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View Full Version : Light hammers should be changed to 3x crits?



Riggs
10-02-2007, 05:18 PM
All other hammers now are 3x crits. Especially considering light hammers only do d4, vs a light mace doing d6. It only seems natural that it should also be changed as mauls were.

Scalion
10-02-2007, 05:24 PM
All other hammers now are 3x crits. Especially considering light hammers only do d4, vs a light mace doing d6. It only seems natural that it should also be changed as mauls were.

I agree. Especially because light hammers are a martial weapon rather than a simple weapon.

DSL
10-02-2007, 05:38 PM
No question of this in my mind. In PnP, the balancing factor is that light hammers can be thrown as ranged weapons (which is also pretty paltry as consolation). Of course, in DDO this is not the case, so switching to a x3 crit just seems to make sense. As it stands, they are really the weakest weapon in the game.

Then again, I remember for the first few months when they weren't even treated as light weapons for Weapon Finesse purposes, so at least they've improved somewhat, but there is currently every reason to use a light mace (simple weapon) over a light hammer (martial weapon) with all other factors being equal.

Scalion
10-02-2007, 05:56 PM
No question of this in my mind. In PnP, the balancing factor is that light hammers can be thrown as ranged weapons (which is also pretty paltry as consolation). Of course, in DDO this is not the case, so switching to a x3 crit just seems to make sense. As it stands, they are really the weakest weapon in the game.

Then again, I remember for the first few months when they weren't even treated as light weapons for Weapon Finesse purposes, so at least they've improved somewhat, but there is currently every reason to use a light mace (simple weapon) over a light hammer (martial weapon) with all other factors being equal.

The only time you would want to use a light hammer is when using a light mace in primary. 2 light maces is -4 to attack while a light mace and a light hammer is only -2. This is with the weapon finesse feat and it it's different for strength based attack bonuses i wouldn't know.

Mad_Bombardier
10-02-2007, 06:09 PM
Light Hammers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions) are 1d4 20/x2 in PnP, too. Just be happy we finally have them at all for oozes and skellies. :)

Scalion
10-02-2007, 06:18 PM
Light Hammers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions) are 1d4 20/x2 in PnP, too. Just be happy we finally have them at all for oozes and skellies. :)

It's definately better to have them then not to have them....but what were the PnP rules on the khopesh again? Not quite the same as ddo if I remember correctly.

Mad_Bombardier
10-02-2007, 06:24 PM
It's definately better to have them then not to have them....but what were the PnP rules on the khopesh again? Not quite the same as ddo if I remember correctly.Touché. :D

DSL
10-02-2007, 06:40 PM
The only time you would want to use a light hammer is when using a light mace in primary. 2 light maces is -4 to attack while a light mace and a light hammer is only -2. This is with the weapon finesse feat and it it's different for strength based attack bonuses i wouldn't know.


Huh? No it isn't. You can use a light mace in each hand with Two-Weapon Fighting and get only -2/-2. The -4 only kicks in when your "off" hand weapon is not light, but otherwise has no bearing on what you us in your "main" hand. This applies in both PnP and DDO equally. Furthermore, Weapon Finesse has no impact on how the TWF penalties are applied, it only determines whether you use your Str bonus or your Dex bonus to modify your attack rolls.

Thus (assuming sensible use of main/off hand):

Heavy Mace/Light mace = -2/-2
Heavy Mace/Heavy Mace = -4/-4
Heavy Mace/Light hammer = -2/-2
Light Mace/Light Mace = -2/-2
Light Hammer/Light Mace = -2/-2

DSL
10-02-2007, 06:45 PM
It's definately better to have them then not to have them....but what were the PnP rules on the khopesh again? Not quite the same as ddo if I remember correctly.


Not necessarily. As it stands, one could argue that light hammers are "polluting" the random-drop tables with a sub-par weapon type. If the +3 adamantine light hammer of Smiting you just pulled could have instead been a light mace, then we would in fact be better off without them.

And indeed the changes to Khopeshes just reinforces the need for a change, seeing as they've already shown a willingness to veer somewhat form the PnP tables. The fact that DDO light hammers can't be used as ranged weapons (and throwing hammers weren't introduced until recently) completely justifies a change here.

