PDA

View Full Version : How hard could it be to code the Mystic Theurge prestige class?



Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 11:19 AM
As I see it, it really could not be that difficult, the spells are already in game, To make the class excel they would but need to only add in one feat. In my opinion it really could not be all that time consuming and it would send a great signal that Turbine is serious about adding at least some prestige classes.

Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?

Laith
10-17-2007, 11:22 AM
Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?the current class system probably doesn't support a system anywhere near similar to "+1 caster level to existing spellcaster class"

aside from that, once you implement one PrC, you better be dang well ready to add a bunch of others. if you don't, you've caused more harm than good.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 11:23 AM
the current class system probably doesn't support a system anywhere near similar to "+1 caster level to existing spellcaster class"

aside from that, once you implement one PrC, you better be dang well ready to add a bunch of others. if you don't, you've caused more harm than good.

How many PrC's would be acceptable in you opinion to roll out at once at the beginning? 4? 6? 2?

MrCow
10-17-2007, 11:27 AM
I think in an old DDO interview that was done by TopTenHammer it was stated that if they were to release any prestige classes that they would try to have about 8 or so to start with. This was about a year ago and with a different person in charge, so I don't know how much validity this holds anymore.

Regardless, at minimum there should be at least one prestige class that affects each base class we currently have (and trying to mathmatically find the fewest prestige classes to fill this expectation is probably not a good idea to go about this :p ).

Laith
10-17-2007, 11:30 AM
How many PrC's would be acceptable in you opinion to roll out at once at the beginning? 4? 6? 2?i'd say minimum 6 ideally (one or two options for most characters if you pick them right), but that's a paid-expansion worthy endeavor.

Odds are, they'd have to release 1 "magical" PrC along with 1 "combat" PrC in a set, and say that they are working on another set for the next release.

PrCs would also probably require some sort of "re-leveling" system... or at least a skill respec if they implemented them in-line with PnP.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 11:41 AM
I persdonally dont see why they would need a releveling system for it, Turbine just gave everybody 2 free slots per server.

That being said, I think they could easily put out the following 5 PrC's quite easily: Mystic Theurge, Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, Duelist, and Dragon Disciple with little else needing to be programmed.

You could probably add Arcane Trickster, Archmage and Thaumaturgist to that also.

Laith
10-17-2007, 11:51 AM
I persdonally dont see why they would need a releveling system for it, Turbine just gave everybody 2 free slots per server.
i think it would. honestly, most people have enough problems planning feats & enhancements with complicated prerequisites...

PrCs also require that you map out skills, class levels, and additional feats become prereqs.

If class levels cannot be undone, it becomes very easy to make irrepairable mistakes.

From a "learning curve" aspect, PrCs are quite far above the current slope... and many newbies will be attracted to them. If no re-leveling scheme is to be added, then at the very least DOCUMENTATION would become even more a concern than it is currently.

of course, i'm not really a fan of the "re-leveling" concept, but PrCs would certainly bring it up...

ccheath776
10-17-2007, 11:54 AM
As I see it, it really could not be that difficult, the spells are already in game, To make the class excel they would but need to only add in one feat. In my opinion it really could not be all that time consuming and it would send a great signal that Turbine is serious about adding at least some prestige classes.

Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?

its not coding that they are concerned about. Its balance.

Yu introduce one prestige class you have to introduce many more. Yu cant just have one.

The problem is many of the current prestige classes, due to the design of DDO, are overbalanced and would make the game too easy. Thats not a criticism of Turbine development or design.
I am saying within the parameters of DDO. Prestige classes would throw a huge wrench into the balance.

making things not be as playable as they should.

Alavatar
10-17-2007, 12:07 PM
My guess is that they have a problem with the "Add +1 to existing caster level" stuff.

My bet is they have a predetermined number of spells a character can prepare based on the level of the class.

Example:
Set: Wizard 3
Define: 3 L1 wizard spells, 2 L2 wizard spell

Set: Wizard 4
Define: 4 L1 sorcerer spells, 3 L2 sorcerer spells

Therefore, there is a problem with Wizard 3+1. They probably would have to recode the how spellcasting is defined.

Disclaimer: This is just a guess from a person who is not educated in programing.

Spectralist
10-17-2007, 12:07 PM
aside from that, once you implement one PrC, you better be dang well ready to add a bunch of others. if you don't, you've caused more harm than good.

