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Fallout
11-13-2007, 11:01 AM
Well Turbine had a poll of what people would pay. Most of it useless. Revisiting the respec (most recently in Kargon's thread), here's services people would actually pay.

-Complete Character Respec (keep favor, tome, items)

Drop to XP 0, L1. Complete as in complete. Literally start from character building screen, select race, apperance, class, name and build it. Then apply the tomes you have eaten to the new character. Then your character merrily start his/her new life again, but has the items you worked so hard to retain.

Why: In my case, I have a 28pt original paladin. Almost max favor. Many tomes eaten. Many raid items. But since it was a 28 pt build and selected what seemed to be usefull skills turns out to be useless, I since then made a 32 pt paladin. What to do with the original character? Its redundent. But at same time have so much invested. So what to do?

I would pay for a service, to rebuild the character to something new. A fresh start. Win-Win. Not only Turbine gets money, gives me something to do to as leveling up new character, two months to get to L14. It makes me happy because still have the favor and the items.

Roleplaying: If it bothers a few people with that concept, think of it as reincarnation after offering a sacrifice or something.

For people who just want to change certain things, a lesser service:

-Skill Respec

Allow to adjust skills. If eaten Int tome, give the extra skill points.

-Attribute Respec

Allow to adjust attributes.

-Unbound 1 item

Allow a token to unbound 1 item.

Why: You may have a retired character that has a usefull raid item you want to transfer to active characters. Or on the 20th raid run, you get a choice of a +2 tome you already used. And since its bound, its useless.

This one will be fun. Turbine can earn lots of money from this. Say a plat farmer wants to sell the tome, they get favor, get the tome, pay Turbine the token fee, then sell it.

Bottom line is, there's potential for Turbine to make money, and allow the customers to be happy in changing their characters.

Yaga_Nub
11-13-2007, 11:08 AM
I'd love to see this.

/signed.

Strakeln
11-13-2007, 11:15 AM
Interesting ideas.

I think what we're seeing (with all of the respec/re-roll threads as of late) is that there is a general consensus that we need to have a way to adapt to game changes. At minimum, this means feat respec (check), spell respec (check), enhancement respec (check), and skill respec (MIA). Additional respec-like capabilities that would be really nice would include being able to respec a 28-pt character to a 32-pt... if there were a full respec, I would expect this to be standard.

The 28 to 32 point conversion is important, IMO. A lot of people say no, but here's the thing... when a lot of us started our first few characters, the concept of favor did not exist. So we spent a lot of time leveling and looting and farming to equip our 28 point characters. Were you to start fresh today, chances are you would roll a temporary character, get it to 400 favor, then roll a Drow, get it to 1750, then start on your alts. Saying those 4 stat points (more correctly, 4 "build" points) are of no consequence is just silly. I know people who couldn't stand the 1750 grind, and as a result make Drow after Drow after Drow character. Even if it didn't make a difference (which it *does*), feeling gimped is never fun... knowing you're always 4 build points behind the curve sucks.

ArkoHighStar
11-13-2007, 11:46 AM
If I were paying for this as a premium service I would expect to have all my xp, and level up through a trainer, I could see the free version bringing you back to zero xp

Yaga_Nub
11-13-2007, 12:08 PM
If I were paying for this as a premium service I would expect to have all my xp, and level up through a trainer, I could see the free version bringing you back to zero xp

I didn't notice any mention of a free version but I think that it could be a workable option.

If I was allowed to reset my xp to zero, my skill points to zero, lose all tome bonuses, but keep all my items, I would happily do so as long as I could go get my favor tome again by talking to the appropriate person.

I don't mind leveling new characters and the chance to fix and/or enhance an old friend like my 28 point build would be fun.

Taerdra
11-13-2007, 12:12 PM
Signed.

DaveyCrockett
11-13-2007, 01:36 PM
Don't speak Kargon? Or just wanted your own thread about the same subject?

Either way, again - I like the idea, but noone would like the implementation (it would never go the way we want it, imo)

Oreg
11-13-2007, 02:33 PM
One thing has always annoyed me. I have played since beta and have deleted probably 8 builds and have 8 more in some degree of activity now. The highest one has about 1300 favor and I have no desire to favor run him to 1750 to be able to open 32 pt builds. I have no problem keeping it at 1750 for the tome but for goodness sakes let me roll a 32 point build.

adrinor
11-13-2007, 04:07 PM
I like this idea

Kargon
11-13-2007, 06:15 PM
Don't speak Kargon? Or just wanted your own thread about the same subject?

Thread Davey talkaming about are here. Maybe Kargon should summamarize all of the suggested methods of providing reroll in the OP or somemathing...

Fallout
11-13-2007, 06:30 PM
Couple of trains of thoughts here.

For the 'free' reroll such as Kargon's thread, it maybe be a limited reroll that you can't change some things. And it will be a cost such as losing favor like he suggested.

I'm thinking for those who want more and minus some of the big penalties, can pay for it. For example I won't erase 2475 favor on my original paladin for a reroll. Favor grind is absolutely mind numbing after doing it for the X number of time. So a 'paid' version of the reroll save people from that misery and fill the coffers of Turbine.

So implementing various paid services it will generate income. Free is nice, but ultimately having something thats revenue generating is their focus.

I can tell you alot of peope would pay (for a reasonable fee) to make changes to their characters.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-13-2007, 07:26 PM
What's the point of a second thread on the same subject as Kargons?

Yaga_Nub
11-13-2007, 11:11 PM
What's the point of a second thread on the same subject as Kargons?

Maybe he never saw Kargon's post? I know I never did.

And for the most part I always skip over Kargon's posts even when I do see them because I finally got weary of Kargon speak about a year ago.

