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SableShadow
10-14-2007, 08:19 PM
Important note: No longer keeping this particular thread updated, as it has been uploaded to the Compendium. Future updates will appear there. Please see the Compendium (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Notes_from_a_Dancing_Rogue) entry.

"My father was a surface elf,
My mother lived 'neath the wave.
My father 'twas a' sinking fast,
My mother, she did save.

The love that grew was more than self,
Though many a storm 'twould brave.
They lived and danced and then, at last,
Gave birth to a rhyming knave."

- Brenna Wavekin, the Dancing Rogue



Notes from a Dancing Rogue



Preface
This is a guide to my personal philosophies to playing a rogue. As such, it will never be complete; I’ve been playing Brenna since release, and I’m still finding out new and interesting things to do with the class. She and I have evolved over time from casual to power gamer and back again more than once and there are still many, many things I haven’t found the time to experiment with or observe. This is what we know now, but who knows what the future holds?

There are many, many ways to build and play a rogue, and I cannot pretend to be an expert in all of them; I’m adding my notes on the play styles/tricks I know, and hoping that those with more detailed experience in particular play styles chime in on this thread. These are Brenna’s first hand experiences and my observations of other (sometimes better, sometimes not) rogue players.

The Rogue is a very interesting class: jack of all trades, masters of some.

“The full quote is, 'Jack of all Trades, Master of None, oft times better than a Master of One'. Picking just one task in which to excel is self-limiting. The class was designed to be a Swiss Army Knife with an 18" double-bladed dagger attachment. Play that way." – Brenna Wavekin

The class itself screams versatility; that very versatility makes them very demanding, yet rewarding to play. I’ve run Brenna for rather a while now, respec’ing her feats several times since that option became available, and trying a good cross section of available enhancements, both before and after Academy Training came out. I like to think I’ve got a good feel for the options available to the class.

“I can’t see being a casual rogue; I started as such, but the class is too demanding and does not lend itself well to the casual player. Welcome to the Edge!” – Brenna Wavekin

Audience
In this posting, I’m writing primarily for those players with a rogue icon in front of their names, and with a more than passing familiarity with Dungeons and Dragons Online. This is not a guide for the new player, though picking a build from the Rogue’s forums and then using this guide to fine tune build, gear, and strategy will (I hope) be helpful.

We rogue players rarely have the opportunity to see others of our class in action; groups tend to have a dislike for the class, regarding them as a necessary evil, so we usually operate without observing our own kind, leaving us without that necessary feedback that lets us know how we stack up against others of the class, borrow tricks, and improve. We all tend to regard ourselves as the best in the class, likely because we rarely get to see each other in action; it is on that note that I hope my hubris in attempting to post a general guide on the most complex, interesting, and misunderstood class in the game is forgiven.

I have a tendency to be pedantic (*very* pedantic), so I'd like to note some of the other, quicker to read rogue's guides out there:

Loccke's Rogue Guide (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128096) by GuitarHero

And, of course, the essential works on the subject of rogue skills:
Is my <insert rogue skill> high enough? by cforce
Is my <insert rogue skill> high enough? *New* by Impaqt
Update: Impaqt passed the torch to me.
Read the updated Is my <insert rogue skill> high enough? Third Edition (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173623)thread.


Specific rogue builds are linked at the bottom of the post.


Philosophy
As a rogue, my job is not to locate and disable traps. As a rogue, my job is to get the party through a quest as efficiently as possible. Most of the time, this means killing monsters, so having a way to kill whatever monsters I’m questing against is paramount. If there are traps and locks in the quest, I’m expected to be able to handle them, as these are core talents of the class, but if the party chooses to run through or ignore them, then I do the same. If I keep up my magical devices training, I can serve as an emergency healer, a rezzer, and a general utility gadget mage. Finally, because of the pool of skills at my disposal, I present the group with a variety of tactical options that may allow them to bypass combat altogether.


“What the author means, is, a rogue kills monsters, bypasses defenses, uses wands/scrolls, and other stuff….pretty much in that order.” – Brenna Wavekin


Outline


I) The Kinds of Rogue


a. The Classic Rogue


b. The Strong Rogue
c. The Smart Rogue
d. The Ranged Rogue
e. The Multiclassed Rogue
II) Key Design Decisions


a. “How will I do my damage?”




i. Overdamage and the Damage Curve


ii. Some Specific Damage Recommendations
iii. Tactics
iv. The Barbarian Test
b. “How will I stay alive?”


i. Saving Throws


ii. Armor Class
iii. Hit Points
iv. Healing
c. “How will I handle traps/locks?”

d. “What skills do I want to max, and why?”


i. Use Magical Devices


ii. Jump
iii. Hide And Move Silently
iv. Diplomacy
v. Bluff
vi. Balance
vii. Tumble
viii. Haggle
e. “What feats do I really want, and why?”


i. Two Weapon Fighting – Pros and Cons


ii. Precision
iii. Improved Critical
iv. The Spring Attack Line
v. Combat Expertise and Company
vi. Power Attack
vii. Skill Focus/Skill Feats
viii. Force of Personality
ix. Ranged Feats
III) Choice Gear


a. General


b. Weapons
c. Armor
d. Utility
IV) Stealth


a. Being the Scout


b. Being the Assassin
c. Being the Master Thief
d. Where to Practice Stealth
V) Rogue Builds (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1390160)

VI) Greensteel & Rogue: Specialty (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1390162)



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I) The Kinds of Rogues

First, let’s talk about the general types of rogue’s out there. This is by no means a selection of builds, just a thumbnail sketch of characteristics, strengths, and weaknesses. Peak numbers are quite important in DDO, as much of the game is either 'hit' or 'miss', 'disable' or 'fail disable', 'unlock' or 'fail to unlock'...so read between the lines and plan accordingly. However, I'm a big believer that rogues, more than any other class except perhaps monks, can be very easily min/maxed to death...drop stats to their racial min with caution, know what you're losing and what you seek to gain by doing so.

“Players often get wrapped up in the strength vs dexterity/Finesse debate. Strength-based gives you better damage at low levels, saves you a feat, makes you less gear dependent, and lets you access some very nice weapons. Dexterity/Finesse-based saves you points for other stats, applies to more skills that strength, pumps your reflex save, and gets you a better AC. In the endgame, it's the player and the gear you choose to seek out that will make or break your rogue.” – Brenna Wavekin



a) The Classic Rogue
Your classic rogue is a staple of fiction and film: high dexterity, good intelligence, and (often) good charisma. This is the Gray Mouser. Dex starting at 16+, int at 14+, cha at 14+. Weapon finesse for melee, often with two weapon fighting, this rogue takes some time to develop for combat, as the damage in the build comes from sneak attack levels rather than stats. Your attack bonus, however, is very dependent on your dexterity, and your stat bonuses with level go into your dex.



b) The Strong Rogue
This rogue sacrifices a little dex, and possibly charisma, and puts it into strength and/or con. This is Fafhrd. Starting with 16+ strength, dex at 14+, this rogue levels easier than a dex based rogue, as there is plenty of damage at the lower levels before your sneak attack fully develops and you can use the feat a dex based rogue puts into weapon finesse for something else. Your reflex saves are a little lower, and your open locks, stealth, and balance skills will suffer a little, but you’ll have a superior jump.



c) The Smart Rogue
This rogue sacrifices some dex and strength for brains. This is McGyver. Starting with a 16+ int, 14+ dex or str, this rogue isn’t the best combatant coming out of the gate, and will evolve into a damage dealer slower than either the Classic or Strong varieties since you’ll need both class levels, feats, and enhancements into combat related rather than trap/lock/utility related areas to compensate for the lower attack bonus. You have many, many skill points, and can max out many different areas. In non-trap related skills, your peaks will be lower, but you’ll have a lot of breadth.



d) The Ranged Rogue
This is a sub-type of the other three rogues above, which I consider to be melee types. Ranged combat as a specialty can work, but only if you spend feats for it; the rate of fire in DDOs ranged attacks is inferior to that of melee, but can be compensated for through feats, enhancements, and multiclassing. While I strongly recommend every rogue carry some kind of ranged weapon, take a look for specific build guides before attempting to go purely or even primarily ranged.



e) The Multiclassed Rogue
Personally, I recommend multiclassing a rogue as you’d multiclass a caster: with caution. A single level of just about anything can give you huge benefits; more than that and you start to cut into special abilities, enhancements, and sneak attack damage. Don’t get me wrong, a couple levels of fighter or ranger can be very nice for the feats and attack bonus; just saying I’ve done exactly that before, and while it’s effective I’ve found staying close to full rogue is very, very nice.

There are a couple situations in which I would consider more than a single level of another class into your rogue: raising your basic attack bonus and, occasionally, adding key feats for your build. A repeater rogue, for example, is much easier to build if you take 2 levels of fighter for the extra feats, and any rogue can benefit from a higher BAB score (see the section on attack bonus under “How will I do damage?” below). There are plenty of builds out there that do more than splash a level in another class, and they’re good builds. However, they don’t do it for *just* one characteristic, they do it after a careful analysis of the build as a whole, and carefully map the level progression to get just the right feats and abilities at just the right times. Typically, they are designed to target the current version of the game (current gear, quests, and level cap). I wouldn’t do this haphazardly, however, or on a whim; plan your build thoroughly if you plan on adding more than a splash.

The game has changed and continues to change; the more fine tuning you do with your class selections, the more risk you incur that a future change will have a negative impact.

I experienced this with Xanna, who began as an 8/2 rogue/fighter, then a 10/2, then finally a 12/2. In the original incarnation, I found that I somewhat missed Improved Evasion but really liked the extra feats and higher BAB; in the final version, I found that I greatly missed Crippling Strike and Subtle Backstabber IV, really wasn’t that thrilled by the extra feats, and didn’t need the higher BAB. Was she combat effective? Yes, very much so. Would she have been even better if I’d not added the 2nd level of fighter? And less impacted by future game changes? No question in my mind. There are even times I regret the level of bard on Brenna, and would have swapped it out for a straight rogue level on more than one occasion if the option had presented itself.



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II) Key Design Decisions
These decisions will mark your path through the levels of the class, and so deserve to be repeated.

- “How will I do my damage?”
- “How will I stay alive?”
- “How will I handle traps/locks?”
- “What skills do I want to max, and why?”
- “What feats do I really want, and why?”




a) “How will I do my damage?”

DDO is a damage game. There are several quests in which you can bypass fights, but by and large a rogue that can’t rank in the damage department is not desired in groups, and will not push quests forward. Damage per second (dps) is a function of number of hits per weapon cycle over time, which in turn is a function of your to-hit, your number of attacks, and how often you get agro.

“Uh, oh, here comes the math…well, geometry. Whatever.” – Brenna Wavekin


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i) Overdamage and the Damage Curve

Before we get into specifics, there are two concepts that are vital for a rogue to understand; I call them Overdamage and the Damage Curve, both of which are related to sneak attack damage. Overdamage is the amount of damage you’re doing to the monster above that of other individual members of party.

Rogue’s only get their sneak attack bonus when they don’t have the monster’s agro…there are a couple exceptions we’ll get into later, usually relating to specific weapon or skill effects, but by and large this is true. So, if you do too much damage in proportion to the other party members attacking the same monster, you get agro, and lose your sneak attack damage. This cycle results in what I refer to as the Damage Curve.

By way of illustration, think of a series of saw teeth or peaks and valleys; rogue’s do great damage with their sneak attack until they do enough to get agro at their peak, then their damage plummets into a valley. When they shed agro, they go back to doing great damage again, do enough to get agro again, and so on. That’s the Damage Curve. The height of the curve is the amount of Overdamage a rogue can do to a monster before getting agro; the bottom of the curve is the amount of damage the rogue can do without sneak attack damage.

An understanding of these concepts now gives me a means to evaluate fighting strategies over time, not just ‘I seem to do good damage’ or ‘My max crit was xxx’. Precision fighters like to flatten the curve (low Overdamage), so there are fewer peaks and valleys, making the damage more consistent because it accumulates more slowly, but evenly because of the higher attack bonus (fewer streaks of hits or misses). Strength based and Greater Bane fighters push the bottom of the curve higher; yes they have fewer peaks (since they tend to keep agro longer once they get it), but their valleys are not as deep (they are not as heavily dependent on sneak damage). Two weapon fighters tend to have more peaks *and* more valleys if they aren’t careful, which goes a long way to explain why some people swear by twf and some absolutely hate it. Single weapon fighters, like precision fighters, tend to have a flatter Damage Curve. You end up with a variety of rogues, each with a different combat style, who in fact do pretty much the same dps (damage per second, damage over time). Their kill counts will be different, perhaps, but if you do the math the actual amount of damage output can be largely the same.

With the background in Overdamage and the Damage Curve, you now know a few things about the rest of your build and combat style. If you like to do crunch damage, and then keep fighting with the rest of the pack, a strength based style might suite you. If want to keep to a predictable, even pattern, Precision and/or Single Weapon may be the way to go. If you have a lot of practice, and decent stats/gear for it, two weapon fighting on a dex based build may be your cup of tea.

Whatever choice you want, just keep in mind the concepts of Overdamage and the Damage Curve, because they will determine your most effective play style. A strength based, two weapon fighting rogue will be better at vaulting a line of monsters and getting that caster in the back: big peak damage, followed by a flat valley of good damage to finish off the caster. On the other hand, the single weapon, precision fighter will need much less attention fighting on the line: gets agro less often while putting out his damage, gives the party a nice, smooth damage output for low maintenance.


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ii) Some Specific Damage Recommendations
Ok, we’ve hit up the theory, now for some specifics. Having a decent attack bonus must be your first priority when building your rogue for damage. One of the things to keep strongly in mind is the 3/4 basic attack bonus, and it’s comparison to the martial 1-to-1 basic attack bonus. Monsters appear to have had their armor class balanced against the martial BAB, so with a 3/4 BAB a rogue has to keep a careful eye his to-hit, and keep a good handle not only on how often he deals damage, but also how often he misses.

See The Definitive Attack Bonus Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=154366) by Impaqt for all the ways to get your to hit up.


***
NOTE: This does NOT mean the class can't hit the broadside of a barn. My entire thrust in this section is to emphasize that the damage of the class comes from sneak attack; to make it function properly, you want to connect and connect often enough to avoid hit and miss streaks. Pay attention to the attack bonus *first* and the extra damage of the weapons *second* . Too many folks get excited about using +1 Flaming <blah> of Pure Good when their actual DPS would go up with a plain ol' +5 weapon.
***


With that in mind, I recommend taking an attack bonus stat high, meaning either dex (plus the weapon finesse feat) or strength at 16+ and put all your level up stats into it. If you start lower than that, say to up your int or boost con/cha, I’d take a hard look at other ways to boost your attack bonus...flanking bonus enhancements, sneak attack enhancements, weapons with high Backstabbing bonuses, specific racial weapon bonuses, the Precision feat (yes, with Precision you will be halving your base weapon and sneak attack damage, but you can probably achieve an ‘ok’ dps by virtue of hitting more often and your ability to influence the Damage Curve)…because 7d6 of sneak damage at lvl 13 rogue means exactly jack if you can’t connect with it.

Consider: at level 11, a character with all rogue levels will have a base attack bonus of +8, while one with all levels in a martial class will have a base attack bonus of +11. Toss in a combat stat of perhaps 28 for both (a fairly conservative number), and you end up with the rogue having an attack bonus of +17 against the martial +20. Now equip them. If the martial character is hitting on a 10 or more at +21, the rogue will need a 13…if the fighter needs a 15 to connect against highly armored foes, the rogue will need a 18. It's that last case that's the important one; at the higher ACs, small shifts in attack bonus make a big difference. In the first example, the fighter is first hitting 1 time out of 2 swings, with the rogue hitting roughly 1 in 3; in the second example (a 5 point shift in AC), the fighter has gone from 50% hits to 25% hits...and lost 1/2 of his dps. The rogue went from 33% to 10% with the same change...and lost more than 2/3 of his dps.

