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EinarMal
10-31-2007, 02:24 PM
I've been building various TWF builds incorporating self healing and buffing mainly using Bard builds. The following is a concept for a level 20 build that can buff themselves to epic proportions... It is not a Bard but a Cleric/Wizard/Fighter. It has a few buffs that Bards can't cast like 30 pt. resists, stoneskin, and jump. It also can self cast full heals all without the use of scrolls which slow down combat.

The main reason for this being that most all good buff spells are level 4 and below, and BAB is not as important for clerics with divine power.

Anyway, thought I would post it for what it's worth for comments or anyone looking for a different build that should ultimately work out quite well. The plan at the current cap is Cleric 11/Wizard 2/Fighter 1. Basically you can easily be the main cleric in the group with plenty of spell points and full healing abilities as well as dish out some DPS with TWF.

When the cap goes to 16 a level of fighter at 15 to pick up GTWF and and basically finishing out wizard the rest of the way. This is meant to be a DPS/Tank build with stoneskin, displacment, fearsome, 30 pt. resists and 400+ hit points. Obviously you might have to explain the build for PUG groups or might have some trouble getting into some of them.

Even at the 14 cap you can scroll blur easily on a caster check and use level 3 scrolls fairly reliably.

Main Goals:
TWF
Self Healing
30 pt. Resists
Displacement
Many cool buffs :)
Plenty of hit points

One note is that most/all of the to-hit damage buffs stack with Bard buffs so if a Bard is in the group it gets even better.

(28 Point Build Stats: I would dump the extra in Int/Con)
Dwarf Male Neutral Good Cleric 11/ Wizard 7/Fighter 2

Stats:
Str 16 (32 =16 +5 Levels +2 Tome +1 Enh. +6 Spell +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (22 =16 +1 Tome +5 Item)
Con 12 (24 =12 +2 Favor Tome +2 Enh. +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 8 (14 =8 + 6 Item)
Wis 14 (22 =14 +2 Enh +6 ltem)
Cha 6

Level Progression:
1-Cleric
2-Fighter
3 thru 12-Cleric
13 thru 14-Wizard
15-Fighter
16 thru 20-Wizard

Skills:
Jump or Balance (Quicken on 24/7)

Feats:
1-Toughness
2-(FB) TWF
3-Extend
6-Quicken swap Mental Toughness @18
9-ITWF
12-IC Slashing
13-(WB) Maximize
15-(FB)GTWF
15-Power Attack
18-(WB) Quicken
18-Improved Mental Toughness


Enhancements:
Dwarf Axe Attack II
Dwarf Axe Damage II
Dwarf Toughness IV
Dwarf Con II
Cleric Wisdom II
Cleric Life Magic IV
Fighter Critcal Accuracy I
Fighter Haste Boost I
Cleric EOZ III
Dwarf Spell Defense III
Fighter Toughness I
Fighter Strength I
Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Cleric Prayer of Life III
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Dwarf Faith I

HP:
136(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +140(Con) +22(Helm) +22 Toughness +55(Tough Enh) =435

SP:
485(11 Cleric) +295(7 Wiz) +120(Wis) +32(Int) +100(Magi) +80(EOZ III) +105(MT) +105(IMT) +15(Faith) =1337

Spells Wizard: 5,4,3,2
1-Shield, Exp Retreat, Jump, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missle
2-Blur, Scorching Ray, False Life, Repair Moderate
3-Haste, Displacement, Rage
4-Stoneskin, Wall of Fire

Spells Cleric:5,5,5,4,3,2
1-Nightshield, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Remove Fear, Prot from Evil
2-Lesser Restore, Resist Energy, Remove Paralysis, Aid, Defiec Vengeance
3-Prot From Energy, Remove Blindness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Dispel Magic
4-Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Recitation, Death Ward
5-Spell Resistance, Flame Strike, Raise Dead
6-Heal, CometFall

Saves (Fort/Reflex/Will):
Base: 12/5/12
Attributes: 7/6/6
Resistance: 5/5/5
Greater Hero: 4/4/4
Recitation: 2/2/2
Total: 30/22/29

To Hit:
BAB (Divine Power) 20
Str 11
Divine Favor 3
Weapon 5
Greater Hero 4
Racial Dwarf 2
Haste 1
TWF -2
PA -5
Total: +44(+39 PA)

Damage:
Strength 11
Weapon 5
Racial Dwarf 2
Divine Favor 3
Power Attack 5
Total: 26/20

Outside of Bard songs you get just about every good combat buff in the game lasting with extend 14+ minutes. The biggest downside is that the added wizard buffs come late with level 2 spells at 16, 3 at 18, and 4 at 20.

If they ever added the mystic theurge PRC that would be a great thing for this build.

As an added bonus you can with maximized and a healthy spell point pool drop the occasional fire wall/blade barrier combo and stand right in the middle of it swinging away.

Impaqt
10-31-2007, 02:39 PM
Cool Build.....

Definatly needs Level 20 to reach full potential.

You seem to be missing your Level 20 +1 Stat increase.

EinarMal
10-31-2007, 02:46 PM
Cool Build.....

Definatly needs Level 20 to reach full potential.

You seem to be missing your Level 20 +1 Stat increase.

Yeah posting the level 14 version doesn't make much sense as the 2 wizard splash is odd, so that is why I listed the whole thing out.

Do you get another increase at level 20? I did not know that.

The good thing is that you can with 11 levels of cleric and a good spell point pool pull off being the main healer for the forseeable future. Essentially it would be a "battle cleric" up to level 16 with the odd fact that you can cast a few wizard spells like jump/blur.

Really if you throw out CC and damage spells getting 11 levels of cleric allows you to fill the healer role when you have to, of course I would be on the front lines mixing it up while doing it!

Impaqt
10-31-2007, 02:53 PM
Ability Increases
Upon gaining any level divisible by four, a character increases one of his or her ability scores by 1 point. The player chooses which ability score to improve. For multiclass characters, feats and ability increases are gained according to character level, not class level.

20/4=5

I'm no 3.5 expert but I's always assume you got a stat increase at 20.

EinarMal
10-31-2007, 02:55 PM
Ability Increases
Upon gaining any level divisible by four, a character increases one of his or her ability scores by 1 point. The player chooses which ability score to improve. For multiclass characters, feats and ability increases are gained according to character level, not class level.

20/4=5

I'm no 3.5 expert but I's always assume you got a stat increase at 20.

