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View Full Version : Yet Another Look at Stealth in DDO



Ghoste
10-08-2007, 03:32 AM
So you think you know how stealth works in DDO? If that's the case, I'd like to hear some explanations about what's going on in this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZv84M_mZHk)

It's quite a bit longer than the other two, just to make sure people are seeing all the same details I see.

I've noticed some odd things about stealth for a while now. Some people have said it works fine, so I made another video pushing the programming of DDO quite a bit further to really illustrate this as clearly as possible.

I did some more tests, and found I knew less than I thought I did about stealth. The first point the video addresses is the continuous bonuses a creature gets to spot the longer you sit in front of them.

I've also addressed:
-re-stealthing; when is it possible
-monster radar; the circumstances that lead to it, and those that don't (by radar I mean monsters following you with an incrimental time delay as opposed to in real time).
-and using stealth to create a complete breakdown in AI.

Two things are needed to duplicate the results of this video: reasonably high stealth skills, and invisibility.

Enjoy.

Ghoste
10-08-2007, 03:33 AM
Says the video is live, but the site seems to be having problems loading it...

***Edit*** ok seems to be working now.

oronisi
10-08-2007, 08:10 AM
Again, thanks! That's a nice vid of different senarios. Thanks for doing that work. Actually, some of the systems work better than I was thinking. I need to get some invis pots on my rogue for hiding in plain sight.

Hopefully you got your point across....this vid is much more in depth and isolates the issue you are trying to convey alot more.

Snike
10-08-2007, 08:14 AM
Stealth in PvP would be awsome in the team vs. team areas.

Great video btw. Many casters don't realize Invis clickies are awsome for decreasing the damage they take while firewall'ing and jumping/running around.

I'd still like to get a difinitive answer on if move silently skill is "always on" and is in effect while using invis. I believe it is but have been able to verify.

Pwesiela
10-08-2007, 10:06 AM
Concerning the re-stealth scenario's out in the open (Currelian Hills?) You make the point that you could re-stealth without the two mobs finding you, but you were invised at the time of the stealth. Try again without invis and see if they loose you. My bet? They'll head right towards you. You may have been stealthed, but it was the invis that kept them from finding you. That having been said, yes, stealth has issues.

Snike
10-08-2007, 10:22 AM
Concerning the re-stealth scenario's out in the open (Currelian Hills?) You make the point that you could re-stealth without the two mobs finding you, but you were invised at the time of the stealth. Try again without invis and see if they loose you. My bet? They'll head right towards you. You may have been stealthed, but it was the invis that kept them from finding you. That having been said, yes, stealth has issues.

That is a good point, while his video is very informative, it begs to wonder if just active sneak can drop the active searching as well as invis.

MrCow
10-08-2007, 11:01 AM
In regards to the CR 2 hobgoblins having great aim on you while the Orchard of the Macabre did not:

Might this be an issue with the fact that hobgoblin marksmen are made to have primarily archer AI vs. primarily melee AI? The human subject in the Orchard has a melee AI that resorts to throwing daggers when it path to you or find you.

Gnoll archers, Zakra Cult Archers, and those elven rangers in the Orchard may make good confirmation subjects on the pin-point accuracy while stealth issue. Or might it just be things that use bows vs. things that throw things? *Shrugs*

Also, the kobold thrower has an archer AI, as it runs from you when it gets to close and lacks a melee attack. That could be why threw stuff in your general direction each time quite accurately.

In regards to zombies:

I have noticed that zombies tend to find me while in stealth 1-4 minutes after I enter their sight/sound area. One moment, they stand there and are oblivious, the next moment they could randomly start flailing in my general direction. You don't have to be in their sight range for this to occur. (Tomb of the Tormented is an awesome testing ground for this)

Mobs with randomized target aggro, such as zombies and golems, tend to be different in regards to stealth aggro from the rest of the monsters.

In regards to the kobold shaman:

Caster types tend to ignore stealth very well because they don't have to find your specific location to cast on you. This was much like the infamous tab-target-and-insta-death that arcanes used to do on monsters. Although, it doesn't explain why it was able to face you so well.

In regards to mobs just stopping when you get out of distance:

I've noticed in the past couple modules that monsters will stop following you if you get far enough away from them. This is why your friend the kobold warrior and the wolf stopped.

