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View Full Version : Black Abbot Raid Closed.



Quarion
10-05-2007, 02:07 PM
We are aware of some issues surrounding the new raid, which may result in an exploitable situation. We have closed the quest so that we may make changes to block the exploits, and hope to have them open again early next week.

We apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your patience.

Mad_Bombardier
10-05-2007, 02:10 PM
I'm sure you'll take flak from legitimate gamers over closing the mission. But, these gamers should also understand that you're working in the best interest of the game. Thanks, Q. :)

Rowanheal
10-05-2007, 02:13 PM
All I can say is thank the gods...

Thank you :)

Have a great gaming weekend :)

See ya Stormreach,

-R

Sharzade
10-05-2007, 02:13 PM
Fixing those exploits is good. ;) May all the wins be just ones.

Gratch
10-05-2007, 02:15 PM
Please fix the goggles while you're there.

ChildrenofBodom
10-05-2007, 02:16 PM
I don't get it, why are you happy they close the raid til next week? What is the exploit that is so bad? You guys have never fixed an exploit this fast before. Today was the first day we were going to have all guildies on to try the Abbot raid over and over cause we would always seem to only have 5 on at a time. This is great.....(sarcasm)

Chameleo
10-05-2007, 02:17 PM
I understand that it needs to be fixed and I am happy that we finally got a response. Just bummed that I won't be able to try it out this weekend as I am finally flagged. :(

Oh well, plenty of time to flag all of my other guys and gals. :)

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 02:20 PM
While I haven't done the raid yet and I am clamoring to do so, this exploit/bug was potentially game-breaking. Good job guys.

tihocan
10-05-2007, 02:20 PM
I don't get it, why are you happy they close the raid til next week?
Because it's better than keeping it open in its current state.

Riddikulus
10-05-2007, 02:20 PM
Good move.

Dylos_Moon
10-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Please fix the goggles while you're there.

goggles are already fixed, they are destroyed on death.

Scarsgaard
10-05-2007, 02:24 PM
/angry...

Slink
10-05-2007, 02:27 PM
So does this closure affect the preraid as well or just the main raid?

Mockduck
10-05-2007, 02:27 PM
Good move, in my opinion. From everything I've heard, read, been emailed, etc....sounds like it was a real issue.

Yukiko
10-05-2007, 02:28 PM
Be glad they care about the quality of game plan and how exploits effect everyone.

Chelsa
10-05-2007, 02:28 PM
/happy

PurePandemonium
10-05-2007, 02:31 PM
Good move! If it was left open it may have killed mod 5 all together

Mavnimo
10-05-2007, 02:32 PM
goggles are already fixed, they are destroyed on death.

that wasn't the problem with the goggles if u bothered to read it. if u have the goggles in inventory or equiped when trying to recall/teleport/slash death out of the quest u get stuck on a load screen and need a gm to get u unstuck.

also glad its closed. at least they decided to say something publicly about it finally.

DolfaTrueheart
10-05-2007, 02:36 PM
N/m!

Borrigain
10-05-2007, 02:40 PM
Pre-raid is still open right?

Borr.

Qzipoun
10-05-2007, 02:42 PM
I was just about to call Kargon to propose he go have a slime bath in there with the abbot, that would have gotten it closed faster :D

maddmatt70
10-05-2007, 02:43 PM
also glad its closed. at least they decided to say something publicly about it finally.

I hear you. It is just that I know of two guilds on khyber that were planning to do an all guild raid this weekend - they were up to 7-8 raid ready folks and would have had more by the weekend so they could have made their first runs as a guild. On a personal note I would have had my bard ready tonight and my fighter would have come off of "timer" (if there was one) sometime this weekend. A small goggle bug aside there is nothing wrong with the raid itself which is why it is so frustrating...

Solstyse
10-05-2007, 02:43 PM
Good job and thanks.
The only thing I dislike more than possible exploits are the people who use them.

Qzipoun
10-05-2007, 02:44 PM
This is a situation where the forum crybabys win while the rest of us, those who legitimately want to do the raid, suffer.

How about those who want to ILLEGITIMATELY do the raid? How are we to differentiate between those who will run it once and those who will exploit it fifty times?

So yes, we the "crybabys" have "won" :rolleyes:

akla_thornfist
10-05-2007, 02:45 PM
so much for raiding this weekend, oh well guess it will have to wait. not happy but what can you do cant fight city hall!

loki523
10-05-2007, 02:51 PM
Weak. Should have been done earlier in the week when we reported it rather than closing it for the weekend on a Friday. That or wait until Monday.

Gambit
10-05-2007, 02:52 PM
How about those who want to ILLEGITIMATELY do the raid? How are we to differentiate between those who will run it once and those who will exploit it fifty times?

So yes, we the "crybabys" have "won" :rolleyes:

Just stand outside the raid entrance 24/7 so you can police the zone-in and report any suspicious behavior. Then you will feel all warm inside and know that you did the right thing for the rest of us. How many groups do you really think are beating the raid at this point? Besides, Indago just beat the abbot raid the other day and got 0 raid loot drops, so yet you win again!


/so much for getting raid ready and running it this weekend!

not really trying to be a jerk, just frustrated!

binnsr
10-05-2007, 02:53 PM
/clap

Good Call, Turbine. For once, exploit early, exploit often won't work!

Letum_Telum
10-05-2007, 02:55 PM
What was the "exploit"? Was it really that bad that it had to be shut down?
My toons are not even flagged for it yet...still need 7 sigils and three of the quests anyway :P

binnsr
10-05-2007, 02:56 PM
What was the "exploit"? Was it really that bad that it had to be shut down?
My toons are not even flagged for it yet...still need 7 sigils and three of the quests anyway :P

those threads all got deleted ... not saying more :D

Twerpp
10-05-2007, 03:00 PM
Hey maybe next time just delay the mod so you release a quality non-bugged mod as opposed to having an on-time mod with bugs that you have to go back and fix.

Chelsa
10-05-2007, 03:00 PM
Look at it this way. The Euros got the Mod this week, Thursday I believe, and the raid was closed. So, it was bad enough to not even have it active in the Euro.