You could well be right! I am not sure either as I have not played table top D&D since it was called "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons"! I can't remember from games like NWN if you do or not. Either way I would put it into strength if I got it!

Xyfiel
10-31-2007, 06:13 PM
You get one at 20. Also, add the following to saves:
1 reflex haste
1 will rage
2 all recitation

EinarMal
10-31-2007, 06:31 PM
You get one at 20. Also, add the following to saves:
1 reflex haste
1 will rage
2 all recitation

Thanks!

nbhs275
10-31-2007, 08:21 PM
I've been building various TWF builds incorporating self healing and buffing mainly using Bard builds. The following is a concept for a level 20 build that can buff themselves to epic proportions... It is not a Bard but a Cleric/Wizard/Fighter. It has a few buffs that Bards can't cast like 30 pt. resists, stoneskin, and jump. It also can self cast full heals all without the use of scrolls which slow down combat.

The main reason for this being that most all good buff spells are level 4 and below, and BAB is not as important for clerics with divine power.

Anyway, thought I would post it for what it's worth for comments or anyone looking for a different build that should ultimately work out quite well. The plan at the current cap is Cleric 11/Wizard 2/Fighter 1. Basically you can easily be the main cleric in the group with plenty of spell points and full healing abilities as well as dish out some DPS with TWF.

When the cap goes to 16 a level of fighter at 15 to pick up GTWF and and basically finishing out wizard the rest of the way. This is meant to be a DPS/Tank build with stoneskin, displacment, fearsome, 30 pt. resists and 400+ hit points. Obviously you might have to explain the build for PUG groups or might have some trouble getting into some of them.

Even at the 14 cap you can scroll blur easily on a caster check and use level 3 scrolls fairly reliably.

Main Goals:
TWF
Self Healing
30 pt. Resists
Displacement
Many cool buffs :)
Plenty of hit points

One note is that most/all of the to-hit damage buffs stack with Bard buffs so if a Bard is in the group it gets even better.

(28 Point Build Stats: I would dump the extra in Int/Con)
Dwarf Male Neutral Good Cleric 11/ Wizard 7/Fighter 2

Stats:
Str 16 (32 =16 +5 Levels +2 Tome +1 Enh. +6 Spell +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (22 =16 +1 Tome +5 Item)
Con 12 (24 =12 +2 Favor Tome +2 Enh. +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 8 (14 =8 + 6 Item)
Wis 14 (22 =14 +2 Enh +6 ltem)
Cha 6

Level Progression:
1-Cleric
2-Fighter
3 thru 12-Cleric
13 thru 14-Wizard
15-Fighter
16 thru 20-Wizard

Skills:
Jump or Balance (Quicken on 24/7)

Feats:
1-Toughness
2-(FB) TWF
3-Extend
6-Quicken
9-ITWF
12-IC Slashing
13-(WB) Maximize
15-(FB)GTWF
15-Mental Toughness
18-(WB) Empower
18-Improved Mental Toughness

Enhancements:
Dwarf Axe Attack II
Dwarf Axe Damage II
Dwarf Toughness IV
Dwarf Con II
Cleric Wisdom II
Cleric Life Magic IV
Fighter Critcal Accuracy I
Fighter Haste Boost I
Cleric EOZ III
Dwarf Spell Defense III
Fighter Toughness I
Fighter Strength I
Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Cleric Prayer of Life III
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Dwarf Faith I

HP:
136(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +140(Con) +22(Helm) +22 Toughness +55(Tough Enh) =435

SP:
485(11 Cleric) +295(7 Wiz) +120(Wis) +32(Int) +100(Magi) +80(EOZ III) +105(MT) +105(IMT) +15(Faith) =1337

Spells Wizard: 5,4,3,2
1-Shield, Exp Retreat, Jump, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missle
2-Blur, Scorching Ray, False Life, Repair Moderate
3-Haste, Displacement, Rage
4-Stoneskin, Wall of Fire

Spells Cleric:5,5,5,4,3,2
1-Nightshield, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Remove Fear, Prot from Evil
2-Lesser Restore, Resist Energy, Remove Paralysis, Aid, Defiec Vengeance
3-Prot From Energy, Remove Blindness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Dispel Magic
4-Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Recitation, Death Ward
5-Spell Resistance, Flame Strike, Raise Dead
6-Heal, CometFall

Saves (Fort/Reflex/Will):
Base: 12/5/12
Attributes: 7/6/6
Resistance: 5/5/5
Greater Hero: 4/4/4
Recitation: 2/2/2
Total: 30/22/29

To Hit:
BAB (Divine Power) 20
Str 11
Divine Favor 3
Recitation 2
Weapon 5
Greater Hero 4
Racial Dwarf 2
TWF -2
Total: +45

Damage:
Strength 11
Weapon 5
Racial Dwarf 2
Divine Favor 3
Total: 21/15

Outside of Bard songs you get just about every good combat buff in the game lasting with extend 14+ minutes. The biggest downside is that the added wizard buffs come late with level 2 spells at 16, 3 at 18, and 4 at 20.

If they ever added the mystic theurge PRC that would be a great thing for this build.

As an added bonus you can with max/empower and a healthy spell point pool drop the occasional fire wall/blade barrier combo and stand right in the middle of it swinging away.

Yea, but everything your doing is rather half assed. Your melee wont be better then any pure battle cleric or bard.

Your casting is horrible, with what will be considered very low spellpoints, with ability scores so low that no offensive spell you have will work.

Your healing will be horribly far behind, where all other clerics heal spells will be for 400 on a non-crit, (1200+ on a crit) yours will still be at the level that only a level 11 cleric would have.

Your saves are at the level that a current battle cleric would have.

Even your main goals arent met in a useful way.

30 resists come on items, and really isnt a huge build point.
Self healing? your is very very weak.
Stoneskill comes on scrolls at the same strength as what you can cast, and also comes on the the DQ at 120, which you can use a UMD free battle cleric.
Your DP wont last much more then 2 minutes, where a 17/3 cleric/paladin BC would have a 4min DP.

Your displacment will be bearly more then a minute.

Yourhitpoints are very low for a lvl 20. My BC with just 6more levels of cleric would be at 450 easily. Even my balance bard will break 400(324+36 bard+62 con=422). Plus my bard will have as good, if not better healing, buffs, Damage, Defense, SP, CC, and even more utility. Please try and point out where a build like this would be better then a near-pure cleric or bard. I need something simple to shoot down.

EinarMal
11-01-2007, 07:49 AM
Yea, but everything your doing is rather half assed. Your melee wont be better then any pure battle cleric or bard.