In regards to the mobs still doing nothing after you make your presence know again:

I'm at a loss for a great explanation here. I see this often when it comes to summoning anything and if the summoned pet dies in melee, whatever monster got the killing melee shot will stand still doing nothing.

Last night I also observed that this could be pathing related. For instance, in the Crypt of the Guard (Goodblade quest for the daggers) if you have someone harm the Captain of the Guard behind a shield blocked door it will just abruptly stop. From here, you can either keep doing ranged attacks while it remains inactive or go up to it and beat on it. Sometimes it will reacquire a target and become active again, sometimes it will stand inactive until it dies.

In regards to invisibility:

Invisibility will definitely change the outcome of your sneaking because even with just plain invisibility and no sneaking you get changes in monster AI. Many of these problems may be a combination of the AI changes for sneaking and the AI changes for invisibility.



All in all, you do pose some amazing findings in a visual sense with those videos. I salute you. :)

underlordone
10-08-2007, 11:14 AM
ok now I had to do some looking to on this. Now 44 hide move (ranger) I hit a gnoll with a arrow. ranged seemed to track me every where till I say till I got a good ways from him it took a hast and boost but he lost me.

Now I put the bow away and tride with just a hit with a sword. Well he was chaseing me np till I jump off a leage walked back to him he seemed to have beem tracken my last moves even when I had 30stride on and boost going.

Here's there kicker I thought I would get him stuck on some of his friends well he told them lol so now I 3 gnolls who know where I am at (44 hide move) and I never hit them. If I could find a way to record this useing windows I would post. Ghoste I in my test think its broke but the pots and higher skill seem to work the same.

The ranged attack and the following must mean there all rangers with TRACKING. Hmm you think. If they have the tracking ablity then I say nothing wrong but since its not in this format ( I would so take it ) then it has to be broken.

MrCow
10-08-2007, 12:17 PM
Did a couple tests in waterworks with kobolds, fear, and sneaking while not invisible. This is what I got:

A feared subject will usually run when feared. If the feared subject runs by an ally it will trigger the ally to perform a search in the direction the subject ran from. This does not cause instant aggro so long as you are sneaking and the search party can't see through your sneaking.

I attempted to see if I could shake off a kobold using sneak without invisibility (used haste and ranger action boost to make sure I could outpace the kobold) but I could not get it off. It was a reptilian homing missile without invisibility.

MrCow
10-08-2007, 12:34 PM
More testing, using nothing but waterworks kobolds and invisibility.

Just as a disclaimer, basic kobolds on normal have trouble detecting things with a move silent or hide greater than 4 (I think, its been a while since I found the ideal number for that).

I went back to Waterworks and noticed something somewhat odd with invisibility. When one of my characters (MS 27/Hide 20) stepped within 20 feet of a kobold while invisible but not sneaking they would perform a search action when I moved. The search action would head to the last spot I started moving (so if I started, stopped, and started again they would change to look at the second starting spot).

Intrigued, I decided to get one of my other characters (MS 0/Hide -6). The moment I got in range of the kobold they detected me automatically and started the standard crazy "Its invisible, where is it" routine, that is seen in Ghoste's movies.

I tried again with a higher sneak skill (MS 14/Hide 4) and the basic kobolds could not find me and did a search action, but the kobold warriors could pick me out in an instant.

Next, I reorganized my equipment (MS 10/Hide 4) and yet again, the basic kobolds searched for me and the kobold warrior spotted me just fine.

With the next test I put greater heroism on myself (MS 14/Hide 8) and all of the kobolds were back to the search pattern. It seemed that a good hide with invisibility was needed to remain undetected while not in sneak mode.

Progressing further, I took off my move silent item (MS 4/Hide 8) and the all the basic kobolds and kobold warriors went into a search pattern.

Last, but not least, I let greater heroism wear off and took off the command item I realized I had on the entire time (MS 0/Hide 10) and the kobolds still could not find me right off the bat.

So, to summarize:



MS Hide Outcome
27 20 Search Pattern for all
0 -6 Everything spotted me
14 4 Search Pattern for basic kobold, kobold warriors spotted me
10 4 Search Pattern for basic kobold, kobold warriors spotted me
14 8 Search Pattern for all
4 8 Search Pattern for all
0 10 Search Pattern for all


It seems that invisibility grants a psuedo-sneak while moving and only requires your hide modifier (without the supposed +20 from invisibility) to escape detection.

