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View Full Version : Wizards and Sorcerers are grossly overpowered in PVP!



Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:02 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

KaKa
10-10-2007, 09:03 PM
so?

theedtwo
10-10-2007, 09:06 PM
yea so what i an a lv 14 sorcs and so what if i am over powered no1 cares the just do it to have fun

Ghoste
10-10-2007, 09:14 PM
Well, considering I think it was a mistake for them to put in PVP to begin with, I obviously dont care.

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:14 PM
I guess I should thank the dev's for making the perfect Two Class system.

Maybe thats why nobody uses it.

Kerr
10-10-2007, 09:15 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

It's called burst damage. A lot of damage in a short period of time. Learn to live with it.

Drider
10-10-2007, 09:17 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.


No offense, but this is why alot of people here were anti-pvp. This game isn't like other MMO's, where classes are balanced against each other.

Melee rules the lower levels and casters gain their power in the higher levels.

Sokar6000
10-10-2007, 09:18 PM
So? PvP has no place in D&D anyway.

So...what are you complaining about?

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:22 PM
No offense, but this is why alot of people here were anti-pvp. This game isn't like other MMO's, where classes are balanced against each other.

Melee rules the lower levels and casters gain their power in the higher levels.


So, after level 10 or something your saying dont bother trying unless your a caster right?

lostinjapan
10-10-2007, 09:23 PM
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

Or in the DDO scenario, if you don't like the way pvp works, you don't -have- to do it.

It's for fun for those who wish to play around with it. It doesn't work perfectly, never has, probably never will. So what? You aren't required to jump into the pits.

jaitee
10-10-2007, 09:24 PM
So, after level 10 or something your saying dont bother trying unless your a caster right?

maybe you dont have the skills to PVP

lots of fighters can kill my casters easy...

melees are just not hack and slash only, you know...

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:29 PM
maybe you dont have the skills to PVP

lots of fighters can kill my casters easy...

melees are just not hack and slash only, you know...

"lots of fighters can kill my casters easy..."

LOL

jaitee
10-10-2007, 09:30 PM
"lots of fighters can kill my casters easy..."

LOL

then what is the big deal?

Drider
10-10-2007, 09:31 PM
So, after level 10 or something your saying dont bother trying unless your a caster right?


Nope, you just have to find the caster's weakness. Stock up and collect anything that gives you buffs.. potions, clickies, some items. Pretty much if you can get into hack range, usually, you can take out a caster. Clerics are a little bit trickier then wiz/sorcs, but it is very possible.

Implements
10-10-2007, 09:31 PM
Wow what a bunch of **** head replies...

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 09:31 PM
IMO, all the classes are viable in the PvP brawl pits, just some (like casters) are easier to play well down there. I've seen some melee classes who could clean up on most casters. Its just more difficult and requires more specific equipment and skills to do well as a melee class than a caster class.

Mhykke
10-10-2007, 09:35 PM
Roll up a caster then........or a paladin.

Melee can *gasp* dodge the damage spells, Pallys have the saves for the other spells.......get to the caster, and 1 swing, tripped or stunned.

Don't blame the system just b/c you feel you can't hang.

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:35 PM
IMO, all the classes are viable in the PvP brawl pits, just some (like casters) are easier to play well down there. I've seen some melee classes who could clean up on most casters. Its just more difficult and requires more specific equipment and skills to do well as a melee class than a caster class.

so you agree its only a little one sided then?

Snike
10-10-2007, 09:37 PM
This game isn't balanced for PvP, it's not a PvP-based game like WoW. It's based off Dungeons and Dragons. Sorry but I don't ever remember hanging out in a tavern PvPing in pen and paper.

I don't see how changing the complete fundamental basis of a game for some people to be completely balanced for PvP will make everyone happy. Try the new team based PvP where you can get buffs and heals from your team mates.

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 09:38 PM
so you agree its only a little one sided then?

I agree that its easier to play a caster well in PvP, but a well played caster isn't better than a well played melee class. Just easier to do so they 'seem' to be grossly overpowered.

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:39 PM
Roll up a caster then........or a paladin.

Melee can *gasp* dodge the damage spells, Pallys have the saves for the other spells.......get to the caster, and 1 swing, tripped or stunned.

Don't blame the system just b/c you feel you can't hang.

Can i get a weapon that hits 200+ everytime verse someone with 4x as many buffs? that might help some whatcha think? One more thing. It has to hit every other swing

Kthxbye

Alavatar
10-10-2007, 09:41 PM
The iconic L14+ caster is a glass cannon. The spell repetoire allows casters to deliver massive amounts of damage in a minimal amount of time. The problem is that the casters cannot sustain that output for an extended period of time. Thus, in quests casters often rely on melee and their physical prowess to consistantly and constantly provide damage.

In PvP, casters (sorcerers, wizards, and clerics primarily) can optimize their spell list to quickly and efficiently take out most opposition due being able to unleash hell and then go back into the tavern instance to replenish their store of energy.

Suggested tactics against these foes:
1.) Use spell resistance items.

2.) Use energy resistance items. I also recommend the use of Protection from Energy if you can.

3.) Don't charge straight at them. Move around to dodge their fireballs, scorching rays, lightning bolts, and such. Mobility is crucial.

4.) False Life effects are extremely useful!

5.) Use items that help your Will save. Casters frequently exploit the low Will save of rogues, barbarians, and fighters.

6.) If rogue, increase your Constitution and Fortitude saves. Casters will frequently exploit your low Fortitude saves, especially with Flesh to Stone, Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Disintigrate.

7.) Nightshield and Shield effects are crucial for blocking force damage from Magic Missle and Force Missiles.

8.) Don't fight a caster! An experienced caster will often cast Dispel on you then cast another debilitating spell on you before you can get close. Best strategy against Dispel is to run away screaming like a little girl that has just seen a Balor for the first time.

P.S. I hate PvP and refuse to take part in it, not to mention vehemately argued against it's implementation. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you complain about it all you will do is attract the trolls who will say things like "You're just not good enough."

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:44 PM
The iconic L14+ caster is a glass cannon. The spell repetoire allows casters to deliver massive amounts of damage in a minimal amount of time. The problem is that the casters cannot sustain that output for an extended period of time. Thus, in quests casters often rely on melee and their physical prowess to consistantly and constantly provide damage.

In PvP, casters (sorcerers, wizards, and clerics primarily) can optimize their spell list to quickly and efficiently take out most opposition due being able to unleash hell and then go back into the tavern instance to replenish their store of energy.

Suggested tactics against these foes:
1.) Use spell resistance items.

2.) Use energy resistance items. I also recommend the use of Protection from Energy if you can.

3.) Don't charge straight at them. Move around to dodge their fireballs, scorching rays, lightning bolts, and such. Mobility is crucial.

4.) False Life effects are extremely useful!

5.) Use items that help your Will save. Casters frequently exploit the low Will save of rogues, barbarians, and fighters.

6.) If rogue, increase your Constitution and Fortitude saves. Casters will frequently exploit your low Fortitude saves, especially with Flesh to Stone, Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Disintigrate.

7.) Nightshield and Shield effects are crucial for blocking force damage from Magic Missle and Force Missiles.

8.) Don't fight a caster! An experienced caster will often cast Dispel on you then cast another debilitating spell on you before you can get close. Best strategy against Dispel is to run away screaming like a little girl that has just seen a Balor for the first time.

P.S. I hate PvP and refuse to take part in it, not to mention vehemately argued against it's implementation. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you complain about it all you will do is attract the trolls who will say things like "You're just not good enough."


So you agree its one sided also.
thanks

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 09:47 PM
200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.

You're right. They are a joke.

I can pretty much just strafe and they'll never hit me.

LeLoric
10-10-2007, 09:48 PM
To the OP when pvp was implemented it was advised from the development team that the game would never be balanced for pvp in mind. If they were to do this people would leave in droves. If you play this game for PVP primarily it was probably a bad decision but if ya dont mind stepping in the pit for some fun and challenge of facing a class tougher than you then its a great idea.

Just be glad casters dont have all their spells in the pit, the unbalance would be even higher.

Vinos
10-10-2007, 09:48 PM
So you agree its one sided also.
thanks

Yes it's one sided. Happy now? What would you like the devs to do about it? Don't complain without a solution.

Alavatar
10-10-2007, 09:48 PM
So you agree its one sided also.
thanks

Of course! Wizards, sorcerers, and clerics all have spells that can kill instantly. Other classes don't. Therefore, casters are better at killing at high levels.

At low levels, though, it's the other side of the coin. An L2 wizard or sorcerer would not last very long against an L2 fighter or barbarian. Would you like the low level wizards/sorcerers to come on here complaining that they can't compete against melee classes?

Drider
10-10-2007, 09:48 PM
All I have to say is never bring a knife to a gun fight. ;)

Vinos
10-10-2007, 09:50 PM
All I have to say is never bring a knife to a gun fight. ;)

lol. OP you're in the wrong place if you want sympathy. PvP is not very popular here.

Drider
10-10-2007, 09:50 PM
...


Stop stalking me Lel, no means no. :eek:

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 09:54 PM
lol. OP you're in the wrong place if you want sympathy. PvP is not very popular here.