Very true my fighting will be on par with any normal battle cleric which is pretty good in my opinion. I will have much better defense with displacement/stoneskin and rage/haste.

Your casting is horrible, with what will be considered very low spellpoints, with ability scores so low that no offensive spell you have will work.

Spell points are about the same as any pure cleric BC since Wizards/Clerics use the same progression. My casting is fine for what I am doing which is casting self buffs, healing, and the occasional DD spell that normally do not require saves. If I cast offensive spells then it would be firewall/blade barrier which should still work fine. This is not a main focus of the build, I would not typically cast a lot of these spells.

Your healing will be horribly far behind, where all other clerics heal spells will be for 400 on a non-crit, (1200+ on a crit) yours will still be at the level that only a level 11 cleric would have.

Not meant to be a main healer at level 20, definitely more fighting than healing. I can still toss out 231 hit point heals which are good enough for me.

Your saves are at the level that a current battle cleric would have.

Saves are about the same as a typical battle cleric at level 14 as well. The difference is my fort save will be a little lower at 20 versus a typical BC but not by much. The are only minor differences in saves between a pure cleric and this build.

Even your main goals arent met in a useful way.

30 resists come on items, and really isnt a huge build point.
Self healing? your is very very weak.
Stoneskill comes on scrolls at the same strength as what you can cast, and also comes on the the DQ at 120, which you can use a UMD free battle cleric.
Your DP wont last much more then 2 minutes, where a 17/3 cleric/paladin BC would have a 4min DP.

Hmm I have no problem re-casting buffs more often I have enough spell points to do it. How can 230+ hit point self heals be very very weak? I personally think there is a big difference between casting stoneskin/blur/displacement/haste while fighting versus trying to UMD scrolls. The duration of them without extend and the interuption of combat makes them not remotely comparable in my opinion.

Your displacment will be bearly more then a minute.

It will last exactly 7*6*2 = 84 seconds. Again I just re-cast it not a big deal. Long lasting buffs will just tend to get dispelled anyway.

Yourhitpoints are very low for a lvl 20. My BC with just 6more levels of cleric would be at 450 easily. Even my balance bard will break 400(324+36 bard+62 con=422).

I will end up with about the same hit points as a typical dwarf BC minus about 24 for the wizard/fighter levels 48 versus 72. That is minor in my opinion.

Plus my bard will have as good, if not better healing, buffs, Damage, Defense, SP, CC, and even more utility. Please try and point out where a build like this would be better then a near-pure cleric or bard. I need something simple to shoot down.

Wow such a great attitude, and you wonder why we all love you so much! If I could hand out a prize for DDO poster attitude MVP you would win it hands down! Congratulations on such a positive and stellar attitude you rock!

Back to the question. In terms of self buffing defense the Bard is not close to this build. In addition to all the same Bard buffs, I can also cast spell resistance, death ward, stoneskin(scrolls are not the same), 30 pt. resists, prot. from energy, shield, and many other useful things. It is hard to fit all those items into a build and still have any slots left for other things. Also all my combat buffs divine power/favor/recitation stack with Bard buffs so if a Bard was in my party I would actually be ahead of them.

As far as versus a pure or more pure battle cleric it is a trade off. I am trading some healing spells (most BC's aren't great offensive casters) for more self-cast defensive spells. I can cast displacement/stoneskin which gives me far more effective hit points than a traditional battle cleric. Offensively they are about the same, except I can haste myself and the group as well as rage.

I honestly don't care about your Bard, as I already have a better one and don't need to build another ;)

Have a great day!


Replies in red and thanks for the postive attitude as always, your a ray of sunshine in an otherwise dark cloud that are the DDO boards!

nbhs275
11-01-2007, 07:06 PM
the bard has everything is build does and far more

your Stone skins are the strength of a scroll. A bard can umd it.

Bard has 20*6*2= 240 seconds=4 minute displacments, which is nearly x3 times the efficency for the mana.

Everything you can do, a pure bard 20 can do, and do it much much much better. You have LESS in nearly every ability then the most CURRENT builds do. If you compare this mess against a good battle bard or cleric thats LEVEL 14, you would most likely STILL be behind on everything accept hitpoints.

Im sorry, but if your gunna call something "ultimate" or "perfect" or "uber" or anything like that and its a piece of junk, im not gunna pat you on the back. Just because you made it doesnt make it good.

And i think your missing the point on the buff timer thing still. Longer the buff lasts, less mana it takes overall. Which means more ability to heal, cast offensively and all that good stuff. While a reall battle cleric will only have to rebuff every four minutes or so, you have to twice as often, twice the mana consumed. Nevermind the fact your going to have 1/2 of the mana pool of the battlecleric, and your heals will take twice as many castings.
Also, i loved this part:


As far as versus a pure or more pure battle cleric it is a trade off. I am trading some healing spells (most BC's aren't great offensive casters) for more self-cast defensive spells. I can cast displacement/stoneskin which gives me far more effective hit points than a traditional battle cleric. Offensively they are about the same, except I can haste myself and the group as well as rage.

A good battlecleric has

A. Nearly as many spellpoints at 14 as you do at 20,

B. Great healing, as its one of the clerics best abilities. A level 14 BC is yet again ahead of you even without the 6 extra levels.

C. Stoneskin isnt the be all end all in defence, and your casting of it only is worth 70 points. The DQ ring has 3 charges of 120 SS, which as i said before is much better then yours.

D. A minute of haste isnt much of an ability too tought, its about as good as a stack of pots. Same thing with rage, pots worth just as well.

E. Offensively your considerably far behind, seeing most(not all) battleclerics can cast effective offensive spells. Plus they will have all the higher end cleric spells, which would be a shame to miss out on.

So let me just repeat this, calling me names because im honest and telling you this build is a waste of time, is gunna prove your point as much as chopping your arm off will improve your golf game.

nbhs275
11-01-2007, 07:08 PM
Also note: If you make a projection build of 20, those extra 6 levels should show a large improvment over current standards. Simply "almost" meeting what currently is average is pretty sad.

EinarMal
11-01-2007, 07:41 PM
Also note: If you make a projection build of 20, those extra 6 levels should show a large improvment over current standards. Simply "almost" meeting what currently is average is pretty sad.

Once again thank you for a great post have a nice day!

EinarMal
11-01-2007, 08:33 PM
the bard has everything is build does and far more

Good thing it is not a Bard....

your Stone skins are the strength of a scroll. A bard can umd it.

