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View Full Version : Implement or Improve Travel Spells



MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 07:45 AM
Ok, so here's the thing, as some of you may know from my "What I Learned on my Summer Vacation (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=123370)" post, I spent some time during my break from DDO playing City of Heroes. (I still play it a bit, as a matter of fact.)

For those of you who don't know, City of Heroes has a lot of powers that people tend to call "travel powers." These are things like Teleport, Fly, Super Speed and so on.

And really, they're a lot of fun.

Now I understand how certain quests in DDO would be broken by certain classic D&D "travel spells" but I think it's time to do something about this topic anyway. Honestly, D&D has plenty of spells to counter each of these spells.

Let's take Dimension Door, for instance. Dimension Door should really allow you to open a two-way door between any two points in range (which is 400 ft + 40 ft per level, or almost 1000 feet at level 14). While I realize that the system needs some mechanic to know where you want the other end of the spell to be, this could be dealt with in a few ways. You could have markers that you set. You could target a team mate and open it at their location. You could select a spot on the mini-map. There are plenty of ways to properly implement this spell.

Similarly, teleport should allow you to bring yourself (and nearby allies) to a variety of locations similarly selected. For Teleport you might also add a list of all the quests in range.

Now, the reason everyone says it wouldn't work is that it would break some quests. Now, honestly, I don't have a problem with that to a degree, spells like these "break" some quests in D&D too. That's part of the beauty of having them. But, that said, you could also set up certain quests (like the raids) to have areas that are under a dimensional lock effect. This would essentially mean that there's no dimension dooring or teleporting into or out of the final room in VoN5. You could add a similar feature to any area that simply requires you to not be able to teleport to or past it for story reasons.

Similarly, a spell like "Passwall" is a classic. People often suggest that a spell like this would give you the ability to pass right out of the map into the great void that's outside what the devs have built. I'd suggest taking a bit of time to go back and do a bit of coding to designate walls as interior or exterior. This would allow you to set certain permissions for interior walls that you don't for exterior walls. No Passwalling out of the quest, just through walls inside the quest. (This would have some additional advantages for features like a /stuck command.) Though, this one, maybe I can understand a bit more than the others. Still, it'd be nice to see.

And Fly. Fly is a spell that's designed to help casters avoid damage and/or encounters. It's a staple is many a caster's repertoire. And it's a shame that it's not implemented in DDO. I'd suggest, at the very least, that fly be implemented and only allowed outside of quests. That is, let people fly through Stormreach, and let them fly in explorer areas. But it'd be even better to allow it in quests and simply implement anti-magic zones in the areas where it would really break quests.

So in short, please implement (or re-implement properly) as many travel spells from the following list as you can. They're classic D&D, they're iconic, they're lot's of fun and they're cool.

Air Walk
Dimension Door
Ethereal Jaunt
Fly
Gaseous Form
Levitate
Overland Flight
Passwall
Phantom Steed
Phase Door
Shadow Walk
Spider Climb
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Tree Stride
Wind Walk
Word of Recall

oronisi
10-09-2007, 08:07 AM
As for properly implementing Dimension Door, the solution is simple in my mind. You cast 1 DD, then the other. If you cast a third, the first vanishes. This way you can only DD to some place you have been before. They can always leave 1 DD to lead back to the quest entrance if no other DD was cast.

This would prevent a large amount of exploits or the ability to break quests.

MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 08:20 AM
This way you can only DD to some place you have been before.

This is, technically speaking, how DD is supposed to work though.

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-09-2007, 08:30 AM
While it's a great idea from a D&D perspective to get these extra spells added into the game, coding and implementing them in such a way as to prevent exploiting of quests would be nigh on impossible. I can think of several quests that would be broken or easily exploitable if these spells, or the DDoor idea above were to be implemented. Think beholder cookies, but far more powerful, and unlimited uses.

I think this is something the devs just aren't going to do. Sorry :(

Garth

MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 08:37 AM
While it's a great idea from a D&D perspective to get these extra spells added into the game, coding and implementing them in such a way as to prevent exploiting of quests would be nigh on impossible. I can think of several quests that would be broken or easily exploitable if these spells, or the DDoor idea above were to be implemented. Think beholder cookies, but far more powerful, and unlimited uses.