Riddikulus
10-05-2007, 03:01 PM
/so much for getting raid ready this weekend!
I don't think anything is preventing you from getting raid ready.

Gambit
10-05-2007, 03:04 PM
I don't think anything is preventing you from getting raid ready.


With the intent of ACTUALLY running it this weekend too.

dragnmoon
10-05-2007, 03:05 PM
Though I am a little upset that this obvious exploit made it live (How can you miss that?) I am glad you closed it to fix it.. Thanks!!!!

aldan
10-05-2007, 03:06 PM
I don't get it, why are you happy they close the raid til next week? What is the exploit that is so bad? You guys have never fixed an exploit this fast before. Today was the first day we were going to have all guildies on to try the Abbot raid over and over cause we would always seem to only have 5 on at a time. This is great.....(sarcasm)

about time to close it....thanks for the fix.

pana
10-05-2007, 03:12 PM
the timer issue was NOT a expoit in any way shape or form. it was and is a programmers error. You do not do anything illiegal according to game terms to not get a raid timer. If people where alt f4 or rubber banding or loging out as such that would be a diffrent story. This issue was caused by the programmers not the community. yet the community suffers. Turbine knew about this at the beginning of the week mon. I myself filed a bug report, emailed them, called them(and was told it was not a exploit by dan in costumer service and the QA department). So instead of fixing the issue so everyone can raid this weekend, they instead choose to shut it down. Yet again another form of non costumer service on turbines part GG way to go.

Sharzade
10-05-2007, 03:13 PM
At least we have good guy players who report the exploits rather than using them. That's always a plus! :)

Cheers,

Sharzade

Qzipoun
10-05-2007, 03:14 PM
Just stand outside the raid entrance 24/7 so you can police the zone-in and report any suspicious behavior. Then you will feel all warm inside and know that you did the right thing for the rest of us.

Why would I do that when Turbine can simply close the raid and fix it? ;)


How many groups do you really think are beating the raid at this point? Besides, Indago just beat the abbot raid the other day and got 0 raid loot drops, so yet you win again!

Huh, we had proof that at least one guild was exploiting the raid. Maybe you just missed the threads because they got deleted. It doesn't matter if you get 0 loot or 12 loot, an exploit is an exploit.

rockcrown
10-05-2007, 03:15 PM
Though I am a little upset that this obvious exploit made it live (How can you miss that?) I am glad you closed it to fix it.. Thanks!!!!

/agreed

I'm glad they closed it, I just wish they had done it sooner. :eek:

Hydro
10-05-2007, 03:15 PM
Turbine forgot to implement a raid timer, there was no exploit.

rockcrown
10-05-2007, 03:18 PM
the timer issue was NOT a expoit in any way shape or form. it was and is a programmers error.

I agree, however I think the exploit that truly closed the quest happens inside the quest itself.

Barumar
10-05-2007, 03:18 PM
/clap

Good Call, Turbine. For once, exploit early, exploit often won't work!

Hate to be the one to bring this up, but it has been exploited all week! Probably not by a whole lot of people, but it has been.

While I am glad they finally closed it, they should have days ago IMHO...

dragnmoon
10-05-2007, 03:18 PM
the timer issue was NOT a expoit in any way shape or form. it was and is a programmers error. You do not do anything illiegal according to game terms to not get a raid timer. If people where alt f4 or rubber banding or loging out as such that would be a diffrent story. This issue was caused by the programmers not the community. yet the community suffers. Turbine knew about this at the beginning of the week mon. I myself filed a bug report, emailed them, called them(and was told it was not a exploit by dan in costumer service and the QA department). So instead of fixing the issue so everyone can raid this weekend, they instead choose to shut it down. Yet again another form of non costumer service on turbines part GG way to go.

Pana.. I understand your frustraion.. But.. Any Using a Bug for your adavantage is an exploit... Where ever told you differently is wrong.

A Bug by deffintion is a programmers fault..

Saying you did nothing to make the Bug/Exploit happen but that is what built in by accident is not considered an excuse by Turbine. First time.. they will let you get away with it since the person did not know better (most likely).. But if someone continued to use that bug/exploit to thier advantage then it is a offense in turbine eyes.

This exact same bug/exploit (Or something very similar) happened in the past and people got banned for it.

dragnmoon
10-05-2007, 03:22 PM
For those people who do not think Using a Bug is an Exploit and bannable this is from the Eula.

5. While playing the game or participating in the Game, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the game’s normal playability, causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software (for example, deliberately using game bugs or loopholes to disrupt the game or dropping excessive items or summoning excessive portals).


18. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world. You may report bugs at ddobugs@turbine.com.

LordDamax
10-05-2007, 03:23 PM
the timer issue was NOT a expoit in any way shape or form. it was and is a programmers error. You do not do anything illiegal according to game terms to not get a raid timer. If people where alt f4 or rubber banding or loging out as such that would be a diffrent story. This issue was caused by the programmers not the community. yet the community suffers. Turbine knew about this at the beginning of the week mon. I myself filed a bug report, emailed them, called them(and was told it was not a exploit by dan in costumer service and the QA department). So instead of fixing the issue so everyone can raid this weekend, they instead choose to shut it down. Yet again another form of non costumer service on turbines part GG way to go.

I got $5 on who benefited/exploted this? Any takers? :)

Twerpp
10-05-2007, 03:27 PM
Turbine forgot to implement a raid timer, there was no exploit.

