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Jomee
10-05-2007, 10:53 AM
Does Death ward no longer stop the stat damage from wraiths? Well at least from the wraiths in the orchard.

Big_Russ
10-05-2007, 10:57 AM
That has happened to me with wraiths also.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 11:13 AM
Wraith Constitution drain != negative energy attack

Deathward is not supposed to block it.

jjflanigan
10-05-2007, 11:19 AM
Wraith Constitution drain != negative energy attack

Deathward is not supposed to block it.

Is there supposed to be anything that DOES block it?

tihocan
10-05-2007, 11:21 AM
I never remember DW blocking wraith's con damage. Although after the release of LotD2 I heard people claiming it would, and to be honest I never bothered to check it to be 100% sure.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 11:25 AM
Is there supposed to be anything that DOES block it?

Uh, not getting hit by a wraith??? :p

jjflanigan
10-05-2007, 11:33 AM
Uh, not getting hit by a wraith??? :p

I'll take that under advisement.

Riggs
10-05-2007, 12:14 PM
Deathward did block the stat damage from wraiths until now.

Maatogaeoth
10-05-2007, 12:21 PM
I'm sure someone has a better memory than I do, but I thought that was what Protection from Evil did (PnP version at least...).

Mercules
10-05-2007, 12:34 PM
Is there supposed to be anything that DOES block it?

Ironically enough using "Block" prevents the damage. Then again we all know that the best Defense is a good Offense no matter what Sun Tzu says. Right you zerging barbarians with paper AC using power attack at level 1?:rolleyes:

Missing_Minds
10-05-2007, 12:37 PM
I decided to look this up as yeah, before mod 5, deathward did protect you from the drain effects.

"Living creatures hit by a wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points."

That is what the SRD says about their touch attack. So.. emm... nope. Nothing can block it other than just not getting hit and making your save. Nuts... I liked it when we had a defense against it. Which... I think we should. Mobs of wraiths like this is not what their ability had in mind with PnP.

Devs, I formally request a spell that will protect against such draining attacks.

SidBadguy
10-05-2007, 12:45 PM
Devs, I formally request a spell that will protect against such draining attacks.

That spell is called RESTORATION!

Snike
10-05-2007, 12:46 PM
WRAITH
Constitution Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points.

DREAD WRAITH
Constitution Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a dread wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 25 Fortitude save or take 1d8 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the dread wraith gains 5 temporary hit points.

I may be wrong but I don't remember see'ing a Fort save for the con drain, in which case death ward would have been a suitable comprimise. But if death ward is no longer working please implement the Fort save.

Edit** from PnP rules.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 12:46 PM
Devs, I formally request a spell that will protect against such draining attacks.

/point up

Wraith rears back for the stat drain attack. Hit block. Wraith attacks and a little shield icon pops up. Let go of block and swing away. Whoever currently has agro follows this method. No need to waste SPs.

Maatogaeoth
10-05-2007, 12:55 PM
Ah, I was just thinking that the DC of the save was generally not that high (for the level you encounter the things) and the Protection from Evil save bonus was enough to almost guarantee that you resisted.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 12:56 PM
We shouldn't have spell immunities to everything.

Snike
10-05-2007, 12:58 PM
And we shouldn't have Mob AI's that spam effects. Air ele?

Missing_Minds
10-05-2007, 01:09 PM
That spell is called RESTORATION!

Prove it, smart guy. Prove to me how a spell that removes damage AFTER it happens takes care of a spell that stops damage from even happening.

Guess what, you can't.



/point up

Wraith rears back for the stat drain attack. Hit block. Wraith attacks and a little shield icon pops up. Let go of block and swing away. Whoever currently has agro follows this method. No need to waste SPs.

/point down

On BOTH points. There is no spell that protects. The mobs that do this exist in far greater quantities that the ability was pertaining too. Shield blocking does NOT stop the damage from happening. How do I know this? I firewall and block on my casters all the time. I'm taking stat damage.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 01:17 PM
/point down

On BOTH points. There is no spell that protects. The mobs that do this exist in far greater quantities that the ability was pertaining too. Shield blocking does NOT stop the damage from happening. How do I know this? I firewall and block on my casters all the time. I'm taking stat damage.

