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Mad_Bombardier
10-12-2007, 09:39 AM
That's right, I said it. The builds created by Devs for auto-character creation suck noodles! :p And it is a big deterrent to new players who do not know D&D3.5 and are learning the game. I can't tell you how many new players I've had to help reroll because they didn't customize and the auto-builds were so bad. Poor Rogues that can't spot traps in level 3 dungeons using the auto-build. :(

Has the game changed that much since you came up with those builds in Beta? Are you just that bad at your own game? :eek: Say it isn't so!

And no, I'm not talking about min/max-ing. I'm talking about basic gameplay. Examples include: Rogues with 10 INT and Slicing Blow feat. Halfling Rogue with 14 CHA, but Human Rogue with 10 CHA. Paladins with Shield Mastery or Tower Shield Proficiency. Dwarf Wizards with 15 CON and Empower Spell, but Elf Wizards with 10 CON and Extend Spell. Elf Wizard with 10 STR/15 DEX, Elf Sorc with 12STR/13DEX. Are there truly random elements to the builds, or are they intentionally built differently? Why?

How about a new contest for redoing the Auto-builds? Try to standardize the builds across races and classes. Your build doesn't have to be the best XYZ; doesn't have to be perfect. But, should be able to function in the game. Some good, well-rounded 28pt builds, with no min/maxing (no 18s, no more than one score of 8, try to minimize penalties).

I'll get us started with a new Human Cleric (other races can use same starting stats adjusted for racial +/-).
Current: S-14, D-10, C-10, I-10, W-16, Ch-14. Mental Toughness, Improved Turning
Proposed: S-14, D-10, C-14, I-8, W-16, Ch-12. Mental Toughness, Empower Healing (to be traditional)

oronisi
10-12-2007, 10:08 AM
The auto builds aren't so bad. What's bad is how badly every single other person min-maxes their characters. The auto-builds are more in line with PnP D&D, and how the game was originally built to be played (in my opinion I guess).

Sure, they aren't streamlined to be uber....have you ever checked up on the PnP default characters? They are on the same level as the auto-build chars. You don't see one with 18str 8dex 16con 6wis 8 int 8 cha, even though we make guys like that every day.

Mad_Bombardier
10-12-2007, 10:17 AM
Sure, they aren't streamlined to be uber....have you ever checked up on the PnP default characters? They are on the same level as the auto-build chars. You don't see one with 18str 8dex 16con 6wis 8 int 8 cha, even though we make guys like that every day.If you read my original post, you'll see that min/max-ing is not at all what I had in mind. I explicitly said not to min/max for auto-builds. I did request functional builds for DDO. And a Rogue with 10 INT is not a functional build in DDO.

Maybe the problem is that they used PnP builds. But, DDO is different enough that the auto-builds cripple players attempting to use them.

Borror0
10-12-2007, 10:18 AM
I thought about this before... but now that I look at it... they aren't that bad. But they could be better.

But they could be better, but they are alright. Most of them as RP explanations behind. Example, the Elf being squishy but agile.

Dariun
10-12-2007, 10:27 AM
A basic human rogue:

str -- 12
dex -- 16
con -- 10
int -- 14
wis -- 10
cha -- 12

feats: dodge, nimble fingers

or, if you want to optimize for DDO a bit more:

str -- 10
dex -- 16
con -- 14
int -- 14
wis -- 10
cha -- 10

feats: toughness, iron will

ccheath776
10-12-2007, 10:35 AM
A basic human rogue:

str -- 12
dex -- 16
con -- 10
int -- 14
wis -- 10
cha -- 12

feats: dodge, nimble fingers

or, if you want to optimize for DDO a bit more:

str -- 10
dex -- 16
con -- 14
int -- 14
wis -- 10
cha -- 10

feats: toughness, iron will

Nahh I would take the 2 extra from str and put that on WIS.

Wis is for the ability to find traps.
int is to disable and skill points.

Dex should be high as well so that a rougue can fight at least.

Kindoki
10-12-2007, 10:38 AM
I can see an entire RP group being formed on the basis of auto-builds...