Exactly, and we dont even have all the core classes. Plus prestige classes would likely put a lot of pressure on the devs to allow more then 3 classes on a character. I know almost all my NWN2 builds that use prestige classes have at least 4 classes.

Laith
10-17-2007, 12:12 PM
My guess is that they have a problem with the "Add +1 to existing caster level" stuff.
yes, it does change some fundamentals, but really it's just another variable in a stack of variables.

there way i see it is:
1) you pick the class(es) the "+1 to existing caster level" applys to like a feat when selecting the PrC lvl1. The list of selections includes applicable selections of your current classes. whether or not this can be changed at a later time with shards is questionable, and may be complicated by #2.
2) each time your PrC would give you "+1 to existing caster level", you get a feat (say "Cleric: +1 caster level") that stacks, similar to how Trap Sense works (it says "Taken X Times).
3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats to calculate your caster level. Then, using this modified caster level determines your sp, spell slots, etc

not completely obscene, but definately an expansion on what is probably the current system of just looking at class levels.

This is one possible implementation.

Shrazkil
10-17-2007, 12:48 PM
Would need at least 6 or so prestige classes to start.

Arcane Trickster
Dwarven Defender
Mystic theurge
Arcane Archer
Dragon Disciple
Sacred fist

Great all around start.

Alavatar
10-17-2007, 01:07 PM
yes, it does change some fundamentals, but really it's just another variable in a stack of variables.

there way i see it is:
1) you pick the class(es) the "+1 to existing caster level" applys to like a feat when selecting the PrC lvl1. The list of selections includes applicable selections of your current classes. whether or not this can be changed at a later time with shards is questionable, and may be complicated by #2.
2) each time your PrC would give you "+1 to existing caster level", you get a feat (say "Cleric: +1 caster level") that stacks, similar to how Trap Sense works (it says "Taken X Times).
3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats as well.

not completely obscene, but definately an expansion on what is probably the current system of just looking at class levels.

This is one possible implementation.

It is difficult for a feat to give a specific amount of SP because SP gained by a specific class varies as the level increases. A sorcerer going from L10 to L11 gets more SP then if they were going from L4 to L5.

It would be easier to add +1 caster level to the effects of the spells, I agree, but it seems like the number of spells available for preperation is defined specifically by the class level. A level 8 sorcerer has X L1, Y L2, Z L3 and A L4 spells, not L8 sorcerer gets +1 L4 spell and +1 L2 spell. Since each class gets different spells at different levels I assume it would be difficult to create a feat that is smart enough to determine what spells you get if you added base class + mystic theurge class = base class spell list.

My guess is just that the spells available for preperation is hardcoded into the class dependant on level which makes adding spells from a secondary class difficult.

Twerpp
10-17-2007, 01:09 PM
As I see it, it really could not be that difficult, the spells are already in game, To make the class excel they would but need to only add in one feat. In my opinion it really could not be all that time consuming and it would send a great signal that Turbine is serious about adding at least some prestige classes.

Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?


I wonder this about lots of races, sub-races, and prestige class, where the work is already done it seems.
How hard would Duergar be? We've got dark skin tones available for Dwarves, just add the special abilities. Gold/Shield Dwarves, Wood/Moon Elves, it seems like its as easy as pushing a button and changing the starting stats. Prestige classes like Dwarven Defender, Duelist, Assassin, it seems like all it takes is adding some bonuses here and there at certain levels easy as pie right? Apparently not or I'm sure we'd have some of it, since it would only bring more customers and money and keep more of us playing.

maddmatt70
10-17-2007, 01:12 PM
I would love dwarven defender, duelist, and mystic theurge. That would be beyond fun if they had those..