Fallout
11-13-2007, 11:58 PM
Companies want to hear how to make more money. People won't pay money to 'change their appearance'. You wear armor and helmet. All same race body shapes are the same. The moves are the same. Its pointless.

What people care about are the stats and items. Instead of polling on useless things, if they want people to use 'premium' services, then offer something usefull.

Implementing all these features for 'free' isn't a high priority as cranking new content. If it helps give that additional incentive so be it. I've old characters sitting in the shelf for a year and a half. Waiting for them to imlement a 'free' reroll, well won't hold my breath.

Kargon
11-14-2007, 12:34 AM
Maybe he never saw Kargon's post? I know I never did.

And for the most part I always skip over Kargon's posts even when I do see them because I finally got weary of Kargon speak about a year ago.

Kargon even translamated (translated) the originamal (original) post! are most friendly post evermer (ever)!

CDevil
11-14-2007, 06:10 AM
Companies want to hear how to make more money. People won't pay money to 'change their appearance'. You wear armor and helmet. All same race body shapes are the same. The moves are the same. Its pointless.

What people care about are the stats and items. Instead of polling on useless things, if they want people to use 'premium' services, then offer something usefull.


Since you mention it, here's something to think about:
When the game was being developed, the Devs joked that they should put in a system and charge a buck a roll for people to randomly roll chrarcter stats. While I think $1 a roll might turn a lot of people off to the idea, I think the Devs should give this a second round of SERIOUS thought. I wouldn't mind shelling out a couple of bucks for an opportunity to get some uber stat rolls, and I'm sure there's a lot of others out there who wouldn't mind either.
For sake of argument, let's say it would be too difficult to add a random roll system to the game on top of the point system already in place. Charge a couple of bucks for a higher point character build and make it a seperate "special" slot in a player's account, so they could erase and rebuild if they wanted. Keep it low enough so it's not a "haves vs. have-nots" issue, and only allow say one or two "high point" character slots per account. It wouldn't matter if only 10% of the players bought in, you'd still be talking about a LOT of money coming in that could be used to expand the game.

Anyhow, just a thought.

Yaga_Nub
11-14-2007, 06:15 AM
Kargon even translamated (translated) the originamal (original) post! are most friendly post evermer (ever)!

I just went back and read it K. Very good post. Look for a post in the general section about an idea I have for you.

Fallout
11-14-2007, 10:16 AM
Since you mention it, here's something to think about:
When the game was being developed, the Devs joked that they should put in a system and charge a buck a roll for people to randomly roll chrarcter stats. While I think $1 a roll might turn a lot of people off to the idea, I think the Devs should give this a second round of SERIOUS thought. I wouldn't mind shelling out a couple of bucks for an opportunity to get some uber stat rolls, and I'm sure there's a lot of others out there who wouldn't mind either.
For sake of argument, let's say it would be too difficult to add a random roll system to the game on top of the point system already in place. Charge a couple of bucks for a higher point character build and make it a seperate "special" slot in a player's account, so they could erase and rebuild if they wanted. Keep it low enough so it's not a "haves vs. have-nots" issue, and only allow say one or two "high point" character slots per account. It wouldn't matter if only 10% of the players bought in, you'd still be talking about a LOT of money coming in that could be used to expand the game.

Anyhow, just a thought.


I don't play PnP, but I remeber I can spend a long time on the DnD computer games rolling for that right combination of stats. Building chars was one of the more fun part of DnD.

They have to look at the demographics. This is not the WOW crowd. Most of us are older. Shelling a reasonable amount for a good service, people will use it. Since content is exhausted quickly, people spend time tweaking their characters. There is alot of potential for Turbine to make some money. They just have to balance the freebie char changes and paid char changes.

Fallout
11-15-2007, 10:28 AM
I still see people try to balance reroll and penalties. Thats perfect where premium services come in.

Free Reroll: Require special shard (rare, maybe raid loot) and time limit (one or two month timer etc). Keep same race, class, apperance, name, tomes, items. Lose XP and Favor.

Premium Service: Can change anyting and everything while keeping all favor, tomes, items etc. But start from XP0 ONLY if changing classes. So people learn how to play the new class also extends play.

Essentially Free changes have restrictions.
Premium services remove the restrictions for the luxury.

Why this promotes play:

People don't mind leveling up characters, its the favor, tomes and bound items that people do not want to give up. This service allows me to pull a retired character, remake him as something else, and try him out. In my case have two paladins, one a 28 pt build, one a newer 32 pt build. So I don't play my 28 pt build that much anymore because. If there's a reroll, I can build a new char. This time already have the items and tomes and favor. Later, I'll go try a different class and build again.

The twinking arguement is invalid because people already do that now. This does not change that.

DDO is losing more subscribers then they are gaining. Maybe the population is somewhat stable now, but it means revenue will be at that level. Offering services for different perks is a great way to make more money from existing base. The demographics are older, and can shell out a few bucks here and there for the time investment in their characters.

Yshkabibble
11-15-2007, 11:23 AM
This is a slippery slope. I am not a fan of paying extra for something that gets around fundamental game conventions that affect play. Changing a name or server, no problem. I can see something like this starting to creep into other things... 3.99 gets you an adtional feat, 9.99 gets you a tome of your choice etc. Premium services should, in my opionion be kept out of these areas. Plat farmers are already bad enough without adding Turbine to the list. What happens if you start to implement this is that it becomes a crutch for turbine.

