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Sem34
11-09-2007, 03:42 PM
o Note: you may only have one Bardic Specialization at a time
o Spellsinger
 Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell
 Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.
o Virtuoso
 Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Extra Song 2, Bard Skill: Perform 2, Bard Lingering Song 1, Bard Charisma 1, Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song 4, Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator
 Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and your beneficial songs last an additional 10% longer. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken.
o Warchanter
 Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning
 Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-."
“Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, and Tempest are indeed the currently planned Ranger enhancements.”

“There won't be a racial restriction on Arcane Archer, but it's likely that Elves will have a racial enhancement among the "...and one of the following..." prerequisites.”


After reading this I started wondering why DDO went this way then just implementing Prestige classes (PrC’s) straight from the manual… My guess is that with the enhancement system they would have to design a new group for each PrC that DDO put in. With Monk and Druid coming (soon I hope) classes are still short, one of the best things about D&D was the ability to play a class and not just be pigeon hold into being just a fighter or Cleric… you had the ability or option to change how you want to play by picking up Prestige classes. But with the way DDO is implementing the PrC this narrows the field of vision of how a person can play a character. The way they are currently working is if I want to play an Arcane Archer I would have to play a Ranger… why when I could play a Fighter/ Wizard… or a Paladin / Sorcerer. So here is my suggestion on how PrC can be implemented…

Sub classing: DDO lets us multi-class up to 3 classes so bringing in PrC as classes are not going to be an option as many of us have Mains or Alts with 3 classes and the war of "Devs Give us the ability to switch classes..." "Devs you messed up my build" "Devs you killed my character I quit", so my idea is using PrC as Subclass. The some of the problems that I saw with the PrC they only go to 10 levels (unless Epic)… So my thinking is that we would have for example (with the new level Cap) 14 Fighter / 2 Rogue… with 10 levels of Blackguard…

Experience: since they are a subclass with most of us having capped characters and exp is not really an issue in this game, how about implementing a way we can have Alternate advancement earned just like our system now but stop we are capped Subclass levels…

Levels of Sub class: Currently we earn xp for our character levels that are broken down by ranks, each rank gives us an action point that we can save or spend towards enhancements. What I am suggesting is that for 1 level of Sub class you need to earn enough exp to reach the next level and so on… but to keep a balance (lol) you can only advance in a sub-class as to match your highest Class Level Max 10 for example (A 9 fighter / 2 Rogue / 3 Paladin… the max Sub Class could only be Level 9). The other balance to this is the fact that no extra HD, BAB, or Saves are being added to your main Class. All you gain is the extra abilities from the PrC. With the feats you need to qualify for the PrC this is a balance in of its own.

Example:
Level 1: 0 – 5,000
Level 2: 5,001 – 20,000
Level 3: 20,001 – 50,000
Level 4: 50,001 – 90,000
Level 5: 90,001 – 140,000
Level 6: 140,001 – 200,000
Level 7: 200,001- 270,000
Level 8: 270,001 – 350,000
Level 9: 350,001 – 440,000
Level 10: 440,001 – 550,000


So let’s look at the Blackguard… yes an evil class but with Eberron’s “point of View” alignment or DDO’s lack of Evil alignment this could work for any “any Lawful”
First we have to take out the HD… we are using them as subclasses so no HD…

Requirements

To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Alignment: Any evil change to (Any Lawful)
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Skills: Hide 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks. (I’ll address Knowledge skills later)
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack.
Special: The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else. (Really just a RP flavor thing here)
Class Skills
The blackguard's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Concentration (Con), (in game)
Craft (Int), (coming soon)
Diplomacy (Cha), (in game)
Handle Animal (Cha), (take out no need)
Heal (Wis), (in game)
Hide (Dex), (in Game)
Intimidate (Cha), (in game)
Knowledge (religion) (Int), (I’ll Address this later)
Profession (Wis), (I’ll Address this later)
Ride (Dex). (take out no need)

Skill Points N/A

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the blackguard prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blackguards are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor, and with shields.

Aura of Evil (Ex): The power of a blackguard's aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his class level plus his cleric level, if any. (can make this work like the Paladins ability is working now)
Detect Good (Sp): At will, a blackguard can use detect good as a spell-like ability, duplicating the effect of the detect good spell. (not really needed)

Poison Use: Blackguards are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Dark Blessing (Su): A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws

Spells: A blackguard has the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. To cast a blackguard spell, a blackguard must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level, so a blackguard with a Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Blackguard bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the blackguard's Wisdom modifier. When the blackguard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level (for instance, 1st-level spells for a 1st-level blackguard), he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. The blackguard's spell list appears below. A blackguard has access to any spell on the list and can freely choose which to prepare, just as a cleric. A blackguard prepares and casts spells just as a cleric does (though a blackguard cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells).