Taur
10-17-2007, 01:58 PM
well... the entire skill system would have to be reworked in order to properly implement most prestige classes and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 02:04 PM
well... the entire skill system would have to be reworked in order to properly implement most prestige classes and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

They could always change the skill pre reqs as DDO does not really have many skills in the game. (comparatively to what is available in P&P)

Laith
10-17-2007, 02:09 PM
It is difficult for a feat to give a specific amount of SP because SP gained by a specific class varies as the level increases...you misunderstand where the feat would be applied.

the feat wouldn't give a set amount of SP, etc... you're right, that wouldn't work. it would have to modify your level BEFORE sp, spell slots, etc were calculated.

step 3 should have read
"3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats to calculate your caster level. Then, using this modified caster level determines your sp, spell slots, etc"

Alavatar
10-17-2007, 02:14 PM
you misunderstand where the feat would be applied.

the feat wouldn't give a set amount of SP, etc... you're right, that wouldn't work. it would have to modify your level BEFORE sp, spell slots, etc were calculated.

step 3 should have read
"3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats to calculate your caster level. Then, using this modified caster level determines your sp, spell slots, etc"

I suppose.

I think it is futile for us to debate the subject, though, because neither one of us know how it is really coded (unless you have an inside source :D). That, and I am a mechanical engineer, not a software engineer. I try to avoid programming and so don't know much about what can be done.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 02:15 PM
I would love for Codog to respond but I think he has enough on his plate with TWF and ranged at the moment, but I sure would love to know.

MysticTheurge
10-17-2007, 02:16 PM
Some additional problems people haven't mentioned:

Enhancements.

The current three-class cap.

What to do with spell points. (The rules say you should have two pools, a cleric pool and a wizard pool and ne'er the twain shall meet.)

Laith
10-17-2007, 02:18 PM
I think it is futile for us to debate the subject, thoughdon't let that ruin your fun! :D

Laith
10-17-2007, 02:19 PM
What to do with spell points. (The rules say you should have two pools, a cleric pool and a wizard pool and ne'er the twain shall meet.)
we all know that's not how it works in DDO.

would PrCs give us another evasion-style shakeup? (ie multiple SP bars)

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 02:20 PM
Some additional problems people haven't mentioned:

Enhancements.

The current three-class cap.

What to do with spell points. (The rules say you should have two pools, a cleric pool and a wizard pool and ne'er the twain shall meet.)

Well that is why I would love to get some developer feedback on this. Also I believe that any feedback we can garner for this subject could assist the developers. Of ocurse they can always go their own way with it, but they would understand where some of the community stand.

Especially since this conversation has managed to stay very civil and almost cordial.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 02:21 PM
we all know that's not how it works in DDO.

would PrCs give us another evasion-style shakeup? (ie multiple SP bars)

It could, but then that could be part of the fun....

MysticTheurge
10-17-2007, 02:23 PM
we all know that's not how it works in DDO.

would PrCs give us another evasion-style shakeup? (ie multiple SP bars)

It's not a huge issue under the current system. I mean I'm not super happy that taking a level of paladin on your cleric 13 gets you more SPs than another level of cleric, but it's not the end of the world.

It would be a significantly bigger deal on a Mystic Theurge.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 02:24 PM
It's not a huge issue under the current system. I mean I'm not super happy that taking a level of paladin on your cleric 13 gets you more SPs than another level of cleric, but it's not the end of the world.

It would be a significantly bigger deal on a Mystic Theurge.

to the tune of hundreds (maybe almost a thousand) spell points.

Taur
10-17-2007, 02:33 PM
They could always change the skill pre reqs as DDO does not really have many skills in the game. (comparatively to what is available in P&P)

or they could just spend the effort and bring the skill in line with PnP. I think that would actually make a lot of people happier with the game.

ErgonomicCat
10-17-2007, 03:11 PM
I wonder this about lots of races, sub-races, and prestige class, where the work is already done it seems.
How hard would Duergar be? We've got dark skin tones available for Dwarves, just add the special abilities. Gold/Shield Dwarves, Wood/Moon Elves, it seems like its as easy as pushing a button and changing the starting stats. Prestige classes like Dwarven Defender, Duelist, Assassin, it seems like all it takes is adding some bonuses here and there at certain levels easy as pie right? Apparently not or I'm sure we'd have some of it, since it would only bring more customers and money and keep more of us playing.

Are drow just elves with dark skin? I haven't played one, so I don't know if they have different animations and such like.

I'd bet that a lot of the hold up is with development and testing, not the actual "push the button."

They could add wood elves that were just elves with different starting stats, but that's not that exciting, if they have the same enhancements, animations, etc.

Also, it would require updating the RR code to add Wood Elves - I don't know how hard that is.

The problem is that "how hard can it be" is a really loaded question from a programmer's pov.