I can see the turbine marketing meetings now: We aren't attracting new players so lets try to get the most out of our loyal players. Turn down the drop rate on the raid loot and lets put in the option for players to buy some tomes for 3.99 a piece." Next month subcriptions don't drop and they pulled in an extra 100k so they decide to keep going: "That worked well, lets allow folks to pay for exp, we won't call it power leveling but we will just charge folks and let them buy up their levels. Heck if they want we will just charge a flat 149.99 and they can start their char at the level cap. While we are at it they will need play too so we will sell them plat for 7.99 per 100k. Might as well put the farmers out of business by doing it ourselves" Once a company becomes dependent on revenue streams like this there is no turning back.

moorewr
11-15-2007, 11:31 AM
This is a slipper slope. I am not a fan of paying extra for something that gets around fundamental game conventions that affect play. Changing a name or server, no problem. I can see something like this starting to creep into other things... 3.99 gets you an adtional feat, 9.99 gets you a tome of your choice etc. Premium services should, in my opionion be kept out of these areas. Plat farmers are already bad enough without adding Turbine to the list.

Agreed. I'm dead-set against making more $ = more ueber. I'm ok with a free or pay re-roll, but nothign that makes your character directly "better" than a character from a player paying the subscription.

I HATE games on the free-play/pay-for-updates model where the "Elite" (paying customers) automatically have better gear and stats than the 'free' (as in you paid $45 for the game) players. I'm very glad that model is not in use by Turbine.

Fallout
11-15-2007, 11:49 AM
I agree it can be a slippery slope, and I am against purchasing plat, XP, tomes or equipment as a fee.
But at same time I have several characters retired, but I wont delete because of the investment already made.
So they're essentially L14 mules.

That also is unacceptable for a system like DnD that can't fix out characters. If its a simple game you choose, class, race then just level up, nothing much to adjust. But this system, there's a myriad of attirbutes, stats, feats, enhacement, then on top of that multi-classing. Its very easy to make mistakes. To top it off, game rules change, but character unable to change. If you want to **** of gamers, this system does it. Now the lack of content and static dungeons, people get bored.

We need rerolling. But some people do not want to lose favor etc. So a fee based system is the in-between. Sure free is good, but if revenue is just declining, how much resources do you think they'll put into it? Their premium services right now are a joke, and if the poll they had was any indication, it will continue to be a joke. For people to use it, it has to be usefull.

Yshkabibble
11-16-2007, 08:09 AM
You have won me over. Being able to take the time that you have invested and change the character would be a good feature. It would not make you better than any other chars, just switch things around a bit. I can see that. I think there is a game out now, maybe Tabula Rasa, that has a branching feature where at certain points in your characters progression a copy of your character is saved, same last name different first name, and you can use thatclone to go in a different career direction without having to start from scratch. Thats a neat feature.

But then again, if that was that was the case wouldn't we start to miss Tangleroot? hehe.

Fallout
11-20-2007, 09:24 PM
I was looking at some chars sitting on the shelf collecting dust. Was going to play them again, but the thought of grinding all the favor wasn't worth it, so back to the shelf they go.

I wouldn't mind dropping to XP0, but MUST keep items, tomes and favor. Excellent premium service option. 'Free' reroll would lose tomes and favor, thats the cost of free.

philo
11-21-2007, 08:51 AM
While i can see how many people would like this idea, I have to play devils advocate. Everyone else rerolls when you get your 32 point build. Recollecting gear on a new character is part of playing the game. I run out of things to do fast enough without having my brand new character equipped with tomes/raid loot I have attained on another character. It is supposed to be fun to acquire those items, its part of playing the game. Seems to me people are asking for an easy button. They seem to be asking to equip 32 point characters with gear attained on a 28 point build.

I can also see how this can be exploited. My wizard happens to get tons of raid loot he cant use. That raid loot would be great for a melee character. A wizard has 8 pairs of madstone boots from when it was common to solo reaver and 4 seals of earth and 3 jerkys and some TS goggles etc when it was common to duo queen. I may as well reroll him as a melee character to make use of that raid loot. Since said wizard is only a 28 point build anyway and I have rerolled that character like everyone else when they attain the 32 point build its no sweat off my back.

The thing is part of attaining the 32 point build also means you roll a new 32 point character and acquire gear for that 32 point character. It keeps people playing, gives them something else to attain. Getting all your bound items for free is a poor idea.

Not that I ever think turbine would ever do what has been suggested. Turbine realizes rerolling a 32 point build and acquiring new gear keeps people playing and paying. The amount of money they would receive from this as a premium service would be tiny compared to what they would lose because of the canceled accounts when every 32 point build has multiple of every raid loot item they could possibly want. I do expect 35 point builds someday...maybe by lvl 20 and 5k favor:D

Fallout
11-21-2007, 10:12 AM
While i can see how many people would like this idea, I have to play devils advocate. Everyone else rerolls when you get your 32 point build. Recollecting gear on a new character is part of playing the game. I run out of things to do fast enough without having my brand new character equipped with tomes/raid loot I have attained on another character. It is supposed to be fun to acquire those items, its part of playing the game. Seems to me people are asking for an easy button. They seem to be asking to equip 32 point characters with gear attained on a 28 point build.

I can also see how this can be exploited. My wizard happens to get tons of raid loot he cant use. That raid loot would be great for a melee character. A wizard has 8 pairs of madstone boots from when it was common to solo reaver and 4 seals of earth and 3 jerkys and some TS goggles etc when it was common to duo queen.


I do see your points. I'll address them from my point of view:

> I run out of things to do fast enough without having my brand new character equipped with tomes/raid loot I have attained on another character

-Normally I would agree with you. But currently with static dungeons, running the exact same quest over and over again gets from fun to tedious. If you want perks from the favor, grinding favor is even more tedious. I have several capped level chars. I can tell you I can't stand the low level and especially favor grind again. Alot of people feel the same way. Thats why alot of people left. Its the same old same old.

There's a difference between fun and grind.