The upshot is, fighter types can get away with using low plus, high damage or special effects weapons under many more circumstances than a rogue can….as in, there are few situations where I’d recommend a +2 elemental burster over a plain +5 weapon for a rogue, unless you already know you'll connect a lot with it against your chosen monster type…you’ll want to experiment with the details of your build and always notice how often you miss in addition to how much damage you do when you hit. Brenna, for instance, used to dual Muckbanes; the generally low armor class of slimes, the freedom from taking ooze damage on the weapons, and the extra bane damage were very nice to have in combination, and in her opinion overroad the concern that she was using a low plus, non-finessable weapon. Of course, now with Everbright out there, Muckbanes aren’t quite as much in demand, but the illustration is still valid.

"If you're damage design is built around sneak attack, a high attack bonus is what you want. +5 shrimp fork beats a +1 acid burst rapier of pure good every time. At the high end of the level range, the weapon becomes irrelevant, so long as you can hit." - Brenna Wavkin

Precision can be a nice way to up your to-hit for things like Undead/Constructs, or any monsters that ignore your sneak damage anyway, or to up your hits in the early days before you get your full sneak dice/get your stats up/get hold of good weapons, etc. Brenna doesn’t run it any more (using Backstabbing weapons instead), but it’s still a good feat, since the halving of base damage doesn’t impact stat damager, alignment damage, or greater bane damage.

As far as enhancements go, maximize your attack bonus before you think about upping your damage bonus, and get the maximum Subtle Backstabber you can (lvl IV requires a minimum of 13 levels of rogue). This enhancement reduces the agro generated by your damage by 10% per level of enhancement, so level IV means only 60% of your damage counts toward monster agro…this lets you stay in Overdamage far longer than you would otherwise, reduces the number and depth of the valleys in your Damage Curve, and is a must have.

Crippling Strike (lvl 13) is *very* nice; 2 points of strength damage per hit adds up quickly, meaning by the time the monster has decided to turn your way he's not going to be hitting as hard or as often. And, in the meantime, you're helping out the tanks by taking the edge off your target's attacks.

Enhancement: Subtle Backstabber
For a fighting rogue (and nearly every rogue *can* be, with a little attention to attack bonus), you will *never* find a better use for your Enhancement points than keeping this one at the maximum available level. The current max, SB IV, is only available to lvl 13+ rogues, but any amount helps. Get the maximum level you can, regardless of build, and use it all the time. It allows you to stay in Overdamage longer regardless of your build details...it doesn't help you soloing, true, but I cannot express strongly enough the degree to which this enhancement will help you deal damage in a party.

“I’ve worked with and without this enhancement since it became available; for only 10 enhancement point total to get level IV, it’s a steal! So I'm all over it, of course.” – Brenna Wavekin


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iii) Tactics
Last In
Simple enough; let the group’s chosen tank lead the charge and so pick up initial agro. It’s easier to shed agro you never get in the first place, after all. A variation on this theme is to use stealth: if you’re not fast enough to be continually stealthed as the group moves, just turn it off long enough to get to a corner or doorway and then re-stealth so you’re not the first character the monsters see.

In and Out
Again, simple enough; stand just behind or beside the group’s tank, take a step or tumble forward and perform a series of strikes, then tumble back. If you’re new to the group, this gives you a chance to cautiously gage how well your tank picks up and holds agro. If you generate a heck of a lot of Overdamage when you go all out, pacing yourself may actually give the party better dps over the course of the quest. A 31 tumble gives you really nice distance back or to the side; a 36 tumble gives you the same distance going forward. Try it out; if it works for you, go for it. Just keep in mind that while you’re tumbling, you aren’t wanding/casting/swinging…so any activities you might do for yourself, for another member of the party, or to a monster are a no-go during the short, but noticeable duration of the tumble.

Sidestep
Never run. Again, *never* run. If you run in a straight line to avoid an agro’d monster, someone is likely to come after you to try and save you; this weakens the main group, and can cause a tough, but doable fight to turn into a route. Instead, tumble behind or jump over the tank(s); the monster chasing your will have to move around and, since he’s chasing you, is not doing damage to the rest of the party. Stay tight (and I do mean *tight*) on your tank, so he doesn’t lose any swings while trying to re-establish agro and go ahead and start on whatever the tank or caster was just fighting…just be prepared to tumble/jump over the tank again if that last monster is still on you.

Knife in the Back
If you flank (are behind, in DDO) the monster, you pick up a +2 circumstance attack bonus for free. Except when other circumstances dictate (e.g. the monster has a stack of friends behind him, who will now start to get that same bonus on *you* if you try for it), go for it any chance you get. This is a great party tactic against enemy casters in particular, since they like to dump area of effect spells on the party. If you’re behind him when you snag his agro, and in so doing get him turned around so whatever area of effect mischief he was about to unleash falls on you alone rather than on the whole party you’ll often end up saving the healers more mana that it costs to fix you up.

Turtle Up
Regardless of your AC or damage reduction, and whether or not you have a shield equipped, you can take considerably more hits if you’re blocking than if you’re standing there or swinging. If things look dicey and you can’t move (for instance, you’re holding the door against a horde of monsters who want to eat your healers and casters for lunch), turtle up and block. You’ll last longer than you would otherwise, you’ll pull less agro while the casters make stuff dead, and you’ll serve the tactical purpose (if not your kill count) much better than over agro’ing, dying, and causing the shield wall to fail.


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iv) The Barbarian Test
Simply put, rogues are dps. There are only two objective measures of relative dps in DDO right now: Kill Count and Agro Generation. Everything else is loaded with subjectivity; you want objective measurement, so you can't fool yourself into thinking you're better than you are.

Together, these two measures, Kill Count and Agro Generation, make up The Barbarian Test, which is how you stack up against your party's barbarian, who is generally accepted as the dps melee class in DDO.

If your kill count is in the range of your barbarian (and you're not just picking off things at the very end, but putting in an honest fight), you're golden. Yes, kill count rarely tells the whole story, but if you can get that you need test no further. The whole party can see what you're doing, and appreciate it; you're obviously doing something for the group besides traps and locks.

If you *don't* have the kill count, you need to periodically test Agro Generation on your build to see if your dps is high enough. Again, simple enough: can you pull agro off the Barbarian. If you can, congratz! You're riding the damage curve and putting out at least as much dps as the Barbarian, regardless of the end kill count. If you *can't* pull agro off the Barbarian, do some analysis. Are you missing a lot? Maybe it's time to work in a weapon of Backstabbing into your collection, slip in some Sneak Attack Accuracy Enhancements. Not enough damage per hit? Maybe swap some Sneak Attack Training Enhancements into your build. Not enough hits fast enough? Work in Haste potions to your attack chain, or take a look at the Speed Boost Enhancements.

If playing a rogue for dps were easy, this guide would never have been written. Continually test yourself in this area and, where necessary, make adjustments. That's the only way to get good at this class.

As of this writing, I'm running dual Treasons on a +11 BAB with +10 dex for a listed attack bonus of +26 + 3 backstabbing + 4 greater heroism +1 focusing chant and I can keep up with the barbarians I group with, who are equivalently equipped (SoS, etc). That's a mid-thirties total attack bonus at level 16.


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b) “How will I stay alive?”

A smart rogue learns not to depend on someone else for healing and defense, at least not all the time. Rogue’s get an undeserved reputation for draining the healer’s mana because of their (generally) few hit points compared to the martial classes; few hit points means the a hit on the rogue moves the hit point bar much further than the same hit on the barbarian, and, more importantly, distracts the healer from keeping the tank and/or casters up. Don’t be this rogue.

“Rogues with a reputation for taking care of themselves and their party get groups; those that do not, do not.” – Brenna Wavekin


i) Saving Throws
Rogues have mediocre fort/will saves, making resistance items of all kinds particularly handy for the class. Reflex saves are usually enough to do the job, but never forget that Uncanny Dodge doesn’t just boost your AC, it boosts your reflex saves as well; get in the habit of kicking it on for short boosts before you do something that looks particularly dangerous (doing Crucible at lvl 10ish? Hit your Uncanny Dodge just before you go into the underwater portion).

“If you have a high charisma stat, take a look at Force of Personality to bolster your will saves.” – Brenna Wavekin

Evasion and, even more so, Improved Evasion let you skip though traps, AoE spells, and dangerous areas that kill other classes. Improved Evasion comes highly recommended; anyone can roll a '1'.


ii) Armor Class
Armor class is good, if you can get enough of it. In the lower levels, Uncanny Dodge and a shield can go a long way, even for a dedicated two weapon fighter. When armor class isn’t enough, look at the other options. Rogue’s with a decent UMD can run blur, displacement, and stoneskin from scrolls, for instance. And, incidentally, I strongly recommend the Shield spell on a wand, scroll, or clickie for all those other twf rogues out there. You want to be able to hit a standing AC in the mid thirties as a minimum at level 12 if you’re going for AC, and probably won’t get a lot out of it until you can hit mid-40s. At level 16, if you want AC to make a big difference, you’ll want a standing AC in the high 40s to mid 50s.

”These standing AC recommendations are based on having Uncanny Dodge available; get these standing, then spam UD for an extra +6 AC that stacks with everything.” – Brenna Wavekin

Dex based rogues have an edge here, if they switch from regular armor to robes and armor items at the appropriate levels. Please see The Definitive AC Bonus Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115491) by Taerdra.

“Can’t stand robes, myself, though I’ve got the dex to use them. The white dragonscale robes are tolerable, as are a couple of the outfits. I always carry a shield, though…better to have it, and not need it, than need it and not have it.” – Brenna Wavekin


iii) Hit Points
More hit points are always good hit points. I’d never recommend using con as a dump stat on a rogue, simply because the class has so few hit points to start with, and can potentially pull so much damage to itself….and a single hit point per level means a lot more to you than to a fighter. If you’ve got a feat to spare, say, if you’re multiclassing in a level of fighter, you probably can’t go wrong by putting toughness into your build. Don’t forget items and wands that give you things like false life, aid, and other hit point buffs.


iv) Healing
If nothing else, you’ll want potions *and* wands of healing, plus either potions *or* wands of lesser restoration, remove fear, remove curse, and remove blindness. I’d recommend neutralize poison, and remove disease as well, if you’ve got the pack space. Self sufficiency is key; you tend to run closer to the bone than the martial classes, and can’t afford to be running at anything other than peak. Maybe that barbarian over there can mix it up with the monsters with a big curse blossom over his head; you can’t. A single splash level of a class that can use these on wands will help you on the way up without impacting your rogue-ishness overly much. See also the Use Magical Device section under skills for the DCs of common wands.

“I often sidestep the whole system. Sorry, but I do; rogue, doncha know, can't resist cheating a little. AC, Hit Points, Healing, all well and good…but a high UMD and a goodly sized pocket book let me buy stoneskin, blur, and displacement scrolls en masse. Quickdraw lets me replace them almost at will. And heavy fort plus good tactics let me get away with it.” – Brenna Wavekin


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c) “How will I handle traps/locks?”

I recommend a 14 int as a minimum on a rogue...this number, however, is not based on trap skills, it is based on skillpoints overall. Brenna started somewhat gimpy…

“Hey!!!” – Brenna Wavekin

…at a 12 int. I *do* miss the extra skill points on her to this day. I’ve gotten a +2 tome on her to boost her base int to 14. A level 14 rogue has 136 skill points, which is sufficient to max out 8 different skills without considering int at all...but for me personally, with a 12 int until level 14, I wish I had more skill points. *shrug* As stated in the Kinds of Rogue section, *if* you have a plan, it is quite doable to run a rogue with int as a dump stat and do all but two or three traps in the game without error.

See the excellent How do I make my <Insert Rogue Skill> High Enough? (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151231) by Impaqt.

”In the absence of such a plan, keep your int up. *wink*” - Brenna Wavekin

Max out your Spot, Search, and Disable Device, and put a fair number of points into Open Lock. If dex is your primary high stat, you can afford to skimp on your Open Locks a little…I’d still recommend keeping it up, though. The reasoning here: you’ll get multiple tries on locks, not necessarily on traps, so you can afford to not quite max this one out. Be prepared, though, to hunt for best spec OL gear. As you level, I’d recommend taking all the Search/Disable device Enhancements as they become available, and pick up Skill Boost and/or Way of the Mechanic. The rationale here is, when you’re leveling you’re likely to see a wide variance in traps and locks (e.g. running lvl 10 elite quests when you’re lvl 8…so you’re going into lvl 12 equivalent quests…); once you hit the cap, you can tweak things down a bit (Brenna, the 14 int rogue, at level 16 is running zero trap related enhancements, and can hit an unbuffed 43 Search and 51 Disable…and has done, without error, anything except a handful of high-watermark chest traps on elite.)

Some rogues de-emphasis Spot; I do not. A high 30s/low 40s at level 16 is very handy for spotting hidden monsters and detecting the presence of secret doors. Even in quests that the party is very familiar with, spot will flag an undetected trap *and* flag an undetected trap *box*, so in the case of a large, complicated trap with a box midway through or on the opposite side, Spot will give you a good indicator of where to start your Search. This can save you a lot of pain trying to remember where the box is to start your search.

Spot is also essential for detecting hidden monsters; combined with Stealth, you can see them well before they see you, allowing you to both alert the party to them and make sure you aren’t the first thing they agro on (see Tactics).

"Traps and locks are largely an exercise in accounting; once you know you have enough to handle the quests you want, the bloom is off the rose, and all that's left are the numbers. Numbers are not exciting. Combat is." - Brenna Wavekin


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d) “What skills do I want to max, and why?”

I’m presenting the non trap/lock skills in no particular order. I recommend putting at least some ranks into all of these; everything else is, in my opinion, situational. Yes, Brenna has points in Swim (half sea-elf concept character) and in Perform (1 level of Bard), but the skills below are the essential ones (plus the previously mentioned Spot/Search/Open Lock/Disarm Devices).

"I strongly recommend maxing out Spot/Search/Disable/UMD/Diplomacy, toss some points into Open Lock and Balance, then Jump, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, and Bluff to your personal taste." - Brenna Wavekin






i) Use Magical Devices

UMD is probably the single most useful skill on a rogue; the trapster skills are still essential, but at the high levels you will likely find yourself using a wand or reading a scroll far more often than you disarm a trap or unlock a door. Brenna runs a 39 UMD at the moment (standing), self-buffing to 44 with Greater Heroism and Focusing Chant. Max this skill, even if you don’t have a great charisma.

UMD is not just wand (or in Brenna’s case, Heal scroll) whipping. Consider some of the tactical options of:

Shield Wand DC 20
Blur Scroll DC 24
Stat Wand DC 24
False Life Wand DC 24
Resist Energy (10 pt) DC 24
Web Wand (for low levels) DC 24
Displacement Scroll DC 28
Stoneskin Scroll DC 32
Enervation Scroll DC 32
Waves of Exhaustion Scroll DC 44


Wand of Fireball DC 28 (open Sesame!)

Cure Light Wand DC 22
Cure Mod Wand DC 24
Cure Serious Wand DC 28
Cure Critical Wand DC 32

Cure Blindness Wand DC 28
Cure Disease Wand DC 28
Remove Curse Wand DC 28
Neutralize Poison Wand DC 32

Restoration Scroll DC 32
Raise Dead Scroll DC 36
Heal Scroll DC 40
Resurrection DC 44

Invisibility Scroll DC 24
Fire Shield Scroll DC 32
Shadow Walk Scroll DC 40
Teleport Scroll DC 36
Greater Teleport Scroll DC 44

"And keep in mind, this is just what you can buy off the vendor, not what you can get in chests or off the auction house. Shield wands greater than lvl 1, Stoneskin greater than level 7, and Resist Elements wands of level 11 are in fair demand, for obvious reasons." - Brenna Wavekin


Projections of UMD levels (assuming 16 rogue levels and no Raid gear):
19 Ranks
3 Feat, SF: UMD
1 Voice of the Master (Delere's Tomb end reward)
3 Golden Cartouche (Delere's Tomb end reward)
4 Greater Heroism
3 +6 Charisma item
1 Class Feat: Skill Mastery
---------------------------------------------------
34 UMD ...