It's sort of like saying "If you can hit a golfball 350 yards, why can't you just hit it 360 yards? It's only 10 yards farther...."

MysticTheurge
10-17-2007, 03:14 PM
They could add wood elves that were just elves with different starting stats, but that's not that exciting, if they have the same enhancements, animations, etc.

In Eberron we like to "Just Say No" to "subraces" that have no real differences except for their starting stats.

An elf is an elf is an elf, so to speak.

Different people maintain this standard to differing degrees, but for the most part Eberron doesn't have "Sun elves" and "Wood Elves" and "Moon Elves" and "Shield Dwarves" and "Gold Dwarves" and "Strongheart Halflings" and "Rock Gnomes" so on. We just have elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 03:17 PM
In Eberron we like to "Just Say No" to "subraces" that have no real differences except for their starting stats.

An elf is an elf is an elf, so to speak.

Different people maintain this standard to differing degrees, but for the most part Eberron doesn't have "Sun elves" and "Wood Elves" and "Moon Elves" and "Shield Dwarves" and "Gold Dwarves" and "Strongheart Halflings" and "Rock Gnomes" so on. We just have elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes.

MT is a gnome. :eek: :D

Drider
10-17-2007, 03:23 PM
In Eberron we like to "Just Say No" to "subraces" that have no real differences except for their starting stats.

An elf is an elf is an elf, so to speak.

Different people maintain this standard to differing degrees, but for the most part Eberron doesn't have "Sun elves" and "Wood Elves" and "Moon Elves" and "Shield Dwarves" and "Gold Dwarves" and "Strongheart Halflings" and "Rock Gnomes" so on. We just have elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes.


but but but.. I wanna be a Svirfnebli. :(



As for prestige classes. I thought it looked like they were going to incorporate them somewhat into the Enhancement system. However we haven't had any added since the Bard ones.

I think if they added prestige classes though, they should ditch the enhancement system. I'm still not a huge fan of it.

MysticTheurge
10-17-2007, 03:29 PM
MT is a gnome. :eek: :D

This is true.

Twerpp
10-17-2007, 04:12 PM
In Eberron we like to "Just Say No" to "subraces" that have no real differences except for their starting stats.

An elf is an elf is an elf, so to speak.

Different people maintain this standard to differing degrees, but for the most part Eberron doesn't have "Sun elves" and "Wood Elves" and "Moon Elves" and "Shield Dwarves" and "Gold Dwarves" and "Strongheart Halflings" and "Rock Gnomes" so on. We just have elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes.
Well we dont have Gnomes in this Eberron. Actually the list of dont haves is pretty big thats why we post threads like this :)

Riggs
10-17-2007, 05:21 PM
Mystic Theurge would be probably be over powered in DDO. The things thay you lose from the 2 classes are largly irrelevant in DDO. Extra metamagic feats are nice, but losing the free crafting feats is a total non-issue atm, and losing things like turn undead or other non-casting abilities is really not a big deal.

but being able to cast Stoneskin and Deathward and Heal/cure AND Firewall AND Raise dead, AND Blade barrier....

You would lose the top tier of spells, but once the level cap is raised would still get level 7 spells for both classes. And Pk could stand in not bad for Fod.
By level 20 you would still be able to cast level 9 spells in both cleric and wizard lists (sorcs are 1 level behind so would lose the top spells).

It would be cool to play sure....

MysticTheurge
10-17-2007, 05:25 PM
but being able to cast Stoneskin and Deathward and Heal/cure AND Firewall AND Raise dead, AND Blade barrier....

But not Finger of Death, Destruction, Greater Teleport, Ressurection or Greater Restoration.

The main thing Mystic Theurges give up is their highest level of spells. You're always three levels worth of spells behind everyone else.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 05:27 PM
Mystic Theurge would be probably be over powered in DDO. The things thay you lose from the 2 classes are largly irrelevant in DDO. Extra metamagic feats are nice, but losing the free crafting feats is a total non-issue atm, and losing things like turn undead or other non-casting abilities is really not a big deal.

but being able to cast Stoneskin and Deathward and Heal/cure AND Firewall AND Raise dead, AND Blade barrier....

You would lose the top tier of spells, but once the level cap is raised would still get level 7 spells for both classes. And Pk could stand in not bad for Fod.
By level 20 you would still be able to cast level 9 spells in both cleric and wizard lists (sorcs are 1 level behind so would lose the top spells).

