PDA

View Full Version : Simple way to add more solo quests



NiasTrams
10-18-2007, 07:43 AM
Do not modify the quests, modify the bonuses and penalty system.

The servers already keep track of how many players enter a quest. If only 1 (one) player, 14th level for example, enters a 10th level quest for example, have positive bonuses offset penalties for being higher level. (I do not know if anyone has suggested offsetting penalties for soloing lower level quest before.)

This can also work for smaller than planned parties, if only 2 people enter than a different set of offsetting bonuses, and also for 3 and 4 players.

These are only off-setting bonuses, they do not increase the XP yield of the quest, they only offset penalties for being higher level but with a smaller party.

Sometimes I am in full parties, but many times I am soloing because I am on so many hours and like to take my time doing things.

Hand in hand with this idea is having rest shrines reset after "x" amount of minutes since last use. I would suggest 5 minutes for only 1 or 2 people and 10 minutes for 3 or 4 people. The only way this can increase how much XP they can get for doing the quest is by allowing them to max out already defined bonuses that a full party can get.

These two modifications now make almost every quest a solo possible quest or for smaller parties, same quest as before, but more challanging with fewer players; almost equivilant to new content, especially for people trying to do favor runs while also levelling up. Example, "None of my friends or guildies are on right now, maybe I will go run some of those quests for favor since I can get XP for them now".

Dariun
10-18-2007, 07:55 AM
The servers already keep track of how many players enter a quest. If only 1 (one) player, 14th level for example, enters a 10th level quest for example, have positive bonuses offset penalties for being higher level. (I do not know if anyone has suggested offsetting penalties for soloing lower level quest before.)


It has been suggested before. It was a great idea then. It is a great idea now.

Some people think if this happens a bunch of people will quit because they can't find parties and 9 servers will get shut down. They are wrong.

Tenkari_Rozahas
10-18-2007, 08:13 AM
then, by your reasoning, wouldnt you incur more penalties if you go above the recommended party size?

Dariun
10-18-2007, 08:52 AM
then, by your reasoning, wouldnt you incur more penalties if you go above the recommended party size?

Yes, but the recommended party size is 4-6...

Tenkari_Rozahas
10-18-2007, 08:58 AM
Yes, but the recommended party size is 4-6...

actually, all dungeons are based off of a "4 person" party, aside from raids. so thus, any 5-6 person partys would be over the default.

jjflanigan
10-18-2007, 09:03 AM
This was brought up during beta and for a while right after release. The main argument against it is that the developers envision DDO as being a group-focused game. To this end they don't want to reward people for doing things outside of the group. This was also, I'd assume, a large reason for the change to raid loot. They wanted people to do them in full raids so they made it worse for people to short-man the raids.

Dariun
10-18-2007, 03:30 PM
actually, all dungeons are based off of a "4 person" party, aside from raids. so thus, any 5-6 person partys would be over the default.

Well, I wish all dungeons actually were based on a "4 person" party (they are til about level 8, I think, then you need more power).

I'd be perfectly happy if quest XP was divided by party size, but after over 18 months it is too late to take things away (IMO) without a very very good reason.

Dariun
10-18-2007, 03:33 PM
This was brought up during beta and for a while right after release. The main argument against it is that the developers envision DDO as being a group-focused game. To this end they don't want to reward people for doing things outside of the group. This was also, I'd assume, a large reason for the change to raid loot. They wanted people to do them in full raids so they made it worse for people to short-man the raids.

Yes, this is the usual argument against providing any benefit to smaller groups.

I think it is flawed because making the game more fun for smaller groups would make it appealing to more people and increase the overall subsciber base. Having a large player base with 50% playing in small groups is better than having a small player base with only 20% playing in small groups.

MysticTheurge
10-18-2007, 03:45 PM
This was brought up during beta and for a while right after release. The main argument against it is that the developers envision DDO as being a group-focused game. To this end they don't want to reward people for doing things outside of the group. This was also, I'd assume, a large reason for the change to raid loot. They wanted people to do them in full raids so they made it worse for people to short-man the raids.

