PDA

View Full Version : Staying Pure Classed? - A 'State of the Game' Posting



Dworkin_of_Amber
11-14-2007, 02:50 PM
Granted that we don't really know what new Feats and Enhancements are coming in Mod 6 yet, but we know a little bit...

Feats:
Force of Personality, Insightful Reflexes, Superior Two-Weapon, Superior Two-Handed Fighting, and the Rogue Class Feats (Slippery Mind, Skill Mastery, Improved Evasion)

Enhancements:
Ranger Specialty Enhancements (Tempest, Arcane Archer, Deadwood Sniper) - It is assumed at this point to be a Level 6 or 9 Enhancement
Rogue Level 2 Specialty Enhancements (WotM 2, WotA 2, WotTA 2) - Although this has not been confirmed for Mod 6 or later

Spells:
See the WDA for the full Spell List
Bard Level 6 Spells
Wizard/Sorc Level 8 Spells
Cleric Level 8 Spells

But overall, the list has me really wondering... with the exception of the Caster Classes (Cleric, Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer) and Rogues, are there really all that many GOOD reasons to stay pure class anymore? Obviously the Casters have the desire to stay pure for Healing or CC/Firepower, and Bards are either Pure or MC as it is, depending on their Specialty Enhancement, and Rogues are either Pure or Splashed as it is... but looking at Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, and even Barbarian... I am seeing fewer and fewer reasons to stay Pure Class anymore, given the DDO system.

In any group you will have those that argue for Pure Class for the Pure Classes sake, but let's look at the practical reality.

1)Paladins: Beyond Paladin 11 (30-point Resist, BoG 3, RoG 3) there are few convincing reasons to stay pure class. Level 4 Spells are lackluster, with the exception of Death Ward (and even the updated Holy Sword isn't that impressive), and offer little incentive to the Paladin to stay pure classed, when compared with the advantages of splashing Fighter or Rogue or Ranger. Additionally, the increasing cost for many of the Paladin Enhancements are a severe barrier to taking the highest-level Enhancements like RoG3&BoG3, let alone considering that if there was a RoG4/BoG4 would be 8 AP's (Two Level's Worth of Enhancements) each!

2)Rangers: After either Ranger 11, 13, 15 (Rng 11 for the Combat Feats: PS, IPS, GTWF; Ranger 13 for the highest-level FE Enhancements; Ranger 15 for Level 4 Spells and the 4th FE), there is little reason left to continue Ranger. The Ranger’s Class ability/feat progression show Hide in Plain Sight @ 17 (which, I can’t see how could actually work in DDO, as hide/sneak will not lose agro), and a 5th FE @ 20. There are no other Combat Feats auto-granted per the SRD, nor are there any higher-level spells for Rangers, so there is little reason to continue Ranger. Enhancement wise, the Ranger’s Enhancements are not as expensive as the Fighter or Paladin’s, but have diminishing returns (5AP for an additional +1 To Hit or Damage vs. FE)

3)Fighters: After Fighter 12 (GreaterWeaponSpec) the only real reason for Fighter is the Bonus Feats, but without any other combat-related feats to look forward to, there are fewer and fewer "viable" feats to really take. While there are many feats most fighters want to take, if you stick with a single weapon class, you end up with around 12-14 Feats to take (WFocus, WSpec, GWFocus, GWSpec, IC, Toughness, CE, Power Attack, Improved Trip, TWF/ITWF/GTWF or THF/ITHF/GTHF or Cleave/Great Cleave or Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack), and a Level 14 non-human Fighter gets 13 Feats as it is, which means 15 feats @ Level 16 (14 & 16 for human, respectively). How many feats will the Fighter really need? Additionally, what Fighter Enhancement would even be worth taking at a 4th level (ie. Armor Mastery 4 @ 8AP’s) or 5th level (ie. Fighter’s Trip 5 @ 5 AP’s)? They would not be cost-effective Enhancements to take.


4)Barbarians: I think Barbarian has the most to offer by continuing to stay Pure Classed, but there is some concern. The Barbarian does have Tireless Rage (no fatigue @ end or Rage) @ 17 and Mighty Rage (+8/+8 Rage) @ 20, and an additional rage/day with each, which have definite merit, but the Enhancements, with the sole exception of Barbarian’s Critical Rage series, leave a lot to be desired. Is 5 AP’s going to be worth an additional +1 STR, for a total of +5, while raging? Even if Critical Rage 3 is 6 AP’s, most Barbarians will spend it willingly, but the other Enhancements seem to be reaching the end of their usefulness. More importantly, if the Critical Rage series is NOT continued, I doubt that Tireless & Mighty Rage are going to be worth it, over a Fighter or other class splash.


Now, looking at the ‘benefits’ to Multi-Classing for each of these primary classes

1)Paladins: Adding Fighter grants Bonus Feats and Tower Shield proficiency, both of which are very attractive to the Paladin. Adding Rogue adds Evasion and lots of Skill Points, allowing a Paladin to max his UMD to go with his high-Charisma for Raise Dead scrolls, and Evasion, even with the light-armor restriction, is a very popular choice for the survivability factor. Ranger is a less-popular choice, unless it is a dex-based Paladin, then getting some +DEX enhancements and Bow Strength/TWF for free. Even a splash of Sorc can be a good choice for SP and a self-buff spell or two. But I would say that Fighter and Rogue (or both) are the most popular options for the Paladin post level 11, as they tend to gain far more than they lose.

2)Rangers: Beyond 11/13/15, depending on your point of view, Rangers can certainly benefit from Rogue, Fighter, Paladin, or Barbarian, as their alignment dictates… or even Bard/Wiz/Sorc, depending on their Cha or Int. Rogue is obvious for the Rogue-skills (Disable/Search/Open/UMD), as well as Sneak Attack Damage, especially for a Ranged-focused Ranger. While Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian are more obvious choices for the melee-ranger (but many a ranged-ranger will go into these classes as well). The Fighter’s Bonus Feats and Armor Proficiency offer a lot more DPS and AC potential to many rangers, Paladin offers much better saves and Armor Proficiency, while Barbarian offers the Barbarian Fast Movement and DPS opportunities that many Rangers will love. I think that Fighter is probably the most popular, but any of the other 3 full-BAB classes are good options for Rangers to move into

3)Fighters: If the Fighter is a specialized build that really needs the additional feats or there are new high-level combat feats worth taking, then staying pure fighter will remain an attractive option, otherwise the Fighter has a lot to gain by moving into Paladin to shore up his saves and give wand-usage to the fighter, or Ranger for the same Wand Healing, a little better saves, and TWF or Bow Strength for a Ranged-Fighter, or Barbarian for pure DPS focus. Even Rogue can be an option for the fighter for the Skill Points (UMD again), and even Evasion. The Caster Classes are usually not great options, as the fighter usually is low on INT/WIS/CHA.

4)Barbarian: Again, a lot of this depends on if the Critical Rage enhancement line is continued, but if not, then Barbarian 13 for Critical Rage 2 or Barbarian 14 for Indominable Will might likely be the upper limit for many Barbarians. Fighter is the best place for these build to go to pickup the Heavy Armor and Bonus Feats for additional versatility and DPS.


I believe that at the heart of this is a potentially fatal flaw in the DDO implementation of Multi Classing and the Enhancement System. By removing the penalties to Multi Classing, as DDO has, such as the loss of class abilities, favored class, and XP penalties, DDO has created a system that rewards Multi Classing for many of the classes, and has very little incentive to stay pure classed, except for the caster-classes. Additionally, the increasing costs of the Enhancement System creates a serious point of diminishing returns on the Enhancements, that will quickly remove the remaining reasons to stay pure classed. Now, I am not advocating reinstating the Multi Class penalties, as that would invalidate far too many existing builds and anger much of the DDO population, but something must be fixed somewhere.

There are few ‘viable’ fixes that I can see that will not break many existing builds the way that the Mod 3.3 Enhancement system overhaul did to some builds, such as the Batman build. But, if the current system continues, it can only foster an environment where nearly all of the melee-classes are forced into Multi Classing due to a serious lack of rewards for staying pure. The options that I can see are:

1)Reduce the AP cost for the Higher-Level Class Enhancements as they continue and/or increase the benefit of the Enhancements. For example, drop Bulwark of Good 3 to 4 AP’s, and make BoG 4 & 5 4 AP’s each as well… or Make BoG 4 worth +2 Additional AC for 6AP’s.

2)Implement high-level Class-specific Enhancements, such as the Barbarian’s Critical Rage, for each of the Melee Classes that give a good reason to stay pure classed. For example, Ranger 15 offers Improved Multishot 1: +1 Arrow, +25% duration of Multishot, with increases at 17 and 20

3)Implement true Multi-Classing Penalties, such as the loss of Class Abilities if another class is taken. HOWEVER, this can only be done if it is also offered along with a one-time-only full-respec of our characters to realign them to the new Multi-Classing system. I know there are concerns over full respecs, and this has been discussed in the past, including potential problems with not tracking skill points/level and tomes and such, and this would have to be worked out.

4)Scrap the entire Enhancement System. I don’t think this is a good choice, as it would invalidate builds, and require a re-balancing of the entire game.

Ultimately, the decision is up to the Dev Team, but unless they have something amazing up their sleeves for the next Level Cap increase and we know nothing about it, I don’t see how this cap raise will do anything but exacerbate the situation. Please understand that I am bringing this entire discussion up for the benefit of the Devs and the community as a whole, to try and help the Devs realize the situation that it appears that they have backed themselves into with the current system, and to offer some insight on the behalf of the players and builders as a whole, and to give some ideas on how to fix it.

I know there are many who will argue that Pure Class is best, and the like, and I applaud you for sticking to your guns on that, but for the Power-Gamers, Min/Maxers, Hardcore Raiders, and/or those wishing to maximize their character’s potential within the game, I truly believe that my above assessment is quite accurate. Now, many Casual Players may not understand or agree with this, and there may be many who don’t care, but the Power-Gamers, Min/Maxers, Hardcore Raiders or whatever you wish to call them do make up a sizable portion of the DDO community (and probably a very large percentage of the Forums Community), and I hope the Devs can hear this and respond appropriately to allay our fears.

MrCow
11-14-2007, 02:55 PM
Additionally, the increasing cost for many of the Paladin Enhancements are a severe barrier to taking the highest-level Enhancements like RoG3&BoG3, let alone considering that if there was a RoG4/BoG4 would be 8 AP's (Two Level's Worth of Enhancements) each!