It would be cool to play sure....

Yes with a wizard cleric combo you could cast level 9 spells, at level 15 (proficiency) so you would lose 5 to all of your casts, there are natural drawbacks of the class. It is not all good things, but there is more versatility. There are many drawbacks too though.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 05:29 PM
But not Finger of Death, Destruction, Greater Teleport, Ressurection or Greater Restoration.

The main thing Mystic Theurges give up is their highest level of spells. You're always three levels worth of spells behind everyone else.

Well you could cast Fod, and Destruction and the like once you hit level 16 minimum (assuming you went cleric/wizard which gets you the most advancement) while all the other clerics and wizards are casting wish, miracle and mass heal.

jjflanigan
10-17-2007, 05:40 PM
Well from what I've seen on the forums, all you need to do to code MysticTheurge is to program it with the data out of the d20srd and set it to sporadically make smart-alecky comments intermixed with facts from the SRD.

:)

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 05:42 PM
Well from what I've seen on the forums, all you need to do to code MysticTheurge is to program it with the data out of the d20srd and set it to sporadically make smart-alecky comments intermixed with facts from the SRD.

:)

and to make fun of Asp mercilessly (among others) :eek: :D

Kalanth
10-17-2007, 05:44 PM
...Arcane Archer...

I thought about this for a while, and I would say that this one is anything but "simple to program." You have to design a system that is capabale of placing any area of effect spell into an arrow, one at a time (until fired) that the player can hold onto until their next shot. That is a whole lot of spells from Hypnotic Pattern and Hypnotism to Chain Lightning and Cloudkill.

In addition you need to program arrows that will follow a target around a corner if needed. That seeker arrow can be a nice tool when used. The death arrow is an easy one, honestly, as slayer arrows are there already and the death arrow is a form of the slayer arrow basically.

Then each Prestige class will need it's own enhancement trees (I would hope that certain enhancements would not be added to the prerequisits). Sure, the class based implementation is easy overall, but this is anything but a simple task to do.

I want my PrC's more than anything else, but I realize that they are not likely to happen soon, if ever.

MysticTheurge
10-17-2007, 05:46 PM
Well from what I've seen on the forums, all you need to do to code MysticTheurge is to program it with the data out of the d20srd and set it to sporadically make smart-alecky comments intermixed with facts from the SRD.

:)

Hey! This is totally unfair!

I reference other sources too sometimes.

:D

Bunzy
10-17-2007, 07:36 PM
but but but.. I wanna be a Svirfnebli. :(
Is that even a real word? Has anyone noticed how the thread turned from 'how hard would it be to code PrC's?' to 'all the reasons why we shouldn't and/or can't code PrC's'?

GeneralDiomedes
10-17-2007, 08:29 PM
I persdonally dont see why they would need a releveling system for it, Turbine just gave everybody 2 free slots per server.

That being said, I think they could easily put out the following 5 PrC's quite easily: Mystic Theurge, Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, Duelist, and Dragon Disciple with little else needing to be programmed.

You could probably add Arcane Trickster, Archmage and Thaumaturgist to that also.

I think their special abilities would involve more than a 'little' programming.

Borror0
10-17-2007, 09:08 PM
Hey! This is totally unfair!

I reference other sources too sometimes.

:D

You should start to reference the wiki...:rolleyes:

Drider
10-17-2007, 09:26 PM
Is that even a real word? Has anyone noticed how the thread turned from 'how hard would it be to code PrC's?' to 'all the reasons why we shouldn't and/or can't code PrC's'?


Svirfnebli are deep gnomes. :p

Wizzly_Bear
10-18-2007, 12:30 AM
first, i will preface by saying that prc are already in the game and im cheesed about it. the same creatures who have infinite sps, 10x hps, can cast while stoned, et cetera, they have prcs. assassins, blackguards, remember those? seen some others to, but dont remember which, i try to ignore it now.

now....i think some are confused as to what mt entails.

*base mt (with classes currently in game) is 3 wiz/3cleric. so, you suck for your mid levels (you know, the "hard ones")
*caster level is also 3 lower. thats 3 less on sp checks, and 3x less on durations.
*also, at lvl 20, you cannot cast both classes' 9th lvl spells. 10mt7/7cleric/3wiz gives you 9th lvl cleric spells (only 1/day though(1 or 2 prepped in ddo)) and only 7th lvl wiz spells. you could swap them, or go for 8th in both, but not 9th in both. you also face...

