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View Full Version : Raid Loot 20th turn in...is this working correctly Graal?



Alexander_Illusioni
10-04-2007, 09:01 AM
Tomes are part of the raid item list and are included in the bonus raid end quest rewards.

Example: Vault of Night has 19 raid items and 6 different +2 tomes.
Bonus raid item list includes 12 unique items out of the total 25 possible.

Ok, if this is true, the way raid loot is dropping on the 20th turn in makes no sense to me. After completing the raid two times on different characters for the 20th completion in the Demon Queen quest, both times I received 10 items to choose from. All the items were raid loot items, no tomes.

According to the above I would expect in the Demon Queen quest that 11 items would drop, and that on average 3 of them would be +2 tomes. The Demon Queen quest has 16 items plus the chance for a tome. As per the example above this should mean 16 plus 6 tomes or half of 22 items should drop, meaning 11 items. Only 10 items are dropping (not 11), plus if there are 6 tomes to choose from, this is extremely unlikely. The odds of pulling no tomes at all, twice, if 6 are available to drop is astronomically small (please someone post if they have seen 3 or more tomes in their 20th time selection). I have seen people post that they have received one tome.

Apparently, the current system is not recognizing the possibility of six different tomes dropping, probably only one. The result of the current drops is allowing a much higher chance at getting raid loot, in the case of the Demon Queen, 10 items out of a total 17 to choose from, for a 59% chance of getting the raid loot item you want, but only a 1 in 17 chance at a tome or a 6% chance. Is this the way this mechanic is suppose to work? Also the mechanic as described above would mean that 11 items should be dropping not 10 as currently occurring.

If anyone has an explanation on why only ten items are dropping (when it should be 11), and why tomes are not represented as an equal drop (average of three per choice at 20) is occurring, especially Graal, I would like to hear ideas as to what is happening, as well as what should be occurring. Maybe this is what the developers want, but from Graal’s post above, it does not seem to be.

Thanks

MacDaddy89
10-04-2007, 09:08 AM
While they claim each Tome is considered an individual item, it is clear that is simply not the case - or rather that the distribution is so far from linear that it hardly makes any difference.

Can tomes drop? Certainly - but if they dropped as has been laid out there would not be any complaints. As the Tomes are no where near dropping as they should, something is clearly wrong.

juniorpfactors
10-04-2007, 09:12 AM
what you are not getting is tomes maybe a 1% drop rate while all the others are 9-10% ....tomes drop rate will be very low.....so tomes say are total 6%....while the balance is 94% chance of being on the list

Eladrin
10-04-2007, 09:19 AM
Not every item has the same chance to drop on a treasure table. It's exactly as if you opened the chest (X) times with a 100% chance of generating a raid item, but with no chance of duplicates.


While they claim each Tome is considered an individual item, it is clear that is simply not the case
There are screenshots out there of "20 times" loot tables that have multiple tomes on them and thus disagree with you.

Soul-Shaker
10-04-2007, 09:21 AM
The wording they used was "just under half" of the total items on the table. so 22/2 -1 = 10. as for von and reaver, they are at odds and round up then -1 on total. Also the items are weighted.

ccheath776
10-04-2007, 09:41 AM
Not every item has the same chance to drop on a treasure table. It's exactly as if you opened the chest (X) times with a 100% chance of generating a raid item, but with no chance of duplicates.


There are screenshots out there of "20 times" loot tables that have multiple tomes on them and thus disagree with you.

Yes but shouldnt ALL the possible raid loot display?
Why is that only a few items are displaying.
I can imagine someone looking for the sword of shadows or the str belt from VON, goes through 20 times on the raid, pulls up the end reward list and neither of those items are on there. I would be pretty dam PO'ed.

tihocan
10-04-2007, 09:46 AM
Yes but shouldnt ALL the possible raid loot display?
Why is that only a few items are displaying.
I can imagine someone looking for the sword of shadows or the str belt from VON, goes through 20 times on the raid, pulls up the end reward list and neither of those items are on there. I would be pretty dam PO'ed.
It's never been meant to guarantee you'd get the single item you're after.

