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Kisaragi
10-05-2007, 11:21 AM
I've noticed something a bit strange when it comes to spellcaster enhancements. There are enhancements to improve fire/cold, force/repair, acid/electric but not the actual schools. Some of the enhancements we have increase the effectiveness of the spells, and some increase the chance to crit with those spells.

What I would like to see is the following;

Lineage of Bone (Necromancy) - Increases the DC of your necromancy spells by +1.
Lineage of Bone 2 (Necromancy) - Increases the DC of your necromancy spells by +2.
Lineage of Bone 3 (Necromancy) - Increases the DC of your necromancy spells by +3.
Lineage of Bone 4 (Necromancy) - Increases the DC of your necromancy spells by +4.

Lineage of Lies (Illusion) - Increases the DC of your Illusion spells by +1.
Lineage of Lies 2 (Illusion) - Increases the DC of your Illusion spells by +2.
Lineage of Lies 3 (Illusion) - Increases the DC of your Illusion spells by +3.
Lineage of Lies 4 (Illusion) - Increases the DC of your Illusion spells by +4.

Lineage of Maker (Conjuration) - Increases the DC of your Conjuration spells by +1.
Lineage of Maker 2 (Conjuration) - Increases the DC of your Conjuration spells by +2.
Lineage of Maker 3 (Conjuration) - Increases the DC of your Conjuration spells by +3.
Lineage of Maker 4 (Conjuration) - Increases the DC of your Conjuration spells by +4.

Lineage of Banshee (Enchantment) - Increases the DC of your Enchantment spells by +1.
Lineage of Banshee 2 (Enchantment) - Increases the DC of your Enchantment spells by +2.
Lineage of Banshee 3 (Enchantment) - Increases the DC of your Enchantment spells by +3.
Lineage of Banshee 4 (Enchantment) - Increases the DC of your Enchantment spells by +4.

Lineage of Alchemy (Transmutation) - Increases the DC of your Transmutation spells by +1.
Lineage of Alchemy 2 (Transmutation) - Increases the DC of your Transmutation spells by +2.
Lineage of Alchemy 3 (Transmutation) - Increases the DC of your Transmutation spells by +3.
Lineage of Alchemy 4 (Transmutation) - Increases the DC of your Transmutation spells by +4.


Ghoul Companion
You have a loyal Ghoul as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2
Prerequisites: Lineage of Bone II OR Lineage of Lies II


Wight Companion
You have a loyal Wight as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 10 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Bone III OR Lineage of Lies III OR Ghoul Companion


Vampire Companion
You have a loyal Vampire as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 26 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Bone IV OR Lineage of Lies IV or Wight Companion



Ooze Companion
You have a loyal Ooze as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2
Prerequisites: Lineage of Alchemy II OR Lineage of Maker II


Jelly Companion
You have a loyal Jelly as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 10 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Alchemy III OR Lineage of Maker III OR Jelly Companion


Pudding Companion
You have a loyal Pudding as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 26 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Alchemy IV OR Lineage of Maker IV or Jelly Companion



Shadow
You have a loyal Shadow as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2
Prerequisites: Lineage of Banshee II OR Lineage of Lies II


Shadow Worg Companion
You have a loyal Specter as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 10 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Banshee III OR Lineage of Lies III OR Shadow Companion


Shadow Gargoyle Companion
You have a loyal Shadow Gargoyle as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 26 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Banshee IV OR Lineage of Lies IV or Shadow Worg Companion



Wolf Companion
You have a loyal Wolf as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2
Prerequisites: Lineage of Maker II OR Lineage of Lies II


Lioness Companion
You have a loyal Lioness as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 10 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Maker III OR Lineage of Lies III OR Celestial Companion


Jarilith
You have a loyal Jarilith as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 26 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Maker IV OR Lineage of Lies IV or Lionness Companion


Granted these might have to be tweaked a bit, but it'd allow casters to have pets (that didn't use manna to summon, the path towards familiars) and have spellcasters that focus on Transmutation, Necromancy, Illusion, Enchantment or Conjuration. My wizard wants to be a necromancer, but all I can focus his enhancements on are damage.

Dariuss
10-05-2007, 11:45 AM
me likey

although to be fair i'm lvl 11 and can get 80% of my hold monsters to stick on GH Elite quests, so ... maybe we don't need a +4 bump... maybe a +1 bonus for 3 APs and a +2 for 6 APs? So it's something you have to really pay for.

But i'm all for variety.

Add as many different kinds of enhancements as possible. And don't limit them by class.. let anyone choose any enhancement.

llevenbaxx
10-05-2007, 11:52 AM
That sounds pretty cool. A little something for every type of caster too. Plus the "pet" could be a very nice tool to help control aggro, if only for a bit. Two thumbs up.:p

Maatogaeoth
10-05-2007, 12:12 PM
I like the idea behind these. Focusing only on increasing maximum damage output with enhancements seems very limiting in character build concepts.

I'd definitely like to become a "necromancer" or a "enchanter" instead of a Fire/Ice/Acid/etc mage.

As for the power of the enhancements, they might be a bit high, but that's what playtesting/Risia is for...

