PDA

View Full Version : The Rogue Love Thread.



Sydril
10-26-2007, 11:09 PM
Lets get some Rogue Love going here.

Yes it's widely known that rogues are the battered stepchild of DDO. What, if anything is being done to aid this oft maligned class.

Intimidate and Diplomacy have both become insta effects. Wheres the Bluff love? Make the bluff effect instant. Improved feint is still area affect and for balance just increase the duration of the bluff affect from a feint.

Blinding Flash- Great affect on a lowbie item. Too bad everything saves against it beyond level 5. Make the DC based on the user's rogue levels. More rogue levels = more % chance blind mobs.

On that note, create a Blinding flash enhancement line for the way of the assassin enhancement. Use your haste boost to create a blinding flash etc etc.

These are simple, easily coded affects that are reasonable and would make playing a rogue more enjoyable. Lets hear some more ideas and get some rogue love going.

LeLoric
10-26-2007, 11:19 PM
I like the blinding flash idea, an enhancement version of it would be great then i wouldnt have to use my sirrocco as much

GuitarHero
10-27-2007, 12:21 AM
how about instead of skill mastery (when its implemented) giving +1 to skills, it allows you to take a 10 on skill checks, or speeds up the timer, or makes it harder to interupt you while your using a skill.

(personally, i loath the idea of +1 to skills, because if they HAVE it, it will be required to have.)

Borror0
10-27-2007, 12:43 AM
(personally, i loath the idea of +1 to skills, because if they HAVE it, it will be required to have.)

/pull strings on DDO forums 'Speak and Say'


Skill Mastery, like Way of the Mechanic, isn't considered in DC calculations when we're setting up traps and the like. Wouldn't be much of a choice if you had to have it, right?

MysticTheurge
10-27-2007, 09:56 AM
I like the blinding flash idea, an enhancement version of it would be great then i wouldnt have to use my sirrocco as much

Better yet, a Rogue enhancement that increases the DC of all items (excluding wands and scrolls) might be pretty cool.

Mad_Bombardier
10-27-2007, 10:03 AM
Better yet, a Rogue enhancement that increases the DC of all items (excluding wands and scrolls) might be pretty cool.Ok, Item DC is a cool idea. But, why would a Rogue only get it? IMO, should be Bard, too. :)

And while we're on needed Rogue enhancements:

Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery
Rogue Wand Heightening
Rogue Skill: Haggle

MysticTheurge
10-27-2007, 10:05 AM
Ok, Item DC is a cool idea. But, why would a Rogue only get it? IMO, should be Bard, too. :)

Yeah, I almost said Rogue/Bard, but then I didn't. Either way works, really, but Bards do already have a lot going for them while Rogues could use a bit of help.


Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery
Rogue Wand Heightening

I actually don't want to see these two. It's already bad enough that a) consumable magic items are available with essentially no significant cost and b) consumable magic items can be used fairly reliable to replicate the main class abilities of a spellcaster.

Mad_Bombardier
10-27-2007, 10:14 AM
and b) consumable magic items can be used fairly reliable to replicate the main class abilities of a spellcaster.I agree with you on a). But for b), I hardly think minimum caster level scrolls and wands can be fairly compared to the abilities of a spellcaster. Even with the enhancements, wands and scroll DCs/outputs are pretty pathetic. Casters are still important. I mostly wanted them in for equality. Rogues have UMD as a class skill and no enhancements for it.

Especially now that persistant damage/AoE scrolls are off the vendors, that basically leaves healing wands. And frankly +10 to +40% to those doesn't bother me because it's still pretty "meh". At it's best,

CLW 4-9 +40% = 5-12 (1-3 pt increase)
CMW 9-19 +40% = 12-26 (3-7 pt increase)
CSW 14-29 +40% = 19-40 (5-11 pt increase)

MysticTheurge
10-27-2007, 10:33 AM
Rogues have UMD as a class skill and no enhancements for it.

See, I don't see the wand/scroll enhancements as UMD enhancements. I see them as spellcaster enhancements.

This is why Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics get them. The reason Bards get them and Rogues don't is that Bards are spellcasters and Rogues are not.

Emili
10-27-2007, 02:22 PM
See, I don't see the wand/scroll enhancements as UMD enhancements. I see them as spellcaster enhancements.

