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Lithic
10-18-2007, 04:31 PM
I want my passive +x human versitility bonus back. That is all :D

Olaff
10-19-2007, 01:54 PM
I dunno. I like it much better the way it is now. I've used it for everything except +saves already.

dragnmoon
10-19-2007, 02:07 PM
I dunno. I like it much better the way it is now. I've used it for everything except +saves already.

I use it all the time to.... Still like the way it used to be more... and that and Turbine not working on an expansion are the only things turbine has ever done to disappoint me

Dariun
10-19-2007, 02:24 PM
I want my passive +x human versitility bonus back. That is all :D

ditto

And I want it to stack with ranger's/rogue's action boost again and stop being the *only* race enhancement that doesn't stack with the corresponding class enhancement.

Dirac
10-19-2007, 02:31 PM
I would have never noticed this thread without the new forum setup, as I don't look in the human race discussion board any more. :)

HV is the one change I have never forgotten or forgiven; will not beat the dead horse with reasons, will not pass up a chance to say it again.

Souless
11-06-2007, 12:42 PM
OMG! people of like mind, I didn't think it was ever gonna happen. Everytime I've mentioned the HV word I get slapped with: It's been covered, It's been done, HV is overpowered.

And I have 1 question for that: how is HV overpowered. How?

Oh...n I hate the timer! When was the last time you guys boosted to swim.

Is it any better than dwarvin armor mastery (that stacks)? Is it really any better than any of the other racial enhaments that make the other races preferable to Human?

Anyway here's my scream into the void to bring pack perma HV even if it is in a limited form. If the cheif complaint was it is overpowered because it added too many skill points, let the player choose among 5 or 10 skills they want to apply HV to.....and talk about the differences in toons then!

Well I hope the devs hear us and respond, although as the Bytcher, I must say to any human toon that wants perma HV back: you need to look at all the Ubar Dwarf's, WF's, Elves out there, listen to thier matra *HV is OVERPOWERED*, and stay in your place at the back of the bus!

The Bytcher~

Tanka
11-18-2007, 01:01 PM
And I have 1 question for that: how is HV overpowered. How?
At the point where you had a passive +3 to everything, it was like having a Skill Focus in every skill, that stacked with other Skill Foci.

That's 20 free feats for a few meager AP.

Bah-roh-ken.

Lithic
02-28-2008, 10:22 AM
At the point where you had a passive +3 to everything, it was like having a Skill Focus in every skill, that stacked with other Skill Foci.

That's 20 free feats for a few meager AP.

Bah-roh-ken.

Its not 20 free feats, its 5 feats at best, plus 15 junk feats noone would ever take. If you aren't a rogue, you would take this for UMD at the most. +3 to anything else on most builds is barely worth noticing. +3 to one skill is in line with other racial enhancements.

On a rogue this enhancement shines, but again the only really important skills are DD, search, spot, UMD, and to a much lesser extent open locks. Not broken at all IMO, especially if it was a 2/4/6 progression.


As opposed to say +2 hit/damage with all axes that dwarves get, or +3 stacking AC that dwarves get, or +60ish hp from toughness that dwarves get. Now THAT is a broken enhancement package. Drow/elves get similar huge bonuses to hit/damage with very nice weapons, though arent as badly out of whack as the dwarves.

(If you needed any more proof that human enhancemnts are gimpy, the fact that this was the 3rd post from the top for over 3 months shows how much people care about humans)

Tanka
02-28-2008, 01:02 PM
No, it's still 20 feats for the cost of a few AP. Whether or not it's for skills people don't use/don't boost is irrelevant. Any skill-based character will suddenly require this Enhancement (just like the old days) or it will be "gimped."

This post has been third from the top in the Human forum because nobody posts in the Human forum, not because everyone wants to see it back that badly.

Cap_Man
02-28-2008, 03:05 PM
I like the way HV works now, granted it would be nice if it was a passive ability but then I could see how it would be viewed as over powered.

It would also be nice if it stacked wih the similar rogue's boosts but hey, I don't have the AP's to afford both lines anyway.

One thing I don't like about it is that is shares the same timer as the rogues Haste Boost. Why? What does a rogues haste boost have to do with anything HV? :confused:

In the boss fights it would be nice to hit the rogues hast boost AND the HV attack boost.