If they forgot to implement a timer, is it the players responsibility to know that there even is or should be a timer?

pana
10-05-2007, 03:28 PM
neg dragon. This "bug" is no diffrent then any raid timer. we called. emailed. and reported the bug and where told we where welcome to continue to run it till fixed. Closing it on a weekend when turbine had all week to program the fix is a huge issue. I have no problem with them adding a timer to the raid. I would have had no issue if they added it now, The issue i have is they have plenty of time to fix it and they choose not to. they "take the weekend off" and come back to it later. If the programmer did not fix it, and we the community choose to continue a quest line that was offered to us. It is our right as a player to do so. We are not creating a uncontrolable amount of loot or up to this point stating it in boards.we reported the bug and where told we could run it as we see fit. The exploit would be using game mechanics to create a programming error in the came causing issues you stated. When you qoute context make sure you do it completely not partially.

loki523
10-05-2007, 03:28 PM
Sorry but there was no bug/exploit involving the raid timer. There was a rather large oversight by the developers, QA, etc. Those who repeated the raid exploited NOTHING by repeating the raid. The players were never told by the developers that there was any timer intended. The players were 100% correct in their assumption that, since there was no quest timer, there is nothing wrong with repeating it. Some of the players were even told by Turbine, "Our bad guys. Go ahead and do your thing until we fix it. No harm no foul."

99.9% of those who did not repeat the raid are people who CANNOT beat the raid at this time anyways and are therefore completely unaffected. Those people screaming "exploit" are in the wrong. Period.

Also completely moot. Legion was the first guild to beat the raid and encounter the timer issue. A bug report was filed as required. The problem is being fixed in as timely a manner as Turbine could manage. I give them props for NOT closing the raid until they had a solid fix ready but I'm disappointed that they didn't hold off until Monday for those people who haven't beaten it and planned on putting in some solid weekend hours...

dragnmoon
10-05-2007, 03:29 PM
Twerp....

Yes

SilverSong
10-05-2007, 03:29 PM
First off the NPC that gives the quest tells you that there is one.


Personaly I am glad they closed this, they should have done it ealier this week.

pana
10-05-2007, 03:30 PM
and yes i raided it i have 9 completions. I feel as if i did nothing wrong either. As i stated it is not my responsiblity to know there is a timer or not. That is the programmers. furthermore i dont care if they added a timer and let the raid stand. I care they had a whole week to fix it and they close shop for the weekend, POOR Peformance turbine indeed.

loki523
10-05-2007, 03:30 PM
If they forgot to implement a timer, is it the players responsibility to know that there even is or should be a timer?

Of course not.

Hokiewa
10-05-2007, 03:31 PM
While I haven't done the raid yet and I am clamoring to do so, this exploit/bug was potentially game-breaking. Good job guys.

Normally I agree with you Asp, but this was noticed over 36 hours ago. Threads were simply deleted on it, and people were threatened to be banned.

This is an prime example of POOR QA by the staff once again.

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 03:33 PM
We are aware of some issues surrounding the new raid, which may result in an exploitable situation. We have closed the quest so that we may make changes to block the exploits, and hope to have them open again early next week.

We apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your patience.

Boy wasnt that just inevitable.
Maybe you can get Haywire to build this quest. I'm sure it would go much better this time..

jjflanigan
10-05-2007, 03:34 PM
Wow...do you really believe that or are you just trying to clear up the guilt over knowing you were using an exploit?

All the new raids have timers. The text for the quest giver stated that this quest should have a timer. The timer was not functioning. You abused that fact, knowing full well it was not working as intended. Maybe, MAYBE, if the quest giver hadn't mentioned the timer in the screenshots shown multiple times, then I could buy the whole "I'm innocent, I didn't know, curse you turbine!"...but the fact is, the game explicitly stated that it should have a 3 day timer, you exploited...deal.

All bugs come from programmer error of some kind. All exploits are related to bugs in the code. Saying "This isn't an exploit, it was a programming error"...is like saying "That's not cheese, it's cheddar". They are one and the same, you know, we all know it.

I'm not going to say I hope you get punished for abusing the exploit, because that would be weak-sauce, but...seriously, don't try to come off like you weren't in the wrong and act all high-and-mighty being upset with Turbine. If they could have trusted players, like you, to not abuse the problem, they wouldn't have had to take it offline.

Perceval418
10-05-2007, 03:35 PM
and yes i raided it i have 9 completions. I feel as if i did nothing wrong either. As i stated it is not my responsiblity to know there is a timer or not. That is the programmers. furthermore i dont care if they added a timer and let the raid stand. I care they had a whole week to fix it and they close shop for the weekend, POOR Peformance turbine indeed.

All this aside, they could have closed the quest the day it was reported. We all saw how quickly the depths quests were closed because of infinite oozes, why was that more important than having no raid timer on end-game content?

Its a mystery o.O

dragnmoon
10-05-2007, 03:36 PM
I think what I quoted in the EULA is very clear..

Using a Bug to your advantage is an Exploit.

An exploit can be a bannable offense.

What was going on with the abbot was a bug.

Explain to me how it is not a bug?

A bug is an error in the program that causes the program to do things not as attended... that is what was happening.

Shadow_Flayer
10-05-2007, 03:36 PM
and yes i raided it i have 9 completions. I feel as if i did nothing wrong either. As i stated it is not my responsiblity to know there is a timer or not. That is the programmers. furthermore i dont care if they added a timer and let the raid stand. I care they had a whole week to fix it and they close shop for the weekend, POOR Peformance turbine indeed.

Right. They should leave the quest open all weekend so people can keep running it more often than Turbine intended them too.

Let's take bets. I'll bet when the raid comes back on line a) it will have the standard timer working; b) another 'exploit' or two that was referenced on the forums is fixed; c) it will be harder than before overall.

If I win the bet, I get a pony.

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 03:36 PM
My wish because of this.
Ban the people that exploited.
Then take away all of the hundreds of pieces of raid loot the people attained because of it.
Yu want to screw up the system destroy balance and exploit a quest. Go play solitaire or something like it. DDO is no exploiters zone.

loki523
10-05-2007, 03:39 PM
For those people who do not think Using a Bug is an Exploit and bannable this is from the Eula.

Awesome cut/paste skillz but we all know where to find this and have already read it.


5. While playing the game or participating in the Game, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the game’s normal playability

Repeating a quest over and over does not disrupt the game's normal playability for any of its users.



causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software

Repeating a quest over and over doesn't cause grief or alarm to other players or degrade the performance of other players' client software.


(for example, deliberately using game bugs or loopholes to disrupt the game or dropping excessive items or summoning excessive portals).

