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View Full Version : The Twitch Game - Do you like it? Be heard!



Pellegro
10-25-2007, 08:18 PM
One thing that in my mind has always made DDO stand out over those other MMOs (at least those I've played) is that its got at least a little bit of twitch game to it. Its not an FPS, but its worlds closer to one than WOW, LOTRO, AO, or from what I've heard, any other gaming system. Over and over you hear that DDOs combat is superior, and I agree, and the reason (to me) is that its twitchier. More to do. More movement. More real-time tactics. More.

Notably, I am a former FPS player, and I enjoy the incorporation of hand-eye coordination, real dexterity, etc. into the game. (Note: DDO is a far cry from an FPS ... as those who have played competitive FPSs can attest.)

That said, I wonder what others think, specifically:

Do you like the twitch factor? Would you like to see more of it? Do you hate it? Be heard!

The reason I ask ... in the Abbott raid (currently the most difficult quest in game), there is apparently a fair amount of "twitch" gaming involved - mini-games/puzzles that require fast reactions. In perusing the feedback thread, I see lots of feedback that people *hate* this. And it surprises me, although I guess it shouldn't seeing as so many hated (or still hate) the Pit, another quest that requires more than minimal hand-eye coordination.

So, I figure, ***, I'll open an unofficial poll.

Do you all like having some quests that require hand/eye coordination, or do you hate it?

Would you rather see just a few non-raid quests that implement that type of dynamic, so that you don't have to run it except for favor?

Would you rather see such quests banished altogether?

Do you like it as it is now?

Be heard !

MysticTheurge
10-25-2007, 08:40 PM
I both like and dislike the twitch factor.

But overall, I'd like to see it be less important than it is in some quests (the pit, what I hear of the Abbot, etc.).

I can accept the dodging arrows/ray spells, having to be in range and facing properly for melee attacks/spells. But I'd like to see those things eased up a bit too (i.e. arrows/rays moving faster).

But the really twitch-y/platform-y quests can be quite annoying for those of us who'd prefer Dungeons and Dragons Online to be a little more like Dungeons and Dragons and a little less like an FPSMMOG.

Poobah
10-25-2007, 08:50 PM
My characters have superior twitch skills, alas I do not. Events inside the game should be mostly influenced by my characters' skill - not my rl twitch skills, my internet connection or PC.

That said, I do like the DDO combat system better than the few others that I have tried.

My frustration is with some of the Mario Brothers fun. If my character has a high jump and high dex, I should be able to get where I need to be. The reality is that my character is handicapped, by my big fingers on this laptop keyboard.

Turial
10-25-2007, 08:53 PM
I like the twitch aspect of combat in DDO but dislike it when it becomes a main factor in completing a puzzle or quest.

miceelf88
10-25-2007, 09:31 PM
I don't mind twitch too much for things like jumping or dodging. I'm not good at it, but there was something for me to do at the bottom of the Pit, healing folk and killing slimes. IN the Pit, as painful as it was for me, the jumping was inherent to the quest. It made sense in an organic way.

But making my character play a video game to defeat a god seems kind of strange. My character has low dex, so it makes sense, but I agree- my rogue should not be gimped by my poor connection.

Spectralist
10-25-2007, 09:45 PM
Do you like the twitch factor? Would you like to see more of it? Do you hate it? Be heard!

Yup, its one of the main reasons i prefer this to other MMOs.

Rilen
10-25-2007, 10:48 PM
Live by the twitch, die by the twitch. I'm definately a fan. :-)

MrCow
10-25-2007, 10:52 PM
I do agree in favor of people who say its an asset to the game to have twitch but it should not be required to do parts of the game.

However, I absolutely love twitch when I'm in the mood to be focused on twitch. The Pit is one of my favorite quests and I will gladly run it for the twitch factor or for twitch inept (twitch handicapped, twitch disabled, uncoordinated... what do you people like to be called?). Other things like Ghola Fan's trap room, the ability to tumble-cast on a casting class, ranged weaponry (even with the bugs), and being the crazy jumping headless-chicken arcane all make me happy.

I love twitch!!! :D

Lorien_the_First_One
10-25-2007, 11:21 PM
My characters have superior twitch skills, alas I do not. Events inside the game should be mostly influenced by my characters' skill - not my rl twitch skills, my internet connection or PC.

That said, I do like the DDO combat system better than the few others that I have tried.

My frustration is with some of the Mario Brothers fun. If my character has a high jump and high dex, I should be able to get where I need to be. The reality is that my character is handicapped, by my big fingers on this laptop keyboard.