I'm not a big fan of scaling the XP based on group size in general for the reasons you provide. That is, I don't want to see a pool of X experience points where six-person groups divide it six ways and two-person groups each get half.

But I don't think it would be a bad thing, necessarily, to have a, say, +20% XP bonus for soloing a quest provided (as the OP says) this bonus only goes to offset penalties for being over-level. Soloing quests at your level can't get you 120% XP, but soloing quests slightly below your level can still get you something closer to 100% XP.

Spectralist
10-18-2007, 04:08 PM
But I don't think it would be a bad thing, necessarily, to have a, say, +20% XP bonus for soloing a quest provided (as the OP says) this bonus only goes to offset penalties for being over-level. Soloing quests at your level can't get you 120% XP, but soloing quests slightly below your level can still get you something closer to 100% XP.

I agree. Though i would take it one step further and allow it to offset any penalty type. Reentry, over level, or repetitious completion. I'd set it +10% to offset, per person less then 4.

0% for 6, 5, 4
10% for 3
20% for 2
30% for 1.

That way, you could solo stuff your own level, and if you have to reenter the quest you don't have to take the penalty, especially good since if you die while soloing you generally have to take double penalty. Death penalty, and reentry penalty.

NiasTrams
10-18-2007, 05:53 PM
Well, I wish all dungeons actually were based on a "4 person" party (they are til about level 8, I think, then you need more power).

I'd be perfectly happy if quest XP was divided by party size, but after over 18 months it is too late to take things away (IMO) without a very very good reason.

I don't see how this is taking anything away from parties with 4 to 6 players, please elaborate on how it is.

Dariun
10-18-2007, 06:46 PM
I don't see how this is taking anything away from parties with 4 to 6 players, please elaborate on how it is.

Because if XP is divided by number of players, a party of 6 will get less XP per player than a party of 5, and a party of 5 will get less XP per player than a party of 4, etc.

But your original proposal doesn't take anything away from a party of 4-6, and I think it is a good idea. I was commenting on the (my) idea that total quest XP be divided by # of players in group (you know, like in D&D...).

Zenako
10-18-2007, 07:08 PM
However, the paradigm that the developers are using is a "Group based quest" and not a "solo activity game". All rewards EXP, treasure, etc were developed (and now reflect this with changes to raid loot) to support and drive this concept.

Any incentive to reduce party size by making it more rewarding runs counter to this design goal. So I do not ever forsee them changing the methodolgy for experience awards.

Now on the other hand, are there thing they could do to make it more feasible to run small groups or solo? Sure, your resetting shrines idea has some merit, BUT, it needs to reset for all groups, not just for short man runs. Otherwise you have built into the game a disincentive to bring in that 5th player to a group. We have 4 now and the shrines will reset after ten minutes, but if we add a fifth they will never reset. Um, that will have to be some sort of awesome 5th toon to get an invite from any party.

They have already changed the Resurection shrines to unlimited. That helps. The Rest Shrines are the ones in question. Perhaps work it this way. They start with a full charge for everyone. Once you tap it, it begins to recharge for each character in the quest. Something on the order of healing in an Inn for instance will reflect how many health and spell points that shrine is now capable of restoring to the same character if they use it again. Using some general numbers, the Capacity for healing would never exceed the default healing boost you could normally get. The spell point recharge potential would increase. Right now spell points come back at about 60 per minute in an Inn. So after 10 minutes since the last use, that Rest Shrine would have the potential to restore 600 spell points. A nasty ass 14th level sorc might have to wait 30 minutes to get a full charge back. While a moderate level Ranger might be good to go again in 5 minutes since the last use.

The MAIN reason people have to exit quests when running solo is lack of spell power. You can readily purchase all the healing you can afford, but Spell Pots are only found in the wild and not from any vendor. BY using a relatively slow recharge rate, that would allow shorter man groups to run some quests more successfully than they currently have. Most quests already have enough shrines in place to support normal runs without too much trouble (with a few exceptions of course).