It is impossible to know if something is a bug or loophole unless the developers identify it as such. This is where Turbine fails...frequently. In any case, repeating the quest does not disrupt the game.



18. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world.

Again, it is impossible to know if an NPC giving you a quest is a game error, miscue, or bug or whether repeating the quest gives players an advantage that is unintended without an official say-so from Turbine. It is NOT the players' job or responsibility to make these assumptions.



You may report bugs at ddobugs@turbine.com.

The timer issue was reported as a potential bug as soon as it was encountered.

I'm assuming that you're one of the people arguing that repeating the quest is NOT an exploit since that is what you proved with your post. ;)

Barumar
10-05-2007, 03:40 PM
I have a question if this "issue" was not an exploit - why did the Dev's DELETE EVERY THREAD that mentioned it or made reference to it?

I actually see both points of view, and if people were told my Dev's - "go ahead and ransack it!" then who am I to say they cheated?

However, why the heavy hand by Turbine if it was not?

pana
10-05-2007, 03:41 PM
i would not personally have cared if they shut it down and focused on fixing it all week. No they closed it down and desided to take the weekend off. AGAIN there was no exploit as stated from turbine QA and costumer service. we did our part for it. The quest giver telling you there was a timer means that indeed he was bugged not the quest. why would he give you the raid completion text before you completed the quest. AGAIN has nothing to do with the community.

I got a idea complete the raid before you respond.

have a nice day!

Nataichal
10-05-2007, 03:41 PM
Hmmmm. Not too many have beaten the raid so far. Wonder who's getting burned for exploiting? :P

Crarites
10-05-2007, 03:41 PM
I have a question if this "issue" was not an exploit - why did the Dev's DELETE EVERY THREAD that mentioned it or made reference to it?

I actually see both points of view, and if people were told my Dev's - "go ahead and ransack it!" then who am I to say they cheated?

However, why the heavy hand by Turbine if it was not?

I find that quote highly unlikely

pana
10-05-2007, 03:42 PM
there was no "heavy hand" because they themselves messed up and didnt want to come out and express it.

Renegade66
10-05-2007, 03:44 PM
What was the "exploit"? Was it really that bad that it had to be shut down?
My toons are not even flagged for it yet...still need 7 sigils and three of the quests anyway :P

There was no "exploit" that I know of in how to beat the raid. There was a big question as to how long would you have to wait to repeat the raid and if you had to do anything to reflag for it. After beating it the first time, we found that the devs did a great thing and made it so you didn't have to rerun mindnumbing quests like Chains of Flame to reflag and that they did away with the timer. In essence you could go right back in. Seemed like awesome programming to me. I guess it ended up being "unintentional functionality" and a weekend without the new raid content.

Bummer

Hydro
10-05-2007, 03:44 PM
Wow so people should be banned for not reading quest NPC text....

The reason no one got even a temporary ban is that there was no exploit.

D'rin
10-05-2007, 03:46 PM
The raid timer would not have been as much an issue, but now if there is no raid timer, people can run it 20 times in a day and get there raid loot pick not to mention all the loot they got on 20 times. So I can see how this would disrupt game balance. I don't really care that the raid is closed since I was on vacation and am only now getting raid ready.

jjflanigan
10-05-2007, 03:46 PM
*edit*...totally not worth it. the cheaters will always get away with it

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 03:47 PM
We are aware of some issues surrounding the new raid, which may result in an exploitable situation. We have closed the quest so that we may make changes to block the exploits, and hope to have them open again early next week.

We apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your patience.

It's just the raid quest that's closed, right?

Perceval418
10-05-2007, 03:48 PM
Explain to me how it is not a bug?

A bug is an error in the program that causes the program to do things not as attended... that is what was happening.

I think exploits are typically considered things like standing in "safe spots" So you dont get hit when your supposed to be able to be hit, bugging out mobs so they become stationary and confused, or using areas of poor coding in the game to your benefit.

Has anyone ever casted Magic Missle while slightly behind something but with the mob still on your screen? Then youve exploited and, according to many of you, everyone who's done that should be banned.

Or have any of you ever stood in a fireplace to not be hit by mobs in stormcleave? Then youve commited a bannable offense.

Or what about maze of madness before the patch, running it with cloudkill and level 10's? I dont think the devs Intended that to happen, or they would have never changed it. Bannable.

Have you ever had a mob bug out which you then killed anyways? Bannable. Should have reported it, even if it was a kobald.

Im not trying to be rediculus just putting it into perspective, theres a ton of things that could be debated as bannable, and i think turbine is to blame for the slow responce in shutting down the quest. What happened with this quest was in my opinon opportunism, not exploitation.

Just my 2cp

dragnmoon
10-05-2007, 03:49 PM
It's just the raid quest that's closed, right?

Correct Mystic

sigtrent
10-05-2007, 03:49 PM
Here's my take....

Ya, running the raid over and over is technicaly an exploit. It is not an especialy grevious one, especialy if the timer simply isn't functioning. I suppose if you are the worlds most lawful player you might refrain, but the vast majority of players who could run a raid over and over for cool loot would do so. It's not like they were doing something sneaky, they just took the quest and then ran it (so far as I understand). Those trying to defend themsleves have no need to, although the fact that they are doing so anyway, makes me suspicious. No one named names but some folks made them selves consipcuous by their comments.

As to turbine closing it.. COPE! It was broken so they took steps to stop the bleeding for a bit. Had to happen sooner or later. It will be back there will be many opportunities to do the raid. They didn't test it out well enough apparently but we all know that happens, tis the nature of MMOs. They are always under pressure to get stuff out ASAP.

I am under the impression the timer is not the only "exploit" here. The way the raid was being performed was apparently not at all what was intended as the primary challenge of it. Again, folks can't totaly be faulted for finding a way around things, but there is nothing wrong with the DM making some asjustments so the quest is the kind of challenge it was intended to be.

Randz_Stormbringer
10-05-2007, 03:49 PM
;) I dont see any of the elite'ist expressing gratitude towards Turbine, ...