I believe the plans for the enhancement system back when hsinclair made it was to keep 6 AP as the maximum tier for an enhancement line. This means either the enhancement system stops at 3rd tier for aura benefits, the 4th tier is 6 AP, the 4th tier is 8 AP and they break what they intended to do, or the change the cost to 1/2/3/4.

isldur
11-14-2007, 02:59 PM
Nice post. I would agree tho as you stated thieves and ranger are getting new enhancement branches, but the worst one with no planned or announced additions is palidan.

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-14-2007, 03:00 PM
I believe the plans for the enhancement system back when hsinclair made it was to keep 6 AP as the maximum tier for an enhancement line. This means either the enhancement system stops at 3rd tier for aura benefits, the 4th tier is 6 AP, the 4th tier is 8 AP and they break what they intended to do, or the change the cost to 1/2/3/4.

Then for some classes, and Paladins in particular, the Enhancement future is even more bleak, and there are no other Enhancements worth extending to additional levels, save LoH and possibly Extra Smites... but that leaves even fewer reasons to continue in the Paladin class. :(

Tulsa_Doom
11-14-2007, 03:01 PM
Ok the title refers to what I am about to do which is odd because I have 2 mult-class barbs and two more toons with a lvl apiece but I have to disagree. Barbarians may be one of the best classes to quote unquote stay pure. As a barbarian you dont need hvy armor feats and most fighter feats help fighters come close to the gap that barbarians widen all the time with dps. Tireless rage and mighty rage are awesome albeit a bit late in the progression and at least 4-8 months away given the present rate of lvl increase. APs for a barbarian are at a high premium and addtl lvls just add more power to the already brutal barbarian class.

Jaywade
11-14-2007, 03:07 PM
I understand the op but of course it's looks beak to you you don;t klnow what they are working on .... I think we must all take a "wait and see" stance.... maybe they will hit a homerun (mod 4 giant hold) maybe not let's see

sigtrent
11-14-2007, 03:17 PM
My response is a big... SO?

I do think there should be reasons to be a pure class character, but not reasons that are so good they nessesarily make it compelling to multi class.

When you look at anything on level breaks you will come up wtih scewed results. Some level's its good to multi class, later on it might not be so good, etc... But you can't make a weak character by single classing. You may not have every bell and whistle the game has to offer but you will be good at what it is your class is supposed to be good at.

The fighting classes and skill classes are fairly good at multi classing because more of their class abbilities stack wtih one another than when you mix casting classes. Personaly I prefer that. I love the mix and match create your own class fell of the current generation DDO. Gone are the days when one fighter was only different from another by virtue of what loot they had.


1)Reduce the AP cost for the Higher-Level Class Enhancements as they continue and/or increase the benefit of the Enhancements. For example, drop Bulwark of Good 3 to 4 AP’s, and make BoG 4 & 5 4 AP’s each as well… or Make BoG 4 worth +2 Additional AC for 6AP’s.

I always lobbied for enhancements to have a flat tier cost when the benefit was flat. It doesn't make any sense from a balance perspective. So I'm all for this but it wouldn't change any of my builds (all of them multi classed) in any significant way.


2)Implement high-level Class-specific Enhancements, such as the Barbarian’s Critical Rage, for each of the Melee Classes that give a good reason to stay pure classed. For example, Ranger 15 offers Improved Multishot 1: +1 Arrow, +25% duration of Multishot, with increases at 17 and 20

This may well be the plan already. We don't know what the plans are for enhancements but presumably they will be adding new lines and higher levels of existing lines. When they re-balanced the scale it seemed intentional that they did it for long term growth. i'd wager most classes will get some spiffy Lv 20 enhancments. So I'm all for this.


3)Implement true Multi-Classing Penalties, such as the loss of Class Abilities if another class is taken. HOWEVER, this can only be done if it is also offered along with a one-time-only full-respec of our characters to realign them to the new Multi-Classing system. I know there are concerns over full respecs, and this has been discussed in the past, including potential problems with not tracking skill points/level and tomes and such, and this would have to be worked out.

Utterly pointless. Who cares about a 10% or at most 20% xp hit on your characters? I'll just do 20% more quests to cap out. It only serves to irritate poepole, not balance the game in any way. In normal D&D this means you lag a bit behind your companions (at most 1 level) but in DDO it means nothing because you quest with whomever is of a similar level to you.


4)Scrap the entire Enhancement System. I don’t think this is a good choice, as it would invalidate builds, and require a re-balancing of the entire game.

Enhancements have nothing to do with the reasons you should or shouldn't multi class. Class abbilities are 90-100% the reason you multi class. Fighter is actualy the only class I can think of where I would take levels specificaly to get enhancements.

Mockduck
11-14-2007, 03:32 PM
The reason I stick to pure class is because it's easier to understand and makes it so I pretty much know I'm at least going to be good at one thing - the main thing my class is good at. Multi-classing is great for those who can figure it out. Not that it's always that confusing, but there are just too many "traps" for me to feel confident in multiclassing very much.

Then again, that's what I did in PnP as well. Never got the hang of multiclassing.

I don't feel my character is "gimped" because it's not multi-classed. I'm sure they could be more powerful if I spent the time to work on it, but I'd rather play the game!

Of course, I'm a more casual player when it comes to this kind of thing and am always amazed at just how good some people are with the numbers....

As a matter of fact, the only time I've multi-classed is when I accidentally took a level of cleric on a ranger because I'd had too many beers before leveling up and didn't realize who I was talking to.

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Don't level up your characters if you've been drinking. Leveling is for the sober.

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-14-2007, 03:47 PM
Utterly pointless. Who cares about a 10% or at most 20% xp hit on your characters? I'll just do 20% more quests to cap out. It only serves to irritate poepole, not balance the game in any way. In normal D&D this means you lag a bit behind your companions (at most 1 level) but in DDO it means nothing because you quest with whomever is of a similar level to you.

I was not meaning XP penalties, but the Multi Classing penalties in PnP. For example a Paladin who levels up in another class loses his aura and LoH and any Faith-based stuffs, or a Cleric who loses his spellcasting until he takes another level of Cleric, or Barbarians losing their rage & fast movement... things along those lines.


Enhancements have nothing to do with the reasons you should or shouldn't multi class. Class abbilities are 90-100% the reason you multi class. Fighter is actualy the only class I can think of where I would take levels specificaly to get enhancements.

I guess the Barbarian Power Critical doesn't count as an Enhancement?

But seriously, my point is that PnP always encouraged Pure Classes, and with the direction of DDO right now, there is virtually no incentive for many of the melee-type classes to stay Pure... and that is a concern.

MysticTheurge
11-14-2007, 03:47 PM
For what it's worth, the only reason you don't see more multiclassed spellcasters is that we haven't hit 17th yet.

Once we do, I suspect Caster 17/Something Else 3 will become a far more common build. Something 1/Caster the Rest is only useful in a few circumstances. The 17/3 combo will be more useful in more circumstances.

Multiclassing is part of D&D. And given that DDO has done away with the main reason not to do it (XP penalty is a huge deterrent in D&D, not that it would be a very significant obstacle in DDO), it's just going to happen.

Be glad there aren't real prestige classes yet or you'd see even fewer "pure class" characters. (In fact, I don't think I've ever played a D&D game where someone was actually planning on going "pure class." I mean, I know some people do, and to great effect, but with prestige classes out there, it's fairly rare.)

Aesop
11-14-2007, 03:50 PM
For what it's worth, the only reason you don't see more multiclassed spellcasters is that we haven't hit 17th yet.

Once we do, I suspect Caster 17/Something Else 3 will become a far more common build. Something 1/Caster the Rest is only useful in a few circumstances. The 17/3 combo will be more useful in more circumstances.

Multiclassing is part of D&D. And given that DDO has done away with the main reason not to do it (XP penalty is a huge deterrent in D&D, not that it would be a very significant obstacle in DDO), it's just going to happen.

Be glad there aren't real prestige classes yet or you'd see even fewer "pure class" characters. (In fact, I don't think I've ever played a D&D game where someone was actually planning on going "pure class." I mean, I know some people do, and to great effect, but with prestige classes out there, it's fairly rare.)

I think the only DnD character I've ever played pure... no wait I've got two. A Druid... cause there is nothing wrong with a Pure Druid and an Artificer... cause well there is nothing wrong with a Pure Artificer

Aesop

Aesop
11-14-2007, 03:56 PM
I

But seriously, my point is that PnP always encouraged Pure Classes, and with the direction of DDO right now, there is virtually no incentive for many of the melee-type classes to stay Pure... and that is a concern.

I disagree about DnD promoting pure classes 3.0 was worse than 3.5 in this regard... especially the ranger class which was hugely front loaded in 3.0. I've only seen one person routinely play a pure class character and we broke him of that after his third paladin went down to a Flame Strike. In PnP you get more bang for your buck from MC. All classes are decent when made Pure but... only Druid is really ungodly when pure everything else has better benefits from either MCing or PrCing. Even my current Druid is a 1Ranger/2Monk/10 Druid... I can track a Hawk on a Cloudy Day.

Aesop

Symar-FangofLloth
11-14-2007, 04:03 PM
I was not meaning XP penalties, but the Multi Classing penalties in PnP. For example a Paladin who levels up in another class loses his aura and LoH and any Faith-based stuffs, or a Cleric who loses his spellcasting until he takes another level of Cleric, or Barbarians losing their rage & fast movement... things along those lines.


What Edition are you playing, bud?
3.x does NOT have multiclass penalties like these. The type of things you listed result from straying from your alignment restrictions, and in the paladin's case, breaking their code even if they stay lawful good. The multiclass penalties in 3.x, aside from an XP hit, are certain classed, namely paladin and monk, cannot continue increasing your class if you take another class. However, there are feats that circumvent this (Eberron feats, no less), and many PrCs specifically say that you may continue advancing as 'whatever' class. Otherwise, any penalties are 'merely' things like reduced caster level and spellpoints, less skill points, and so on, which we (hopefully) are already all aware of, as they currently exist in DDO.

Tanka
11-14-2007, 05:22 PM
Real quick, somebody point the out the statement from a Dev that says Superior TWF/THF is in for Mod 6, because I've seen nada on it, and everybody keeps saying it is. Either it's a rumor that is patently false, or it was stated somewhere in an offhand comment that never registered.

MysticTheurge
11-14-2007, 05:38 PM
Real quick, somebody point the out the statement from a Dev that says Superior TWF/THF is in for Mod 6, because I've seen nada on it, and everybody keeps saying it is. Either it's a rumor that is patently false, or it was stated somewhere in an offhand comment that never registered.

Codog mentioned it in his post stating what animations have what attack hooks on them.

I'll look for it.