MysticTheurge
10-18-2007, 07:47 PM
However, the paradigm that the developers are using is a "Group based quest" and not a "solo activity game". All rewards EXP, treasure, etc were developed (and now reflect this with changes to raid loot) to support and drive this concept.

Any incentive to reduce party size by making it more rewarding runs counter to this design goal. So I do not ever forsee them changing the methodolgy for experience awards.

Offering a solo option isn't the same thing as offering an incentive to reduce party size.

Ideals about "group based gaming" and the desire to not have this be a "solo game" are all well and good, but when push comes to shove there are just flat out some times when you can't or don't want to group. Maybe there's no one else in your level range looking for a group/member-like-you. Maybe you only have 20 minutes and don't want to join a Tangleroot run you're going to have to leave half way through. Maybe you just had a really ****** day at the office and don't want to deal with other people tonight.

This game absolutely needs more things to do while you're not in (or waiting to join) a group. That is, it needs more activities you can do "solo." These don't have to be quests; they could be crafting, or some other non-combat system for all I care. But we absolutely do need them. The explorer areas are a step in the right direction, but they're plagued by much the same problem that the OP references. Once you can solo them moderately easily you've pretty much out-leveled them and/or they don't offer much in the way of rewards (or those rewards are quite few and far between).

On one level I admire the game's dedication to the "treasure and XP are quest based not mob based" system (that is, individual creatures don't give XP/loot like in so many other games), but on another it's made dealing with this particular problem quite difficult.

wiglin
10-18-2007, 08:02 PM
Offering a solo option isn't the same thing as offering an incentive to reduce party size.

Ideals about "group based gaming" and the desire to not have this be a "solo game" are all well and good, but when push comes to shove there are just flat out some times when you can't or don't want to group. Maybe there's no one else in your level range looking for a group/member-like-you. Maybe you only have 20 minutes and don't want to join a Tangleroot run you're going to have to leave half way through. Maybe you just had a really ****** day at the office and don't want to deal with other people tonight.

This game absolutely needs more things to do while you're not in (or waiting to join) a group. That is, it needs more activities you can do "solo." These don't have to be quests; they could be crafting, or some other non-combat system for all I care. But we absolutely do need them. The explorer areas are a step in the right direction, but they're plagued by much the same problem that the OP references. Once you can solo them moderately easily you've pretty much out-leveled them and/or they don't offer much in the way of rewards (or those rewards are quite few and far between).

On one level I admire the game's dedication to the "treasure and XP are quest based not mob based" system (that is, individual creatures don't give XP/loot like in so many other games), but on another it's made dealing with this particular problem quite difficult.

QFT

jaitee
10-18-2007, 08:11 PM
do as most games do

i might be lvl 14 but sure ill bring the lvl 4 with us, although the lvl 4 will get 865 XP, and the lvl 14s will get 15k XP, he can still come

what ever level you are, you should be able to come along, that will help grouping alot!!!

without a penalty, of no XP, just make it so, the wider the range, the less XP you will get

this has been brought up before, i think its a great idea

NiasTrams
10-18-2007, 09:47 PM
I'd be perfectly happy if quest XP was divided by party size, but after over 18 months it is too late to take things away (IMO) without a very very good reason.

I do not see how this is taking something away, can you please elaborate.

Symar-FangofLloth
10-18-2007, 10:03 PM
I do not see how this is taking something away, can you please elaborate.

Suddenly... wham, in a full 6-man group all quests are now only giving you 1/6th the exp. It would take practically forever to level this way... and duoing would be about the most grouping anyone would do after that, except for raids and loot runs, where xp doesn't matter.
That's taking away a lot of xp from the game, and it's not the original suggestion nor the main topic.