Scrolls are slow and stop fighting longer not the same as casting....

Bard has 20*6*2= 240 seconds=4 minute displacments, which is nearly x3 times the efficency for the mana.

That's ok I have enough mana to re-cast it....

Everything you can do, a pure bard 20 can do, and do it much much much better. You have LESS in nearly every ability then the most CURRENT builds do. If you compare this mess against a good battle bard or cleric thats LEVEL 14, you would most likely STILL be behind on everything accept hitpoints.

This is just wrong, as you always factor in raid gear and +2 tomes on every stat which I did not. At 14 this build compares very well to Battle Clerics and Bards I just did not list the stats at 14. The reason why it looks similar is I am assuming only current gear (and not even raid loot in the numbers).

And i think your missing the point on the buff timer thing still. Longer the buff lasts, less mana it takes overall. Which means more ability to heal, cast offensively and all that good stuff. While a reall battle cleric will only have to rebuff every four minutes or so, you have to twice as often, twice the mana consumed. Nevermind the fact your going to have 1/2 of the mana pool of the battlecleric, and your heals will take twice as many castings.

I understand buff timers quite well thanks though! I don't mind re-casting them and I have enough mana to keep them up between shrines and heal myself with spells.

Again your mana numbers are off, essentially this build will end up with the same number of spell points as a level 18 cleric. Wizards and Clerics have the same spell point progression.

A good battlecleric has

A. Nearly as many spellpoints at 14 as you do at 20,

Depends on the build really my build has pretty much the same number of spell points at level 14 as a Cleric 13/1 a very common BC build..

B. Great healing, as its one of the clerics best abilities. A level 14 BC is yet again ahead of you even without the 6 extra levels.

Well Cleric 14 > Cleric 11 so yeah that is a pretty profound observation. Again not supposed to be a Cleric really just using the buff/healing spells of the class.

C. Stoneskin isnt the be all end all in defence, and your casting of it only is worth 70 points. The DQ ring has 3 charges of 120 SS, which as i said before is much better then yours.

Raid loot probably will never find....

D. A minute of haste isnt much of an ability too tought, its about as good as a stack of pots. Same thing with rage, pots worth just as well.

Those are AOE so benefit me and the entire party DPS....

E. Offensively your considerably far behind, seeing most(not all) battleclerics can cast effective offensive spells. Plus they will have all the higher end cleric spells, which would be a shame to miss out on.

Actually for my purposes nothing beyond 11 is of any use. I only want cleric buffs and the ability to cast heal on myself thats it.

So let me just repeat this, calling me names because im honest and telling you this build is a waste of time, is gunna prove your point as much as chopping your arm off will improve your golf game.

Wow really constructive way to put it! Let me try to explain it to you, there is a reason this isn't in the cleric forum (not really like a cleric) and certainly given I have 0 Bard levels not a Bard surprisingly.

This is the ultimate buff fighter, key word fighter. Meaning I fight, and can buff myself with a TON of useful self-cast buffs. I also can heal myself, and others in an emergency.



Replies in red...

I don't care about offensive spells, I took a few and will use them on occasion but that is a minor point of the build really.

What it can do is maintain a very high to hit, good damage output through TWF, and good defense all via buff spells from Cleric/Wizard spells. The real comparison for a build like this is simply a TWF Ranger or Fighter really. That is what I am going to be doing most of the time.

So how does it compare to that. Well damage output is pretty similiar as with buffs I can get pretty close to what a Fighter would have with Divine Power, Divine Favor, Rage, Haste etc....

Defensively I am much better off than most TWF fighters/rangers as I can stoneskin/displace/spell resistance/many others... to mitigate damage and have plenty of hit points as well. I also can cast 230+ self heals on myself and use heal scrolls so I am totally self sufficient and do not need a cleric at all. In a pinch I could also pull of being a cleric with heal scrolls/spell if needed. I find tossing the occasional healing spell as you fight to be a beneficial thing to do, especially considering it is coming from a front line fighter.

Note no where did I say this was the ultimate battle cleric or battle bard, it is niether. It is simply the best self buffing/healing TWF build that you can build in my opinion. The only competition would be from a battle Bard build, but the defense/utility of this build is more in my opinion as Cleric 11 gets you so many great spells. The best part is if I do have a Bard in the group with song buffs they stack.

nbhs275
11-01-2007, 10:26 PM
but your saying that your the best buffed fighter, which you wont be. A cleric or bard has you beat. Even if your not a bard your still in the same category. Im sorry i have nothing nice to say about a build that is level 20 and running the numbers of a level 14.

Now if you wanted to call it level 20 concept: The worst buff fighter that i will make blanket statement defenses of, then i would let you get away with it.

The "plenty of mana" arguement is kinda lame man. Your basically saying that you'll have enough in the perfect enviroment, where your not going to have to do alot of healing, your not going to be debuffed or die or anything like that. Simply, your 1300 sp is what capped 13/1 cleric/pallies have now. So they not only have 500+ raw mana over you at 20, but also cast at x3 efficiency compared to you. Their saves are higher, their buffs last longer, their healing is better, their combat is better, their casting is altogether better, and they have backup abilities stronger then many of your main abilities. Simply put, a stack of potions and scrolls emulates half of your build.

Half assed buffs do not equal the best buffed, especially when your missing out on the +10 damage/+10 to-hit bard songs will most likely reprocent.

EinarMal
11-02-2007, 06:38 AM
but your saying that your the best buffed fighter, which you wont be. A cleric or bard has you beat. Even if your not a bard your still in the same category. Im sorry i have nothing nice to say about a build that is level 20 and running the numbers of a level 14.

This is not true, a cleric cannot have me beat I have all the same combat buffs. A TWF Bard has very similar DPS, it is slightly higher +3 Divine Favor versus Bard buffs IF you assume the Bard is using divine power clickies constantly (most don't). Seriously I know what works in combat AT LEVEL 14 this build has 30+ to hit, 300+ hit points, and solid DPS that is all you need to fight well and is very similiar to Bards/Battle Clerics.

The real difference between a Bard and this build is the heal spell and heal scrolls (most TWF Bards cannot get UMD high enough for those) and other good defensive buffs from the Cleric side of things.

Now if you wanted to call it level 20 concept: The worst buff fighter that i will make blanket statement defenses of, then i would let you get away with it.