*arcane spell failure if wearing your armor
*squishy hps (wizs and mts both have d4s)
*negligible turning ability as compared to a pure cleric(though, in ddo you could just use this for dvs)
*fewer bonus feats than pure wiz
***AAAAAND you have to worry about keeping two stats high to be of any use.
*also, many other smaller things such as having to carry around TWO sets of spell components in our already cluttered pack space.

mts are like caster "batman" builds. they can do most everything, but they dont excel at any of it. they are primarily a utilitarian caster.

all this said though, i eagerly await the day i can play a mt. ive always wanted to. when i joined the game i wanted to make my handle something mt related, but MysticTheurge was here first :p :(

ooh, and finally, dont forget about the screwjob epic mts received. basically ruined playing an mt after 20th lvl.
dm "you have earned enough to level to 21"
mt "ummm....do i HAVE to level???"
i would also very much like to see (forgot the name sorry) prc that was arcane w/ fighting progression that had class abilities of lowering asf.

Cowdenicus
10-18-2007, 03:48 PM
first, i will preface by saying that prc are already in the game and im cheesed about it. the same creatures who have infinite sps, 10x hps, can cast while stoned, et cetera, they have prcs. assassins, blackguards, remember those? seen some others to, but dont remember which, i try to ignore it now.

now....i think some are confused as to what mt entails.

*base mt (with classes currently in game) is 3 wiz/3cleric. so, you suck for your mid levels (you know, the "hard ones")
*caster level is also 3 lower. thats 3 less on sp checks, and 3x less on durations.
*also, at lvl 20, you cannot cast both classes' 9th lvl spells. 10mt7/7cleric/3wiz gives you 9th lvl cleric spells (only 1/day though(1 or 2 prepped in ddo)) and only 7th lvl wiz spells. you could swap them, or go for 8th in both, but not 9th in both. you also face...

*arcane spell failure if wearing your armor
*squishy hps (wizs and mts both have d4s)
*negligible turning ability as compared to a pure cleric(though, in ddo you could just use this for dvs)
*fewer bonus feats than pure wiz
***AAAAAND you have to worry about keeping two stats high to be of any use.
*also, many other smaller things such as having to carry around TWO sets of spell components in our already cluttered pack space.

mts are like caster "batman" builds. they can do most everything, but they dont excel at any of it. they are primarily a utilitarian caster.

all this said though, i eagerly await the day i can play a mt. ive always wanted to. when i joined the game i wanted to make my handle something mt related, but MysticTheurge was here first :p :(

ooh, and finally, dont forget about the screwjob epic mts received. basically ruined playing an mt after 20th lvl.
dm "you have earned enough to level to 21"
mt "ummm....do i HAVE to level???"
i would also very much like to see (forgot the name sorry) prc that was arcane w/ fighting progression that had class abilities of lowering asf.

Eldritch Knight???

MysticTheurge
10-18-2007, 03:51 PM
Eldritch Knight???

I think he means Spellsword (from Complete Warrior), if I'm remembering what that PrC does.

jaitee
10-18-2007, 03:53 PM
whats a prestige class? o.O

Cowdenicus
10-18-2007, 03:54 PM
whats a prestige class? o.O

That one thing DDO2 might have..... :(

MysticTheurge
10-18-2007, 03:55 PM
whats a prestige class? o.O

From Wikipedia:


Prestige classes are a different form of multiclassing introduced in 3rd edition. To attain a specific prestige class, a character must first meet a number of prerequisites, such as a number of levels in a specific class or certain feats. Prestige classes offer a focus on different abilities that may be difficult to attain otherwise; for example, the 3rd edition version of the Assassin prestige class grants minor magical powers, more backstabbing damage, and better usage of poison.

While not calling them prestige classes, some 1st edition classes had a similar idea, such as the version of the Bard described in the Player's Handbook or the Thief-Acrobat described in Unearthed Arcana. Characters who met prerequisites and had progressed to a certain level could change into the new class.

They've also got a nice list of PrCs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes) though the one on the wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc) has more descriptions.