>I can also see how this can be exploited. My wizard happens to get tons of raid loot he cant use. That raid loot would be great for a melee character.

-Well first of all, the reaver raid was broken, so it was exploitetd. So its not the reroll system that can be exploited, things were already broken. Since your wiz has the melee items, so could some other fighter. The reroll would save you the effort of making a fighter and get those items again. But if you feel like its an exploit, simply delete the items. Or play untwinked chars.

The key thing is choice. If you can't control yourself, its not the issue, can't play policeman.

>Getting all your bound items for free is a poor idea.

-Its not free. Your char has to get it in the first place. Some raids are silly easy like reaver, and was exploited, so it does seem like free. But that is the problem with the raid, not the reroll system. Again if you are against the idea, simply delete the items, or play untwinked.

>Seems to me people are asking for an easy button.

-This is an optional feature. A paid feature. If people want to play their chars untwinked they can do it. If people want to play perma-death, the can do it. If people want to twink their chars, they can do it. This doesn't change anything. People want to play the way they want to play. If you want to make the game hard, nothing is stopping you from doing it.

But actually you are missing the key points of the paid reroll system.

-People want to fix stats and skills of chars.
-28pt to 32pt retro favor.
-People get tired of the same static quest and favor grind.
-People want to try different char builds, but don't want to start from scratch all the items, tomes, favor again.

If DDO didn't have the 'favor' concept, or make raids so easy, then starting a char from scratch wouldn't be an issue, since nothing to lose. But now since people invested so much time equiping a char and earning the favor, its a different story.

Again the key thing here is choice. If you run out of things to do, you can play untwinked char. I want to fix mine, or experiment with new builds.

GrayOldDruid
11-21-2007, 10:23 AM
Well Turbine had a poll of what people would pay. Most of it useless. Revisiting the respec (most recently in Kargon's thread), here's services people would actually pay.

-Complete Character Respec (keep favor, tome, items)

Drop to XP 0, L1. Complete as in complete. Literally start from character building screen, select race, apperance, class, name and build it. Then apply the tomes you have eaten to the new character. Then your character merrily start his/her new life again, but has the items you worked so hard to retain.


Right now, i would pay to re-do a level I just attained. Clicked "Accept" or "Done" before I realized that I didn't put skill points where they needed to go. So, I have a whole level without what I wanted to do.... then may not be able to take points in perform with a sorcerer level. :D

Kind of like the Feat respec without all the hassle of finding shards and paying outrageous sums of money I don't have. I would not mind going back and taking FE: Undead as my first one and mabye FE : abberations or something besides Goblinoids. - but I am not spending good plat to do it... would spend $5.00 or so though.

On the other hand, taking and totally re-doing a character and keeping all the tomes and equipment, etc. is just ... silly. If you dropped to 0 xp, then you could not use all the awesome loot you have, since its MLhigherthan1. You would still have the low-level quests to do.

Maybe a Pay feature where you get to tweek your build - add in the stat points you get from favor, plus re-apply your tomes, etc. Not total re-roll... stay same classes - say Ranger 11/Rogue 3 - but take Rogue at 1st instead of Ranger then Rogue.... re-spend skill points, etc. Use what you have, just in a different order or different focus. Can totally change up Feats and Enhancements according to level....

After a re-arrange of stat points and an add-in for 32point instead of 28, it would be basically just go through all the level-ups you have already done - only in a different way. Don't loose anything. Still wind up Ranger 11/ Rogue 3, but a total different 'build' - having corrected 'mistakes' or things that didn't work like you thought.

philo
11-21-2007, 10:25 AM
I do see your points. I'll address them from my point of view:

> I run out of things to do fast enough without having my brand new character equipped with tomes/raid loot I have attained on another character

-Normally I would agree with you. But currently with static dungeons, running the exact same quest over and over again gets from fun to tedious. If you want perks from the favor, grinding favor is even more tedious. I have several capped level chars. I can tell you I can't stand the low level and especially favor grind again. Alot of people feel the same way. Thats why alot of people left. Its the same old same old.

There's a difference between fun and grind.

>I can also see how this can be exploited. My wizard happens to get tons of raid loot he cant use. That raid loot would be great for a melee character.

-Well first of all, the reaver raid was broken, so it was exploitetd. So its not the reroll system that can be exploited, things were already broken. Since your wiz has the melee items, so could some other fighter. The reroll would save you the effort of making a fighter and get those items again. But if you feel like its an exploit, simply delete the items. Or play untwinked chars.

The key thing is choice. If you can't control yourself, its not the issue, can't play policeman.

>Getting all your bound items for free is a poor idea.

-Its not free. Your char has to get it in the first place. Some raids are silly easy like reaver, and was exploited, so it does seem like free. But that is the problem with the raid, not the reroll system. Again if you are against the idea, simply delete the items, or play untwinked.

>Seems to me people are asking for an easy button.

-This is an optional feature. A paid feature. If people want to play their chars untwinked they can do it. If people want to play perma-death, the can do it. If people want to twink their chars, they can do it. This doesn't change anything. People want to play the way they want to play. If you want to make the game hard, nothing is stopping you from doing it.

But actually you are missing the key points of the paid reroll system.

-People want to fix stats and skills of chars.
-28pt to 32pt retro favor.
-People get tired of the same static quest and favor grind.
-People want to try different char builds, but don't want to start from scratch all the items, tomes, favor again.

If DDO didn't have the 'favor' concept, or make raids so easy, then starting a char from scratch wouldn't be an issue, since nothing to lose. But now since people invested so much time equiping a char and earning the favor, its a different story.

Again the key thing here is choice. If you run out of things to do, you can play untwinked char. I want to fix mine, or experiment with new builds.