This is why Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics get them. The reason Bards get them and Rogues don't is that Bards are spellcasters and Rogues are not.

I was thining the same thing as I read the post... personally I'd rather see the rogue get more abilities/skills in being roguish not caster like. Class distintion sets them aside not erroding lines between them. The rogue should be - well devious, stealthy and nibble, as a fighter a highly trained and lethal man-at-arms, as a cleric a hammer of the gods, etc...

QuantumFX
10-28-2007, 11:35 PM
/pull strings on DDO forums 'Speak and Say'

Um... yeah... cause Way of the Mechanic had absolutely NO influence on the Cabal trap. :rolleyes:

I'd rather it be something other than a knock off of Human Versatility 1.0 as well. Something along the lines of a full ranked skill clickie and doubles the speed of your rogue animations. (Search, Disable, Sneak, Bluff) That way the rogue gets to be zen master trapsmith without a huge AP investment.

Borror0
10-28-2007, 11:43 PM
Um... yeah... cause Way of the Mechanic had absolutely NO influence on the Cabal trap. :rolleyes:

It obviously does.

That trap is for trap-monkeys!! For totally trap-dedicated rogues. It's an exception, not the rule.

QuantumFX
10-28-2007, 11:49 PM
It obviously does.

That trap is for trap-monkeys!! For totally trap-dedicated rogues. It's an exception, not the rule.

Exactly, which negates Eladrin's claim. (The sad part is that all that trap did was make pure rogues look like idiots.)

The answer isn't in higher DCs it's making sure multiclassers have to pay a hefty price that a rogue doesn't

Borror0
10-29-2007, 12:06 AM
The answer isn't in higher DCs it's making sure multiclassers have to pay a hefty price that a rogue doesn't

People were asking for a TRAP, they got their TRAP.
This one was made so it took everything you had to do it.

Others aren't like this, it is per design. They wanted a trap to be THE trap. Seems like they didn't fail. ;)

QuantumFX
10-29-2007, 12:12 AM
Intimidate and Diplomacy have both become insta effects. Wheres the Bluff love? Make the bluff effect instant. Improved feint is still area affect and for balance just increase the duration of the bluff affect from a feint.

Something else that Turbine could do is code a successful bluff check to also force baddies back into a "search for sneaky guy" mode. 2 for one effects could equal a quick one trick pony effect.

GuitarHero
10-29-2007, 12:17 AM
People were asking for a TRAP, they got their TRAP.
This one was made so it took everything you had to do it.

Others aren't like this, it is per design. They wanted a trap to be THE trap. Seems like they didn't fail. ;)

well, the TRAP is in an out of the way area, on a single quest, guarding a subpar chest.

Its like your DM saying, "Well, you wanted to fight a dragon. You could have, if you'd bored a hole through the wall in the dungeon for about 200 meters, and found the dragon's lair. Too bad you guys didn't bring any shovels. Its ok though, because even if you beat the dragon, looters raided him a week ago and he doesn't have much treasure left."

QuantumFX
10-29-2007, 12:28 AM
Others aren't like this, it is per design. They wanted a trap to be THE trap. Seems like they didn't fail. ;)

Or they did fail because there are multiclassed builds out there (Arcane Trickster and some Ravi builds) that don't require as much external buff dependancy to take out that trap. :( Just to find the stupid thing requires an elf or dwarf to do it without having a bard around. (Thanks to a system that doesn't actually roll dice for a search check and assumes a "take a 20" 24/7 even if it's in the middle of combat.) How does **** like this showcase what a trapsmith rogue can do? VoN5, The Enemy Within and the Crucible did a much better job in this department.

MysticTheurge
10-29-2007, 07:03 AM
How does **** like this showcase what a trapsmith rogue can do? VoN5, The Enemy Within and the Crucible did a much better job in this department.

Which is why I always thought it was silly, what people were asking for.

Maybe we should all just consider the Cabal trap Proof of Concept that shows that Ultra-High DC traps don't make a lick of difference in the grand scheme of Rogue Love.

Aspenor
10-29-2007, 07:55 AM
People that don't see how undeniably overpowered the rogue class is must not play with good rogues.

llevenbaxx
10-29-2007, 08:32 AM
Exactly, which negates Eladrin's claim. (The sad part is that all that trap did was make pure rogues look like idiots.)