Cowdenicus
10-18-2007, 04:00 PM
From Wikipedia:



They've also got a nice list of PrCs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes) though the one on the wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc) has more descriptions.

That list is sick.

Wizzly_Bear
10-18-2007, 06:18 PM
Eldritch Knight???

no. that one has full attack progression, nearly full casting progression (-1 level), but not lowered asf built into class. also has only a d6 for hps i believe.


I think he means Spellsword (from Complete Warrior), if I'm remembering what that PrC does.

no, not that one either.

ill find it and let yall know. but iirc, it had d8 hps, half casting progression, full atack progression, and when prc levels maxed, had no asf in fp.

MysticTheurge
10-18-2007, 07:38 PM
no, not that one either.

ill find it and let yall know. but iirc, it had d8 hps, half casting progression, full atack progression, and when prc levels maxed, had no asf in fp.

Uh, that's spellsword (though you can only get regular FP down to 5% asf).

Complete Warrior, p. 80. ;)

Wizzly_Bear
10-19-2007, 12:15 AM
Uh, that's spellsword (though you can only get regular FP down to 5% asf).

Complete Warrior, p. 80. ;)

i suppose so. the name just doesnt click though. however, been years since ive seen it so i bet youre right.

Elvish_Ranger
10-19-2007, 12:54 AM
The class arcane archer is too overpowered for ddo, say you take your ranger to lvl6 then even with cap at 20 that is 14lvls arcane archer
so here is your basic bow

+1 longbow becomes a
+7 longbow hmmmm lets see a uber bow

+1 holyburst of greater evil outsider bane is now a +7 holyburst of greater evil outsider bane add manyshot and then imbue the arrows with mass hold monster

now every hit is a crit on a manyshot


and multiple enemies hit there is one way arcane to powerful

second problem you enter a room with 20 mobs running towards you the arcane archer loads arrows imbued with say fireball is wearin a superiour combustion 7 item and potency 7 item as well as took emp. and maxemize fires his arrows in manyshot, in 20 seconds how many dbfs were cast and how many mobs are still alive



prc at this point just make the game who can kill everyquest solo now

take 6 arcane archers into any quest and you have beta over again no damage to you but everything else dead...............................

Cowdenicus
10-19-2007, 04:39 AM
The class arcane archer is too overpowered for ddo, say you take your ranger to lvl6 then even with cap at 20 that is 14lvls arcane archer
so here is your basic bow

+1 longbow becomes a
+7 longbow hmmmm lets see a uber bow

+1 holyburst of greater evil outsider bane is now a +7 holyburst of greater evil outsider bane add manyshot and then imbue the arrows with mass hold monster

now every hit is a crit on a manyshot


and multiple enemies hit there is one way arcane to powerful

second problem you enter a room with 20 mobs running towards you the arcane archer loads arrows imbued with say fireball is wearin a superiour combustion 7 item and potency 7 item as well as took emp. and maxemize fires his arrows in manyshot, in 20 seconds how many dbfs were cast and how many mobs are still alive



prc at this point just make the game who can kill everyquest solo now

take 6 arcane archers into any quest and you have beta over again no damage to you but everything else dead...............................

Good thing you can only take 10 levels of Arcane Archer before level 20 then huh. Not to mention the one level of wizard or sorc. That would enable one to cast only 1st level spells into a arrow.

Now a 5 ranger 5 wizard 10 arcane archer might be intresting.

*Edit* Levels of Arcane Archer do not progress your spell casting abilities (thats where the balance is.)

Kaldais
10-19-2007, 01:18 PM
with existing programming code, Eldritch knight will be very easy to add.

Prereq. one of Feat: Martial Weapon
Prereq. one of Level 5 Wizard, or Level 6 Sorc. or Level 7 Bard.

Level 1:
HP 6
BAB +1
bonus feat (fighter class)

Level 2 - 10:
HP 6
BAB +1
+1 Arcane Spell level
Spell progression = Highest arcane class + 1
SP = SP for Highest arcane class + 1

AEschyl
10-19-2007, 02:52 PM
with existing programming code, Eldritch knight will be very easy to add.

Prereq. one of Feat: Martial Weapon
Prereq. one of Level 5 Wizard, or Level 6 Sorc. or Level 7 Bard.