Mad_Bombardier
10-12-2007, 10:40 AM
Cool, thanks Dariun! For reference, Human Rogue

Current: S-14, D-17, C-11, I-10, W-10, Ch-11. TWF, Sneaky
Proposed: S-12, D-16, C-10, I-14, W-10, Ch-12. Dodge, Nimble Fingers

ErgonomicCat
10-12-2007, 10:44 AM
And no, I'm not talking about min/max-ing. I'm talking about basic gameplay. Examples include: Rogues with 10 INT and Slicing Blow feat.


Rogues get 8+int SP per level, don't they?. 8 SP is enough to hit all the big rogue needs - OL, DD, Spot, Listen, Hide, MS, UMD, Tumble....



Halfling Rogue with 14 CHA, but Human Rogue with 10 CHA.


Humans get an extra skill point. After 4 levels, if you put that in UMD, it works out just fine.



Paladins with Shield Mastery or Tower Shield Proficiency.


Maybe not optimal, but it's not like using a Tower Shield is bad game play....



Dwarf Wizards with 15 CON and Empower Spell, but Elf Wizards with 10 CON and Extend Spell. Elf Wizard with 10 STR/15 DEX,


All of those are very archetypical. Squishy elf with long lasting magic. Tough dwarf with hard hitting magic. Elf wizard with high dex for dodging and bows (elves get weapon prof with bows).



Elf Sorc with 12STR/13DEX.


Sorcs have always been seen as more "combatty" in DnD. I don't agree with it, but even the PnP sorc has a longspear and apparently is intended to use it.



Current: S-14, D-10, C-10, I-10, W-16, Ch-14. Mental Toughness, Improved Turning
Proposed: S-14, D-10, C-14, I-8, W-16, Ch-12. Mental Toughness, Empower Healing (to be traditional)

See, I'd never recommend a new player take an 8 on int. As a cleric, that's *1* skill point per level if you're non human. That doesn't let them experience anything at all with the skill system.

The Cha I agree with, but that's more an issue of turning being fairly weak in DDO. If you assume that turning is effective, the first build is better.

I'll agree that the builds could certainly be better, but from a PoV of getting someone in to the game that hasn't played it, and letting them experiment, they do their job.

jaitee
10-12-2007, 10:47 AM
if you dont min/max, you are useless on quest harder then normal

the only setting you will be ok on is normal

i remember a dev even, saying something like, you dont have to min/max stats, you will be ok on normal, not other settings though

Mad_Bombardier
10-12-2007, 11:01 AM
Rogues get 8+int SP per level, don't they?. 8 SP is enough to hit all the big rogue needs - OL, DD, Spot, Listen, Hide, MS, UMD, Tumble...
You forgot Search & Balance. You also forgot that Search and Disable are INT based skills. Low INT means low bonus, means less chance of finding the trapbox in the first place. Thus my reference to the newbie player that used the auto-build and couldn't Search a trapbox in a L3 quest.

Humans get an extra skill point. After 4 levels, if you put that in UMD, it works out just fine.
Levels don't matter because max skill ranks is still the same. It works out that a Human has 2 less points in all CHA skills.

Maybe not optimal, but it's not like using a Tower Shield is bad game play...
No, Tower Shields are not a bad thing. My point was the difference between the builds.

All of those are very archetypical. Squishy elf with long lasting magic. Tough dwarf with hard hitting magic. Elf wizard with high dex for dodging and bows (elves get weapon prof with bows).
Again, I was noting the difference between the builds. Why should a new player be forced into archetypes? I think they should have a good generalized build that can be developed into their own character as it levels.

Sorcs have always been seen as more "combatty" in DnD. I don't agree with it, but even the PnP sorc has a longspear and apparently is intended to use it.
Again, a difference between PnP and DDO. We're playing DDO and the auto-builds need to be specific to this game. If I want PnP builds, I can get them from the D&D3.5 sourcebooks.

See, I'd never recommend a new player take an 8 on int. As a cleric, that's *1* skill point per level if you're non human. That doesn't let them experience anything at all with the skill system.
The Current: Paladin build uses an 8 INT, so did I the same. And Clerics have 3 class skills, so they don't get to experience much as it is.