I would test it again. I would tonight but I'm going to a lake cabin this weekend and I won't be able to play. House K Insanity quest. Four Wraiths all taken on singly so there won't be something else causing it. On my Paladin I've always taunted them and then tried to keep agro by hitting them between the one attack. When they do attack I switch to block. I get a shield icon popping up and no stat damage. When I don't get blocked in time I end up with stat damage from time to time. The Sorcerer who decided to Scorching Ray them then runs around yelling "Con Damage" because he didn't block. Somehow when I block I don't take Con damage so I have no clue why you would.

Missing_Minds
10-05-2007, 01:26 PM
I would test it again. I would tonight but I'm going to a lake cabin this weekend and I won't be able to play. House K Insanity quest. Four Wraiths all taken on singly so there won't be something else causing it. On my Paladin I've always taunted them and then tried to keep agro by hitting them between the one attack. When they do attack I switch to block. I get a shield icon popping up and no stat damage. When I don't get blocked in time I end up with stat damage from time to time. The Sorcerer who decided to Scorching Ray them then runs around yelling "Con Damage" because he didn't block. Somehow when I block I don't take Con damage so I have no clue why you would.

PoP, marut room with wraiths.

Now, one thing I'll grant 100%, Mod 5 introduced a lot of bugs that didn't exist (big surprise) perhaps it should be the case that blocking would stop the damage, but for whatever reason it just didn't work. In this case it is going to be hard to reproduce. The only thing I can say is that it did happen to me, believe it or not.

Could it also be an additional aspect of the environment? Another thing to consider.

mocat
10-05-2007, 01:30 PM
Is there supposed to be anything that DOES block it?

Your silver flame amulet should block the first 5 stat draining hits from the wraith. (note I said SHOULD)

Amulet + death ward FTW.
(at least until the amulet is drained! :eek: )

M1A1
10-05-2007, 01:30 PM
I would test it again. I would tonight but I'm going to a lake cabin this weekend and I won't be able to play. House K Insanity quest. Four Wraiths all taken on singly so there won't be something else causing it. On my Paladin I've always taunted them and then tried to keep agro by hitting them between the one attack. When they do attack I switch to block. I get a shield icon popping up and no stat damage. When I don't get blocked in time I end up with stat damage from time to time. The Sorcerer who decided to Scorching Ray them then runs around yelling "Con Damage" because he didn't block. Somehow when I block I don't take Con damage so I have no clue why you would.

..Shield Blocking will prevent a monsters special attack...then mentions something about a scorpions sting+poison...learning the animations...etc...etc

Geonis
10-05-2007, 01:31 PM
If I remember correctly, if the Wraiths don't do damage, you don't get the Con drain.

Which would account for the Paladin blocking and not taking any while the Sorc blocks and does. (DR from blocking is based off BAB and Pally's is higher.)

Also, I think there's a save after they hit you for Con.

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 01:34 PM
Also...

Having a good fort save.

SidBadguy
10-05-2007, 01:35 PM
Prove it, smart guy. Prove to me how a spell that removes damage AFTER it happens takes care of a spell that stops damage from even happening.

Guess what, you can't.


Relax...don't get your undies in a bunch.

Would you like a spell to stop melee damage as well? Or perhaps a spell that just gathers loot from all the chests in the quest and tosses it into your backpack for ya?

There isn't a spell that stops it, not in DDO, and not in PnP. And that's on purpose. They are a midlevel undead that can be used in later quests for this reason alone. They always remain at least a small threat. There are several instances of monsters that fit this type. Golems being one. Blanket immunities make them still a threat well past their CR.

Juni
10-05-2007, 01:41 PM
I would test it again. I would tonight but I'm going to a lake cabin this weekend and I won't be able to play. House K Insanity quest. Four Wraiths all taken on singly so there won't be something else causing it. On my Paladin I've always taunted them and then tried to keep agro by hitting them between the one attack. When they do attack I switch to block. I get a shield icon popping up and no stat damage. When I don't get blocked in time I end up with stat damage from time to time. The Sorcerer who decided to Scorching Ray them then runs around yelling "Con Damage" because he didn't block. Somehow when I block I don't take Con damage so I have no clue why you would.


Look at what you wrote and what I highlighted in red

A pally with saves well above most don't ya think you could just be making the saves. My pally hardly ever takes stat damage from wraiths. I never see the save symbol but compaired to any of my other chars my pally takes next to no damage from wraiths.

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 01:46 PM
Would you like a spell to stop melee damage as well? Or perhaps a spell that just gathers loot from all the chests in the quest and tosses it into your backpack for ya?

I'd also like one that pops up a window telling me that I've won the game.

