trolls and drow can get, especially at the level we are at.

Looking at CRs for 7th level wizard mobs:

Drow: CR 8
Vampire: CR 9
Troll: CR 12


I'm glad we don't get spammed with Flesh to Stone by casters with infinite mana(WHICH IS A HUGE PROBLEM).Which is an entirely off-topic for this thread, which, under your opinion, makes it irrelevant for the topic.


As for beholders not using horrid wilting, just watch... everything else will... then Beholders will get AOEs.There are only two mobs I know of right now in DDO that use Horrid Wilting. Whisperdoom and the boss in From Beyond the Grave. High level caster mobs will likely be able to cast it, and possibly more boss mobs will get it. But you have no standing to say beholders will gain the ability to use it.


Energy Substitution is not a part of this thread until it was placed there by someone else. I am NOT TALKING ABOUT ENERGY SUBSTITUTION.I wasn't talking to you when I was talking about Energy Substitution. So why do you care?

Tanka
11-25-2007, 01:16 PM
Hrm? I don't see Vampires using Enervate. Though, any mob that can have 7 levels of Wizard (or 8 levels of Sorcerer) can cast it, and they have it as a viable means of attack. Which trolls and drow can get, especially at the level we are at.

Looking at CRs for 7th level wizard mobs:

Drow: CR 8
Vampire: CR 9
Troll: CR 12

Which is an entirely off-topic for this thread, which, under your opinion, makes it irrelevant for the topic.
He's talking about Blood Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), which uses the same animation as Enervation.


Blood Drain (Ex)

A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

ChaosTheEternal
11-25-2007, 01:25 PM
He's talking about Blood Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), which uses the same animation as Enervation.I know that effect has the same animation, and it can be fairly easy to confuse.

[Posted 11-10-2007] ... I do know the Blood Drain ability of Vampires in DDO has the same animation on players as a negative level effect (like from Enervation). It can be fairly confusing when it happens.

But my point still stands. Vampires don't use Enervation, though the CR they could be when they can is well below what we see, as well as with other creatures.

Tanka
11-25-2007, 01:34 PM
I know that effect has the same animation, and it can be fairly easy to confuse.


But my point still stands. Vampires don't use Enervation, though the CR they could be when they can is well below what we see, as well as with other creatures.
Right, my point is he is probably confusing Blood Drain for Enervation, being that they have the same animation.

ChaosTheEternal
11-25-2007, 01:39 PM
Right, my point is he [as well as many others are] probably confusing Blood Drain for Enervation, being that they have the same animation.Fixed. And yeah, I, too, wish they'd change the animation. I'd think the Puncturing animation would work fine for that.

Of course, I think it'd be nice if they also gave Wraith's Constitution Drain an animation when you're hit by it. So inconsistent.

MysticTheurge
11-25-2007, 01:51 PM
Uh guys, Vampires don't have to use Enervation to give negative levels:


Energy Drain (Su)

Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

ChaosTheEternal
11-25-2007, 01:55 PM
Uh guys, Vampires don't have to use Enervation to give negative levels:No, but it would let them give negative levels at range (well, at a greater range than the messed up melee range mobs seem to get).

Hvymetal
11-26-2007, 03:06 AM
Basically what I get out of people wanting to be able to substitute force type damage for one of the various energy types used by damaging spells is that they basically want to have an easy button so they only have to mem one or two damaging spells and don't have to worry about resistance or immunity yes? No, that is the downside of playing a caster as I see it, you can put out huge amounts of damage and insta-kill things with the trade off that you have to plan ahead what spells you want to bring. Think most melees only have one type of general damage weapon that works on everything?

GlassCannon
12-14-2007, 06:44 AM
I Initially wanted WoE for an Acid/Lightning build as well, as people commonly demand that you have the spell loaded, even if you only deal 5 damage a turn with it.

A Necromancer using Wall of Negative Energy would be particularly nasty...

A Cleric using Wall of Positive Energy would be devastating to Undeads... and heal the party at the same time.

Or we could just go with the AOE part I also want: Ball Energy.

I use Fireball and Otiluke's enough(trying to steer clear of using Fire Wall so I can keep my edge) to see the useful aspect of a Ball of Acid or a Ball of Force.

Melf's could also use a counterpart: Arrow of Burning Embers(or whatever...), Melfs with Fire damage.

I'd also like to see Energy Arrow instead of Fire Arrow, imbuing arrows for your party with various effectual energy types like Cold and Lightning(one per stack of arrows).

As things are it's a bit limited.

And yes, Flesh to Stone cannot be countered by the victim and is therefore overpowered.

Horrid Wilting will be excessively overpowered. Pray that it does not enter the Brawling Area like Flesh to Stone and Finger of Death(which were allowed by mistake... a mistake that still hasn't been corrected).

Talon_Moonshadow
12-14-2007, 12:12 PM
No way!
I can't wait till MOD6 and devils eliminates the current trend of firewall, firewall, firewall!

It's boring boring boring.

I hate nerfs, so the only real solution is exactly what the devs are doing....giving us monsters that are immune to a currently abused tactic.

Crarites
12-14-2007, 12:32 PM
Think most melees only have one type of general damage weapon that works on everything?

You mean like a +5 transmuting greataxe of maiming? Yah, I think i might have one one of those...

Hvymetal
12-14-2007, 03:13 PM
You mean like a +5 transmuting greataxe of maiming? Yah, I think i might have one one of those...You might, and like I said "most"......