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MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 01:20 PM
There are two long-standing deviations from the D&D rules which I would like to see remedied in the near future, maybe even for Mod 6.

The first is Spell Resistance. Each and ever spell in D&D is specifically flagged as being Spell-Resistible or not. But DDO went through and said that every single spell that deals direct damage ignores spell resistance. This is problematic for several reasons.

One of the things that always gets said about this is that it's to benefit PC spellcasters. That is, quite honestly, a load of hooey. Given the vast disparities between PC and NPC hit point totals removing ways to block hit-point-damaging spells benefits NPCs far more than PCs. As a PC casting on an NPC, one searing light here or there is relatively insignificant. As an NPC casting on a PC though, one searing light can be 10-50% of a PCs hit points. Thus, it becomes obvious that defenses against HP loss benefit PCs more than NPCs and therefore goes to follow that removing those defenses benefits NPCs far more than PCs.

In addition, it mucks with a vast variety of other effects. Why, for example, is Spell Resistance a fifth level cleric spell when it blocks so few things in DDO. Though, again, you see the disparity here. Things like Spell Penetration remain fairly valuable to PCs because the spells we want to cast on enemies are non-damaging (or insta-death) spells and therefore most are subject to SR. But the SR spell or a drow's SR are significantly weakened because they don't protect against the critical damaging spells.

Please restore spell resistance to it's D&D state, and remove the overarching "damaging spells ignore SR" logic.

The second thing I'd like to bring up (again), is Antimagic zones. With level 15 on the horizon, that brings 8th level spells, one of which is Antimagic Field, so it seems like now is a good time to reexamine this game feature again.

An antimagic zone suppresses spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities. Currently, the only antimagic zones in the game come from Beholders. Currently, those antimagic zones dispel spells and permit spell-like and supernatural abilities. This allows the beholder to dispel all your buffs and then hit you with eyebeams, when in fact at any point in time that you could be hit by an eyebeam your buffs should be in effect. Further, one of the main uses for Antimagic Field is to prevent spell-like and supernatural abilities from affecting you, so it's pretty imperative that these get added to the list of things that antimagic blocks before the spell gets added in.

So, please also restore Antimagic to work in accordance with the D&D rules, suppressing (but not dispelling) existing spells and blocking both spell-like and supernatural abilities.

Cinwulf
10-10-2007, 01:32 PM
/agree please try to fix this at least for mod 6 :)

Kerr
10-10-2007, 01:38 PM
An antimagic zone suppresses spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities. Currently, the only antimagic zones in the game come from Beholders.

I'd be happy if they fixed just this. The first time I ran and met a Beholder I was so irritated they used such lazy programming that it instantly dispells our buffs when they should be toggle 'off' while in front of the Beholder main eye.

Sem34
10-10-2007, 01:38 PM
/agreed... always hated how they did the beholder eyebeam

Strakeln
10-10-2007, 01:58 PM
I don't care about the SR so much, but the anti-magic BS has really been getting to me lately. Especially considering the unlimited SP of NPC casters. Allows enemies such as the undead beholder to indefinitely spam you with an anti-magic field, long after you've passed into heal scroll territory.

GramercyRiff
10-10-2007, 02:00 PM
I don't really care about the SR issue, though I do agree it benefits enemies and not the players. If SR was implemented like pnp, we'd need the Conjuration damage dealing spells, like the Orb series, as those bypass SR. Also, Golems would have to follow the proper rules as well, as they are only immune to spells that allow SR. Since the entire school of Conjuration allows no SR, Golems are suceptible to such magic. It would be nice for the most powerful school in pnp to be the most powerful in DDO. Nice, but not essential like anti-magic

As for anti-magic, I've had a serious issue with this since the beginning. Change anti-magic to work as it should. Auto dispelling should only come from Mord's Disjunction, a 9th level spell, the ultimate in abjuration.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 02:05 PM
I don't care about the SR so much


I don't really care about the SR issue, though I do agree it benefits enemies and not the players.

Yeah, for quite some time now it hasn't bothered me that much, but as we continue to get higher in levels it becomes more important.

Horrid Wilting, for example, as we've been discussing in another thread really has no defenses except SR. But since it's a damaging spell, it ignores SR in DDO.

Disintegrate really also falls into the same category.