Ziggy
10-05-2007, 01:46 PM
Would you like a spell to stop melee damage as well?
greater command, flesh to stone, hold person/monster. Need i go on:D :p

SidBadguy
10-05-2007, 01:48 PM
greater command, flesh to stone, hold person/monster. Need i go on:D :p

Ohhh careful Zig...you may be labled a "Smart Guy" for that answer.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 01:49 PM
I'd also like one that pops up a window telling me that I've won the game.

Only I have enough caster levels for that spell, MT.

But seriously, we don't need a spell to make us immune to every attack. Just deal with it.

Aeneas
10-05-2007, 01:51 PM
I'd be more prone to agree with Asp's view if wraith to-hit wasn't so inflated.

GlassCannon
10-05-2007, 01:52 PM
I decided to look this up as yeah, before mod 5, deathward did protect you from the drain effects.

"Living creatures hit by a wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points."

That is what the SRD says about their touch attack. So.. emm... nope. Nothing can block it other than just not getting hit and making your save. Nuts... I liked it when we had a defense against it. Which... I think we should. Mobs of wraiths like this is not what their ability had in mind with PnP.

Devs, I formally request a spell that will protect against such draining attacks.

We get NO save(that I have seen... just sometimes the drain doesnt hit. I've looked in my combat log to see if I had a save to roll and I seem to get the option for a save once every 14 CON damage... why so infrequently?), just the drain... also a Wraith can travel at twice the speed of a Cheetah on crack. That's just too fast.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 01:53 PM
We get NO save, just the drain... also a Wraith can travel at twice the speed of a Cheetah on crack. That's just too fast.

Wrong. There is a save.

GlassCannon
10-05-2007, 01:54 PM
I'd be more prone to agree with Asp's view if wraith to-hit wasn't so inflated.

My baby ranger runs around with a rather high ethereal AC(DEX 36 and a +5 Natural AC bonus from Bark, then I toss Mage Armor on for another +4 vs ghosties and voila, she gets hit EVERY time), and those damn wraiths still eat her alive.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 01:57 PM
Well since I'm not in-game ATM, I can't. But I can later tonight.

But it looks something like this, and I see it OFTEN:
(Combat): You roll to save against wraith constitution drain, you roll 7 (+17). You save!

it also shows up if you have your dice shown on your screen.

GlassCannon
10-05-2007, 01:59 PM
Wrong. There is a save.

I think you overlooked a bug.

Apparently Aspenor gets a lot more saves vs drain than my sorc and ranger do. My sorc has 34 CHA and she gets CON drained every time she runs out to do Ghosts of Perdition.(STR drain is from a different monster... the shadows, and I am not counting that)

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 02:01 PM
I think you overlooked a bug.

Apparently Aspenor gets a lot more saves vs drain than my sorc and ranger do. My sorc has 34 CHA and she gets CON drained every time she runs out to do Ghosts of Perdition.

Uh, what does 34 charisma have to do with CON drain? No offense, but they're not connected at all :confused:

and I didn't overlook a bug, I'm saying there isn't one.

muffinlad
10-05-2007, 02:02 PM
I'd also like one that pops up a window telling me that I've won the game.

I want one that makes the mobs clean my armor and brush my hair, but prevents stat damage while my hair is being brushed.

muffinstylist

SidBadguy
10-05-2007, 02:05 PM
I think you overlooked a bug.

Apparently Aspenor gets a lot more saves vs drain than my sorc and ranger do. My sorc has 34 CHA and she gets CON drained every time she runs out to do Ghosts of Perdition.(STR drain is from a different monster... the shadows, and I am not counting that)


Having a 34 CHA won't help you when it's a fort save.

Which by the way is not a "big" save for most casters.

And which gets worse with each CON drain.

SidBadguy
10-05-2007, 02:08 PM
My baby ranger runs around with a rather high ethereal AC(DEX 36 and a +5 Natural AC bonus from Bark, then I toss Mage Armor on for another +4 vs ghosties and voila, she gets hit EVERY time), and those damn wraiths still eat her alive.

Problem is

"An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it."

Therefore your sweet AC is reduced to like a 29, not that hard to hit by a CR 12+ critter.

This is one of the things that makes me glad I have that +5 Ghost Touch Tower Shield. Because that will work, and I hardly get hit at all.

Now if I could only find some +5 Ghost Touch Full Plate I'd be set.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 02:15 PM
My baby ranger runs around with a rather high ethereal AC(DEX 36 and a +5 Natural AC bonus from Bark, then I toss Mage Armor on for another +4 vs ghosties and voila, she gets hit EVERY time), and those damn wraiths still eat her alive.