I agree completely. We need a D&D (ie stat based) approach and not twitch testing.

Strakeln
10-25-2007, 11:41 PM
I love the twitch. I love the FPS-ish element. I love the Mario Bros stuff.

But I don't like being required to rely on others for the same level of skill I expect of myself. This is where my frustrations lie with the Abbott. I suspect I am not alone.

BlameCandida
10-26-2007, 12:01 AM
I will gladly run it for the twitch factor or for twitch inept (twitch handicapped, twitch disabled, uncoordinated... what do you people like to be called?).

Well considering I wouldn't have much favor if it weren't for that, you can call me thankful.

I like the twitch to some degree. I enjoy being able to control swinging and movement in combat. When I went over to WoW for a few weeks, and LotRO for a few months, I really felt a difference in the combat style. I hated playing my Champion and Guardian because I felt bored waiting for the weapons to move. However, I really liked playing my Hunter in LotRO compared to my ranged-specced fighter in DDO. Playing ranged in LotRO was somewhat twitchier, but I enjoyed it because it gave me something to do instead of just waiting for my bow to go off. (Pssst, CODOG, see how Hunters in LotRO work).

I'm not a big twitch fan when it comes to the Mario games though. I think I have improved through as I've run the dungeons more. I remember back in the old days being afraid to run VoN 2 and VoN 4 because I couldn't handle the jumping...to say nothing of The Pit! After my LotRO break I came back to DDO, and I have a lot less trouble with the movement, but I still don't like it.

I don't think my real-life abilities should affect my character's jumping abilities, the same way my real-life strength doesn't prevent my character from wielding a greataxe in game.

Cruzer
10-26-2007, 01:02 AM
Almost any MMO has a "twitch" factor too it. I do love the DDO twitch factor. I like that my personal "twitch" skill has an effect on my actual character. I cast scorching ray on wraiths and shadows and hit them. I mouse look 90% of the time I run or swing as a melee.

Sometmies I don't even target an enemy before casting a ray effect.. i just mouse-look and get the red crosshair and fire. But i've played more FPS games than MMOs. I have to agree that in a D&D setting, the player's twitch skill should count for les than the character's skill points. I have no problem with the Pit or Abbot raids, as I've got decent "twitch" skills and my own IRL coordination can get me through it. But I have to say it doesn't work well when my personal abilities help my character when someone who has 20+ ranks in skill and jump can't do the same thing. In DDO, I like it. From a D&D PnP aspect, it ruins a bit of the gameplay.

Borror0
10-26-2007, 01:06 AM
I love the twitch. I love the FPS-ish element. I love the Mario Bros stuff.

But I don't like being required to rely on others for the same level of skill I expect of myself. This is where my frustrations lie with the Abbott. I suspect I am not alone.

You are not.

Well, could be implemented... but differently (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=125355&highlight=Stockwizard).

mgoldb2
10-26-2007, 02:06 AM
My frustration is with some of the Mario Brothers fun. If my character has a high jump and high dex, I should be able to get where I need to be. The reality is that my character is handicapped, by my big fingers on this laptop keyboard.

Am curious how you want that implemented?

A)
Do you want jumping automated? Get close to an edge and it jumps for you?

I played games that do that but to me that would take away a big part of the fun of DDO game mechanics.

B)
Or is it just a matter of quest design not requiring lots of jumping etc. To that I say there are lots of people that love quests like the Pit. It is personally one of my favorite quests. It a small percent of the quests that require it just avoid them. There some quests I don’t find enjoyable so I don’t run them often am not going to ask them to be removed.

The Abott raid is the only place I see for complaint because of the randomness factor. I thing it a bit too much to require 12 people to all have be able to do any 3 puzzle or it time to start over if the wrong people get the puzzle.

Am really curious what people mean by stat base approach using jumping as an example. Is it A or B or is there another idea am not thinking of that you mean?

DoctorWhofan
10-26-2007, 05:39 AM
It is thereason why I could not play any MMO besides this one. THis is my first MMO, and the rest seem like the game is doingall thework for you.

Of course, ask me when my cleric is trying to get to that chest in the DQ pre-raid, and I'll tell you how much it sucks!