Smite Good (Su): Once a day, a blackguard of 2nd level or higher may attempt to smite good with one normal melee attack. He adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per class level. For example, a 9th-level blackguard armed with a long sword would deal 1d8+9 points of damage, plus any additional bonuses from high Strength or magical effects that normally apply. If a blackguard accidentally smites a creature that is not good, the smite has no effect but it is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and again at 10th level, a blackguard may smite good one additional time per day.

Aura of Despair (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to suffer a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

Command Undead (Su): When a blackguard reaches 3rd level, he gains the supernatural ability to command and rebuke undead (see the Player's Handbook, pages 139-140). He commands undead as would a cleric of two levels lower.

Sneak Attack: This ability, gained at 4th level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on damage stack.

Blackguard Spell List
Blackguards choose their spells from the following list:

1st Level:
cause fear,
cure light wounds,
doom,
inflict light wounds,
magic weapon,
summon monster I*.

2nd Level:
bull's strength,
cure moderate wounds,
darkness,
death knell,
eagle's splendor,
inflict moderate wounds,
shatter,
summon monster II*.

3rd Level:
contagion,
cure serious wounds,
deeper darkness,
inflict serious wounds,
protection from elements,
summon monster III*.

4th Level:
cure critical wounds,
freedom of movement,
inflict critical wounds,
poison,
summon monster IV*.


Now let’s look at Arcane archers

They have many useful abilities. Here are a few things to consider when building an arcane archer:

Hard Qualification: Only a select few individuals qualify to become arcane archers. A prospective arcane archer must
Be and elf or half-elf
Base attack bonus of +6.
Additionally, he must have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow)(not in game),
Be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells.

Special Abilities: At each new level, an arcane archer gains a useful ability that augments his ranged attacks.

1st level, he gains the enhance arrow ability, which transforms his nonmagical arrows into magical weapons. For every two additional levels he gains, his arrows gain an additional enhancement bonus (for example, +1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, and so on).

At every even-numbered level, he gains additional powers. Imbue arrow enables an arcane archer to place an area spell on an arrow centered on where the arrow lands.

4th level he can fire a seeker arrow once per day that strikes a known target in range even if it must fly around corners! Phase arrow

6th level allows the arcane archer to fire one arrow a day that strikes a known target, bypassing any intervening nonmagical barrier such as a wall.

8th level, he can unleash a hail of arrows instead of his normal attack, firing a single shot at every target in range (up to a number equal to his class level).

10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target struck to make a DC 20 Fortitude saving throw or die.

Spellcasting: Arcane archers do not gain any additional spellcasting abilities. Using the sub class this would not be an issue.

Now on to Skills… We all have run across the Stat runes in one quest or another… what bugged me the most about this was when Dragon (VON’s) first came out this is when Min/Max builds started… everyone noticed you needed min of 25 Stat to use the runes or flip the switch… the switch bugs me a bit but not as much as how they implemented the Runes… my thinking is these would have been great to use the Skill “Knowledge… type” invest skill points in to this would also bring down the overly extreme Skill points needed to disable traps, balance, pick-locks… ect.

But all this is just an Idea to toss around and see if a better idea then the enhancements PrC’s can be implemented.

GuitarHero
11-09-2007, 04:08 PM
just a point of note, why not "any non-good" instead of "any lawful"? It seems to make more sense, so there aren't any lawful good blackguards runnin' around pillaging the landscape and healing the sick.

Tin_Dragon
11-09-2007, 05:15 PM
So if the enhancement system is in anyway hindering the development of PrCs. Get rid of the whole thing. Of course I have been saying that since March of '06.

Sem34
11-09-2007, 08:05 PM
Well My thinking is that the Enhancements are staying... to much time, work, and money were involved in creating them... So this is just an Idea to add PrC's in a way where all classes can take them not just the "Main" classes like Rangers, Bards, Rogues... Even if the Enhancements were taken out, it wouldnt change the fact that most of us are 3 classes and sitting at lvl 14... to put PrC in now would cause most of us to shout "Re-Roll"...

Griphon
11-10-2007, 02:38 PM
I don't think I like this..

Let me explain.

PrCs are OPTIONALs.
PrCs (typically) should focus a character towards one possible direction, while loosing some aspects of the orginal class. This focuses the character more towards the this one aspect, and 'weakens' the others. (Big duh there, huh?)

Having said that.. These 'other levels' would have to gain you absolutely no powers or abilities.. or bonuses. Why? Because they're OPTIONAL, not manditory. Also because the ability to gain powers related to a PrC and a class? Way over powering.

So it'd boil down to: Whats the point?

Hey.. if you want to call your character a 'Blackguard'. Feel free. Because it'd amount to the same thing.