I hope this information is of some use to all of you DDO forum folk.

Qzipoun
10-08-2007, 12:53 PM
Something I noticed which might explain a few things. The zombie and human that you tested you first snuck up on and waited for them to spot you THEN you hit invisibility. For the hobgoblins/kobolds they saw you without sneak before you hit yourself with invisibility.

Maybe, for some odd reason, the way they react to sneak/invis is dependent on how they saw you in the first place?

Riddikulus
10-08-2007, 01:02 PM
invisibility grants a pseudo-sneakInvis grants an always on 20 hide... so yes it is like a pseudo-sneak. Going into sneak will also then add your hide and move silent to the score. Its likely that they can hear you but cant see you.

MrCow
10-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Invis grants an always on 20 hide

The stealth skills of Move Silently and Hide, along with the countering Spot and Listen skills, have been shown to be "Take 20" skills (if I am reading you right).

On the other hand, sneaking while not invisible you may find that around a 4 is the ideal hide skill for kobolds to not see you and somewhere around 6 is the ideal hide skill for kobold warriors to not find you. Based on my numbers, invisibility while not sneaking does not give a +20 hide skill, it just puts you into a form of sneak where you are always heard if you get close enough to a monster.

Either way, invisibility grants +20 while sneaking. When applying camoflauge, for instance, you will see that +10 modifier on your hide skill. When applying invisibility, on the other hand, you do not get any +20 modifier shown on your hide skill because it is situational.

A good test for this is to sneak up in front of a monster without getting attention, but so it is facing you, and then take sneak off. Within 6 seconds or when the monster moves it should detect you. This only works if you have a hide skill that is detectable by that monster (so you need a hide lower than about 8 to pull this off with kobolds, ideally -10 to 2).

Sometimes, what we are told and what is really happening are two different things... :(

Riddikulus
10-08-2007, 01:59 PM
The stealth skills of Move Silently and Hide, along with the countering Spot and Listen skills, have been shown to be "Take 20" skills (if I am reading you right).
No that is not at all what they are. Eladrin has said that they mobs start off at some base number and increase the longer you stand in front of them.


On the other hand, sneaking while not invisible you may find that around a 4 is the ideal hide skill for kobolds to not see you and somewhere around 6 is the ideal hide skill for kobold warriors to not find you. Based on my numbers, invisibility while not sneaking does not give a +20 hide skill, it just puts you into a form of sneak where you are always heard if you get close enough to a monster.
When not sneaking you have a zero move silently... maybe worse. That is how the mobs are finding you when invisible, and that's why they do that search/swipe movement on you.


Either way, invisibility grants +20 while sneaking. When applying camoflauge, for instance, you will see that +10 modifier on your hide skill. When applying invisibility, on the other hand, you do not get any +20 modifier shown on your hide skill because it is situational.
No I'm pretty sure invisibility is not so much a +20 to hide... it's more of a -20 to the mobs spot. Hide/Move Silent is only in effect when you are sneaking... invis is on all the time. That is a subtle but important difference.

I'm not real familiar with how camo works.


A good test for this is to sneak up in front of a monster without getting attention, but so it is facing you, and then take sneak off. Within 6 seconds or when the monster moves it should detect you. This only works if you have a hide skill that is detectable by that monster (so you need a hide lower than about 8 to pull this off with kobolds, ideally -10 to 2).

Sometimes, what we are told and what is really happening are two different things... :(
I think that is a demonstration of the increasing "spot" skill of the mobs... turning off sneak means your hide is zero.

When you are in front of the mob his spot starts off at -20(for invis) +his modifier and it increases as time passes with you right in front of him (there probably is even a take 10 if you are standing in his front arc as well).

At some point the total spot passes zero and you are spotted because your hide is zero when you are not sneaking.

MrCow
10-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Riddikulus, you are right. I completely forgot about the fact that monsters now have a spot that rises over time. I went back in waterworks and the things inside spotted me invisible (sneaking and not sneaking) after 20-40 seconds passed.

Raithe
10-08-2007, 03:32 PM
Holy misinterpretation batman.

1) The zombie stopped tracking you and started swinging randomly and otherwise behaving like a zombie about 2 seconds before you cast the invisibility. This was probably due to the distance you put between yourself and the zombie at the last minute so you could get the spell off.