8 Cha -> 33 UMD (can use Rogue Skill Boost to hit 38 for short periods)
16 Cha -> 37 UMD (can use Rogue Skill Boost to hit 42 for short periods)


Projections of UMD levels (assuming 16 rogue levels and Raid gear):
19 Ranks
3 Feat, SF: UMD
2 Head of Good Fortune (Reaver's Fate raid item)
5 7 Fingered Gloves (Titan Awakes raid item)
4 Greater Heroism
3 +6 Charisma item
1 Class Feat: Skill Mastery
---------------------------------------------------
37 UMD ...

8 Cha -> 36 UMD (can use Rogue Skill Boost to hit 41 for short periods)
16 Cha -> 40 UMD (can use Rogue Skill Boost to hit 45 for short periods)






ii) Jump

This is probably the place I wish I’d spent more skill points...well, here and Diplomacy. You’ll be forever jumping up on things (ledges and such) and over things (monsters, generally), and a high Jump score is a wonderful thing to have in pretty much any combat you get into, and most quests. The section I have on jump here is pretty short, but its way up there in terms of combat skills.




iii) Hide and Move Silently

These skills don’t have to be maxed to give you some good value, if you’ve got good items and/or dex, but I always recommend putting at least a few points into them. Even if you have no intent to stealth quests, or bypass large numbers of monsters (and you can), the ability to simply pop quickly into stealth and ensure *you* see *them* before *they* see *you* is huge. Granted, parties tend to be impatient, and every rogue has clicked their tongue at players who just step around a corner and says "Hey, we got *argh!* incoming!". Still, it’s so useful to be able to step around the corner, look, list what's there, and step back that a few points in these skills are quite in order. Keep them fairly even, practice them until they become second nature, and they will serve you well. See the section on Stealth.

Note that in Mod 7, Stealth was changed such that you don't lose it when you hit something. Coupled with a decent amount of twitch and some Faster Sneaking enhancements, you can move in and out of attack range even on agro'd monsters. Just be sure to break stealth if you want to exploit your twf/itwf/gtwf feats.





iv) Diplomacy

This is very useful now that the animation has been eliminated. Brenna put almost nothing into diplo, and gets by with a high rank diplo item and charisma.

“All part of my charm, doncha know.” – Brenna Wavekin

This is an AoE agro reduction skill that works on beings with some level of intelligence (i.e. It doesn’t work on animals, constructs other than warforged, etc). The area is roughly the equivalent to that of a Bless spell, so it’s not going to help you drop that archer agro unless you get close. Brenna, when buffed, can hit the low 30s which gives her maybe a 50/50 or so on high wisdom monsters such as divine casters, and maybe 90%+ on the run of the mill fighting monsters. You must have somewhere else for the agro to go, though, to shed agro using diplomacy…so it doesn’t help you if you’re soloing.

Diplomacy is also useful in avoiding fights; some quests (e.g. Crucible leaders, Vault of Night 2 giant, Chains of Flame cook) have monsters you can talk to and, if your diplomacy is high enough, avoid combat altogether.

Put some points into Diplo; max it out if you can. You'll be spamming it all the time.




v) Bluff

This is generally less useful than diplomacy in combat, principally because it has an animation and is single target. It has a range somewhat larger than your ranged sneak attack range (I’m guessing roughly 60ish feet), and permits one sneak attack if it is successful. It also generally spins the target around, at least for a moment, which can mitigate some damage...probably not enough to justify the animation, though. If you decided to pick up Improved Feint, then bluff is the skill checked to see what monsters are deceived. As with Diplomacy, bluff can occasionally be used to avoid combat. I’d have put a few less points in bluff, and a few more in diplomacy.

“I'd have dumped some of my Bluff points into Diplomacy, if I knew then what I know now. Bluff is still useful for soloing and to create tactical opportunities when grouped, but in groups Diplomacy is generally the superior skill.” – Brenna Wavekin





vi) Balance

This is good for getting back up off the ground once you’ve been knocked down. Since being immobilized and being dead are pretty close things for a rogue, this skill deserves a little seeing to, particularly if you’re a rogue of the lower-dex variety. There are many quests in which a good balance helps, and at least one raid that requires a good balance (The Twilight Forge). Worth at least a few points.





vii) Tumble

This is probably the first place I wouldn’t have spent as many skill points in. Yes, at 31 tumble you get to do those cool side rolls and backflips, and at 36+ you get the sweet forward rolls, and, yes, being able to fall long distances without a feather fall item is very nice…*but* if I could swap my 15 ranks in tumble with my 10 ranks in jump, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Tumble does evade well, it’s true, but while you’re evading your trapped in the animation. While jumping, I can swing/wand whip/change items/etc. but while I tumble, that’s all I’m doing. I’ve essentially made myself a non-combatant for the duration of the tumble…and I don’t like that.

“One very nice thing about tumble movement is it doesn't interrupt your attack chain as regular movement does. So, once you get good at tumble, just use forward and side rolls to get back on target of a moving monster and keep your attack chain (and yourself) rolling.” – Brenna Wavekin





viii) Haggle


Haggle makes purchasing wands, scrolls, pots, and gear much cheaper. It does not, however, kill monsters or solve quests. If you've got the points for it, I recommend it, but I'd put it toward the bottom of your priority list. A good haggle item, though, is a must.

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e) “What feats do I want, and why?”



i) Two Weapon Fighting - Pros and Cons

To the inexperienced, two weapon fighting (twf) gives you an extra attack and looks cool. It is that, sure, but potentially a great deal more. The -2 attack bonus caused by twf can easily be overcome by placing a weapon of backstabbing +2 in the offhand; this turns twf into an extra attack without a real downside, unless you count the loss of a shield bonus into the mix...this is a real disadvantage, at least until you get good enough at umd and wand whipping to keep a Shield spell up constantly or use something other than AC to keep yourself combat effective.

Even so, the extra attack from twf is not worth the loss in AC and attack bonus...unless...again, *unless* one or more of three things happen:

1) you’re managing your attack bonus so you can connect

2) you're shooting for a specific effect, such as a weapon of backstabbing +3 or better (which makes your main hand even more accurate than if you were running single weapon,) or if you were using a specialty weapon in the offhand (destruction for the occasional hit and significant reduction in your target's AC, seeker for the extra damage or special effect of a crit confirmation, or cursespewing/strength sapping/whatever).

3) you’re managing your agro and not get beaten about the head and shoulders because you have a lower AC than you could have.

If you are keeping these three things in mind, twf gets good. Improved twf and greater twf get really, really good because of the number of extra attacks you are getting.


“I swap between ITWF and Toughness, and back again, depending on my mood, and between TWF and Sword & Board depending on the circumstances.” – Brenna Wavekin





ii) Precision

While running this toggled feat, you gain a +4 attack bonus, but halve your base damage, including any and all sneak attack damage. Greater Bane, Elemental, and Alignment based damage is not halved, however. This is a great feat for rogues that don’t take a high stat for an attack bonus, or for rogues fighting monsters who aren’t vulnerable to sneak attack but who still wish to keep their damage high. Brenna spec’d out of it in favor of QuickDraw of all things, and then for Force of Personality, because an “of destruction" weapon was easily equipped, used, and then swapped out as needed.

“I also use weapons or items of Backstabbing for the most part, which gives me enough of an attack bonus not to miss Precision on anything, even the high AC Orthons.” – Brenna Wavekin





iii) Improved Critical

Great on Strong Rogues or those with specialty weapons that need crits to fire (Banishing, Smiting, Crippling). A *very* popular feat in most of the rogue builds out there, particularly if you can get a pair of puncturing/banishing/smiting rapiers...since this feat multiplies the threat range, a high threat range weapon really makes it useful. If you've got a seeker +10 dagger in your off-hand, and a puncturing rapier in your main, look out! Once I got some nice weapons (dual punct rapiers, dual banishing rapiers, smiting rapier) this feat became a monster. Very nice pick for a rogue.






iv) The Spring Attack Line

Not very impressed, actually. I built Xanna, my 12/2 rogue/fighter, in part to work Spring Attack. It’s a good feat, and disregarding the -4 penalty to attack bonus for moving is very nice, but needing three feats to reach it just didn’t work for me. Dodge might have been useful for a sword 'n board spec'd rogue, but Mobility, as implemented in DDO, was just not worth the feat spent on it. The additional +4 to AC Mobility gives while tumbling is good, but not at the expense of having to tumble to get it (i.e. not at the expense of essentially removing yourself from the fight). If you *do* take the spring attack line, you want to exploit it by staying in nearly continuous motion but within a small area around your party and the monsters you’re fighting. A build with several fighter levels in it might love it (spare feats).





v) Combat Expertise and Company

Loved Improved Feint, a really lovely AoE bluff, and loved the extra AC of CE. However, every time I pulled out a wand or scroll, or cast a clickie, CE had to be restarted…this got old really, really fast and so I spec’d out of it. The AC is really, really nice, and Improved Feint is on a separate timer from your bluff/diplomacy so it can really open up a lot of attack opportunities. CE is a -5 attack bonus also, so be sure you’ve got a high enough attack bonus to fight effectively while running it, else you’ll need to think carefully about when you do and do not use it.





vi) Power Attack

I’ve seen some strength based builds with high attack bonus that love this feat; I don’t have a high strength, and so don’t have it. An extra 50% damage from strength is nice; the -5 on attack bonus is not so nice. If you’ve got a build that supports this, go for it; I think the majority of rogue builds should shy away.





vii) Skill Focus/Skill Feats

For the most part, I would shy away from these with the exception of Skill Focus: UMD. If you’re build is a little lower in the stats department (say, a low int build to get higher physical stats, and don’t yet have the gear to compensate), then you may want to put in Skill Focus: Search, Skill Focus: Disable Device, and/or Nimble Fingers to make up the difference.

However, with skill items that run up to +15, ranks that run up to 19, and stat bonuses that run into the +5s through +12s or better, the Skill feats stack up poorly from a cost/benefit perspective. SF: UMD is an exception because the best UMD skill item out there is +5 (rare raid loot) and because at present there are so many useful things to do with scroll, wand, and item use in DDO. If you can hit a 39 or so, adding more gets a little less useful...39 gives you Greater Heroism and Heal scrolls without error, and even Resurrection and Greater Teleport on a '5'. Going beyond that, as of Mod 7, is strictly a judgement call. You might, for instance, want to get to 42, then spec out of SF:UMD...or perhaps you want to hit a 41 and put something else in your trinket slot instead of the Head of Good Fortune.





viii) Force of Personality

I really, really recommend this feat for high Cha rogues. It makes Will saves much easier, and means I don't have to choose between a wisdom item (for saves) and a cha item (for UMD): they're the same item!





ix) Ranged Feats

More to come...need some input from Ranged Spec rogues.


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III) Choice Gear



a. General


Coinlord Favor
This isn’t an item per se, but allows you to carry more gear. To take full advantage of the rogue class, you’ll want gear to augment your skills, wands/scrolls/potions to help yourself out in and out of combat, and weapon selections to handle both regular monsters and such things as slimes/undead/constructs. All that gear takes up a lot of space, both on your hotbars and in your backpack. Coinlord favor gets you more backpack space (a rare drop, a damaged portable hole, is required for the second set of space), which lets you carry more of your esoteric gear, which in turn helps you get your job done.


User Interface Customization
Again, not an item per se, but allows you fast access to your gear, which, again, you’ll likely be carrying a lot of. That shield wand isn’t very useful stuffed into your backpack; having the best +15 disable device goggles doesn’t help you very much if you forget to put them on. Tip: put your best skill item next to the skill on your hotbar. That way, I can see immediately if, for instance, I’m going to disable a trap and don’t have my disable devices skill item on. I use a mix of mouse and hotkeys on Brenna:

1- Utility button (Enervate scrolls, wands for spamming, quest items, etc)
2- Diplomacy
3- Stealth
4- My Shield
5- My Shield
6- Primary Weapon Set
7 through 9 – Other Weapon Sets
10 – Heal potions
F2 – Uncanny Dodge
F3 – Assassinate or Haste Boost (depending on what I'm spec'd for at the time)
F4 – Bluff
F5 – Haste potions
F6 - Remove Fear potions (I have a Panacea clickie...before I had that, Remove Blindness potions went here)
F7 – Remove Curse potions
F8 - Lesser Restoration potions.
etc.
etc.

Screenie of my current interface (http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/theluckyjosh/DDO/ScreenShot00077.jpg).

Tools and Skill Items
Get the best you can find for your level, always. I’m a ‘rogues are dps’ advocate, but since the class is the only one that gets to open locks and disable traps, I believe anyone playing the class should be able to do just that. As a rule of thumb, you should have items equivalent to your level, or if you can’t find items equivalent to your level, augment your skills with potions/clickies of Fox’s Cunning and/or Heroism until you find such. Tools seems to drop based on quest level; there is overlap:
Masterwork lvl 1 to 3
+1 lvl 2 to 4
+2 lvl 4 to 9
+3 lvl 8 to 11
+4 lvl 11 to 12
+5 lvl 13+
With decent scores, you can use tools equivalent to your level until you’ve got enough cash to keep yourself in +5s from the AH or high level quests. You should be using skill items with a bonus equal to your level or at most a couple levels down. Again, if you’re running a recommended dex and int, you’ve got some wiggle room, but you don’t want to stack low stats, low enhancements, low skill item, *and* low tools all together.

“I blew a box in VoN 4 that way; got in a hurry, figured I had plenty of room, and grabbed some masterwork off a vendor instead of fishing +3s out of my bank. The box is one of the high water marks for the level (shrine trap) and I blew it. Very embarrassing.” – Brenna Wavekin




b. Weapons

“of Deception” Weapons
Really, *really* nice on a high sneak attack designed rogues. Seems to proc ~5% of the time, so if you're a dual-wielding deception type with haste and speed boost, you'll get one every couple attack cycles. The visual effect is similar to Ray of Enfeeblement's (this flickering black nimbus around the target) and lasts for about ~2 seconds...enough for a couple of attack chains of sneak attack. Not something you can bank on, but good to get if you pick up agro or to create an opening. Effective use of Deception requires a sense of combat rhythm: go slowish, manage your agro, in and out behind the tanks, but when it hits you push in and *kill* the deceived monster. Not saying it doesn’t require practice, but I am saying it is *very* effective once you get good at it.

“The rogue’s vorpal.” – Brenna Wavekin

This effect is weapon specific, so having one in the offhand isn't going to put Deception on your main hand when you duel wield. There's a fair number of something of Deception in House D and on the AH for reasonable prices. And Deception is only a +1 add to the weapon’s level, meaning you can get high to-hit or extra damage weapon attributes fairly easily.

Unfortunately, it *is* a suffix, so you miss out on goodies like Greater Bane, Puncturing, and Pure Good. If you’re key design decisions for damage are not based on sneak attack damage (a Precision build, for instance, using stat damagers or holy of pure good), and you don’t get agro often, you may as well skip “of Deception” and use items with another suffix. However, I cannot recommend these highly enough for the sneak attack based, twf/itwf/gtwf fighting rogues out there…other types may find them somewhat meh, since with fewer hits per round the deception doesn’t fire nearly as often…these weapons are one of the major reasons I switched over to rogue speed boost in my current incarnation of Brenna.

Analysis on Deception (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1651482&postcount=53); note that you probably don't want to use this suffix in Shroud 4 specifically.