NiasTrams
10-21-2007, 01:11 AM
Suddenly... wham, in a full 6-man group all quests are now only giving you 1/6th the exp. It would take practically forever to level this way... and duoing would be about the most grouping anyone would do after that, except for raids and loot runs, where xp doesn't matter.

My suggestion doesn't ask for any increase or decrease in the base value of any quest, and you can see the base value of any quest by pressing the "x" key if you did not change it with key-mapping in options.

Off-setting bonus dop not increase the base value of a quest, things like highest level character in party and repeated quest "x" times are the two main things that decrease the XP awarded, and yes I know if a full party of players go into a higher level quest there is a bonus given for that.


... and it's not the original suggestion nor the main topic.

As the original poster, NiasTrams, maybe you misunderstand me and my idea. As characters advance in levels their skills and abilities increase, something they may not of been able to do at level 7 but can do at level 11 allows then to solo many 7th level quests now, only problem is they need more time and must move more slowly and need to replenish their mana and HPs more often and this would leaving the dungeon unless rest shrines started resetting after "X" amount of time.

My 14th level sorc, with help of my 6th level bank, on a seperate account and PC, farms Crucible for elven relics to maintain repairs on his dragon scale armor. Most the time neither toon gets any XP, bank because he is with a toons more than 5 levels higher and the 14th level sorc is capped and if need to replish mana outside more than once doesn't even get the 1200+ xp he is capped at due to penalties. And since they corrected cloud kill and wall of fire, he usually gets his elven relics for about 10K to 15K XP debt.

I also run in parties, not just for raids (although mainly), but have done a couple quest in Orchard since it came out, plus a few others; but my favorite class and playing style are not highly sought after in Stormreach so I play my sorc and being a fun-time arsonist and haste dealer (most parties want from sorc) isn't that much fun for me either.

I know there are sorcs and other characters that can solo quests at their own level, but my skills are not up to their level, but I still would like to get rewarded for doing the lower level quests if the level difference isn't outrageous.

I think a 14th level toon of any class soloing a 9th level quest ought to be worth XP, even if only half the base value after all adjustments for penalties and bonuses. Off-setting bonuses do not add or stack with other bonuses, they only offset penalties for being higher level or re-entering a quest.

When I came to DDO from NWN, I was hoping to find a place to play for the next several years. I played NWN about 5 years on multiple servers run by different builders with different player based styles; but to be honest, about 80% of the content here doesn't appeal to me and my playing style.

I am not the only player asking for more content that can be run with fewer than the standard 6 man party.

These would be the same quests currently offered to the entire DDO community, but maybe only one or two of you are going into that quest that is rated for 6 - 9th level toons and you and your sole companion are 14th level each; right now when a 14th level toon steps into a 9th level quest there is a -75% penalty, because only 2 people entered the quest instead of 6 an off-setting penalty of +40% is subtracted from the -75% for only a
-35% penalty.

If the same 2 toons walk into a 14th level quest they are capped on the +40% can be used to off-set penalties that might accrue for leaving to get mana and going back inside, but the XP cap isn't raised.

The same 2 toons walk into a brand new 14th level quest (they are adventurous and confident in their skills), the +40% off-setting bonus can only be used if they exit and reenter the quest to offset that penalty, if they don't leave the quest and successfully complete it because they are very skilled, well stocked and work together well the +40% off-setting bonus doesn't get applied to the XP award, it is only there to offset penalties, not increase the XP award of a quest.

Going back and doing lower level quest for favor only doesn't appeal to me, getting 1750 in favor and the rewards associated with it don't matter to me. However; if the XP award system were modified and I got XP for soloing a 7th level quest, even if only 1,000 XP, I would be more willing to go back and do that content. Dying once would make it backsliding, XP wise, but at least the original goal was forward progression.

I do not know how to more clearly clarify what I am asking DDO Devs to do, and hope that those of you thinking I am asking for more XP to be awarded that I am only asking for less penalties for doing what we are already doing, playing the way we enjoy playing.