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 03:51 PM
Awesome cut/paste skillz but we all know where to find this and have already read it... ;)


The bug was an exploit. You dont know how ignorant anybody makes themselves sound by stating "Well I didnt know it was an exploit therefore it was not.."
Well I can apply that in other places.
"I didn't know murder was against the law therefore it isn't.."
Dumb statement huh?
Comon, nobody in DDO is that dense to assume that being able to repeat a Raid multiple times was intended to operate that way. And then to make it worse people got warnings and kept RIGHT ON DOING IT believing that it still was not an exploit. UNbelievable.

Repeating a raid quest like the abbott is disrupting game play.
WHY? because those players who did it probably got every black abbot named raid loot that was available.
So expect that you will see a minority of players walking around decked out in uber loot thanks to this little problem.
IMO. I say remove all of the black named loot from every players inventory and start over at 0. Those who exploited ban them. Thats all I got to say about that.

You know I used to play a game called Battlefield 2142. You know why I do not anymore, because of the overadbundance of cheaters and exploiters in that game. And the unwillingness of the development company DICE to fix it. It just kept reminding me of the degredation of society that there are people who just do not want to play fairly and will cheat whenever possible. So I stopped playing.
Not accusing people in DDO as cheaters but you have to raise an eyebrow at people who defend or continued to defend this exploit. Specially with a naive statement like "We didn't know it was an exploit..."

Players, especially the more expeirenced ones should have known better.

Hydro
10-05-2007, 03:52 PM
Did you ever stop to think that the people running the raids were there for the fun and insane challenge and not just the loot. That raid is truly the only challenge left for me and most of my guildies and I would run it again not for loot but the satisfaction of beating it.

loki523
10-05-2007, 03:53 PM
...then I could buy the whole "I'm innocent, I didn't know, curse you turbine!"

Buy whatever you want. Nobody cares about selling you anything.





seriously, don't try to come off like you weren't in the wrong and act all high-and-mighty being upset with Turbine.

Actually we can certainly "come off" this way and we don't even need to try. That's because we weren't in the wrong. That's a fact. And for those of you who are refusing to read what's been posted, nobody (from Legion at least, or that I know of) is upset with Turbine for fixing the raid timer. Pana and I are pretty upset that they chose to shut down the raid on a weekend to do it. Should have been done this week...


If they could have trusted players, like you, to not abuse the problem, they wouldn't have had to take it offline.

First, they would have had to take it offline to fix it period. Second, we reported the bug and spoke to Turbine about it before we took any action which could be considered exploiting.

So far I'm definately seeing a bunch of jealous people here who can't even beat the raid posting about something that isn't any of their business and crying about someone else doing something that impacted them in no way, all the while being totally and completely ignorant of the facts concerning the matter, which is understandable because, again, it's none of their business. Pretty weak...

pana
10-05-2007, 03:54 PM
again we have filed reports on this raid starting on monday both on the timer and on the content of the raid. We where told by devs that it could be done without completing the puzzles. Which is a great thing because honestly puzzles in every raid get annoying. I am not defending myself here i am simply stating. Turbine you had all week to work on it bring it down what ever. You choose to do it on the weekend. YOUR highest playing times. Why. Thats my point and problem with the whole thing. If anything we did with the raid was considered a exploit then it is turbines resonsibility to notify us as such. That is what the forums are for. We as legion did nothing wrong what so ever in this whole raid content period. We have been watched on how we do the raid, our play style, and such by both other guilds and by the eye in the sky. So there is nothing to prove to any of you guys,

have a nice day!

Twerpp
10-05-2007, 03:56 PM
Wow so people should be banned for not reading quest NPC text....

The reason no one got even a temporary ban is that there was no exploit.

LOL I agree dude who reads the story anyway, I'm just here to kill monsters and take their stuff! I would have have a 3 INT anyway if I could and I couldn't even communicate with NPC's.

Hydro
10-05-2007, 03:56 PM
The bug was an exploit. You dont know how ignorant anybody makes themselves sound by stating "Well I didnt know it was an exploit therefore it was not.."
Well I can apply that in other places.
"I didn't know murder was against the law therefore it isn't.."
Dumb statement huh?
Comon, nobody in DDO is that dense to assume that being able to repeat a Raid multiple times was intended to operate that way. And then to make it worse people got warnings and kept RIGHT ON DOING IT believing that it still was not an exploit. UNbelievable.

Repeating a raid quest like the abbott is disrupting game play.
WHY? because those players who did it probably got every black abbot named raid loot that was available.
So expect that you will see a minority of players walking around decked out in uber loot thanks to this little problem.
IMO. I say remove all of the black named loot from every players inventory and start over at 0. Those who exploited ban them. Thats all I got to say about that.

You know I used to play a game called Battlefield 2142. You know why I do not anymore, because of the overadbundance of cheaters and exploiters in that game. And the unwillingness of the development company DICE to fix it. It just kept reminding me of the degredation of society that there are people who just do not want to play fairly and will cheat whenever possible. So I stopped playing.
Not accusing people in DDO as cheaters but you have to raise an eyebrow at people who defend or continued to defend this exploit. Specially with a naive statement like "We didn't know it was an exploit..."

Players, especially the more expeirenced ones should have known better.


Have you ever repeated a mission in DDO?

Have you ever not read a NPC dialog?

Has DDO ever suprised you with a quest not acting the way you expected?

Oh and if you really think some raid loot from the new raid is really going to unbalance this game, you are sadly mistaken. There's really only once piece of raid loot that imbalances the game and that's the Sword of Shadows. Of all the raid loot I saw most of it was good but hardly game breaking.

Riddikulus
10-05-2007, 03:57 PM
Again, it is impossible to know if an NPC giving you a quest is a game error, miscue, or bug or whether repeating the quest gives players an advantage that is unintended without an official say-so from Turbine. It is NOT the players' job or responsibility to make these assumptions.
And that's why it's closed.

Repeatedly deleting the threads wasn't enough to keep a lid on it... it was just too obvious.

People were still doing it so Turbine had no choice except to start enforcement action by threatening/banning people or closing it.

I think they made the right choice.