Vi'Aed
10-10-2007, 02:13 PM
hhhmmmm... gunna have to disagree with you, MT, about the SR issue. The way they have implemented it works just fine imho. SR effects spells that target you. It does not effect spells that create something that does damage to you. Searing light creates a beam of light that damages you. The spell itself doesn't do the damage.

I tend to think of it this way. Searing light, fireball, etc, are not, in the end, that different from a summoned monster. Just because the source of the damaging object is magic, doesn't mean SR prevents Troll from smacking you.

Yeah, there is some gray area in there, but in general....

I do agree w/ you about the anti-magic zones though.

Azoralq
10-10-2007, 02:17 PM
Well..if you want to get really picky: Beholers can not fire any of their beams into their own Anti-Magic field. Why? Well..cause their beams are magical in nature, dispite the fact that they are in ray form. So, in order to fire at a person standing in front of the beholder, the beholder must first close his Central Eye, fire a few beams, then open that eye again.

Can you see now, how hard it would to implement a true beholder?

Imagine standing in front of a beholder with your standard 40 million buffs from an overachieving cleric and/or arcane caster. First they must program for the beholder to know when to close his central eye, fire, open central eye again. Then, they must program a way to toggle off all 40 million buffs when in field, know when the field is shut off, toggle on all 40 million buffs, and so forth. I know very little about MMO coding, but I'd imagine that's a lot of work.

While I agree that you should not be dispelled] when fighting a beholder. I would settle for my spells being 'toggled' off until the beholder dies/I move from his central line of sight.

I don't agree with the SR thing, either. Basicaly what the poster above said. A fireball is a ball of fire..it was magically created, and formed into a ball, to explode upon impact..but it's a ball of fire. That's how I look at it in my games, anyway.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 02:22 PM
hhhmmmm... gunna have to disagree with you, MT, about the SR issue. The way they have implemented it works just fine imho. SR effects spells that target you. It does not effect spells that create something that does damage to you. Searing light creates a beam of light that damages you. The spell itself doesn't do the damage.

I tend to think of it this way. Searing light, fireball, etc, are not, in the end, that different from a summoned monster. Just because the source of the damaging object is magic, doesn't mean SR prevents Troll from smacking you.

You are correct in your interpretation of how D&D SR works and why. You are incorrect in your assessment of "Searing Light, fireball etc." All of these spells do cause the damage themselves and are therefore blocked by SR (as shown by the SRD).

Now, some spells work differently, generally the conjuration ones. Acid Arrow, for example, doesn't allow SR because it creates an arrow which then does the damage.

But basically, D&D has a specific answer for each and every spell in the game as to which category it should fall into. DDO ignores all of this and just says "It does damage? No SR!"

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-10-2007, 02:23 PM
Currently, the only antimagic zones in the game come from Beholders.

...and Globe of Invulnerability? ...and those flaming sphere things in the Cinnis preraid (both types)? Or are those different?

Garth

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 02:26 PM
...and Globe of Invulnerability?

Globe of invulnerability is different. It stops/prevent spells (and spell-like effects) of a given spell level or lower. It's generally less powerful than Antimagic and won't stop any supernatural abilities.


...and those flaming sphere things in the Cinnis preraid (both types)?

I'm not familiar with the quest, so I don't know what those are.

GramercyRiff
10-10-2007, 02:26 PM
Yeah, for quite some time now it hasn't bothered me that much, but as we continue to get higher in levels it becomes more important.

Horrid Wilting, for example, as we've been discussing in another thread really has no defenses except SR. But since it's a damaging spell, it ignores SR in DDO.

Disintegrate really also falls into the same category.

Great point. Spell resistance is a vital defense to have up at high level of play as you're going to die from magic in almost all cases. Count me in on wanting SR changed for what it's worth. I still say you'd need to implement more Conjuration damaging spells though, as those bypass SR.

Then again, death isn't as big a deal in DDO as it is in PnP. Still, good points MT regarding the need for the change.

One note to keep in mind though; what would stop the devs from giving casters a high enough spell pen check to penetrate our highest SR's with a roll of a 1?

Raithe
10-10-2007, 02:38 PM
Imagine standing in front of a beholder with your standard 40 million buffs from an overachieving cleric and/or arcane caster.