The answer isn't in higher DCs it's making sure multiclassers have to pay a hefty price that a rogue doesn't

Why should they have to pay a hefty price for just a couple of rogue skills... the whole reason they multiclassed in the first place.

Would love to have bluff be an insta affect too. Tried using it briefly but was just getting smacked more often than not while "bluffing" them. Wouldnt mind if this changed for everyone, it still would help rogues out the most.

Imo the cable trap wasnt good for any character other that straight trapmonkies, be they pure or MC. Most of the reason people MC rogues is because they wanted to get something other than the rogue stuff out of their build. There are very few MC builds that have equal footing, much less an advantage, in the trapsmithing dept. due to the enhancement system.

They are addressing the rogue class the right way imo, slowly. This is a class with a wide range of abilities. As one of the people who actually use all of the abilities I could easily see the class becoming overpowered.:)

GuitarHero
10-29-2007, 08:50 AM
if they'd given us options from the start, instead of saying "Thou shalt have improved evasion, then crippling strike" more people might take more than 1 level of rogue. that and a totally fubar'd interpetation of uncanny dodge.

MysticTheurge
10-29-2007, 09:43 AM
if they'd given us options from the start, instead of saying "Thou shalt have improved evasion, then crippling strike" more people might take more than 1 level of rogue. that and a totally fubar'd interpetation of uncanny dodge.

Well don't those people feel silly now.

GuitarHero
10-29-2007, 09:44 AM
Well don't those people feel silly now.

hope so.

sirgog
10-29-2007, 10:17 AM
IMO more nasty, nasty traps (think The Cursed Crypt's stair trap and collapsing floor near chest traps) would be a good start.

Lithic
10-29-2007, 10:28 AM
*looks for signs of Rogue on Rogue action*

*is disapointed*

*moves on to other threads*

QuantumFX
10-29-2007, 12:04 PM
Why should they have to pay a hefty price for just a couple of rogue skills... the whole reason they multiclassed in the first place.

I'm not saying make the cost of entry any higher than it already is. But I keep pushing for Skill Mastery to be a faster animation and feat replacement for the Skill Action Boost enhancement chain because it will open up 10-12 APs for rogues.

The high end rogue abilities are the "WOW" abilities for the class in P&P and should be the same here in DDO. Human Versatility 1.0 reloaded isn't gonna help.

GuitarHero
10-29-2007, 12:34 PM
yeah, my rogue, who is not 100% dedicated towards being a trapmonkey, can disable any trap i've seen so far on a 1, and can seach many of them even when i'm ******** and forget to swap my dreamvisor for my search goggles. Not claiming to be uber, just sayin' i don't NEED another +1 to all my skills, i want faster animations, or the ability to just take a 10 (though this would still be pretty useless, since the above-mentioned 1 thing) or maybe make it harder to break my concentration while i'm disabling or picking. these things would separate the splash rogues from the pure rogues, and would give people a reason to get higher up in the rogue brackets.

MysticTheurge
10-29-2007, 01:25 PM
For what it's worth:


Gianthold: Cabal for One
NEW - A crafty Hobgoblin trap is now a bit easier to find. This does not mean it’s any easier to disable. Note also that on higher difficulty levels, it may still be incredibly difficult to spot.

Shamguard
10-29-2007, 02:40 PM
I would just like to know why the CR3-5 NPC rogues and assassins get Hide in Plain Sight and my level 14 rogues don't.
I guess the NPC's get P-Classes like Shadow Dancer and Assassin while the players get weak enhancements like WotM and WotA.
You know I always thought part of game balance is that the NPCs and PCs had to use the same rules. I guess in DDO we have two sets of rules one for the PCs, that keep geting weaker and another set for the NPCs, that keep getting stronger.
I have no problem with the NPCs getting Spells and Abilities before the players. That is part of the challenge, but when a player character is 11 levels above an NPC's (of the same class) CR the player should be able to do everything the NPC does and more.

GuitarHero
10-29-2007, 03:12 PM
/agreed shamguard

we're playin' two separate games here, the NPC rule set, and the player rule set. unfortunately, they don't mesh well.