Like I said for flight. They should strongly consider at least implementing these spells (or the more versatile versions of them) outside of quests. There's no exploit to flying through gianthold, or teleporting around it.

And I think it'd be fun for enough people (and useful enough going forward, if we're going to keep seeing explorer areas added in) that it'd be worth the effort.

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-09-2007, 08:42 AM
Like I said for flight. They should strongly consider at least implementing these spells (or the more versatile versions of them) outside of quests. There's no exploit to flying through gianthold, or teleporting around it.

And I think it'd be fun for enough people (and useful enough going forward, if we're going to keep seeing explorer areas added in) that it'd be worth the effort.

Yes totally agree outside of quests. It would be great if a helpful bard could sit at the entrance of Necropolis and cast a DDoor that allows people to teleport to the entrace to the Orchard. He might even get tips. :)

Garth

p.s. of course, what is more likely is that people will cast ddoors all over the place and everyone's client would crash - much why the devs have stopped (almost all) AOE spells in public areas because of spamming.

Aspenor
10-09-2007, 08:42 AM
I'm highly in favor of targeting my spots for dimension doors. That way I can make sure all my guildies fall in pools of lava regularly.

MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 10:40 AM
I'm highly in favor of targeting my spots for dimension doors. That way I can make sure all my guildies fall in pools of lava regularly.

Shhh... don't give away my real plans.

MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 10:43 AM
p.s. of course, what is more likely is that people will cast ddoors all over the place and everyone's client would crash - much why the devs have stopped (almost all) AOE spells in public areas because of spamming.

You could limit DD to non-public, non-quest areas (i.e. explorer zones), but allow most others to function in any non-quest areas.

Wulf_Ratbane
10-09-2007, 10:46 AM
If Levitate instantly elevated you to the maximum Jump height allowed in the game (Jump 40 ranks), and then let you sit there (albeit unmoving) for the duration of the spell, then it wouldn't break any movement/map restrictions already in the game.

Of course, this supposes that the maximum Jump height does, at least, keep you safe from melee attacks.

But it would be great fun to Levitate over the battlefield and rain down death for a few seconds.

Drider
10-09-2007, 01:43 PM
This is, technically speaking, how DD is supposed to work though.


I thought DD was line of sight only?

And one thing about CoH... The main reason for travel powers is... travel time. By the time you reach, I think it's 10th level, you are dying for anything that makes you move faster then sprint to get you from mission to mission.

Missing_Minds
10-09-2007, 01:56 PM
This is, technically speaking, how DD is supposed to work though.

Nope. You goofed on this one, Mystic. You crossed it with teleport.

From the SRD: "You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction."
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

If I wanted to DD straight up and do a death from above attack, I most certainly could, and chances are that I've never been straight up in an area before.

However, given DD currently placement issue. (50 feet straight up in the air anyone?), I rather like the idea of put it at point A, a second at point B, then if a point C is cast, point A vanishes. I mean it would not be hard to put a placement pointer at the feet of the caster.

Trick about DD though is that it is a one way trip. But the above implementation would kill one of the great uses for it. Crossing canyons.

oronisi
10-09-2007, 02:19 PM
Nope. You goofed on this one, Mystic. You crossed it with teleport.

From the SRD: "You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction."
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

If I wanted to DD straight up and do a death from above attack, I most certainly could, and chances are that I've never been straight up in an area before.

However, given DD currently placement issue. (50 feet straight up in the air anyone?), I rather like the idea of put it at point A, a second at point B, then if a point C is cast, point A vanishes. I mean it would not be hard to put a placement pointer at the feet of the caster.

Trick about DD though is that it is a one way trip. But the above implementation would kill one of the great uses for it. Crossing canyons.


Not necessarily...DD right now casts where you are targetting, right? So why mess with that. You can make sure your targetting circle is on the other side of the canyon and cast it.