This is just a lame attack no comment.... you post no numbers to back up anything you say and clearly do not even bother calculation things like to-hit and damage numbers (which I have) to back this up. You also conveniently switch builds to whatever suits your comparison so are literally comparing each aspect of my build to 20 others best characteristic.

The "plenty of mana" arguement is kinda lame man. Your basically saying that you'll have enough in the perfect enviroment, where your not going to have to do alot of healing, your not going to be debuffed or die or anything like that. Simply, your 1300 sp is what capped 13/1 cleric/pallies have now. So they not only have 500+ raw mana over you at 20, but also cast at x3 efficiency compared to you. Their saves are higher, their buffs last longer, their healing is better, their combat is better, their casting is altogether better, and they have backup abilities stronger then many of your main abilities. Simply put, a stack of potions and scrolls emulates half of your build.

Again I've done the calculations for what I need between shrines and mana is not an issue. Do some math and post some numbers and then maybe I will take you seriously. You keep switching builds and comparing one aspect of my build to many others and don't post any numbers to back it up.

Half assed buffs do not equal the best buffed, especially when your missing out on the +10 damage/+10 to-hit bard songs will most likely reprocent.

Ugh...

This build is very similar to the arcane psycho build in many ways. Nick's build is a warforged wizard that buffs and self heals while fighting. My build is a Dwarf Cleric/Wizard that buffs and self heals while fighting. They have about the same number of hit points, saves are about the same, DPS is about the same, and buffs are similar if you compared them both at level 20. I went cleric for the healing because I chose Dwarf over warforged. It really isn't that hard of a concept to understand.....

Again just so you understand this is not a "battle cleric", it is a TWF build that can self heal and use offensive/defensive buffs. I don't want to heal others, that is not the point. Given that 1200 spell points is more than enough to cast what buffs I need to fight and the occasional heal spell along with heal scrolls. I get by with far less spell points on my Battle Bard (~700) without any issues at all casting the same types of buffs.

EinarMal
11-02-2007, 06:54 AM
Ultimate Buff Fighter = Melee character that can cast more useful extended self buffs from spell points than any other build including self heals.

nbhs275
11-02-2007, 11:18 AM
Ok, Drow Cleric 17/ Paladin 3

Stats:

str 28 (16 base +6 spell, +2 tome, +2 rage, +2 level)
dex 24 ( 12 base +6 item, +2 enhancment, +2 tome)
con 20 ( 10 base+2 tome +6 item, +2 rage)
int 10
wis 32 ( 14 base +6 item +3 tome +4 enhancment, +3 level)
cha 20 (10 base +6 item +3 tome +1 enhancment)

SP: 1999 =1125 base + 105 MT + 100 IMT + 319 Wisdom +200 Skiver + 150 EoZ V

HP 320 = 20 base +10 draconic + 102 cleric + 30 paladin + 30 GFL + 100 con + 28 toughness

AC

10 base
10 armor (KDS)
6 Dex
5 Protection
7 MHS
2 Paladin
2 choasguard
3 chattering ring
4 natural
1 haste
2 Recitation
_____________
52 AC

Attack

20 BaB
9 str
3 DF
5 weapon
2 racial
4 GH
1 haste
-5 PA
___________
39/39/44/49/54

< Not: recitation doesnt stack with HoGF for saves or skills, and doesnt stack with DF for attack. They are all luck bonuses where the highest bonus applies. Infact HoGF is not necessary for any of these abilities, but it is constant and much faster to type the recitation>

Damage<main hande>
1d6 base
5 weapon
9 str
3 DF
2 racial
5 PA
25-30 15-20/x2

Saves:

Will : 39 =11 base +11 wis +5 resist +2 hogf +4 gh + 5 DG +1 AOC
Fort: 35 =13 base +5 con +5 resist +2 Hogf +4 gh +5 DG +1 AOC
Reflex: 30 = 6 base +7 dex +5 resist +2 Hogf +4 gh +5 DG +1 AOC

Skills:

UMD: 30 UMD: 11 ranks +4 GH +2 HOGF +5 Cha +5 7FG + 3 SF UMD
Concentrate: 49 : 23 ranks +4 GH +2 HoGF +5 con +15 item)

Feats:

1st MT
3rd Toughness
6th Extend
9th PA
12th IC: Piercing
15th IMT
18th SF: UMD

Heal spell

170 base: *50% sup devotion 6 item, *50% Healing enhancments, 25% crit chance, for x3 damage

for

340 base, 1020 crit


Can UMD alot of scrolls, including Displacement, haste, rage, blur, stoneskin, teleport, DD, and even GT if needed.

Can tank with an AC far higher then your build, comparable melee, far superior casting, healing, same spells available, more mana efficient, and FAR better saves.

Also remember that your going to fail and waste alot of mana in any kind of armor using those wizard spells.

The only thing your build has going for it over this one is hitpoints, which i could easily get by both lowering my wisdom 2 points and spending those 6 on con( + 40 hp) and wearing a minos helm( +22 hp).

EinarMal
11-02-2007, 11:39 AM
Ok, Drow Cleric 17/ Paladin 3

Stats:

str 28 (16 base +6 spell, +2 tome, +2 rage, +2 level)
dex 24 ( 12 base +6 item, +2 enhancment, +2 tome)
con 20 ( 10 base+2 tome +6 item, +2 rage)
int 10
wis 32 ( 14 base +6 item +3 tome +4 enhancment, +3 level)
cha 20 (10 base +6 item +3 tome +1 enhancment)

SP: 1999 =1125 base + 105 MT + 100 IMT + 319 Wisdom +200 Skiver + 150 EoZ V

HP 320 = 20 base +10 draconic + 102 cleric + 30 paladin + 30 GFL + 100 con + 28 toughness

AC

10 base
10 armor (KDS)
6 Dex
5 Protection
7 MHS
2 Paladin
2 choasguard
3 chattering ring
4 natural
1 haste
2 Recitation
_____________
52 AC

Attack

20 BaB
9 str
3 DF
5 weapon
2 racial
4 GH
1 haste
-5 PA
___________
39/39/44/49/54

< Not: recitation doesnt stack with HoGF for saves or skills, and doesnt stack with DF for attack. They are all luck bonuses where the highest bonus applies. Infact HoGF is not necessary for any of these abilities, but it is constant and much faster to type the recitation>

Damage<main hande>
1d6 base
5 weapon
9 str
3 DF
2 racial
5 PA
25-30 15-20/x2

Saves:

Will : 39 =11 base +11 wis +5 resist +2 hogf +4 gh + 5 DG +1 AOC
Fort: 35 =13 base +5 con +5 resist +2 Hogf +4 gh +5 DG +1 AOC
Reflex: 30 = 6 base +7 dex +5 resist +2 Hogf +4 gh +5 DG +1 AOC

Skills:

UMD: 30 UMD: 11 ranks +4 GH +2 HOGF +5 Cha +5 7FG + 3 SF UMD
Concentrate: 49 : 23 ranks +4 GH +2 HoGF +5 con +15 item)

Feats:

1st MT
3rd Toughness
6th Extend
9th PA
12th IC: Piercing
15th IMT
18th SF: UMD

Heal spell

170 base: *50&#37; sup devotion 6 item, *50% Healing enhancments, 25% crit chance, for x3 damage

for

340 base, 1020 crit


Can UMD alot of scrolls, including Displacement, haste, rage, blur, stoneskin, teleport, DD, and even GT if needed.