QuantumFX
10-29-2007, 03:20 PM
I would just like to know why the CR3-5 NPC rogues and assassins get Hide in Plain Sight and my level 14 rogues don't.
I guess the NPC's get P-Classes like Shadow Dancer and Assassin while the players get weak enhancements like WotM and WotA.
You know I always thought part of game balance is that the NPCs and PCs had to use the same rules. I guess in DDO we have two sets of rules one for the PCs, that keep geting weaker and another set for the NPCs, that keep getting stronger.
I have no problem with the NPCs getting Spells and Abilities before the players. That is part of the challenge, but when a player character is 11 levels above an NPC's (of the same class) CR the player should be able to do everything the NPC does and more.

They just have really, really good bluff scores and a special monster feat called "who cut the cheese" that allows them to emit a noxious gas and do an insta bluff/go into hide mode effect.

llevenbaxx
10-29-2007, 03:25 PM
I'm not saying make the cost of entry any higher than it already is. But I keep pushing for Skill Mastery to be a faster animation and feat replacement for the Skill Action Boost enhancement chain because it will open up 10-12 APs for rogues.

The high end rogue abilities are the "WOW" abilities for the class in P&P and should be the same here in DDO. Human Versatility 1.0 reloaded isn't gonna help.


Ill agree its a little lack luster being just +1 to all skills but that does figure out to be like 2 levels worth of skill points.

I think its pretty lame to speed up the trapsmith animations for basically only pure or near pure rogues though. Thats an annoying game-play issue to anyone that does traps. Should have been faster from launch for everyone.

I dont quite agree they are the "WOW" factors you seem to. They are just feats, like for any other class. Where are the ftr classes "WOW" feats? Thats right theyre just regular ol feats like any other class, which in general are inferior to enhancements in DDO(not that I like or agree with it;)).

Maybe having two 14th level MC trapsmiths who have sacrificed much to be so, I dont want to see pure classed rogues have some made up bs making them more desirable as trapsmiths. Other than enhancements I guess:) Class feats I have np with.:D

QuantumFX
10-29-2007, 09:15 PM
I think its pretty lame to speed up the trapsmith animations for basically only pure or near pure rogues though. Thats an annoying game-play issue to anyone that does traps. Should have been faster from launch for everyone.

I'm only advocating for rogues with the skill mastery special ability to be sped up. The P&P ability affects skill usage in combat or stressful situations the only way I can see it happening under the DDO engine is to speed it up. The main advantage to a sped up animation is a skill mastery specced rogue to spend less time in traps (and possibly rolling a 1 on a reflex save mucking up his search attempt.)


I dont quite agree they are the "WOW" factors you seem to. They are just feats, like for any other class. Where are the ftr classes "WOW" feats? Thats right theyre just regular ol feats like any other class, which in general are inferior to enhancements in DDO(not that I like or agree with it;)).

They're definately WOW abilities in P&P where not everyone has a godlike reflex saves and +15 Skill enhancing items and 1d6 HP/level isn't a recipe for disaster.

And the P&P fighter WO feats are things like Spring Attack, SotR, Whirlwind Attack, TWF + Imp shield bash. You know, really long combat feat chains that only a fighter can get to in a decent amount of playtime.


Maybe having two 14th level MC trapsmiths who have sacrificed much to be so, I dont want to see pure classed rogues have some made up bs making them more desirable as trapsmiths. Other than enhancements I guess:) Class feats I have np with.:D

Same with me. That's why I dislike the inherent skill bonus version of skill mastery. The trap DCs in this game are already rediculous. And any claims that they're not gonna design traps around it is naive. My proposal does nothing to make the skills go higher it just allows a rogue to be a more versatile trapsmith.

GuitarHero
10-30-2007, 12:00 AM
I think its pretty lame to speed up the trapsmith animations for basically only pure or near pure rogues though. Thats an annoying game-play issue to anyone that does traps. Should have been faster from launch for everyone.

what quantumFX said!

Its not saying you can't disable traps just as good with your MC as i can with my pure, i could just do it faster. wouldn't change one thing about the way your character is now, the way you seem to like them, but it would give me a benifit of being pure rogue.

llevenbaxx
10-30-2007, 08:21 AM
Well, it was said that the +1 from Skill Mastery specifically wasnt going to be figured into the trap DCs. If I didnt hear it from E I might not believe it either. Basically allowing the rogues with this feat to not feel obligated to pick up the last line of enhancements. Thats at least 12 APs you can spend elsewhere.

The reason I say they are not the WOW factor is not nearly as many dice are rolled in a PnP game so their uses are far and few between compared to this game. They are nice, dont get me wrong, but their are far more useful in a game that has 100X the number of rolls in a standard session.