JayDubya
10-26-2007, 07:54 AM
Like others, the twitch/real time combat feel of DDO is what seperates it from all the other MMO games out there. It's a big chunk of what makes it exciting. For example:


The speed and swim runs in the Crucible.
Flying down the lever/spear passages in the Reaver
Dodging chaos balls & trying to dodge beholders
The mario brothers aspects of the Pit
The puzzle in the Reaver, while dodging elementals
Jumping across the dragon's back
Timing the traps in VoN2, etc

BlueLightBandit
10-26-2007, 08:20 AM
Like others, the twitch/real time combat feel of DDO is what seperates it from all the other MMO games out there. It's a big chunk of what makes it exciting. For example:

The speed and swim runs in the Crucible.
Flying down the lever/spear passages in the Reaver
Dodging chaos balls & trying to dodge beholders
The mario brothers aspects of the Pit
The puzzle in the Reaver, while dodging elementals
Jumping across the dragon's back
Timing the traps in VoN2, etc

I'm not seeing how any of these would be different in any other MMO. All of these things are similar to what's found in LOTRO, WOW, EQ2, and AOC... except for maybe the puzzle aspsect.

The difference in DDOs melee combat is the fact that the player controls every swing, and character stats. Add onto this a large variety of weapon bonuses and types, and you're getting a customizable experience. WOW for example, at higher levels every item is a named item, not very custom tailored, and for combat you select the enemy and click attack... when the enemy is close enough your character swings until the mob is either dead or moves out of range. You still control where you stand, or how you jump, or if you have to navigate a tricky path to get there...

Not a lot of other MMOs have D&D type bonuses and combat techniques... thus evasion vs heavy armor type discussions don't happen in other games. There, you don the heaviest armor for your character and hack away. No need to worry about weapon finesse, or improved uncanny dodge. This eliminates anything like the crucible underwater path in other MMOs, simply because EVERYBODY there would take damage equally.

Twitch skills in DDO are not that unusual when comparing the running/jumping/swimming aspect... heck, other MMOs even have underwater combat.

My complaint is that when you take the basic principle of D&D... it's my characters ability to complete tasks... not my players... that matters in the end. Then throw in the need for a player to have timing and coordination... it alienates certain individuals who play this for the RPG aspect, and not the FPS.

There's a reason that people play WoW as opposed to HALO... because they are different. Now DDO's trying to do both, and I for one don't like it.

Aspenor
10-26-2007, 08:34 AM
Nintendo skills, ftw. :cool: I support twitch gameplay.

Girevik
10-26-2007, 08:36 AM
Put me down in the "I don't think twitch skills should be required" camp.

DDO should require regular keyboard input to discourage "two-boxing" and the use of "bots", but it should not require much in the way of leet video game skills other than for the occassional optional side objective or short cut. And these are best implemented so that not all of the party is required to possess them.

What makes DDO different, and superior, to many of the other games is the actual quest nature of almost all of the quests.

alcmaeon
10-26-2007, 08:38 AM
The only reson I play DDO over the other mmorpgs is the twitch fighting. ITs why I don't play LOTRO which was just a throwback (with better graphics) to EQ/WOW/EQ2, etc

Rowanheal
10-26-2007, 08:39 AM
Well, I am not a terribly good twitcherer...

I always die on the swim in the crucible...:eek:

I hate the jumps in the pit...:eek:

But, I love DDO. :)

I am just not good at the twitchier parts of the game... which is why I make my hubby come to the keyboard and do them for me :D

And, sigh... I am HORRIBLE at puzzles. I shouldn't admit this, but I FINALLY figured out the one in goodblades. I know...I am sad huh! (you have no idea how many gleeful hours of pleasure my hubby has had laughing at me)

Oh Oh but I practiced for the Reaver puzzle :D That one at least makes sense to me...kinda... I mean it's colors :)

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

apollojuly
10-26-2007, 08:45 AM
Put me down in the "I don't think twitch skills should be required" camp.

DDO should require regular keyboard input to discourage "two-boxing" and the use of "bots", but it should not require much in the way of leet video game skills other than for the occassional optional side objective or short cut. And these are best implemented so that not all of the party is required to possess them.

What makes DDO different, and superior, to many of the other games is the actual quest nature of almost all of the quests.

Put me down too for what this guy said.

GrayOldDruid
10-26-2007, 08:45 AM
Do you like the twitch factor? Would you like to see more of it? Do you hate it? Be heard!


Well, having just learned what "Twitch" is from this post, if a quest REQUIRES twitch, no, not liking...
mostly for the same reason that I don't like a quest that REQUIRES a high INT to open a door or high STR to pull a lever. It prevents somebody from completing it. Required Twitch is even worse, because you can always pull in a character with the right stat, but if you just don't have the coordination, you will never be able to complete the quest. Unless you stand at the entrance and let the uber-gamer-geek twitch through for you and only get the xp and favor, miss out on the loot. And, from what I've read here, there is no way to learn it without trying and failing over and over and over, you can't just try to figure it out because the timer is ticking and if you don't figure it out right away, boom... fail. Guaranteed re-enter and repeat.