What I envision would utilize the current system as much as possible. Same casting animations, heck, even keep the same SP cost per cast, same DD graphic, just have the transport location change to the other DD instead of the quest entrance (when there are 2 DDs).

Missing_Minds
10-09-2007, 02:23 PM
Not necessarily...DD right now casts where you are targetting, right? So why mess with that. You can make sure your targetting circle is on the other side of the canyon and cast it.

*snickers* I wish it cast where I told it.

Aim right at your feet. "out of range"
Aim right at a wall, aka 90 perpendicular. 9/10 it will be 50 feet up in the air or at the ceiling.

The targeting system needs help, that was my point of saying on the caster. No more miss aimed casts. If it were not this issue, oh heck yeah I'd be all for that.

MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 04:56 PM
Nope. You goofed on this one, Mystic. You crossed it with teleport.

From the SRD: "You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction."
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

If I wanted to DD straight up and do a death from above attack, I most certainly could, and chances are that I've never been straight up in an area before.

I've highlighted the relevant part. You're actually mixing it up with Teleport. Teleport you have to have been somewhere or at least have a pretty good picture/description of it.

DD lets you say "I want the other end of the door to be 100 feet that way" whether you've been there or not.

MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 04:58 PM
And one thing about CoH... The main reason for travel powers is... travel time. By the time you reach, I think it's 10th level, you are dying for anything that makes you move faster then sprint to get you from mission to mission.

And honestly, as we seem to move that direction in DDO, I think travel spells are going to become equally important.

I mean look, they've already had to kind of implement Teleport Circle for Gianthold.

I don't want to have to run a long way and maybe/probably have to fight with stuff just to get to the quests. That's always been one of DDO's biggest advantages. I do love the explorer areas, but they move us away from this immediate-access-to-quests model more towards the type of model where travel-enhancements are, if not required, at least quite beneficial.

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-09-2007, 05:01 PM
You could limit DD to non-public, non-quest areas (i.e. explorer zones), but allow most others to function in any non-quest areas.

Then have people ddoor up to the top of the towers in the orchard...? Whichever way you put it - adding these spells is opening a Pandora's box of nasty exploits.

Garth

MysticTheurge
10-09-2007, 05:10 PM
Then have people ddoor up to the top of the towers in the orchard...?

And do what, exactly. I haven't really explored the orchard a lot yet.

The only potential problem I can think of would be the external part of Feast or Famine in Gianthold. But you could potentially fix that by having the chest key drop inside the quest. And/or just add invisible walls to make it inaccessible. (I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of "realism" for the ability to have stuff this cool at all.)

muffinlad
10-09-2007, 07:35 PM
I played COH for 1+ years before coming to DDO.

1) COH is much, much bigger than Stormreach. One Zone in COH is about 80% of the size of the entire layout of what we play in. Travel Powers are absolutely required, though I would see people make builds that excluded them (prior to the Enhancement Deversivication fiasco esp.)

2) Flight does not work well inside a mission(quest), though Hover/Superspeed and to some extent, SuperLeap, do. Teleport is hard to get used to, but once you do, it is awesome.

3) I had several toons that were SS/T-Porters, or SS Hoverers, or SS/Jumpers, and several that were Fly with SS for inside.

4) The hardest quest I ever played in CoH is about at the 50% mark for DDO. It is simply not as "hard" or as complex as DDO IMHO.

That being said.....and this is rare for me.....I agree with MT wholeheartedly, and nearly without reservation.

A) I hate the idea that Flight was not implemented in this game. You only get it in the Stormreaver. I know all of the reasons why it was not, but that still sucks.

B) Flight, brooms, Flying Carpets, winged creatures, are some of the most fun items/mounts you get in D+D.

C) More options on tactics are always better than fewer. Improve the player abilities, and improve the challenge.

Regs,

muffinbird

Riddikulus
10-09-2007, 07:58 PM
2) Flight does not work well inside a mission(quest), though Hover/Superspeed and to some extent, SuperLeap, do. Teleport is hard to get used to, but once you do, it is awesome.
Yeah I found the fast travel powers too fast in quests.