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 03:58 PM
cant fight city hall!

Some game should make a quest where an evil building-o-mancer takes over city hall causing it to come to life and start terrorizing the city.

Then you'd have to fight City Hall.

Qzipoun
10-05-2007, 04:00 PM
You dont know how ignorant anybody makes themselves sound by stating "Well I didnt know it was an exploit therefore it was not.."

QFT.

Hydro
10-05-2007, 04:00 PM
I can't speak for everyone else but I know that If Turbine would of said that the timer on the raid was broken and to please not repeat it more than once every three days I would of only ran it once.

They never told us, that's the problem.

loki523
10-05-2007, 04:02 PM
but the vast majority of players who could run a raid over and over for cool loot would do so

Especially if they ASKED first and were given permission LOL.

As far as the loot goes, NOBODY in the game has run the raid more than 10 times, probably half of that resulted in zero loot, one piece, or duplicates of junk pieces. I imagine that only half of the raid loot has been seen thusfar. But again, here's a case of people flipping out over stuff they can't understand because they have NO idea what the facts are...

I also find it hilarious to see the same people on one thread complaining about the new raid loot system because it barely drops any loot (true) and then coming here pointing fingers and claiming things like people "probably have every piece of raid loot in the game" from doing less than a dozen runs. Too funny.

For the record, I haven't seen any Tomes drop in the Abbot either. It's supposed to be the hardest raid so you would think some would drop. Maybe the tome drop in there is broken too and they should fix that then go back and give us some tomes. ;)

Kerr
10-05-2007, 04:02 PM
I want to know just one thing. If the 'exploit' was to be able to repeat it immediately, then how did Turbine let that into production? Is your QA that poor? That's something that should have taken your QA folks exactly 2 seconds to check. It's the Whisperdoom banner situation all over again. A little competent QA would have discovered this.

Brush up on your QA Turbine.

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 04:03 PM
Buy whatever you want. Nobody cares about selling you anything.






Actually we can certainly "come off" this way and we don't even need to try. That's because we weren't in the wrong. That's a fact. And for those of you who are refusing to read what's been posted, nobody (from Legion at least, or that I know of) is upset with Turbine for fixing the raid timer. Pana and I are pretty upset that they chose to shut down the raid on a weekend to do it. Should have been done this week...



First, they would have had to take it offline to fix it period. Second, we reported the bug and spoke to Turbine about it before we took any action which could be considered exploiting.

So far I'm definately seeing a bunch of jealous people here who can't even beat the raid posting about something that isn't any of their business and crying about someone else doing something that impacted them in no way, all the while being totally and completely ignorant of the facts concerning the matter, which is understandable because, again, it's none of their business. Pretty weak...

Loki feel very lucky you dont play in other games.
Turbine is being VERY lenient with this situation.
If you played another game your inventory would have been reset, all your characters erased and you would have been set back to first level.

So they are being very lenient. Just thought you should know that.

jjflanigan
10-05-2007, 04:04 PM
So far I'm definately seeing a bunch of jealous people here who can't even beat the raid posting about something that isn't any of their business and crying about someone else doing something that impacted them in no way, all the while being totally and completely ignorant of the facts concerning the matter, which is understandable because, again, it's none of their business. Pretty weak...

Jealous because you found a way to abuse an error in the game to let your characters profit from it? Not likely. I've not even complete my sigil yet, I'm in no rush. I was proud to be on the server of the first guild to beat the raid.

Qzipoun
10-05-2007, 04:05 PM
Hmmm.... remember when mod 4 came out and the reaver could NOT be repeated?

Ironic isn't it :D.

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 04:06 PM
Have you ever repeated a mission in DDO?

Have you ever not read a NPC dialog?

Has DDO ever suprised you with a quest not acting the way you expected?

Oh and if you really think some raid loot from the new raid is really going to unbalance this game, you are sadly mistaken. There's really only once piece of raid loot that imbalances the game and that's the Sword of Shadows. Of all the raid loot I saw most of it was good but hardly game breaking.

Yu are joking me right?
Thats like saying have you ever looked at an open door to someones house before?
Yes I have but I never went in and stole everything from their house. I just kept on walking.

Did you just NOT understand that after you got the warning, maybe this was an exploit. Did you not understand that a raid timer that doesn't reset for 3 days may be an exploit?

Yu also just admitted you were one of the ones. Sheesh. This is not worth the energy to type anymore I will let your loss reality in your words do the talking.

loki523
10-05-2007, 04:06 PM
We have been watched on how we do the raid, our play style, and such by both other guilds and by the eye in the sky. So there is nothing to prove to any of you guys

QFT

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 04:07 PM
Again, it is impossible to know if an NPC giving you a quest is a game error, miscue, or bug or whether repeating the quest gives players an advantage that is unintended without an official say-so from Turbine. It is NOT the players' job or responsibility to make these assumptions.

Show in the following sentence where it discusses the fact that you have to know it's a bug for it to count against you:


18. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world.

I mean it could say "You will not knowingly exploit, distribute or publicly communicate..." but it doesn't.

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 04:09 PM
I can't speak for everyone else but I know that If Turbine would of said that the timer on the raid was broken and to please not repeat it more than once every three days I would of only ran it once.

They never told us, that's the problem.

Not going to respond to this.

Kerr
10-05-2007, 04:10 PM
Hmmm.... remember when mod 4 came out and the reaver could NOT be repeated?

Ironic isn't it :D.

Which goes to show exactly one thing.

Their QA group is incompetent, because the last raid the released they didn't test the raid timer on and they didn't learn from it. So they've repeated their mistake, and are having us pay for a game that's flawed and they've demonstrated no capacity to test properly.

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 04:10 PM
Especially if they ASKED first and were given permission LOL.

As far as the loot goes, NOBODY in the game has run the raid more than 10 times, probably half of that resulted in zero loot, one piece, or duplicates of junk pieces. I imagine that only half of the raid loot has been seen thusfar. But again, here's a case of people flipping out over stuff they can't understand because they have NO idea what the facts are...