Now I know why!

Drider
10-10-2007, 09:55 PM
Now I know why!


Should have been around in beta and when they announced PvP. ;)

Vinos
10-10-2007, 09:55 PM
Now I know why!


Becuase PvP was added as an afterthought and if they started to "balance" the classes for PvP then 75% of the playerbase would leave?

Riddikulus
10-10-2007, 10:00 PM
Yes casters are quite powerful, but they are actually very nerfed compared to PnP casters.

1) Melee get an extra attack over PnP, and triple speed.
2) Half of casters spells don't work in the brawling pits, and durations are really nerfed for AoE spells everywhere else.
3) They can use a lot of mana in a hurry because it regens (plus you can drink a tavern beverage before going in, which regens it even faster)
4) Casters don't have to worry about friendly fire... in real PnP you wouldn't be casting a fireball in such a small area.

If you want a fairer fight put together an arena battle. Casters are uber until they run out of mana, then they are cute fuzzy bunnies.

And as a caster, I know Paladins really suck as far as landing insta spells, and Barbs really hurt when they catch you.

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 10:00 PM
Becuase PvP was added as an afterthought and if they started to "balance" the classes for PvP then 75% of the playerbase would leave?

I dont believe that. Why is it that a cleric cant use the blind spell then, or why are other spells not allowed? Im not saying the game itself is unbalanced just the pvp part.

zoltan00
10-10-2007, 10:03 PM
Its still possible to beat casters in pvp all you need is night shield cliky, good saves, alot of hp atleast above 300, have ring of the djin, and the fire shield, aid, false life, Gh, and eat food cliky, true seeing, resist and protect and a decent jump. LOL so yeah if you dont have any of these items your about to get owned unless your a barb and get of a trip. Honestly i think clerics are overpowered in the game because there is no such thing as resist searing Light lol resist or protect if you go against a battle cleric with max ,enpower they at least gonna do 180-250 damage on crits your screwed. because they can use like a simple spell to get your extra hp bonus and if they crit its most likely gonna be over 350-500. SO clerics are over powered in pvp....well atleast the battle ones with the nice items:)

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 10:03 PM
Becuase PvP was added as an afterthought and if they started to "balance" the classes for PvP then 75% of the playerbase would leave?

The great thing about the way they implemented PvP is that they haven't balanced the classes. IMO, it would be a disservice to both those who enjoy PvP and those who don't if they were to balance PvP.

As a side note, I think the recent changes to the PvP Instanced arenas are pretty neat and have actually enjoyed running around in those with my friends.

Mhykke
10-10-2007, 10:04 PM
Can i get a weapon that hits 200+ everytime verse someone with 4x as many buffs? that might help some whatcha think? One more thing. It has to hit every other swing

Kthxbye

Like I said, dodge em, stun em, trip em......if you're any kind of melee ftr, you should be able to kill your fair share. Dodging those big bad spells you're so afraid of isn't that hard. Watch the casting animation.

Maybe the problem is just with you?

Vinos
10-10-2007, 10:07 PM
I dont believe that. Why is it that a cleric cant use the blind spell then, or why are other spells not allowed? Im not saying the game itself is unbalanced just the pvp part.

So not letting casters cast spells that would kill you is balanced? Just becuase you got smoked by a likely very good PvP caster doesn't mean that all casters are gods in PvP. Many a melee has tripped and killed my wizzy on many occasions. PvP is a good time killer when waiting for groups to fill up and such but it's never gonna be a big part of the game. To be honest I am suprised the devs did what they did for MOD 5.

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 10:09 PM
Its still possible to beat casters in pvp all you need is night shield cliky, good saves, alot of hp atleast above 300, have ring of the djin, and the fire shield, aid, false life, Gh, and eat food cliky, true seeing, resist and protect and a decent jump. LOL so yeah if you dont have any of these items your about to get owned unless your a barb and get of a trip. Honestly i think clerics are overpowered in the game because there is no such thing as resist searing Light lol resist or protect if you go against a battle cleric with max ,enpower they at least gonna do 180-250 damage on crits your screwed. because they can use like a simple spell to get your extra hp bonus and if they crit its most likely gonna be over 350-500. SO clerics are over powered in pvp....well atleast the battle ones with the nice items:)


So your saying if you can win the item lotto, and then....maybe if he's only got one arm, it's sorta balanced....

Thanks

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 10:14 PM
So not letting casters cast spells that would kill you is balanced? Just becuase you got smoked by a likely very good PvP caster doesn't mean that all casters are gods in PvP. Many a melee has tripped and killed my wizzy on many occasions. PvP is a good time killer when waiting for groups to fill up and such but it's never gonna be a big part of the game. To be honest I am suprised the devs did what they did for MOD 5.

Nobody likes to be one-hit killed. You'd think the dev's would get this

Snike
10-10-2007, 10:16 PM
Everyone agree's with you to some extent, but this game isn't going to be rewritten for PvP. Otherwise it would not be D&D it would be WoW.

And a Melee character can 1 hit a caster. If you get lucky;)

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 10:20 PM
Nobody likes to be one-hit killed. You'd think the dev's would get this

I'm curious to know what your suggestion is to fix the 'unbalanced' PvP...

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm curious to know what your suggestion is to fix the 'unbalanced' PvP...

I dont get paid to do that stuff, they do.

Drider
10-10-2007, 10:26 PM
I dont get paid to do that stuff, they do.


They aren't going to balance PvP. If that's what you are looking for, that's your answer.

Exgirlfriend
10-10-2007, 10:30 PM
They aren't going to balance PvP. If that's what you are looking for, that's your answer.

ok i get it...Its like buying a new car with no wheels.

Xyfiel
10-10-2007, 10:36 PM
Wait for polar ray and Ottos irresistable, anything that relies on being up close is going to die. I assume enlarge dance will hit before you have a chance to close, and if you sit still, 1 ray will do it.

Snike
10-10-2007, 10:36 PM
No it's like buying a street bike and you keep wanting to take it off road.

Sure you can do it, just don't complain about it ;P

Again you don't PvP in the original game that this game is based off of. This game is based off something you think it's not.

Drider
10-10-2007, 10:39 PM
ok i get it...Its like buying a new car with no wheels.


No reason to get your undies in a bunch over it. This game was never sold as being a PvP game. There are other MMO's that do it much better. I mean this game is better then those though, in most other aspects. ;)

The best way to get into fair PvP matches is to not use the Tavern pits o' death. Find some people that like to do it also and do team matches. That way you can have casters and melee on both sides and have a fair more bit of fun.

Invalid_86
10-10-2007, 10:49 PM
I don't think the OP gets it.

PvP should never have been in the game, the rules don't even attempt to balance classes for PvP, the rules should never ever EVER be changed to accomodate PvP, that is the way it is. Arguing to the contrary is pointless, you are in the wrong game. You know this going into PvP fights, if you honestly didn't you do now. Either don't PvP or stop complaining.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-10-2007, 11:02 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

Actually they are grossly underpowered in PVP. Half of their spells are removed and they are half crippled. Fighters on the other hand get to keep all their weapons.

Alavatar
10-10-2007, 11:05 PM
ok i get it...Its like buying a new car with no wheels.

Not really. It's more like buying a Toyota Matrix and getting upset over its inability to go 4-wheeling.

DDO is not designed for PvP.

Borror0
10-11-2007, 01:18 AM
If you keep getting squished in PvP, learn to play better. Thoise casters cannot cast if you are in their back... if you make your save. Just learn the tricks.

Honestly, I find PvP to be a must for all melees. In pvP, you fight for your life.
Every fight should be like that.

That's how you learn to be mana efficient, that nad rolling an Intimitank that grabs the aggro. You learn to place yourslef to get less damage.

Don't even hope for the Devs to balance PvP, not hapenning.

Is the caster good in a party? Yes.
Are fighters still wanted in groups? Yes.
That's what we needed to know.

My level 7 sorcerer can kill ceverything in Gwylan's with one fireball. However, everything in Gwylan's kill me easily.

Play better, and you'll kill casters.

aax
10-11-2007, 01:51 AM
i love to battle casters with my pally , its great fun staying on there back while they try to blast me. now what i dont like is when someone turns my lvl 8 fighter to stone and keeps turning me to stone for 20min intill i have to have other people come and kill them for me. that is not cool or fun. only way out is to alt+f4. it wont even let you /death. noone should have the power to keep you from leaving. something needs to be done about that. maybe like a deathward type deal.

p.s. if you think keeping someone hostage is fine. then dont even bother posting because you must be a kid or have a mind of a kid.

Vordax
10-11-2007, 02:04 AM
i love to battle casters with my pally , its great fun staying on there back while they try to blast me. now what i dont like is when someone turns my lvl 8 fighter to stone and keeps turning me to stone for 20min intill i have to have other people come and kill them for me. that is not cool or fun. only way out is to alt+f4. it wont even let you /death. noone should have the power to keep you from leaving. something needs to be done about that. maybe like a deathward type deal.

p.s. if you think keeping someone hostage is fine. then dont even bother posting because you must be a kid or have a mind of a kid.

If this happens be sure to file a harassment report, you might be able to get this child banned for a couple of days.