40 million might cover your screen and make it difficult to play the game. I would suggest that the typical 10 to 20 buffs would be a more appropriate number range to be using in an example.



First they must program for the beholder to know when to close his central eye, fire, open central eye again.


Or, they could program the beholder to close his central eye just before he is about to use any or all eyestalks. This would give players a visual cue when to get nervous, and would enable encounters with beholders amongst other mobs that didn't end up being absurdly random in difficulty. For some reason the word "Doomsphere" popped into my head...



Then, they must program a way to toggle off all 40 million buffs when in field, know when the field is shut off, toggle on all 40 million buffs, and so forth. I know very little about MMO coding, but I'd imagine that's a lot of work.

It might be a lot of work if something in the code structure wouldn't really jive, but I doubt that it would be that much work regardless.

I suspect, however, that those still working on DDO have much higher priorities.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 02:40 PM
The truth is, the tech to toggle buffs off and on is already in the game.

The Globes of Invulnerability do it.

Vi'Aed
10-10-2007, 02:40 PM
But basically, D&D has a specific answer for each and every spell in the game as to which category it should fall into. DDO ignores all of this and just says "It does damage? No SR!"

But I don't think that is what DDO does. DDO follows the logic I laid out before. Finger of Death, for example, does direct damage to a target and therefore is subject to spell resistance. SR effects spells that are cast *ON* you. Most damage spells are, in contrast, cast *AT* you.

That said, I have no recollection of whether or not clerical direct damage spells (like harm) are effected by SR. If they are not, they should be under current logic. Burning blood would be another example of a spell that SR should effect. I also don't remember if it does or not...

If things like Burning Blood and Harm are not being effected by SR then I would whole heartedly agree the issue needs to be revisited. i am good as long as the logic is consistent.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 02:43 PM
But I don't think that is what DDO does. DDO follows the logic I laid out before. Finger of Death, for example, does direct damage to a target and therefore is subject to spell resistance. SR effects spells that are cast *ON* you. Most damage spells are, in contrast, cast *AT* you.

This is an incorrect assessment. FoD, Destruction, PK all interact with SR because they are primarily instant-death spells which have damage as a secondary (failed-save) effect.

Deific Vengeance, for example, is a direct damage spell which is cast on you but ignores SR. Harm and Burning Blood also ignore SR. Anything that deals damage as it's primary effect ignores SR.

LeLoric
10-10-2007, 02:50 PM
There are some antimagic zones in the Black Mausoleum, this was probably developed as a prelude to adding the antimagic spell in mod 6 I would like to see the beholders fixed as far as sr meh too many things need to change and can affect a persons build quite a bit with feats and such which i know can be changed but i think its too much hassle for the fix.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 02:52 PM
as far as sr meh too many things need to change and can affect a persons build quite a bit with feats and such which i know can be changed but i think its too much hassle for the fix.

The only build oriented things associated with SR are Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats, caster level and Spell Penetration and Drow SR enhancements.

Most of those are alterable.

Vi'Aed
10-10-2007, 02:53 PM
This is an incorrect assessment. FoD, Destruction, PK all interact with SR because they are primarily instant-death spells which have damage as a secondary (failed-save) effect.

Deific Vengeance, for example, is a direct damage spell which is cast on you but ignores SR. Harm and Burning Blood also ignore SR. Anything that deals damage as it's primary effect ignores SR.

Then that, I would agree, should be addressed at least.

Raithe
10-10-2007, 03:00 PM
Soundburst seems to deal damage regardless of the SR check for stun. I think different spell effects are checked or not checked separately. I don't think it's a "this spell is, that one isn't" thing.

I might be wrong, however.

Drider
10-10-2007, 03:04 PM
As much as I'd like a working SR, that would mean it would work for the baddies too, and it already takes 2-4 maximized damage spells to kill most mobs.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 03:07 PM
As much as I'd like a working SR, that would mean it would work for the baddies too, and it already takes 2-4 maximized damage spells to kill most mobs.

What are you doing using damaging spells against enemies anyway. ;)

But more seriously, that's part of the game. Some enemies have high SR and are harder to kill with spells just like some enemies have high AC or DR and are harder to kill with regular attacks.