Edit --


With two handed weapons,

Attack 1 with two handed weapons has a primary attack hook plus glancing attack hooks.
Greater Twohanded Weapon Fighting adds a glancing blow to attack 4
Superior Twohanded Weapon Fighting adds a glancing blow to attack 5 (when we get there)

With two weapon fighting,

Attack 1 has RH attack hook.
Attack 2 has RH, LH attack hook.
Attack 3 has RH attack hook
Attack 4 has RH attack hook
Attack 5 has RH, LH attack hook.

Improved TWF adds a LH attack hook to attack 3.
Greater TWF adds a LH attack hook to moving attack 1 (weird that it doesn't for standing... I'll be checking with design) and LH to attack 4.
Superior TWF adds another RH attack to attack 5.

Tanka
11-14-2007, 05:48 PM
Codog mentioned it in his post stating what animations have what attack hooks on them.

I'll look for it.

Edit --
Thanks MT. Biggest thing that struck me in that statement:

When we get there.

Don't go jumping the gun that it's in Mod 6. It may be, it may not be. We don't know until one of the Devs states specifically that it's in Mod 6, or we see it in the WDA.

Anyway, more to the point.

Barbs will stay pure class, at least through 14, for Crit Rage 2. Rangers will (usually) stay pure class for the higher benefits of TWF/Ranged combat that they get. Casters will stay pure until they get 9th level spells, and then they may splash for something else. Sorcs, for instance, will probably pick up 2 Pal (18 Sorc/2 Pal) for ridiculous saves. Clerics with good Cha I can see hitting 17 Clr/1 Sorc/2 Pal for more SP and better saves. Clerics without good Cha I can see going 17 Clr/1 Monk/2 something else (or even 3 Monk, whenever they come out at least) for Wis bonus to AC. Rogues will continue to multi frequently, as will quite a few Fighters and Paladins.

Unless there's a great (and by great I mean stupendously-how-could-you-pass-that-up-good) enhancement, several classes will not stay pure at all. What reason is there? More SP? More BAB? More feats? Pshaw. A few levels in another class often adds a lot of power to an otherwise powerful character.

Riorik
11-14-2007, 05:56 PM
Rogue Level 2 Specialty Enhancements (WotM 2, WotA 2, WotTA 2) - Although this has not been confirmed for Mod 6 or later


So what are these in non-abbreviations?

MrCow
11-14-2007, 06:36 PM
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Don't level up your characters if you've been drinking. Leveling is for the sober.

Thats signature worthy stuff there. :D


So what are these [WotM 2, WotA 2, WotTA 2] in non-abbreviations?

Way of the Mechanic II
Way of the Assassin II
Way of the Acrobat II

ErgonomicCat
11-14-2007, 08:54 PM
I disagree about DnD promoting pure classes 3.0 was worse than 3.5 in this regard... especially the ranger class which was hugely front loaded in 3.0. I've only seen one person routinely play a pure class character and we broke him of that after his third paladin went down to a Flame Strike. In PnP you get more bang for your buck from MC. All classes are decent when made Pure but... only Druid is really ungodly when pure everything else has better benefits from either MCing or PrCing. Even my current Druid is a 1Ranger/2Monk/10 Druid... I can track a Hawk on a Cloudy Day.

Aesop

Agreed 100%. Once again, I think DDO has done a better job that DnD. There is no reason to stay pure classed in D&D. Even ignoring prestige classes, only pure casters will stay single classed. When PrCs are included, there is *no* reason to be X 20, other than druid 20.

D&D tried with substitution levels, but again, it's rare that they are worth it. DDO has enhancements, on the other hand, which can be *very* worth it (Critical Rage? Yes please!).

Hell, I submitted a freelance request to Dragon to add something like the enhancement system to D&D, because I think it's such a good idea.

MysticTheurge
11-14-2007, 09:10 PM
Even ignoring prestige classes, only pure casters will stay single classed. When PrCs are included, there is *no* reason to be X 20, other than druid 20.

And there are even some nice Druid prestige classes, what with the game-breakingly overpowered Planar Shepherd. ;)

Kalanth
11-14-2007, 09:38 PM
Enhancements:
Ranger Specialty Enhancements (Tempest, Arcane Archer, Deadwood Sniper) - It is assumed at this point to be a Level 6 or 9 Enhancement

I knew about all the other stuff, but I must have missed these. At least now I know the answer to the question that always was in the back of my head. What are they going to do about Prestige Classes?

As for pure vs. multi-classing, it's a personal call in all cases. As a player who hates single class I can say that I will continue to miss out on some of the "best of the best" enhancements, spells, and other things that come with pure class. I am interested in those things, don't get me wrong, but I also don't want to (IMO) throw away 16 perfectly good levels on just pure fighter (for example.) I would say that the things that are introduced would have to be stellar and really, really, really hard to resist for me to make another pure class character again (deleted a 14 cleric just because he was single class.)

llevenbaxx
11-15-2007, 07:56 AM
I was not meaning XP penalties, but the Multi Classing penalties in PnP. For example a Paladin who levels up in another class loses his aura and LoH and any Faith-based stuffs, or a Cleric who loses his spellcasting until he takes another level of Cleric, or Barbarians losing their rage & fast movement... things along those lines.



I guess the Barbarian Power Critical doesn't count as an Enhancement?

But seriously, my point is that PnP always encouraged Pure Classes, and with the direction of DDO right now, there is virtually no incentive for many of the melee-type classes to stay Pure... and that is a concern.

PnP 2nd addition always encouraged pureclass. 3.5 D&D encouraged you to do w/e you wanted. Why do you think they had all kinds of way to MC completely free of penalty. Favored classes for the races, dual classes etc. There wold be too much confusion for non-D&D players to try and jam all that into an MMO. You can MC a paladin too, you just have to take the levels of w/e you want before you take any paly levels then do the roleplaying to get into a faith and be appropriate alignment. I honestly dont ever remember reading how a cleric loses his spell casting ability if he takes levels in another class, is that 3.5? Same with barbarians losing their rage ability...

3.5 D&D never... ever encouraged pureclass over MC. They just give some guildlines you have to do it by, mostly for roleplaying reasons. Like an above poster stated, its near impossible to gimp a pureclassed character and there is some risk in MC. Im guessing they will add level 20 enhancements to classes that will be nice to have, Im just hoping they put some real thought into them and not grossly overpower them(ala enhancement system #1).

I have pureclass and multiclass - melee AND caster characters. None of them are gimp, none of them are under or overpowered, they all do exactly what I made them to do. Anyone can do the same.

Sorry I just fully disagree that pureclass characters are in such a sorry state. You have to build them to what you want them to accomplish within reason. I will agree that some classes are slightly behind the power curve due to enhancements but this can be fixed with some very minor adds. Jus my $19.95

GlassCannon
11-15-2007, 08:12 AM
Bleh. We might as well be playing WoW with all the numbercrunchers and powergrinders out there.

I'm staying behind pure classes all the way through Epics. I will make some Prestiges, but my pures will not be rerolled, or defiled.

MysticTheurge
11-15-2007, 08:17 AM
Im guessing they will add level 20 enhancements to classes that will be nice to have, Im just hoping they put some real thought into them and not grossly overpower them(ala enhancement system #1).

Hmm. Capstone enhancements could be pretty cool.

nbhs275
11-15-2007, 08:34 AM
Staying pure on : Clerics, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues, bards, wizards, sorcerers, and fighters.

Its just people like silly builds that "gain" alittle by sacrificing ALOT.

Splashing is close enough to pure for most classes, like a 2 level splash of rogue in a fighter or paladin build. Or a splash of wizard on a ranger. But for a barbarian, they become much weaker if you splash anything into them, as do bards and sorcerers.

The 10/2/2 bards and sorcerers out there give up all the top tier abilities for evasion, and often very little else. Im not going to say these builds are horrible, but that the sum of their parts is still less then the abilties of the pure class version.

But overall, it all works out. The prestige class enhancments may just open up these basic rules, depending on what is in them. Maybe the rangers arcane archer will get something very nice, like spells on arrows(using up a wand to do it or something like that).

OR maybe the tempest will gain a large dodge bonus to TWF when he is moving.

We don't know what we are getting in the future, so to plan around the unknown doesnt make much sense.

nbhs275
11-15-2007, 08:39 AM
PnP 2nd addition always encouraged pureclass. 3.5 D&D encouraged you to do w/e you wanted. Why do you think they had all kinds of way to MC completely free of penalty. Favored classes for the races, dual classes etc. There wold be too much confusion for non-D&D players to try and jam all that into an MMO. You can MC a paladin too, you just have to take the levels of w/e you want before you take any paly levels then do the roleplaying to get into a faith and be appropriate alignment. I honestly dont ever remember reading how a cleric loses his spell casting ability if he takes levels in another class, is that 3.5? Same with barbarians losing their rage ability...

3.5 D&D never... ever encouraged pureclass over MC. They just give some guildlines you have to do it by, mostly for roleplaying reasons. Like an above poster stated, its near impossible to gimp a pureclassed character and there is some risk in MC. Im guessing they will add level 20 enhancements to classes that will be nice to have, Im just hoping they put some real thought into them and not grossly overpower them(ala enhancement system #1).

I have pureclass and multiclass - melee AND caster characters. None of them are gimp, none of them are under or overpowered, they all do exactly what I made them to do. Anyone can do the same.

Sorry I just fully disagree that pureclass characters are in such a sorry state. You have to build them to what you want them to accomplish within reason. I will agree that some classes are slightly behind the power curve due to enhancements but this can be fixed with some very minor adds. Jus my $19.95

Clerics could lose their spells if their god dies, or if they lose the faith(ie change alignments radically) and a barbarian loses his rage if he becomes lawful. But monk can become choatic and maintains the monk abilities he had up to that point.

MC in 3.5 Became the rulemonger and munchkin heaven. Nothing like having 9th lvl arcane, 9th level divine, and 6th lvl bard abilities. Or getting a 25 HD dragon as your halflings mount.

Taerdra
11-15-2007, 08:40 AM
My take on all the pure class vs. MC stuff:

1) DDO has actually done a good job giving people reasons to stay pure, much more than PnP under 3.5. In PnP, while there are pure class builds that are quite effective, I think it is safe to say that a MC built to the same purpose will just about always be more effective.
2) DDO enhancements are a limited -- albeit very limited -- implementation of prestige classes. The idea that a lvl 14 Barb with Power Rage 4 is not the equivalent of a multi-classed Barb with some mix of prestige classes is actually incorrect.
3) The issue is that not all DDO enhancements are created equal. Clearly, from a min/maxer POV, there are certain sets that are more effective than others even after you exclude the fact that some synergies "naturally" lead you to default to certain combinations.
4) XP penalties are a bad idea IMO. I don't want to run more of the same old quests to make up for my XP penalty.