2) The warrior was still tracking you, but once again had switched to missile because of the distance for safe spellcasting that you had subconsciously created. After you were invisible, the warrior was still throwing at your location, but you were moving around. Why? You shouldn't have been moving at all if you were trying to prove anything.

3) You have successfully identified that mob aggro mechanisms and behavior is very buggy. You can get them to "bug out" and go into a state that they shouldn't be in given the circumstances. Congratulations! Though most of us have known about it since about a week after we started playing...

The bottom line is that you shouldn't be messing around with stealth in any of the following situations:

1) You personally have aggrod mobs that are still in your close proximity.
2) You are dealing with wraiths or vermin.
3) Your stealth skills aren't superb and you are confronting fire giants/drow/etc. who have "See Invisibility."

Some of us that built rogues as our main and original characters have been dealing with stealth issues for a really long time now. You aren't going to surprise us with some great "discovery" about the mechanics of stealth... or aggro.

Ghoste
10-08-2007, 04:35 PM
Regarding the question about "safe spellcasting" distance:
-that was not anywhere near far enough to lose their agro and re-stealth. You say you have been playing a rogue for a long time, so you already know yourself that's not even close. Test it yourself if you dont believe me. The zombie started swinging because he had gotten close enough to attempt an attack, if you watched even more closely, you can see for a short time after he stops swinging, he moves right at me, and then turns around and begins searching as soon as invis was cast.

Regarding the warrior throwing right at me:
-yes there were times I was moving, but there's also plenty of time I'm standing still and he wasn't throwing right at me.
-The only time he was throwing right at me, was after i went up to him, circled around in front and bumped into his face. Before that, no, it was obviously completely random.

See Invisibility, etc.:'
-close proximity: how close do you mean? My first two videos show me going much further away from the test subjects without losing them than I did from the zombie, yet you claim I was so far away from the zombie that stealth had nothing to do with losing his attention. Perhaps you could demonstrate exactly how far you mean, because your meaning of this seems to change from post to post.
-very few giants in the game have see invis, have no problems sneaking past the ones that do.
-vermin? Um...vermin are pretty easy to sneak by, unless you mean spiders and oozes. But rats and scorpions are easy.
-Wraiths, ya usually hard to sneak by, but it can be done. Helps that they don't have see invis. In fact anyone who's been playing a wizard for any decent length of time can tell you invis is great for getting hit much less by wraiths in your firewall.

Not gonna surprise anyone? Lol, you're the one who said just yesterday in another thread that it was impossible to re-stealth at all. Guess I can't surprise you though if even though you have the evidence right under your nose you want to believe something else. It's nothing new to me though; I've been reading these forums since headstart, so I'm familiar with the attitude.

BTW, in case you failed to pick up on it, Myth #2 was a word for word quote from yourself. Hmm, perhaps you didn't miss that. Perhaps you picked up on it right away and took offense and decided to make it your mission to expose that mouthy little fraud, Ghoste. :D

Ghoste
10-08-2007, 04:46 PM
Riddikulus, you are right. I completely forgot about the fact that monsters now have a spot that rises over time. I went back in waterworks and the things inside spotted me invisible (sneaking and not sneaking) after 20-40 seconds passed.
Ya, I noticed this too. Not included in the video (it was getting way too long) was me sitting invis and sneaking in front of a kobold. It took him over a minute, but he eventually spotted me.

Raithe
10-08-2007, 07:00 PM
that was not anywhere near far enough to lose their agro and re-stealth...


Actually with zombies it probably is. My caster, when running "Tomb of the Tormented" the first time, initially would evade the aggro of the unkillable "Hunks of Rotten Flesh" by just getting far enough away from them in the room that they "lost aggro." (Eventually I learned to stone them so they weren't an issue.)



Regarding the warrior throwing right at me:
-yes there were times I was moving, but there's also plenty of time I'm standing still and he wasn't throwing right at me.
-The only time he was throwing right at me, was after i went up to him, circled around in front and bumped into his face. Before that, no, it was obviously completely random.