The Cha I agree with, but that's more an issue of turning being fairly weak in DDO. If you assume that turning is effective, the first build is better.
Again, a noted difference and necessary change in builds from PnP to DDO.

I'll agree that the builds could certainly be better, but from a PoV of getting someone in to the game that hasn't played it, and letting them experiment, they do their job.
This is where we disagree. I think that the builds are just bad enough that new players cannot learn to successfully do their job.Replies in orange, pumpkiny goodness.

Memnir
10-12-2007, 11:12 AM
These auto-builds have not changed stat-wise since the early beta, when you did not need to be ultra-min/maxed to excell at higher level content. Well, that's not true. There was a time in the beta when taking the Halfling Sorcerer autobuild would net you a 24 Dex at 1st level... they changed that. :p

But, they should be reevaluated by current standards.

Ziggy
10-12-2007, 11:15 AM
if you dont min/max, you are useless on quest harder then normal

the only setting you will be ok on is normal

i remember a dev even, saying something like, you dont have to min/max stats, you will be ok on normal, not other settings though
I regularly play on elite quests with my WF 9 barb/4 fighter/1 wizard who started with a 16 strength. Hes level 14 and tops out befoer rages at 24 strength(Ive only used a +1 tome). I have no problems playing him.

Would he be better if i started out at 18 strength? probably not as my other stats would be lower and i wouldnt work the same as i do now.

You dont need to minmaxx to be efficient on elite.

GeneralDiomedes
10-12-2007, 11:15 AM
if you dont min/max, you are useless on quest harder then normal

the only setting you will be ok on is normal

i remember a dev even, saying something like, you dont have to min/max stats, you will be ok on normal, not other settings though

Why don't you build a character without a single stat minimized or maximized and see how he does? I'll bet you get along just fine.

Yvonne_Blacksword
10-12-2007, 11:55 AM
No!!!
Rebel against the configuration!
Never try to make me play with your stats...
I like mine.
Min max...balanced...hah!

Dariun
10-12-2007, 11:55 AM
Nahh I would take the 2 extra from str and put that on WIS.


Reasonable.The extra + to will save is good.

But I think Spot DCs just got lowered in the recent update (back to what they were before 3.3, I'd guess), and Search (INT based skill) is what is really important.

Dariun
10-12-2007, 12:03 PM
Dex should be high as well so that a rougue can fight at least.

BTW, 16 dex *is* reasonably high for a human rogue, and by lvl 10 you can fairly easily get that to 24-26, which is enough to hit things if you have weapon finesse (I should know -- those stats are the starting stats for my main character).

tihocan
10-12-2007, 12:36 PM
I agree some default build choices are weird, especially feat-wise (from the little I've seen).
One major issue with a start build is it usually comes with some kind of plan for future levels, and there is no such plan provided with the default builds. I think if we really want good default builds, we need:
- a variety of choices for each class and race
- a description of how this build is supposed to be played and how it is supposed to evolve at higher levels

What about an official build contest, where winners would be added to the game?

But it's a lot of work, so, yes, fixing the obvious weird stuff would already be a first step ;)

Mad_Bombardier
10-12-2007, 01:43 PM
What about an official build contest, where winners would be added to the game?Wow tihocan, it's like your reading my mind, ...er original post. :D
That's right, I said it. The builds created by Devs for auto-character creation suck noodles! :p

How about a new contest for redoing the Auto-builds? Try to standardize the builds across races and classes. Your build doesn't have to be the best XYZ; doesn't have to be perfect. But, should be able to function in the game. Some good, well-rounded 28pt builds, with no min/maxing (no 18s, no more than one score of 8, try to minimize penalties).

Cruzer
10-12-2007, 02:06 PM
Nahh I would take the 2 extra from str and put that on WIS.

Wis is for the ability to find traps.
int is to disable and skill points.

Dex should be high as well so that a rougue can fight at least.


Wisdom helps you spot a trap, not find it with search. INT is far more important to a rogue that wants to find & disable traps.