That said, I think the enhancements for Rangers and Paladins need to be reevaluated and improved while all races should be brought up to the same "power" as dwarves.

llevenbaxx
11-15-2007, 08:58 AM
Clerics could lose their spells if their god dies, or if they lose the faith(ie change alignments radically) and a barbarian loses his rage if he becomes lawful. But monk can become choatic and maintains the monk abilities he had up to that point.

MC in 3.5 Became the rulemonger and munchkin heaven. Nothing like having 9th lvl arcane, 9th level divine, and 6th lvl bard abilities. Or getting a 25 HD dragon as your halflings mount.

Discussion is in regards to MC though. I know there are ways for those things to happen but they have nothing specifically to do with MCing aside from paly and monk. Even those have go arounds in PnP.

Just read the OP and replied, many things had been said.

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-15-2007, 09:15 AM
Ok, I will admit that most of my PnP experience was back with D&D 2.0, where PureClass was heavily "encouraged" (and I thought that even 3.x had some class abilities/spell casting/etc that were lost if you left your class, such as Paladin, or the fact that a Cleric can cast spells while wielding an edged weapon, etc)... but my point is that the DDO implementation, especially due to the Enhancement System, will force most, if not all, characters into Multi Classing. The Diminishing Returns and exorbitant costs of the Enhancements, unless completely new Enhancements are added at high-levels for each class, will completely discourage any reason to continue pure. Even the Casters, will eventually look to multiclass for the last few levels, as they will no longer gain new spell levels (but they will gain a few new spell slots), thus giving no reason for Pure Classes. I am not saying or implying that I am a "purist" for the classes, as most of my characters are Multi Classed themselves... but the point is that the current direction of the game is looking like it will basically force almost every class into having to multi class, or else become sub-par.

I am not espousing one way over another, but I am trying to say that there is a growing imbalance within the system, as it stands. I think that there should be good rewards or reasons to stay Pure Classed over Multi-Classing, in order to make it an actual merit-based decision, instead of a "purist mentality" vs. the rewards of multi-classing. The main point is there is really no benefit to staying Pure Class, and every benefit to Multi-Classing. Maybe I'm totally off-base here and no one really agrees that this is a problem... I dunno... I was just trying to voice a concern.

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-15-2007, 09:29 AM
My take on all the pure class vs. MC stuff:

1) DDO has actually done a good job giving people reasons to stay pure, much more than PnP under 3.5. In PnP, while there are pure class builds that are quite effective, I think it is safe to say that a MC built to the same purpose will just about always be more effective.
2) DDO enhancements are a limited -- albeit very limited -- implementation of prestige classes. The idea that a lvl 14 Barb with Power Rage 4 is not the equivalent of a multi-classed Barb with some mix of prestige classes is actually incorrect.
3) The issue is that not all DDO enhancements are created equal. Clearly, from a min/maxer POV, there are certain sets that are more effective than others even after you exclude the fact that some synergies "naturally" lead you to default to certain combinations.
4) XP penalties are a bad idea IMO. I don't want to run more of the same old quests to make up for my XP penalty.

That said, I think the enhancements for Rangers and Paladins need to be reevaluated and improved while all races should be brought up to the same "power" as dwarves.

I think your last point is a VERY valid one... Rangers and Paladins have really gotten the "shaft" when it comes to Enhancements, and Dwarves are still so uber-over-powered compared to the other races. Yes, Humans get their HV, Bonus Feat, and Extra Skill Point, but that is still nothing compared to Racial Tactics, Armor Mastery, Toughness, and the Dwarven +vs Spells. I agree fully that the Racial Enhancements are completely imbalanced, and need to be revised, as the Dwarf overpowers all, and this is pretty much agreed universally. As for the Classes, I pretty much stopped playing my ranger after mod 3.3 in disgust over the Enhancement options... everything is so slanted vs. FE's, and nothing much else. Ok, I can be Super-Duper-Uber vs. my FE, but what about all the other mobs in the game? Where is the +Archery Enhancements, or +TWF, or something that is useful in all circumstances, like Fighters and Barbs get? And Paladins, while not quite as bad, still isn't great... Paladins get all the Defensive Feats (Bulwark, Resistance, LoH, etc), but other than Extra Smite Evil, where is the Offense? I know there needs to be a balance in Paladin vs. Fighter but there need to be some Offensive-Enhancements for the Paladin?

We know that Rangers are finally getting some "Specialty Enhancements" a.k.a. mini-PrC's, and they need it... but so do Paladins. And please don't tell me that the Silver Flame and Soverign Host are supposed to be it for the Paladin... Come on, +1 To Hit with a Longsword or a Longbow? Let's be real, the Soverign Host Faith is for Elven Paladins (as they get the Racial bonus to Longswords too), and how many Bow-wielding Paladins have you ever seen? Now the Tier-2 of these have some cool effects, but what are they, once every 20 minutes? that is not at all equal to the Rogue Specialties like WotM, or the Bard's Spellsinger/Warchanter/Virtuoso. Each of the other "Specialty Enhancements" have centered around powering up the core abilities of the class: Rogue Skills or Sneak Attacks, Bard Casting/Buffs/Songs, but the Paladin gets +1 to hit on one of 2 weapons, and a once-every-20-minute clicky, and these are shared with Clerics?

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-15-2007, 03:13 PM
Sigh,

I guess no one really cares about Pure Classes anymore. :(

MysticTheurge
11-15-2007, 03:20 PM
Sigh,

I guess no one really cares about Pure Classes anymore. :(

Not for about two, soon to be three, major revisions of the D&D rules.

At some point, someone realized that all those annoying restrictions weren't really conducive to fun gameplay.

I still have trouble figuring out why so many DDO players seem to have such a big hang up about it. Play what you want. Let other people play what they want.

Yaga_Nub
11-15-2007, 03:27 PM
Not for about two, soon to be three, major revisions of the D&D rules.

At some point, someone realized that all those annoying restrictions weren't really conducive to fun gameplay.

I still have trouble figuring out why so many DDO players seem to have such a big hang up about it. Play what you want. Let other people play what they want.

I want to play a young gold dragon bard and I want my instrument to be the size of a small house.

I'd be able to make my own pyrotechnic show to start off each performance!

MysticTheurge
11-15-2007, 03:27 PM
I want to play a young gold dragon bard and I want my instrument to be the size of a small house.

I'd be able to make my own pyrotechnic show to start off each performance!

And you know what. D&D 3.5 lets you do this. If you and your DM and your whole group want to.

It just sets the rules for what doing it involves.

Dwolf
11-15-2007, 03:54 PM
Granted that we don't really know what new Feats and Enhancements are coming in Mod 6 yet, but we know a little bit...


2)Rangers: After either Ranger 11, 13, 15 (Rng 11 for the Combat Feats: PS, IPS, GTWF; Ranger 13 for the highest-level FE Enhancements; Ranger 15 for Level 4 Spells and the 4th FE), there is little reason left to continue Ranger. The Ranger’s Class ability/feat progression show Hide in Plain Sight @ 17 (which, I can’t see how could actually work in DDO, as hide/sneak will not lose agro), and a 5th FE @ 20. There are no other Combat Feats auto-granted per the SRD, nor are there any higher-level spells for Rangers, so there is little reason to continue Ranger. Enhancement wise, the Ranger’s Enhancements are not as expensive as the Fighter or Paladin’s, but have diminishing returns (5AP for an additional +1 To Hit or Damage vs. FE)



Here's a thought. Rangers with hide in plain sight can range to their heart's content without drawing aggro - or give them a really substantial reduction on the aggro they draw. From the mob's point of view it would be like they're getting hit out of no where, but since they're dealing with opponents they can see they generally don't have time to figure out what's going on.

You could also allow for an always - on concealment bonus with its 20% miss chance. This would be like always being blurred. Add enhancements that allow that always-on concealment to scale up, and that would be a very attractive reason to try for your level 17 ranger.

I admit to not having taken the time to really think it all through so maybe there are flaws there - on the other hand maybe there's the kernal of something ultimately useable too.

Taerdra
11-15-2007, 04:05 PM
Sigh,

I guess no one really cares about Pure Classes anymore. :(

Because of the enhancement system, I would argue there are no "pure" builds in DDO. Calling them "pure" is a misnomer of the DDO system.

nbhs275
11-15-2007, 07:26 PM
I want to play a young gold dragon bard and I want my instrument to be the size of a small house.

I'd be able to make my own pyrotechnic show to start off each performance!

Though after HD and ECL you only get one level of bard. WOOHOO! I played with a guy who did that kind of stuff, so he never did more then look cool and swing a sword. While everyone else got cool feats and spells to play around with.

Kalanth
11-15-2007, 09:32 PM
Clerics could lose their spells if their god dies, or if they lose the faith(ie change alignments radically) and a barbarian loses his rage if he becomes lawful. But monk can become choatic and maintains the monk abilities he had up to that point.

MC in 3.5 Became the rulemonger and munchkin heaven. Nothing like having 9th lvl arcane, 9th level divine, and 6th lvl bard abilities. Or getting a 25 HD dragon as your halflings mount.

Ah, but the Cleric loosing their spells was given a bit of a twist in Eberron. It was stated in the Eberron Campaign Setting that a cleric does not need a god, nor even faith, to have access to Cleric spells. A cleric can be almost like a generalist wizard in that sense, and be able to pick any domains. I would have to crack open the book for more specifics, but Eberron is great at making sure all you knew and loved before got a heavy coat of grey paint slapped on it. :)

Lorien_the_First_One
11-15-2007, 09:44 PM
PnP 2nd addition always encouraged pureclass. 3.5 D&D encouraged you to do w/e you wanted.

AD&D made multiclassing very restrictive. Funny how things have shifted....

Lorien_the_First_One
11-15-2007, 09:52 PM
Ah, but the Cleric loosing their spells was given a bit of a twist in Eberron. It was stated in the Eberron Campaign Setting that a cleric does not need a god, nor even faith, to have access to Cleric spells. A cleric can be almost like a generalist wizard in that sense, and be able to pick any domains. I would have to crack open the book for more specifics, but Eberron is great at making sure all you knew and loved before got a heavy coat of grey paint slapped on it. :)

That's pre eberon, its in the 3.0 Core rules.

And I don't recall the need to pick a specific god in the first D&D editions either.

nbhs275
11-15-2007, 11:10 PM
That's pre eberon, its in the 3.0 Core rules.

And I don't recall the need to pick a specific god in the first D&D editions either.

in 3.0 and 3.5, you could simply align yourself with one of the radical alignments, LG, LE, CG, CE, and TN too i believe. Though it restricts your domains.

Ine ebberon the rule isnt that you dont need a patron, but that you dont have to stay within one alignment range. In a normal 3.5 game you needed to be either LN, LG, or NG to be the follower of a lawful good god.