Drider
10-10-2007, 03:10 PM
What are you doing using damaging spells against enemies anyway. ;)




Damn it! I'm hardcore! Besides, I like my fireballs and cones of cold!

and I really just have no fun when the most efficient way to kill things is Firewall, PK, or FoD. :(

Sokar6000
10-10-2007, 03:11 PM
/agree, ESPECIALLY since they ALREADY have the coding for supressing effects. (Glode of invulnerability, anyone?)

Nero
10-10-2007, 03:26 PM
In reference to earlier posting look at SR this way.

Lets say we have 22 sr from and item or 26 from a cleric. And the monster has the same + some due to levels.

Monsters will be increasing in hit dice and levels faster then we will and fixing SR will only really benefit the monster.

Average non humanoid monstrosity on norm has 16-18 caster level. Hard jumps to 20-22 elite jumps to 24-26-28 onward into infinity. With level cap up expect this to rise even further into the extreme numbers.

Monsters casters will still hit you a lot. But we will miss a lot unless we spend feats and points into things so we can effectively bypass their sr.

Also look at it this was 90% of spells that will gain sr stoppage were already easily preventable. Let say fireball. Simple and easy to dodge. Up reflex save and you have nothing to worry about since most casters will hit you for 40-60 points resisted its 10-30 if you save before that all of the damage is gone. If you manualy dodge the damage is gone. Schorching ray by monsters is even easier because its 3 small damage spells pop on a resist and they don't even get through. Of course you could always dodge them. Polar ray is a hard hitter but heh they got to have something. 90% of nasty damage in this game short of a sword up the wazoo can almost be completely mitigated. Horrid wilting won't be that bad since monsters don't use feats. 20d6? thats 90-120 damage without saving fort saves for most people are high my caster has a 24 fort save buffed.

With SR fixed we will still get hit but our ability to hit them will be compromized. unless were talking low level content.

Laith
10-10-2007, 03:36 PM
Horrid wilting won't be that bad since monsters don't use feats. 20d6? thats 90-120 damage without saving fort saves for most people are high my caster has a 24 fort save buffed.
that makes it similar to an AOE disintegrate, that's probably much harder to dodge.
maybe closer to a delayed blast fireball (but no possible resistance to cover up 1/4 to 1/3 or all of the effect)

sounds pretty painful to me.

Drider
10-10-2007, 03:41 PM
Horrid wilting won't be that bad since monsters don't use feats. 20d6? thats 90-120 damage without saving fort saves for most people are high my caster has a 24 fort save buffed.




Umm it will be when they start spamming it, and it's AOE not single target. Oh and some creatures do have metamagic feats... mainly the bosses that will be casting this.

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 03:42 PM
Horrid wilting won't be that bad since monsters don't use feats. 20d6? thats 90-120 damage without saving fort saves for most people are high my caster has a 24 fort save buffed.

With SR fixed we will still get hit but our ability to hit them will be compromized. unless were talking low level content.

I thought that some of the baddies were using feats now (I know I've seen some turn Power Attack on and I thought some of the hobgoblin casters turned some metamagic feats on too, alhtough I could be wrong).

If they tossed out some maximized Horrid Wilting spells, they would then be hitting for 40d6, a maximized empowered one would hit for 50d6... There has to be some way to stop that kind of damage (Or dodge it or something...)

Edit: I agree that changing SR would probably hit players harder than the baddies due to the fact that they are much higher level than we are...

Drider
10-10-2007, 03:43 PM
If they tossed out some maximized Horrid Wilting spells, they would then be hitting for 40d6, a maximized empowered one would hit for 50d6... There has to be some way to stop that kind of damage (Or dodge it or something...)


Well you get a fort save.. and the way to avoid it, let your party members take aggro then stay on the opposite side of the room that they are in. :D

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 03:45 PM
Well you get a fort save.. and the way to avoid it, let your party members take aggro then stay on the opposite side of the room that they are in. :D

The old 'Sacrifice the Tank' trick... :)

Nero
10-10-2007, 03:49 PM
that makes it similar to an AOE disintigrate.

sounds pretty painful to me.


Nah disintigrate is much worse. 2d6 a level. A creature casting that would put out 40d6. Thats painful but hey only one creature casts that often at the moment. The beholder! But of course disintgrate is even weaker when a save is made. 5d6? PShaww 18-30 damage on a save....