Xyfiel
10-12-2007, 02:21 PM
I will give it a shot. Here is my idea for a balanced Rogue for now:

Human Rogue
10 Str
14 dex
14 con
14 int
12 wis
12 cha
TWF, Skill Focus UMD

Dwarf Rogue
10 Str
14 dex
16 con
14 int
12 wis
10 cha
TWF

Elf Rogue
10 Str
16 dex
12 con
14 int
10 wis
14 cha
TWF

Warforged Rogue
10 Str
14 dex
16 con
14 int
10 wis
10 cha
TWF

Halfling Rogue
10 Str
16 dex
14 con
14 int
12 wis
10 cha
TWF

Drow Rogue
10 Str
16 dex
12 con
16 int
10 wis
16 cha
TWF

MrWizard
10-12-2007, 03:15 PM
That's right, I said it. The builds created by Devs for auto-character creation suck noodles! :p And it is a big deterrent to new players who do not know D&D3.5 and are learning the game. I can't tell you how many new players I've had to help reroll because they didn't customize and the auto-builds were so bad. Poor Rogues that can't spot traps in level 3 dungeons using the auto-build. :(

Has the game changed that much since you came up with those builds in Beta? Are you just that bad at your own game? :eek: Say it isn't so!

And no, I'm not talking about min/max-ing. I'm talking about basic gameplay. Examples include: Rogues with 10 INT and Slicing Blow feat. Halfling Rogue with 14 CHA, but Human Rogue with 10 CHA. Paladins with Shield Mastery or Tower Shield Proficiency. Dwarf Wizards with 15 CON and Empower Spell, but Elf Wizards with 10 CON and Extend Spell. Elf Wizard with 10 STR/15 DEX, Elf Sorc with 12STR/13DEX. Are there truly random elements to the builds, or are they intentionally built differently? Why?

How about a new contest for redoing the Auto-builds? Try to standardize the builds across races and classes. Your build doesn't have to be the best XYZ; doesn't have to be perfect. But, should be able to function in the game. Some good, well-rounded 28pt builds, with no min/maxing (no 18s, no more than one score of 8, try to minimize penalties).

I'll get us started with a new Human Cleric (other races can use same starting stats adjusted for racial +/-).
Current: S-14, D-10, C-10, I-10, W-16, Ch-14. Mental Toughness, Improved Turning
Proposed: S-14, D-10, C-14, I-8, W-16, Ch-12. Mental Toughness, Empower Healing (to be traditional)


One of my fighters is a build, first fighter I made...he does absolutely fine. His strength is not mazzed, but I never need GH with him, his ac is fine, his saves are fine...
He is more well rounded than my uber 32 point as I maxxed things with him.

I think they are fine and offer the user an ability to morph to a multiclass since they are more rounded.

Also, as a new player once it gave me a toon I did not have to reroll cause I screwed up. A little tweaking perhaps, but I think many use it as a guideline after the first toon as they understand the game better.

tihocan
10-12-2007, 03:29 PM
Wow tihocan, it's like your reading my mind, ...er original post. :D
I guess it did, I just wasn't aware of it!

Riggs
10-13-2007, 12:43 AM
signed

If someone new to the game just starts off witha random build - they are going to be generally severely gimped if they ever get to high levels.

It doesnt hurt experienced players, who know better and know how to make a character (usually, but not always), but it really does hurt new players who just click 'ok' "Well it must be decent if the game is telling me to take this"

*edit - just took at look at the builds, and they arent too bad really, but most of the fighter races are fairly low on con except for the dwarf. the halfling and elf both have finesse and high dex, but finesse is really dependant on special weapons - a fighter with low strength is going to have a lot of problems later on without some serious weapons - which a brand new player is not going to have for a long time.

Pretty much unless there is a special build in mind, there is never a good reason to take less than 16 in a main stat.

the other classes didnt seem too bad really, fairly balanced, didnt look at too many of the feats, but the stats (17 int for all the wiz races, 16 charisma for bards etc, with a mostly balanced round of other stats) - halflings are -2 str, but that still isnt a reason to short str, especially for a barb, a 13 str barb ...

MysticTheurge
10-13-2007, 10:10 AM
I'd like to suggest you go a step farther and create 2 or 3 builds per class and allow people to choose between them based on logical names. (For reference, Neverwinter Nights does this.)