Vordax

wizzy_catt
10-11-2007, 02:14 AM
then what is the big deal?


"lots of fighters can kill my casters easy..."

LOL


maybe you dont have the skills to PVP

lots of fighters can kill my casters easy...

melees are just not hack and slash only, you know...

LOLOLOL
0 fighters has killed my wizard in dm
0 pallys has killed my wizard in dm
1 barbie has killed my wizard in dm
0 rogue has killed my wizard in dm
0 ranger has killed my wizard in dm

lots of fighters can kill your casters easy. how sad for you. LOLz

Vinos
10-11-2007, 07:07 AM
LOLOLOL
0 fighters has killed my wizard in dm
0 pallys has killed my wizard in dm
1 barbie has killed my wizard in dm
0 rogue has killed my wizard in dm
0 ranger has killed my wizard in dm

lots of fighters can kill your casters easy. how sad for you. LOLz

<groans>

Solstyse
10-11-2007, 07:24 AM
I have PvPed in alot of games, and usualy play on a PvP server of some type. PvP plays by a whole diffrent set of rules. If your trying to battle a player character caster like you do a mob caster your going to lose everytime. All the gear your wearing that helps in PvE is usualy worthless in PvP. Resists are god in PvP. I usualy carry around an entirerly diffrent set of gear to PvP with. High resists, clickies, extra hp, lots of healing potions. Its never fun PvPing a caster as a melee, but it does get your skills sharper. I have very little PvP exerince in DDO but I do understand your frustration. Maybe you just need to change your tactics, or gear or both. Or just stick to PvPing other melee types. Its not about winning the item lottery its about having the right items to PvP. Or in this game with as customized as you can make a toon, I can see ways of making a caster killer PvPer. If you want I will make a build for you for pure PvP reasons : )
On all that, I don't want to see PvP balanced in this game. If you think about it if Caramon was to try to fight Raistlin how long of a fight would that be?

llevenbaxx
10-11-2007, 07:29 AM
So? PvP has no place in D&D anyway.

So...what are you complaining about?

Sure it does, they just got it right in DDO is all. It would be over just as quick in a PnP game.:D

Dariun
10-11-2007, 07:31 AM
If you think about it if Caramon was to try to fight Raistlin how long of a fight would that be?


As long as Raistlin wanted it to...


OP: yes, casters will destroy 90% of melees 90% of the time at high levels. That is a core element in the game Dungeons and Dragons. If this were not true, parties would never be able to complete high level quests.

Aspenor
10-11-2007, 07:42 AM
DnD is not balanced for PvP. Arcane and Divine spellcasters will always be the most powerful characters at the higher levels. A melee based character is deadly when he's right next to you, but until then a caster has a drastic advantage.

As a matter of fact, I'd go so far as to argue that the game IS balanced. Meaning, it's out of balance in an intended way. ;)

wundernewb
10-11-2007, 07:45 AM
I dont believe that. Why is it that a cleric cant use the blind spell then, or why are other spells not allowed? Im not saying the game itself is unbalanced just the pvp part.


That's just it. The balancing is very similar to the actual Dungeons & Dragons game.

In that game, PvP only exists if you have a beef with a party member.

So the game is balanced for a party to take on hordes of mobs, throughout roughly 20 minutes (or longer) and played properly, you have a fairly good chance to finish the quest.

PvP, to be balanced properly, would give you (with an equal opponent) only an even chance to win.

Other games have better PvP because they were designed for it, not based on a game where it barely ever happens.

Before you complain about PvP balance, ask yourself: what would happen if a melee could do as much damage in the same time period as a caster? What point would there be having casters in a quest, when any well-protected melee can kill just as fast as they can?

MysticTheurge
10-11-2007, 07:50 AM
Why is it that a cleric cant use the blind spell then, or why are other spells not allowed?

This is easy to answer:

PvP doesn't allow spells with a duration of permanent. (Blindness, Bestow Curse, etc.)

PvP doesn't allow spells with persistent areas of effect. (Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier, Solid Fog, etc.)

PvP doesn't allow spells which summon creatures. (Summon Monster line, etc.)

The first is because permanent effects would cause other players significant trouble after they'd left the PvP area. All the rest is simply a game engine concern. If you have people in PvP started putting down persistent AoE spells you'd quickly reach the point where it would overload the game and start lagging people out and/or crash.

MrWizard
10-11-2007, 08:53 AM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

greater dispell magic, flesh to stone....

greater dispell, max/emp, ehanced burning blood

FoD...enervate...Fod...greater dispel..enervate..FoD.

Enervate..displl, enervate..pk

dispel, enervate..hold person...disintigrate max/emp/enhanced for 1000.

I never use fireballs or scorching rays in pvp...not as fun.

max/emp/enhanced chain lightning is rather fun as people seldom use elec resist and if you do not save you are dead..up to three....

ahh...ya.....love the pvp....

Gaermain
10-11-2007, 10:04 AM
Can i get a weapon that hits 200+ everytime verse someone with 4x as many buffs? that might help some whatcha think? One more thing. It has to hit every other swing

Kthxbye

I think that would help. However, you'd only be able to swing that particular weapon 20 times per rest shrine in a dungeon. Also, you couldn't carry any other weapons. Pick your mobs carefully?

A caster has an animation. Watch it. Move out of the way. You're not going to get one-shotted with MM. You're going to get one-shotted with an AOE or a ray spell...both of which you can dodge.

Also, when you get within proximity of a caster your first action should not be a swing...it should be a trip. At that point in time...you'll likely "one shot" a caster by the time your attack sequence is completed. If you leave the caster standing...they'll get away. Most arcanes, by high levels, are masters of aggro management and like to squirm, jump, and dodge their way out of trouble ;)

Players have good saves, a lot of arcanes will also debuff (dispell, enervate, etc) and then go for the instant-kill spell. There is a pair of goggles with a deathward clicky as an end-reward in Tangleroot - go pick them up.

There are many, many melee characters that can hold their own with casters. Watch how they move, look at their buffs. If you run straight for a caster every single time you're going to get dropped before you're halfway across the room...

AkromaAoW
10-11-2007, 10:13 AM
Anyone that began playing D&D in the early days knows that a beginning caster (magic user in those days) was a frail thing that the party protected. A low level fighter could kill a low level caster just by looking at him or her. However, a caster that was successfully protected grew to become a powerful ally, and it would take a strong party (not individual, unlesss that indivudual was also a high level caster) and a good bit of team work to defeat a single high level mage. In other words, classes were not equal or balanced at all levels. It doesn't surprise any long time D&D player that going up against a high level caster one-on-one in pvp will most likely see the caster turning the opponent into a toad...

Aspenor
10-11-2007, 10:14 AM
Notice that the mod 5 raid boss happens to be a spellcaster?? I think that should be an indication that high levels lead to nasty magic.

Twerpp
10-11-2007, 02:28 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

Nah just refer to the same foul play they do, jump down take your one-shots trip,stun,fas,cripple what have you and if it doesnt work out run like hell in a zig-zag pattern jumping up and down like an idiot.

Anyway you are supposed to fear high level arcanes, they can toss fireballs that leave craters and cast spells that kill you with a single word. Where a higher level fighter gets another BAB or an extra attack.

Strakeln
10-11-2007, 02:53 PM
Can i get a weapon that hits 200+ everytime verse someone with 4x as many buffs? that might help some whatcha think? One more thing. It has to hit every other swing

KthxbyeWell, melees can get weapons that do "infinite" damage - a vorpal could take down the caster with 1000HP (if they existed) in one shot.

Melees have counters available for the vast majority of arcane tricks. Silver Flame pendant, Fire Greaves, Djinn Ring are all a very good start. If you don't believe me, stop by Khyber and try to get a scorching ray to do anything worthwhile to Rhadaym-somemorewordsinhere-ths (can't remember how to spell his name).

Perceval418
10-11-2007, 03:00 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

Clerics can usually kill casters
casters can usually kill fighters
fighters can usually kill archers
archers usually die...

Oran_Lathor
10-11-2007, 04:10 PM
I can't believe no one has mentioned this, but a well-played, well equipped ranger is going to kill casters at *least* 50/50. Sure mages slaughter melees, but rangers do well. This is the balance in lots of pvp systems.

Aspenor
10-11-2007, 04:13 PM
I can't believe no one has mentioned this, but a well-played, well equipped ranger is going to kill casters at *least* 50/50. Sure mages slaughter melees, but rangers do well. This is the balance in lots of pvp systems.

A ranger with the DQ goggles and a wounding of puncturing bow is not to be trifled with in PvP.

Lifespawn
10-11-2007, 04:31 PM
ex look me up tonight on any of my listed chars i'll show you how to fight casters.

Strakeln
10-11-2007, 04:54 PM
I can't believe no one has mentioned this, but a well-played, well equipped ranger is going to kill casters at *least* 50/50. Sure mages slaughter melees, but rangers do well. This is the balance in lots of pvp systems.I'm gonna have to disagree with this. I think the ratio of ranger:caster varies based on the situation. Here's what I mean.