As for the 26 SR. Most enemy casters are humanoid. With low Cr by comparison so yeah it holds pretty well. One thing is in all the times I've gone with pugs Ive only seen SR M cast 2-3 times. Then again most pugs also are 75% drow. So they don't think its that required. On a side now. Why is it everyone and their dog has a drow character! I mean really I know they are well suited for almost every class in the game but still.

When I hold my tournament I am gonna do a race count just to see how many of what class and race show up. I got a feeling on the numbers.

Laith
10-10-2007, 03:51 PM
The old 'Sacrifice the Tank' trick... :)bah, even flesh golems are beyond falling for that these days :D

strangly enough, they're intelligent and can be intimidated/diplomacied though *shrug*

moorewr
10-10-2007, 03:52 PM
What are you doing using damaging spells against enemies anyway. ;)

Red Names. Turbine wont let me do anything else. :)

Drider
10-10-2007, 03:52 PM
As for the 26 SR. Most enemy casters are humanoid. With low Cr by comparison so yeah it holds pretty well. One thing is in all the times I've gone with pugs Ive only seen SR M cast 2-3 times. Then again most pugs also are 75% drow.


Mass SR is the first thing my cleric casts for a buff, don't leave home without it. As for 75% Drow, that seems pretty inflated. I don't notice that many of them. Although I'm guilty of using Drow for my 2 cha based characters, but that's the only reason.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 04:01 PM
Monsters will be increasing in hit dice and levels faster then we will and fixing SR will only really benefit the monster.


Edit: I agree that changing SR would probably hit players harder than the baddies due to the fact that they are much higher level than we are...

HD don't go into the SR calculations, just caster level.

And I don't believe enemy caster levels are that out of control compared to our own. Higher, to be sure, but not "soooo high" that SR won't make a difference.

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 04:11 PM
HD don't go into the SR calculations, just caster level.

And I don't believe enemy caster levels are that out of control compared to our own. Higher, to be sure, but not "soooo high" that SR won't make a difference.

At this point its really hard to say how high an enemy caster level is, so you may be right in that regard. I do know that when they cast Dispel Magic (The effects of which are determined only by caster level), they tend to knock almost all my buffs off which means that they are higher level than us. (Of course we 'tend' to play smarter with spell penetration feats, enhancements, and items to get past SR)

So, I guess my point is, its hard to say who it would benefit more from a change to SR.

DSL
10-10-2007, 04:14 PM
If they tossed out some maximized Horrid Wilting spells, they would then be hitting for 40d6, a maximized empowered one would hit for 50d6... There has to be some way to stop that kind of damage (Or dodge it or something...)

Edit: I agree that changing SR would probably hit players harder than the baddies due to the fact that they are much higher level than we are...

Huh? Did I miss something, or would a maximized version simply be 120 dmg instead of 40d6? Empowered it would likely not go over 170. Any way you look at it, it would hurt, but if it isn't being spammed out by multiple casters it shouldn't be too bad, and in any case a 20th level caster probably won't have that much trouble cutting through player SR.

I do believe that SR against direct damage evocations would in fact benefit the NPC's more. Ultimately, in my experience such damage is rarely a huge problem for players (after mid levels anyway), and when it is it's likely that your SR would be of negligable benefit. On the other hand a great deal of caster effectiveness does in fact stem from such spells, contrary to what you seem to think MT. Wall of Fire alone is probably responsible for the demise of more MOBs than any other spell, including such spells as FoD, PK, and Haste. In any case, there is no question that players are routinely capable of dealing vastly higher amounts of damage via these spells than the MOBs (even, arguably, in relation to their hp).

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 04:21 PM
In any case, there is no question that players are routinely capable of dealing vastly higher amounts of damage via these spells than the MOBs (even, arguably, in relation to their hp).

And what happens when you add in the fact that while only a fraction of enemies have spell resistance at all, pretty much every PC could have it at higher levels?

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 04:26 PM
Huh? Did I miss something, or would a maximized version simply be 120 dmg instead of 40d6? Empowered it would likely not go over 170. Any way you look at it, it would hurt, but if it isn't being spammed out by multiple casters it shouldn't be too bad, and in any case a 20th level caster probably won't have that much trouble cutting through player SR..