When they reworked HV, I dropped the Rogues Skill boost and took HV which gave me the same skill boost plus an Attack, Damage and Saves boost

Skill Boost - Good on elite When failure is not an option
Attack Boost - Good for end bosses
Damage Boost - Good for undead and constructs etc
Save Boost - Good when up against Beholds, nasty casters and high dc trap saves

So, where as Human Versitility is not a passive skill that gives you 20 feats :rolleyes: ... it was a very good trade off for the Rogues Skills boost.

Tanka
02-28-2008, 03:31 PM
All boosts share the same timer, which is annoying for some aspects (Skill + Sprint, for instance), but understandable to avoid the things that can make it overpowered.

Solmage
02-29-2008, 09:52 AM
I use it all the time to.... Still like the way it used to be more... and that and Turbine not working on an expansion are the only things turbine has ever done to disappoint me

Ditto.

I'd much rather get a say +3 passive bonus.

llevenbaxx
03-20-2008, 03:26 PM
All boosts share the same timer, which is annoying for some aspects (Skill + Sprint, for instance), but understandable to avoid the things that can make it overpowered.

I would be fine with them sharing the same timer if they didnt share the same counter. I make good use of HV in its current form, even the saves boost, but wouldnt mind picking up the first tier of the ftr haste(or rogue w/e) boost also. Sharing the same counter is very bad design as it basically rules them out as the beneficial options they should be. This further diminishes the value of HV imo.

I kinda like using it for to hit and damage along with skills when the situation is right. I dont think they would ever let it be used for all of these things as a passive bonus, for that reason alone I like it as is. The AC boost with imp Uncanny dodge is nothing to sneeze at for those very difficult times either.

Tanka
03-20-2008, 05:44 PM
They don't share the same counter.

I have HV and Fighter Haste on Tanka. Using one does not deplete the other.

Cuth
05-21-2008, 09:33 AM
I've got the agree with the OP here.

The Human enhancement package is very weak compared to the other races.

Dwarves have htps, axe bonuses (that's 5 weapons -- good any build that hits stuff ... 2H, 2wf, 1H), tactics, extra SP for clerics, extra AC for tanks, spell defense and search (key stat for rogues).

[The contention that "skill characters" would be automatically "gimped" because they were not human, is the exact issue we have now where "tanks" are considered "gimped' if they are non-dwarf.]

Elves have AC for casters, extra SP for wizards, longsword / rapier bonus (rapier is probably the best non-exotic weapon in the game), bow bonus, search skill (key stat for rogues). [Drow are basically the same, so I'm not going to bother]

Halflings are actually pretty even to humans, but they are getting a bump this mod. They get Saving Throw bonuses, Hero Helper, and Flanking bonuses.

Humans get Improved Recovery (of disputable worth) and Versatility

I would propose the following:
1. Human Versatility offers you the ability to raise any TWO skills or abilities (Attack Bonus, Haste, Sprint, AC, etc) as though they were a basic racial skill. So for example, on a rogue, you could raise UMD and Search as though they were racial skills.
2. Humans should receive a "favored weapon type" like the other races receive, but in line with the other Human enhancements (like their stat bump), they can choose 2 weapons but only get +1 to hit / +1 damage. So a dwarf gets +2/+2 with Axes, but a Human could choose +1/+1 with a light pick, and with a heavy pick.

Thoughts?

Tanka
05-21-2008, 09:35 AM
Meh. Honestly, the +1/+1 to two stats is pretty nice. And if you're a Fighter with gobs of Feats and want a Dragonmark, the Extra Dragonmarks are nice.

You're right there's no "tons of HP" option, nor "better static saves" option, but a Human is supposed to be versatile, not pigeonholed.

krud
05-21-2008, 10:08 AM
They don't share the same counter.

I have HV and Fighter Haste on Tanka. Using one does not deplete the other.

I think he meant timer.

I have a ftr/rog who uses his HV boosts a lot. I find it very useful for running traps. Uncanny dodge and HV are on separate timers so I can get up to a +11 boost to my saves when running traps. I also picked up the rogue skill boost II, so when I need a little help searching for traps I don't have to burn the more useful HV boosts. When I get to big fights I can use my remaining HV attack boosts to help out.

I'm not sure which setup I would like more (the passive skills or the current boosts) as I get some very good benefits either way. When they initially changed HV I suggested breaking up the skills into 3 separate passive lines, but never got any responses:

Human communications versatility - +1/2/3 to CHA skills
Human mental versatility - +1/2/3 to INT and WIS skills
Human physical versatility - +1/2/3 to STR, DEX, CON skills

maybe they could keep the HV human armor/save/attack boosts as is and call it Human combat versatility.