You didnt touch on this part:

"Not that I ever think turbine would ever do what has been suggested. Turbine realizes rerolling a 32 point build and acquiring new gear keeps people playing and paying. The amount of money they would receive from this as a premium service would be tiny compared to what they would lose because of the canceled accounts when every 32 point build has multiple of every raid loot item they could possibly want."

It leaves people with nothing left to attain.

If you think (your words):
"But currently with static dungeons, running the exact same quest over and over again gets from fun to tedious."

Why would transferring bound gear from one character to another make those quests any less tedious for you?

You don't have to get 1750 favor, that is completely optional. If you don't want to run quests that you already ran on another character what is there left to do?

artvan_delet
11-21-2007, 10:26 AM
To reiterate a previous poster's point: They have changed the game significantly over the last year. I have had the same toon for 16 mos. They changed human versatility, the enhancement system, nerfed some things, improved others. The playing field has completely changed since I rolled my toon. I should be able to pay to level the playing field.

I would not vote to unbind items. They stay with the toon that pulled em.

philo
11-21-2007, 10:44 AM
To reiterate a previous poster's point: They have changed the game significantly over the last year. I have had the same toon for 16 mos. They changed human versatility, the enhancement system, nerfed some things, improved others. The playing field has completely changed since I rolled my toon. I should be able to pay to level the playing field.

I would not vote to unbind items. They stay with the toon that pulled em.

Everyone experienced the same nerfs/changes you did. The playing field is level. Just reroll like everyone else or be happy playing the game with the characters you have.

Paying real money to increase a characters power (not just changing the name or swapping the server) is no different then buying plat.

I remember back in mod 1 seeing spam mails about people who would kill the dragon for you for real money and let you have the loot. That is very similar to the idea mentioned here except that people want turbine to endorse it. Not that i would ever recommend this in a non-sarcastic manner hah: But if your really want to pay money to get raid loot on a new character I'm sure you can probably find someone willing to do that for you:P

paintedman
11-21-2007, 12:43 PM
While these seem like good ideas I must say that I do not think they are, on the first brush, yes, it would allow everyone who paid to "fix" their character. Take the proper line of feats and enhancements, fix stats here and there, so sure why wouldn't I remake my 28 pre-launch dwarven cleric or 28 sorc who has actually unlocked the 32 point builds? Because my other characters really and truly stand on the shoulders of these characters.

Flawed as they are, they did hack it and are viable. Did I get lucky with my pre-launch ideas? Perhaps, did others not get so lucky, this is a distinct possibility, but when/if Turbine allows us to fix, remake, min/max our toons to our liking I can't help but feel it takes something away from Dungeons and Dragons complete ideal. The best hero is inherently flawed, why would you want to be perfect? To get the highest kill ratio? To breeze through quest with out breaking a sweat? While it may seem disjointed, it is all in my opinion connected. There is a struggle I can see with perfection on one end and good o'l fashioned fun on the other end and the more we push for perfection, the more we push the quest makers to up the ante to defeat us, rather than entertain us!

For an example...traps...bothersome and avoidable once sprung...in gianthold there is a trap that will get you (yes kill if you are unlucky) if you have become accustomed to the usual fare of traps. I was mixed when it was pointed out to me, I was glad to not have died on it, but more sad that I didn't get to see it work (kill a pc). I am against perfection, and so once again I say that I do not support this suggestion.

-paintedman

Twerpp
11-21-2007, 12:56 PM
I would like to see some amount of freedom with bound items WITHIN YOUR OWN ACCOUNT ONLY. Token to unbound an item has potential for platfarmer abuse though, so I couldn't get behind that.

kruggar
11-21-2007, 01:04 PM
Some Considerations:

Skill Respec - Most of the old players had chars with flawed skill distribution, cause as we started playing we tought in a PnP enviroment and DDO has some diferent aproaches to some skills. I think a respec like the one FRED does now on feats would be nice to have. Use a Shard and redo your skill distribution, this will help a lot of players that after spent the points discovered that they made something wrong.

28 to 32 points - Why not simply give the 4 extra points when the guy achieve the 1750 favor to the char? its simple give the points to be aplied to the char, this will put all chars 32 and started 28 chars in the same page. I dont think a 28 point char is flawed and they can do everything the others can do, but well 32 points is better :)

Payment for respec and upgrades - I dont like the idea of $$ improving your char in any manner, this will create a market that i dont want to see in DDO.

Rerolls - Its against my time limit to do everything i already did over and over, so no rerolls in my opinion are valid. I deleted a few chars i didnt liked to reinvent them but only cause i didnt liked and all of them were mid lvl ones.

Fallout
11-21-2007, 02:01 PM
You didnt touch on this part:

"Not that I ever think turbine would ever do what has been suggested. Turbine realizes rerolling a 32 point build and acquiring new gear keeps people playing and paying. The amount of money they would receive from this as a premium service would be tiny compared to what they would lose because of the canceled accounts when every 32 point build has multiple of every raid loot item they could possibly want."

It leaves people with nothing left to attain.

If you think (your words):
"But currently with static dungeons, running the exact same quest over and over again gets from fun to tedious."

Why would transferring bound gear from one character to another make those quests any less tedious for you?

You don't have to get 1750 favor, that is completely optional. If you don't want to run quests that you already ran on another character what is there left to do?


>Turbine realizes rerolling a 32 point build and acquiring new gear keeps people playing and paying.

Actually thats not true. Thats why alot of people left the game.

>Why would transferring bound gear from one character to another make those quests any less tedious for you?

Its like playing other video games. You solve the game, then replay the game again with 'unlock' characters or weapons. Say I want to make my original 28pt paladin build into a 32 pt TWF barb. I'm flagged for all quests, got max favor, have tomes and items. Can just focus on leveling. I actually did make a TWF barb to L14. But looking at all the quests have to do, barely any favor, just discouraged.