Cast by a 20th level caster, without saving would be 20d6 or up to 120 points of damage (Save for 60). Maximized multiplies it 2 times to 40d6 or up to 240 points (Save for 120). Add empower on to that and it goes up to 50d6 or 300 points of damage (Save for 150). Even if you save for half, hitting the entire party for that much damage could be devestating since there is NO way to stop it.

DSL
10-10-2007, 04:45 PM
Cast by a 20th level caster, without saving would be 20d6 or up to 120 points of damage (Save for 60). Maximized multiplies it 2 times to 40d6 or up to 240 points (Save for 120). Add empower on to that and it goes up to 50d6 or 300 points of damage (Save for 150). Even if you save for half, hitting the entire party for that much damage could be devestating since there is NO way to stop it.

AHh right... I forgot that in DDO maximize is x2 instead of, well, maximum.

However, we are making what is perhaps a bold assumption that this spell would be used by Maximize-using MOBs, and the track record of these things in my experience is that they would not have too many scenarios where this sort of damage would be spammed out at the players (though I expect eventually we'll see the players spamming it out at the MOBs).

DSL
10-10-2007, 05:01 PM
And what happens when you add in the fact that while only a fraction of enemies have spell resistance at all, pretty much every PC could have it at higher levels?

What tends to be the case is that some quests have SR-protected MOBs, while other quests don't. Since players know which are which, casters could readily tailor their spell selection accordingly (well, except the sorcerers). Of course, nothing stops NPC clerics form buffing their guys with Mass SR spells either. Also, don't forget that some creatures magical attacks are supernatural abilities (No SR), while pretty much everything a player can throw is a spell.

There's no doubt that allowing SR to work as per PnP would improve the players' defensive abilities, but I expect that this would more than anything cause a lot of problems for the casters, especially the arcanes, and ultimately anger a great many of them. This is not like the evasion in heavy armor issue, which was something they hadn't really intended but didn't bother to fix for a while - this is a deliberate design choice, and when they say it was to benefit players, I confess that I believe them (call me crazy).

MrCow
10-10-2007, 05:08 PM
Average non humanoid monstrosity on norm has 16-18 caster level. Hard jumps to 20-22 elite jumps to 24-26-28 onward into infinity.

Sorry, but I have to correct this.

Monsters in DDO use their CR rating to determine their caster level, not their hit dice. This is kinda odd, like when that fighter/wizard elf in gwylan's is casting at full blast (being humanoids have 1 CR for every level).

Regardless, monster CR from normal to hard and to elite follow a fairly simple pattern on nearly every monster (excluding the decimal CR monsters and a few other exceptions, namely harbor rated monsters). On hard, add +2 to the CR of the monster from what it has on normal. On elite, add +5 to the CR of the monster from what it has on normal.



In regards to the whole no negating horrid wilting problem... doesn't it use something like slow, where the purple cylinder ring graphic occupies an area and the effect takes place a second later? If that is true, then can't you dodge it with a high tumble or fast run?

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 05:22 PM
when they say it was to benefit players, I confess that I believe them (call me crazy).

Honestly, I believe that that was the original intention of the change.

But I think it was done without considering a) all the ramifications or b) where the game would grow (a fairly significant flaw in DDO's early game design if you ask me).

And honestly, in general, anything defensive benefits players more than our enemies (provided we both have equal access... grumblegrumblebossimmunities) largely because we're smarter than they are, but also because of the differences in HP totals. An given defense benefits us more because we have fewer hit points and therefore are in more need of said defense.

If someone really wants to do some caster level testing vs. SR it shouldn't be that hard. Find some people who cast spells that currently interact with SR and explore it's efficiency.

Determine what has what levels of SR should be even easier. Go out and start casting SR-able spells on things and see what kinds of numbers you have to roll to overcome it.

Gornin
10-10-2007, 05:47 PM
I think both SR and Anit-magic fields both need to be fixed just for the simple fact that it will be closer to PnP. These are just 2 of the small things that have caused several people I know to quit playing. The most common reason I get that people I know quit is " it says D&D Online, but its not really D&D".

Some changes to a realtime game are to be expected, but alot of people feel that not properly implementing an iconic monster like a beholder is not right. Same with a simple concept like SR. Many feel that until it is just like D&D rules, don't implement it until it is right.