Sani_Medicor
06-09-2008, 08:36 PM
I'm enjoying the ability to boost my attacks, damages, and ac on my monk.

villainsimple
06-21-2008, 09:50 AM
I'm enjoying the ability to boost my attacks, damages, and ac on my monk.

And our dwarven friends are enjoying their ability to enhance their ac, axe damage/attack, saves, and whatever else... ALL THE TIME.

But enjoy your 20 seconds of +5 damage.


Tanka is a hardcore pro dwarf guy, if you ever even begin to suggest anything that'll come close to approaching warves in power he'll scream hystierics and start dishing out the "free feat" routine.

IT'S 929587943759 FREE FEATS... THAT'S SO IMBALANCED. *SHRIEK!*


but... how important is "move silently to a level 16 fighter that enver invested in it?

*SHRIEK!* IT'S A FREE FEAT, IT'S A FREE FEAT, IT'S A FREE FEAT. IT'S 20 FREE FEATS! *SHRIEK!*


But what about Dwarves? Dwarves get all kinds of "free feats", don't they? They have the best enhancements in the game, and they all stack.

*SHRIEK!* HOW DARE YOU BRING DWARVES INTO THIS... HOW DARE YOU *SHRIEK!* DWARVES AREN'T OVER POWERED! THEY'RE BALANCE! *SHRIEK!*

*sigh*

Nevermind.

Tanka
06-21-2008, 05:36 PM
Oh, you're back? Wonderful.

You don't get it, man. You still don't.

HV as it was was broken. Period.

Is this version perfect? No. But a static, permanent, always on bonus to all skills is not acceptable.

Lithic
06-21-2008, 08:12 PM
Oh, you're back? Wonderful.

You don't get it, man. You still don't.

HV as it was was broken. Period.

Is this version perfect? No. But a static, permanent, always on bonus to all skills is not acceptable.

Hmm 8 months and still getting responses. Weird.

Anyway a perm static bonus would be VERY acceptable. +1/2/3 for 1/2/3 (or hell even 2/4/6) would make humans decent at least. And tanka, YOU still dont get it. Humans have NOTHING that comes close to what dwarves, elves, drow, WF or even halflings get now. Versitility is nice, but how would you like it if your axe attack was +5 to damage for 20seconds 5/day? Not very much I bet.

Considering a dwarf (Yes i like picking on the master race) can spend 10 action points to get the equivalent of 3 toughness feats right now, or to get a stacking equivalent to weapon focus +weapon specialization + greater weapon focus, or multiple extra mithral fluidity feats that affect ALL armour (Armour mastery) I hardly consider a +3 to all skills as overwhelming.

You say humans shouldnt be pigeonholed with specific bonuses? Well right now they are pigeonholed as "Race with worst enhancements ever". Maybe if they had the option of getting +1 to three stats it would help. But as they are, anyone who says human enhancements are in balance with other races is seriously deluded.

Tanka
06-21-2008, 08:24 PM
I haven't argued that Humans are balanced in terms of Enhancements in some time. I have, however, stated many times that the old HV was broken. It isn't perfect in its current form, but a persistent bonus to all your skills is broken. All Human builds back then had HV, and if they weren't, they were laughed at and told they were gimped.

When an Enhancement is so powerful that every successful build implements it, it is broken. When it allows a multi-classed character to be far superior to a dominant-class build, it is broken.

Yes, Dwarves need their Enhancements looked at. So do Barbarians. And every other class/race in the game.

In fact, Enhancements are the predominant reason that the game is so out of balance. Without them the game would be far closer to PnP than it currently is.

krud
06-21-2008, 08:48 PM
nm

original text: "what about barb crit rage?"

...sorry tanka

Tanka
06-21-2008, 08:51 PM
Barb Crit Rage, Dwarven Axe Enhancements, Elven Melee Enhancements for any rapier/longsword user, Drow Melee Enhancements for any rapier/shortsword user (aka any TWF)...

Dwarves just happen to have more overall because they get +2 Con, +2 to-hit/damage with axes, possible +100 HP for 20APs (after taking one Toughness)...

Dwarves are overall the most imbalanced race, yes, but others aren't balanced just because they aren't as over the top as Dwarves are.


nm
Gee, thanks. Now I look like a total loon. :p

Lithic
06-21-2008, 08:58 PM
Barb Crit Rage, Dwarven Axe Enhancements, Elven Melee Enhancements for any rapier/longsword user, Drow Melee Enhancements for any rapier/shortsword user (aka any TWF)...