HumanJHawkins
10-02-2007, 07:00 PM
Not necessarily. As it stands, one could argue that light hammers are "polluting" the random-drop tables with a sub-par weapon type. If the +3 adamantine light hammer of Smiting you just pulled could have instead been a light mace, then we would in fact be better off without them.

By that logic, you should get rid of half the weapons in the game... Only the best in class should survive so that we always pull a "best in class" weapon of smiting.

The reason weaker weapons exist is precisely so you don't always pull a +3 Adamantine Light Mace of smiting... That, and to give players something to calculate... Something to make a mistake on so that they can feel good when they learn that it is **** and they are better off with something else. (Come on... just look at the Kama... You are going to spend a feat so you can use a less effective weapon than a sickle?)

It's also the same reason we have the "of Performing" suffix on things a Bard would never use.

Cheers!

DSL
10-02-2007, 07:10 PM
By that logic, you should get rid of half the weapons in the game... Only the best in class should survive so that we always pull a "best in class" weapon of smiting.[...]

(Come on... just look at the Kama... You are going to spend a feat so you can use a less effective weapon than a sickle?)

It's also the same reason we have the "of Performing" suffix on things a Bard would never use.

Cheers!

The issue is that there is supposed to be some measure of balance between each weapon. Simple weapons are supposed to be less effective overall than martial weapons (and certainly less effective than a specific martial counterpart). A martial weapon with a x3 or x4 crit multiplier should have a worse crit range than a x2 martial weapon. A weapon with a higher base die should have worse crit stats than a lower die equivalent. and so on...
The light hammer is worse overall than any other blunt weapon, which would be fine if it were a simple weapon, but martial weapons are supposed to have some advantage over their simpler cousins.

At least with kamas (which yes, currently are probably the most useless melee weapon type in the game), we can hold out hope that they will become useful when monks are introduced. Plus of course, they can be useful in that no one else wants them, meaning if you're a kama user you will see little competition for the good kamas.

Riggs
10-02-2007, 08:32 PM
Light Hammers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions) are 1d4 20/x2 in PnP, too. Just be happy we finally have them at all for oozes and skellies. :)

True, but not all pnp rules are always balanced either. Or are balanced in other ways that are not done in DDO, like throwing say.

bobbryan2
10-02-2007, 08:40 PM
Light hammers are supposed to be balanced by the fact that you can also use them as throwing weapons.

As this isn't the case in DDO, they should be changed from 1d4 / 20x2 to 1d6 20x3 in my opinion.

TechNoFear
10-03-2007, 12:58 AM
(Come on... just look at the Kama... You are going to spend a feat so you can use a less effective weapon than a sickle?)

I have a axiomatic kama of disruption (rr:elf/drow ml:14) in the bank wondering what I will do with it....even for that quality wep, it does not seem worth a feat, though I may now swap Extend for it.

Mercules
10-03-2007, 07:39 AM
I have a axiomatic kama of disruption (rr:elf/drow ml:14) in the bank wondering what I will do with it....even for that quality wep, it does not seem worth a feat, though I may now swap Extend for it.

You are going to give it to your Monk when they finally come out so he can use it with Flurry of Blows and have and extra attack in there with Disruption on it. :)

DSL
10-03-2007, 08:06 AM
You are going to give it to your Monk when they finally come out so he can use it with Flurry of Blows and have and extra attack in there with Disruption on it. :)


Ya, I'm not normally one for that sort of long-term hoarding, but I have a Vorpal kama and a Vertigo +10 kama sitting in the bank patiently waiting to be unleashed in a flurry.

ErgonomicCat
10-03-2007, 08:53 AM
Light hammers are supposed to be balanced by the fact that you can also use them as throwing weapons.

As this isn't the case in DDO, they should be changed from 1d4 / 20x2 to 1d6 20x3 in my opinion.

I tend to agree with that.

Or, if the stats aren't changed, release a few named hammers in to the wild that have some nice stats, or write in some enhancements that benefit the hammer users.

Bludgeoning weapons in d20 have always been slightly worse than their slashing/piercing cousins. I suspect it has to do with DR.

For instance: Keen vs Impact. Keen was around *long* before impact weapons. There's still no Scabbard of Impactful .... Edges?