I still think those 12 APs is better that speeding up the animation on the off chance a 1 might be rolled while disarming. I have been playing trapsmiths since day one and have become very proficient at doing them quickly(sometimes even before someone runs through them:)), speeding up the animations has been something I have wanted since shortly after day one for trapsmiths as a whole. Taking a 10 has nothing to do with the speed at which the trap is disarmed, it has everything to do with the rogue not completely botching it(rolling a 1).

I would rather see SM rogues allowed to take the 10 on rollable skills than put something completely fabricated in, which is what I see this as. Guess I should also say that I dont think trapsmithing has anything to do with what people precieve is wrong with the class(other than animation speeds). I just feel that creating imbalances between trapsmith builds for no good reason is not the way to fix/show love or w/e to rogues.

GuitarHero
10-30-2007, 09:48 AM
Ummmmmm, you don't fail DD checks on a 1.... i disable on a 1 all the time... i don't NEED another +1, so that i can disable on a -5.

llevenbaxx
10-30-2007, 09:52 AM
Ummmmmm, you don't fail DD checks on a 1.... i disable on a 1 all the time... i don't NEED another +1, so that i can disable on a -5.

you do fail if you get interupted due to a failed ref save on a 1 though.;)

GuitarHero
10-30-2007, 10:00 AM
but thats not completely botching it, thats completely botching something else entirely. how would a +1 to DD help that? if anything, you're advocating faster animations!

llevenbaxx
10-30-2007, 12:04 PM
but thats not completely botching it, thats completely botching something else entirely. how would a +1 to DD help that? if anything, you're advocating faster animations!

The other guy wanted to tack on faster animations tied to the feat, not I. I thought that was Quantums rationalization for speeding up the animation, so there would be less time thus less chance to fail a ref save while going through the srch/DD animations. If im wrong, my mistake.

I do think they should just make the animations faster period, no feat needed. The feat in PnP has nothing to do at all with the amount of time it takes to disable something. Now if they implimented a mechanic that jacks the speed of the animation relative to your DD/srch score, that would be fair to all builds and even make a little sense. I know for fact that my wiz/rog has better skills than some pure rogues(for w/e reason, build choice, stats not the point) but because they take the feat they are all of the sudden better/faster than me. Doesnt make any sense to me.

Have to ask too, if you are able to do any of the traps so easily, why dont you drop the related rogue enhancements and apply them to areas they are needed? I think thats what they are intending the feat to do as is.

Twerpp
10-30-2007, 12:53 PM
People that don't see how undeniably overpowered the rogue class is must not play with good rogues.

Bingo. Or youve never ran your rogue flanking alongside a great DPS fighter or barb and you get sneak dice on EVERY SINGLE attack. And sure it doesnt work on undead well I cant crit undead either nobody can so boohoo.

Insta-kill traps with high DC, more scenarios that require evasion, and a key quest that absolutely, positively requires a rogue or at least more than a 2 level multi-rogue would go a long way in making the class more fun to play.

I always thought it would be funny to answer wrong in the new pre-raid and have everyone in the fry-basket get cooked from a point-blank blast of black dragon breath except for the rogue who is standing there completed unharmed because he made his save, "Evasion ftw!"

GuitarHero
10-30-2007, 12:56 PM
Have to ask too, if you are able to do any of the traps so easily, why dont you drop the related rogue enhancements and apply them to areas they are needed? I think thats what they are intending the feat to do as is.

Well, i can do other stuff as well, i'm not 100% trapmonkey, i can DPS, UMD, and with the right choice of weapons, even CC a little. You don't have to sqeeze every bit of skill to DD stuff easily, (i believe i just have the +2 DD enhancement just to qualify for WotM).

And i don't see why it would hurt MC rogues if they DID allow pure rogues faster animations. You already are better than most pure rogues, as you said before, what would it hurt to give me an edge?

However, i could go for an across the board ability to take a penalty to skills in order to activate them faster.

llevenbaxx
10-30-2007, 01:25 PM
Well, i can do other stuff as well, i'm not 100% trapmonkey, i can DPS, UMD, and with the right choice of weapons, even CC a little. You don't have to sqeeze every bit of skill to DD stuff easily, (i believe i just have the +2 DD enhancement just to qualify for WotM).