Situation 1: ranger waits on the platform until he has a good shot, or the caster is not paying attention. Triggers manyshot, drops down, caster dead in a couple of plucks. Ranger jumps to the ladder and back to safety, waits two minutes and does it again. Not to point out anyone in particular but I do know a certain raanger that loves to do this (*cough*). Put simply, this is a cheap way to poach kills, but completely legal and practically expected in the tavern brawl areas. The ranger using this "method" with the right bow will win 90-95% of the time, if not more.

Situation 2: caster knows ranger is coming after them (as opposed to finding out after 15 points of con damage). Caster simply needs to dodge/block/hide well enough for 20 seconds, then unleash hell. I'd say this situation favors the caster, 70/30 or so.

Unfortunately, anytime I see a ranger in the pit, they're employing the first tactic. Poor form.

Raithe
10-11-2007, 05:10 PM
No one should believe all these people saying that Dungeons & Dragons was not designed for PvP. It was absolutely designed for PvP, and was an evolution of a game called Chainmail, which was a strategic combat game similar to Chess. The false assumption that pawns should work like queens is what is hampering the OP. Pawns don't work like queens... but they can still take the queen if the queen goes to the wrong square.

If people look closely at the names of drow, kobolds, hobgoblins, orcs, ogres, trolls, and giants they will notice that those names give a clue about who we are fighting against in this game. Ourselves! Yep, it is caster, cleric, ranger, rogue, bard, and barbarian against... guess it.. caster, cleric, ranger, rogue, bard, and barbarian. The only difference is they had to cheat on the opponents' stats to make them semi-viable, and the opponents are played by a pitifully stupid computer.

My advice: start making some good PvP allies, and play the team versions. Pit brawling has no strategies and no results that are even remotely appealing.

Gaermain
10-11-2007, 05:21 PM
A ranger with the DQ goggles and a wounding of puncturing bow is not to be trifled with in PvP.

Exactly. They are worse than the drow sorc/pally...things.

=)

jonnyb
10-11-2007, 05:43 PM
ok i get it...Its like buying a new car with no wheels.

There is one thing that you (and quite a few others) obviously don't understand. DDO was based off of a Pen and Paper (PnP) game. in that game you never fought other players. you fight monster in quests. if you ever fought something that could be a player character it was toned down and played in a way that would cause a party wipe. In other words what i'm saying is that PvP is not, and never will be the main focus of this game due to the fact that the game this mmo is based off of does not and never will focus on PvP

side note: what I mean by PvP is tavern brawl, the team forms (death match and capture the flag) are balanced

ethsar46
10-11-2007, 05:50 PM
Or if you that upset just make a Batman like most people i see cleaning up in PvP. Scorching ray is the best dmg spell for a caster to use in PvP since it doesnt have a save, you could also trying avoiding it....

Alot of the direct damage spells have counters to them, ie. Shield, DW, resists/prots, saves. Which you can easily get clickies, pots and other items to provide those for you.

I always see the 9fighter/2rogue/3pally batmans owning most pure class toons in the pvp.

And since a large majority of the player base doesnt PvP theres no way they'll change sorc/wiz just for pvp. The last thing i wanna see is turbine start swinging around a "nerf" bat just because of pvp in a mostly non-pvp base game.

Taoxos
10-11-2007, 06:30 PM
There is one thing that you (and quite a few others) obviously don't understand. DDO was based off of a Pen and Paper (PnP) game. in that game you never fought other players. you fight monster in quests. if you ever fought something that could be a player character it was toned down and played in a way that would cause a party wipe. In other words what i'm saying is that PvP is not, and never will be the main focus of this game due to the fact that the game this mmo is based off of does not and never will focus on PvP

side note: what I mean by PvP is tavern brawl, the team forms (death match and capture the flag) are balanced
Sorry, man...but the DM is a player...and since he makes the rules, and the NPCs, they're technically DM Player Characters...which makes EVERY fight a PvP...and it's against a far superior oppoenent (because the DM can change any effect he wants and do whatever he wants...including Mass Finger of Death by a 3rd lvl ranger with a sweet behind item...)...

While I'll agree that DDO is an MMO and, therefore, not a PvP oriented game (WoW is an exception to that generalization...), that PvP isn't going to be balanced...in the sense that one class can take on another class of equal ability... The game is designed to be a team vs team situation, so your 14 Ftr shouldn't be going up against the 14 Sorc...ever... Get a Rgr and Clr to help out...or something...or your own personal buffing machine (some combination of Brd/Wiz...lol).

And remember...pancakes...

BigNastyMP
10-11-2007, 06:59 PM
Exactly one year ago there was a large, popular post here about casters. It was entitled "Wizard Playability" and the main hypothesis was:
"The collective and persistent; direct and indirect; nerfing of the wizard class has effectively negated the value of the class."

I disagreed with that hypothesis then, I still disagree with that statement. It is good to finally see, one year later, that people are finally starting to just begin to pretend to understand half of the potential possibility that wizards and our less intelligent but much more handsome counterparts possess.

Alavatar
10-11-2007, 07:23 PM
Sorry, man...but the DM is a player...and since he makes the rules, and the NPCs, they're technically DM Player Characters...which makes EVERY fight a PvP...and it's against a far superior oppoenent (because the DM can change any effect he wants and do whatever he wants...including Mass Finger of Death by a 3rd lvl ranger with a sweet behind item...)...

I completely disagree with the statements "the DM is a player" and "which makes EVERY fight a PvP". Too many people try to use that argument as a justification for PvP and it is completely false. If you like PvP in your PnP game, then by all means go for it. Just because the DM is a real person does not mean that fighting monsters controlled by the DM is "PvP".

The DM is the manager of the gaming environment. He is not constrained to the same rules a player is because he is there to ensure that EVERYONE has fun. If it were true PvP against the DM then the DM would be trying to win and as an omnipotent being that can do whatever they want and alter the rules however the feel they could win any and all encounters they felt like. A good DM does not try to win, but instead tries to offer a challenge for his players while ensuring that the game is fun. Therefore, fighting monsters in a PnP campaign is not "PvP".

Craggath
10-11-2007, 07:31 PM
I couldn't resist making a reply. I really like the tavern brawl. I usually tavern brawl with Craggath (wiz 13) or Threar (clr 9). I am not a very good PvP'er and any well played character around my level can kill me. However, I like the challenge, and I think its great fun.

I don't think that casters own all in PvP. It's quite possible for a melee with a high jump and a decent striding item to keep behind a caster and take them down, or at least stay out of their line of sight for long enough to have a chance.

Besides, PvP is not what this game is meant for. It's just a fun aside that certain people enjoy. If you get killed alot and don't like that, try to think "What can I/the melees do differently?", instead of "PvP is broken 'cause these dudes keep owning me/melees."

I get get killed every time I jump into the tavern brawl sooner or later, but I don't think PvP is broken.

Raithe
10-11-2007, 07:48 PM
Just because the DM is a real person does not mean that fighting monsters controlled by the DM is "PvP".


Actually, if you look at the definitions of PvP and PvE under Wikipedia, that is exactly what it means.

PvP = human player vs. human player
PvE = human player vs. computer environment

People need to stop contorting definitions because they have a great fear of entering into opposed competition with another human.

EDIT: added the word "opposed"

Alavatar
10-11-2007, 07:58 PM
Actually, if you look at the definitions of PvP and PvE under Wikipedia, that is exactly what it means.

PvP = human player vs. human player
PvE = human player vs. computer environment

People need to stop contorting definitions because they have a great fear of entering into opposed competition with another human.

EDIT: added the word "opposed"

And we all know that Wikipedia is infallible. :rolleyes:

If you are "PvPing" against (edit: i.e. playing a campaign with) a DM are you competing against them? Per your post PvP = "opposed competition with another human". The DM should not be "competition", they should be providing a game that is challenging and fun.

By your Wikipedia quote, would a NWN2 campaign that is created by a human and overseen by a human during play yet has the monsters and NPCs scripted be "PvP" or "PvE"? While the script is "computer environment" it is still being overseen by the DM, therefore a human is still controlling the situation.

Edit: I am not arguing against PvP. I am debating against the argument that a DM is a "player" and therefore PnP play is "PvP".

Edit2: A few more things:

1) Your Wikipedia expressly defined PvP as an aspect of gameplay for video games and to a lesser extent tradtional RPGs and LARPs. It did not go into detail about traditional RPGs, but it did a bit about LARPs. Basically, for LARPs, PvP happens between the players, not the plot team (plot is essentially the DM of LARPs). Therefore, fighting an NPC in a LARP is not PvP because the NPC is a Non-player-character controlled by plot/GM/DM/ST/whatever.

Therefore, the same applies to traditional PnP games. The monsters and characters a DM controls are Non-Player-Characters, therefore not players, and therefore not PvP.

2) If you fought against a DM in DDO who has full DM abilities at the time of the battle do you seriously think that would be PvP? The DM could spawn hundreds of Beholders to ray down their opponent and make themselves immune to all effects. How is that "PvP"? The opponent has absolutely no chance of winning against someone with power like that.

Elthbert
10-11-2007, 08:14 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

Your on crack, Clerics are grossly overpowered in pv.... Um everywhere. What a wizard can do with scorching ray a cleric can do and there is NO resistance versus light, oh yeah and they get plate and a D8.