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 12:20 PM
While I'm all about being powerful, adding another +4 to my necromancer's DC's might be a bit imbalancing. 36 DC? Please.....37 with the new staff from the raid.

Coldin
10-05-2007, 12:22 PM
I really like the idea of increasing the DC of a school of magic. 4 levels with +1 to each is a little much, so it should probably be a two tier system at 2 APs each.

I really hope they implement some more companion lines to the enhancement system. I like the starting point for rogues, and I see no reason why they can't bring those over for spell casters or rangers.

Dariun
10-05-2007, 12:28 PM
This would be a tough choice... Take the vampire and solo every level 8 or lower quest in the game or have my very own ooze.

I guess I'd go with the ooze for style points.




Vampire Companion
You have a loyal Vampire as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2 (must have spent 26 action points)
Prerequisites: Lineage of Bone IV OR Lineage of Lies IV or Wight Companion



Ooze Companion
You have a loyal Ooze as a pet, and can summon it once per rest to aid you for five minutes.
Action Points: 2
Prerequisites: Lineage of Alchemy II OR Lineage of Maker II

jkm
10-05-2007, 01:30 PM
in order to balance them out, you would need to impose more restrictions.
i.e.
necro 1 prereq would be SF:necro 4 APs
necro 2 prereq would be SF:necro and GSF:necro 8APs

if you want to go to 4, you would need to add a "no spells of school x" restriction :p

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 01:37 PM
That's a really big bonus to Save DCs.

I'd limit these to no more than three-tier (maybe less), two-point-per enhancements.

Alternatively, drop the save DC enhancements and add the others with Spell Focus and/or Greater Spell Focus as prereqs.

Griphon
10-06-2007, 10:19 AM
Yes!

Please consider this! Or at the very least consider the enhancement to schools!
Especially nice if you can arrange them at similiar levels as Damage Enhancements. Or close to them...

My Wiz was built for Crowd Control, and I've had to take Damage Enhancements simply because there was nothing else I wanted to fill in the point requirements to the next enhancement I wanted.

Downside:
A crowd control Wiz/Sorc is one of the worst factors in making a quest 'too easy'. This could be the reason they didn't install this type of Enhancement already.

nibel
10-06-2007, 10:37 AM
Yes! Do it!

With this implemented, i do not need to waste a Feat on this Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. Wasting AP (60 endgame) is cheaper than a Feat (5 endgame, maybe more because of race/class).

Mad_Bombardier
10-06-2007, 10:51 AM
My problem with this system is that you already have multiple sources of increasing your spell DC:

Casting stat enhancement + casting stat item
Spell Focus feat
Spell Focus item
Metamagic feat (Heighten)
Spellsinger song (from Bard)

And, frankly, adding more enhancements that obsolete feats makes no sense to me. IMHO, enhancements should work with feats; boosting different things and complementing each other. My Wiz does not have max stat (no +2 tome yet) and no Heighten and still rarely fails to enchant a mob.

Strakeln
10-06-2007, 11:17 AM
While I'm all about being powerful, adding another +4 to my necromancer's DC's might be a bit imbalancing. 36 DC? Please.....37 with the new staff from the raid.I have to agree here. Currently, to increase your DC of a specific school by one point, you have to burn a feat. Giving the same benefit for (comparatively cheap) action points is very imbalancing.

Oran_Lathor
10-06-2007, 01:53 PM
Hrmm tough call here. WHile I'm all for more variety in enhancements, and for more power (!) I think +4 dc may be over the top (It would be like having +8 to your casting stat). Still, putting them in and making them fairly expensive might allow for more varied builds to gain more viability. Maybe with these around you wouldn't see every wizard/sorc starting with 18 or 20 in their primary. WHo knows?

salmag
10-06-2007, 05:08 PM
I like the enhancment to spell schools, but not the companion idea. Just give wizards their familiars, (like they should have) and give them the familiar attributes (like they should get).

I do like the class enhancement idea. This would allow us to make true Necromancers, Evokers, Abjurers, Conjurors, etc... GREAT IDEA. In order to balance it, require the Spell Focus Feats, and make them either/or as far as elemental or school enhancement. DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO STACK.

So, an evoker can not choose evocation enhancements and fire/cold enhancements and have them combine for tremendous gains.

Then, they should add divine schools (plant, animal, etc...) and do the same thing.

MysticTheurge
10-06-2007, 05:21 PM
I actually suggested once making School-based enhancement lines out of the alternate specialist rules from Unearthed Arcana (also available in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm)).

Basically you'd be looking at something like this:

Abjurer Apprentice: Once per rest you can grant resistance to a single energy type equal to 5 + half your wizard level to yourself or an ally.
Abjurer: Once per rest (plus once more per five levels of wizard) you can grant yourself a deflection bonus to AC and a Resistance bonus to saves equal to your intelligence modifier. This bonus lasts for one minute.
Abjurer Master: You are considered to always have Dispel Magic memorized (like a cleric's Cure spells). If you have 11 or more wizard levels you are also considered to always have Greater Dispel Magic memorized.