So until they have a quest that REQUIRES slow tactical play and waiting for the rogue to disable the trap because it will Ginsu even the raged tank, I don't think they should REQUIRE twitch.

GrayOldDruid
10-26-2007, 08:54 AM
And, sigh... I am HORRIBLE at puzzles. I shouldn't admit this, but I FINALLY figured out the one in goodblades.

The end of my roar, the beginning of your end.....

Took someone telling me the trick there... R E D last letter or roaR first letter of End.... stupid kerapp.

Of course, the problem was that I took the red lever the first time, so never really had to work it out.... I was like, "Okay, that is stupid, lets do Red." then "What do you mean I solved it? What was it??"

A little while later, on my third character, i was like - the answer is RED, no idea why, but its red.... and someone say, 'last letter of roaR... ' Gods! How lame. 'course, it stumped me.....

mgoldb2
10-26-2007, 09:12 AM
Am still lost what stat base approach even means. Only thing I can thing of is give me less control and have computer do more stuff automatically base on your stats. Which is why I play DDO and not other games. I like the control.

Let take this for example


So until they have a quest that REQUIRES slow tactical play and waiting for the rogue to disable the trap because it will Ginsu even the raged tank, I don't think they should REQUIRE twitch.

(The following is a general question for anyone and not directed at the person I quoted)

What if the chars dont have the int or wis to come up with such a good plan.

Or is it just str,dex,con,cha you want char base. Int and Wis we leave to the person playing the game....

If you not role-playing. Player skill has to be an important aspect other wise it not much of a video game. It seem the real problem is the twitch factor and again just avoid the few quests that use them there really not that many.

llevenbaxx
10-26-2007, 09:14 AM
Ive always been a big Madden/NHL200X/shooter/action-adventure type game fan and have no problem with the idea of hand-eye coordination being a difficulty to overcome.

That said I dont like it in my DDO partly becuase that never really was a part of D&D but mostly because the game doesnt run well enough, consistently enough to add this type of content in abundance or important areas imo. If the game ran better, I dont think Id have much of a problem at all though.

EDIT
Thought the thread was aiming at the extreme twitch as opposed to the every day combat, which I actually love. Nothing is better than playing my rogue, holding back from melee for that instant, you know one of the mosters is going to peel(or be peeled) off the tanks and head to the back liners. To come out of stealth and SA with a trip, dropping the beast, at just the right second is what DDO combat is all about for me. Its why Ive been here since 10 day beta.

miceelf88
10-26-2007, 09:30 AM
Wow, I didn't realize that's what it was until just now. I though his shifting eyes meant we should focus on his eye color.

MysticTheurge
10-26-2007, 09:38 AM
Heheh, seriously. That's classic riddling right there guys. I got it right off the bat.

Rowanheal
10-26-2007, 09:39 AM
Heheh, seriously. That's classic riddling right there guys. I got it right off the bat.

BAH!

Pink ribbons for MT for being so darn smart!

*hugs*

-R

Aspenor
10-26-2007, 09:47 AM
BAH!

Pink ribbons for MT for being so darn smart!

*hugs*

-R

It is guild policy that you must bathe in bleach post-MT hugs.

JayDubya
10-26-2007, 09:48 AM
Heheh, seriously. That's classic riddling right there guys. I got it right off the bat.


Yeah, me too. And I gave moorew the chance to figure it out for himself, too!

Yukiko
10-26-2007, 09:59 AM
Nothing makes fireball more fun then the twitch :D

In_Like_Flynn
10-26-2007, 10:03 AM
I'd like to set my fighter on "kill" and go downstairs to watch Hell's Kitchen.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-26-2007, 10:05 AM
Am curious how you want that implemented?

A)
Do you want jumping automated? Get close to an edge and it jumps for you?

I played games that do that but to me that would take away a big part of the fun of DDO game mechanics.

B)
Or is it just a matter of quest design not requiring lots of jumping etc. To that I say there are lots of people that love quests like the Pit. It is personally one of my favorite quests. It a small percent of the quests that require it just avoid them. There some quests I don’t find enjoyable so I don’t run them often am not going to ask them to be removed.

The Abott raid is the only place I see for complaint because of the randomness factor. I thing it a bit too much to require 12 people to all have be able to do any 3 puzzle or it time to start over if the wrong people get the puzzle.