>You don't have to get 1750 favor, that is completely optional. If you don't want to run quests that you already ran on another character what is there left to do?

I have three chars that are max favor or almost max favor. I don't know for some people, but it was very long and tedious for me. Trying to get group together to do favor quests that no one wants. Sit around waiting. Then on chain quests people do a couple. Drop out.

Alot of people rather reroll, and just play the new char like its new, but already bypass the boring and tedious stuff.

Fallout
11-21-2007, 02:10 PM
The best hero is inherently flawed, why would you want to be perfect?


I can see this from a RP perspective, and for PnP. But from a video game stand point want to make the char as good as possible.

The problem is that DDO doesn't really give a sense of role playing. Kill mobs fast and efficient. That translate to trying to make your character as good as possible.

When I was playing Baldur's Gate, even though I made bad chars, had an incredible sense of adventure, didn't mind not having 'perfect' characters. In FFVII great example of flawed hero, but it had a good story line.

DDO doesn't have that. You pop in the quest and start killing stuff. Since quests are static, you know exactly where things are, what to expect. So people zerg.

People can play how ever they want, but I keep stressing that its a choice. If people want to continue to RP, they can do it. But if some people enjoy constantly tweaking their chars, give them a choice too.

Invalid_86
11-21-2007, 02:15 PM
Wow, just no. There is just way too much room for abuse in this system, and it doesn't even pretend to be a game balanced option. Not signed.

paintedman
11-21-2007, 03:22 PM
I can see this from a RP perspective, and for PnP. But from a video game stand point want to make the char as good as possible.

The problem is that DDO doesn't really give a sense of role playing. Kill mobs fast and efficient. That translate to trying to make your character as good as possible.

When I was playing Baldur's Gate, even though I made bad chars, had an incredible sense of adventure, didn't mind not having 'perfect' characters. In FFVII great example of flawed hero, but it had a good story line.

DDO doesn't have that. You pop in the quest and start killing stuff. Since quests are static, you know exactly where things are, what to expect. So people zerg.

People can play how ever they want, but I keep stressing that its a choice. If people want to continue to RP, they can do it. But if some people enjoy constantly tweaking their chars, give them a choice too.

I suppose that is where the divergance is, most see DDO as a similar beast to WOW or any other comparable MMO, some see DDO as an attempt at PnP DnD brought into the online world, which I must admit it is in fact just that, a translation from PnP to Online status. My beef is when changes slant towards making DDO just like the other MMO's. So if we keep going with the mind set of "as good as possible" then the reaction from the Devs logically will be to immitate more and more other MMO's taking away the uniquness that I see in DDO.

I played Lineage II for a while for example. There were about two paths to take per class and a set of weapons that were direct upgrades from each other. In DDO there are many paths to take, and in that spirit and ability to gimp a character, there will be errors, does this mean we fix all the "errors" and create clones of builds that are posted on these forums? I shudder to think of seeing the same builds over and over again. Batman build for example.

I say reroll, and yes I have done it with level 14 characters, because of feat changes <ranger evasion> *cough*, but in truth I take that pill as I tried to beat the PnP system, heavy armour on a evasion ranger was sweet... Many who complain, due so knowing that at the time of character creation that they new things were not as in PnP. Returning to evasion, this was a known expliot, don't kidd yourselves, and now it has been aligned with PnP. Which is where DDO come from. For those that cry out "This isn't PnP!" I agree, it is not, but it is where DDO gets it roots from. To expect anything less is really your own fault.

Skills, honestly, this is another for those looking for perfection. I have not broken a single character because of my placement of skills.

32 vs 28...If your 28 point build character was able to unlock 32 point builds then it stands to reason that your 28 point character is doing something right.

Feats, I dunno, the cost of switching out feats in steep, I'll admit that, but it is doable.

Equipment is just luck of the draw or looting the heck out of raids before the nasty changes.

I would like a dev to jump on in this knife fight and give us some insight on thier side, good or bad, don't worry most wont hold you to what you say Mr/Ms Dev.

-paintedman

Arj
11-23-2007, 03:18 AM
/signed x10

Fallout
11-27-2007, 11:40 AM
In DDO there are many paths to take, and in that spirit and ability to gimp a character, there will be errors, does this mean we fix all the "errors" and create clones of builds that are posted on these forums? I shudder to think of seeing the same builds over and over again. Batman build for example.

Skills, honestly, this is another for those looking for perfection. I have not broken a single character because of my placement of skills.


If Turbine wants the hard core PnP crowd, then I suppose having ability to gimp your characters is a valid reason.

However, if they want to appeal to casual gamers and non PnP people like myself, then that is a serious issue.

Scenario 1: Casual Joe splashed different classes for fun. Then when hitting higher levels, his fun multi-class character just sucked at higher and elite quests. It took him a long time to reach the level because he can't play that much. Frustrated, he goes to WoW.

Scenario 2: People research (look at SRD etc) then tries to apply to DDO. Day 1, lots of skills doesn't work, picked bad skills. Now they can't fix it. There are also several game changing rules like SOTR, or cast on the run. Is the character still valid? Probably. But does it ruin enjoyment, yes it can. This is video game, most people want to make character they enjoy.

>I shudder to think of seeing the same builds over and over again. Batman build for example.

That is never an issue. People do that now with so many character slots. It doesn't change anything. If people want a certain template build, they do that now. People will play the way they want to play, that has never changed.

>Skills, honestly, this is another for those looking for perfection. I have not broken a single character because of my placement of skills.

Its more the question of enjoyment since this is a game. If you don't enjoy a character, then you play less or quit. That is in additional with content issues. I made alot of characters that hit L14, but only play a couple, rest are on the shelf collecting dust. Alot of people are in same boat.