“If you're going to be Deception fighting, you want accuracy and speed, speed, speed. Your goal is to get the Deception to proc before you quite get monster agro, then keep proc'ing as you kill it. If you're going itwf, with speedboost, and carry a stack of haste pots, you'll like it. If you're primarily sword and board and w/o speedboost, your proc'ing rate will be kinda meh. I'd still take it over a pure good suffix, though perhaps not a greater bane if you're going sword and board.” – Brenna Wavekin


”of Backstabbing” Weapons
Only the best modifier of Backstabbing applies, but it applies to both weapons when you duel wield. Best one I've seen so far outside of raid l00t (Tharne's Goggles are BS +5; Treason is BS +3 plus lots of other nice attributes. Note that in most situations, the Tharne's item set will make your Treasons obsolete). Very good for rogue’s who haven’t taken Precision, or have a lower than average attack bonus. Note: the damage of a backstabbing weapon is 150% of its bonus, rounded up. So, as long as you don’t have agro, a weapon with “of Backstabbing +3” is going to be +3 to hit and +5 on the damage. A weapon of backstabbing in the main hand is nice for a single-weapon rogue; a +3 or better in the offhand actually ups your DPS even if you’ve just got the basic twf feat.


"of Puncturing" Weapons
Dual puncturers are very nice, if you've got the Improve Crit: Pierce feat and your weapons have a decent threat range (e.g. rapiers). As an example in Running With the Devils on Hard or above, dual +5 rapiers of puncturing beat out dual rapiers of Banishing on the Eladrin; for the Devils, banishing still wins up to Elite in that quest. Soloing (which includes any roaming away from the main group), dual puncturing + haste + imp crit: pierce wins out over Deception. Stuff is dead from the con damage before the deception fires.

“Lately, I've been running dual-puncturing rapiers when I'm solo or for low con/high hp mobs, and use dual deception when I'm on red names."– Brenna Wavekin

Puncturing does pretty much the same con damage per time as Wounding, if you're spec'd with imp crit: pierce and are using high threat puncturers. If you've got the strength to consistently punch through the DR of whatever you're fighting, then I would recommend Wounding; if not, I would recommend Puncturing. Either way, I recommend planning of +5's for the end game to maximize you're crit confirmation/DR penetration respectively.

Of course, if you've got a high-threat wounding of puncturing weapon (or weapons), you're already using them every chance you get, so the above recommendations may be ignored. :)


Holy of Pure Good Weapons
Great for undead until you get Greater Undead Bane weapons. If you can get these on blunts (for skellies) or slashers (for zombie types) all the better, but the Holy/Pure Good damage sidesteps their damage resistance anyway, so you’ll be doing *some* damage (always better than none) regardless of weapon or undead type. Rogue’s with Precision will find they out damage rogue’s without by using these weapon types against undead, as these weapons are usually a lower attack bonus than equivalent weapons of the level. This is a big plus for Precision, given the number of undead in the game and relative availability of these kinds of weapons.





c. Armor

The best armor for your dex is the way you want to go. Fearsome is great for monsters that can be feared (undead and constructs ignore fearsome) and worth the loss of some armor class, at least in my opinion. Adamantine typically has too high a skill penalty to use, while Mithril is in heavy demand. When looking at an armor, take a careful scan through for arcane spell failure; that will come into play whenever you try to UMD an arcane scroll but not when you’re using a divine scroll or any wand.

If you’re considering switching over to robes, a 30 dex and +5 armor bracers give the same armor class as a +5 Mithral chain shirt. Also, the quick-swap capability of robes gives them a great deal of utility over regular armor, which has a equipping delay that often makes switching impractical.

Some key armor vs dex breakpoints (assuming +5 armor or +5 armor bracers):
Dex 20 -> Mithral Breastplate or Studded Leather (Arcane spell failure 15%)
Dex 22 -> Mithral Chain Shirt or Leather (Arcane spell failure 10%)
Dex 26 -> Padded (Arcane spell failure 5%)
Dex 30 -> Robes + Amor Bracers (Arcane spell failure 0%)

You can use a shield without getting the shield proficiency and without impacting your skills or attack bonus at all; just look for one that has no skill modifier. A shield will add to your arcane spell failure.

“At the moment, I’m wearing white dragonscale robes or various outfits and use a heavy mithral shield when need be.” – Brenna Wavekin




d. Utility

This section covers items not addressed elsewhere (e.g. under healing, UMD, tactics, etc.)

**************
Heavy Fortification
If you take none of my other advice, at least take this one: get Fort, and get Heavy Fort as soon as it becomes available.
Get this as soon as available; use lesser versions until then. With your hitpoints, the difference between a crit and death is too fine for words. Armor with heavy fort on it is probably the first thing you’ll encounter (seems to be min level 8). The auction house has heavy fort items, but these tend to be expensive except for armors.

As collectables go, the Black Anvil Mines ore run gives a great heavy fort necklace, level 9 required, and is not too hard to complete. I used to do solo ore runs in there at level 10…...note the linked guide (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=77591&highlight=Black+Anvil+Mines) is two years old; you'll need to make modifications based on the current game.

At level 11, Minos Legens is available: Heavy Fort + Toughness feat is hard to argue with. You can get this by collecting 20 tapestry pieces in the Orchard of the Macabre and turning them in to the collector in the northern part of the Necropolis.
**************

Debuff Removal Potions/Clickies
Remove Blindness, Disease, Poison, Fear, Lesser Restoration, and Haste (for removing Slow). Just get 'em. With the exception of Haste, you can also use all these potions on another player, just select the other player before clicking.

Death Block
When you start encountering beholders (say, level 8ish range perhaps) you *must* have deathblock; your fort saves are sub-par, and a death spell means just that (more often than not). You can still get disintegrated, but you won’t go down nearly as fast as you will without deathblock. Deathblock is first found on armors and shields, then on items. Items and shields are best, as you can quickly equip them if you need them, but armor is cheapest. Note: Deathblock is not Deathward. Deathward is a buff that stops various negative energy effects, but can be dispelled. Deathblock specifically only stops death spells, but cannot be dispelled...which is key against beholders, as they constantly dispel buffs.

The best deathblock item is the Silver Flame neckace, once you've got it fully upgraded. This not only gives you deathblock, but also absorbs 10 negative energy effects per rest. Beholders also throw other negative energy effects at you, such as inflict wounds and level drains, which get absorbed by the necklace on a one per one basis.

Deathward is also very, very useful in non-Dispelling combats, as it blocks all negative energy effects as long as it's up. It also blocks the Vorpal effect, which Deathblock does not. The best Deathward clickie is the Goggles of the Render Guards from the Tangleroot end rewards.

“I'm carrying the necklace and two sets of goggles. Saved me many, many times.” – Brenna Wavekin

Luck Items
A luck bonus helps out your saves and boosts all your skills. A trinket, the Luckstone, is a rare drop but seems to drop in any quest; another trinket, the Head of Good Fortune, is raid loot from the Reaver. Both are excellent to have, and of prime interest for rogues. A couple of staffs also drop with a +2 luck bonus, but because they are two handed and not overly great in combat they’re not prime rogue material (need weapons in your hands to do damage; need a wand/scroll in one hand if you want to UMD it).

Feather Fall Items
Even with a maxed tumble score, sometimes you want to drift down and steer so you can pick your landing spot. At the high levels, this is so useful as to be almost essential.

Underwater Action Items
As with Feather Fall items above. You typically have a lower con score than other melee classes, and so will have fewer hit points to survive drowning; swim itself is a strength skill, which will determine how fast you run out of breath and start taking damage. If you want to keep up (and not drown), you’re going to need one of these as soon as you can find one.

Jump Clickie/Items
Extremely handy for getting into unusual places to range monsters or to bypass/jump over traps and pits. You’ll get consistent use out of a jump item, and occasional but needed use out of a jump clickie or potions.

Shield Wands/Clickies
Must have for bow/xbow/twf types, situational for others, but I recommend carrying them to handle monsters who like to spam force spells. A fighter often has the hit points to grit through these kinds of onslaughts. Rogue’s typically do not. Note: These will not, by the way, help you against a force trap.

Planar Girds
These are rare items, but very, very useful to a rogue as they not only boost your skills, they boost your saves, your attack bonus, provide a cushion of extra hit points, and make you immune to Fear. They’re available at level 9, and drop only in the quest Xorian Cipher, but are very, very nice to have for those moments when you don’t have Greater Heroism available from an arcane caster or don't quite have the UMD to scroll your own.

Buff Potions/Clickies
Heroism and Haste are pretty much must haves, until you have easy access to a Planar Gird or can scroll Greater Heroism. Boosts saves, attack bonus, and skills. Even once you get into the high levels and can generally get a Greater Heroism from a friendly mage, you’ll want these as backups if for some reason you can't Gird or scroll. Likewise, Haste whenever you need it makes you better at everything you do, so always carry a stack of Haste pots....faster is better: attacking, retreating, jumping, whatever. If you're not shooting for AC (which is probably any time your dual-wielding), consider Rage potions/clickies; +2 str for a little extra damage and +2 con for some extra hitpoints...+1 to will saves is bonus.

Skill/Stat Potions
At the lower levels, being able to put on a Fox’s Cunning or a Cat’s Grace is very, very useful. Once you get +4 or better stat items, the utility of these drops off (they don’t stack).

About the same time, however, you’ll start picking up collectables wanted by some folks on the Spire in House D: skill and stat items from +1 to +3 that stack with your items and last two minutes. Depending on your build and where you are on the sweet spots of various skills, you may want to turn in your collectables and keep a bunch of these on hand. Unfortunately, the House D stat and skill boosts have a very, very short duration...better to use them for a specific, static thing (doing a particularly hard trap, hitting a stat rune) than to rely on them in combat.

Divine Power Clickies
Very nice. Get a clickie of Divine Power with 3 to 5 charges on them and keep it handy. Only lasts for 40 seconds but it's a really sweet 40 seconds of Fighter BAB. The auction house and broker's both tend to have them. Don't buy the ones with only 1 charge, that'll be a waste of pack space. If you’ve got attack bonus to spare (depending on your build and what you’re fighting) you will get more or less use out of these. I don’t currently carry one, because of other gear I'm using, but having at least one 3/day is a good investment in pack space for dealing with very high AC targets as you level.


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IV) Stealth

How Stealth Works

Whatever your hide or move silently scores, nothing happens until you turn the skill on. Stealth is a toggle, removed if you cast (spell/wand/scroll/some potions), tumble, or take a hit in combat. As with any item, skill, or spell in DDO, putting it somewhere easily visible and accessible on your hotbar ensures you use it more often and effectively. Brenna’s is ‘3’ on her 1st hotbar, as she uses it all the time.

Stealth, as implemented in DDO has three primary uses, generally increasing in order of difficulty. I’ve chosen to illustrate those three primary uses in order of difficulty as a framework discussing stealth:

- Being the Scout: Seeing the monsters before they see you and your party.
- Being the Assassin: Getting up on a monster before it’s alerted, and attacking first.
- Being the Master Thief: Accomplishing an objective or slipping by groups of monsters between you and your objective…without having to fight.

These require, in ascending order, greater levels of hide/move silently and - important note here – greater levels of experience using stealth. Each level of stealth builds on the ones before it.

“Stealth, like many other things in Stormreach, has a twitch component. More practice using it means better twitch, which means better results.” – Brenna Wavekin





a. Scout



- The Dark Crouch
- The ‘Eyes’ Icon
- Hot Feet
Being the Scout is simply being in stealth when you turn a corner or enter a room; if you can see them before they can see you, you and your party pick up an edge. If it looks like a tough fight, you can stealth back around the corner and buff or make other readiness before engaging. If you’re doing a series of rooms looking for a random boss or whatnot, this can let you skip individual fights and conserve resources. If you already know the quest well enough that you know where each and every fight is, then you don’t need to do this.

“See them before they see you.” – Brenna Wavekin

The Dark Crouch
The first thing one notices is the ‘dark crouch’ that slides over your character when you enter stealth; this is a useful indicator, beyond the the active icon on your hotbar, that you’re actually *in* stealth. This becomes very handy if you’re using it for Being the Master Thief below; more about that later, but for now just know if your fingers or mouse can find your Stealth skill and your stealth items without having to hunt for them, everything in the more advanced stealth sections gets much, much easier.

The ‘Eyes’ Icon
The second thing one notices is usually the ‘eyes’ icon off to one side of your character. The eyes represent the ambient lighting, and in so doing give you a general feel for the circumstance bonus someone has to see you: more eyes mean a larger circumstance bonus, and so a better chance a monster is going to spot you. When picking out a path to or through monsters, you want to minimize the number of eyes as often as possible, and minimize the amount of time you spend with more than one eye.

“In other words, stick to the shadows, and avoid well lit areas. “ – Brenna Wavekin

Hot Feet
The third thing one notices is ‘hot feet’ around your character’s feet; these red flashes typically occur when moving over debris or other loose objects on the ground. As with the ‘eyes’, these represent a circumstance bonus to the monster’s listen, as you are making more noise than usual. Avoid making more noise where possible, and pick a route you can move through with a minimum of ‘hot feet’. There often is such a route; look at the ground ahead of your character and avoid the debris or rough areas.

“If you’re noisy, and close to monsters, try to move as little as possible and let them walk by or, better, look ahead and pick out the least noisy routes.” – Brenna Wavekin

If you don’t have at least a positive stealth score, or don’t turn your stealth on, hang back a bit. If you’re noisy, or just don’t want to stealth, again, hang back a bit. Just being *in* stealth forces the monsters to do a spot check to find you, and if there’s enough distance between your feet and their eye, they won’t pick you up right away. However, few things are more annoying than sliding around a corner, seeing a nasty looking fight, and be in the process of telling the rest of the party about it only to find the monsters coming straight at you because the mage is just standing there in plain sight or a character in heavy armor carrying a command item is trying to stealth with a -10 or worse stealth score. Yes, we all have that intolerable itch to see what’s going on, but have at least a positive hide/move silently and turn your stealth on if you want to stack up on the stealthers; there’s hardly anything to it, so long as you don’t behave foolishly.

“Your gear often has stealth of its own, and can sneak up on you; take a look at your active hide/move silent scores with your gear equipped. Your active skill might (unpleasantly) surprise you.” – Brenna Wavekin




b. Assassin



- Sight
- Sound
- Smell(?)
Being the Assassin means, for a rogue, getting close enough to land the first strike undetected. To the concepts of Scouting above, we’ll add Sight, Hearing, and then add a bit about spiders and oozes/slimes, which seem to smell you. Your best single rule of thumb is to treat the monsters as you’d treat the real thing if you were trying to slip by them: stay out of their sight line, and don’t get too close until you’re ready to put that dagger in their back.

Sight
Monsters use their eyes to Spot you. This is a function of their Spot score vs your Hide score, but no die roll is involved; they see you or they don’t. Most monsters have their eyes in front of their heads, so if they’re facing away, they can’t Spot you. Distances is a factor, as is ambient light (the number of ‘eyes’ you have next to you), so the shorter the distance and the better the light, the higher the Hide score you need to remain undetected. Monsters get an incremental bonus to Spot the longer you stay in their sight lines, so you want to minimize the time you’re in a monster’s direct line of sight even if you’re doing so at a range that seems safe. Four legged critters of the canine and feline varieties seem to have a higher Spot score than the two legged ones, often significantly so.

Sound
Monsters (again, with some exceptions) use their ears to Listen for you, comparing it to how well you Move Silently. As with Spot above, distance is a factor, as are Hot Feet. This is an omni-directional ability; no aspect of the monster seems to be riskier than another. If you aren’t moving, they don’t get a Listen check even if you’re not in stealth; if you’re breaking things (say, around that corner just before you stealth) they *do* get a listen check and may be facing or wandering your way to investigate when you come to that corner to take a peak around. I’ve not found a good, verifiable test to see if they gain an incremental Listen bonus as they do Spot.