Tenkari_Rozahas
10-04-2007, 09:47 AM
Yes but shouldnt ALL the possible raid loot display?
Why is that only a few items are displaying.
I can imagine someone looking for the sword of shadows or the str belt from VON, goes through 20 times on the raid, pulls up the end reward list and neither of those items are on there. I would be pretty dam PO'ed.

they stated like 10-12 items would be displayed, to give everything would defeat the purpose of having the chest at the end drop loot anyway, if everyones just going to end up with the items they want guaranteed at 20th raid or something.

Impaqt
10-04-2007, 09:53 AM
I had a Guildy get Multiple +2 Tomes in his Dragon Reward List.... (Unfortunatly he ate them both already so couldnt use either one!)

Its all based on the roll....

Raid loot items have never been a guarantee... Why shoudl the reward list be any different?

Alexander_Illusioni
10-04-2007, 10:08 AM
Not every item has the same chance to drop on a treasure table. It's exactly as if you opened the chest (X) times with a 100% chance of generating a raid item, but with no chance of duplicates.


There are screenshots out there of "20 times" loot tables that have multiple tomes on them and thus disagree with you.


Thanks! I thought they all had an equal chance to drop. The other question is still why only 10 items, should it not be 11? Not a big deal, just seemed a bit off.

MacDaddy89
10-04-2007, 10:39 AM
There are screenshots out there of "20 times" loot tables that have multiple tomes on them and thus disagree with you.

Negative. It could simply be that the 'tome' slot was rolled multiple times thus generating multiple tomes. It does not 'prove' that each individual tome is represented individually...

Glacier123
10-04-2007, 10:46 AM
Negative. It could simply be that the 'tome' slot was rolled multiple times thus generating multiple tomes. It does not 'prove' that each individual tome is represented individually...

It helps if you include the full quote:


Not every item has the same chance to drop on a treasure table. It's exactly as if you opened the chest (X) times with a 100% chance of generating a raid item, but with no chance of duplicates.


There are screenshots out there of "20 times" loot tables that have multiple tomes on them and thus disagree with you.

If it were true that there was only 1 tome slot being rolled for, then you would only see 1 tome in the list if there are no chances of duplicates, i.e. another tome slot.

ccheath776
10-04-2007, 11:03 AM
It's never been meant to guarantee you'd get the single item you're after.

After 20 times through a raid. I better darn well be guaranteed something dont you think?

tihocan
10-04-2007, 11:07 AM
After 20 times through a raid. I better darn well be guaranteed something dont you think?
No I don't.

Laith
10-04-2007, 11:12 AM
After 20 times through a raid. I better darn well be guaranteed something dont you think?You WILL get "something" just not necessarily the item you desire most.

An occurance that is possible even after your 20th run of most every other loot run in the game (TR, WW, PoP, Xorian, etc)

Beherit_Baphomar
10-04-2007, 11:12 AM
After 20 times through a raid. I better darn well be guaranteed something dont you think?

You are guarantee'd something after 20 runs, raid loot, but not a specific piece of raid loot.

You are guarantee'd ten raid items from the raid loot tables....thats it...not one specific piece...

MacDaddy89
10-04-2007, 11:36 AM
It helps if you include the full quote:

If it were true that there was only 1 tome slot being rolled for, then you would only see 1 tome in the list if there are no chances of duplicates, i.e. another tome slot.

Again, negative. I could design a system with 6 slots and another with 1 slot and they would result in the exact same chance of tome drops.

A system can roll an item before rolling on a sublist - not that it can 'only' roll that sublist once.

Laith
10-04-2007, 11:41 AM
Again, negative. I could design a system with 6 slots and another with 1 slot and they would result in the exact same chance of tome drops.

A system can roll an item before rolling on a sublist - not that it can 'only' roll that sublist once.doesn't matter.

IF there was a sublist, it can apparently be repeated. Multiple tomes have been present on these lists.

Impaqt
10-04-2007, 11:41 AM
After 20 times through a raid. I better darn well be guaranteed something dont you think?