And i don't see why it would hurt MC rogues if they DID allow pure rogues faster animations. You already are better than most pure rogues, as you said before, what would it hurt to give me an edge?

However, i could go for an across the board ability to take a penalty to skills in order to activate them faster.

Never said most, wasnt bragging either. You guys already do have an edge(class feats) and even more if you choose to take them(enhancements). Any properly build pure rogue could be a better trapsmith than either of my characters, its pure numbers.

Im just against these kind of pulled out of thin air advantages that favor certain builds over others with no basis from the game this one was derived. Its not making rogues as a whole better against the content, its making one kind of rogue better against the content. We all in this together.:)

Faster animations are just one thing Ive thought they should have put in from the start, to give them to certain characters/builds would just be lame imho. Also dont think a penalty is in order, noone currently waits for any kind of rogue to do the traps, it just needs to all happen faster.

GuitarHero
10-30-2007, 01:29 PM
well, the +1 skills is equally pulled out of thin air.

llevenbaxx
10-30-2007, 01:54 PM
well, the +1 skills is equally pulled out of thin air.

good point:)

I guess I just dont like that there is no way for most MC to overcome or be on equal ground with that type of "bonus". With my two builds Ive planned carefully to make up the deficiencies in trapsmithing my lack of rogue levels creates, by magic/extra hps or w/e. Basically I just dont like the idea of made up advantages that cant be overcome.

When it comes down to it I guess I just dont see anything wrong with the class and get a little put off when pure/near pure rogue players try to create unique advantages for the sake of making themselves better trapsmiths(notice I didnt say rogues) compared to other characters. What can I say Im human.:o

EDIT
In PnP, skill point and ranks with any race and item bonuses give you a total modifier. This number is all that matters. A 14th level halfling rogue with a 25DD means the exact same thing as a WF rogue5/wizard9 with a 25DD. Based on that I just think the animation speed would at least be based on your overall modifier than some made up feat. More fair imo.

GuitarHero
10-30-2007, 02:45 PM
When it comes down to it I guess I just dont see anything wrong with the class and get a little put off when pure/near pure rogue players try to create unique advantages for the sake of making themselves better trapsmiths(notice I didnt say rogues) compared to other characters. What can I say Im human.:o

Understand completely, but on the other hand...

your trapsmith can cast spells at above minimum caster level, my UMD is stuck at minimum.

Of course pure rogues would want a unique advantage! thats what unique advantages are!!! But of course not every rogue or trapsmith will take a boost that would allow them to disable a trap 2 seconds faster, but it would be a viable option over the joke that is Human Versatility Revisited.

QuantumFX
10-31-2007, 04:04 PM
good point:)

I guess I just dont like that there is no way for most MC to overcome or be on equal ground with that type of "bonus". With my two builds Ive planned carefully to make up the deficiencies in trapsmithing my lack of rogue levels creates, by magic/extra hps or w/e. Basically I just dont like the idea of made up advantages that cant be overcome.

When it comes down to it I guess I just dont see anything wrong with the class and get a little put off when pure/near pure rogue players try to create unique advantages for the sake of making themselves better trapsmiths(notice I didnt say rogues) compared to other characters. What can I say Im human.:o

EDIT
In PnP, skill point and ranks with any race and item bonuses give you a total modifier. This number is all that matters. A 14th level halfling rogue with a 25DD means the exact same thing as a WF rogue5/wizard9 with a 25DD. Based on that I just think the animation speed would at least be based on your overall modifier than some made up feat. More fair imo.

Let me ask you a question: Do you feel put out when developers put trapboxes in or through the AoE of a trap or do you feel it's a tradeoff for being able to cast high level spells? Examples: The Enemy Within, VON5, the Crucible. It's the exact same situation as my proposal. The only advantage our multiclassers get is that the developers aren't given another number to add to the escalating trap DCs.

Skill Mastery is an ability for high level rogues and it needs to be worth more than a standard feat. It needs to be worth more than a multiclassing option and, IMHO, it also needs to be better than an enhancement chain. It needs to be a proper reward for sticking with the rogue class.

MysticTheurge
10-31-2007, 05:10 PM
Skill Mastery is an ability for high level rogues and it needs to be worth more than a standard feat.