Smell(?)
Spiders and oozes/slimes appear to use some mechanism other than either hearing or sight to locate you; they appear to use some flavor of tremor sense, and it does have a range or a trigger (else they’d be tracking you from the moment you enter the dungeon). They will lock on to you pretty much right away when you cross their agro threshold and start right up attacking you.

Using these concepts should allow you, with a decent Hide/Move Silently score, to slip up on a monster with a good chance of landing the first hit. At the low levels, this can be difficult to pull off, particularly against high Spot/Listen monsters (which gave rise to the myth that dogs can see through Stealth), but as you get good skill items and put in some practice, it isn’t very difficult to get the First Strike in.




c. Master Thief (aka ‘The Stealth Picture’)



- Considerations
- Contingencies
This is what makes all the points spent in Hide and Move Silently worthwhile: the ability to simply slip by a horde of monsters and either snag an item or go right along our merry way to the next step of the quest with resources intact. There are many simple encounters that Scout or Assassin skills are sufficient to pull off; however, when I’m talking Master Thief, I’m talking precision movement among and around multiple (and often moving) monsters of varying detection abilities in physically complex areas or close quarters, often to filch an item they’re guarding, pull a lever, and get out again without alerting them.

“There are few things as rewarding to a rogue as slipping into a heavily guarded citadel, sliding past guards, traps, and wards, then making off with the l00t without ever having alerted a guard to your presence.” – Brenna Wavekin


Considerations

- Terrain
- Monster Behavior
Consider the discussion under Scout (which is mostly about the rogue), add the content under Assassin (which is mostly about the monsters you’re trying to sneak around) then combine them into a mental map of your environment, actions and options. I was originally going to call this section ‘Analysis’, but Considerations + Contingencies is a better mnemonic.

“Bah, just call the whole thing ‘The Stealth Picture’ and have done with it.” – Brenna Wavekin

Terrain and Monster Behavior complicate things. No matter what, there will always be new things to observe in mid-sneak, either things you missed when you first decided to sneak or due to actions of the monsters. How well you adapt to a changing stealth picture will determine how good you will be at the sneaksman’s trade. Sure, you *were* planning on sliding to the left of the warbosses room in Tangleroot, but you’ve just noticed one of the clerics moved over next to another there in the back, and going the left side just got a lot harder. Do you go for it and linger in that pool of shadow for a few seconds and see if he wanders back the other way, thus clearing a space for to slip through? Or do you take a quick risk and cross the open but heavily lit center of the room while everyone appears to have his back turned?



Terrain
The area you’re stealthing through is more than flat space with pools of light and shadow. Use the area around you as part of your stealth picture and improve your results. Some terrain is helpful, and other terrain is hurtful.

Boxes are more than breakables, and can often be climbed, either to get more standoff from a patrolling monster or to climb over a big pile of them and drop down the other side, bypassing him entirely. Bridge railings, too, are often mountable while stealthed and can often give you enough room to avoid stepping on the guards. Ladders, if you start sneaking *before* mounting them, can also give you a clean way to avoid trouble. Water, like ladders, can be sneaked through if you start *before* you enter…you’re usually not so concerned about being stealthed *in* the water as you are being stealthed when you eventually come *out* of the water.

Vases and other objects too small to be climbed, yet large enough to prevent your movement, are a pain. They can make an ordinarily empty room something of a maze, if there are a lot of them lying around. The same with braziers and other illuminants; not only do they create large pools of light, they often block movement. This can be useful for playing ring around the rosy with an alerted monster, but generally they just get in the way.

Some terrain is large enough to block line of sight; these are both useful and dangerous, as you can use them to reduced the chance of being spotted by putting them between you and the monster, but also can be quite dangerous, because you won’t know if there’s another monster on the far side of the object until you get there. Pillars, thrones, very large stacks of crates, fallen debris, door frames…these are all examples of this kind of terrain, terrain you can sometimes use to alter monster behavior.

“When I open doors, I stand off to one side so the frame is between me and the room. Then I can often go into sneak and take a look around the room without pulling agro.” – Brenna Wavekin



Monster Behavior

- Asleep
- Non-alerted
- Alerted
- Agro’d
Learn to read the monsters. Caster types typically have a higher Spot than warrior types; monsters that are invisible typically have higher senses than those that aren’t. Monsters who continuously or randomly move their heads or bodies around are harder to deal with than those that walk a continuous patrol path with little deviation. Paying attention to what the monster is doing will both clue you in on their relative threat and let you know how close you are to breaking your stealth.



Asleep

Self-explanatory. Sleeping monsters are the easiest to sneak past, and the least likely to be stirred up by nearby combat…just don’t expect them to *stay* asleep if you walk over them or kill another monster in the same room. You can often, however, get away with opening a door, pulling a switch, or opening a chest while they’re around. Just be sure to drop back into stealth immediately and, *most importantly*, before you move. Sleeping monsters react to sound rather than sight; you can get cocky after sliding around a whole mess of them, then take just one un-stealthed step and alert them all.

“There are old rogues, and there are bold rogues, but there are no old, bold rogues.” – Brenna Wavekin



Non-alerted

The default monster state. Depending on what you do and where, they can transition to the Alerted state or directly to Agro’d in a split second. Typically, a monster moves from non-alerted to alerted by using his Listen score; you made a little noise and the monster starts looking around more actively and/or begins to drift over to your location. You can use this to your advantage if you can manage to be outside the area of the monster’s observation, then use a ranged weapon to make noise over in the direction you want the monster to go (this will break stealth, so you need to be and stay out of the monsters view). This will shift the monster to an alert state, but it is sometimes more useful to have an alerted monster over to one side than a non-alerted one standing right where you intend to stealth.

Watch their sight lines, the way they move their heads, and how they move. A scout that just moved is less likely to move again, at least right away…giving monsters a chance to move will make openings where there were none.

“Think places *and* spaces: where you want to go, and the tight spots you need to pass through to get there.” – Brenna Wavekin



Alerted

A monster saw or heard something, but not enough to draw agro right away. This is also a common default state to spawned monsters; you can tell who they are, they’re the ones that run in and start doing search patterns in the corridor you just entered after a scout rang a bell, or after a scripted trigger. Alerted monsters have a higher Spot and Listen than un-alerted ones, and as such have a higher impact on your stealth picture than un-alerted ones.



Agro’d

They’ve Spotted you, either because they saw through your stealth or because you dropped it for a moment. This won’t immediately break your stealth to all the monsters present, but the ones close to you will be right on you. You’ve got a couple options here: move and re-stealth, fight, or flight.



Move and Re-Stealth

Monsters de-agro poorly, if at all, but you *can* re-establish some semblance of stealth even if you picked up agro. If you try it, break line of sight as soon as possible by going around a corner or ducking behind a pillar so they stop incrementing their Spot score; switch to a darker area and move for distance (preferably off their path of direct approach) to try and reduce their spot. So long as you have stealth active, they’ll be forced to make Spot checks to locate you. This leads to the ‘jerky’ behavior on the part of the monsters, as they move to, stop, and then attack the location they last Spotted you. If you’re nimble and have good ground speed from striders, haste, shadow walk, or the like, you’ve got a chance of evading the slower moving monsters.

“Drow scorpions and the like can never be considered ‘slower moving monsters’.” – Brenna Wavekin

You still have your stealth picture, but it is now infinitely more complicated than it was before, as the agro’d monsters will keep trying to locate and kill you until they either leash or are blocked by other monsters and terrain. It is entirely possible, however, to keep your stealth in the presence of non-alerted monsters while being pursued by agro’d ones…it’s just very difficult, as every time you get hit, your stealth drops and you can potentially agro more monsters. This takes a skill with stealth that is largely reflex, and an intuitive use of the stealth picture.

“My personal best here is from ‘Purge the Fallen Shrine’; we picked up agro while shooting a stealth video and I ended up bouncing in and out of stealth pretty much continuously while trying to gather stones and get them to the shrine. I think at one point I had the whole map looking for me, but not quite able to lock onto me. Dozens of mephitis, flensers, and reavers running around and striking at shadows trying to find me. Funniest thing I ever saw.” – Brenna Wavekin




Fight

Fighting in a suddenly agro’d room can be hectic; if you suddenly end up surrounded by monsters all taking a swing at you, casting spells, or otherwise making your life uncomfortable, you’re in a bad spot. Odds are, you’re wearing your stealth items instead of your fighting gear, you’re probably not fully buffed, and you’re probably at least a little bit startled by the event. On top of all that, if you could take them all easily you probably wouldn’t be stealthing in the first place. Not a pretty picture; I’ve lost count of the number of times stealth went bad and I picked up debt.



Flight

Just take off and go for a safe spot. I prefer this, in general, to fighting it out, since if I could just take them all on I’d probably not have bothered to sneak in the first place. The hard part about flight is, you generally want to have an idea of your escape route *before* things go bad; it's far too easy to pick up additional agro, or trap yourself, in the heat of the moment.




d. Where to Practice Stealth

Originally, I was going to create a laundry list of questions that I ask myself constant while doing a hard bit o' sneakin'...but then I realized that just won't work. Instead, let me recommend a few quests that I learned to sneak from, and the levels at which I did them. As a rule, you want to start learning the Master Thief type of sneaking in an error friendly quest...that is, one you can survive your mistakes in. Then, as you get better, ramp up the danger of being uncovered. All of the below is solo/duo; sneaking is actually a lot easier to learn with fewer people, since it's becomes easier to figure out your mistakes when you're the only one making them.

Water Works
Go in there with a 20ish Hide/Move Silently at, say, level 4. Get used to watching for patrol paths, and get used to the move-stop-wait-move rhythm of the kobolds. Try slipping out of your Move Silently gear to drop your move silent score while still keeping your Hide gear up...see if you can use that to pull investigating monsters singly away from the group, then do away with them around a corner.

Giant Caves (East and the North one closest to the Ruins of Threnal)
Work this one with a 35ish Hide/MS and level 8 to 10. Lot of tight corridors, monsters with varying spot scores, diverse terrain. Get good enough to slip up on the chest and get the l00t without alerting the giants (*Really* teaches you about timing and tracking monster sight lines and hearing distances).

Purge The Fallen Shrine
Work this with, say, a 40+, and it's dicey as there are multiple tight spots in which you may be uncovered. See if you can get regular at getting to the alcove chest and l00ting it. This is probably a lvl 10+ area to try, and even then you're going to do a bit of dying getting good at it. There are no doors you have to worry about getting opened, so you're practicing avoidance and finding gaps in the sometimes tight groups of monsters.

Black Anvil Mines
Level 12+ probably (I did it when the level cap was 10, but it was a bit painful. Still, learned a lot...), same hide requirements. This one's a toughy, because you've got several doors to open, a key to steal, and mixes of tough casters + elementals to deal with. Have a good ranged weapon that will take down elementals, then see if you can slip in, kill a few here and there, and get all 15 pieces of adamantine ore.



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SableShadow
10-14-2007, 08:19 PM
V) Rogue Builds

Note: I only link with permission. Please let me know if you'd like a particular build linked. This guide is for builds taking the majority of their levels in rogue; hence, the only builds you'll see listed here are rogue primary ones. This is in no way meant as derogatory toward non-rogue high builds, it's just a matter of focus. Also, note I've added a small red star (*) in front of builds that I know have been played to the level cap; if you've played a build without a red star to the level cap, please let me know so I can red star it.

(*)Leesa 2.0 The Deathdealer Rogue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115937) by Impaqt
Rogue */2 Fighter/2 Ranger
Note: Impaqt's tried and true Drow build, with a lot of playtime behind it. Strong attack bonus, AC, and skills on a Greater Two Weapon Fighter. Excellent example of a heavily multiclassed rogue that doesn't break any of the core competencies of the class.

The Potent Rogue: A Dwarven Melee Rogue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124692) by Impaqt
Rogue */2 Fighter
Note: Solid strength based dwarven rogue, 32pt build. Great saves and hit points.

(*)The Ultimate Rogue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=153589) by Impaqt
Rogue */2 Barbarian/1 Ranger
Note: Impaqt's Dwacrobat. Slashing spec'd, strength based, gtwf Dwarf build. "This build Cost me a TON to Cap. but it is by far the most fun I've had playing this game." - Impaqt

(*)Lessa 2.0 'Holy' Deathdealer Variant (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117341) by Impaqt
Rogue */2 Fighter/2 Paladin
Note: Impaqt's extension of his Deathdealer, swapping the Ranger levels for Paladin. Scary synergies with Drow as the race; keeps the dex based focus of the original Deathdealer.

The 30-Strength Two-Weapon Fighting Battle Rogue w/ Full Rogue Skills (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122887) by Dworkin of Amber
Rogue */2 Fighter/2 Paladin
Notes: Good human, strength based rogue build. Good skills, greater two weapon fighting.

(*)The Penitent Rogue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119788) by Rameses
Rogue */1 Cleric
Note: Ram's current build. If I were to reroll Brenna, I'd start with something like this build. An innovative Classic Rogue build with tons of skillpoints, strong combat abilities, and some very nice party features (11 DVs at level 14, anyone?).

The Cabal Crusader (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124138) by sigtrent
Drow Rogue */3 Paladin build capable of handling the infamous Cabal Elite Chest Trap.

Calamity Jane (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=123134) by sigtrent
Halfling Rogue */4 Fighter/2 Paladin Repeating XBow.

Halfling Acrobat (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121556) by sigtrent
Halfling Rogue */2 Fighter/2 Paladin

(*)Precision Rogue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121639) by Snike
Elf Rogue */2 Fighter, Precision Dex-Based GTWF

(*)Killstealer (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130560) by Fennario
Drow Pure Rogue w/ ITWF and UMD

(*)Kiranselie (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142970) by rizzn
Drow Pure Rogue w/ TWF, Quickdraw, and UMD. Classic rogue, dex-based, along the lines I'd build Brenna if I'd gone single-class, 32pt rogue.

(*)Preying Mantis (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960) by The Phenx
Rogue */2 Monk
Note: 14 rogue/2 monk Dragonmarked Halfling Acrobat II Strength based staff user.


Back to top (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401)

SableShadow
10-14-2007, 08:21 PM
Greensteel moved to the Compendium (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Notes_from_a_Dancing_Rogue:Greensteel#Greensteel)

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VII) Rogue: Specialty


I'm not listing all the pre-reqs, nor all the bennies. If you want to look those up, roll a level 1 rogue on any server and select "Show Unavailable" under enhancements. :)




Way of the Thief-Acrobat

Love this one.
Very nice for finesse builds, because you're probably dipping deep into the dex enhancements anyway...plus, speedboost is the best of the rogue boosts for combat (imho), so...since you're getting it anyway, your Way pre-reqs are pretty cheap compared to the other two.

The staff speed bonus is nice, but unless you pick up a finessable staff (Shining Crescents, raid l00t from Titan) you'll probably want to be a strength build to take advantage of it...though there's something to be said for having specialized staves for low AC targets (Shroud portal beaters come to mind...)

The +4 total balance/tumble/jump is very cool, particularly if they enable you to hit critical threasholds (say, 36 for tumble...or enough jump to clear giants...).

Showtime is pretty nice, even worth expending a speed boost charge for the extra +10 tumble/jump/balance on occasion (most often for that little extra bit of Jump), or for the +4 dex bonus.

The trip immunity, while not total (been knocked down in Titan w/ and flung by air eles in Reaver) is very sweet.

The best thing about Acrobat, though, is the passive bonus to movement speed: you can get into trouble and out again very, very quickly. I was very pleasantly surprised by just how much that extra 10% matters in a lot of quests.




Way of the Assassin

Like this one.
The insta-kill is pretty sweet, but requires some twitch and items to pull off. Some mobs are very hard to Assassinate once they're agro'd, because they throw cleaves and such that clip you while you're moving in.