Am really curious what people mean by stat base approach using jumping as an example. Is it A or B or is there another idea am not thinking of that you mean?

We want to keep it interactive, the question is how much percision is required. The fact that my char has a 40 jump instead of a 10 jump should make a difference, but the fact that I may be a millisecond slower in response time to you shouldn't. In addion the the Abott raid, think about places like the pit where some of the jumps have 0 margin for error even with a good jump skill or that one chest in DQ that no matter what your jump its all about the player skill to get that chest (who hasn't seen someone spend 5 minutes jumping 100 times to try?)

On targetted spells and targetted ranged attacks I'd rather they use the appropriate attack roll (ranged touch in some cases) than physics, but that's a bit less of a problem. (I mean my 30 dex evasion build really should be able to duck that ray better than your 8 dex figher but your better twich may let you duck it before we even get saving throws...just a bit odd from a D&D perspective)

Dirkan
10-26-2007, 10:06 AM
I like the twitch aspect of combat in DDO but dislike it when it becomes a main factor in completing a puzzle or quest.

Agreed

DagazUlf
10-26-2007, 10:35 AM
MT sums it up for me just fine. ;)


I both like and dislike the twitch factor.

But overall, I'd like to see it be less important than it is in some quests (the pit, what I hear of the Abbot, etc.).

I can accept the dodging arrows/ray spells, having to be in range and facing properly for melee attacks/spells. But I'd like to see those things eased up a bit too (i.e. arrows/rays moving faster).

But the really twitch-y/platform-y quests can be quite annoying for those of us who'd prefer Dungeons and Dragons Online to be a little more like Dungeons and Dragons and a little less like an FPSMMOG.

GrayOldDruid
10-26-2007, 10:47 AM
What if the chars dont have the int or wis to come up with such a good plan.


If you have above a 3 INT and/or 3 WIS, that is about all that is required to not run into swinging blades. Its INSTINCT. If it hurts, don't do it. Now, maybe a big, dumb, heavily armored guy would stand there and eventually try to run past and just take the hit, but nobody - no matter how stupid - would see huge blades popping out of walls, floor and ceiling and think, "Ah, I'll just run through it and heal up later" Running a toon through is a different matter, because it doesn't really hurt you. And, you're not going to be doing a whole lot of running in full plate anyway, no matter how strong you are.

Heck, even animals - IRL - are not that stupid, usually.

As for jumping, I would like to see at least the OPTION to use character stats to do it rather than relying on my control and timing of pressing keys and the network latency to be just right in order to get to the place I want. Maybe a 'target space, then press jump' for those hard-to-twitch jumps.

"Tweek not notice things good. Not doing puzzles well either. I just hurt things good. *confused look* Who I should hurt now?"

GrayOldDruid
10-26-2007, 10:48 AM
Walker Boh - Human Sorcerer Lvl 14

Dang, and I was hoping to nab that name for when Druids become available. :D

cforce
10-26-2007, 10:54 AM
For an indication, please see name of my main character, below :).

Shade
10-26-2007, 10:55 AM
Thats the game we bought. Says right on the box, a game where everything is real time and skill matters. If they tried to wash that down it wouldn't be DDO anymore.

Abbot is a bad example, I wouldn't call it a heavy twich raid at all.
The puzzles are more like 80% dumb luck and 20% twitch as they are now.

Rock one you could say oh well good twich skill will win it.. But it won't. Even the best twitch players that maybe have beat it a few times will still usually fail it because its just so random. Meteors that just dont show up hit the platform no matter what, and sometimes you get knocked off, sometimes you dont .. So do the twitch part sure, but mostly roll the dice to see if you win that one.. And the dice arent in your favor.

Ice one just requires good timing at the start, then the ability to jump.. Doing some jumps is not a hard task that only some super skilled twitch player could perform. Hoping the icebergs you fire don't intersect your partnet or apear underwater or you don't lag for 1 second -- dumb luck.

Phase one you just need good communication, nothing to do will twitch skill at all.

akla_thornfist
10-26-2007, 11:07 AM
i do like the twitch thats incorporated into the game the only problem with it is some folks are not good at it, this is a group game and if you have some that cant do the jumps or swim its gonna hurt the whole group but only in a few quest. lets get the required twitch factor stuff to a minimum so it wont affect group play.