I also find it hilarious to see the same people on one thread complaining about the new raid loot system because it barely drops any loot (true) and then coming here pointing fingers and claiming things like people "probably have every piece of raid loot in the game" from doing less than a dozen runs. Too funny.

For the record, I haven't seen any Tomes drop in the Abbot either. It's supposed to be the hardest raid so you would think some would drop. Maybe the tome drop in there is broken too and they should fix that then go back and give us some tomes. ;)

No named loot for you from the abbott? Good.

loki523
10-05-2007, 04:12 PM
Done with this thread. It's definately getting closed. I really don't feel like getting any infraction points and some people here deserve comments that will get me some...

Good luck to the vast majority of players posting here who haven't even flagged for the raid much less beaten it.

Hydro
10-05-2007, 04:12 PM
Yu are joking me right?
Thats like saying have you ever looked at an open door to someones house before?
Yes I have but I never went in and stole everything from their house. I just kept on walking.

Did you just NOT understand that after you got the warning, maybe this was an exploit. Did you not understand that a raid timer that doesn't reset for 3 days may be an exploit?

Yu also just admitted you were one of the ones. Sheesh. This is not worth the energy to type anymore I will let your loss reality in your words do the talking.


Who is hiding the fact that they ran the raid multiple times, maybe if you had read the deleted threads you would have seen that anyone who repeated the missions are not ashamed of what they have done. Oh well none the less at least I am happy that most of the forum trolls will never be good enough for that raid (until the nerf it).

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 04:13 PM
Done with this thread. It's definately getting closed. I really don't feel like getting any infraction points and some people here deserve comments that will get me some...

Good luck to the vast majority of players posting here who haven't even flagged for the raid much less beaten it.

Least we agree on something. This thread is done. Im outa here. Enjoy your weekend.

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 04:14 PM
the vast majority of players posting here who haven't even flagged for the raid much less beaten it.

I fail to see the relevance. :rolleyes:

Chelsa
10-05-2007, 04:16 PM
"The Legion doth protest too much, methinks."

--From DDO Hamlet (III, ii, 239):D

Litz
10-05-2007, 04:17 PM
Something I'm not understanding is the attitude from people who think using an error in the code is thier right since someone else messed up. While some feel I am too harsh on the QA people (from other threads), I'm also upset at the people who abuse these errors. I understand the difference between acidentally abusing it, and purposefully abusing it. I feel turbine was right in giving warnings to people. This is letting them know that they could be banned. Its up to them to decide if they are going to break the rules. The "Warning" in this case I don't feel should be an accusation that you have done things wrong as much as its putting you on notice of the problem.. Then the people that feel they are entitled to use the error in thier favor question why people like me want to point out the problem as if its none of our buisness.

Like trafic (going home soon) when you see someone speeding down the highway at say 100MPH. Its his car, he didn't hit you, your not the one going to get the ticket why should you care and call the police on him? Well a mile down the road he flips the car causes a truck to jackknife and you end up spending a hour and a half on a trip that should take 20min you will ask yourself why didn't I call in.

Exploiting the game effects everyone either directly or indirectly.. Be real and play the game fairly and you'll have fun (most the time). There isn't a need to do it.. As much as people want to hear more from me sorry.. Going home.. see you in game :D

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 04:19 PM
Oh well none the less at least I am happy that most the player base will never be good enough for that raid (until the nerf it).

BUWAHAHAHAHAAH!!!! You have not, any idea of my or anyone elses playing ability.
Im glad your not ashamed of exploiting and convinced of the inability of other players. I needed a good laugh.

Those who were not ashamed should be banned but that is not for me to decide. You know exactly what your were doing and it is your own consious you will have to deal with. As for me I sleep very good at night. Thank you.

I am not one to tell anyone how to play but the ignoring of the rules as can be read in the EULA is pretty blatant. And I will leave it at that. I dont need infraction points and this thread is definately not worth getting them. Time to go my friends, i leave on a happy note. Debate is very good for the soul.

pana
10-05-2007, 04:19 PM
wow litz can you tell the kettle that the pot is also made of cast iron.

Litz
10-05-2007, 04:22 PM
wow litz can you tell the kettle that the pot is also made of cast iron.

No he wont listen..

Quarion
10-05-2007, 04:31 PM
We certainly realize that closing this quest and even the existence of the bug was a disappointment to many of you.

Rest assured we're working on fixing it, and we appreciate your patience.

Mystic, yes, there is only one quest closed.

While the quest timer is indeed broken, and we'd prefer not to allow users to repeat the raid over and over, we do not consider that issue alone, a punishable offense. There were other issues that players could use to gain unfair advantage, which were very clearly an exploit, and anyone utilizing would know that it is not allowed, nor meant to be done, and that doing so would be violating the Terms of Service.

I hope this clears up any questions there might be.

Let me remind everyone that discussing details of an exploit, even those no longer available are against the forum guidelines, so lets keep details to yourselves so you can continue posting here :)

-Thanks!
Quarion

Gambit
10-05-2007, 04:38 PM
We certainly realize that closing this quest and even the existence of the bug was a disappointment to many of you.

Rest assured we're working on fixing it, and we appreciate your patience.

Mystic, yes, there is only one quest closed.

While the quest timer is indeed broken, and we'd prefer not to allow users to repeat the raid over and over, we do not consider that issue alone, a punishable offense. There were other issues that players could use to gain unfair advantage, which were very clearly an exploit, and anyone utilizing would know that it is not allowed, nor meant to be done, and that doing so would be violating the Terms of Service.

I hope this clears up any questions there might be.

Let me remind everyone that discussing details of an exploit, even those no longer available are against the forum guidelines, so lets keep details to yourselves so you can continue posting here :)

-Thanks!
Quarion

So what you are saying is that if something is broken that would allow you to repeat a quest that should not be repeated over and over again, *that* repeating said quest over and over again is not a punishable offense!!! Thanks for clearing that up!