Dwarves just happen to have more overall because they get +2 Con, +2 to-hit/damage with axes, possible +100 HP for 20APs (after taking one Toughness)...

Dwarves are overall the most imbalanced race, yes, but others aren't balanced just because they aren't as over the top as Dwarves are.


Gee, thanks. Now I look like a total loon. :p

Well as long as we agree that dwarves (and other races to a lesser extent) are disgustingly overpowered compared to humans :D

Problem is, the game is balanced for the disgustingly overpowered races. Humans need something to compete. In another thread I proposed that humans should have access to most of the other races enhancements, but only to half the tiers, rounded up (so 1 tier for enahncments with 1 or 2 tiers, 2 for those with 3 or 4 tiers. Example, human toughness 1 and 2). This would give the humans a wide variety of enhancments to choose from, yet not allow them to specialize as far as other races.

The premise behind this is that human civilizations are so diverse that you can justify any racial tendency, though perhaps not as far as the pigeonholed races. A human village could be very much into axes, and get the +1 to hit/damage that dwarves can get (but not up to +2/2), a coven of thieves could specialize in backstabbing, mimiking the halfling guile enhancements, etc.

Tanka
06-21-2008, 09:08 PM
Realistically, all of the PrC Enhancements should be available to everyone. Limiting them to only one class is completely against what PnP rules stand for.

Aranticus
06-21-2008, 09:34 PM
HV =/= versatility of humans.

what humans should have are lines of enhancements at half the cost but 1/2 as powerful, this way humans will then be truely versatile.

ie human damage (1AP) - deals 1 extra point of damage with ANY weapon (enhancement stops there, no human damage II unless other races can get damage III)

ie human toughness - toughness I (2AP) +10 hp, toughness II (3AP) +15 hp

ie human tactics - tactics I (2AP) +1 to combat feats, tactics II (3AP) additional +1 to combat feats

ie human enlightenment - enlightenment I (2AP) +10 sp, enlightenment (3AP) +20 sp

these are just some suggestions powerful? no versatile? if you have many lines available, you are truely versatile. master of none but jack of all trades

llevenbaxx
06-24-2008, 08:47 AM
I think they couldve done much better with the "new" HV, like longer timer for example, it does however give Humans a great deal of versatility if you choose to use it.

I think a big problem with it is its not abundantly apparent when or how its to be used. Most other race enhancements have a single purpose or at least a general build path to go with. Human versatility is like the opposite of this, it leaves it up to the player where it fits.

Still find it(use at least 4 of the 5) useful in its degraded form for both my MC rog and pure monk but if they really are going to center a races' enhancement around this, it could definitely use some bolstering.

Noctus
06-28-2008, 07:12 PM
Humans have NOTHING that comes close to what dwarves, elves, drow, WF or even halflings get now.

Yes. That is the central problem.

The question isnot if the old HV was broken or not. Its gone for good.
The question is : What can humans get to put their racial enhancements up to par with the other races?

Because currently they are far behind.

Naash
06-30-2008, 05:12 PM
I haven't argued that Humans are balanced in terms of Enhancements in some time. I have, however, stated many times that the old HV was broken. It isn't perfect in its current form, but a persistent bonus to all your skills is broken. All Human builds back then had HV, and if they weren't, they were laughed at and told they were gimped.

When an Enhancement is so powerful that every successful build implements it, it is broken. When it allows a multi-classed character to be far superior to a dominant-class build, it is broken.

Yes, Dwarves need their Enhancements looked at. So do Barbarians. And every other class/race in the game.

In fact, Enhancements are the predominant reason that the game is so out of balance. Without them the game would be far closer to PnP than it currently is.

Since enhancements are here to stay how about a compromise?
A static +3 boost (at the top level) to only a handful of skills,broken into groups perhaps.

Example:
HV Athletics: Jump,Balance,Swim
HV People Skills: Haggle,Bluff,Diplomacy
HV Survival: Repair,Heal,UMD

I know these sound like the skill feats but instead of my examples the Dev's could mix in a couple of less desirable skills with one good one to even things out.

Tanka
06-30-2008, 10:08 PM
Nobody should have access to an Enhancement that boosts UMD permanently. I don't like Spellsinger for this very reason.

Noctus
07-01-2008, 03:42 PM
Nobody should have access to an Enhancement that boosts UMD permanently. I don't like Spellsinger for this very reason.

Why?
What makes it, in your opinion, so terribly unbalancing?