DSL
10-26-2007, 11:12 AM
I love that DDO combat is about more than: target MOB, walk up, auto-attack, monitor health bars and cooldown timers until it's dead (or you have to run away). I love that you have to move around, that you can actively dodge some attacks, that facing is important, etc. For the most part, in DDO you don't need good skills, but you often will be a lot more effective with them, and most players do learn them over the course of their first few levels. I would like to see more of this in combat, but perhaps modified by your character's skills/stats. For example, having Dex and armor encumbrance affect how quickly your character can maneuver (affecting acceleration and turn speed). A high tumble skill should have a more direct effect in a combat, perhaps boosting AC, or making a Tumble vs. Hit roll opposed check to even get an attack roll. A high Str might give you a chance to shove opponents backward, or of course prevent them from shoving you back. I wouldn't want huge disparities, but enough to feel that a high or low stat/skill will make a difference.

However, I likewise wouldn't want the stats to do all the work, and I like the fact that my own split-second decisions and skills matter. I understand that some people don't like this, but this to me is one of the defining ways in which DDO distinguishes itself from other MMO's. (and to some extent makes itself more "niche" - I know one person who was an avid EQ and CoH player, who simply couldn't handle the DDO twitch factor, and quit because of it). Should above-average skills be necessary for a quest? I would say no, as any quest should be doable by at least the average person (though of course easier for the above-average). The Pit doesn't really need good twitch skills, though it's a lot less frustrating that way, and what is really useful there more than good jumping skills is a good spatial sense, i.e. a good 3-D sense of direction. If a quest requires such skills for completion (and by require I mean prohibitively difficult without it) then this is perhaps a problem. That said, I for one don't have a problem with such a quest that might be easy for some while frustratingly difficult for others, provided such quests remain uncommon (and probably unwise for a raid to be one such)

GeneralDiomedes
10-26-2007, 11:18 AM
I like twitch for a few reasons.

It adds to replayability. When things are happening quickly, they are never the same way twice.

It is basically the only thing that can still make the game difficult after you have all the plat, all the equipment, the best build and you know what's coming next.

It heightens my personal sense of accomplishment.

It can provide some equalization between builds and equipment levels.

The only real downside is when a quest requires someone who doesn't have twitch skills to perform a certain task.

DSL
10-26-2007, 11:39 AM
[...]It adds to replayability. When things are happening quickly, they are never the same way twice.

It is basically the only thing that can still make the game difficult after you have all the plat, all the equipment, the best build and you know what's coming next.

It heightens my personal sense of accomplishment.


This is ultimately what it's all about. While I can understand the frustration of the twich-challenged, the sense of accomplishement one can get from it is a huge factor. Any game must find a balance between simply watching the computer play things out on its own, and being completely coordination dependant. Really the focus of this thread is how well DDO has found that balance.

Pfamily
10-26-2007, 11:40 AM
Not certain that you could have our combat and movement system w/o using twitch, and I really think DDO offers the best of these among the MMOs available today.

In favor of twitch, regardless of where my fat fingers happen to end up on the keyboard.

EazyWeazy
10-26-2007, 11:59 AM
My characters have superior twitch skills, alas I do not. Events inside the game should be mostly influenced by my characters' skill - not my rl twitch skills, my internet connection or PC.

That said, I do like the DDO combat system better than the few others that I have tried.

My frustration is with some of the Mario Brothers fun. If my character has a high jump and high dex, I should be able to get where I need to be. The reality is that my character is handicapped, by my big fingers on this laptop keyboard.

My thoughts exactly

liamfrancais
10-26-2007, 12:02 PM
Cant say I am a fan for or against the twitch, I have ran in the pit a few times always behind saying what level are you on and how do I get there oh better drink a pot and I have never been in the new raid. What interests me is the way one person will post that a quest is to hard it sucks I am leaving and the next will be the Blah blah quest is too easy make it harder yada yada, so different strokes for for different folks. Do agree there should be a margin of error built in for system latence and mechanics, if I could do it probably be better with a console controller for the twitch.

Laith
10-26-2007, 12:26 PM
different strokes for for different folks.
i LOVE the twitch gameplay. like many others, twitch and puzzles are some of the main reasons i'm here.

i do, however, realize that not everyone wants the quest to hinge upon their twitch skills. making raids based on non-volunteer twitch gameplay isn't cool IMO. When you can choose who does what, it's fine. Best when you can choose AND only a select few need to participate.

oronisi
10-26-2007, 12:52 PM
I LOVE the twitch factor, but can agree with those that point out that DnD is about a character's skills, not the player. But since no other MMO out there has what I need, I'll continue to invade DDO for my fix.

MysticTheurge
10-26-2007, 12:59 PM
For a tabletop comparison, I also take umbrage with those DMs who expect you, the player, to be as eloquent as your +50 Diplomacy, 27 Charisma Bard and penalize you if you're not a public speaker on par with Ghandi or MLK Jr.