But in ebberon, you could be CE and be a cleric of a LG god.

Emili
11-16-2007, 01:03 AM
Because of the enhancement system, I would argue there are no "pure" builds in DDO. Calling them "pure" is a misnomer of the DDO system.

Class erosion started with 3.0 rules but I agree is exhaborated with the enhancement system. I am assumming 4.0+ rules will eventually drop the term class at all. There will just be characters with feats and no true strict role to play. Most classes themselves are more front-ended with thier feats thus group reliance becomes less prevalent... since you end up with characters who can do it all themelves to a great extent.

MysticTheurge
11-16-2007, 07:17 AM
I am assumming 4.0+ rules will eventually drop the term class at all. There will just be characters with feats and no true strict role to play. Most classes themselves are more front-ended with thier feats thus group reliance becomes less prevalent... since you end up with characters who can do it all themelves to a great extent.

Actually, from what I've seen of SWSE this isn't true.

4th edition definitely has classes. Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Warlock and Warlord are all confirmed to be in the PHB.

What SWSE did differently though was give every class something at every level. Each class gets a Trait every other level and a Bonus Feat every other level. Traits are more class-specific, Feats are more general, though each class has a specific list to choose their bonus feats from.

This essentially means that "splashing" while it still might happen is a lot less beneficial that it was in the old days where things were very front-loaded. Two levels of fighter gets you a fighter trait and a fighter bonus feat, but it's not significantly better than 4 levels of fighter or 6 levels of fighter and so on.

The 4th-edition class system is looking very promising, if you ask me.

llevenbaxx
11-16-2007, 07:19 AM
AD&D made multiclassing very restrictive. Funny how things have shifted....

Like MT pointed out, its just more fun with more options.:)

Omega2K
11-16-2007, 07:59 AM
DDO is the first game that gives you the full ability to Multi-Class... Guild Wars let you do two classes... But DDO, as in D&D, allows you to mold your Character to what you enjoy to play the most. OK, OK I just remembered Never Winter Nights; they did it well too. Albeit we are currently limited to 3 Classes in DDO which made sense in the beginning with only 10 Levels. However, from the very beginning in Alpha, my main Character has been a Multi-Classed Warforged Fighter/Wizard (Eldritch Knight, Spell-sword, etc.). I have many Characters and about half of them are pure-Classed: Ranger, Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, etc.. But I also have some very powerful Characters like Dwarf Cleric 13/Fighter 1 (Battle Cleric), Drow Paladin 12/Rogue 2 (Evasion & Saves Melee), Drow Rogue 10/Ranger 4 (Combat Designed Rogue with very high Skills), etc.. In my opionion these Characters are even better than pure-Classed versions of them. So, yes, the OP seems to have discovered that, in the Endgame, Multi-Classing might be a good idea... I knew this all along. ;)

GrayOldDruid
11-16-2007, 07:59 AM
3)Implement true Multi-Classing Penalties, such as the loss of Class Abilities if another class is taken. HOWEVER, this can only be done if it is also offered along with a one-time-only full-respec of our characters to realign them to the new Multi-Classing system. I know there are concerns over full respecs, and this has been discussed in the past, including potential problems with not tracking skill points/level and tomes and such, and this would have to be worked out.

Unless there has been something implemented in D&D 3.5 that I have totally missed, there are no multi-classing penalties, except loosing out on BAB increases and not getting the Class Abilities - which are already in DDO - if you don't take Rouge 2, you don't get Evasion, even if you are level 2 and part rogue. Never heard of loosing class abilities. And now they have made multiclassing totally overpowered by adding Gestalt - you advance a level and get the 'best of each' progression and both class's abilities for that level.

I am level 8 Ranger, 3 Rogue. My BAB is 10, not 11 (Ranger 11) but still not only +8 (Rogue), so my BAB progressed +8 for my Ranger Levels and +2 (as appropriate) for my Rogue levels. My Sneak attack is not +6d6 (Rogue 11) it is +2d6 as appropriate for lvl 3 Rogue. I have only 'lost' what I would have if I had taken all Ranger levels (Ranger Evasion, a Favored Enemy and Combat Style Mastery) - but I will get them when I up my Ranger levels.

Same in PnP play. The only way I know of to 'loose' a class ability in PnP D&D is to act against your alignment or class restrictions - such as a Druid using metal armor/shield or a Paladin committing an evil act.

If I am forgetting something, let me know - I can look it up. :D

Makdar
11-16-2007, 08:46 AM
The unspoken message in the OP was that multi-classing is a bad thing somehow. Or at the very least, more pure builds should be promoted by Turbine.

I disagree. Multi-classing makes DDO more interesting and more of a thinking person's game. Ask yourself the question, if everything was pure build, would DDO be more fun? Answer is no for me.

Couple of other points:

1) If we ever get Epic levels, even more multi-classing will occur. (Why the heck would a pure level 20 fighter take 10 more levels of fighter? If your a level 20 wizard, you don't get more spells by taking 10 more levels of wizard, so why not 10 levels of something else?)

2) Prestiege classes are coming at some point from what the Devs have said. That means more multi-classing fun.

MysticTheurge
11-16-2007, 09:24 AM
1) If we ever get Epic levels, even more multi-classing will occur. (Why the heck would a pure level 20 fighter take 10 more levels of fighter? If your a level 20 wizard, you don't get more spells by taking 10 more levels of wizard, so why not 10 levels of something else?)

This is generally untrue. It's usually at epic levels that I find myself regretting having multiclassed.

jmonty
11-16-2007, 09:39 AM
how about weapons and items that are restricted by class level instead of just level?

sultro
11-16-2007, 09:40 AM
I was not meaning XP penalties, but the Multi Classing penalties in PnP. For example a Paladin who levels up in another class loses his aura and LoH and any Faith-based stuffs, or a Cleric who loses his spellcasting until he takes another level of Cleric, or Barbarians losing their rage & fast movement... things along those lines.

But seriously, my point is that PnP always encouraged Pure Classes, and with the direction of DDO right now, there is virtually no incentive for many of the melee-type classes to stay Pure... and that is a concern.


think you need to reread the pnp section on multiclassing. the only thing a paladin losses by multiclassing is his ability to gain more paladin levels. he only loses the mentioned abilities if he changes alignment.

and pnp only encourages pure classes for spellcasters and most of those are best with a prestige class, which of course its about time for the devs to start considering.

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-16-2007, 10:01 AM
The unspoken message in the OP was that multi-classing is a bad thing somehow. Or at the very least, more pure builds should be promoted by Turbine.

Actually, I didn't mean that at all, about half of my characters are multi-classed... I think the overall point is being missed. I am not saying that Pure is better or should be stuck to, or MC is better or not... the point is that the system in DDO, as it stands today, offers absolutely NO incentive to remain pure class (Not counting PrC's), and I guess I thought that is should?

The 2nd main point is that the Enhancement System has pretty much reached it's practical limit. The current Enhancement Trees offered have hit the limit of usefulness and economic feasibility, leaving even less incentive to remain pure classed (or even primarily classed into one). How many of the existing AP's out there would be worth taking a 5th level in (other than Toughness)? I know they are planning for some of the quasi-PrC "Specialty Enhancements" for a few more classes, and higher-level ones for others, but the point is that there are really no new Enhancements to look forward to for most of the classes after Level 11 (13 or 14 for some of the caster classes), which again, dilutes the classes at the high-level.

Even taking the Pure vs. Multi part of the argument out of the equation, What Enhancements are worth going for with the upcoming level cap in your primary (highest) class? Are there really any of the Class-Enhancements that would be worth taking another level in, if implemented? You you really pay 8 AP's for another +1 to your primary stat? Or 5 AP's for another +1 Trip DC or +1 Damage to your Favored Enemies... or 8 AP's for another +1 AC to your Aura? The concern is that the Enhancement System seems to have been well planned out up to Level 14, but I don't see any real viable choices post-Level 14 (again, assuming you stay in that primary class), without adding a bunch of completely new Enhancements for each of the classes that might entice them into continuing in their class.

Look at it this way, if you are a Pure 14 Ranger... you have another FE @ 15, then nothing to look forward to until Level 20, when you get another FE... so if the new Ranger PrC/Enhancements don't continue with definite benefits beyond Level 15, why would you ever continue in that class? If the Devs announced that the Tempest PrC/Enhancement started at Level 16, with an upgrade at 19 (for +1/+1 to hit and +1 AC while dual-wielding), would that be sufficient reason to stay a Ranger? Lord knows you won't want to continue with the FE Enhancements...

The point is also that many of the Racial Enhancements are reasonably priced, so that an additional level of many of them would at least be worth considering (6 AP for another +1 To Hit or Damage with Racial Weapon, or Racial Stat, or the like... expensive, but you may want to take it). The Class Enhancements just don't have the "bang-for-the-buck" when they will start at 5 or 8 AP's each, for usually +1 increases (DC's, Skills - 5 AP, Stats, Class Abilities - 8 AP)

GrayOldDruid
11-16-2007, 10:14 AM
Even taking the Pure vs. Multi part of the argument out of the equation, What Enhancements are worth going for with the upcoming level cap in your primary (highest) class? Are there really any of the Class-Enhancements that would be worth taking another level in, if implemented? You you really pay 8 AP's for another +1 to your primary stat? Or 5 AP's for another +1 Trip DC or +1 Damage to your Favored Enemies... or 8 AP's for another +1 AC to your Aura? The concern is that the Enhancement System seems to have been well planned out up to Level 14, but I don't see any real viable choices post-Level 14 (again, assuming you stay in that primary class), without adding a bunch of completely new Enhancements for each of the classes that might entice them into continuing in their class.

I agree, the enhancements are really getting to a 'not worth it' point. even the skill boost - I am not paying 6 APs for +1 anything. +2... maybe... +3 is much better for 6 APs. +1 for 1 AP, +3(total) for 2 more AP, +5(total) for 4 more AP and +8(total) for 6 more APs seems reasonable. If you raise the cost, raise the benefit. 1 for 1, 2 for 2, 2 for 3, 2 for 4, 3 for 6 is a more reasonable progression that 1 for 6. 6 AP is equal to an entire level plus one rank - all for a +1 to something???

Tanka
11-16-2007, 10:16 AM
This is generally untrue. It's usually at epic levels that I find myself regretting having multiclassed.
Agreed. Epic level feats can be quite powerful, especially those that casters get.