Gengulphus
11-27-2007, 11:48 AM
These are all really fantastic ideas! I especially like the "unbind 1 item" suggestion!

/signed

HFGfeather
11-27-2007, 01:46 PM
With the servers down and over the Holiday I have had a lot of time to think. So I played Diablo II doing more thinking. Now mind you things get dangerious when this wizard starts thinking.

No bound items please craft what we need
In Diablo II you can change an item to suit your needs if it has slots to put things in. Once the jewls or whatever are placed in the slot I see no way of removing them so far. I haven't found one yet but the Hordic Cube seems like a neat item to do your combining in. Now EQ had a way of removing an unwanted change to an item. Looks like a good crafting system to me. I don't know how crafting is done in PnP but anything would be better then what we have now which is nothing. Make what you need instead of having to redo all the same quests over and over till you are sick of them.

About redoing Quests
Redoing quests till we are sick to death of them for special items we want for our class that are now rare drops. Your 28 point char was able to get thoes items with ease it was a right of passage. Now just for a wizard to get the Balck Widow Bracers it had taken me 12 tries through WW and my level 5 32 point still doesn't have them. They offer me all kinds of bound stuff I can't use and I just sell it. What a waste! Same with the Crimson Gemstone from tangle root she can't seem to get that as end loot either. My other 3 wizards easiily had those 2 items by level 3. Yea, I am sick to death of thoes 2 quests. And to think I deleted a perfectly good wizard to make a 32 point that can't even get 2 simple items. Oh I get offered bracers of + something to repair WF. As if that is going to help keep the wizard alive to repair the WF. I have herd Rogues complaining about not getting the end item they wanted from the catacombs for the 6th try as well. Two of the most nerfed chars in the game Wizards and Rogues can't get their rights of passage.

Nerfed as in you give then you take away and expect us to be happy about it. I realize you want to keep the game challanging, I get that. To give you some idea of what you Devs have done I have spent 200,000 plat to help a friend rebuild his Human Rogue back to what he was before the big Rogue/Human versititity nerf. Well, he is still not back to half of the things he could do with his rogue before the nerf. I helped him so he would not leave the game. I realize that if you used the Human versitility thing It made a pretty awesome char maybe too good. I won't even go into what you did to my wizards. Obviously It is all about the Fighters and how great they are. Maybe I will jusy roll a fighter and quit playing my wizards.

About changes
Constant changes and then giving us no way except to reroll, to compensate for the changes you made, is rediculious. Not to mention a bit unfair. When you make a change you need to make a way for us to make different choices to compensate. To have to reroll a char and loose tomes, bound items, and raid items is rediculious. If you are trying to kill the game you are going about it right.
Azari

Grimborn
11-27-2007, 01:53 PM
Signed.

QuantumFX
11-27-2007, 09:25 PM
/signed

This game has needed a reroll/remort function since day one.

Fallout
11-30-2007, 10:10 AM
With STWF on the horizon, people can't plan for it since the requirements was not stated in the begining. I'm not talking about rangers, but other classes that took TWF chain. Turbine can't expect to reroll a new character for every new change and expect us to be happy about it.

SOTR and cast on the run changes blew big time. Great for people who got them for free. Blew chunks for people who splash classes and put attributes for the requirements.

krud
11-30-2007, 03:16 PM
Why not give any 28pt character who reaches 1750 favor four extra build points in addition to the +2 tome? Spend them the same way you do at character creation. That would put them on par with the 32pt builds. It's probably much simpler than programming an entire character respec. It seems most people gripe about their 28pt build suddenly becoming obsolete when they hit 1750 (I have no idea why, stat envy i guess), so this would solve the issue without requiring too much dev effort.

Most of the other reasons seem to fall under the "my toon is less than perfect" category. Free reroll will only temporarily appease them until they find some other reason why their toon is less than perfect. Not a valid reason for wasting dev time on a complete respec effort, IMO.

Shrazkil
11-30-2007, 03:26 PM
My thought on the respec idea was this.

Make an unbound raid item for mod 6, call it like "orb of the pheonix" or something. make it a very rare item.

When consumed like a tome, it kills you, and you are taken to the character creation screen. Your name is locked, the rest is changable. When completed, you are spawned where you died, you are level 1, you retain all of your factioning , all of your items and mail, and are granted half of your previous experience points. ( which means leveling will be much harder since all the quests you ran will still have the number of times you ran them.)

Fallout
12-03-2007, 01:15 AM
My thought on the respec idea was this.

Make an unbound raid item for mod 6, call it like "orb of the pheonix" or something. make it a very rare item.

When consumed like a tome, it kills you, and you are taken to the character creation screen. Your name is locked, the rest is changable. When completed, you are spawned where you died, you are level 1, you retain all of your factioning , all of your items and mail, and are granted half of your previous experience points. ( which means leveling will be much harder since all the quests you ran will still have the number of times you ran them.)

I think we can have both. There's the rare drop for those who want it free. And add it as premium service for those who won't wait to look for one.

Like alot of people have multiple chars that needs changes. It falls under the category that they're either capped, or no way going to start over doing it again, vs delete and reroll.

-Day 1 sorc. Need to change attributes and skills.
-Day 1 paladin. Need to change skills.
-Cleric. Decided not the direction wanted to do. But already ate a +2 tome and L14. Not going to start over again.
-And mostly skill changes on all char. After playing decide a certain skill used more then others.

Being able to change will not be unbalancing or game changing. People like tweaking their characters, and will continue to do so, even if they can tweak their characters. If rerolls/respec/ etc is implemented with a reasonable price, it will be a regularly used service for those who want it.