Standard Feat: +2 to two skills or +3 to one skill. Total maximum number of skill bonus points possible: 4

Skill Mastery: +1 to all skills. Total maximum number of skill bonus points possible: 19 (discounting Perform)

And that's for now. If they add more skills, you get more bonus. If they add more uses for existing skills, you'll be happier you've got the bonus you had.

And go figure, doing these two is exactly what a lot of us think is one of the biggest things they need to do to make Rogues more appealing.

QuantumFX
10-31-2007, 06:27 PM
Standard Feat: +2 to two skills or +3 to one skill. Total maximum number of skill bonus points possible: 4

Skill Mastery: +1 to all skills. Total maximum number of skill bonus points possible: 19 (discounting Perform)

And that's for now. If they add more skills, you get more bonus. If they add more uses for existing skills, you'll be happier you've got the bonus you had.

And go figure, doing these two is exactly what a lot of us think is one of the biggest things they need to do to make Rogues more appealing.

Revamping skill usage is a general issue with DDO and not a rogue specific problem. And even if Turbine bothered to fix it we would still have the same problem with Skill Mastery not being a stellar ability that encourages people to make pure rogues.

And as you should know by now not all skills benefit a rogue. There's exactly 5 useful skills for trapsmiths (Spot, Search, DD, OL and UMD). If you take Skill Mastery 3 times (At the expense of Imp Evasion, Defensive Roll and Slippery Mind) you've managed to get the equivilant of 2 free skill focuses. You've also managed to give a certain developer an extra number to toss into trap DC calculations.

And please don't bother quoting that they're lowering the Cabal trap search DC. They already stated that racial bonuses would not be considered in trap DCs and then turned right around and made the Cabal trap where you had to be an elf or dragonmarked dwarf to find it. They've done it once they will do it again.

Escalating trap DCs to force rogues into higher search/disable checks is not the solution to making rogues more desirable.

MysticTheurge
10-31-2007, 07:27 PM
Revamping skill usage is a general issue with DDO and not a rogue specific problem.

I disagree.

Yes, it's a general issue, but it's also has a proportionately larger effect on Rogues.

One of the rogue classes main (and enduring) benefits as they level up is a higher number of skill points. This benefit is significantly lessened in DDO where there are fewer skills and/or fewer useful skills. It's also evident in the ease with which other builds can be made. I've always said that if there were more skills that Wizards were expected to have (as there are in D&D where you have 10 knowledge skills, decipher script and spellcraft instead of just concentration) then you'd see Rog 1/Wiz X characters be far more pressed to perform all the same capabilities, skill-wise, as both a Pure Rogue and a Pure Wizard.

To use another example, the lack of Touch Attacks in DDO is also a general issue that also disproportionately affects Rogues. Sure any high dex character is getting the crummy end of the stick because of the lack of Touch Attacks, but given the preponderance of high dex characters amongst the rogue class, they're affected more than other classes.

QuantumFX
10-31-2007, 08:14 PM
One of the rogue classes main (and enduring) benefits as they level up is a higher number of skill points. This benefit is significantly lessened in DDO where there are fewer skills and/or fewer useful skills. It's also evident in the ease with which other builds can be made. I've always said that if there were more skills that Wizards were expected to have (as there are in D&D where you have 10 knowledge skills, decipher script and spellcraft instead of just concentration) then you'd see Rog 1/Wiz X characters be far more pressed to perform all the same capabilities, skill-wise, as both a Pure Rogue and a Pure Wizard.

That would be a good argument if Turbine ever got off their butts and actually added necessary skills to this game. But considering they have made no announcements past or present about adding more skills to the game why support an implementaion of skill mastery that goes against your own stance about stat inflation?

Supporting the current implementation of Skill Mastery in the current game environment is just counterproductive to making rogues fun to play. Rogues need their hero moments just as much as any other class in this game and currently their only signifigant hero moment is constantly being stolen because higher DCs are easier to conquer with a multiclass character.


To use another example, the lack of Touch Attacks in DDO is also a general issue that also disproportionately affects Rogues. Sure any high dex character is getting the crummy end of the stick because of the lack of Touch Attacks, but given the preponderance of high dex characters amongst the rogue class, they're affected more than other classes.

Rangers are affected more.
1) They're front line fighters. In P&P they don't have to fall back on their HP/Fort saves as much as they do in DDO.
2) They're more affected by changes to incorporeals (Undead tend to be the 1st FE taken)