A melee guy who can get in close can toast a wizard or sorcerer in no time. I can't tell you how many times my wizy has been tosted by a barbarian AFTER I hit him with the maximized empowered scorching ray. In fact arcanes are greatly gimped in PVP and have access to a pitance of their spells. Of course NO changes should be made to balance forPVP under any circumstances.

MysticTheurge
10-11-2007, 08:27 PM
No one should believe all these people saying that Dungeons & Dragons was not designed for PvP. It was absolutely designed for PvP, and was an evolution of a game called Chainmail, which was a strategic combat game similar to Chess. The false assumption that pawns should work like queens is what is hampering the OP. Pawns don't work like queens... but they can still take the queen if the queen goes to the wrong square.

I think it would be more accurate to interpret people as saying D&D is not designed to be perfectly balanced for one-on-one PvP.

It does do fairly well with team vs. team PvP. Which is sort of what you're describing.

Raithe
10-11-2007, 08:43 PM
If you are "PvPing" against (edit: i.e. playing a campaign with) a DM are you competing against them? Per your post PvP = "opposed competition with another human". The DM should not be "competition", they should be providing a game that is challenging and fun.


I get the impression from this post that you don't generally play D&D, you perform it.

When the DM is the environment (he looks at the fact that you entered a trap square location and applies the rules in the module materials and/or game manual), he is not competing against you. When he is acting as a giant snake against the group of adventurers, I would call that opposed competition.



By your Wikipedia quote, would a NWN2 campaign that is created by a human and overseen by a human during play yet has the monsters and NPCs scripted be "PvP" or "PvE"? While the script is "computer environment" it is still being overseen by the DM, therefore a human is still controlling the situation.


Of course there are ways to blur the distinction. If you will notice, most of us saying that PnP is PvP are merely speaking out in opposition to a bunch of people decrying PnP as specifically anti-PvP. The truth is these terms do not really belong outside the realm of online gaming.



...
Therefore, the same applies to traditional PnP games. The monsters and characters a DM controls are Non-Player-Characters, therefore not players, and therefore not PvP.




Live action role-playing games (LARPs) have always featured player versus player conflicts, partly because even in PvM games the monsters are played by other players ('monster crew') rather than by GMs/referees/computers


Here Wikipedia seems to be losing track of its definitions. It's basically saying PvM can contain PvP because the monsters are being run by players... which just goes to show that the terms do not really apply very well outside the online gaming arena.

My personal point of view is that if the DM were to set up a script that he followed when a player encountered a monster, and held to that script without making any judgements on the fly... that would be PvE and not PvP. I'm not sure anyone cares though.



2) If you fought against a DM in DDO who has full DM abilities at the time of the battle do you seriously think that would be PvP? The DM could spawn hundreds of Beholders to ray down their opponent and make themselves immune to all effects. How is that "PvP"? The opponent has absolutely no chance of winning against someone with power like that.

That would be unbalanced PvP, and the fact that some tabletop games incorporated the idea of a substantial DM character furthers the argument of the DM as a human player.

The bottom line is that the terms PvP and PvE were spawned by the online gaming community to distinguish between fighting an intelligence versus fighting a system.

The other bottom line is that PvP is already in DDO and won't be taken out before the game expires. Rather than limit the possibilities in a game already severely lacking, we should all be trying to find ways to make current mechanics provide some level of entertainment.

HumanRogue
10-11-2007, 08:49 PM
Rather than limit the possibilities in a game already severely lacking, we should all be trying to find ways to make current mechanics provide some level of entertainment.

Agreed!

Raithe
10-11-2007, 08:59 PM
I think it would be more accurate to interpret people as saying D&D is not designed to be perfectly balanced for one-on-one PvP.


You might be right, but they should probably be more careful about their blanket statements.



It does do fairly well with team vs. team PvP. Which is precisely what you're describing.

Fixed.

Brianius
10-11-2007, 09:19 PM
the issue here is not that the game is unbalinced but how quickly we can get ex uber

nbhs275
10-11-2007, 10:24 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

DDO is not balance for PVP. Deal with it. Its 1% of the game. Roll a caster if you really care about pvp.

Alavatar
10-11-2007, 11:24 PM
I get the impression from this post that you don't generally play D&D, you perform it.

I have no idea what you mean. I play D&D tabletop on a regular basis as well as partake in a couple LARPs.


When the DM is the environment (he looks at the fact that you entered a trap square location and applies the rules in the module materials and/or game manual), he is not competing against you. When he is acting as a giant snake against the group of adventurers, I would call that opposed competition.

If the DM's goal was to win then I agree that it is opposed competition. Since the DM's goal is not to kill you, but to provide a challenge, I do not agree with you. If a character happens to die is besides the point.


Of course there are ways to blur the distinction. If you will notice, most of us saying that PnP is PvP are merely speaking out in opposition to a bunch of people decrying PnP as specifically anti-PvP. The truth is these terms do not really belong outside the realm of online gaming.

Here Wikipedia seems to be losing track of its definitions. It's basically saying PvM can contain PvP because the monsters are being run by players... which just goes to show that the terms do not really apply very well outside the online gaming arena.

My personal point of view is that if the DM were to set up a script that he followed when a player encountered a monster, and held to that script without making any judgements on the fly... that would be PvE and not PvP. I'm not sure anyone cares though.

I agree. That is what I am saying.


That would be unbalanced PvP, and the fact that some tabletop games incorporated the idea of a substantial DM character furthers the argument of the DM as a human player.

The DM doesn't even have to be a "DM" character for this. A Dev or DM can take over the Stormreaver, for instance, and bestow extra bonuses.


The bottom line is that the terms PvP and PvE were spawned by the online gaming community to distinguish between fighting an intelligence versus fighting a system.

The other bottom line is that PvP is already in DDO and won't be taken out before the game expires. Rather than limit the possibilities in a game already severely lacking, we should all be trying to find ways to make current mechanics provide some level of entertainment.

1.) I am no longer arguing against PvP in an MMO. I have stopped caring. As long as there isn't any 'balancing in the name of PvP' that is.

2.) I It seems that we agree that PvP and PvE are not valid terms for application beyond online gaming. That is all I was trying to say.

Raithe
10-11-2007, 11:45 PM
If the DM's goal was to win then I agree that it is opposed competition. Since the DM's goal is not to kill you, but to provide a challenge, I do not agree with you. If a character happens to die is besides the point.


I wouldn't bother posting again, but I think this is something that is direly in need of clarification. PvP is not necessarily about killing, and the Wikipedia makes this clear in several locations (it does a fairly good job of separating the concepts of PvP and player killing, or PKing). The DM is opposing the player characters, similar to the way a tennis player opposes another without desiring to kill. Both activities would qualify as PvP.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-11-2007, 11:54 PM
and the Wikipedia makes this clear in several locations .

It's funny how people think Wikipedia is a reliable source for anything... Its hardly an authorative source. It's just a bunch of people who typed stuff in. It doesn't meet the standards that say and encyclopia would be required to follow.

TreknaQudane
10-11-2007, 11:57 PM
It's funny how people think Wikipedia is a reliable source for anything... Its hardly an authorative source. It's just a bunch of people who typed stuff in. It doesn't meet the standards that say and encyclopia would be required to follow.

But does it meet a higher standard than Dan Rather :)?

Raithe
10-12-2007, 12:04 AM
It's funny how people think Wikipedia is a reliable source for anything... Its hardly an authorative source. It's just a bunch of people who typed stuff in. It doesn't meet the standards that say and encyclopia would be required to follow.

We're a ways off the tracks now, but what the heck...

What are these standards that real encyclopedias use that you hold in such high regard?

And are you even going to be able to look up terms like PvP and PvE in the standard encyclopedia?

Wikipedia can be a set of standards that people can agree on. In this particular case we were having trouble agreeing on some semantics, and I chose to use the most probable source that would include definitions for the terms that were under scrutiny.

I would also add, as someone who was an early America Online member and played Neverwinter Nights, played both Gemstone III and Dragon's Gate on GEnie, played Diablo, Diablo II, and have been an avid online RPGer for over 2-1/2 decades, I find Wikipedia's description of the terms to be adequate, despite being mildly ambiguous.

kudesnik
10-12-2007, 12:43 AM
My 5 cents, sorcs and wizzy not really overpowered, I've been killed many many times by clerics, ranges, barbs, fighters. Each class if u know how to play can be very deadly in pvp.

nbhs275
10-12-2007, 12:57 AM
I have no idea what you mean. I play D&D tabletop on a regular basis as well as partake in a couple LARPS



BURN THE LARPER!!





That is all

wundernewb
10-12-2007, 07:37 AM
No one should believe all these people saying that Dungeons & Dragons was not designed for PvP. It was absolutely designed for PvP, and was an evolution of a game called Chainmail, which was a strategic combat game similar to Chess.



While not being all that familiar with the original Chainmail, I do seem to recall somehow that you played it against another person, like Chess.