Level 1:
HP 6
BAB +1
bonus feat (fighter class)

Level 2 - 10:
HP 6
BAB +1
+1 Arcane Spell level
Spell progression = Highest arcane class + 1
SP = SP for Highest arcane class + 1
what the... i read this thread the other day and didnt post anything.. just now i thought "you know, eldritch knight would be easy to add" so i came to this thread to post that... clicked on the "go to latest post" button.. and read that...

damn you! lol

Kaldais
10-19-2007, 03:18 PM
what the... i read this thread the other day and didnt post anything.. just now i thought "you know, eldritch knight would be easy to add" so i came to this thread to post that... clicked on the "go to latest post" button.. and read that...

damn you! lol

I ninja-ed your idea, you gotta be quick.

Invalid_86
10-19-2007, 07:54 PM
Of course in order to introduce the Arcane Archer ranged combat needs to be fixed. That would push that class back a bit.

I know it's not the same as a Mystic Theurge but it would be nice just to have the humble Practiced Spellcaster feat.

GlassCannon
10-20-2007, 03:23 AM
I'd like the server to stop "losing my arrows" and "losing my bolts" after I fire them and reload. Instead of a Synch I think a Clientside packet should be sent, then the server implements said packet immediately instead of having the server verify that you fired when you were able(at latency), and having a synch error(literally 33% of the time or more in combat).

The only time I don't "lose more than half my shots(and thus tons of secondary DPS)" is when I turn on Autoattack and spam my Attack button to shoot, and even THEN I lose at least 1 in 10 arrows/bolts.

I'd also like you(devs) to bring back that nifty effect in MOD 3 where if you crit on a ranged touch you get a triple-hit.

Cowdenicus
10-20-2007, 07:34 AM
I'd like the server to stop "losing my arrows" and "losing my bolts" after I fire them and reload. Instead of a Synch I think a Clientside packet should be sent, then the server implements said packet immediately instead of having the server verify that you fired when you were able(at latency), and having a synch error(literally 33% of the time or more in combat).

The only time I don't "lose more than half my shots(and thus tons of secondary DPS)" is when I turn on Autoattack and spam my Attack button to shoot, and even THEN I lose at least 1 in 10 arrows/bolts.

I'd also like you(devs) to bring back that nifty effect in MOD 3 where if you crit on a ranged touch you get a triple-hit.

Look at Codog's thread.

Suzaku
10-21-2007, 01:30 PM
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP MENTIONING ARCANE ARCHER AS A PRESTIGE CLASS! It's a terrible prestige class and should be thrown away in favor of peerless archer and or Order of the Bow. Don't have the developers waste a PrC slot arcane archer please!!!

Spectralist
10-21-2007, 02:00 PM
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP MENTIONING ARCANE ARCHER AS A PRESTIGE CLASS! It's a terrible prestige class and should be thrown away in favor of peerless archer and or Order of the Bow. Don't have the developers waste a PrC slot arcane archer please!!!

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1398535&postcount=36

We're getting something like Arcane Archers in the form of enhancements :D

Invalid_86
10-21-2007, 02:12 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1398535&postcount=36

We're getting something like Arcane Archers in the form of enhancements :D

Weird. Assuming that they can get a fix on ranged combat to make Arcane Archer work right why would it be a Ranger based class? It requires the ability to cast arcane spells.

MysticTheurge
10-21-2007, 02:17 PM
Weird. Assuming that they can get a fix on ranged combat to make Arcane Archer work right why would it be a Ranger based class? It requires the ability to cast arcane spells.

Cause it's an archer prestige class and rangers are the archers of DDO.

And cause there are other better prestige classes to be converted into enhancements for Wizards and Sorcerers.

Invalid_86
10-21-2007, 02:20 PM
Cause it's an archer prestige class and rangers are the archers of DDO.

And cause there are other better prestige classes to be converted into enhancements for Wizards and Sorcerers.

Bah. Here I went and assumed the Arcane Archer would be like the D&D prestige class!

MysticTheurge
10-21-2007, 02:25 PM
Bah. Here I went and assumed the Arcane Archer would be like the D&D prestige class!

The enhancements seem to be, at best, "based on" the prestige classes of the same name.

Suzaku
10-21-2007, 02:27 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1398535&postcount=36

We're getting something like Arcane Archers in the form of enhancements :D

NNNOOOOOO ; ; Hopefully they're add peerless archer and/or order of the bow