36 Dex means a +13 modifier with robes.

10 Base
13 Dex Mod
5 Barkskin
4 Mage Armor
-----------
32 AC.......extremely low

And I hate to say it this way, but when you take 20 dex at creation and take 8-10 con, yeah, wraiths are going to chew you up.

tihocan
10-05-2007, 02:16 PM
This is one of the things that makes me glad I have that +5 Ghost Touch Tower Shield. Because that will work, and I hardly get hit at all.
Ghost touch shields provide no additional protection against wraiths (I have proven and bug-reported it quite a while ago).

Btw blocking used to prevent con damage for sure. I don't know if it's still the case. On another hand, I heard about how DR blocking did not work anymore on attacks from behind, so maybe the same applies now for special attacks.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 02:18 PM
Look at what you wrote and what I highlighted in red

A pally with saves well above most don't ya think you could just be making the saves. My pally hardly ever takes stat damage from wraiths. I never see the save symbol but compaired to any of my other chars my pally takes next to no damage from wraiths.

That was the last character to run through that quest. Would you like me to say that on my BARD with crappy Con saves blocking saves me stat damage? Because it has. Delera's run just before Mod 5. Maybe Mod 5 changed things which is why I would like to test it(as I said I'll be out of town).

It's not DR because she is using a Mithral Buckler.

Mad_Bombardier
10-05-2007, 02:19 PM
My baby ranger runs around with a rather high ethereal AC(DEX 36 and a +5 Natural AC bonus from Bark, then I toss Mage Armor on for another +4 vs ghosties and voila, she gets hit EVERY time), and those damn wraiths still eat her alive.


"An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it."

Therefore your sweet AC is reduced to like a 29, not that hard to hit by a CR 12+ critter.

This is one of the things that makes me glad I have that +5 Ghost Touch Tower Shield. Because that will work, and I hardly get hit at all.

Now if I could anly find some +5 Ghost Touch Full Plate I'd be set.Too bad there are no Incorporeal Touch Attacks in DDO. :rolleyes: If there were, you'd be right. As it is now, you're wrong. I can walk around in low level missions (say Chamber of Insanity) with my AC tank and not get hit by incorporeals. They DO NOT bypass armor. Remove my shield, I get hit some. Remove my armor, I get hit some more. Re-equip shield, I get hit less. It's quite apparent and easily reproducible.

The incorporeals in the Orchard *probably* just have +50 or +60 to-hit to fake bypassing armor.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Too bad there are no Incorporeal Touch Attacks in DDO. :rolleyes: If there were, you'd be right. As it is now, you're wrong. I can walk around in low level missions (say Chamber of Insanity) with my AC tank and not get hit by incorporeals. They DO NOT bypass armor. Remove my shield, I get hit some. Remove my armor, I get hit some more. Re-equip shield, I get hit less. It's quite apparent and easily reproducible.

The incorporeals in the Orchard *probably* just have +50 or +60 to-hit to fake bypassing armor.

Yup, and the way I make it through unscathed is haste + displacement, wraiths don't see through concealment.

A ranger just has to rely on speed.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 02:22 PM
I'd be more prone to agree with Asp's view if wraith to-hit wasn't so inflated.

Wraith's to hit is actually fairly poor. However they ignore Armor, Natural Armor, and such. Your AC is you dex modifier + Dodge + Deflection + Luck + Insight. Mage Armor spell does count which is why you will sometimes see level 14 fighters hauling those potions around and drinking them.

My robe wearing Ranger friend hardly ever gets hit by Wraiths while my AdmBody WF Paladin friend can really start feeling the hits from Wraiths.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 02:24 PM
Wraith's to hit is actually fairly poor. However they ignore Armor, Natural Armor, and such. Your AC is you dex modifier + Dodge + Deflection + Luck + Insight. Mage Armor spell does count which is why you will sometimes see level 14 fighters hauling those potions around and drinking them.

My robe wearing Ranger friend hardly ever gets hit by Wraiths while my AdmBody WF Paladin friend can really start feeling the hits from Wraiths.

The incorporeal touch concept does not work in DDO. Wraiths cannot bypass armor. My high-AC dwarven tank will almost never feel the touch of a wraith.