The funny thing is that the CoH equivalent of haste "Speed Boost" is almost univerally hated by players because it increases movement speed beyond easy control. Maybe hate is too strong. More like a love/hate relationship because they love the increased attack rate and endurance though.


4) The hardest quest I ever played in CoH is about at the 50% mark for DDO. It is simply not as "hard" or as complex as DDO IMHO.
This is a misrepresentation. CoH quests scale to number of players. Sure a CoH "Heroic" quest solo is easier than soloing a DDO "Normal" quest because DDO quests are designed to challenge 4 players.

If you opened a CoH quest scaled for four players it is significantly more difficult than an equivalent DDO quest.

Spell
10-10-2007, 04:33 AM
I played CoH then CoV for 2yrs and absolutely loved the Teleport travel powers. True it's a little difficult to master, but when you do. WOOHOO!!
Some time back when i heard we were getting Teleport in DDO I was giddy. All of my DnD-pnp casters took levitate, fly or teleport. Imagine my disapointment with only being able to travel between zones. The spell could've been a great addition to DDO even it was a teleport within sight to a targeted location and self only.
I can understand that we didn't get levitate or fly. I mean, it's not like any mobs that we fight can fly. Oh wait. Mephits galore!!!

Spectralist
10-10-2007, 07:11 AM
I can understand that we didn't get levitate or fly. I mean, it's not like any mobs that we fight can fly. Oh wait. Mephits galore!!!

Mephits don't really fly though, they just hover at eye level indefinitely, they'd be a lot more challenging if they used their flight to their advantage.

Flight and other travel spells would be awesome, but i doubt it'll ever happen. Most quests i can think of wouldn't be all that hurt by them though.

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 07:34 AM
Mephits don't really fly though, they just hover at eye level indefinitely, they'd be a lot more challenging if they used their flight to their advantage.

Yes, that's also true of course. Anything that we get, they get too. Imagine if enemy casters started flying and you couldn't just run up to them and attack them first. Things might require a bit more strategy and tactics.


Flight and other travel spells would be awesome, but i doubt it'll ever happen. Most quests i can think of wouldn't be all that hurt by them though.

And I guess this is what it really boils down to for me. They would be awesome. Most quests wouldn't be affected by them. And I'm just getting really tired of the "Oh but it would break quests X, Y and Z" excuse. If they really need to they can flag quests X, Y and Z to not allow those spells. Or heck, if absolutely necessary, I wouldn't mind if they flagged all quests/explorer areas that existed prior to the spells implementations as not allowing them and then just designed future quests with these spells in mind.

Missing_Minds
10-10-2007, 08:00 AM
I've highlighted the relevant part. You're actually mixing it up with Teleport. Teleport you have to have been somewhere or at least have a pretty good picture/description of it.

DD lets you say "I want the other end of the door to be 100 feet that way" whether you've been there or not.

No, MT. I'll quote your full part then that you did goof on so you understand.





This way you can only DD to some place you have been before.

This is, technically speaking, how DD is supposed to work though.

This is NOT how DD is supposed to work. You have never had to have been to a place to make it work. That is why I said you goofed. You got it correct after I posted its description in the SRD. Now, maybe you posted more that was correct, I can't check because of how the forum listing goes. (aka I can't find the original that started this in the "reply to post" thread the forum gives us.)

Aesop
10-10-2007, 08:02 AM
Ok here's a thought


For existing Dungeons set maximum Flight/Levitate height at Max Jump Height. With the ability to fly up ladders. For areas you don't want people to fly into just add the invisi-walls. Same thing in Public Areas. If you don't want people in there put up walls.

In new dungeons you can tweak it to be Dungeon appropriate.

Use the same basic controls you use for Swimming just minus the swim animation. The key that brings people to the surfae faster just change it to actually bring people to the surface... whether up or down.

pretty much all bad guys have ranged attacks... except animals, so the its not as though the advantage is too astronomical.


For Dimension Door have it a two part click. One to activate the spell and the second to range it out to where you want it to go.

Maybe a half form template marker to show where it will land. make it line of sight so people can't DD through doors and walls (gates you might consider letting it work... maybe at least in some places.