Thus you might have:

Fighter, two-handed weapons.
Fighter, dual wielder.
Fighter, sword and shield.

And so on.

Borror0
10-13-2007, 12:58 PM
I'd like to suggest you go a step farther and create 2 or 3 builds per class and allow people to choose between them based on logical names. (For reference, Neverwinter Nights does this.)

Thus you might have:

Fighter, two-handed weapons.
Fighter, dual wielder.
Fighter, sword and shield.

And so on.

Yeah, that would be great.

Honeslty... I correct myself... didn't look at the feat selection!!:eek:

Ghoste
10-13-2007, 02:11 PM
I'd like to suggest you go a step farther and create 2 or 3 builds per class and allow people to choose between them based on logical names. (For reference, Neverwinter Nights does this.)

Thus you might have:

Fighter, two-handed weapons.
Fighter, dual wielder.
Fighter, sword and shield.

And so on.
There should be a choice to follow a build when you level up as well.

And what about multi classing? For example a battle mage. Have a build planned out for both wizard and fighter levels with stats, feats and skills planned out, and people decide how many levels they want of each by which class trainer they go to each level. The battle mage choice would give them whatever skill points, stat increases, feats, etc. possible for that build at that trainer.

Emili
10-13-2007, 02:14 PM
Why don't you build a character without a single stat minimized or maximized and see how he does? I'll bet you get along just fine.

That's true, but the numbers closer to max excell far better. Like the other poster who has a Barb with 24 str pre-rage is not going to land many hits without rage or buffs. It would not far well in Elite settings alone but is highly party dependent. Maxing is not a must for elite at all ie.) 18's and 20's are far from a must. 17's and 16's afford better rounded toons and put you in the running of elite comfortably. 15 or 14 in a primary comabant or casting stat is really pushing it though ... in elite setting you're on the breaking point at 16 stat to start and must shore up either in enhancements and/or Uber loot to get back in the functional area.

BlueLightBandit
10-13-2007, 06:12 PM
I think you guys are putting too much faith in people leveling their original character to lvl 10+. The first character I rolled was a default build... and after I realized what was important in the game I rolled another. It was about the same time that I found the forums and read up on some build advice for specific classes. I rolled a char exactly like in the thread, and by lvl 8 I was already making changes on my own... suited to my own playstyle. The starter builds are just that... for starter players, so that they can learn the nuances of DDO (as opposed to PnP, or whatever).

Keep in mind that a new player now starts with 7 character slots. (+1 for drow and +1 for 1750) That should be plenty to experiment and learn the different nuances of the casters vs. melee, the difference between a stat dependant build and a skill dependant build, and so on and so forth. The skills... well that's what makes D&D so much fun... is that you can build umpteen different versions of the same class, so a default skillset is always going to suffer there.

I really don't think those builds are intended to last the duration of the game. Rather they are just starter builds to get you into the game quickly. Also, someone who studied the starter builds would see the difference between the stats on classes that he or she would be interested in... and could work from there, thus making it a little easier on someone who was unfamiliar with D&D rules and character building.

I also think that too many people are caught up in what they consider to be "end-game" builds right now. I recall people rerolling their rogues just to find the one trap in Cabal, or because of the Human Vesatility change. Don't forget that we're only at level 12 right now... and we don't have a clue what's going to be in the game at level 20, or beyond.

JelloMold
10-13-2007, 07:08 PM
I can see an entire RP group being formed on the basis of auto-builds...

I actually thought about trying to start up a group based off auto builds with non-twink/no AH. Still challenging but without the nasty permanence of permadeath.

My first character was a pally based off the recommendations. I was able to get him to 11 and I'm sure he'd be viable further if I had done my stat level ups/later feat choices etc. differently. WAAAyyyy too much Charisma and not enough Strength. I think it is definitely the player that makes for success.

I don't think the starting point is the only issue. It is really tough to understand the implications of feat choices, choosing stats to level up etc. the first time through.