D&D, through its evolution from Chainmail, turned out as a game that is not played against another person. (at least if you have a halfway competent DM)

Alavatar
10-12-2007, 10:30 AM
I wouldn't bother posting again, but I think this is something that is direly in need of clarification. PvP is not necessarily about killing, and the Wikipedia makes this clear in several locations (it does a fairly good job of separating the concepts of PvP and player killing, or PKing). The DM is opposing the player characters, similar to the way a tennis player opposes another without desiring to kill. Both activities would qualify as PvP.

1.) I agree with the others that Wikipedia is fallible; I could go in there and edit it to suit my means if I wanted. Despite that, even the section on PvP in Wikipedia is flagged as not being to Wikipedia's standards and is therefore doubly fallible.

2.) Player versus Player implies competition between players where both players have the goal of winning and beating the opponent. If you are playing a tabletop game with a DM/ST/GM/whatever I do not consider that PvP because you are not against them. You are playing with them. The DM should not be out to win, therefore it is not competition. While the DM may provide opposition for your party of friends, he is not actively opposing your party, nor is he competing against your party. Heck, I have played in several campaigns where the DM helped the party quite often. Therefore, not PvP. Your tennis analogy is based on the fact that the two athletes are trying to win.

3.) Chainmail was more like Warhammer. It evolved into a dungeon crawl when some players decided to apply personalities to their characters and wanted to persue personal adventures. This evolution turned from PvP to more a partnership. The DM provides the challege (be it a quest, tournament, or survival situation) and the players play through the challenge.

4.) As we agreed on earlier, PvP and PvE do not translate well outside of a video game.

Alavatar
10-12-2007, 10:33 AM
BURN THE LARPER!!





That is all

You should try it. :D It is actually quite entertaining and provides much more excersise then sitting in front of a computer or around a table does.

Alavatar
10-12-2007, 10:50 AM
What are these standards that real encyclopedias use that you hold in such high regard?

Well, real encyclodepias and articles with authority are written by subject matter experts and then reviewed by other subject matter experts. Once all of the subject matter experts agree/accept the paper/journal/article then it becomes a peer-reviewed article, vastly increasing it's authority on the subject.

Wikipedia can be editted by anyone who feels like it. Therefore, the information provided is often biased and can lead to misconceptions.


And are you even going to be able to look up terms like PvP and PvE in the standard encyclopedia?

PvP and PvE are slang terms. As slang, they are not in dictionaries or encyclopedias until they become "the norm" or are of a certain age. (except, of course, slang dictionaries or dictionaries that note that slang is included)


Wikipedia can be a set of standards that people can agree on. In this particular case we were having trouble agreeing on some semantics, and I chose to use the most probable source that would include definitions for the terms that were under scrutiny.

While some people may agree on the Wikipedia entry there are undoubtedly people who disagree. And those people who disagree are free to alter the entry. Therefore, since the entry is subject to change, it is fallible.


I would also add, as someone who was an early America Online member and played Neverwinter Nights, played both Gemstone III and Dragon's Gate on GEnie, played Diablo, Diablo II, and have been an avid online RPGer for over 2-1/2 decades, I find Wikipedia's description of the terms to be adequate, despite being mildly ambiguous.

I agree with Wikipedia's definition of PvP as applied to video games. I do not agree with their application of it to traditional RPGs nor do I agree with their statement that PvM = PvP.

MysticTheurge
10-12-2007, 11:03 AM
You should try it. :D It is actually quite entertaining and provides much more excersise then sitting in front of a computer or around a table does.

Yeah, but... the sun is trying to kill me (http://www.jinx.com/men/shirts/geek/the_sun_is_trying_to_kill_me.html?catid=1).

nbhs275
10-12-2007, 11:10 AM
You should try it. :D It is actually quite entertaining and provides much more excersise then sitting in front of a computer or around a table does.

naw, i want exercise ill hit the gym and lift or wreslte.. dont feel like prancing around in the woods yelling "stop moving! your fascinated!" or Lightning bolt! lightning bolt! magic missle!"

:)

Alavatar
10-12-2007, 11:31 AM
naw, i want exercise ill hit the gym and lift or wreslte.. dont feel like prancing around in the woods yelling "stop moving! your fascinated!" or Lightning bolt! lightning bolt! magic missle!"

:)

Fair enough. :)

I am one of those people who won't excersise unless what I am doing happens to contain physical activity. My high metabolism never gave me a cause to seek out excersise, and my wrestling coach loved the fact that I didn't have to cut down on eating to make weight. :D Although my team-mates were often jealous...

nbhs275
10-12-2007, 11:50 AM
Fair enough. :)

I am one of those people who won't excersise unless what I am doing happens to contain physical activity. My high metabolism never gave me a cause to seek out excersise, and my wrestling coach loved the fact that I didn't have to cut down on eating to make weight. :D Although my team-mates were often jealous...

I was a heavywieght and weight was a problem at the beginning of my junior season. I started football at 325, and got into wrestling at 300. After 2 weeks of basically starvation(i drank about 6 bottles of water and 2000 calories over 12 days) and was at 274 come our first weekend tourney. Of course i gained about 3 pounds that day...even though i vomited for like 30 minutes after every match. Lol going from a liquid diet to solid food isnt a great idea. I ended that season at 255.

I spent alot of practices in a trash bag with 2-3 tshirts and a hoodie over it.
I lost 6 pounds in sweat once. I cut alot.

But its worth it. Especially when it give you memories like the once i have.

The mats also the only place you can give someone a 3 inch scar on their head or break thier arm and have no retribution or penalty.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2007, 12:03 PM
We're a ways off the tracks now, but what the heck...

What are these standards that real encyclopedias use that you hold in such high regard?.

Wikki is just random people giving opinions. Reputable sources have standards for content and independant review. I work in a University and see students failing assignments all the time because they don't seem to know how to distingish between real sources and hearsay (usually junky web site) sources.

Riddikulus
10-12-2007, 12:22 PM
Wikki is just random people giving opinions. Reputable sources have standards for content and independant review. I work in a University and see students failing assignments all the time because they don't seem to know how to distingish between real sources and hearsay (usually junky web site) sources.
Checking sources is certainly a skill that needs to be worked on by many people, all the way up to Dan Rather. ;)

I will use Wikipedia as a first search most of the time. It's not just a collection of opinions... a lot of the articles are reviewed and linked to sources making it a huge time saver.

If Wiki says the information is conforming and looks reasonable to me I don't typically have any reason to doubt it, though I will usually look at some of the linked sources to gauge how reliable the information might be.

If Wiki says the information is disputed or has no sources like it does with the PvP entry, then I'll go do a more general google search to look for more consensus.

That said, the same goes for any encyclopedia, even the "big" ones. Even if they are reputable, independent and reviewed they are still biased by the people that wrote them, especially concerning historical events.

Drider
10-12-2007, 01:38 PM
You should try it. :D It is actually quite entertaining and provides much more excersise then sitting in front of a computer or around a table does.


I got talked into going to a Larp weekend thing once. I never got to the larping as I was too busy being drunk and in other ways... too out of it to do anything.

However, it's things like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ04mfAY2BU&mode=related&search=) that make me glad I didn't participate.

Drider
10-12-2007, 01:40 PM
Checking sources is certainly a skill that needs to be worked on by many people, all the way up to Dan Rather. ;)

I will use Wikipedia as a first search most of the time. It's not just a collection of opinions... a lot of the articles are reviewed and linked to sources making it a huge time saver.

If Wiki says the information is conforming and looks reasonable to me I don't typically have any reason to doubt it, though I will usually look at some of the linked sources to gauge how reliable the information might be.

If Wiki says the information is disputed or has no sources like it does with the PvP entry, then I'll go do a more general google search to look for more consensus.

That said, the same goes for any encyclopedia, even the "big" ones. Even if they are reputable, independent and reviewed they are still biased by the people that wrote them, especially concerning historical events.

I usually only use Wiki more for looking up pop culture references and to look up some basic information.. but it should never be used as a credible source for almost anything.

Alavatar
10-12-2007, 01:40 PM
That said, the same goes for any encyclopedia, even the "big" ones. Even if they are reputable, independent and reviewed they are still biased by the people that wrote them, especially concerning historical events.

Which is why the good ones have a good bibliography where their sources can be researched. I wouldn't say they are automatically biased, but I do agree that it is easier for an article to be biased if it is not backed up by a quantitative analysis (physical science vs. social science).

Alavatar
10-12-2007, 01:59 PM
I got talked into going to a Larp weekend thing once. I never got to the larping as I was too busy being drunk and in other ways... too out of it to do anything.

However, it's things like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ04mfAY2BU&mode=related&search=) that make me glad I didn't participate.

Look into the SCA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWZaSp-fsY&mode=related&search=) at www.sca.org (http://www.sca.org) because they are more full-contact. They use rattan weapons wrapped in a thin layer of tape. The tape is only used to keep the weapons from splintering. They're weapons are heavy, their armor is heavy (unless you are crazy and go with the bare minimum required of elbows, knees, spine, sternum, helmet, and throat protection), and the swings are HARD. The idea is that you need to swing hard enough that if the weapon were real it would get through their armor. Legal targets include: Everything except the hands and below the knees. Even the groin is a legal target. I have been smacked there many times, and boy was I glad I wore a cup!