Hydro
10-05-2007, 04:40 PM
While the quest timer is indeed broken, and we'd prefer not to allow users to repeat the raid over and over, we do not consider that issue alone, a punishable offense.
-Thanks!
Quarion

No one in the raids we did exploited anything inside the mission. Do you think it would be possible that the people that were doing the raids that recieved threatening letters could possibly get there name removed from the "Exploiter" list. Or possibly even an apology?

loki523
10-05-2007, 04:45 PM
While the quest timer is indeed broken, and we'd prefer not to allow users to repeat the raid over and over, we do not consider that issue alone, a punishable offense.

Thanks for clearing this up Quarion.

Just...can't...resist...any...longer....

PWND! :p

Quarion
10-05-2007, 04:45 PM
Nope, not saying that at all.

I'm saying that in that was the situation in THIS case, with the raid timer being non-existent, and ONLY the non-existent raid timer.

-Quarion


So what you are saying is that if something is broken that would allow you to repeat a quest that should not be repeated over and over again, *that* repeating said quest over and over again is not a punishable offense!!! Thanks for clearing that up!

ccheath776
10-05-2007, 04:49 PM
Nope, not saying that at all.

I'm saying that in that was the situation in THIS case, with the raid timer being non-existent, and ONLY the non-existent raid timer.

-Quarion

In other words. The raid timer was was the bug. repeating it over and over again was not exploitation.

repeating it over and over again when the raid timer is broken... is anyones guess. but people were given warnings and I saw the e-mails. So it was well known WHAt the exploit was. Whatever that was which will be forever known as the exploit that shall not be named or those we do not speak of.

This raid is forbidden, we do not show this raid or speak of those who must not be spoken of.

People did it, lots of people did so and those who did know who they are. My complete amusement is those who did so, advertised they did so, were not ashamed of it and are now defending it.
cheating is cheating. So dont get too amused despite what quarion says loki.

Riddikulus
10-05-2007, 04:53 PM
I can't speak for everyone else but I know that If Turbine would of said that the timer on the raid was broken and to please not repeat it more than once every three days I would of only ran it once.

They never told us, that's the problem.
They never talk about exploits... it's an open invitation to cheat. This one may be easy to track down if they wanted to spend the GM time to enforce it but there are lots of others that are probably not so easy so they just adopt the fight club mentality on all of them.

I've done a grand total of 25 raids or so (across all characters and all raids) and I know what the timer is supposed to be. For anyone who raids even more frequently to say "I didn't know it was wrong" is being disingenuous.

Impaqt
10-05-2007, 04:55 PM
Read between the lines folks.... There is/Was an additional exploit besides the timer issue that caused the closure.

I really dont understand why poeple who did nothing wrong feel the need to adamantly defend themselvse though....

I for one am glad its clsed for the weekend.. I admit the raids been kickin my butt and could use some time off.

Gratch
10-05-2007, 04:57 PM
There was a group once that exploited around a raid timer... but they were exploiting to get around it... they did get perm entire account banned.

dragnmoon
10-05-2007, 04:58 PM
We certainly realize that closing this quest and even the existence of the bug was a disappointment to many of you.

Rest assured we're working on fixing it, and we appreciate your patience.

Mystic, yes, there is only one quest closed.

While the quest timer is indeed broken, and we'd prefer not to allow users to repeat the raid over and over, we do not consider that issue alone, a punishable offense. There were other issues that players could use to gain unfair advantage, which were very clearly an exploit, and anyone utilizing would know that it is not allowed, nor meant to be done, and that doing so would be violating the Terms of Service.

I hope this clears up any questions there might be.

Let me remind everyone that discussing details of an exploit, even those no longer available are against the forum guidelines, so lets keep details to yourselves so you can continue posting here :)

-Thanks!
Quarion

Thank you for clearing that up Quarion.

Though I may not agree with turbines policy on this, I have no choice but to.

darkrune
10-05-2007, 05:02 PM
Just...can't...resist...any...longer....

PWND! :p

Isnt this the kind of attitude that there was a post closed about the other day that "everyone is picking on Legion cause we the best"?? The only thing that I am seeing in this post is that Legion is the best at trying to insight other people to attack them and plead "we are the ones who are being wronged" and exploiting the HECK out of bugs that are in the game case and point :


and yes i raided it i have 9 completions. I feel as if i did nothing wrong either. As i stated it is not my responsiblity to know there is a timer or not. That is the programmers. furthermore i dont care if they added a timer and let the raid stand. I care they had a whole week to fix it and they close shop for the weekend, POOR Peformance turbine indeed.

So correct me if my opinion is wrong but as a person that clearly states that they have been playing since beta blah blah blah you KNOW well that there are always timers associated with Mod raids and that somehow even IF you even bug reported it (which I seriously doubt you did) that you continued to run it and no doubt let as many people that you could know how to do it as well. And now that the Developers have caught on and closed the quest you all are screaming bloody murder saying woe is me the righteous one who bugged reported it yet ran it 9 times and i did nothing wrong... come on grow up... noone cares if you are the first or last only if you cheated to get there... IMO Legion is the Barry Bonds of DDO all your stats are so jacked on roids (exploits) that everything you say should have an *

Just my 2 cp though take it or leave it.

Darkrune

Waiting for AOC or whatever the heck game is coming along to take the whiners of legion away from this one so the rest of us can still enjoy the game without them...

Jaywade
10-05-2007, 05:11 PM
My wish because of this.
Ban the people that exploited.
Then take away all of the hundreds of pieces of raid loot the people attained because of it.
Yu want to screw up the system destroy balance and exploit a quest. Go play solitaire or something like it. DDO is no exploiters zone.

I'm a johnie come lately to this but Sir you are so wrong it is insane..... people you reported were told don;t worry about it, if turbine didn;t have a problem w/ it why should you....I believe they still had to complete a sigil so it's not like they could just rinse and repeat....no one pulled hundreds of pieces of loot... pana said 9 completions what do you wana bet that less then 15 pieces total drop for those 9 completions...no balance was screw up even if they did get 50 pieces of loot how in the world does that change your game play...... folks grow up...of course if you are not adults I understand

Quarion
10-05-2007, 05:15 PM
Since we can't keep this a friendly discussion, I'm closing it.