Tanka
07-01-2008, 10:26 PM
Why?
What makes it, in your opinion, so terribly unbalancing?
Any one point increase to UMD is an extra 5% towards succeeding on casting a spell that is not in a character's spell list. In this is included: Heal, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Restoration, Greater Restoration, Enervation, True Seeing, Greater Herosim, Dimension Door (assuming scrolls), Firewall (assuming scrolls), Holy Aura (assuming scrolls)...

Do you get the idea?

Increments to UMD should only be attained through skill points, Charisma and feats. Even the Competence bonuses provided by such things as the Golden Cartouche or Seven Fingered Gloves are, IMO, a bit overpowering.

An Enhancement bonus to UMD would further imbalance the skill. I don't want the skill removed, but I want to make it harder to get such an absurdly high bonus.

Naash
07-02-2008, 05:05 PM
Any one point increase to UMD is an extra 5% towards succeeding on casting a spell that is not in a character's spell list. In this is included: Heal, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Restoration, Greater Restoration, Enervation, True Seeing, Greater Herosim, Dimension Door (assuming scrolls), Firewall (assuming scrolls), Holy Aura (assuming scrolls)...

Do you get the idea?

Increments to UMD should only be attained through skill points, Charisma and feats. Even the Competence bonuses provided by such things as the Golden Cartouche or Seven Fingered Gloves are, IMO, a bit overpowering.

An Enhancement bonus to UMD would further imbalance the skill. I don't want the skill removed, but I want to make it harder to get such an absurdly high bonus.

Alright,barring UMD what do you think of my compromise idea then?

Tanka
07-02-2008, 10:13 PM
I feel that any Human Enhancements (or, well, any racial Enhancements) should count towards other class/racial Enhancement pre-reqs.

No having to take Rogue Skill Boost 2 for WotM if you already have HV2. No needing Rogue Balance 2 for WotTA if you already have Orien Balance 2. etc etc.

Skill groupings I'd like to see, but not until they give them for classes.

The Enhancement system is the most broken part of DDO. It gives us a +3-+5 bonus to a stat, extra SP, extra uses of abilities, higher levels of spell pen/spell damage/spell crit chances, higher HP (doubly so for Dwarves), higher PA exchanges...

"Fixing" HV won't go anywhere towards balancing Humans with other races. Fixing the Enhancement system itself might, but that remains to be seen.

yankonis0
07-05-2008, 12:11 AM
I am confused as to why +3 to all skills was over powered. Except on rogues most skills seem kind of like fluff.

Tanka
07-05-2008, 02:21 AM
Imagine, if you will, a static stacking +3 bonus to all skills. A Skill Focus for every skill, for a low low cost (6 AP, if memory serves).

Now, imagine, that every build with UMD was Human or it was gimped. Same goes for Rogues. That's an automatic 15% extra success rate with very little investment.

Also imagine, the original Batman Build. High AC, Evasion, and full Rogue skills thanks to the old HV. In fact, some Batman Builds were better Rogues with a mere 2 Rogue splash than full Rogues were.

mgoldb2
07-05-2008, 02:36 AM
Imagine, if you will, a static stacking +3 bonus to all skills. A Skill Focus for every skill, for a low low cost (6 AP, if memory serves).

Now, imagine, that every build with UMD was Human or it was gimped. Same goes for Rogues. That's an automatic 15% extra success rate with very little investment.

Also imagine, the original Batman Build. High AC, Evasion, and full Rogue skills thanks to the old HV. In fact, some Batman Builds were better Rogues with a mere 2 Rogue splash than full Rogues were.

It was a long time ago we had the old human ver and level cap I believe was 12 when it disappeared? If it was a perm skill bonus in current game I don’t thing people would consider none human gimp at all there would still be many reasons other races would be a good or better choice. It was a very different game back when we had the old human ver.

+3 to all skills in current ddo is not game breaking.

yankonis0
07-05-2008, 09:50 AM
Imagine, if you will, a static stacking +3 bonus to all skills. A Skill Focus for every skill, for a low low cost (6 AP, if memory serves).

Now, imagine, that every build with UMD was Human or it was gimped. Same goes for Rogues. That's an automatic 15% extra success rate with very little investment.

Also imagine, the original Batman Build. High AC, Evasion, and full Rogue skills thanks to the old HV. In fact, some Batman Builds were better Rogues with a mere 2 Rogue splash than full Rogues were.