A DC 30+ Assassinate is pretty much required for level 16+ quests...a 30 won't ensure a kill, but hits pretty often (say, ~75%). Assassinate hits not just the mob you selected, but also whatever is in your weapon sets collision area...my personal best is three smallish (maybe four...Eladrin sphere forms in Running with Devils) mobs that have been bunched up by web/solid fog/whatever. Dual rapiers seem do *not* have a bigger collision area than dual daggers, rapier + ss, etc...I used to labor under this misapprehension until I tested out the various arcs on one of the demon portals.

While it isn't in the pre-reqs, Faster Sneaking is very, very good with this Way...I'd go so far as to say "Get Faster Sneaking III+ and good sneaking striders or go home." Being able to move into and out of position between monster attacks, being able to sneak faster than monsters can move while Assassinate is recharging, etc are very, very valuable things to have.

Some tips on actually putting it all together:



Monsters get an increasing Spot check modifier the longer you stay in front of them. Stand there long enough and they WILL pass. As best as I can tell, there is no visual indication of when they attempt their checks. So, don't wait around in their line of sight. This is also a good reason to also equip your Hide and MS items EVEN if you are above the threshold of being seen (if you're having inventory issues, I recommend a Ring of Shadows- it's only +10 to both, but it's one slot). Being much higher than their Spot modifier gives you more time to move in before their situational modifier is high enough to catch you out. Faster sneaking is also a plus here for lessened time in their Line of Sight.

If you move too close, you'll bump them and your chance to assassinate is gone. Knowing the length of your attack arc is pretty important here. A secondary note, some monsters 'sensing zone' seems to be larger than the circle at their feet.

What does that mean? It means you can assassinate Johanie (I have) or any other monster from the front. You just have to move in quickly (before the increasing modifier catches up to your Hide score), and pull the trigger without touching him.

If you are having trouble assassinating from the front:
1. Get a higher MS/Hide value (item, GH, etc.)
2. Move faster on approach
3. Find your 'sweet spot' for distance.

Happy hunting.


The bonus to stealth and bluff were also very cool; with Assassin spec'd in, and good stealth gear, I was able to complete Monestary of the Scorpion elite with regularity...without killing a single mob (end boss died to "Misadventure"). Without this Way, I always end up having to clear the non-reds away from the end room before I can stealth the puzzle.

The bonus to sneak attack and crit confirmation keep poisons useful, and while I used to think the poisons themselves were kinda meh at the higher levels, here's some data on their utility in the Vale of Twilight:


Well, i went ahead and grabbed Assassin 1 on Paxa

I can tell you this: the poison works.

I went into the vale from the main entrance, and engaged 3 orange named:
1- Tony the Tiger
2- Jukree the Spider
3- Pukru the Ogre Magi


After dispatching his ogre guards, i jumped on Tony. On purpose, i decided to drop my usual weapons and equiped my dual GT of disruption weapons, to make sure he lives long enough to test the poison. I used the poison that stops spellcasting.

He opened with a force missile. I started swinging at him, and saw in the initial swings 2 blue "save" icon (and a few immunity from the disruption). He landed me a melf arrow. And then nothing. He just stood there, then moved away, and then back, as if not sure what to do, but he didnt cast a thing. I switched to my usual killer weapons and finished him.


Jukree: Jukree just kept having immunity symbols. Duh, spiders are immune to poison.

Pukru: I attacked the blue ogre and he didnt cast a thing. He stood there, swung his sword a few times. He then moved underground.
When he came back, i activated the poison again, and he didnt cast anything. I very very slowly took him out using bad weapons, and he didnt cast a single spell the entire fight.


Conclusion: yes, the poison work.
Conclusion 2: yes, i realise that currently, caster mobs dont live long enough for it to make any difference. Or are immune to poison like in Runing with the Devils.





Way of the Mechanic

This one is good while leveling and gearing up, less so at the cap. I'd like to see the devs give a boost to its elemental resistances, say a +6 or +10 instead of a +2, plus a passive construct/undead damaging bonus.

While leveling, you end up seeing a wide variety of quest levels and don't necessarily have all the top tier gear...while I'm a big believer in "Rogue as DPS", there's no reason *not* to take this Way until you get your gear and trap skills up...the DPS of a rogue is in the class levels anyway, so there's no reason you can't be a Mechanic and still throw down with the best of 'em.




Back to top (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401)

MrCow
10-14-2007, 10:32 PM
Underwater Action Items
As Feather Fall items above. You typically have a lower con score than other melee classes

Swim is an STR skill, not a CON skill. The only skill in the game that uses CON to boost it is the Concentration skill.


Shield Wand DC 22

Not sure if you want to add or mention the fact that some chests do drop wands that are above level 1, such as a shield wand casting at 5th level (DC 28).




By the way, this guide is very well written. I hope others can get a good deal of the knowledge you put in here to help them down the road.

SableShadow
10-14-2007, 10:44 PM
...

Edited...thank you! :)

Boldrin
10-15-2007, 07:01 AM
Recently finished up a rogue that I am very happy with, Drow 10 Rogue / 2 ftr/ 2 Pally. Strength based. End stats are 26 Str, 18 Con, 26 Dex, 24 Int, 8 Wis, and 24 Cha. Self buffed UMD is 37, 237HPs, 42 Standing AC Unbuffed with shield, Uses rapiers and shortswords and has max to hit and damage enhancements for being drow. By far he has become my favorite character to play. His saving throws are insane because of the +7 to all saves for his pally levels and the Boots of the Innocent. Started off 2/2/2 and ten finished him off in rogue to maximize skill points and ate 2 +2 tomes when I started him at 1st level. Int and Con.

smodge13
10-15-2007, 07:42 AM
great guide, a few things my rogue things my rogue has stuck by since day 1

AC
Stick to the magic numbers
the magic numbers are your dex bonus + armour = 16 (16 is total AC of MFP/KDS and is the highest acheivable AC off armour without way to increase the armours max dex bonus)

therefore:
if dex < 22: (find a way to improve it, with a dex this low you will never max out your armour, all IMO all rogues end game should have at least 22 dex)
if dex = 22: go on many dragon runs until you get the kundarak delving suit
if 22 < dex <= 27, 1. get the delving suit like before AND the belt from the desert that gives +2 to your max dax bonus on an item (amazingly this is the easier of the 2 options
if dex > 27: get yourself some armoured bracers try and make your dex + armoured bracers = 16
therefore the higher the dex you have, the lower the armoured bracers need to be to make it worthwhile to wear robes instead of armour, if they dont hit 16, your probably better going for the KDS

ITEMS:
Heroism Potions/Scrolls: every rogue should carry these, period, +2 to almost every roll is always handy

Planar Gird: something every rogue should have imo, +4 to hit, +4 to saves +4 to all skills for 11 minutes, their hard to get but worth it.

Backstabbers Gloves: (obtained from the crucible) The two weapon fighters best freind gives +3 backstabbing and bluff +11, drop that sneak attack bonus weapon in your offhand and replace it with something else (destruction/deception or a stat damaging of some-sort works well)

Minos Legens: new helmet heavy fort + toughness for more hp, absolutely everyone has use for one of these, its just a matter of whether they have the inventory slots for it.

Rogue Types - you forgot the "Agro" allocator (works semi effectively but not my cup of tea) - maximises subtle backstabber,bluff, diplomacy, deception items. this build uses all of these abilities to deal constant sneak attack damage, when agro switches to them they hit bluff/diplomacy/improved feint and hopes for a lucky hit with the deception item this rogue can keep a single monster sneak attacked well after they gain agro and usually will kill it before they run out of all these abilities.

Weapons Affects - wounding/Puncturing, wounding deals 1 con damage every hit, puncturing deals 1d6 on every crit and with imp crit + rapier it crits on a 15, therefore 25% of the time ur dealing 1d6 con damage, and the bigger the enemies hp the more con it has, this is a great way to "deal damage" without actually getting agro, as every 2 pts of con you take the enemy loses its HD (some beleive HD = CR, it doesnt but the numbers are usually pretty close together) in health which doesnt actually count towards enemy agro at all, unfortunately this doesnt work on rednamed enemies.

hope some of this helps, rogues are my fav class and i couldnt help but comment.

Edit: i jsu tlooked at it and noticed i wrote quite a lengthy post, i apologize if i overstepped jsut someone merely commenting

cforce
10-15-2007, 11:50 AM
SS, let me start by saying this is an excellent guide! Good, in-depth coverage of several key 'rogue theory' topics, and the most easily accessible explanation I've seen on 'overdamage' and why it's more important to understanding your DPS than simply "use TWF" or "more points in STR".

The only point I'd argue is recommending a minimum INT. I have a bit of a radical view of this, but I never feel like 2-4 points of INT will make or break a rogue's core skills; after all, we're talking about a shift of only 1-2 skill points in a skill point totals where we shoot for numbers in the 40's to 60's. I think I'd rather see slightly softer language like, "If you're building your rogue with less than 10 INT, you should make sure you plan to spend some resources on boosting your Search and Disable skills -- Skill Focus Feats, Way of the Mechanic, and most/all of the individual Search and Disable enhancements should probably be in your build plan."

Overall, great work!

SableShadow
10-17-2007, 07:33 PM
Thanks, guys! I've taken a swing at my stat recommendations; see if they make more sense now.

Also added a rough precise on using the sneakster's skills; take a swing through and see if it makes sense?

I know I need an enhancements section, but I want to fill out the feats and gear sections a bit more first.

Also, what about the guide format? I need to research the bboard code and see if I can put local anchors in for better navigation.

lucien123
10-19-2007, 06:14 AM
By far the BEST guide I have ever seen, anywhere! It is well thought out, informative, easy to understand, and obviously written by someone who loves this class.

Impaqt
10-20-2007, 07:06 PM
Perfect Example of why a Guide COntest needs 3-4 Weeks instead of 1.

I still havent read it all, but love what I see so far.

One comment re: Smodes Dex/AC THoughts...

Never forget to count the amazing flexibility of Robes. QUite frankly, the Hot Swappability makes up for a good 2-3 points of AC. Nothing else in the game can carry so many different enhancemnts.. Resists, Feats, Fortification, Clickies, and its an immediate swap. No Lag.

the KDS is nice, but limits this hotswap.

Borror0
10-20-2007, 07:44 PM
Ok, first, nice guide. Didn't read it all because it's HUGE!!!

Second, we got these at the wiki:


Starting a Rogue (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Starting_a_Rogue)
Rogue tactics (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Rogue_tactics)
Rogue equipmment (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Rogue_equipment)

Think you might help? :)

Third, good luck on the contest, if you do not win... they got a problem.
Awesome guide.

Shade
10-20-2007, 08:10 PM
Wish I could be a fan of your philosophy but I can't in the current game.

Rogues are not useful melee combatants. There enhancements and feats are just too weak to support actual useful contributions to anything remotely challenging. A rogue can, at best expect to deal about 10% as much damage in melee as a barbarian... Pretty much ignorable.

As such I believe the rogues should focus elsewhere. Traps and locks should be your number one priority - it's the only reason your getting recruited in that party, so show the leader some respect for what he took you there for and do your job.

If the party wants to do a quest quick and run thru the traps - that should not change your outlook on disabling them. You never know if something might go wrong and they need to go back thru with low/no buffs where the traps might be an issue.. And if your party is not XP capped, you should be doing anyways to help improve the XP on the quest - because your definitely not the one contributing to things like conquest.

So you miss out on a couple battles where your not needed anyways, so what.. The rest of the party will appreciate it more if you helped them get more xp or loot by going off to complete those objectives while the rest of the party handles the monsters.

Impaqt
10-20-2007, 08:55 PM
Wish I could be a fan of your philosophy but I can't in the current game.

Rogues are not useful melee combatants. There enhancements and feats are just too weak to support actual useful contributions to anything remotely challenging. A rogue can, at best expect to deal about 10% as much damage in melee as a barbarian... Pretty much ignorable.

As such I believe the rogues should focus elsewhere. Traps and locks should be your number one priority - it's the only reason your getting recruited in that party, so show the leader some respect for what he took you there for and do your job.

If the party wants to do a quest quick and run thru the traps - that should not change your outlook on disabling them. You never know if something might go wrong and they need to go back thru with low/no buffs where the traps might be an issue.. And if your party is not XP capped, you should be doing anyways to help improve the XP on the quest - because your definitely not the one contributing to things like conquest.

So you miss out on a couple battles where your not needed anyways, so what.. The rest of the party will appreciate it more if you helped them get more xp or loot by going off to complete those objectives while the rest of the party handles the monsters.

This is one of the most ignorant things ever written about Rogues on this Forum. I'm shocked anyone would spew such misinformation.

10% the damage of a Barbarian? Thats insane.... Any competant rogue can hit for an extra 5-7d6 on EVERY hit.... its like having a Greater XXX Bane attached to Every swing.

I shoudlnt say anythign else or I'll have Infraction points come monday.

SableShadow
10-20-2007, 09:36 PM
Shade, the above is not a purely theoretical exercise; these tactics and philosophies have been built up over the life of the game, all playing this class.

If I didn't regularly complete with the barbarians I team with in kill count, I wouldn't have bothered to post on the topic. Note I'm not talking about waiting until the monster is nearly dead, then taking the shot. I'm talking about applying the strategies and concepts above, putting out damage throughout the melee, and taking out monsters. Of the melees, sometimes the fighter's the high scorer, sometimes the barb, sometime me...it's me often enough that people notice and comment on it.

The class *is* just that potentially powerful, but is *not* easy to play.

Turbine has reduced some of the player skill requirements by the creation of the Subtle Backstabber enhancement, changes to some weapons powers (notably of deception, backstabbing, and agro reducing weapons/items), and changes to the ways some of the skills work (notably Diplomacy), but the class is arguably harder to play effectively than, say, a fighter or barbarian. If they continue in this vein (putting in things that reduce the skill level required to play the class effectively), the class will eventually be as easy to play, as popular, and as accepted as any other.

Rogue sneak attack damage is cyclic, not flat like the damage of the other classes. A rogue that understands how the cycle works, and plans for it through wise selection of build/gear/weapons/tactics, *will* be in competition with the barbarian for total damage output *and* for killcount.

Note also that while I'm an advocate for the philosophy of 'rogues are dps', I go to great pains to point out that, as rogue's care the traps & locks class, they should be able to fulfill that role in the party. As a rule, I'll ask the party leader if he wants run-through traps disarmed for the extra xp or whatnot; my goal in a party, as stated in the philosophy, is to help it complete quests, get l00t, and gain xp by whatever means are most efficient. Sometimes that means going back and disabling redundant traps. More often, though, it's putting monsters into the ground.

It seems to me you may have read the section on philosophy, found that it did not match up with your experiences, and arrived at the conclusions you did. I invite you to read the guide in its entirety, particularly the recommendations with regard to combat and tactics, before dismissing it. :)

Agarwaen
10-20-2007, 10:12 PM
I am shocked that a "founder" thinks rogues only do 10% of the damage of a barbarian. That is not even close to reality, and I don't understand how an experienced player could play for so long with such an incorrect view of the game's mechanics.

Borror0
10-20-2007, 10:48 PM
Shade... you overestimate Barbarians... once more. Let's take a look at numbers.

Barbarian


I'll take Axer as the barbarian, sounds good?

I'll go with 42 Str. Sort of average.

I'll give him a +2 Flaming Great Axe of Greater Bane, sounds good?

So, let's see that:

To-hit: 14 + 15 Strength + -8 Power attack + 6 Weapon + 1 Axe Attack I +4 GH = 32/32/37/42
Damage: 15 Strength + 2 Axe Damage II + 6 Weapon + 16 Power Attack + 6.5 Base weapon damage = 45.5 + 3.5 Flaming + 10.5 Greater Bane
Attack per minute: 92 attack/minute or 23 round/minute
Mobs' AC: 38
Crits: 17-20/x3

I'll also assume Bloodstone.