Blindness, Glitterdust, and sometimes Invisibility (if cast on the primary aggro target) do seem to often affect mobs so that they don't track very well. From my experience, this does not mean that aggro was lost. If for some reason the spell effects that were conferring the "blindness" state are removed, the mob will return to tracking normally. Nowhere in your video (except for maybe the zombie) did you actually lose aggro. Stealth (in the PvE game, at least) is simply a means for avoiding the incurrence of aggro. You are having issues with game mechanics that really don't have anything to do with stealth.



Not gonna surprise anyone? Lol, you're the one who said just yesterday in another thread that it was impossible to re-stealth at all.


No, what I said was that you can't stealth by mobs you have aggroed anymore. I also said that re-stealthing does not remove you from aggro lists, and probably shouldn't. When you are sneaking, you are in stealth mode. When a mob finds you and puts you on their aggro list, you generally come out of stealth mode for some reason or another (they hit you, etc.) Going back into stealth mode does nothing to help you against those particular mobs. If you have evidence to the contrary, please make a video so we can see it.

Ghoste
10-08-2007, 07:20 PM
I know what you said
K, I do believe that some people are thoroughly confused now. Let me reiterate a very important point.

Once you are on a mob's aggro list, they DO NOT NEED to make any spot/listen checks against you. You are on their aggro list, and they are continuously looking for any telltale signs at all (footprints, dust, etc.) of your presence. You have been observed and can no longer sneak or invis past these particular mobs. (Though running with haste and sprint boost is definitely an option...)

Bumping into a monster puts you on their aggro list regardless of any stealth considerations.
So you're trying to tell me that zombie, and the warrior, and the kobolds and the wolf and the hobgoblins were all behaving identically to how they would have had I been standing out in the open, no invisibility? All behaving as if they didn't need to make any spot checks?

No. You say you're very familiar with stealth, so how can you be missing such obvious differences? Call it what you will, those monsters were all behaving as if they had lost the exact location of their target. And don't bother trying to use the zombie as an example, I have already pointed out to you something you missed: the zombie was running at me for a moment there and changed his behavior exactly when invis was cast. Exactly. You say them knowing I'm there somewhere isn't stealth and I can't sneak by them. Well, they sure weren't following me anymore. Sure looks like I was sneaking all around them, so why not past them.

It's pretty easy to stealth by creatures who have your agro. The video shows that over and over.

I've never claimed that fully stealthing loses their agro. The issue has been about how well they track you once you are on their agro list, which is what is necessary to understand if you want to sneak by them once you have their agro.

Lol, if you keep on insisting on those points, how about I make a video with that exact same zombie and show you exactly how far you have to go without invis to get him to stop following you? No, you don't want me to because you already know the truth. I don't know why you said what you said, but I have a hard time believing you believe your own words.

Raithe
10-08-2007, 07:58 PM
It's pretty easy to stealth by creatures who have your agro.

I assume you meant "It's pretty easy to stealth by creatures who are aggroed on you." This statement reflects why you are having problems understanding. Stealth is a mechanism for avoiding aggro. It is not necessarily a way to "get around" a mob. You can walk right by any mob in the game. Most of the time you'll either take damage or avoid it by having a high armor class.

So your statement is self-contradictory. You can't "stealth by" creatures who you have aggroed, because the whole purpose of the stealth was to avoid their aggro. I feel kind of moronic for having to repeat such blatantly obvious logic so many times.



Lol, if you keep on insisting on those points, how about I make a video with that exact same zombie and show you exactly how far you have to go without invis to get him to stop following you? No, you don't want me to because you already know the truth. I don't know why you said what you said, but I have a hard time believing you believe your own words.

Actually, go right ahead and make that video. Like I said already, I just ran "Tomb of the Tormented" on my caster - where all I had to do to get away from the unwanted zombie aggro was to cross the room to the other side quickly.

Ghoste
10-08-2007, 08:17 PM
No, what I said was that you can't stealth by mobs you have aggroed anymore. I also said that re-stealthing does not remove you from aggro lists, and probably shouldn't. When you are sneaking, you are in stealth mode. When a mob finds you and puts you on their aggro list, you generally come out of stealth mode for some reason or another (they hit you, etc.) Going back into stealth mode does nothing to help you against those particular mobs. If you have evidence to the contrary, please make a video so we can see it.
Ok Boy-Wonder, first off, what do you mean by stealth? Do you mean they know you're there, but may not know exactly where?