I still don't see it. Besides a rogue +3 to all skills just doesn't seem at all usefull. I am not advocating for it to be back to the old way (as like I said I can't see it as usefull for 7/8 classes), but I can not see your position on it.

Tanka
07-05-2008, 10:48 AM
I still don't see it. Besides a rogue +3 to all skills just doesn't seem at all usefull. I am not advocating for it to be back to the old way (as like I said I can't see it as usefull for 7/8 classes), but I can not see your position on it.
Human Sorcs with an extra 15% success rate on UMD (which isn't a class skill)? Or, really, Human anything with a 15% extra success rate on any skill they want?

It's a free stacking Skill Focus in every skill in the game. Some skills are less useful, yes, but some are blatantly overpowered.

When a 2 Rogue splash is out-Rogue-ing the pure Rogue in the group, it's time for a change.

Lithic
07-05-2008, 11:34 AM
Human Sorcs with an extra 15% success rate on UMD (which isn't a class skill)? Or, really, Human anything with a 15% extra success rate on any skill they want?

It's a free stacking Skill Focus in every skill in the game. Some skills are less useful, yes, but some are blatantly overpowered.

When a 2 Rogue splash is out-Rogue-ing the pure Rogue in the group, it's time for a change.

Your rogue argument loses its steam past lvl 10. Even if you assume a +3 to DD, OL, Search and spot, compared to the +40-50 (or 60) that rogues already have in those skills its paltry. Sure it allows a pure rogue who maxes Int, maxes enhancements, gets all the best gear to have the highest possible in those skills, but you can easily be 10pts behind the max and still get everything on a 1 (except maybe cabal). In any case, OL is irrelevant as you cannot fail and door DCs are pathetically low (my rogue doesnt even carry an OL item), spot is mostly irrelevant due to evasion and +40 reflex vs traps. That leaves search (which elfs/dwarfs get up to +6 to due to racial enhancements) and disable device (which only needs to be maxed out for one trap in the whole game).

Other than UMD, the rest of the skills are completely irrelevant to 99% of DDO.
Maybe you can come up with a serious reason why +3 to balance, bluff, concentration, diplomacy, haggle, heal, hide, jump, listen, move silently, perform, repair, swim, or tumble is overpowered, but I would laugh in your face and put you on ignore. There are no instances, no builds where that would be critical for any of those skills. Some might be nice, but hardly something to choose a race for.

That leaves UMD and Intimidate. As for intimidate, +3 is nice, but if it was important than most intimitanks wouldnt start with an 8 charisma. Or even a 6.

That means for non-rogues, HV would basically be a skill focus: UMD. Hardly overpowered compared to toughness enhancements (dwarf), dwarven axe or elf melee/bow enhancements (weapon focus + spec that stacks), halfling sneak bonuses (+4 to hit, +8 to damage while flanking).

For rogues? I means you dont have to worry about having the best items in the game to keep up on elite. +44 instead of +41. Nice, but hardly the game-breaker you speak of. There will still be dwarf melee strength rogues. There will still be lots of DPS halfling sneak attackers. Lots of elf bow users.

As for cost, it would likely be a 2/4/6 progression.

Every other race has their own super-powered enhancements. Its time the devs either nerf those for other races, or finally give humans back something they took away long ago. The kick in the teeth was that when we lost our Human versitility, dwarves then got a stacking racial +50 hp enhancement. That is arguably MUCH more usefull than any skill bonus. As of right now, except for the stat bonuses, I never take any human enhancement. Even the stat enhancements are less usefull than other races due to the inability to get +2 to a single stat. Im all for nerfing the **** out of dwarves though.

Tanka
07-05-2008, 11:49 AM
Yes, other races are overpowered. A lot.

Does that mean we should overpower Humans too? Nope. It means the Devs need to fix the overpowered Enhancements that other races get.

It's patently absurd to think that we should be considering a passive +3 Skill Focus to every skill for the cost of a few AP.

Lithic
07-05-2008, 11:58 AM
Yes, other races are overpowered. A lot.

Does that mean we should overpower Humans too? Nope. It means the Devs need to fix the overpowered Enhancements that other races get.

It's patently absurd to think that we should be considering a passive +3 Skill Focus to every skill for the cost of a few AP.

Does it mean we should bring humans to the level of EVERY OTHER RACE? A Resounding YES!. Devs have left (and even improved) the overpowered racial enhancements to bring others in line with dwarves. Why should humans be the only ones left out in the cold? How much would you like playing your fighter if barbs had crit Rage 5, while fighters had nothing worth taking? THAT my friend is the state of the game for humans today. And your +3 skill focus to every usefull skill boils down to ONE skill for non-rogues, 3 for rogues as outlined above.