Mad_Bombardier
10-05-2007, 02:26 PM
Wraith's to hit is actually fairly poor. However they ignore Armor, Natural Armor, and such. Your AC is you dex modifier + Dodge + Deflection + Luck + Insight. Mage Armor spell does count which is why you will sometimes see level 14 fighters hauling those potions around and drinking them.NOT IN DDO! :p

P.S. Asp, I'm gonna leave this one to you. Had enough of this the other day in the other thread.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 02:28 PM
NOT IN DDO! :p

P.S. Asp, I'm gonna leave this one to you. Had enough of this the other day in the other thread.
I feel like this is one of those "slashing banishers" threads.....

Mercules
10-05-2007, 02:30 PM
The incorporeal touch concept does not work in DDO. Wraiths cannot bypass armor. My high-AC dwarven tank will almost never feel the touch of a wraith.

So then why is there an apparent decrease in hits once a mage armor is applied. I know we can't actively know they were missing because AC went up as opposed to them just suddenly rolling worse, but there is a lot of subjective evidence to support Mage Armor being useful against them. Again, it could be perceived to be affecting the outcome, when reality is otherwise.

ebt-dnd
10-05-2007, 02:33 PM
Re. shield blocking drain effect on special moves. I seem to remember them changing it so that the formerly special attacks hit on normal attacks now for the wraiths (level drain, etc). So you don't see it coming now.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 02:33 PM
So then why is there an apparent decrease in hits once a mage armor is applied. I know we can't actively know they were missing because AC went up as opposed to them just suddenly rolling worse, but there is a lot of subjective evidence to support Mage Armor being useful against them. Again, it could be perceived to be affecting the outcome, when reality is otherwise.

I can't explain it, but I have seen no evidence that incorporeal touch works properly. My rogue gets hit by wraiths more often than my fighter, but has a higher AC vs. wraiths according to PnP. The only explanation for this is that she has a lower total AC, even though she wears no armor. My fighter, with 7 higher AC, rarely, if ever, is touched.

tihocan
10-05-2007, 02:37 PM
there is a lot of subjective evidence to support Mage Armor being useful against them.
You said it. Subjective.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 02:41 PM
You said it. Subjective.

Hey... mine is subjective but, "My high AC character gets hit less than my low one." is subjective as well.

Mad_Bombardier
10-05-2007, 02:45 PM
So then why is there an apparent decrease in hits once a mage armor is applied. I know we can't actively know they were missing because AC went up as opposed to them just suddenly rolling worse, but there is a lot of subjective evidence to support Mage Armor being useful against them. Again, it could be perceived to be affecting the outcome, when reality is otherwise.Because Mage Armor adds +4 armor bonus to your AC. If you go from no armor bonus in robes to 4 armor bonus, that's less chance to get hit. But, if you have Armored Bracers +6 and drink Mage Armor, you will see no difference.

A lot of it has to do with people who know their stuff in PnP and come into DDO using the same strategies. They are so used to it working in PnP that they don't really question a change in game mechanics for DDO. Especially not when DDO documentation is copied verbatim from PnP Sourcebooks with no regard to changing mechanics.

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 02:46 PM
DDO has no touch attacks, incorporeal or otherwise.

Incorporeal creatures deal with the same AC as everyone else. And have inflated to-hits to simulate touch attacks.

Missing_Minds
10-05-2007, 03:11 PM
Relax...don't get your undies in a bunch.

Would you like a spell to stop melee damage as well? Or perhaps a spell that just gathers loot from all the chests in the quest and tosses it into your backpack for ya?

There isn't a spell that stops it, not in DDO, and not in PnP. And that's on purpose. They are a midlevel undead that can be used in later quests for this reason alone. They always remain at least a small threat. There are several instances of monsters that fit this type. Golems being one. Blanket immunities make them still a threat well past their CR.

Just as I thought you can't.

Spell to stop melee damage. On which side? To stop them damaging stuff... hold person, hold monster, flesh to stone, paralizers, hold undead, command undead, charm person, charm monster, dominate person, command, greater command....
To stop us from taking damage... palidins and clerics have a DR spell. (think it is worthless though), arcanes have stoneskin, bards can take warchanter, there are various armor enhancments and metals that give DR.

And your point is? Right.. you have a hard time with it so you try to get snide with an instant win button because you do not like a suggestion/request. Funny how that never wins an argument ever and shows people your way of thinking.

Yes, there is no protection spell from the draining effects of wraiths in base PnP. (never say never because you can not control house rules.) however, how many times have you been with a GM that threw 5 wraiths at once at the party that... vanished from all area effects? That all attacked a singular character? That used dice that normally rolls 10 and under vs flat equal chances for all numbers? That come at you in wave after wave? My hope for you is that you never have. I hate GMs that view it as me vs. them.