HumanJHawkins
10-26-2007, 01:05 PM
Do you like the twitch factor? Would you like to see more of it? Do you hate it? Be heard!

I like it BUT: Repetitive stress injuries are a serious problem for a lot of gamers. There need to be more and better options to remain relevant without having to twitch all the time.

For example, why can't auto attack just keep swinging even when the one specific target has moved away or died... I often have to choose between hurting my wrists, or standing there ineffective because a different baddie moved in front of me.

Or, why can't casters select a particular spell as their current attack option, and just be able to tab-select a target and turn auto-attack on and off to control whether they want the spell to fire off?

And, can the rotate speed for the keys be adjusted somehow? It is so slow, that even with auto-run, I have to use the mouse a lot... I'm thinking the turn rate should work something like the original Doom, which didn't have a mouse mode and worked quite well...

Anyway, twitch is the only way to let players get full action out of their toons, and is good. I just wish it weren't required as often as it is.

arcane_nite
10-26-2007, 01:09 PM
I love twitch. Without hasted, jumping fireballs I would be lost. :)

I tried LOTR and the fighting style in that game made me want to kick myself in the.........

Lizardgrad89
10-26-2007, 01:14 PM
There are three main issues here.

Lag. Self-explanatory.

Money. If the game is twitch based, it becomes an arms race for who can get the best computer/mouse/gamepad setup. That costs money. Hate to lose to someone I am better than because his mommy is a doctor who bought him a $5000 super gaming computer.

D&D is a BRAIN game. The focus should always be on the strategy employed, rather than on the ability to, say, walk a tightrope.



When I want to play a reflex based game, I play Sonic or Madden. If I want to play a brain game, I play Civilization or DDO. DDO is neat because it gives you a little reflex to go with the strategy, but if it ever went to where the reflex was more important, it wouldn't be D&D anymore, and there wouldn't be any reason for me to be here.

Borrigain
10-26-2007, 01:19 PM
:)Coming from a background of FPS games, the twitch is the most amazing draw for me to stay with this game. How many times I'm last man standing cuz twitch saved my life, I can't even begin to count. For me, it completely defines the "immersion factor" in the game. I actually feel like I have control over my toons actions, and I'm not just watching a movie.

That said, however, I DO NOT feel twitch should be "required" to accomplish things in the game. After all, not everyone comes from "twitch" backgrounds, and those people should not be "punished" for not possessing those skills. I believe Turbine has found a unique balance and shouldn't mess with it. At the same time though, they should not design puzzles/dungeons that cannot be accomplished sans twitch.

Abbott is fun for me, but others in my guild fear getting sent to a platform. Now, making platforms mandatory, only hurts them. This I can not abide. It bums me out that my brain says "oh no, party wipe coming cuz so-n-so got sent to asteroids" -- even though verbally I try to offer only encouragement. :) Now if we could "choose" who went where, different story, increased chance of success. Heck, even in the pit, I volunteer, since I know I like that kind of play. But to "force" non-twitcher to have to do it is not a good call.

Just my 2....well....3 cp. :D
Borr.

QuantumFX
10-26-2007, 03:46 PM
Wow this is a toughie...

I do like the fact that we can dodge arrows. And since the baddies can do it as well i consider it fair.

What I don't like is the rationale that twitch skills = touch AC. If that was truly the case then DEX should be a totally meaningless stat. There should be no evasion, and no dex bonus to AC because both those abilities represent moving out of the way.

I also don't like Turbine's continued nerfing of the opportunities to use the jump skill. Missing safe spots, moving ladders, etc. If a level appropriate character isn't supposed to be able to make a jump that's fine but if a higher level comes in for a lootrun/raid then don't destroy their fun of using the tools they have available. This is what causes "retributive DM" accusations to fly.

Poobah
10-27-2007, 02:23 AM
I think one of the posters had the right idea of an OPTIONAL - target and press jump type sequence.

I hate trying to make jumps in the desert and falling down some canyon. I'm sure that the people in my group hate it too, even if they are kind enough not to make it a big issue.

After a few incidents, I started bypassing quests where a lack of twitch skills would stress my group.

I am normally a Civilization, Sim City, RR Tycoon type of gamer so I guess I never really developed those types of skills. I tried DDO because I have played AD&D since the late 70s and had a basic understanding of how things went together.

I do like the DDO type combat system. I play Paladins so I don't have as many fighting options (bash, trip, sap, power attack...) as a regular fighter might have. The combat system works well for me because I can swing, cast a LOH, and then swing again.