Anyway, the devs are never gonna nerf the overpowered racial enhancements (or even the class ones). The evidence? A years worth of Barb crit rage 2. Theres also a post by someone (Eladrinn I think) from a few months back saying they were taking a look at enhancements, but that they didnt want to take away theones people loved (which are obviously the powerfull ones).

THat being the case, the only solution is to gives humans a reason to spend points on racial enhancements.

Another option is to give humans to all the other racial enhancements, but 1 tier less at maximum. THat would truly make them versitile, give them some good enhancements,

Tanka
07-05-2008, 12:43 PM
Frankly, I'm quite happy with Tanka as a Human.

Would he have more HP as a Dwarf? Certainly.

Would he do more damage as a pure Barb rather than the amalgamation of classes he is now? Yes.

Would he have far better saves as a Pure Pally? Of course.

But I like my Human builds. I like their versatility. They can do many things well. With a current UMD of 42, all saves at 29 or higher, Evasion, 32 Str, Power Attack... I really don't see the need to give them anything overpowered.

Enhancements overpower the character, but the player defines it. Advocating for change is one thing, but asking them to go back on a pertinent design decision is a waste of time.

Lithic
07-05-2008, 02:25 PM
Sure your batman might be good as a human. You could make a character with all 8s in their stats, load em with decent gear and give it to a decent player and have a viable endgame build. Thats not the point. Your tanka's versitility is easily duplicated by any other race.

The point is that other races can do anything humans can, and then get stacks of bonuses above and beyond. Change that dwarf favor character of yours into a human, keep all gear and stats the same, and I dare you to keep a straight face when telling me he doesnt lose a significant portion. Probably loses about 80hp, probably loses +2 to hit and damage, loses effectivness when stunning or tripping, etc. What does he gain? Oooooo +10% healing bonus. Maybe +20% if you really wanted to throw away your points.

Anyway I am still waiting for you to come up with a viable reason why humans need to be kept with ZERO uesfull enhancements, while all others have extremely attractive ones. Especially when in relation to a proposed enhancement that pales in comparison to other race's combat enhancements (And you are kidding yourself if you think combat is not over 99% of DDO).

Noctus
07-05-2008, 03:40 PM
I completly concure with LithicĀ“s posts.



Originally Posted by Tanka
Yes, other races are overpowered. A lot.

If the other races are overpowered, you have to turn your argument around. Overpowered means over the power of most (or all) others. But if all are over your power level its not them who are overpowered, its yo who is under-powered.

All Races should have roughly the same power level in their racial enhancements.
Dwarfes are over-average, Humans are way under-average. The other races are roughly equal in the usefullness of their enhancements.

You sem to get gray hairs about the equivalent to a skill-focus feat which could be obtained through enhancements, yet you dont start to complain when Drow, Dwarfs, Elfs get the equivalent of Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Focus throug their enhancemnts. Not just in 20-sec-bursts, but over the course of the whole quest.


The best idea yet was the one of Aranticus:

what humans should have are lines of enhancements at half the cost but 1/2 as powerful, this way humans will then be truely versatile.

ie human damage (1AP) - deals 1 extra point of damage with ANY weapon (enhancement stops there, no human damage II unless other races can get damage III)

ie human toughness - toughness I (2AP) +10 hp, toughness II (3AP) +15 hp

ie human tactics - tactics I (2AP) +1 to combat feats, tactics II (3AP) additional +1 to combat feats

ie human enlightenment - enlightenment I (2AP) +10 sp, enlightenment (3AP) +20 sp

these are just some suggestions powerful? no versatile? if you have many lines available, you are truely versatile. master of none but jack of all trades

yankonis0
07-05-2008, 11:47 PM
Human Sorcs with an extra 15% success rate on UMD (which isn't a class skill)? Or, really, Human anything with a 15% extra success rate on any skill they want?

It's a free stacking Skill Focus in every skill in the game. Some skills are less useful, yes, but some are blatantly overpowered.

When a 2 Rogue splash is out-Rogue-ing the pure Rogue in the group, it's time for a change.


And does that apply to anything other then theve skills + UMD? You know dwarves get a 3 skill point armor reduction. That is almost the same thing for every thing but UMD

edit: plus dwarfs and elves all get the eqivelent of warriors weapon specilization and focus. Not to mention halflings get equivilent of dodge, 5xweapon spec, luck of hero's. yet humans get 1 bonus feet....