Can tank with an AC far higher then your build, comparable melee, far superior casting, healing, same spells available, more mana efficient, and FAR better saves.

Also remember that your going to fail and waste alot of mana in any kind of armor using those wizard spells.

The only thing your build has going for it over this one is hitpoints, which i could easily get by both lowering my wisdom 2 points and spending those 6 on con( + 40 hp) and wearing a minos helm( +22 hp).

So roll it up good luck...again way to put in a bunch of raid/high end gear and +3/+2 tomes which I did not and compare it to my build which has none I can also wield skiver etc...lol.

Good catch on the recitation I will fix that.

DPS for that build is not close to mine your comparing a sword & board build to a TWF build. You are comparing a TWF melee build to some kind of balanced battle cleric build they are totally different. Again I can make up a cookie cutter battle cleric as well as you can that is not what this is.

I don't care about AC I have stoneskin/displacement that is not what I am going for. I actually plan on wearing a fearsome robe.

Look I will simplify things for you so maybe you can understand.

1. This is a melee build not a cleric or healer
2. As a melee build you need three things, the ability to hit mobs, damage them, and stay alive.
3. I have 30+ to-hit at 14 and over 40 at level 20 (check)
4. TWF w/ GTWF and good damage bonus (check)
5. I can dispalce/resist/stoneskin/shield/nightsheild/haste/rage and many other buffs to provide excellent spell defense and self healing (check)

End of story it is a solid buff based melee build the end, it is the ULTIMATE BUFF FIGHTER BABY! THIS IS A TWF MELEE BUILD NOT A CLERIC OR CASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW scrolling haste/displacement is laughable good luck with that 30 second duration running out while you are chain scroll casting them hehe!

nbhs275
11-02-2007, 01:19 PM
So roll it up good luck...again way to put in a bunch of raid/high end gear and +3/+2 tomes which I did not and compare it to my build which has none I can also wield skiver etc...lol.

Good catch on the recitation I will fix that.

DPS for that build is not close to mine your comparing a sword & board build to a TWF build. You are comparing a TWF melee build to some kind of balanced battle cleric build they are totally different. Again I can make up a cookie cutter battle cleric as well as you can that is not what this is.

I don't care about AC I have stoneskin/displacement that is not what I am going for. I actually plan on wearing a fearsome robe.

Look I will simplify things for you so maybe you can understand.

1. This is a melee build not a cleric or healer
2. As a melee build you need three things, the ability to hit mobs, damage them, and stay alive.
3. I have 30+ to-hit at 14 and over 40 at level 20 (check)
4. TWF w/ GTWF and good damage bonus (check)
5. I can dispalce/resist/stoneskin/shield/nightsheild/haste/rage and many other buffs to provide excellent spell defense and self healing (check)

End of story it is a solid buff based melee build the end, it is the ULTIMATE BUFF FIGHTER BABY! THIS IS A TWF MELEE BUILD NOT A CLERIC OR CASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW scrolling haste/displacement is laughable good luck with that 30 second duration running out while you are chain scroll casting them hehe!

With no true defence, all it will take is one or two dispels and your out of a job. Try standing up against 5-7 mobs when your buffless. Your build may look almost worthwhile when you factor in all your low caster level buffs, but once you face a casting mob you will be going the way of the doe doe... Could also compare this entire build to my balance bard, he will come out far ahead too.

TWF isnt as strong as you would like to think man, not when your using axes. If your breaking out piercing then yea, its worth it, but slashing DPS is weaker with TWF(even on khopeshs).

nbhs275
11-02-2007, 01:25 PM
With no true defence, all it will take is one or two dispels and your out of a job. Try standing up against 5-7 mobs when your buffless. Your build may look almost worthwhile when you factor in all your low caster level buffs, but once you face a casting mob you will be going the way of the doe doe... Could also compare this entire build to my balance bard, he will come out far ahead too.

TWF isnt as strong as you would like to think man, not when your using axes. If your breaking out piercing then yea, its worth it, but slashing DPS is weaker with TWF(even on khopeshs).

Also, the only pieces of raid loot in there that actually changed anything where tomes and the gloves. So drop the +5 from 7FG to +3 from a Delera necklace. WOOO.

Tomes?

get a +2 from 1750

Get a +2 from 20 dragon runs

Get a +3 from 20 reaver runs

Get a +2 from 20 titan runs

Get a +2 from 20 DQ runs

Has nothing to do with luck. If your level 20 and your not raiding then your going to be weaker and there isnt a point to grief others because they have something you didnt bother to try and get.

EinarMal
11-02-2007, 05:40 PM
Also, the only pieces of raid loot in there that actually changed anything where tomes and the gloves. So drop the +5 from 7FG to +3 from a Delera necklace. WOOO.

Tomes?

get a +2 from 1750

Get a +2 from 20 dragon runs

Get a +3 from 20 reaver runs

Get a +2 from 20 titan runs

Get a +2 from 20 DQ runs

Has nothing to do with luck. If your level 20 and your not raiding then your going to be weaker and there isnt a point to grief others because they have something you didnt bother to try and get.

Hehe just pointing out most of the extra mana you are talking about came from items not the build. If I added a +2/+3 wisdom and +2/+3 int tome and another 100 spell points from skiver I would come in a lot closer to your numbers that was my point. If I had those tomes and really wanted more spell points I could get 200-300 more by counting those things in and adjusting some enhancements to boost wisdom/int.