Attack one and two

11/20*59.5 + 4/20*156.5 = 64.025


Attack three

19/20*59.5 + 4/20*156.5 = 90.205


Attack four

19/20*59.5 + 4/20*156.5 = 90,025

Total per round: 308.46
Total for a minute: 7094.58


Rogue

Ok, I'll take a rogue build I made for a friend. Pretty much the most DPS based you can have. If any rogue expert could advise me on the enhancement, that would be great. I've not played the build, so pretty hard to judge for someone who made it only to level 5 with his rogues.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Kuei
Level 14 True Neutral Drow Male
(1 Fighter \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 136
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 16
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 9 10
Dexterity 16 26
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 16 16
Wisdom 12 12
Charisma 15 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 14
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device IV
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III

I'll give him a +2 Flaming Rapier of Greater Bane and a +2 Flaming Shortsword of Greater Bane, sounds good?

I'll give him +6 Dex and +6 Str item and Backstabber's Glove.

To-hit : 10 + 11 Dex + 6 Weapon + 1 Drow Melee Attack I + 4 GH - 2 TWF + 2 Backstabber's Glove + 2 Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II + 2 Flanking = 36/36/36/41/41/46
Damage: 3 Strength + 6 Weapon + 4 Rogue Sneak Attack Training II + 3.5 Base weapon damage + 3 Backstabber's Glove = 19.5 + 3.5 Flaming + 10.5 Greater Bane + 24.5 Sneak Attack
Attack per minute: 96 attack/minute or 24 round/minute
Mobs' AC: 38
Crits: 15-20/x2 Rapier and 17-20/x2 Shortsword



Damage:

He hits everything on a 2, so...

Rapier: 14/20*58 + 6/20*77.5 = 63.85
Shortsword: 16/20*58 + 4/20*77.5 = 61.9

Rapier: 4 attacks
Shortword: 2 attacks


Total per round: 379.2
Total for a minute: 9100.8


Conclusion:

9100.8/7094.58*100= 128.3&#37;

I don't see it anywhere near 10%:rolleyes:

If anyone wants to tell me how to upgrade the two builds or see any error in my calculation, tell me and I'll fix it. No where near an expert of Barbs and rogues.

I'd also mention Glancing Blows. They do occur, but that doesn't mean that the rogue will fall under 10%. ;) And anyway, they do the traps nad open you locks. Why complain. ;)

EDIT: I've forgotten to add WF:Piercing to the rogue's to-hit. Doesn't change the numbers anyway...

Turial
10-20-2007, 10:57 PM
Wonderful, well though out, and complete guide to one of the hardest to play classes in the game. You should be proud.

SableShadow
10-20-2007, 11:01 PM
Borror0, I'd actually pick up SB IV, skip the sneak attack damage enhancements to fund the change, then just use +5 of Greater Bane, no need to bother with the flaming.

Frankly, I'd rather have of Deception for sneak attackable targets; gives you more wiggle room when you eventually pull agro. Some rogues swear by puncturing and greater banes...personally, I use greater banes for stuff that can't be sneak attacked, of Deception on everything else, or mix of Deception and Backstabbing weapons.

Thank you for the quick analysis. :)

Borror0
10-20-2007, 11:12 PM
Borror0, I'd actually pick up SB IV, skip the sneak attack damage enhancements to fund the change, then just use +5 of Greater Bane, no need to bother with the flaming.

Yeah, had the same thoughts about SB IV once I saw 128&#37;. But, too lazy to change it. I could also remove Critical Accuracy, waste APs too. I'll see on that later. As long as the build (feats and starting abilities) are fine, the rest is minor.

Glad he's OK, made this guy in 5 minutes...:eek:

That note was more to Shade, as I know he'll comment. I'll change the rogue when Shade will complain.

Thanks for your imput Sable.:)

SableShadow
10-20-2007, 11:18 PM
As long as the build (feats and starting abilities) are fine, the rest is minor.

Bingo! When you're talking rogue damage, you're talking sneak attack damage, and that damage is all in the class levels.

All you need is something that can overcome the 3/4 attack bonus and connect, and then manage the agro. :)


Thanks for your imput Sable. :)

And thank you very much for yours. :)

Borror0
10-20-2007, 11:25 PM
Bingo! When you're talking rogue damage, you're talking sneak attack damage, and that damage is all in the class levels.

Yeah. that's why I went 13/1. I just hope they'll lower the prereq of STWF!


And then manage the agro. :)

Hardest part.. ;) I was really found of tumbling around and hiding behing on my rogue. Again, I've only reached lv 5 and got bored of being squishy... that was 10 months ago...:eek:


And thank you very much for yours. :)

My pleasure. I have homework to do and..:rolleyes:

Just to add about +5 Greater Banes... I just took +2 Flaming because they were more common.... and thus cheaper.;)

Agarwaen
10-21-2007, 12:29 AM
Managing agro isn't that hard with the exception of undead and other non-intelligent creatures. Just step back, hit diplo, step in and resume the sneak attacking.

Personally, I like the 2 fighter/2 ranger/10 rogue build: you give up 2d6 sneak damage, but get 12 extra hps (or more with Ftr Tough Enh I), 1 more BAB, and a handful of feats which can include GTWF at level 14 if taking Fighter as your last level. There is a great breakdown on the build in the rogue forum.

Thank you for that analysis, Borror0! It was most enlightening.

Mhykke
10-21-2007, 06:59 PM
Wish I could be a fan of your philosophy but I can't in the current game.

Rogues are not useful melee combatants. There enhancements and feats are just too weak to support actual useful contributions to anything remotely challenging. A rogue can, at best expect to deal about 10% as much damage in melee as a barbarian... Pretty much ignorable.

As such I believe the rogues should focus elsewhere. Traps and locks should be your number one priority - it's the only reason your getting recruited in that party, so show the leader some respect for what he took you there for and do your job.

If the party wants to do a quest quick and run thru the traps - that should not change your outlook on disabling them. You never know if something might go wrong and they need to go back thru with low/no buffs where the traps might be an issue.. And if your party is not XP capped, you should be doing anyways to help improve the XP on the quest - because your definitely not the one contributing to things like conquest.

So you miss out on a couple battles where your not needed anyways, so what.. The rest of the party will appreciate it more if you helped them get more xp or loot by going off to complete those objectives while the rest of the party handles the monsters.

Don't think you're grouping w/ the right rogues then. Rogues don't have to be trapmonkeys.

It's fairly easy to build a rogue to focus on traps. More difficult to build a rogue that's effective in melee while still being a reliable trapsmith. 10% as effective? Hardly. Again, grouping w/ the wrong rogues. An effective melee rogue is highly deadly especially when paired w/ that dps barb. That's a ton of damage output on a mob. And that rogue would get more than just 10% of that barb's kill #'s.

I've seen the OP'er outkill many a dps build. Telling sableshadow to focus on traps only is borderline criminal. If all players were as proficient as sableshadow, the game would be much easier than it already is.

VonBek
10-22-2007, 01:00 PM
Thank you very much for the work that went into this. GJ

Rameses
10-23-2007, 09:45 PM
From my experience Diplomacy works on most Undead.

Borror0
10-23-2007, 09:50 PM
From my experience Diplomacy works on most Undead.

Yup, most low level undead are too stupid for it, but soon they are.

LeLoric
10-24-2007, 09:33 PM
Great Guide sable glad to see someone put in words most of the stuff i live by every day but too lazy to write up hehe.

1 thing that might be mentioned but its rare enough to come across is blinding effects.

blinding shield clickies are great if you are a sword and boarder, but the penultimate effect for this is sirrocco.

a strength based elven rogue with longsword enhancements using this and treason doesnt need to manage aggro at all its charge in blind everythign and watch em fall

I do somewhat agree with your post on puncturing but i do find that burst of puncturing rapiers are worth it. You just dont try to kill em only with con dmg but factor the loss of hitpoints into your total dmg and it gets quite insane. Should be called burst of megamaiming or something similar. Ive two shot many mobs on elite in orchard with my holy burst of puncturing rapier.

once again very nice guide though

binnsr
10-25-2007, 03:12 PM
Being the Assassin means, for a rogue, getting close enough to land the first strike undetected. To the concepts of Early Warning above, we’ll add Sight, Hearing, and then add a bit about spiders and oozes/slimes, which seem to smell you.Oozes, slimes and spiders have 'tremorsense (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tremorsense_&#37;28SRD_Special_Ability%29)' allowing them to pinpoint your location regardless of your Hide or Move Silently skills..



Lessa 2.0 'Holy' Deathdealer Variant (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117341) by Impaqt
Rogue */2 Fighter/2 Paladin
Note: Impaqt's extension of his Deathdealer, swapping the Ranger levels for Paladin. Scary synergies with Drow as the race; keeps the dex based focus of the original Deathdealer.

I have a capped rogue very similar to this build (originally built under the lvl10 cap, so my fighter 2 was taken at lvl10 rather than at 14, so I don't have Greater Two Weapon Fighting). So similar, in fact, that the changes he's got listed there for her nearly mirror what I would do to Level were I to reroll him. The original build post has long since been eaten by the forums, but I call him my Combat Engineer for his versatility. I only say this so you can add the 'star' next to this build -- very solid in my book.

Rameses
10-25-2007, 06:19 PM
Brenna don't hate me, I had to vote for Rowanheal: now that she a guildie.

Hvymetal
10-25-2007, 08:18 PM
Yet another great guide!!!!

Shade, I know you are the Barbarian buff around here but have you ever actually played a Rogue? I am talking like past level 4 and not a build with 2 or so Rogue levels.

I know you know what you are talking about when it comes to Barbs but it is painfully obvious you know absolutely nothing about Rogues. A lot of the caluculations on Barbs DPS hinges on crits, guess what.... if it can be critted it can be sneak attacked. A well built and equiped (with at least equipment, tomes, ect. on par with the Barb) can nearly keep up with if not outpace a Barb in DPS. Many the times I have to check my attacks because I am pulling the aggro of the Barb. If I am pulling the aggro then the Barb is being outdamaged..... And we do all this without having to have a nanny bot constantly sitting over our red bar like a mother hen because most of us have learned how not to pull the aggro of of the "melee" types so you Barbs can FEEL like your the king of DPS:)

SableShadow
10-25-2007, 08:23 PM
Brenna don't hate me, I had to vote for Rowanheal: now that she a guildie.

lol! Lot of good guides, man. No worries. I voted cforce, myself. ;)

Pellegro
10-25-2007, 08:42 PM
great guide! well written, comprehensive, organized ... excellent work.

thanks for all the hard work you obviously put into it. it made me want to go roll a rogue!

Kistilan
10-25-2007, 09:14 PM
lol! Lot of good guides, man. No worries. I voted cforce, myself. ;)

Charlatan!!!! :D j/k'n Brenna.

You know your guide is going to win the top prize. I envy the smell of those leather bound books and signature's small indentation upon the page, but those can be purchased -- I truly just want the title as one of the ten. As if we all could be one of The Nine Riders.... One of the 10 Writers... But where is The Writer? Where is the King? Where is Gondor when Rohan Calls...

It's almost like Lord of the Rings! (http://www.lotro.com)


Three Rogues for the elvish bard-kings under the sky
Seven Rogues for the dwarven chanter-lords in their halls of stone
Nine for mortal assamite ~ Doomed to die
One for their Rogue Lord on his Rogue throne
In the land of Brenna Wavekin, where the shadows lie


~~~~ .oO&#186;Oo.oO&#186;Oo -&#166;- oO&#186;Oo.oO&#186;Oo. ~~~~


One Rogue to unlock them all ~ One Rogue to rend them
One Rogue to stalk them all and in stealthiness, blind them
In the land of Brenna Wavekin, where the shadows lie

SableShadow
10-25-2007, 10:40 PM
Charlatan!!!! :D j/k'n Brenna.

You know your guide is going to win the top prize. I envy the smell of those leather bound books and signature's small indentation upon the page, but those can be purchased -- I truly just want the title as one of the ten. As if we all could be one of The Nine Riders.... One of the 10 Writers... But where is The Writer? Where is the King? Where is Gondor when Rohan Calls...

It's almost like Lord of the Rings! (http://www.lotro.com)


Three Rogues for the elvish bard-kings under the sky
Seven Rogues for the dwarven chanter-lords in their halls of stone
Nine for mortal assamite ~ Doomed to die
One for their Rogue Lord on his Rogue throne
In the land of Brenna Wavekin, where the shadows lie


~~~~ .oOºOo.oOºOo -¦- oOºOo.oOºOo. ~~~~


One Rogue to rule them all ~ One Rogue to find them
One Rogue to bring them all and in their rogueness binds them
In the land of Brenna Wavekin, where the shadows lie

:eek:

Dunno about that; I'd like to see the pre-contest guides (with much more long term effort behind them) take first and second...just want the mention, myself.

Totally stealing that poem, though. Thank you! :D

SableShadow
10-25-2007, 10:49 PM
Oozes, slimes and spiders have 'tremorsense (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tremorsense_%28SRD_Special_Ability%29)' allowing them to pinpoint your location regardless of your Hide or Move Silently skills..


I have a capped rogue very similar to this build (originally built under the lvl10 cap, so my fighter 2 was taken at lvl10 rather than at 14, so I don't have Greater Two Weapon Fighting). So similar, in fact, that the changes he's got listed there for her nearly mirror what I would do to Level were I to reroll him. The original build post has long since been eaten by the forums, but I call him my Combat Engineer for his versatility. I only say this so you can add the 'star' next to this build -- very solid in my book.


Excellent! Thank you very much; I've star'd the build. On tremorsense: also good feedback. I suspect the mechanism used in DDO somehow uses a variation of the agro + spot mechanisms used by regular monsters rather than the additional sense mechanic (Occam's Razor)...I have no evidence, however, and I haven't devised a test yet to definitely prove/disprove my suspicion, though. :(

Aeneas
10-26-2007, 09:56 AM
You left out a decent rogue type. The intimidator.

You hurt my feelings shade, you really did. :p

Moths is not useless in undead content!

binnsr
10-26-2007, 10:29 AM
Excellent! Thank you very much; I've star'd the build. On tremorsense: also good feedback. I suspect the mechanism used in DDO somehow uses a variation of the agro + spot mechanisms used by regular monsters rather than the additional sense mechanic (Occam's Razor)...I have no evidence, however, and I haven't devised a test yet to definitely prove/disprove my suspicion, though. :(

I'm pretty sure that the mechanism used in DDO for tremorsense is to jack the spider/ooze/slime Listen and/or Spot skills through the roof but have no real proof of that.

SableShadow
10-31-2007, 01:04 PM
Added a small blurb on attack bonus to clarify some of my views.

Loreraven
11-05-2007, 09:01 PM
I'd like to say nice job on your guide. In the 29 years I've played D&D, I never played a Rogue. Since trying out DDO this past spring, I've tried out this amazing class, and has become my favorite. Thanks for you experience and pointers. You have my vote and Good Luck!
Loreraven {Tobious}

Snioc
11-13-2007, 03:23 PM
What a really nice bit of work. I see a few things I could add, but then everyone could be me!


:::SALUTE:::


Snioc
Shadow Alliance

Halfling Rog/Lvl 14


Thelansis

binnsr
11-13-2007, 03:25 PM
What a really nice bit of work. I see a few things I could add, but then everyone could be me!


<giant-pseudo-signature snipped out>

no, I'm pretty sure we'd all still be ourselves..

Joven
11-13-2007, 05:10 PM
[QUOTE=Shade;1398095]Wish I could be a fan of your philosophy but I can't in the current game.

Rogues are not useful melee combatants. There enhancements and feats are just too weak to support actual useful contributions to anything remotely challenging. A rogue can, at best expect to deal about 10% as much damage in melee as a barbarian... Pretty much ignorable.

My Rogue always has 2 or 3rd in kill count I can stand toe to toe ( well not stand I am a dex combat fighter ) but My rogue is more useful to a party than a barb any day.