Tanka
07-06-2008, 12:04 AM
Sure your batman might be good as a human. You could make a character with all 8s in their stats, load em with decent gear and give it to a decent player and have a viable endgame build. Thats not the point. Your tanka's versitility is easily duplicated by any other race.

The point is that other races can do anything humans can, and then get stacks of bonuses above and beyond. Change that dwarf favor character of yours into a human, keep all gear and stats the same, and I dare you to keep a straight face when telling me he doesnt lose a significant portion. Probably loses about 80hp, probably loses +2 to hit and damage, loses effectivness when stunning or tripping, etc. What does he gain? Oooooo +10% healing bonus. Maybe +20% if you really wanted to throw away your points.

Anyway I am still waiting for you to come up with a viable reason why humans need to be kept with ZERO uesfull enhancements, while all others have extremely attractive ones. Especially when in relation to a proposed enhancement that pales in comparison to other race's combat enhancements (And you are kidding yourself if you think combat is not over 99% of DDO).
Actually, no, the Tanka build would, by definition, not be better suited as any other race. Only Humans get the Passage Dragonmark, which is what Tanka is built around. 9 16min Expeditious Retreats, 7 DimDoors and 5 Teleports prove this to be true immediately.

Beyond that, +2 Cha over Dwarves for +1 to all saves (yes, Dwarves can beat that with Enhancements -- I'm not denying that much) and +1 to UMD, plus a boostable +5 if I happen to need it.

Those Expeditious Retreats also allow for different item allocation. Boots of the Innocent + Head of Good Fortune rather than 30% Striders + Kardin's Eye, for instance.

So, yes, a Dwarven Tanka build would lose a lot -- namely the Passage Dragonmarks. Is it party-saving? No. But it makes for faster questing in many quests, like Titan for instance.

That aside; I'm not disagreeing that Human Enhancements are ****. I'm saying that the old HV was broken broken broken. Every Human had it, and if they didn't, they were gimped according to the forums. Making a non-Human Rogue was gimpy because you couldn't have those extra 3 points in all your skills.

Human Sorcs were better than Drow Sorcs because of the +3 boost as well. They could meet the same Charisma, albeit with a +3 Cha tome, but could drop two or four of their APs into +Cha.

Same with Human Wizards.

So, no, what Humans don't need is a passive +3 to all skills. What they do need is better Enhancements, yes. Things like the aforementioned other Enhancements at -1 tier, which works very well for, y'know, Versatility.

Tanka
07-06-2008, 12:06 AM
And does that apply to anything other then theve skills + UMD? You know dwarves get a 3 skill point armor reduction. That is almost the same thing for every thing but UMD

edit: plus dwarfs and elves all get the eqivelent of warriors weapon specilization and focus. Not to mention halflings get equivilent of dodge, weapon spec, luck of hero's. yet humans get 1 bonus feet....
Actually, the only thing the Dwarven reduction is for are Balance, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Swim (double penalty) and Tumble. That leaves Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Haggle, Heal, Intimidate, Listen, Open Lock, Perform, Repair, Search, Spot and Use Magic Device.

Again, I'm not saying other races aren't overpowered. Just that there's a better way to bring Humans back up to par.

Lithic
07-06-2008, 12:10 AM
And does that apply to anything other then theve skills + UMD? You know dwarves get a 3 skill point armor reduction. That is almost the same thing for every thing but UMD

edit: plus dwarfs and elves all get the eqivelent of warriors weapon specilization and focus. Not to mention halflings get equivilent of dodge, weapon spec, luck of hero's. yet humans get 1 bonus feet....

Good to have you on my side, but...
The human extra feat and halfling bonus to AC are racial abilities, not enhancements. They are abilities given to the races by the player's handbook, and so are completely irrelevant to any discussion on enhancements, except perhaps as a basis for certain races gaining certain enhancement trees (such as dwarves getting con stat bonus enhancemnets due to their innate +2 to con).

yankonis0
07-06-2008, 01:30 AM
Good to have you on my side, but...
The human extra feat and halfling bonus to AC are racial abilities, not enhancements. They are abilities given to the races by the player's handbook, and so are completely irrelevant to any discussion on enhancements, except perhaps as a basis for certain races gaining certain enhancement trees (such as dwarves getting con stat bonus enhancemnets due to their innate +2 to con).

It's the entire package, enhancements and starting abilities, humans just don't mesure up in either.