EinarMal
11-02-2007, 05:43 PM
With no true defence, all it will take is one or two dispels and your out of a job. Try standing up against 5-7 mobs when your buffless. Your build may look almost worthwhile when you factor in all your low caster level buffs, but once you face a casting mob you will be going the way of the doe doe... Could also compare this entire build to my balance bard, he will come out far ahead too.

TWF isnt as strong as you would like to think man, not when your using axes. If your breaking out piercing then yea, its worth it, but slashing DPS is weaker with TWF(even on khopeshs).

What TWF/two hander has any other defense? Get dispelled then you re-cast displacmenet/stoneskin and keep fighting. That is no different then pretty much every DPS battle Bard or Cleric out there it has nothing to do with this build really. Most of the time I will probably wear a +6 str item so I don't have to have DP unless I need the extra BAB. So, for the most part if I get dispelled then really it is just re-casting displacement/stoneskin (mainly) and maybe divine favor. Not that big a deal really and something pretty much every Bard has to deal with, or any buff fighter for that matter like a battle wizard/sorc etc....there are plenty of those builds around as well.

Again it is not a Bard/Cleric but a melee TWF fighter I simply don't care about spells that are not heals/buffs. So comparing it to a casting/fighting Bard is meaningless.

TWF w/ GTWF does add significant damage over going rapier/shield. A Dwarven Axe with racial enhancements is a pretty nice weapon. Maybe we can bug A_Sheep to put it into his calculator but I can tell you that is significantly higher.

Let me try to explain the motivation a bit, I like dealing good DPS, but I hate not having self healing and some sort of defense. I also like TWF I like the DPS it gives, the weapon flexibility, and the ease of targeting what you want to hit and not what you don't. I already have a TWF Bard as you know that mostly fits this, but wanted to try something different. This build has more hit points (Dwarf over Drow) and some better defensive spell buffs compared to any Bard build you simply can't cast 30 pt resits, spell resistance, death ward and other things. Now it's true that pretty much everything is on some item or other but it is hard to fit all that stuff into only so many gear slots.

This guy can pretty much run through a quest naked, with a couple of stat items and that is pretty much all he needs outside of a couple of good axes. Again no build has the kind of self buff flexibilty that this build would have. There is no doubt it will be an effective character. It has high enough to hit, good damage, enough hit points, and about as good as defense as you can get while going for DPS with TWF/THF. What other defense do you suggest really AC is pretty much out in that case. The best surrogate are good buffs and this guy has every single good defensive buff in the game, all castable with extend, lasting over a minute minimum available instantly (quicken).

That is why he is the ultimate buff fighter, he can cast basically every single good offensive/defensive spell buff in the game, all instantly (quicken) and lasting long enough between shrines. To me there is no comparison to have ~1:30 displacements/haste plus longer lasting cleric buffs available that is awesome to me.

Think about when fully buffed:
Full BAB Buff (DP)
+6 Strength (DP)
+4 AC (Shield)
10 DR (Stoneskin)
50&#37; Miss (Displacement)
+3 Hit/DMG (Divine Power)
Fast Attack (Haste)
30 Point Resists (Resist Energy)
Absorb 70 Energy (Protection from Energy)
23 Spell Resistance (Spell Resistance)
Immunity to Death Effects (Death Ward)
+3 Deflection Bonus (Shield of Faith)

That is sick.....I have total item flexibilty. All I need is fearsome, heavy fort, a couple of stat items (con really, str would protect against dispel) and some weapons. Anything else is totally optional.

Oh and BTW I can hit myself with 230+ heals and heal scrolls for pretty much infinite hit points. How are you going to kill this guy? Compare that to your normal everyday figher/pally/barb sure the fighter/barb has higher DPS but better have a lot of pots/high end items along or a pocket cleric to keep up with this guy.

nbhs275
11-02-2007, 10:46 PM
[QUOTE=EinarMal;1417275]

Think about when fully buffed:
Full BAB Buff (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+6 Strength (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+4 AC (Shield) <Which the good battlecleric has with an additional +3>
10 DR (Stoneskin) <Which the good battlecleric has>
50% Miss (Displacement) <Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Hit/DMG (Divine Power)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Fast Attack (Haste)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 Point Resists (Resist Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Absorb 70 Energy (Protection from Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has +50>

23 Spell Resistance <Which the good battlecleric has +6>
(Spell Resistance)
Immunity to Death Effects (Death Ward)<Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Deflection Bonus (Shield of Faith)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 QUOTE]

Everything you have the other build has, with no compromises. All of those abilities are easily emulated through items, potions or scrolls.

Protection pots, haste pots, +6 str item, +5 protection items, Tangleroot goggles, stoneskin scrolls, seal of earth, displacment scrolls.

The name of the game at twenty is not going to be how many weak buffs you can have running in any 1 minute period, but how many strong buffs you can keep running at 4 minutes a pop.

Your build is losing out for trying to do everything. Stick to pure battlecleric for soloing, and then when you have an arcane in the party you can get your oh so great displacment and stoneskin. Fat lot they will do you, with mobs having increasingly more addy weapons, trueseeing, dispelling, and debuffing.

Your betting on alot of weak components somehow creating a very strong machine. Which unless a mystic theurge ability is implemented, just is not going to happen.

EinarMal
11-03-2007, 06:27 AM
[quote=EinarMal;1417275]

Think about when fully buffed:
Full BAB Buff (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+6 Strength (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+4 AC (Shield) <Which the good battlecleric has with an additional +3>
10 DR (Stoneskin) <Which the good battlecleric has>
50&#37; Miss (Displacement) <Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Hit/DMG (Divine Power)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Fast Attack (Haste)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 Point Resists (Resist Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Absorb 70 Energy (Protection from Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has +50>

23 Spell Resistance <Which the good battlecleric has +6>
(Spell Resistance)
Immunity to Death Effects (Death Ward)<Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Deflection Bonus (Shield of Faith)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 QUOTE]

Everything you have the other build has, with no compromises. All of those abilities are easily emulated through items, potions or scrolls.

Protection pots, haste pots, +6 str item, +5 protection items, Tangleroot goggles, stoneskin scrolls, seal of earth, displacment scrolls.

The name of the game at twenty is not going to be how many weak buffs you can have running in any 1 minute period, but how many strong buffs you can keep running at 4 minutes a pop.

Your build is losing out for trying to do everything. Stick to pure battlecleric for soloing, and then when you have an arcane in the party you can get your oh so great displacment and stoneskin. Fat lot they will do you, with mobs having increasingly more addy weapons, trueseeing, dispelling, and debuffing.

Your betting on alot of weak components somehow creating a very strong machine. Which unless a mystic theurge ability is implemented, just is not going to happen.