Shade
11-16-2007, 10:40 AM
4)Barbarians: I think Barbarian has the most to offer by continuing to stay Pure Classed, but there is some concern. The Barbarian does have Tireless Rage (no fatigue @ end or Rage) @ 17 and Mighty Rage (+8/+8 Rage) @ 20, and an additional rage/day with each, which have definite merit, but the Enhancements, with the sole exception of Barbarian’s Critical Rage series, leave a lot to be desired. Is 5 AP’s going to be worth an additional +1 STR, for a total of +5, while raging? Even if Critical Rage 3 is 6 AP’s, most Barbarians will spend it willingly, but the other Enhancements seem to be reaching the end of their usefulness. More importantly, if the Critical Rage series is NOT continued, I doubt that Tireless & Mighty Rage are going to be worth it, over a Fighter or other class splash.


Lvl16 brings barbarians: +1 rage, +1 trap sense, +1 uncanny dodge use. +1 to weak saves: will/reflex.
Plus whatever new enhancements there might be.

Splashing a couple fighter gets you
+2 fort save vs pure (worthless on a char with 35+ fort). No increase to weak saves: will/reflex.
-4 hitpoints
+2 feats + unimportant proficiencies (no good barbarians bother with heavy armor, or tower shields besides madstone)
Loss of whatever new enhancements.
Loss of tireless rage, and DR6/- at 17 (something a fighter can never get as the max item goes up to 5/-.)
Loss of mighty rage @ 20

Hardly looks worth it to me. Barbarians are mostly in the same boat with feats anyways, you pick your line : Two handed or Two weapon, you get your imprv crit and power attack.. Nothing else will have a huge impact on your character. And if your dying for more feats, you just go human and you get 1 to play with picking whatever you like without suffering the multiclass losses.

redoubt
11-16-2007, 11:00 AM
For what it's worth, the only reason you don't see more multiclassed spellcasters is that we haven't hit 17th yet.

Once we do, I suspect Caster 17/Something Else 3 will become a far more common build. Something 1/Caster the Rest is only useful in a few circumstances. The 17/3 combo will be more useful in more circumstances.

Multiclassing is part of D&D. And given that DDO has done away with the main reason not to do it (XP penalty is a huge deterrent in D&D, not that it would be a very significant obstacle in DDO), it's just going to happen.

Be glad there aren't real prestige classes yet or you'd see even fewer "pure class" characters. (In fact, I don't think I've ever played a D&D game where someone was actually planning on going "pure class." I mean, I know some people do, and to great effect, but with prestige classes out there, it's fairly rare.)


What happens at 17?

MysticTheurge
11-16-2007, 11:09 AM
The current Enhancement Trees offered have hit the limit of usefulness and economic feasibility

How many of the existing AP's out there would be worth taking a 5th level in (other than Toughness)?

What Enhancements are worth going for with the upcoming level cap in your primary (highest) class?

Are there really any of the Class-Enhancements that would be worth taking another level in, if implemented?

You you really pay 8 AP's for another +1 to your primary stat? Or 5 AP's for another +1 Trip DC or +1 Damage to your Favored Enemies... or 8 AP's for another +1 AC to your Aura?

The concern is that the Enhancement System seems to have been well planned out up to Level 14, but I don't see any real viable choices post-Level 14

The Class Enhancements just don't have the "bang-for-the-buck" when they will start at 5 or 8 AP's each

One of the points of the Enhancement Rewrite you seem to have missed is that they don't have to keep improving the same enhancement lines any more.

They can add in "high level" enhancement trees (14/16/18/20 kind of things) or the like. Hopefully we'll start to see these in Mod 6.


What happens at 17?

Casters get 9th level spells and then have 3 levels (18-20) where they don't get access to a new spell level of spells.

muffinlad
11-16-2007, 11:14 AM
One of the points of the Enhancement Rewrite you seem to have missed is that they don't have to keep improving the same enhancement lines any more.

They can add in "high level" enhancement trees (14/16/18/20 kind of things) or the like. Hopefully we'll start to see these in Mod 6.



Casters get 9th level spells and then have 3 levels (18-20) where they don't get access to a new spell level of spells.

Limited by level, and keeping the cost structure 2/4/6 seems the way to go to me, and could open the door to some improvements that pure classes need, thats for sure.


muffincow-spider of justice.

Tanka
11-16-2007, 11:26 AM
Casters get 9th level spells and then have 3 levels (18-20) where they don't get access to a new spell level of spells.
Except Sorcs, who (as usual) get their next level spells a level later than Wizards -- 9th level comes at 18 for them.

redoubt
11-16-2007, 11:27 AM
Except Sorcs, who (as usual) get their next level spells a level later than Wizards -- 9th level comes at 18 for them.

Are there level 10 spells?

Tanka
11-16-2007, 11:30 AM
Are there level 10 spells?
No.

Kalanth
11-16-2007, 11:32 AM
That's pre eberon, its in the 3.0 Core rules.

And I don't recall the need to pick a specific god in the first D&D editions either.

Is it now? I honestly have not touched 1st or 2nd edition in nearly a decade.

Makdar
11-16-2007, 12:03 PM
Agreed. Epic level feats can be quite powerful, especially those that casters get.

Take a look at those epic feats, many, will be inapplicable to DDO and only work in PnP.

Of the ones that are applicable, many don't have pre-reqs of being pure-classed to lvl 20.

I do not understand.

TYPES OF EPIC FEATS
Most epic feats are general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group. Others may be item creation feats or metamagic feats, which follow all the normal rules for such feats, except as specified in the feat’s description. In addition, some feats are defined as divine feats or as wild feats. Such feats are described below.

Even if it is a divine feat, it can still be chosen based on the fact that your character can Turn Undead. Not that he/she is level 20. Hence I do not understand Mystictheurge and your points.

Makdar
11-16-2007, 12:13 PM
This is generally untrue. It's usually at epic levels that I find myself regretting having multiclassed.

With a name like MysticTheurge, surely you know that the epic levels for the Mystic Theurge prestiege class allow a 10th level Mystic Theurge to fill out both their divine and arcane sides out to lvl 20. Thus filling out both the divine and arcane spell lists to level 20. The epic feats might be nice, but we aren't going to get an epic feat that allows us to 'break the game' so to speak. Filling out the spell lists to 20 for a mystic theurge is a far better choice then having either a pure-classed wizard or pure-classed cleric IMHO.

Mad_Bombardier
11-16-2007, 12:18 PM
I do like pure class builds and would like to see more available to them. I'm really hoping with "Way of ___ I" enhancements available at L6 and "Way of ___ II" coming for L12 (see this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1398069&postcount=10)), that we will see powerful L18 enhancements for pure (or mostly pure) classes.

Taerdra
11-16-2007, 12:20 PM
Take a look at those epic feats, many, will be inapplicable to DDO and only work in PnP.


NWN & NWN2 have proven you can implement the epic system in a computer game. Many, many feats are not applicable to DDO -- I don't see how epic feats are all that different.

Tanka
11-16-2007, 12:21 PM
NWN & NWN2 have proven you can implement the epic system in a computer game. Many, many feats are not applicable to DDO -- I don't see how epic feats are all that different.
Yup yup. Though, I do miss Dev Crit from NWN. Pity it didn't make it to the NWN2 expansion. :(

DoctorWhofan
11-16-2007, 12:27 PM
Sorry, I prefer not to splash. I have, what 2 splashed toons on two servers. My preferance. But I do agree thatthere shouldbe a incitive to stay pure, an enhancement, spell or spell-like ablity-something, for each class so when u reach the end (or near the end) of the road, you can say it was worth going pure. Even if they never do that, my Pallys will remain pure, my casters will remain pure, my rogue will remain pure, my ranger will remain pure, most of my clerics will remain pure. I have one splashed paladin/fighter and my expirament with cleric/rogue.

But that is me, telling me that I am "gimped" cuz I remain pure is telling me how to play the toon. Some people are old school and do not like the things that detract from being a class, like other classes. I am one of those people.

So, to the OP, I agree with you.

Makdar
11-16-2007, 12:31 PM
NWN & NWN2 have proven you can implement the epic system in a computer game. Many, many feats are not applicable to DDO -- I don't see how epic feats are all that different.


The Devs have said in the past that they want to give us epic levels at some point. I don't see any reason that they won't and I do think it will happen, but we're probably 2 years away from them at the very least given the rate of development we're seeing.

And there are many epic feats that are just an extension of non-epic feats of which the pre-reqs are not being level 20 in some class, but something like, can Turn Undead or has a BAB of a certain level or has greater spell focus, etc.

Thrudh
11-16-2007, 12:52 PM
Lvl16 brings barbarians: +1 rage, +1 trap sense, +1 uncanny dodge use. +1 to weak saves: will/reflex.
Plus whatever new enhancements there might be.

Splashing a couple fighter gets you
+2 fort save vs pure (worthless on a char with 35+ fort). No increase to weak saves: will/reflex.
-4 hitpoints
+2 feats + unimportant proficiencies (no good barbarians bother with heavy armor, or tower shields besides madstone)
Loss of whatever new enhancements.
Loss of tireless rage, and DR6/- at 17 (something a fighter can never get as the max item goes up to 5/-.)
Loss of mighty rage @ 20

Hardly looks worth it to me. Barbarians are mostly in the same boat with feats anyways, you pick your line : Two handed or Two weapon, you get your imprv crit and power attack.. Nothing else will have a huge impact on your character. And if your dying for more feats, you just go human and you get 1 to play with picking whatever you like without suffering the multiclass losses.

Sticking pure Barbarian to 14 is a VERY smart choice because of Critical Rage II...

You're not very creative though... I think of a LOT of fun classes to splash after 14 levels of Barbarian...

Here's one off the top of my head 14/2 Barbarian/Ranger - Take Improved Critical: Ranged at level 15... You get Rapid Fire and Bow Strength for free.. No loss of BAB. Ability to use cure wands. Using a silver bow, you crit on a 15-20 with 3x damage that uses your strength bonus.... At range (where's it much harder for them to hit you back). More reflex save. A bunch of skill points.

My multi-class barbarian/fighter/ranger kicks major ass with a silver bow... And that's without the extra crit range. A 14/2 barbarian/ranger would a lot more fun (and arguably "better") than a 16 barbarian

llevenbaxx
11-16-2007, 12:58 PM
But that is me, telling me that I am "gimped" cuz I remain pure is telling me how to play the toon. Some people are old school and do not like the things that detract from being a class, like other classes. I am one of those people.

So, to the OP, I agree with you.

I snipped the part I fully disagree with.:)

If anyone is telling you that any of your pureclass characters are gimp based simply on the fact they are pureclass, you can immediately discount their opinion, as they obviously have not a clue what they are talking about.

You can build just about any character to do just about anything you want them too(offensive paly/defensive barb). I think where alot of people get confused is when they plan/build their character to do one thing and expect them to excel in areas they did not plan/build for.

Its very difficult to gimp a pureclass character in this game though, maybe your first try character in a class but beyond that...