Absolutely not.

Inthe 20 Runs you did to get to your static list, How many tomes did you see drop? THe bulk of those most likely were when 2 items were guarnateed even....

So out of 40ish items, I would be you saw no more than 2 Tomes.... Probobly 1 or even Zero....

WHy would the end reward list be full of them if the drop list is so low?

ANd of those 40ish itmes, how many times did the one item your missing drop? Once? Twice? WHenther it was bad luck on rolls.. Or someone needed it more than you you didnt get it..... SO why sould it be guaranteed inthe end reward list? How would the game even know exactly what item you were going for?

Cyr
10-04-2007, 11:59 AM
Weighting the items in the 20th turn in = lame. We have enough dreamsplitters, tenderizors, and other overly highly weighted raid items already. With the 20 turn ins having high odds of junk for your char now, that makes the new raid loot system (with much lower odds of pulling raid items from chests, and please no silly arguments about full raid groups please since everyone knows that the majority of raids were and will be run short manned) even more lame. Got to say not a step in the right direction just as the very rare tome/shield drops are silly in their rarity also. Grinding is = meh, I could play everquest or WOW if that is what made for a fun game experience thank you very much.

Riggs
10-04-2007, 12:37 PM
Since most are usually only looking for 1 or 2 items from a list, or Tomes...20 runs, and 2 months of continously running one raid is a lot of time for 1 or 2 items.

Given the odds in a 50/50 draw, it is easily possible to not get what your looking for on a 20th run. So then you have to hope the next 20 drops it.

Some people think 40 runs, and 4 months of continously running one raid on one character to be a huge amount of time, some do not. And the odds can very easily not drop what you want, meaning 60 tries.

People who think running a single quest or raid for months on a single character are never going to see the problem other people have with that concept.

Grinding is bad, grinding is WoW, and many people didnt sign up to play a game just to imitate time sinks from other games.

D&D allowed people to make or buy specific items. If you had cash, or was a wiz, or knew a wiz, you could get pretty much anything you wanted other than artifacts given money and time.

Until DDO adds enhanting items, or buying custom items, raids and named items are the ONLY way to get better than random loot. People who used to play D&D generally find it 2-6 months of grinding for a single item to be NOT fun in any way shape or form. If you have 4-6 characters you like playing, and everyone wants better items, that is a LOT of time for a couple items.

To conclude - Grinding = bad.

MacDaddy89
10-04-2007, 12:43 PM
doesn't matter.

IF there was a sublist, it can apparently be repeated. Multiple tomes have been present on these lists.

? we have never said they could not. But his allegation is not proved by the evidence he offered.

Glacier123
10-04-2007, 01:25 PM
Again, negative. I could design a system with 6 slots and another with 1 slot and they would result in the exact same chance of tome drops.

A system can roll an item before rolling on a sublist - not that it can 'only' roll that sublist once.

What you are saying doesn't fit with what the system is set up for. If there can be no duplicates (according to both Graal and Eladrin), and the reward "TOME" is rolled for, then there cannot possibly be another "TOME" reward rolled for. However, since there are cases of more than one "TOME" reward on a list, they cannot be considered the same reward.

Aspenor
10-04-2007, 04:29 PM
I just collected my 20th reaver raid end reward, and I had a +3 con tome and +3 strength tome on my list. Seems like its working :)

Okita
10-04-2007, 04:50 PM
Weighting the items in the 20th turn in = lame. We have enough dreamsplitters, tenderizors, and other overly highly weighted raid items already

+Kundarak Shields
+Kundarak Robes

Alexander_Illusioni
10-04-2007, 09:00 PM
I just collected my 20th reaver raid end reward, and I had a +3 con tome and +3 strength tome on my list. Seems like its working :)

Glad to hear it, and grats on that pull!!:) :) :)

Angelus_dead
02-02-2009, 01:52 AM
Not every item has the same chance to drop on a treasure table. It's exactly as if you opened the chest (X) times with a 100% chance of generating a raid item, but with no chance of duplicates.
This could deflate future conspiracy theories.