I don't think I have ever had an arcane wizard/sorc ever cast displacement on me during a quest good luck with that seriously have you ever partied with a caster that was concerned with keeping your displacement up?

The components are not weak, most all the buffs I listed are not level dependent other than duration. You keep making a big deal about 1:30 not being long enough well I can tell you from experience it is not a problem. Duration, as long as it is not 30 seconds from a scroll is a minor issue. That is plenty of time.

I really don't think you get it, you keep comparing it to a battle cleric, I keep telling you it is not a cleric, and then you ignore me and tell me how much better a healer a cleric is or how cleric can do x.

If I wanted a battle cleric I could build an 18/2 cleric/fighter or 17/3 cleric/pally although I would go two handed instead.

What this build does is TWF, and given that style has the best spell defense possible while doing that. Again that is it, he fights, using buffs which I can maintain between shrines. I am sorry but depending on someone else in the party to keep me displaced so I can fight is not reasonable to me.

I keep telling you that scrolling haste/displacement especially is not the same. HAve you ever actually tried to use displacement scrolls in a quest? I have and it is a total pain and not even really practical unless it is a final boss fight or other and everyone is standing around buffing for it.

I like to play this game fast, not stand around trying to buff myself with scrolls continually for 30 second duration.

Cleric 11 is all you need for my purposes, the extra levels get me nothing for what I want to do. I don't need 17, 18 levels of cleric just 11. Mystic Theurge would be nice but it is hardly necessary about the best thing would be a little stronger heal spell and longer buffs and that is about it. Most of the extra spells I would get would not be that useful since again I am only interested in Buff/Healing spells.

nbhs275
11-03-2007, 10:22 AM
[quote=nbhs275;1417492]

I don't think I have ever had an arcane wizard/sorc ever cast displacement on me during a quest good luck with that seriously have you ever partied with a caster that was concerned with keeping your displacement up?

The components are not weak, most all the buffs I listed are not level dependent other than duration. You keep making a big deal about 1:30 not being long enough well I can tell you from experience it is not a problem. Duration, as long as it is not 30 seconds from a scroll is a minor issue. That is plenty of time.

I really don't think you get it, you keep comparing it to a battle cleric, I keep telling you it is not a cleric, and then you ignore me and tell me how much better a healer a cleric is or how cleric can do x.

If I wanted a battle cleric I could build an 18/2 cleric/fighter or 17/3 cleric/pally although I would go two handed instead.

What this build does is TWF, and given that style has the best spell defense possible while doing that. Again that is it, he fights, using buffs which I can maintain between shrines. I am sorry but depending on someone else in the party to keep me displaced so I can fight is not reasonable to me.

I keep telling you that scrolling haste/displacement especially is not the same. HAve you ever actually tried to use displacement scrolls in a quest? I have and it is a total pain and not even really practical unless it is a final boss fight or other and everyone is standing around buffing for it.

I like to play this game fast, not stand around trying to buff myself with scrolls continually for 30 second duration.

Cleric 11 is all you need for my purposes, the extra levels get me nothing for what I want to do. I don't need 17, 18 levels of cleric just 11. Mystic Theurge would be nice but it is hardly necessary about the best thing would be a little stronger heal spell and longer buffs and that is about it. Most of the extra spells I would get would not be that useful since again I am only interested in Buff/Healing spells.

I often through a good melee a displacment when they ask for it or if i think they can use it. Because good builds dont have just enough mana to get by, they have enough mana to get by for themself and be able to openly help someone else.

So are you gimping the build because you dont play well with others or?

EinarMal
11-03-2007, 10:57 AM
So are you gimping the build because you dont play well with others or?

See it is these kind of negative and silly statements that cause people to really dislike your posts and builds. Rarely is anything so black and white as you seem to believe. Good luck, but seriously I am done with you. Don't like it then don't do it.

nbhs275
11-03-2007, 11:33 AM
See it is these kind of negative and silly statements that cause people to really dislike your posts and builds. Rarely is anything so black and white as you seem to believe. Good luck, but seriously I am done with you. Don't like it then don't do it.

Where is big thread telling me that im a jerk? im sorry that you don't like the feedback i gave your build. But if its awful im not going to big you a gold star and hang it on the fridge like im your mother. If you post something for critic, and claim it to be far superior to what others should and would be, and it isnt, then i will call you on it.

I dont make everything look black in white, you seem to have us mixed up. You said that your buffs are good and that you have enough.

Then i point out that they are relatively weak, short, and that your going to be losing alot of mana to upkeep buffing. I support my arguement with both numbers and other information. All your replys have been almost childish, wordy embelishments of "nu uh! its right and great because i said so!"

You have yet to show me your magic math that says your spell points will be enough, or to explain how your 70 point stoneskins are any better then my 70 stoneskins. Or how your 30 resists are better then my 30 resists. Or how a minute and a half of displacment is as good as 4 minutes. If your arguement is that duration is void in this comparison, then you cannot make the arguement that a minute and a half is better then 30 seconds.

Do you understand debate? there isnt anything personal here, just me telling you the honest truth about what you have made. Im sorry i didnt sugar coat my reply. I guess i should of been gentle with your ego.

EinarMal
11-03-2007, 12:50 PM
Where is big thread telling me that im a jerk? im sorry that you don't like the feedback i gave your build. But if its awful im not going to big you a gold star and hang it on the fridge like im your mother. If you post something for critic, and claim it to be far superior to what others should and would be, and it isnt, then i will call you on it.

I dont make everything look black in white, you seem to have us mixed up. You said that your buffs are good and that you have enough.

Then i point out that they are relatively weak, short, and that your going to be losing alot of mana to upkeep buffing. I support my arguement with both numbers and other information. All your replys have been almost childish, wordy embelishments of "nu uh! its right and great because i said so!"

You have yet to show me your magic math that says your spell points will be enough, or to explain how your 70 point stoneskins are any better then my 70 stoneskins. Or how your 30 resists are better then my 30 resists. Or how a minute and a half of displacment is as good as 4 minutes. If your arguement is that duration is void in this comparison, then you cannot make the arguement that a minute and a half is better then 30 seconds.

Do you understand debate? there isnt anything personal here, just me telling you the honest truth about what you have made. Im sorry i didnt sugar coat my reply. I guess i should of been gentle with your ego.

Civility is what it is called....I could care less if you criticize the build, using words like gimp and implying that I can't play the game are something else entirely.