PrCs would have to be implemented from scratch. They'd have to have their own 'enhancements' because I don't see them leaving either. PrCs would be kicken. (Weapon Master: Kopesh! Crit a full one quarter of the time!) But.. I don't see them happening. Sorry. If they can't get us extra basic classes like Monk and Druid? I can't see this as being too high on their to-do list.

nbhs275
11-10-2007, 03:04 PM
thing is, if they where implemented as main classes we would have

A the inability to use them properly unless we rerolled

B could not be a rogue/pally/fighter and have a PRC. Right now you can be a pally fighter rogue that is also an assassin.


I think keeping it all enhancments is a good idea, especially if they add different rankings of it. Like spellsinger for example.

current there is the first rank, where you need 2 levels of healing, 2 levels of concentrate, and mental toughness and extend.

and you get 100 sp, +2 umd and +2 concentrate. and a song that is -5% cost and +1 DC

maybe the second rank of spellsinger needs all of the first things, plus empower healing, IMT, or SF: UMD, plus you need 3 ranks of concentration and 3 ranks of healing, and 2 ranks of crit range and damage.

But you get +150 sP,(forn 250 total) +5 UMD, +5 concentrate, and a song that reduces cost by 10%, adds +2 to DCs, and adds +10% to all spell damage.

So that second level looks real nice, but the costs to getting it are much steeper then the first. And the min lvl is higher.

Give warchanter a second tier.

songs are instead +5 damage, +2 to-hit, +10 DR, and you gain 2 extra rages that have and additional +2 str and con.


I much rather see them become very strong enhancement lines, where all 3 are options. Imagine if virtuoso III was just insane? Fascinate acts as hold monster, or ottos irresistable dance. You get a second set of "songs" that give you a personal boost, like -50% spell cost for 20 seconds(which at 20 would be balanced considering the speed of bard casting), another giving you immunity to all the things any undead has. Deaths dirge or some such nonsense. Construct song, makes fire heal you? something very very nice like that. I mean, if its costly to get, is a very high end ability and limited in uses, it should be something exciting and useful.

then again they may never add on too these series, which i think is a very bad idea.

nbhs275
11-10-2007, 03:09 PM
I don't think I like this..

Let me explain.

PrCs are OPTIONALs.
PrCs (typically) should focus a character towards one possible direction, while loosing some aspects of the orginal class. This focuses the character more towards the this one aspect, and 'weakens' the others. (Big duh there, huh?)

Having said that.. These 'other levels' would have to gain you absolutely no powers or abilities.. or bonuses. Why? Because they're OPTIONAL, not manditory. Also because the ability to gain powers related to a PrC and a class? Way over powering.

So it'd boil down to: Whats the point?

Hey.. if you want to call your character a 'Blackguard'. Feel free. Because it'd amount to the same thing.

PrCs would have to be implemented from scratch. They'd have to have their own 'enhancements' because I don't see them leaving either. PrCs would be kicken. (Weapon Master: Kopesh! Crit a full one quarter of the time!) But.. I don't see them happening. Sorry. If they can't get us extra basic classes like Monk and Druid? I can't see this as being too high on their to-do list.


No no, weapons master greatsword barbarian! crit 10-20! or even rapiers, would be silly fun with WoP rapiers. Though i think it may be all exotics, which in that case khopesh would be good too. Isnt there tricks like: +2 dodge for each exotic weapon wielded? hehe duel kama monk/cleric halfling with 60 AC! lol

Griphon
11-10-2007, 03:28 PM
No no, weapons master greatsword barbarian! crit 10-20! or even rapiers, would be silly fun with WoP rapiers. Though i think it may be all exotics, which in that case khopesh would be good too. Isnt there tricks like: +2 dodge for each exotic weapon wielded? hehe duel kama monk/cleric halfling with 60 AC! lol

Hurm. Don't think you can be a Weapon Master in the PnP game and be a pure barbarian. They simply don't have the required number of feats to make it into the class.... Nor the ability to pick up Weapon Specialization which is required for the class. (I'm still all for having access to a Prestige class to certain classes or required through feats/enhancements.)

As for the 'all may be exotics' bit... I kinda sorta maybe remember a PrC based on being good at Exotic weapons, but that isn't the Weapon Master. The weapon master picked one weapon, and wielded it with uber-coolness and effectiveness. For lack of a better name 'Exotic Weapon Master' PrC got -several- exotic weapons they could thwack people with. MysticTheurge might know more, or have access to the books. (I'm at work currently so don't.)

Griphon
11-10-2007, 03:38 PM
Oh!

And just to let it be known.. I totally agree we'd be grumbling if they added PrCs as classes instead of enhancements. I still think they should be classes... I just think they need to allow a total Respec! A one time respec that allowed: Skills, Feats, attributes and that allowed gobbled up tomes to be carried over. To the new Respec'ed character.