1stealth
Pronunciation: 'stelth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
1 a archaic : THEFT b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information -- Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

From what I understand, it means they cannot perceive you, which is separate from having good reason to know there is something there that they want to perceive. I feel kind of moronic having to go over such elementary definitions...

I have never claimed one can simply click on stealth and they stop seeing where you are. I have only said that works in conjunction with invisibility. If you believe I have said otherwise, perhaps you would provide us with a quote and a link.

As far as a video, ok. Same zombie. You said I ran out of his range. Watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1H1lXMGjeY). I put even more range between myself and the zombie, yet it doesn't stop following as you predict it should. Only when I haste and run far enough away that, on my graphics setting, I can't even see it anymore does it stop following. Clearly a big difference between that and your interpretation of the previous video.

Then I accidentally grab the attention of a flesh golem as well. No biggie, I'll use them both to show this. I let them both come up face to face and attack me, cast invis...perhaps the Boy-Wonder can explain their behavior at that point, because he clearly knows I'm not stealthed. He clearly knows they are both aware of my exact location. So...perhaps he can explain why they were walking around swatting at thin air?

You say I can't stealth by monsters who have agro on me. I've shown I can walk by them without them knowing where I am or following me. Call it what you will, but it still works.

Raithe
10-08-2007, 08:57 PM
1stealth
Pronunciation: 'stelth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
1 a archaic : THEFT b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information -- Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

From what I understand, it means they cannot perceive you, which is separate from having good reason to know there is something there that they want to perceive. I feel kind of moronic having to go over such elementary definitions...


Well good, because you basically got it wrong. Notice the words I bolded. Stealth (even as it is used commonly) is about committing an act without the knowledge of those who would try to stop you, or perhaps punish you. It is not about someone not knowing where you are currently at, it's about them not knowing you were even there to begin with.



As far as a video, ok. Same zombie. You said I ran out of his range. Watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1H1lXMGjeY). I put even more range between myself and the zombie, yet it doesn't stop following as you predict it should. Only when I haste and run far enough away that, on my graphics setting, I can't even see it anymore does it stop following. Clearly a big difference between that and your interpretation of the previous video.


I can't watch the video, but I did run into the Orchard and do a little verifying myself. I aggroed a zombie and a golem together, and was able to lose the zombie quickly at a fairly short distance. The golem was not lost as easily. I think the behavior of zombies to suddenly "lose aggro" on someone is more pronounced when there are other targets close by, however. I also said that in your first video the actions of the zombie was probably due to time and distance considerations. It might have been similar to the warrior - it just looked suspicious because the zombie seemed to lose track shortly before the invis spell was cast - but then zombies kind of do that.



You say I can't stealth by monsters who have agro on me. I've shown I can walk by them without them knowing where I am or following me. Call it what you will, but it still works.

Until it doesn't.

Ghoste
10-08-2007, 09:16 PM
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly

If the word "and" were there, you would be correct. I have proven the absence of perception.

As far as "until it doesn't", from my numerous tests, there are two situations I have seen where that is the case. If you stealth and invis, dont get their attention until you bump into them. And then it sort of does work, and sort of doesn't. It's very buggy.The second case, is with hobgoblins. But also very buggy.

parvo
10-08-2007, 11:43 PM
The visual arc is the important difference between the single outdoor mobs and the indoor ones. Outdoors you moved well away from them and outside their visual arcs. Indoors you did not, so their spot skills likely remained high. Remember mobs in close proximity share information so in the case of multiples you probably have to move out of all visual arcs in order for their spots to go back to normal. I think you finally did that late in the Hobgoblin video.

I've seen a lot of mobs act like the Kobolds did (basically unresponsive). I'm not sure (the video's are pretty blurry) but I think that is a fairly common bug I've seen. Happens with or without stealth after some mobs are alerted or aggro'ed for long periods of time.

I learned a lot from Eladrin's explainations. I had an idea how it worked but the mechanics are more sophisticated than I thought. Very nice!

Ghoste
10-09-2007, 12:03 AM
As far as the visual arc, keep in mind that is something that increases their spot over time. With the CR 9 zombie, it took him over a minute to finally accrue enough bonuses to spot me. The CR 2 hobgoblins only had a matter of seconds. Eventually they would have been able to spot me, but I believe that comparison eliminates that as an explanation of why they behaved so differently, given the amount of time involved.

parvo
10-09-2007, 07:07 AM
As far as the visual arc, keep in mind that is something that increases their spot over time. With the CR 9 zombie, it took him over a minute to finally accrue enough bonuses to spot me. The CR 2 hobgoblins only had a matter of seconds. Eventually they would have been able to spot me, but I believe that comparison eliminates that as an explanation of why they behaved so differently, given the amount of time involved.