Conjurer Apprentice: Whenever you cast a Summon Monster spell it is cast as though affected by the Quicken Spell feat.
Conjurer: Monsters you summon via the Summon Monster spell gain +2 to strength and dexterity. This bonus increases by +2 at 10th and 20th.
Conjurer Master: You are considered to always have the Summon Monster spells memorized (like a Cleric's cure spells).

And so on.

salmag
10-06-2007, 05:31 PM
I actually suggested once making School-based enhancement lines out of the alternate specialist rules from Unearthed Arcana (also available in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm)).

Basically you'd be looking at something like this:

Abjurer Apprentice: Once per rest you can grant resistance to a single energy type equal to 5 + half your wizard level to yourself or an ally.
Abjurer: Once per rest (plus once more per five levels of wizard) you can grant yourself a deflection bonus to AC and a Resistance bonus to saves equal to your intelligence modifier. This bonus lasts for one minute.
Abjurer Master: You are considered to always have Dispel Magic memorized (like a cleric's Cure spells). If you have 11 or more wizard levels you are also considered to always have Greater Dispel Magic memorized.

Conjurer Apprentice: Whenever you cast a Summon Monster spell it is cast as though affected by the Quicken Spell feat.
Conjurer: Monsters you summon via the Summon Monster spell gain +2 to strength and dexterity. This bonus increases by +2 at 10th and 20th.
Conjurer Master: You are considered to always have the Summon Monster spells memorized (like a Cleric's cure spells).

And so on.


I like this idea as well...

Borror0
10-06-2007, 05:33 PM
I actually suggested once making School-based enhancement lines out of the alternate specialist rules from Unearthed Arcana (also available in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm)).

Basically you'd be looking at something like this:

Do you ever post something that's not good?

MysticTheurge
10-06-2007, 07:00 PM
Do you ever post something that's not good?

That probably depends on who you ask. ;)

Osharan_Tregarth
10-06-2007, 07:14 PM
Do you ever post something that's not good?

Heh.. Well, I've seen him post a grip of stuff that I didn't agree with, or didn't want implemented...

But it was still good. Just good for other people.... :D

redoubt
10-06-2007, 09:31 PM
Its a nice idea, definately.

Might need some balancing. Several ideas for that are already posted. My favorite so far is requiring the feat and making it an enhancement to the feat.

MysticTheurge
10-06-2007, 09:36 PM
Its a nice idea, definately.

Might need some balancing. Several ideas for that are already posted. My favorite so far is requiring the feat and making it an enhancement to the feat.

While that does solve the "it basically replaces the feat" problem, it doesn't address the "gap between the haves and the have nots" problem.

Basically, if everyone's DCs were 4 points higher in a given school, then saves would have to all be adjusted (or would simply start creeping higher and higher in the future). This would basically mean you'd have a significantly harder time getting spells to land if you didn't have the enhancements.

Which means you're going to end up only being able to use spells from your chose school. And I'd rather people be able to retain some of their versatility.

Dwolf
10-07-2007, 10:56 AM
Make it so you can only enhance one school of magic.

Then to balance it out, declare an opposition school and increase the number of spell points required to cast spells from the opposition school.

In PnP specialist wizards are outright banned from casting from the opposition school(s). In DDO that might not work so well. You want enhancements that will work for sorcerors as well as wizards and suddenly limiting sorcerors even further in terms of what spells they can carry would - well - apply a vaccuum like force to things.

Increasing the sp cost though might work.

Or outright make it impossible for wiz's to cast opposition school spells - allow sorcerors to cast them with increased spell costs and cool downs.

Would this be a fair trade off for enhancements that increase spell DC's for an entire school?

Kisaragi
10-07-2007, 08:17 PM
If that were the case I'd like to see more spells of every school introduced. So if someone focuses on necromancy they can fill all their spell slots with necromancy spells.

That's just my preference though.

MrCow
10-07-2007, 11:14 PM
In PnP specialist wizards are outright banned from casting from the opposition school(s). In DDO that might not work so well. You want enhancements that will work for sorcerors as well as wizards and suddenly limiting sorcerors even further in terms of what spells they can carry would - well - apply a vaccuum like force to things.

Increasing the sp cost though might work.

One of the thoughts I had for specialty wizards yesterday would be using an enhancement that reduced the SP cost for your specialty by 25% and increased the SP cost of the banned schools by 100%.

Its nice to know people out there do have some of the same thoughts I do. :D

Raithe
10-07-2007, 11:40 PM
I'm not particularly fond of enhancements which stack against environmental (mob/trap) values. While the suggestion presented would "specialize" mages for a particular school, it would more broadly work as a nerf bat across the board because those enhancements would get added into the equation when designing dungeons. You can take rogue search and spot DCs as an example (though, strangely, the enhancements got lowered the same time the environment went up...)

I've already noticed some pretty steep curves with mob saves in the new mod. I have no idea why an undead beholder (or undead anything) can make a DC 28 disentigrate fort save a vast majority of the time, even on normal. Are flesh golems really supposed to have awesome reflexes? Something just doesn't seem right...