Many nights I would come home from fighter's practice with bruises all along my shoulders and thighs! It takes a special kind of masochist to be a heavy fighter in the SCA. :D

Edit: I also recommend checking out www.waveraper.com (http://www.waveraper.com) (might not be safe for work). They have an invite-only event that has special fighting tournaments with special Ships Crew rules, including a Ring of Fire fight. They post pictures on this site.

Edit2: And speaking of being drunk, the SCA heavy fighters are notorious for bludgeoning each other for a while, then getting as drunk as possible afterwards. :)

Elthbert
10-15-2007, 12:20 AM
Look into the SCA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWZaSp-fsY&mode=related&search=) at www.sca.org (http://www.sca.org) because they are more full-contact. They use rattan weapons wrapped in a thin layer of tape. The tape is only used to keep the weapons from splintering. They're weapons are heavy, their armor is heavy (unless you are crazy and go with the bare minimum required of elbows, knees, spine, sternum, helmet, and throat protection), and the swings are HARD. The idea is that you need to swing hard enough that if the weapon were real it would get through their armor. Legal targets include: Everything except the hands and below the knees. Even the groin is a legal target. I have been smacked there many times, and boy was I glad I wore a cup!

Many nights I would come home from fighter's practice with bruises all along my shoulders and thighs! It takes a special kind of masochist to be a heavy fighter in the SCA. :D

Edit: I also recommend checking out www.waveraper.com (http://www.waveraper.com) (might not be safe for work). They have an invite-only event that has special fighting tournaments with special Ships Crew rules, including a Ring of Fire fight. They post pictures on this site.

Edit2: And speaking of being drunk, the SCA heavy fighters are notorious for bludgeoning each other for a while, then getting as drunk as possible afterwards. :)

If you are really interested in learning to actually use sword for real, look up ARMA ( THe Assosiation for Renaissance Martial Arts) the new incarnation of HACA ( Historical Armed Combat Assosiation)

Ekental
10-15-2007, 03:52 AM
Back on topic...

Go play a ranger, perhaps ranger/pally, perhaps a dwarf, drow works well too. Take the favored enemies for the generic races, take the appropriate enhancements, hop into PvP. You'll have the upper hand on casters.

twix
10-15-2007, 06:41 AM
Who cares if its unbalanced?Its for fun to waste time inbetween quests.Im in pvp all the time.Most casters dont stand a chance against my barb.Trip, two swings later they are dead.Then there are casters which are more then scorching ray and actually use a little skill in the pit and yes it can seem unbalanced.So what? Your dead. Now press ok eat some food and jump back down for an ass whooping.No big deal.No xp debt.Who cares?Or if you know casters will own you why fight them? Most skill in pvp is mellee toons anyways.Any caster can one hit you but can you kill that fighter ,barb or pally one on one?.Thats where youll know if your skilled in pvp not because a caster can kill you.And if your not skilled in pvp then take it for what it is FUN.Do you do good in quests? If yes then who cares about pvp.I just use it to kill time.Thats all its there for.

Spookydodger
10-15-2007, 07:03 AM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

I have seen a lot of "you're just whining" replies, and not much content or suggestions. They may exist, but in case they don't:

For most of these insane-damage spells, evasion works wonders. As long as you have the saves to prevent being somehow immobilized, this is a way to prevent all but ray-spells (scorching ray, disintegrate, etc).

Now, a significant trick to avoiding all such spells that are directed is to strafe. Moving side to side will often find that fireballs and scorching rays miss you completely.

For cone-effects, this can be more problematic. However, cone effect spells are either limited in range, or do not have good damage.

Cloud effect spells are not available in the standard brawling tavern. They are only an issue in the actual arenas.

This leaves really only direct-damage spells as an issue. Spells like Harm, for example, or the saved-effect of damage from a Destruction. Most of these can be negated by deathward.

Though I must say, there is one key tactic to negating all of these massive-damage spells... line-of-sight.

Most taverns don't simply have a large, empty room. Use cover to your advantage and make them come to you. Ranged weapons can get off their shots quicker than spells, use those doorways to your advantage.

Yes, huge fireballs are a big issue in combat. Then again, scorching rays are available for level 3 casters. At 20 points or so a pop, they're still quite deadly to a melee combatant. This isn't a new problem.

clay2
10-15-2007, 07:45 AM
easy solution for fireball... evasion...

move laterally as you close to avoid the ray spells... move behind the casters... jump run... kite...

roll a bard and fascinate them-dance them-wound them... they have a low con.

They are overpowered but also have weaknesses...

I have seen many melee characters rule the pits... but you won't if you have low saves. If PvP is really important to you, read the build boards and build a toon for PvP...

Riggs
10-15-2007, 01:07 PM
Never have been, never should be. D&D is 'balanced' for a group of players vs a group of monsters. And one of the tougher fights was always a group of npcs high level classes, using abilities and tactics the players could use back on them.

As many have posted there are ways to evade spells. In D&D unless you used some kind of vaiant spell enhencers, a high save melee could close to a caster(if they were standing on the ground and in sight), and the caster only has 1 shot to take them out before getting hit and killed pretty much. A prepared caster could however kill anyone else because a melee would not be able to reach them while being pummeled with spells.

D&D is not WoW, there is no balance for pvp. End of story.

Riggs
10-15-2007, 01:19 PM
Oh yeah, wait until empowered maximized Horrid Wilting(no resists to stop damage). Polar ray. Or Cleric Implosion. Or Shapechange. Time stop. Imprisonment. Wail of the Banshee (everyone in the room will save or die). Prismatic Sphere (make 7 saves, roll a 1 on any 4 of them and die) Wish.

Unbalanced now? it gets much worse.

ErgonomicCat
10-15-2007, 02:14 PM
While not being all that familiar with the original Chainmail, I do seem to recall somehow that you played it against another person, like Chess.

D&D, through its evolution from Chainmail, turned out as a game that is not played against another person. (at least if you have a halfway competent DM)

Chainmail is a lot like the new DnD Minis game (in fact, many chainmail figures are legal for play in DnD Minis). It was two players controlling squads, which were engaging in combat.

DnD was written up as a sort of structure to put around the actual combat, but it's not as though DnD is Chainmail 4.0 or anything.

Maybe I'm just old, but it shivers my soul to see people trying to apply MMO concepts like PvE and PvP to an RPG.

The key component of PvE or PvP play is that someone wins, and someone loses.

When the PCs defeat an encounter, which they enjoyed, both the PCs and the DM win. It's not a competition.

The DM runs the monsters, but the DM's goal is *not* to defeat the players. It is to provide the players with a challenge that they will enjoy, and, per the rules, will exhaust 25% of their resources to overcome. Some people play with higher power encounters (I'm one), but even then, the DM is not attempting to defeat the players, he's just trying to provide a much more lethal environment where the challenge is heightened. If there's a total party kill, the DM should not, in general, say "Yes! I have won, you have lost!"

If you're playing that version, i'd recommend Hackmaster, Descent, or just reading Knights of the Dinner Table until you stop. ;)

Shaamis
10-15-2007, 02:31 PM
So you agree its one sided also.
thanks

D&D and DDO are rules not around balancing the classes for PvP. It is a cooperative game, for group playing, as a team.

PvP gripes/groans about "...mages are more powerful than fighters, it's unfair..." will never coerce Turbine to balance the classes for PvP.

I have played/payed for DDO subscription, and if they go back on this rule, I'm gone.

ErgonomicCat
10-15-2007, 03:25 PM
D&D and DDO are rules not around balancing the classes for PvP. It is a cooperative game, for group playing, as a team.

PvP gripes/groans about "...mages are more powerful than fighters, it's unfair..." will never coerce Turbine to balance the classes for PvP.

I have played/payed for DDO subscription, and if they go back on this rule, I'm gone.

Agreed.

If they wanted to go the CoH route, where powers work differently in PvP than in PvE, that would be possibly acceptable. Except I don't want dev resources going there, with the limited amount DDO has.

Basically, if it's not critical, it's nothing. ;)

I assume there's no ring of counterspelling in DDO? That's one of the required items if you're planning to fight a 1 vs 1 duel in PnP. Either to hold Dispel Magic, to keep your buffs, or to counter the one uber spell you fear...

But the way a PnP melee beats a caster 1 vs 1 is by buying stuff that lets them counter all the caster's advantages. That's the way it will have to be in DDO too, but there's not as much stuff.

Raithe
10-15-2007, 04:02 PM
It is to provide the players with a challenge that they will enjoy, and, per the rules, will exhaust 25% of their resources to overcome.

Ah, I see. You are saying that the players would love to see 25% of their resources exhausted. They would never want to somehow avoid the encounter or bypass it, freeing up resources for their next dangerous scenario. Makes perfect sense...

Yet more concept bending to ease people's anxiety.

The DM roleplays the NPCs, or at least he should try to do so to the best of his abilities. If he doesn't, he isn't playing the game right. While as a DM he doesn't necessarily want the players to lose, he is acting as the opposing competition and should do so in a way that is actually a real challenge. He can call it a win if he succeeds at "exhausting 25% of their resources." The players can call it a win if they defeat the encounter soundly with little or no resource lost. The fact the encounter can and will often end in some sort of tie or dual win is of no consequence to the logic.