Anyway that's my thought

Aesop

Aesop
10-10-2007, 08:03 AM
No, MT. I'll quote your full part then that you did goof on so you understand.



This is NOT how DD is supposed to work. You have never had to have been to a place to make it work. That is why I said you goofed. You got it correct after I posted its description in the SRD. Now, maybe you posted more that was correct, I can't check because of how the forum listing goes. (aka I can't find the original that started this in the "reply to post" thread the forum gives us.)

I think he meant that his original was how it works not Orosini's... could be wrong... just bad wording though


Aesop

Spectralist
10-10-2007, 08:15 AM
Use the same basic controls you use for Swimming just minus the swim animation. The key that brings people to the surfae faster just change it to actually bring people to the surface... whether up or down.

Or they could just do what CoH does and have one button for ascend and one for descend, other then that it would be the same as swim(and that would be useful while swimming too!)

MysticTheurge
10-10-2007, 08:27 AM
This is NOT how DD is supposed to work. You have never had to have been to a place to make it work. That is why I said you goofed. You got it correct after I posted its description in the SRD. Now, maybe you posted more that was correct, I can't check because of how the forum listing goes. (aka I can't find the original that started this in the "reply to post" thread the forum gives us.)

Ahh, I see the problem. I meant to say that's not how DD works, but forgot to include my "not." Then you disagreed with what I said. Only I thought you disagreed with what I thought I had said (which wasn't what I had actually said) and thus there's been much confusion.

Alexander_Illusioni
10-10-2007, 08:56 AM
How about just a fix to Greater Teleport, to allow us to actually cast it when not in a dungeon.:) :)

Missing_Minds
10-10-2007, 09:00 AM
Ahh, I see the problem. I meant to say that's not how DD works, but forgot to include my "not." Then you disagreed with what I said. Only I thought you disagreed with what I thought I had said (which wasn't what I had actually said) and thus there's been much confusion.

Don't you just love it when that happens. *chuckles*

Kaldais
10-10-2007, 09:37 AM
Here's my idea of a DD. usable only in an instance.

caster cast DD, popup appears with option of Anchor/Seed or Door. If anchor/seed is selected, a DD icon appeared as a buff icon. If the caster moves beyond the 400+40ft/level range of the spell, the anchor icon expires.
When Door option is choosed on the second cast of DD, a two way door appears where caster is standing(not on cursor target) and at the place where the anchor/seed was placed lasting 1rd/caster level. All creatures will be able to move freely between those two door ways, Monsters included(AI will have to be adjusted.)
If a DD is casted without first designate an anchor/seed, current version of DD is used.

Add the spell dimensional anchoring to the monster spell list.

muffinlad
10-10-2007, 04:10 PM
Yeah I found the fast travel powers too fast in quests.

The funny thing is that the CoH equivalent of haste "Speed Boost" is almost univerally hated by players because it increases movement speed beyond easy control. Maybe hate is too strong. More like a love/hate relationship because they love the increased attack rate and endurance though.


This is a misrepresentation. CoH quests scale to number of players. Sure a CoH "Heroic" quest solo is easier than soloing a DDO "Normal" quest because DDO quests are designed to challenge 4 players.

If you opened a CoH quest scaled for four players it is significantly more difficult than an equivalent DDO quest.

As stated, all my opinion......

1) I loved mission scaling. Great Feature of CoH, and one I use in my PnP games all the time (Hmmm, 10 players.....need another dragon......)

2) The Hard missions in CoH were the Respec mission at 30 and 40 (50 was a breeze), and their version of the WF Titan....which was called a Cronos Titan as I recall, which could pop on you in one chain "out doors" and every hero in the area could fight it (so if there are three of you, three fight, if there are 50, 50 fight).

Honestly, I never, ever had a hard mission other than those (and, yes, I was sent to the Hospital plenty of times) but.....flat out...CoH missions are very, very easy, and I found the mission challenge way off for the setting. One of the reasons I left, and I am pretty far away from being uber or leet.

Regs,


muffinlad, aka muffinlad the scrapper