Again optional, against your morals or whatever, don't use it.

soulthunder
12-03-2007, 04:45 AM
#1 Contact Turbine Premium Service Department: Pay for re-spec under whatever guidelines are established.

#2 Contact Power Leveling/Plat Farming company: Pay for leveled character and gear.

The Difference: One would be sanctioned by Turbine the other would not.

As a paid service this would only serve to further muddy the waters between characters created at launch and those created after adjustments/favor/patches/fixes who choose not to or cannot afford to pay the "premium". If a re-spec is considered a "premium" service, I would like to know what the REGULAR service is.

I have no problem paying for an expansion pack should one be developed. If they announced tomorrow that Mod 6 would be a paid expansion and include Monk, crafting, a level increase, etc, etc....I would buy.

If I wouldn't have borked my original post by hitting tab for indent and then hitting backspace and losing 30 minutes worth of my original post, I'm sure I could have made several other valid points :eek:

I would say if something is broken and warrants a re-spec for characters, then everyone should get it, not the option to pay for it. If it's not broken....*heh*

Stanley_Nicholas
12-03-2007, 10:06 AM
I fully agree with the suggestions in the OP. The only alteration I'd make would be to stipulate that if you pay to unbind an item, it can only be transferred to a different character on the same account.

GrayOldDruid
12-03-2007, 10:13 AM
Couple of trains of thoughts here.

For the 'free' reroll such as Kargon's thread, it maybe be a limited reroll that you can't change some things. And it will be a cost such as losing favor like he suggested.

I'm thinking for those who want more and minus some of the big penalties, can pay for it. For example I won't erase 2475 favor on my original paladin for a reroll. Favor grind is absolutely mind numbing after doing it for the X number of time. So a 'paid' version of the reroll save people from that misery and fill the coffers of Turbine.

So implementing various paid services it will generate income. Free is nice, but ultimately having something thats revenue generating is their focus.

I can tell you alot of peope would pay (for a reasonable fee) to make changes to their characters.

YES, I would!!

Fallout
12-03-2007, 10:25 AM
#1 Contact Turbine Premium Service Department: Pay for re-spec under whatever guidelines are established.

#2 Contact Power Leveling/Plat Farming company: Pay for leveled character and gear.

The Difference: One would be sanctioned by Turbine the other would not.

As a paid service this would only serve to further muddy the waters between characters created at launch and those created after adjustments/favor/patches/fixes who choose not to or cannot afford to pay the "premium". If a re-spec is considered a "premium" service, I would like to know what the REGULAR service is.

I have no problem paying for an expansion pack should one be developed. If they announced tomorrow that Mod 6 would be a paid expansion and include Monk, crafting, a level increase, etc, etc....I would buy.

If I wouldn't have borked my original post by hitting tab for indent and then hitting backspace and losing 30 minutes worth of my original post, I'm sure I could have made several other valid points :eek:

I would say if something is broken and warrants a re-spec for characters, then everyone should get it, not the option to pay for it. If it's not broken....*heh*

I rather have it for free too heh. But after all these time, I'm not holding my breath for them to implement it. I think I read somewhere there would be no paid expansion pack planned.

So right now the situation is divert resources to implement a free service vs. fix bugs or add new content. The latter will always win out. But if there would be some revenue generated, then would be a valid cost justification. I rather pay a fee then wait who knows when, if at all. Thats the crux of my reasoning. My character slots are filled with characters I made, but not happy with them, but won't delete them because of time and effort into them. So they just sit there.

Plat farmers will always be here because they provide a service to people. People may hate them, but they're here because apparently alot of people buy from them. If you look at the DDO demographics, I'm pretty sure most of them are older crowd, and they may not have the time to grind, so they are willing to fork over a few bucks here and there. 15$ a month for this entertainment is not alot. And the time wasted to grind or reroll a toon (which is not fun, its a grind), alot of people would pay money for the plat or whatever.

Bottom line is either Turbine is getting the money or the plat farmers. So far by the spam I'm getting, the farmers are doing pretty well.

Fallout
12-03-2007, 10:27 AM
I fully agree with the suggestions in the OP. The only alteration I'd make would be to stipulate that if you pay to unbind an item, it can only be transferred to a different character on the same account.

Yah definately.
If some characters are 'retired' with some usuable raid loot, might as well pass it to an active character.

Stanley_Nicholas
12-03-2007, 02:48 PM
Yah definately.
If some characters are 'retired' with some usuable raid loot, might as well pass it to an active character.

If they implement these suggestions, you bet I'll use them.

Fallout
12-04-2007, 06:08 PM
Respec/Reroll has been brought up time and time again, and will continue to do so.

Whats next, STWF appears and has a 19 dex requirements. It makes planning a character for the future difficult at best since don't know what will come up. Like SOTR changes, it will force some builds to reroll. There needs to be a system that allows us to respec our character. Other MMO's have the feature. In a game that can be unforgiving to bad/mistake/game change, its mind boggling that there is no comprehensive respec feature.

If thats how they want to roll, then so be it. There's more out there.

Hence
12-04-2007, 06:12 PM
I like it, even though I hate paying more real money for a game... this would be the only exception.
I would pay extra to rebuild my character if I got to keep all my tomes used and all my items.

If not that, then I might pay to transfer bound items to a new character, but I like the first idea better.

Fallout
12-06-2007, 12:12 PM
In addition there should be a 'mercy' rule for one or two levels. Say in the sorc's thread, he accidently got 1 level of wiz instead of advancing to L9 sorc. Turbine should implement a 1 level de-leveler option.

It also allows people to 'test' a splash to see if they like it.

woofy
12-07-2007, 04:41 AM
well if they made a poll atleast we know their thinking about it :)