Unfortunately, I think this is the main reason we'll never see PrCs as a class system vs an Enhancement system. Too much work involved in coding the respec functions and the classes.. and enhancements for the classes. (Programmers are notriously lazy beasties , and PtBs in Corps don't like shaking things up that much, or shelling out the cash for such a revamping.)

... Please Devs... Don't smite me for that:) Nothing personal! :)

Aesop
11-10-2007, 03:50 PM
thing is, if they where implemented as main classes we would have

A the inability to use them properly unless we rerolled

B could not be a rogue/pally/fighter and have a PRC. Right now you can be a pally fighter rogue that is also an assassin.


.

Just so you know when during beta they said that PrCs wouldn't count towards max # of Classes. So you could exceed 3 with them

Aesop

EinarMal
11-10-2007, 03:58 PM
The other issues is the enhancement system is very limiting as a way to implement prestige classes. Pretty much all the +1 to spell level type Prc's like arcane trickster and eldritch knight would not be possible the way they are doing them now.

The current enhancement "prestige" classes are a poor excuse for the real ones if you ask me.

honkuimushi
11-10-2007, 09:23 PM
Weapon Master was 3.0. It doesn't exist for 3.5. There is an Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior. It basically allows you to use a few weapon tricks with a exotic weapon of your choice. The only problem is that most of them don't apply to DDO that well. A lot of them are specific to double weapons or the spiked chain. Other abilities allow you to use stunning fist with weapons or to trip with non-trip weapons-- we can already do that. There are a few other abilities, the on that increases your strength bonus for one handed exotic weapons to 2x and allows you to get the same bonus to Power Attack as a two hander would be very popular. But most of the abilities just wouldn't translate well.

I also am hoping for real prestige classes. But given how long monks and druids have taken, I'm not optimistic. Since most of them do not need new animations, I hope it wont take quite so long. The best implementation would probably be in an expansion.

BlueLightBandit
11-10-2007, 09:50 PM
<snip>would not be possible the way they are doing them now.


That's because they change/add enhancements at every update. All of the current spellslinger bard enhancements didn't exist prior to mod5, and that's as close as we've gotten to a Prestige Class so far. One can only assume that they'd implement the same thing for other classes at higher levels by... *gasp* get this... ADDING NEW ENHANCEMENTS.

Griphon
11-11-2007, 05:52 AM
Weapon Master was 3.0. It doesn't exist for 3.5.

Bah I say!
3.5 was just a lame excuse to get more books sold. There wasn't enough real call for it from the few minor changes they made.. There is no 3.5!!

EinarMal
11-11-2007, 08:50 AM
That's because they change/add enhancements at every update. All of the current spellslinger bard enhancements didn't exist prior to mod5, and that's as close as we've gotten to a Prestige Class so far. One can only assume that they'd implement the same thing for other classes at higher levels by... *gasp* get this... ADDING NEW ENHANCEMENTS.

So they can add +1 to spell casting levels and full BAB progression like eldritch knight with the enhancement system? Uh yeah good luck with that which was MY POINT, way to quote a tiny fraction out of context great job with that! Many prestige classes simply cannot be done in the enhancement system, really all it does is add a little PRC flavor to existing classes which is a far cry from the real thing regardless of what other enhancements they add.

Kalanth
11-11-2007, 08:55 AM
Just so you know when during beta they said that PrCs wouldn't count towards max # of Classes. So you could exceed 3 with them

Aesop

As they shouldn't. I believe you can have 3 Classes and 2 PrC's in PnP. I could be mistaken there, however, and I am also not counting on Rule 0.

Aesop
11-11-2007, 09:26 AM
As they shouldn't. I believe you can have 3 Classes and 2 PrC's in PnP. I could be mistaken there, however, and I am also not counting on Rule 0.

There are no limits in pnp on classes or PrCs you can have...other than the xp penalties for non Favored Classes and level disparity

Aesop

BlueLightBandit
11-11-2007, 09:35 AM
So they can add +1 to spell casting levels and full BAB progression like eldritch knight with the enhancement system? Uh yeah good luck with that which was MY POINT, way to quote a tiny fraction out of context great job with that! Many prestige classes simply cannot be done in the enhancement system, really all it does is add a little PRC flavor to existing classes which is a far cry from the real thing regardless of what other enhancements they add.

As you stated... this is not the real thing. This is DDO, not PnP.

They can add whatever they want to enhancements... not just single digit bonuses to spell casting levels. They can add weapon proficiencies and additional spell casting abilities... they can add damage reduction and spell resistance, and whatever else is in the game engine... Thus giving the enhancement system the ability to create your much sought after Prestige Classes.

What my point was that they can add these in the future. They will change the enhancements every mod, and add new enhancements every mod. Eventually giving characters "Prestige Class - like" abilities.