To say we arnt useful is just rude. Me and a fighter together when I dont have agro I deal between 25-50pts of damage non crits ( some times higher or lower) and if I have agro 10-25 damage non crits Ac of 32 unbuffed. with my paralizer and +2 acid rapier of backstab5. I jump to the back of the crowd take out casters and then meet the fighter in the middle and sence I dont need a cleric as much as others I do tend to live. Oh madstone rage is pimp other than cant cast but just have madstone rod ready.


I love this article good job

A.T.R.

Snioc
11-13-2007, 05:30 PM
no, I'm pretty sure we'd all still be ourselves..

Well you must very important to tell me how unimportant I am, thank you mighty BB King. Anyway, it is a very nice guide I feel you should have gotten 1st, the community is well served and I hope you update it. Thanks again.


S- (So as not to offend)

www.shadowalliance.com

binnsr
11-13-2007, 05:47 PM
Well you must very important to tell me how unimportant I am, thank you mighty BB King.

Please tell me again how you became unimportant by my saying that we wouldn't all be come 'you' if you were to share your knowledge?

SableShadow
11-13-2007, 11:53 PM
Please tell me again how you became unimportant by my saying that we wouldn't all be come 'you' if you were to share your knowledge?

I think he's just kidding around, bin. :)

Anyone should feel free to express how they'd build *and* play a rogue better in this thread. Keeping in mind, there are many ways to build a rogue...problem is, the build options selected and the playstyle have to match.

Me? I'm a fanatic on sneak skills, dex, and attack bonus. A lot of high-end, experienced rogues tell me these matter... not so much.

So....give me your critiques, but include the details on playstyle. The class is generally considered 'less than optimal' but tell me how you play it so that's not the case, so I can work it into this guide. ;)

The only thing I ask is, don't hand me a build or strat optimized for the current level cap; that won't last. Give me rules of thumb, strategies that newbies can learn, and things to do that let folks new to the class create, level, and love their rogues. :)

binnsr
11-14-2007, 12:38 AM
my original reply was tongue in cheek .. guess i forgot the smiley

SableShadow
11-14-2007, 12:58 AM
my original reply was tongue in cheek .. guess i forgot the smiley

Nah, I'm kinda anal retentive. Side effect of a stats background. ;)

SableShadow
12-21-2007, 08:59 AM
Minor update; added links to other guides in the Audience section.

MysticRhythms
12-21-2007, 11:23 AM
Excellent guide and especially useful for first-time DDO Rogue players or newer players too.

Consider adding a tiny bit about stunning and how it automatically triggers Sneak Attack. Very very VERY minor point, but sometimes a cleric can be a rogue's best friend by casting the offensive magic rather than the healing. At low levels, Soundburst should make a rogue's eyes glow wide. At higher levels, Greater Command. Glitterdust from mages also works as does Blindness if anyone EVER bothers running that.

Also might mention Invisibility clickies/scrolls in the sneaking department.

But these are all incredibly minor things.

Loved the guide and especially the classy rebuff of Shade's inaccurate comments.

SableShadow
12-24-2007, 11:59 AM
Thanks, MysticRhythms! Good comments. I'm a little behind in updates, but I want to add the detail you suggested on stunning synergies and particularly invisibility.

Therbjorn
01-17-2008, 04:37 PM
This was one of, if not *the*, best guide to rogues there is. A lot of them tell you exactly what to do at every moment of play time. At that point, where is the play? I want my rogue to be customized and optomized for my form of play. Other guides don't really go into the nitty gritty of actually playing a rogue, just how to make your rogue uber. Since I am a new rogue, I'm glad I found this early on. I now realize that stealth is more of an asset than I thought, it is way more complex and everything. Thank you so much for posting this.

SableShadow
04-05-2008, 01:00 PM
Some numbers for deception's chance to fire:

Relearning my stats, so prompt me if I've made an error.

Using the Waterworks troll (Gnarkill the Troll Butcher) as a test subject (heh heh):

10 samples where each sample is the number of times Deception fired in 100 swings
(6, 5, 8, 8, 5, 4, 7, 10, 4, 11)

Sample average: 6.8
StdDev: 2.44
Variance: 5.96
From t-distribution @ 95%: 1.833
From t-distribution @ 90%: 1.383

Range @ 95% confidence: 6.8 +/- 1.833(5.96/3.16) -> 3% to 10%
Range @ 90% confidence: 6.8 +/- 1.383(5.96/3.16) -> 4% to 9%

Not really new data; we've been guessing around 5% to 10%. Call it 5% for now.

Also tried an off-hand Deception with a main hand non-Deception; out of 142 swings, Deception never fired. So, assuming that Deception transfers from the off-hand to the main hand, the odds of Deception not firing at least once in 142 swings is .003%...I'm going to go with Deception not transferring from the off-hand.


******************************************
******************************************


Some details on deception for Shroud 4


Deception breaks Harry's root, so you may not want to use it in part 4.

Ok, I'm convinced. :(

Looks like yet another specific weapon set for one particular quest. :D

***************************

Edit: collecting test data. Had to add an Indeterminate category, as Shattermantle in use by someone else is sometimes difficult to distinguish from Deception.

Runs w/o deception, no movement in Shroud 4: 15
Runs Indeterminate, no movement in Shroud 4: 0
Runs w/ deception, no movement in Shroud 4: 0

Runs w/o deception, movement in Shroud 4: 0
Runs Indeterminate, movement in Shroud 4: 2
Runs w/ deception, movement in Shroud 4: 3*

*I've been getting Arraetrikos movement every other run or so while using deception, starting in Mod 8. It would happen occasionally before that, but not to the extreme it does now.

Borror0
04-05-2008, 01:45 PM
First, glad you're still around. It's been a while since I've seen you post.


Not really new data; we've been guessing around 5% to 10%, but it's suggestive that the actual fire rate is 5% (given that DnD uses increments of 5% for most things). It always felt a little higher than 5% to me, but I'm gonna go with 5% given the data.

I'd go with 7%, while D&D uses 5% increments, this is DDO and there have been examples in the past of non-5% increments. Tier 3 Green Steel effects are a good example of it.

SableShadow
04-05-2008, 02:29 PM
First, glad you're still around. It's been a while since I've seen you post.

Been away for a spell; just came back this week. :)

Glenalth
04-05-2008, 06:00 PM
Also tried an off-hand Deception with a main hand non-Deception; out of 142 swings, Deception never fired. So, assuming that Deception transfers from the off-hand to the main hand, the odds of Deception not firing at least once in 142 swings is .003%...I'm going to go with Deception not transferring from the off-hand.

Could also try a thrower in the main hand and deception in off hand to eliminate those off hand attacks entirely.

SableShadow
04-05-2008, 11:07 PM
Could also try a thrower in the main hand and deception in off hand to eliminate those off hand attacks entirely.


Actually, the 'test subject' couldn't handle more than a couple hits at a time, so I was just swinging the main hand a couple times and wait for him to regen. It was tedious, but gave me a better handle on the numbers.

Excellent idea, though: thrower + test subject in a pit or something to keep the range out of sneak attack range = deception firing w/o sneak attack damage -> autofire instead of waiting for the critter to heal up all the time. :p

Any quests that might meet those criteria? I'm liking use of trolls, since they regen.

Borror0
04-05-2008, 11:11 PM
Any quests that might meet those criteria? I'm liking use of trolls, since they regen.

Hitting on a cleric in either Deathmath or Capture the Flag?

SableShadow
04-06-2008, 01:21 AM
Hitting on a cleric in either Deathmath or Capture the Flag?


It's a good idea; I steer clear of PvP for testing PvE stuff, though, for a couple of reasons.

We know that at least Sneak Attack seems to work differently between the two (i.e. PvP gives it to you if you flank, or so I'm told; PvE doesn't. If you have agro, you don't get it even if you flank...or at least that was true when I tested it prior to Mod 6).

Also, some of the data collection gets a bit tedious, so I try to find things I can quickly set up solo. Generally significantly lower level, so all I have to worry about are my test conditions. I'll see if I can drag the ww troll into the pit in front of his lair; that would be ideal, I think, if I want to test some more stuff out.

Glenalth
04-06-2008, 03:53 AM
Actually, the 'test subject' couldn't handle more than a couple hits at a time, so I was just swinging the main hand a couple times and wait for him to regen. It was tedious, but gave me a better handle on the numbers.

Excellent idea, though: thrower + test subject in a pit or something to keep the range out of sneak attack range = deception firing w/o sneak attack damage -> autofire instead of waiting for the critter to heal up all the time. :p

Any quests that might meet those criteria? I'm liking use of trolls, since they regen.

I think there are a couple safe spots in Ataraxia's Haven such as the towers on some buildings. They have the added benefit of being near Skrag Trolls, which don't die at all unless you're using elemental damage so auto-attack is a go. They do have decent bows to shoot back with, though careful positioning in sniping spot should solve that.

SableShadow
04-06-2008, 10:27 AM
I think there are a couple safe spots in Ataraxia's Haven such as the towers on some buildings. They have the added benefit of being near Skrag Trolls, which don't die at all unless you're using elemental damage so auto-attack is a go. They do have decent bows to shoot back with, though careful positioning in sniping spot should solve that.

Sounds perfect!

Thanks, Glen! :)

SableShadow
09-09-2008, 09:03 AM
Partial Mod 7 update.

To Do List:

- Shroud items (HP item, Radiance II weapons)
- Way of X (I and II)
- Current Inventory and Tactics

SableShadow
10-31-2008, 11:46 AM
Added section on Greensteel.

Varr
10-31-2008, 01:29 PM
Fun read, alot of sound advice and solid topics to contemplate when your rolling up a rogue. Thanks for the effort!

SableShadow
11-06-2008, 09:15 AM
Updated the UMD section to include DC projections at level 16 and the useful scrolls list to include Enervation and Waves of Exhaustion.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-06-2008, 10:27 AM
Wow, good guide.....a lot to read. lol.

Haven't read it all yet, so forgive me if you've covered this.

Skills, and boosting them.
Esp trap skills.

Wisdom add to Spot.....so Owls wisdom, available in potions and wands.
Int add to Search and Disable. Fox's pots and wands.
Dex adds to OL.
And Cha adds to UMD.

Str adds to Jump and Swim,and Dex adds to stealth.

Heroism Pots adds 2 to skills.
Prayer and Voice of the Master add a +1 Luck bonus that stacks with heroism.

Prayer is available on Scrolls and can be UMDed.
Greater Heroism is availabale on Scrolls....adds 4 to skills. High UMD required though.
But GH scrolls are cheaper than raise dead scrolls, so using a couple GH scrolls to booste your chance of UMDing a raise dead scroll makes some sense.

Find Traps spell......from scrolls adds +1 to search, stacks with everything else.

Divine Power is available on Scrolls.

Blur from scrolls lasts 3 min.
Monster summoning one scrolls for stealthing.
Invisibility scrolls....3 min.

Potions of Jump
Potions of Haste.

Haste!!!!!
Adds to AC, adds to saves, adds to distance jumped and ran........plus combat.

Wands of shield....lvl 1 can be bought, but more annoying then useful IMO.
Lvl 10 drop from chests.....high UMD, but 10 min is a nice long buff.

Resist potions, and prot potions.....esp for STK.
Also wands. 10 pts of Acid resist is useful even at high lvls.

Human Verisitility Booste! For multi-classed rogues this is great.
Ranger skill boost is also avail.

Wands of Stoneskin.
Many scrolls have no save, so these are useful. Some require such high caster lvl that they are useful from scrolls even at high lvl.
I've found the Symbol of Fear effect from the Emerald Claw tier 2 trinket actually works well......

Diplomacy, Diplomacy, DIPLOMACY!
This will keep you alive and dramatically increase your kill count.

Bluff if soloing or off by your self.

SA damage is awesome!
You don't need good weps, or anything.....just good tactics....Diplomacy helps.
I think multi-classed would-be battle rogues, really don't realise what they give up here.
A multi-classed rogue is probably better against things that cannot be SAed, or better when they cannot(don't try) to get rid of agro.
But if you splash more than 1 lvl of another class, you lose SA damage.
And it adds up fast.

My Pure Rogue 13 is the best DPS per lvl char I have.......maybe the best period.
I average 45-50 pts on a non crit, and I crit a lot! So 50-80 is prob my average damage per swing.
Some times I have trouble hitting, but Divine Power can take care of that.

And yes, I do get SA damage all the time! (if it can be SAed)
Tactics. Run around the outside of the pack, attack as many things as possible.
Hit Diplo often! Real often if you are taking damage.
That and just waiting till someone else attacks first.....
Gets you tons of SA damage numbers.

One more thing.
Shield block with your back to the wall and heal up. Fearsome armor helps too.
If you are really in trouble, you can hold off an army this way and heal up to a fighting lvl again.

SableShadow
01-11-2009, 09:57 PM
Added comments on Rogue: Specialty.

alchilito
01-17-2009, 03:11 AM
Thank you for this wonderful thread Brenna, and for all the amazing things you do in the game.

Thank you.

EazyWeazy
01-28-2009, 08:41 AM
Bumpity bump bump. :)

SableShadow
01-31-2009, 12:35 PM
Updated the 'of Deception' suffix analysis (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1651482&postcount=53)to include the Shroud 4 breaking-the-raid-boss-root 'feature'.

SableShadow
02-08-2009, 10:40 AM
Added some details on Assassin poisons, Thoughtburn specifically, to the Greensteel & Rogue: Specialty (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1390162) section. Thanks, Venar! :)

SableShadow
02-25-2009, 10:39 PM
Not updating this guide any more.

If someone wants to cut 'n paste to get their own guide up and running, be my guest.

I only ask that you give weight to all the various skills that come with being a rogue: dps, skillz, traps, etc. and not focus on one particular thing just because you happen to specialize in it.

Thanks!

Addendum: please check out the Compendium Entry (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Notes_from_a_Dancing_Rogue) and feel free to add to it...just keep in mind my above request for even handedness.

captain1z
11-03-2009, 12:18 AM
Hey sable and others.............


Im gonna Necro this thread because it has some relevance with the F2P crowd and it is not as visable in the compendium at a glance.

May it live for another 2-5 days and then return to its grave and may others learn from its ancient wisdom.


/sacrifices 12 chickens a kobold and 2 glazed tasty hams

Bernaise
12-02-2009, 10:58 PM
This guide was super useful while fleshing out the Rogue build I want to run *Bump*

Only info I found lacking was in regards to choosing alignment. Initially I wanted to run Lawful Neutral and was informed that by doing so it would gimp me from some of the better gear down the line. Is there another guide about Alignment choice for Rogues elsewhere? Looked around and didn't find one..

Arkat
01-31-2010, 09:59 AM
Rogues are not useful melee combatants. There enhancements and feats are just too weak to support actual useful contributions to anything remotely challenging. A rogue can, at best expect to deal about 10% as much damage in melee as a barbarian... Pretty much ignorable.



Do you still believe this Shade?

Fenrisulven6
01-31-2010, 10:21 AM
I read Shade as parody. He was serious?

And thanks again Sable. I've been having a blast playing my rogues. I would have been gimped without these Notes.

Spisey
01-31-2010, 10:22 AM
http://www.colasiteoflife.com/fok/ibtl/IBTDStarWars.gif
:p

Sorry. Had to put this in a thread that doesn't disappear!

SableShadow
02-03-2010, 11:56 PM
Sorry. Had to put this in a thread that doesn't disappear!

Fine, as long as they are looking at the Compendium version rather than this thread...

Spisey
02-03-2010, 11:58 PM
Fine, as long as they are looking at the Compendium version rather than this thread...


So how do you feel about epic traps today? :D

phalaeo2
12-21-2015, 02:52 PM
We've got some new players on Argo that could benefit from this.
Bumpity-bump stuff.

Meep Meep!