DZX
10-15-2007, 06:48 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

It was announced waaaaay back that classes would not be balanced for PVP, period. It was never intended to be part of the game. If you don't like the system how it is don't play it, its that simple. I get killed on my caster just as much if not more than I do on any of my other characters.

If by some odd reason one of your major reasons for playing DDO is pvp you are seriously playing the wrong game.

I for one think the lack of balance is fine, I would like to see more pvp options (And with how fast people die my only complaint is that you should be able to crawl out of a pit and respawn yourself at full health or spell points so you can hop right back in), but if they started re balancing this game towards pvp I would quit faster than I left Vanguard for sure.

DragonKiller
10-15-2007, 08:05 PM
Reguards of what buffs you have or use 200+ constant fireballs and scorching rays are a joke.


So much for your pvp system.

Thanks the gods of Eberron.

Riggs
10-16-2007, 02:06 PM
It was announced waaaaay back that classes would not be balanced for PVP, period. It was never intended to be part of the game. If you don't like the system how it is don't play it, its that simple. I get killed on my caster just as much if not more than I do on any of my other characters.

If by some odd reason one of your major reasons for playing DDO is pvp you are seriously playing the wrong game.

I for one think the lack of balance is fine, I would like to see more pvp options (And with how fast people die my only complaint is that you should be able to crawl out of a pit and respawn yourself at full health or spell points so you can hop right back in), but if they started re balancing this game towards pvp I would quit faster than I left Vanguard for sure.

When they announced pvp in the first place, the boards lit up because most people didnt want it in the game. Why?

Most games people scream nurf this or nurf that...and if the devs listen, they change things. The game is supposed to be D&D...but online. Change ANY of the rules, classes, spells, etc - and its not D&D anymore. Half the population would leave the day it was changed. That sure sounds good for the game eh?

PvP is for other games that are designed to be balanced between classes. In DDO pvp is a pastime for amusement, not a serious part of the game. No one has to pvp - and crying for changes to the game based on pvp experience lacks any credibility in discussing DDO.

If someone doesnt like pvp...then dont pvp. How much more simple can that be?

DoctorWhofan
10-17-2007, 05:09 AM
WHo cares? If you are revolving your gaming around PvP, you are missing 9/10ths ofthe game. PvP gives no xp (gain or lost), no loot, no forward momentem. It's something to do when you are between quests or waiting ofr a party to fill. It's not D&D.

As forthe over-powered casters, don't hear you complaining about them in the quests. Or they can get nerfed and suddenly the 200 point+ firewall is a thing of the past, and gets alot harder to kill the mobs.

This game is about teamwork. Generally speaking:

Yeah, casters are uber, however, get close enough to them and their 12 hit points and they are dead.
Barbarians are the hit point kings but are the AC losers.
Fighters are AC all the way, but those will saves...
Paladins are the last man standing, now if they could hit...
Clerics heal, have fewer aggressive spells, and tend not to hit the broad side of a barn.
Rogues do massive damage with sneak attack-then their victim turns around...
Rangers and kill from a distance (or TWF melee) but lack of AC and hit points is very bad indeed.
Bards are the ultimate fill in class, but rarely expert at anything.**

Seperate, these classes tend to be hard pressed to get through a quest on their own, but together, the death toll forthe party goes down, while the death toll for enemies go up. THe classes were designed to have a weak point that is easily exploitable, you just gotta use it.


**I KNOW there are exceptions to every rule, butthis is based on the pure (not multi-class) class with Stat points where they need to be. Saying that, even twinked, the classes still have holes the size of Mack trucks that can be used. After all, we use them when we are questing, correct?

nbhs275
10-17-2007, 09:06 AM
This game is about teamwork. Generally speaking:

Yeah, casters are uber, however, get close enough to them and their 12 hit points and they are dead. < there are casters out there with 200+ hp, which is considerable, along with there other possible defenses
Barbarians are the hit point kings but are the AC losers.There are barbarians which can break 60 ac, and the HP isnt what truly matters, its the dps
Fighters are AC all the way, but those will saves...Most gimpy fighters dont have ac, saves or dps, though there are some out there which are very strong in each
Paladins are the last man standing, now if they could hit...< True, people gimp there pallies with a 30 cha and 10 str. The ones you see made for dps are kings in the pit
Clerics heal, have fewer aggressive spells, and tend not to hit the broad side of a barn.< other then those battle clerics with all thier offensive spells, good melee and AC, high hitpoints, or those clerics with the combo of searing light and deific vengeance
Rogues do massive damage with sneak attack-then their victim turns around...< rogues arent meant for the pit, because their main DPS power is null
Rangers and kill from a distance (or TWF melee) but lack of AC and hit points is very bad indeed.< lasic would be ****ed. The guy is deadly, 50+ AC duel weilding, 200+ hp, and some strong melee skills.
Bards are the ultimate fill in class, but rarely expert at anything.**< there is nothing stopping a bard from killing everyone in the pit, seeing there melee can be as good as or better then many rangers and fighters, hitpoints as high as them, and saves that are even stronger. Then there is also the whole irresistable dance thing coming in next mod

Seperate, these classes tend to be hard pressed to get through a quest on their own, but together, the death toll forthe party goes down, while the death toll for enemies go up. THe classes were designed to have a weak point that is easily exploitable, you just gotta use it.


**I KNOW there are exceptions to every rule, butthis is based on the pure (not multi-class) class with Stat points where they need to be. Saying that, even twinked, the classes still have holes the size of Mack trucks that can be used. After all, we use them when we are questing, correct?


What are these "HUGE HOLES" that cant be covered up? everything can be arranged for and covered with smart placment of skills, items, feats and enhancments. Its often the overly focused builds that have wholes larger then a hummer

ErgonomicCat
10-17-2007, 10:39 AM
Ah, I see. You are saying that the players would love to see 25% of their resources exhausted. They would never want to somehow avoid the encounter or bypass it, freeing up resources for their next dangerous scenario. Makes perfect sense...

Yet more concept bending to ease people's anxiety.



Well, the 25% resource exhaustion is a standard definition of CR appropriate.

But I would say, in general, even bypassing the encounter completely should use up at least some of their resources.

"You see 5 mighty ogre barbarians guarding the pass. It will be a valiant fight! Or you can just walk around them. Your choice."

That's not much of an encounter, really. Bypassing them should involve some scouting, some climbing or wildernessing, possibly the use of a few spells or items to enhance the stealth of the fighters, etc. Then I'd say give full XP for the encounter.

If the DM wants to set up encoutners that allow simple cleverness to overcome them, he's more than welcome to, and will definitely encourage a good game. But he is not, technically, following the CR appropriate system put in to the game. But the players probably won't care that much, because they're still using their own minds to do it.

Also, as a player, yes, I do in fact enjoy expending resources. Because it means that I get to use stuff I picked up, and it means I'm not just saying "Oh, kobolds? Okay, I kill them all. How much XP? Okay, next?"



The DM roleplays the NPCs, or at least he should try to do so to the best of his abilities. If he doesn't, he isn't playing the game right. While as a DM he doesn't necessarily want the players to lose, he is acting as the opposing competition and should do so in a way that is actually a real challenge.


Indeed. He should make the encounter challenging and fun. It should be tense, and the outcome should be in doubt - that's what makes you feel a sense of accomplishment.

But.



He can call it a win if he succeeds at "exhausting 25% of their resources." The players can call it a win if they defeat the encounter soundly with little or no resource lost. The fact the encounter can and will often end in some sort of tie or dual win is of no consequence to the logic.

I really think it is.

In PvP you don't have a dual win. You don't have two people facing off against each other, and then both saying "Oh, yeah, you fought really well, we both win."

That's precisely my point - PvP enforces a "you against us, one winner one loser" idea. A good gaming session should not.

Cowdenicus
10-17-2007, 10:48 AM
PvP should be taken out of the game, period.

Ishturi
10-17-2007, 05:47 PM
I agree.

also, sorcs are not uncounterable.

Drow Paladins in Light armor CRUSH spellcasters.

Asirin
10-25-2007, 09:10 PM
Resurrecting a dead post cuz ive been away for two months and this post seemed to stick out.:)
Obviously DDO has some distinct disadvantages when regarding a Melee class versus a ranged caster. To start off the INSANE +5 or better stat items included in the game (anyone ever see a pair of +5 dex gloves in PnP?) make the charachters incredibly powerful
the (well built)fighters/barbs even more so.I mean come on..whoever had a barb with 400 plus hit points EVER in PnP history.The only way a caster can SURVIVE in PvP is to be able to one shot opponents for much more damage than thier UBER life totals can handle.Otherwise its the Walk of Shame to the tavern ladder very very fast.

How about this for a suggestion(gonna get flamed for this one but its the only thing i can think of at the moment).Have the game automatically disable all stat items and Metamagic feats upon entering the pit so we can PvP on a more level playing field.

Obviously that isnt the best solution but its definately a start to end all the CASTER HATE in the pit:P

Thank you all for reading this new reply to and old post .....and its GOOD to be back:)

DZX
10-25-2007, 09:26 PM
Please allow this thread to die an agonizing death as it deserves.