I love this game, but some times it irritates me that things don't work like they are supposed too. I usually don't figure it out until I die. Frustrating.
I'm not talking about bugs, they are to be expected in something like this. Just things like this and other things I see talked about on the forums or in game. The goal should always be to be as close to PnP rules as possible.

Edit: Unless this game is being used to test out some 4.0 concepts. Let us know about it if it is.

Kraldor
10-10-2007, 06:02 PM
Globe of invulnerability is different. It stops/prevent spells (and spell-like effects) of a given spell level or lower. It's generally less powerful than Antimagic and won't stop any supernatural abilities.

I think his point was that those antimagic globes suppress magic instead of dispelling it, and that it shouldn't be too hard to implement a similar mechanic for antimagic fields and beholder eyes.

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 06:08 PM
In regards to the whole no negating horrid wilting problem... doesn't it use something like slow, where the purple cylinder ring graphic occupies an area and the effect takes place a second later? If that is true, then can't you dodge it with a high tumble or fast run?

If this is the case, then I have no problem with Horrid Wilting implementation. I was running under the impression that it was like Diefic Vengence and was an insta-hit spell. If it is as you describe it, dodging is a defence which means my concerns are unfounded. Thanks for pointing that out and setting my mind at ease. :)

Lifespawn
10-10-2007, 06:22 PM
correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't that ghost in From beyond the grave cast horrid wilting?And the way to save the party was deathward it always blocked it...?

HumanRogue
10-10-2007, 06:43 PM
correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't that ghost in From beyond the grave cast horrid wilting?And the way to save the party was deathward it always blocked it...?


Horrid Wilting actually deals 1d6 untyped damage per caster level (max 20d6) to all living creatures within the area of effect, Fortitude half.

It's possible that at the moment on live it's set up to deal negative energy damage, but in the spell update pass that'd have been corrected. Death Ward won't stop it - not much does.

As posted today. :)

Invalid_86
10-10-2007, 09:16 PM
/signed. Mystic you are right on the money!

LeLoric
10-10-2007, 09:41 PM
Can we add a third for ranged touch attacks mt?

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 09:42 PM
Can we add a third for ranged touch attacks mt?

/sigh

Yeah, probably. I've just done that one up a few times already. Adding touch AC and flat-footed AC to the game would be a good thing too.

Drider
10-10-2007, 09:52 PM
How about a 4th, I want my followers!

**do they even still have those in 3.x?

MrCow
10-10-2007, 10:16 PM
If it is as you describe it, dodging is a defence which means my concerns are unfounded. Thanks for pointing that out and setting my mind at ease.

Don't rest easy yet. If they are changing the spell's damage type then they could be looking at changing the implementation in other things for the spell. Its one of those questions we won't know the true answer to until we either get confirmation from Turbine or see it for ourselves.

Although, that would require work to change...

Pellegro
10-10-2007, 10:19 PM
I don't recall reading the lack of SR for direct damage spells as being expressly for the purpose of helping PCs (vs. NPCs). I always assumed the reason direct damage spells bypass SR was to give casters the equivalent of a sword - something that they could use to consistently contribute (read: pump out damage) so as not to be bored. Some of you were around pre Mod-4 (or was it even pre Mod-3?) back when everyone complained that DDO was all about tanks & hack-n-slash, with casters being good for haste and not much more .... That's not the complaint you hear nowadays.

Regardless, I think DDO has settled into a niche market - namely, D&D players. While I personally like that direct-damage spells avoid SR and give my sorceror the easy fall-back option of a maximized scorching-ray on most enemies, I also see the wisdom in catering to one's market.

So I'd like to see them bring it more in line with PnP, and just consider other ways to keep casters feel involved (e.g. relatively low SR on most monsters until higher levels thereby making the debate somewhat academic; combined with more enemy casters having feats to overcome/counteract the SR of players). Personally, in a dream world, each individual monster (as opposed to each monster type) would have a unique set of randomly applied buffs and SR, items, etc. Keep casters challenged with trying out new approaches in each encounter rather than each quest or mob-type. After all, everybody knows, the smart kids play the MU. ;)

LeLoric
10-10-2007, 10:44 PM
the reason i say touch ac is if they do sr and people with high sr are not getting disintegrates and polar rays my elven rogue with no sr should also have a way to not be hit