From the video it looked like about 20 seconds for the zombie to spot you. I couldn't tell how many eyes you had. Try the same type of spot move on the Hobgoblins. Go invis and stealth then walk up close to them. See how long it takes. Remember the number of eyes does two things; It can give the mob a circumstance bonus to spot and it can decrease the time interval for spot increases. The more eyes you have, the faster their spot increases. I think that is how you lost the Hobgoblins near the entrance of STK. You were moving around in a highly lit area then moved to a "one eye" area, the "one eye" area might have dropped their spot down enough for them to lose you. I don't think they acted much differently then the melee warrior you stealthed up to. The difference looked like distance and visual arc. As far as the zombie goes, their AI is crazy (and I think it's great!). I'm not sure zombies are a good test subject because they might really hate butterflies. Who knows with them?

Ghoste
10-09-2007, 01:21 PM
The video was edited because it was getting really long. It was over a minute for the zombie. I already know a CR 9 zombie has higher starting spot than CR 2 hobgoblins, lol. No need to test that.

Snike
10-09-2007, 01:33 PM
I still want to know if you can drop the active searching with just sneak, without the use of invis.

Ghoste
10-09-2007, 01:42 PM
I still want to know if you can drop the active searching with just sneak, without the use of invis.
You're not supposed to be able to, and the second vidI posted does show a very brief attempt at that. I end up dying after trying that.

Snike
10-09-2007, 11:51 PM
Maybe rogues at a certain level should be able to do what you can do with invis...

MrCow
10-10-2007, 12:13 AM
Maybe rogues at a certain level should be able to do what you can do with invis...

Its called Hiding in Plain Sight.

Its an ability rangers get at level 17 and shadowdancers get at level 1 (although we don't have prestige classes... so ignore the shadowdancer bit).

parvo
10-10-2007, 07:08 AM
We can already hide in plain sight. No cover. No concealment. No problem.

Riddikulus
10-10-2007, 08:18 AM
We can already hide in plain sight. No cover. No concealment. No problem.
That is not what it means.

Hide in plain sight means you are just standing there, being watched by the mobs, and then you disappear.

If you are being watched by mobs now, you cannot hide. Well you can try, but it won't work, they will immediately run to you. You can even break LOS and they will continue to run to you. :rolleyes:

phinius
10-10-2007, 09:19 AM
If you are being watched by mobs now, you cannot hide. Well you can try, but it won't work, they will immediately run to you. You can even break LOS and they will continue to run to you. :rolleyes:

You can even leave the quest and when you return they are all rushing down the path/hallway/passage right for you. Not all mobs behave this way but many do.

Certain hobgoblins already have the Hide In Plain Sight skill. Even when they are targeted they will just disappear.

I see no reason why breaking LOS will not reset spot skills and allow a player to initiate sneak. Granted they still know someone is nearby but they cannot SEE that player any longer or know what that player just did (entered stealth and hid behind a box). As I said above, you can even leave the instance and once you return they automatically track you, on the opposite side of the dungeon, and sneaking does nothing to prevent it.

If they can implement escalating spot/listen skills they can implement decaying aggro.

Consider a party of 4 players. The rogue accidentally gains aggro moving through the dungeon and retreats back to the party. The fighters and casters engage those mobs and the rogue slips around a corner, through a door or whatever. The rogue enters sneak and remains hidden. No mob should have any idea where that rogue went even if they still strongly believe the rogue is still nearby. Especially once another player attacked that mob. Realistically that rogue could have went screaming all the way home, went to get reinforcements, continued back down the same hallway, crawled inside a box to apply some poison. The mob doesnt know because the mob cant see what the rogue did after he left LOS.

I realize the video examples were only a solo player but the same results happen with a full party nearby.

Should the 'See Invisibility' ability detect anything that is invisible at any time regardless of non-magical concealment? Sneak through giant caves and see how far you get. You will likely reach at least the big room with the ledge. Next drink an invis pot and try again on a fresh instance. The first fire giant you encounter will nuke you.