DDO is NOT PnP. it is a house ruled subset of 3.5. As of such they can do whatever they want. I am requesting a spell that will block these drain effects. Now, do I expect it to last as long as resists, or be a very low level spell do to its specfic effect? Nope. I'd expect it to be one level higher min than nighshroud (I think it is. the one that stops you from becoming a wraith) and last as long as haste.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 03:19 PM
Because Mage Armor adds +4 armor bonus to your AC. If you go from no armor bonus in robes to 4 armor bonus, that's less chance to get hit. But, if you have Armored Bracers +6 and drink Mage Armor, you will see no difference.

A lot of it has to do with people who know their stuff in PnP and come into DDO using the same strategies. They are so used to it working in PnP that they don't really question a change in game mechanics for DDO. Especially not when DDO documentation is copied verbatim from PnP Sourcebooks with no regard to changing mechanics.

Ehem... these are people wearing full plate and claiming that it appears they are being hit less with Mage Armor on than without.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 03:20 PM
DDO has no touch attacks, incorporeal or otherwise.

Incorporeal creatures deal with the same AC as everyone else. And have inflated to-hits to simulate touch attacks.

And you can all stop harping on me now. One of the sources I trust beyond all other posters on the boards has spoken.:)

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 03:26 PM
To stop us from taking damage... palidins and clerics have a DR spell. (think it is worthless though), arcanes have stoneskin, bards can take warchanter, there are various armor enhancments and metals that give DR.

Those spells stop some weapon damage, but don't prevent all weapon damage.

And oddly enough we have spells that stop some ability damage, but don't prevent all ability damage.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 03:31 PM
Those spells stop some weapon damage, but don't prevent all weapon damage.

And oddly enough we have spells that stop some ability damage, but don't prevent all ability damage.

Exactly... Someone casts Stoneskin, well anyone with Admantine can bypass it.

Someone casts Resist Poison, well you can still Disease them.

I don't see the need, or like the idea of being able to make yourself immune to everything. We can be immune to enough already.

Missing_Minds
10-05-2007, 03:45 PM
And oddly enough we have spells that stop some ability damage, but don't prevent all ability damage.

I must be brain dead because I can not think of any spells that will stop some ability damage unless you mean remove poison. That is the only preventive one I can think of.

And Mercules, I'm sure you realize that disease is not the same as poison.

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 03:50 PM
I must be brain dead because I can not think of any spells that will stop some ability damage unless you mean remove poison. That is the only preventive one I can think of.

That's because you're thinking of some/all in the same terms as DR. That's not the case.

Death Ward stops some ability damage but not all: You won't take ability damage from Shadows or other sources that rely on negative energy attacks.

Remove Disease stops some ability damage but not all: Any ability damage you would've taken from disease is blocked, but any other source still gets through.

Neutralize Poison stops some ability damage but not all: Like Remove Disease, you won't take any damage from poison, or contract any poison in the future, but you're still vulnerable to other sources.

Mercules
10-05-2007, 03:55 PM
I must be brain dead because I can not think of any spells that will stop some ability damage unless you mean remove poison. That is the only preventive one I can think of.

And Mercules, I'm sure you realize that disease is not the same as poison.

Of course.. that is the point.

It was a comparison to various sources of DR which only stop SOME damage and an example of a spell that stops ability damage. Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, and Death Ward all stop certain types of ability damage as negative energy effects, disease, and poison all create ability damage. Now, I believe, even untyped DR can be bypassed with effects such as Bane on a weapon as it is untyped as well. Wraith's touch attack is like that, something you can't just cast a spell to eliminate.

You have mulitiple spells to prevent it though. Displacement comes to mind since the Wraith will miss a lot more. Anything that raises AC, same thing. Anything that boosts Fort saves.

Jomee
10-05-2007, 04:07 PM
Wraith Constitution drain != negative energy attack

Deathward is not supposed to block it.

"Grants an ally immunity to death spells and effects, energy drain and negative energy effects."

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 04:08 PM
"Grants an ally immunity to death spells and effects, energy drain and negative energy effects."

I hope you know that "!=" means "is not the same as."

Jomee
10-05-2007, 04:10 PM
I hope you know that "!=" means "is not the same as."

So the damage from wraiths is not negative energy or energy drain? It used to work before the mod.