During my PnP days, the groups generally tried to stay in character when playing. If an 8 Intel character tried to invent Napalm, the other players would remind the player that people with less than average Intel didn't tend to be inventors.

Who should really be working the mastermind game? The Barbarian or the Rogue? If I were a developer, I would probably require a minimum Intel and/or Wisdom score to play the game.

Then again, I wouldn't design dungeons where reavers, slimes, spiders, mephits and other assorted baddies coordinated their attacks.



Am curious how you want that implemented?

A)
Do you want jumping automated? Get close to an edge and it jumps for you?

I played games that do that but to me that would take away a big part of the fun of DDO game mechanics.

B)
Or is it just a matter of quest design not requiring lots of jumping etc. To that I say there are lots of people that love quests like the Pit. It is personally one of my favorite quests. It a small percent of the quests that require it just avoid them. There some quests I don’t find enjoyable so I don’t run them often am not going to ask them to be removed.

The Abott raid is the only place I see for complaint because of the randomness factor. I thing it a bit too much to require 12 people to all have be able to do any 3 puzzle or it time to start over if the wrong people get the puzzle.

Am really curious what people mean by stat base approach using jumping as an example. Is it A or B or is there another idea am not thinking of that you mean?

Spectralist
10-27-2007, 03:15 AM
What I don't like is the rationale that twitch skills = touch AC. If that was truly the case then DEX should be a totally meaningless stat. There should be no evasion, and no dex bonus to AC because both those abilities represent moving out of the way.

I'm generally a fan of the twitch, but i don't like that either. My 34dex ranger should be much more able to dodge rays & touch attacks then my 8 dex paladin with adamantine body type. And that some of the rays are entirely unresistable make it all the more frustrating. I shudder to think what will happen if they start giving generic caster mobs polar ray.

Affront
10-27-2007, 01:17 PM
I enjoy the 'twitch' aspects of the game. Othewise what impact do I - the player - have on my characters in the game? Without my needing to do the timing, the positioning, the targeting (though sometimes aim-at-target is nice with using a bow) I don't think I would have very much fun.

Raithe
10-27-2007, 04:56 PM
I think the realtime aspect of DDO's gameplay is not only desirable, it's the fundamental aspect of the game that sets it apart from any other RPG label. It's also why some of us have a hard time letting go...

I have some comments about realtime gameplay vs. what people complain about:

1) If you aren't good at twitch play, why are you playing DDO? This game is a FPS. I wish it had been a little more than that, but the entire game is currently built around that concept. If you like realtime RPG-ing a lot but don't have the typing skills to be a rogue, why not be a low-dex fighter-type or mage?

2) Toolbars. Everytime I see a screenshot with the interface unhidden, there are toolbars all over the screen. Are people completely unfamiliar with using the macro key system? It has to be affecting twitch play ability with all those buttons just waiting to be accidentally clicked...

3) Difficulty. The difficulty levels of the game (normal, hard, or elite) should have been realtime speed and challenge difficulties for the player, not a measure of the amount of MMO grind accomplished on the character. When people have talked about "elite" only being for the elite players, I have always laughed. For me, the elite difficulty is no different than normal. I am disappointed when anyone chooses a difficulty other than "elite," because decent gameplay is nearly identical no matter what difficulty is chosen. Choosing normal is usually a concession that "well, we're going to zerg this without a care in the world, and don't want to have to pay the price." (Unless, of course, it's the only option available.)

Just my opinions.

Samadhi
10-27-2007, 05:04 PM
Yup, its one of the main reasons i prefer this to other MMOs.

/signed - Twitch play is where DDO excels and THE reason I am playing it instead of NWN2.

SableShadow
10-27-2007, 05:30 PM
/signed - Twitch play is where DDO excels and THE reason I am playing it instead of NWN2.


Ditto. As I've told my friends repeatedly over the past couple years, the light twitch is what keeps me coming back.

MrCow
10-27-2007, 05:51 PM
I shudder to think what will happen if they start giving generic caster mobs polar ray.

Start buying stock in 10th level Protection from Energy wands.

MysticTheurge
10-27-2007, 06:20 PM
Start buying stock in 10th level Protection from Energy wands.

Well maybe they'll see fit to give us the Clr 6/Wiz-Sorc 7 spell Energy Immunity.

QuantumFX
10-28-2007, 11:53 PM
Well maybe they'll see fit to give us the Clr 6/Wiz-Sorc 7 spell Energy Immunity.

Hush you! We all know you'd rather have ranged/touch attacks! :D