Cowdenicus
11-16-2007, 01:06 PM
I snipped the part I fully disagree with.:)

If anyone is telling you that any of your pureclass characters are gimp, you can immediately discount their opinion, as they obviously have not a clue what they are talking about.

You can build just about any character to do just about anything you want them too(offensive paly/defensive barb). I think where alot of people get confused is when they plan/build their character to do one thing and expect them to excel in areas they did not plan/build for.

Its very difficult to gimp a pureclass character in this game though, maybe your first try character in a class but beyond that...

I have to disagree with you. All clerics are gimp save Vanash.

llevenbaxx
11-16-2007, 01:12 PM
I have to disagree with you. All clerics are gimp save Vanash.

Yeah, thats what I meant;)

MysticTheurge
11-16-2007, 02:03 PM
Even if it is a divine feat, it can still be chosen based on the fact that your character can Turn Undead. Not that he/she is level 20. Hence I do not understand Mystictheurge and your points.

Yes, but epic levels grant bonus epic feats.

A Fighter 2/Barbarian 18 has to wait two more levels than a Barbarian 20 to start racking up epic feats. A X 10/Y10 has it even worse.

You're looking a difference between 3 feats every 10 levels to up to 6 or 8 feats every 10 levels. And epic feats are what make epic levels worth getting. Plus, given the fact that high stats are a prerequisite for many epic feats and the only way to qualify for many of them is by taking the stat-boosting epic feats, you need a lot of them to get some of the good ones. (Especially if DDO sticks by it's "Only tomes and level increases count for feat prereqs" thing.) Add in the fact that almost all epic feats can be taken multiple times and you're wanting a lot of feats as soon as possible.

As for epic feats being inapplicable to DDO, I disagree. The vast majority will be implementable. Just going over the list quickly I'd see the following being fairly easy to implement:

Additional Magic Item Space
Armor Skin
Automatic Quicken Spell [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]
Automatic Silent Spell [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]
Automatic Still Spell [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]
Bane Of Enemies [Requires 5 or more favored enemies, so Ranger 20+]
Death Of Enemies [Requires 5 or more favored enemies, so Ranger 20+]
Blinding Speed
Chaotic Rage [Requires rage 5/day, so Barbarian 16+]
Damage Reduction
Deafening Song
Hindering Song
Dexterous Fortitude [Requires Slippery Mind, so Rogue 10+]
Dexterous Will [Requires Slippery Mind, so Rogue 10+]
Energy Resistance
Epic Dodge [Requires Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll, so Rogue 13+]
Epic Fortitude
Epic Inspiration
Epic Prowess
Epic Reflexes
Epic Skill Focus
Epic Speed
Epic Spell Focus [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]
Epic Spell Penetration
Epic Spellcasting [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]
Epic Toughness
Epic Trapfinding
Epic Weapon Focus [Requires Greater Weapon Focus, so Fighter 8+]
Epic Weapon Specialization [Requires Epic Weapon Focus, so Fighter 8+]
Epic Will
Exceptional Deflection
Fast Healing
Great Charisma
Great Constitution
Great Dexterity
Great Intelligence
Great Smiting
Great Strength
Great Wisdom
Group Inspiration
Holy Strike
Ignore Material Components [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]
Improved Aura Of Courage
Improved Combat Casting
Improved Favored Enemy [Requires 5 or more favored enemies, so Ranger 20+]
Improved Heighten Spell
Improved Ki Strike [Requires Ki Strike (adamantine), so Monk 16+]
Improved Manyshot
Improved Metamagic
Improved Sneak Attack [Requires Sneak Attack +8d6, so Rogue 15+]
Improved Spell Capacity [Requires maximum level of spellcasting ability in any class, so Wiz/Sor 17+, Sor 18+, Bard 16+ or Rng/Pal 14+]
Improved Spell Resistance
Improved Stunning Fist
Improved Whirlwind Attack
Incite Rage [Requires greater rage, so Barbarian 11+]
Infinite Deflection
Inspire Excellence
Instant Reload
Keen Strike [Requires Ki Strike (adamantine), so Monk 16+]
Vorpal Strike [Requires Ki Strike (adamantine), so Monk 16+]
Lasting Inspiration
Lingering Damage [Requires Sneak Attack +8d6, so Rogue 15+]
Master Wand
Mighty Rage [Requires greater rage, so Barbarian 11+]
Multispell [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]
Music Of The Gods
Overwhelming Critical
Devastating Critical
Penetrate Damage Reduction
Perfect Health
Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting
Permanent Emanation
Planar Turning
Positive Energy Aura
Ranged Inspiration
Rapid Inspiration
Reflect Arrows
Righteous Strike
Ruinous Rage [Requires rage 5/day, so Barbarian 16+]
Self-Concealment [Requires improved evasion, so Rogue 10+]
Spectral Strike
Spell Knowledge [Requires maximum normally available arcane spell level, so Sor 18+ or Bard 16+]
Spell Stowaway [Requires caster level 12th]
Storm Of Throws
Swarm Of Arrows
Tenacious Magic
Terrifying Rage [Requires rage 5/day, so Barbarian 16+]
Thundering Rage [Requires rage 5/day, so Barbarian 16+]
Two-Weapon Rend
Uncanny Accuracy
Widen Aura Of Courage
Enhance Spell
Intensify Spell [Requires the ability to cast 9th level spells, so Clr/Wiz 17+ or Sor 18+]


With a name like MysticTheurge, surely you know that the epic levels for the Mystic Theurge prestiege class allow a 10th level Mystic Theurge to fill out both their divine and arcane sides out to lvl 20. Thus filling out both the divine and arcane spell lists to level 20. The epic feats might be nice, but we aren't going to get an epic feat that allows us to 'break the game' so to speak. Filling out the spell lists to 20 for a mystic theurge is a far better choice then having either a pure-classed wizard or pure-classed cleric IMHO.

Yes, this is probably true, but given that it looks highly unlikely we'll get real prestige classes it remains relatively inapplicable to DDO.

The aforementioned Wizard 20/Fighter 20 build would be madness. You're missing out on 5-10 epic level feats in exchange for 10 non-epic feats.

Perceval418
11-16-2007, 03:36 PM
I dont see why a sorcerer would ever do a 17/3 build. We already know what the spells are for the next mod more or less, im sure the level 18/20 spells for sorcerer will be sufficiently cool enough that most people will stay pure. And wizards will continue thier 13/1, 19/1 type builds.

I think well see alot more of the same in the level cap increases to come. People will be doing 16/2/2 Fighter/Rogue/Paladin builds, or Ranger/Fighter/Paladin, etc... Barbarians will mostly stay pure classed, maybe splashing 2 levels of fighter for the extra feats. Rogues will continue to come in all shapes, sizes and flavours.

Also what is the real difference between a "fighter" and "barbarian". The former is trained in a structured environment, the latter relies on strength and speed. So a 12/2 Barbarian/Fighter is just a barbarian that has had some official training, or comes from a clan of somewhat skilled barbarians.

A 13/1 Wizard/Rogue is a Wizard who found his knock wasnt working very well, and got tired of stepping into blades and fire in dungeons so decided to use his superior intelligence to learn how to disable the traps by hand.

A 10/2/2 Paladin/Fighter/Rogue is a paladin who has had some good training in how to use his weapons (and the rogue being taken for evasion) was also trained in how to maneuver himself better in his armor.

A 12/2 Cleric/Fighter is a cleric who has been trained to use his mace. Etc...

While i understand the philosophical idea that a cleric should always serve his deity and a paladin would never stray from his path, there are genuine roleplay ways to look at multi-class not as straying from anything, but as representing some kind of additional training which has nothing to do with the philosophical ideals of the other class.

DoctorWhofan
11-16-2007, 04:44 PM
Its very difficult to gimp a pureclass character in this game though, maybe your first try character in a class but beyond that...

Tell me about it!! There is a reason my no STR TWFingpally no longer exists!!! But she gave me Drow and she was my first. Her name was recycled.

AND COW...Bah! I know several non gimped clerics, and none of them have Vanash in their name.

Thrudh
11-17-2007, 01:24 AM
I dont see why a sorcerer would ever do a 17/3 build. We already know what the spells are for the next mod more or less, im sure the level 18/20 spells for sorcerer will be sufficiently cool enough that most people will stay pure.

9th level spells is as high as they go...

A wizard gets them at 17th level, a sorceror gets them at 18th level...

At 19th, 20th level there will be no more new spells... just the ability to have more choices of the existing spells...

So 17/3 wizard is reasonable, as is 18/2 sorceror (and as others have said, an 18/2 sorceror/paladin would be a very good combo)

Makdar
11-17-2007, 11:49 PM
Yes, but epic levels grant bonus epic feats.

Yes, this is probably true, but given that it looks highly unlikely we'll get real prestige classes it remains relatively inapplicable to DDO.



The Devs have stated before that prestiege classes are something they want to do and there exists various mobs in the game with prestiege class names. That coupled with the fact that the tech for managing divine and arcane spell lists is already in the game lead me to believe that it is something that the Devs are working towards. When will it happen? Who knows.

As for when one can choose the epic feats in the list you provided, I wasn't under the impression that one needed to be level 20 in one class to choose feats from that list. I'm no guru on the matter, all I've done is read a bit on it, but I haven't seen where there's a pre-req of being pure-classed to level 20 to choose any of those feats. All I've read is that your combined level needs to reach 21+ and that the specific pre-reqs for the feat being chosen are met. (yes, sometimes those specific pre-reqs amount to having a bunch of levels in a certain class to get obtain that pre-req, but haven't seen where it means having 20 levels in any class)

Cowdenicus
11-18-2007, 12:41 AM
AND COW...Bah! I know several non gimped clerics, and none of them have Vanash in their name.

Lies, blasphemy, it does not exist.

Emili
11-18-2007, 02:24 AM
The Devs have stated before that prestiege classes are something they want to do and there exists various mobs in the game with prestiege class names. That coupled with the fact that the tech for managing divine and arcane spell lists is already in the game lead me to believe that it is something that the Devs are working towards. When will it happen? Who knows.

As for when one can choose the epic feats in the list you provided, I wasn't under the impression that one needed to be level 20 in one class to choose feats from that list. I'm no guru on the matter, all I've done is read a bit on it, but I haven't seen where there's a pre-req of being pure-classed to level 20 to choose any of those feats. All I've read is that your combined level needs to reach 21+ and that the specific pre-reqs for the feat being chosen are met. (yes, sometimes those specific pre-reqs amount to having a bunch of levels in a certain class to get obtain that pre-req, but haven't seen where it means having 20 levels in any class)

Epic refers to class level... 21-30... a character with fighter 21 is an epic fighter whereas another character who has fighter 19/barb 2 is not into epic fighter yet. The later character cannot get an epic feat until his fighter levels reach 21. This is what MT is refering to.

Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

ie.) an Epic Barbarian you must be a Barbarian 21 level... and all epic classes are nothing more than extending that class between 21-30... it is not character level which breaches the epic feats gains bonus feats in that class level.

Epic Barbarian
Hit Die
d12

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier

Barbarian Rage
The epic barbarian gains one use of rage per day every four levels after 20th.

Trap Sense (Ex)
The epic barbarian’s bonus increases by +1 every three levels higher than 18th.

Damage Reduction (Ex)
The epic barbarian’s damage reduction increases by 1 point every three levels higher than 19th.

Bonus Feats
The epic barbarian gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic barbarian bonus feats) every four levels higher than 20th.

Epic Barbarian Bonus Feat List
Armor Skin, Chaotic Rage, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Epic Endurance, Epic Prowess, Epic Speed, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Fast Healing, Incite Rage, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Rider, Legendary Tracker, Legendary Wrestler, Mighty Rage, Overwhelming Critical, Ruinous Rage, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage.

21st Trap sense +7
22nd Damage Reduction 6/-
23rd —
24th Rage 7/day, Trap sense +8, bonus feat
25th Damage Reduction 7/-
26th —
27th Trap sense +9
28th Damage Reduction 8/-, Rage 8/day, bonus feat
29th —
30th Trap sense +10

honkuimushi
11-18-2007, 07:35 AM
Epic refers to class level... 21-30... a character with fighter 21 is an epic fighter whereas another character who has fighter 19/barb 2 is not into epic fighter yet. The later character cannot get an epic feat until his fighter levels reach 21. This is what MT is refering to.

Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

ie.) an Epic Barbarian you must be a Barbarian 21 level... and all epic classes are nothing more than extending that class between 21-30... it is not character level which breaches the epic feats it is class level.




Thats not quite right. The part in red is taken directly from the DMG. Look at the bold, underlined sction,-- character level. Any character with 21 character levels is an epic character, no matter the combination of classes used to get there. Multiclassed characters follow the same rules as single classed characters. If your charcter level is over 20, you can pick an epic feat so long as you meet the prereqs. As has been pointed out before, some of those prereqs require 20 levels in a given class. What you don't get, without 20 levels in a base class or 10 levels in a 10 level prestige class, are BONUS feats. Some of your abilities will improve after 20th level, but since most classes are front loaded, you may find that a few levels in a prestige class or another base class is more valuable to that character than levels 20+ of their primary class. You are correct that you need to reach level 20 before you reach level 21 or level 10 before you reach level 11 in a prestige class, but you can take epic feats before reaching those plateaus.

Consider this character-- Fighter1/ Wizard 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 3/ Eldritch Knight 6

When he reaches level 21 he gains a feat, which can be used to take an epic feat. Now he needs to pick a class. All of the classes will get the epic advancement to saves and attack bonus. +1/2 character levels, odd for attack and even for saves. So at level 21 he will get +1 to attack bonus(this will not increase the number of attacks he gains) and +0 to saves. At level 22, he will get +0 to attack and +1 to all saves. He can't take any more Abjurant Champion levels; he has already maxed it out and only 10 level prestige classes have epic levels. If he takes Fighter, he gets 1d10 hp and a bonus feat(whch can be used foe Epic fighter feats if he meets the prereqs.) If he takes Wizard, he gets 1d4 hp, an increase of +1 to his caster level and spells/level of an 18th level Wizard. If he takes Spellsword, he gets 1d8 hp and Channel Spell. If he Takes Eldritch Knight, he gets 1d6 hp, an increase of +1 to his caster level and spells/level of an 18th level Wizard. If he raises Fighter or Wizard to 20, he will begin to qualify for Epic bonus feats(Every 2 levels for fighter so level 22, 24, etc. and every 3 for Wizards, so level 23, 26, etc.) If he raises Eldritch Knight to 11 he will also begin to qualify for epic bonus feats(every 4 levels, so at level 14, 18 etc.) Spellsword also qualifies, but I haven't seen an official advancement.

Honestly, I would take Spellsword levels because the half caster levels and Channel Spell abilities would be better than the occasional bonus feat from Eldritch Knight and I could take more Fighter levels if I need more feats. Plus, the hp are better than anything but the fighter.

I hope this was useful to somebody. :)

MysticTheurge
11-18-2007, 09:36 AM
Sorry, apparently the part that's confusing is the bonus epic feats.

A Fighter 20/Barbarian 10 has all the abilities of a 10th level barbarian, and 11 non-epic fighter feats for his class levels. He has 7 non-epic general feats for levels 1-20. And he has 4 epic general feats from levels 21-30.

A Fighter 30 on the other hand has 11 non-epic fighter feats for his class levels, 7 non-epic general feats for levels 1-20, 4 epic general feats for levels 21-30 plus 5 more epic fighter bonus feats.

That means he could have +5 natural armor, 15/- DR, an ability that forces a fort save or die every time he criticals, +5 to hit, Energy resistance 50, 150 extra hit points, the ability to deflect ray spells, the ability to bypass 5 different types of damage reduction, the ability to throw or shoot every enemy within 30-feet, or the ability to ignore the 50% miss chance from concealment.

Or some combination of those. Over and above the Fighter 20/Barbarian 10.

So the question really becomes is DR 2/-, rage 3/day, fast movement, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense +3 worth the trade off?

Makdar
11-18-2007, 03:00 PM
Sorry, apparently the part that's confusing is the bonus epic feats.

A Fighter 20/Barbarian 10 has all the abilities of a 10th level barbarian, and 11 non-epic fighter feats for his class levels. He has 7 non-epic general feats for levels 1-20. And he has 4 epic general feats from levels 21-30.

A Fighter 30 on the other hand has 11 non-epic fighter feats for his class levels, 7 non-epic general feats for levels 1-20, 4 epic general feats for levels 21-30 plus 5 more epic fighter bonus feats.

That means he could have +5 natural armor, 15/- DR, an ability that forces a fort save or die every time he criticals, +5 to hit, Energy resistance 50, 150 extra hit points, the ability to deflect ray spells, the ability to bypass 5 different types of damage reduction, the ability to throw or shoot every enemy within 30-feet, or the ability to ignore the 50% miss chance from concealment.

Or some combination of those. Over and above the Fighter 20/Barbarian 10.

So the question really becomes is DR 2/-, rage 3/day, fast movement, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense +3 worth the trade off?

So in essence what your saying is that wizards and fighters that aren't pure-classed give up a fair amount to multi-class when epic levels roll around. It doesn't really hurt any of the other classes/multi-classes/prestiege classes at all. Gee, thank goodness I have both a pure-classed fighter and pure-classed wizard. :)

MysticTheurge
11-18-2007, 03:58 PM
So in essence what your saying is that wizards and fighters that aren't pure-classed give up a fair amount to multi-class when epic levels roll around. It doesn't really hurt any of the other classes/multi-classes/prestiege classes at all. Gee, thank goodness I have both a pure-classed fighter and pure-classed wizard. :)

Well, fighters certainly get the most bonus feats at every 2 levels, but everyone gets epic bonus feats.

Barbarians get one every 4 levels, plus increased DR every 3 levels (which stacks with that from the Epic DR feat), more rages and higher trap sense.

Bards continue to increase their caster level, get a bonus feat every 4 levels and an additional +1 to inspire courage every 6 levels.

Clerics get a bonus feat every 3 levels, along with increased spellcaster level and Turning level.

Monks get +1 AC every 5 levels, increased movement speed every 3 levels and a bonus feat every 5 levels, plus increased spell resistance, higher stunning fist and quivering palm DCs.

Paladins get increased results from Lay on Hands, more Smites and Cure Diseases, improved turning and spellcaster levels and a bonus feat every 3 levels.

Rangers get an extra favored enemy every 5 levels, increased spellcaster level and a bonus feat every 3 levels.

Rogues continue to get +1d6 sneak attack every other level, increased trap sense every 3 levels and a bonus feat every 4 levels.

Sorcerers and Wizards both get increased spellcaster level as well as a bonus feat every 3 levels.

Obitus
11-18-2007, 05:20 PM
I was thinking just the opposite about the enhancement system; at least to a point, the enhancement system in DDO provides more incentive for staying pure than you'd have otherwise.

Add to that, uncertainty. Speaking as someone who recently returned to the game after a very long break (I left right before the first level cap increase from 10), I can attest that multi-class builds take a greater risk with respect to what may or may not change with future level cap increases. At least pure-classed builds know that they'll always be poised to take the best enhancements later, whatever they may be. At least pure-classed builds know that they can always splash later when the new optimal level splits become apparent.

For instance, let's take a 12/2 Bard/Fighter Warchanter. If we assume that Superior Two-weapon Fighting will go into the game, then that build must take another two levels of Fighter before 20 if he wants to qualify for that feat (because he won't have BAB 15 before level 18). In the more immediate future, the build also won't have level 6 spells by level 16, and who knows what class enhancements he'll miss out on.

The pure Bard doesn't have that problem.

Honestly, I think that Turbine enjoys this phenomenon to some extent. What better way to keep powergamers' interest than to periodically encourage them to reroll their beloved characters? And then to make them regrind for uber bind-on-acquire loot? ;)

And I think that the MC builds are probably rerolled waaaay more often than are pure-class builds. As someone else said, it's much harder to gimp a pure-class build; my only addition to that excellent observation is that pure-class builds are also less likely to be forcibly gimped by changes to the game.

As far as Paladins and Fighters go, yeah, they're very splashable classes, but that's true in PnP, too. Fighter is the ultimate generic class, and Paladins for whatever reason are extremely front-loaded. But can anyone honestly argue that the typical 2 or 3-level Paladin splash is any less compelling in DDO than it would be otherwise? I certainly agree that certain Paladin enhancements are underwhelming and/or overpriced (and hopefully that will be changed), but the Bulwark enhancements and the Divine Righteousness enhancements are very compelling if you're trying to build a tank (just as a for instance). And who doesn't like extra Lay on Hands?

Our theoretical tank builder is suddenly, in DDO, torn between a 3-level splash and a 7 or 11-level splash. And those Paladin-level investments have to be weighed against the benefit of higher-level Fighter enhancements.

The enhancement system certainly makes multi-classing more complicated, if nothing else. :)

Claver
11-20-2007, 10:38 PM
As a matter of fact, the only time I've multi-classed is when I accidentally took a level of cleric on a ranger because I'd had too many beers before leveling up and didn't realize who I was talking to.

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Don't level up your characters if you've been drinking. Leveling is for the sober.

LOL. Words to live by!!!