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 04:10 PM
I hope you know that "!=" means "is not the same as."

As in:

Aspenor != cool.




:cool:

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 04:11 PM
So the damage from wraiths is not negative energy or energy drain? It used to work before the mod.

No it is not. And No it didn't.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 04:12 PM
So the damage from wraiths is not negative energy or energy drain? It used to work before the mod.

Con damage from wraiths is called "constitution drain." It is not a negative energy attack, therefore should not be blocked by deathward.

Jomee
10-05-2007, 04:13 PM
Con damage from wraiths is called "constitution drain." It is not a negative energy attack, therefore should not be blocked by deathward.

Well Jeez I guess i got one less thing to complain about, off to find something else :P

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 04:20 PM
As in:

Aspenor != cool.




:cool:

Chuck wouldn't like that (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1333704&postcount=35):D

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 04:21 PM
The more in-depth answer runs something like this:

Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) is a specific in-game term that refers to the draining of levels. Generally this happens via monster special ability (see Vampires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)) but can also be accomplished via certain spells (see Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm)). When Death Ward says it blocks "energy drain" it's referring only to that specific thing, not any general other stuff that drains your energy in some way.

It also blocks "negative energy attacks" which is a much less specific term. However, anything that is a negative energy attack will specify such in it's description. This can include spells (again, see Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) but also Harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm)) and monster special abilities (see Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm)) but in both cases the "negative energy" aspect must actually be stated or the effect is assumed to not be negative energy based.

A wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm)'s constitution drain special ability is not energy drain, nor does it specify that it's a negative energy attack, meaning it is not. Thus, Death Ward doesn't block it.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 04:23 PM
You're too kind, MT. I usually just force my knowledge on them with brute force.

That always makes it more funny when I'm wrong. ;)

MysticTheurge
10-05-2007, 04:24 PM
That always makes it more funny when I'm wrong. ;)

Oh believe me. Of this, I am well aware. :D

Jomee
10-05-2007, 04:41 PM
The more in-depth answer runs something like this:



Now thats Jargon i can understand, Thanks

Snike
10-05-2007, 05:51 PM
Still think there is something fubar about the save roll. I don't recall ever see'ing one. Is it possible the wraith's also cast con drain, which would be affected by death ward and give people saving throws. On top of thier special ability that is no longer affected by death ward and does not allow a saving throw as it should?

Epitome
10-05-2007, 09:43 PM
I don't see how you guys aren't getting pummeled by these mobs (shadows, wraiths, etc.) in mod 5 elite quests on high AC toons. I usually run 54-55 self buffed and 59-60 group buffed AC, one intimidate and I'm gonna hit the deck pretty fast.

I tend to agree with MT that they are giving juicy "to hits" to simulate bypassing armor.

Ghost Touch shields are nothing more than sheilds capable of "bashing" incorporal mobs without getting the "incorporal" message.

I tend to have problems with sheild blocking in general as well. Your not going to resist getting flanked by a wraith, shadow, etc when blocking if you are juggling agro with 2 or more of these types of mobs. So the whole "can't get the special damage type if I shield block it" is easier said than done on mobs that can phase in and out and flank you very quickly. I would say that the protective arc for shield block would be less than 90 degrees infront of you ":mad:<" (my forum simulation of the protective arc infront of your shield block using < as the arc). The new "blade barrier/firewall" module lays waste to my high AC fighter, espeically if I lay out the intimidates.

issiana
10-05-2007, 10:07 PM
well well well - 3 holes in the ground. lol

looks like you learn something new each day. I myself have always wodered why deathward spell didnt stop wraiths con drains, now i know :)

looks like one more reason i dont need to take that whining cleric along now, as i no longer really need deathward. lol :p

Furgulder
10-05-2007, 11:20 PM
wraiths wouldnt be a problem if they didnt have the ghetto ability to "phase out" of combat. whenever I roll in PnP, which everyone that quotes the SRD seems to be assuming this game is based off of, I get a 50/50 shot at hitting incorperal(sp) creatures (such as wraiths).

its a cool looking effect that definitely affects the players in a negative way. you should always have a chance to hit a wraith in combat with you period. you shouldnt be swinging at air 4 times before it "phases in, hits you for con damage, and phases back out so you cant hit it." all in the span of 1-2 seconds of course :rolleyes:

Ziggy
10-05-2007, 11:24 PM
Ohhh careful Zig...you may be labled a "Smart Guy" for that answer.
Thats ok. I can take being a "smart guy":D

Ranmaru2
10-06-2007, 02:41 AM
If a wraith's con damage is considered a negative energy attack, or that Vampire Con blast, why doesn't pell designed to block negative energy block it? =S I honestly hate getting blasted for 8 pts of con and then another 3 and hoping to survive, even with Death Ward...