Mad_Bombardier
10-14-2007, 09:41 AM
I think you guys are putting too much faith in people leveling their original character to lvl 10+. <snip>

I really don't think those builds are intended to last the duration of the game. Rather they are just starter builds to get you into the game quickly. Also, someone who studied the starter builds would see the difference between the stats on classes that he or she would be interested in... and could work from there, thus making it a little easier on someone who was unfamiliar with D&D rules and character building.I have my original character. He is based on my D&D Cleric from 2nd ed. PnP. He had nothing higher than a 16 to start. He did just fine leveling up and does just fine in end game. He has not been rerolled to meet any metagame standards.

For some reason people assume that I am asking for perfect builds, min/maxed builds, builds to meet L14 "end game" standard. I am not. I am asking for better basic builds than the ones provided; builds that can function in the game. (And also for a bit of standardization in the builds, but that's another point).

My argument comes back to the starter Rogue build. A Rogue cannot progress in DDO with a 10 INT. He will blow traps left and right before he leaves the Harbor. The starter builds should not be failures in their own class functions.

A_Sheep
10-14-2007, 10:50 AM
My argument comes back to the starter Rogue build. A Rogue cannot progress in DDO with a 10 INT. He will blow traps left and right before he leaves the Harbor. The starter builds should not be failures in their own class functions.

I'm right with ya on this. A twinked rogue with +5 tools, Puzzle Cap, and +3 skills items at level 1 can do fine with a 10 int, but a 'starter' will not.

Vormaerin
10-14-2007, 06:58 PM
Frankly, unless the game goes with some sort of 'recommend' button at every level up the functionality of default starters is limited. No one coming to the game without D&D background is going to know enough to build their first character to do what they actually want in the long term. Or even know what all the possibilities are.

Heck, most folks with p&p background aren't going to be able to do that with the changes in how things work in DDO, though they'll come a lot closer.

As mentioned, the starter builds are not intended to be eternal characters. Just something folks can play around with until they get some idea of how the game actually works and what they really want to do.

MysticTheurge
10-14-2007, 09:52 PM
As mentioned, the starter builds are not intended to be eternal characters. Just something folks can play around with until they get some idea of how the game actually works and what they really want to do.

Yeah, but they could be builds that you could work with, once you'd played for a while and learned more about the game.

A lot of the current defaults have choices made that you'll come to later go 'huh?' about.

Vormaerin
10-15-2007, 06:34 AM
Well, I haven't really looked over all of them. I've played D&D for nearly 30 years now so I never had a reason to use them. But nothing posted in this thread is really egregious. You really do want better than a 10 Int on your rogue, but you aren't completely hosed if you don't have it. The other choices are 'whatever' as well. There is a lot of "This is the best/only way" to do stuff attitude in most computer games, but its rarely true. Its just the easiest way for a particular play style.

And running raids on elite isn't really the end target for a lot of folks who play this kind of game, so they can survive with an even more divergent set of builds and plenty of "suboptimal" choices.

wundernewb
10-15-2007, 07:10 AM
if you dont min/max, you are useless on quest harder then normal

the only setting you will be ok on is normal

i remember a dev even, saying something like, you dont have to min/max stats, you will be ok on normal, not other settings though

Wrong. A decently-played character that isn't min/maxed (assuming the stats aren't skewed to the other extreme) is just fine on hard, and can do ok on elite, if the party plays as a team.

Anybody who is useless on anything but normal with a non min/maxed character has deeper issues than their build.

Just because a dev said it, well........ there's a lot of negative threads in this forum made specifically because something the devs supposedly said isn't entirely true

clay2
10-15-2007, 07:25 AM
but have you looked at various combinations of the auto generated characters?

There are some strange numbers there.

If you are wanting to make a CC wiz/sorc or bard, you need maxed primary stat--it adds to the DC. A friend of mine had one that was not maxed and on elite quests you could really see the difference.

I made a balanced bbn as my first DDO character... and it was fun for a long while... but as the difficulty went up, my contribution to quest completion went down... Now he is a mule. My batman is not maxed in any trait but his role is different... I really do believe in Min/Maxing if you want to stand out as a character.

The characters auto created really could use some refreshing... I never really looked at them, but after reading the OP I decided to check most of them out.