Compare the top tier 2-h weapons: Greatsword (2d6, 19-20/x2). Greataxe (1d12/x3). Greatclub (1d12/x2). The greatclub is mechanically inferior to each of them.

In PnP, though, you have Mighty Wallop and Greater Mighty Wallop that makes *everything* better.

JayDubya
10-03-2007, 09:17 AM
Ya, I'm not normally one for that sort of long-term hoarding, but I have a Vorpal kama and a Vertigo +10 kama sitting in the bank patiently waiting to be unleashed in a flurry.

Heh, I have a couple of nice kamas as well, same reason. I use one right now w/my paladin, because it's the best transmuting of pure good weapon I have.

Fura
10-03-2007, 09:19 AM
/signed
Put x3crit on light hammer.

DSL
10-03-2007, 09:23 AM
[...]Bludgeoning weapons in d20 have always been slightly worse than their slashing/piercing cousins. I suspect it has to do with DR.

[...]

Compare the top tier 2-h weapons: Greatsword (2d6, 19-20/x2). Greataxe (1d12/x3). Greatclub (1d12/x2). The greatclub is mechanically inferior to each of them.

Don't forget that the DDO maul is now 20/x3, making it a bit better than the greatclub.

Though you could make an argument that there is realism in this, I suspect that the basis for blunt weapons being generally inferior was partly based on 1st Ed clerics limits on weapons (they could only use blunt), as this would not be much of a limitation if they were as good or better than slashing/piercing. DR may also play a part, but it seems to me that in PnP 3.5, DR /blunt is no less common than /piercing or /slashing, except in that skeletons are very common low-level monsters.

Kreaper
10-03-2007, 10:04 AM
Light hammers are WEAPONS?

No wonder I couldn't get it to drive nails in my guild house!


Is there a Home Depot in Stormreach?

ErgonomicCat
10-03-2007, 10:06 AM
Don't forget that the DDO maul is now 20/x3, making it a bit better than the greatclub.

Though you could make an argument that there is realism in this, I suspect that the basis for blunt weapons being generally inferior was partly based on 1st Ed clerics limits on weapons (they could only use blunt), as this would not be much of a limitation if they were as good or better than slashing/piercing. DR may also play a part, but it seems to me that in PnP 3.5, DR /blunt is no less common than /piercing or /slashing, except in that skeletons are very common low-level monsters.

But the maul is only a 1d10, two handed weapon, isn't it?

Still makes it functionally inferior to the Greataxe at 1d12/x3.

If it could be used one-handed, like a bastard sword, that would be one thing.....

Mad_Bombardier
10-03-2007, 10:13 AM
But the maul is only a 1d10, two handed weapon, isn't it?

Still makes it functionally inferior to the Greataxe at 1d12/x3.Unless you are fighting skeletons, razor cats, or other DR/Bludgeon creatures. :p

HumanJHawkins
10-03-2007, 02:20 PM
Man, I sure hope all weapons never become equal... I don't agree that they are supposed to be balanced. I like the fact that we have a range of weapons from "Suck" to "Sweet".

What would be the point if it didn't matter which weapon you chose, because they were all equal?

And it's also not realistic... Chinese peasants didn't invent nunchaku because they were as good as swords... They invented them because they didn't have much more than a couple of sticks and a piece of rope. Plus, having a few weaker options allows turbine to make things like the Giant Stalker Knife... It would unbalance the game too much if that was a Lvl 6 Giant Stalker Long Sword.

Maybe Turbine should make a Skelly-Basher Light Hammer, instead of buffing the base stats.

Mercules
10-03-2007, 02:24 PM
Unless you are fighting skeletons, razor cats, or other DR/Bludgeon creatures. :p

Or Blunt Spec'd instead of slashing.

Laith
10-03-2007, 02:53 PM
But the maul is only a 1d10, two handed weapon, isn't it?

Still makes it functionally inferior to the Greataxe at 1d12/x3.

If it could be used one-handed, like a bastard sword, that would be one thing.....
the only bludgeoning weapon that's up to snuff with other martials is the warhammer.

if they added in shield bashing to the bludgeoning feats, i'd call it all even.

until then, you choose bludgeoning for much the same reason you choose a light repeater... or for the weighted effect. it's pretty sweet.