Shade
10-06-2007, 04:02 AM
Every hit has a save.

My 30+ fort save barbarian can stand there and let a wraith him for hours with no problem. Might roll a 1 here and there but generally doesn't matter, his cons high.

20ish fort save sorcerer gets owned quickly..

There's a save, it always works, it might not display - the combat log is junk, and its definetely not DC14.

MysticTheurge
10-06-2007, 08:03 AM
wraiths wouldnt be a problem if they didnt have the ghetto ability to "phase out" of combat. whenever I roll in PnP, which everyone that quotes the SRD seems to be assuming this game is based off of, I get a 50/50 shot at hitting incorperal(sp) creatures (such as wraiths).

its a cool looking effect that definitely affects the players in a negative way. you should always have a chance to hit a wraith in combat with you period. you shouldnt be swinging at air 4 times before it "phases in, hits you for con damage, and phases back out so you cant hit it." all in the span of 1-2 seconds of course :rolleyes:

This has been explained by the devs as the incorporeal creature passing into the ground/wall and then coming back. Personally, I have some major issues with it's implementation and think that it's a sloppy interpretation of the rules designed to unfairly benefit the monster.


If a wraith's con damage is considered a negative energy attack, or that Vampire Con blast, why doesn't pell designed to block negative energy block it? =S I honestly hate getting blasted for 8 pts of con and then another 3 and hoping to survive, even with Death Ward...

A wraith's con damage is not considered a negative energy attack. Neither, for that matter is a vampire's Blood Drain ability (which drain's constitution). Death ward will block neither of those things.

Death Ward will prevent a vampire from energy draining you (i.e. giving you negative levels) with it's slam attack. Something I'm not sure DDO even has implemented.

Snike
10-06-2007, 08:18 AM
20ish fort save sorcerer gets owned quickly..

I always thought 20ish on a save was pretty good. Thier DC on the con drain must be pushing 40.

MysticTheurge
10-06-2007, 08:44 AM
There's a save, it always works, it might not display - the combat log is junk, and its definetely not DC14.

Here's a screenshot (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/pics/wraith.jpg) in case anyone's still doubting it.

Drak
10-06-2007, 09:32 AM
read a page or two, you guys have the right idea.
i was a bit shocked when i was con dmgd with DW, but hey they be the cards we are dealt.
I never tried to find out the why's or wherefores, just accepted it as a new challenge

ChaosTheEternal
10-06-2007, 10:03 AM
There's a save, it always works, it might not display - the combat log is junk, and its definetely not DC14.
Just tested it. The save roll displayed every time he did a Con drain attack where I wasn't blocking (when I was blocking, there was no save, because there was no Con drain).

Also, the DC is 25.

MysticTheurge
10-06-2007, 10:12 AM
Also, the DC is 25.

The DC probably varies greatly depending on the CR of the wraith in question (as well as whether it's a wraith, dire wraith or some other kind of wraith-variant creature).

ChaosTheEternal
10-06-2007, 10:48 AM
The DC probably varies greatly depending on the CR of the wraith in question (as well as whether it's a wraith, dire wraith or some other kind of wraith-variant creature).My statement of the save DC was based off of this (from the OP):

Well at least from the wraiths in the orchard.
The Dread Wraiths in the Orchard explorer area have a DC 25 Constitution Drain attack (matching their PnP entry, I guess). As to whether or not Dread Wraiths in the quests (especially on other difficulties) have a different DC, I can't tell you.

Nevthial
10-06-2007, 11:03 AM
There is no protection spell from the draining effects of wraiths in base PnP.


Not True! Look at the 3rd level spell negative energy protection.. It may prevent negative levels AND ability score drains as these are BOTH negative energy attacks. Incorporeal undead ARE negative energy themselves, tied to the negative material plane.

MysticTheurge
10-06-2007, 01:08 PM
Not True! Look at the 3rd level spell negative energy protection.. It may prevent negative levels AND ability score drains as these are BOTH negative energy attacks. Incorporeal undead ARE negative energy themselves, tied to the negative material plane.

Check again. Ability damage/drain are not, by default, negative energy attacks. Wraith Constitution Drain in particular is not.