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parvo
09-30-2007, 09:35 PM
I can't think of any reason why Bluff isn't instant like Intimidate and Diplomacy. It doesn't make much sense. Bluff, in it's current form is even less useful than Intimidate and Diplomacy were before they wer changed to instant. It should be made instant and therefore useful.

Symar-FangofLloth
09-30-2007, 09:38 PM
Feinting in combat, a.k.a. bluffing, is a move action at the best, so it's not instant.

Borror0
09-30-2007, 09:41 PM
That's why there is Improved Feint.

parvo
09-30-2007, 10:06 PM
Feinting in combat, a.k.a. bluffing, is a move action at the best, so it's not instant.

Bluff is not feint. Bluff should take no more time than Intimidate or Diplomacy.

Okita
09-30-2007, 11:17 PM
If often wondered this myself...

I kick myself all the time over it on my rouge... I have a 40ish bluff on her...

and nowhere near that high on diplomacy, shrrrruuuggg

Knightrose
09-30-2007, 11:30 PM
Eventually most of these skills will be pointlessly anyway. As characters become stronger in DDO they also become more efficient. Which leaves once useful tactics in the dust.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-01-2007, 12:02 AM
If often wondered this myself...

I kick myself all the time over it on my rouge... I have a 40ish bluff on her...

and nowhere near that high on diplomacy, shrrrruuuggg

Ya, at L5 I realized the difference and stopped adding to bluff and switched to dip.

Bizbag
10-01-2007, 01:00 AM
Bluff is not feint. Bluff should take no more time than Intimidate or Diplomacy.

But the Bluff action is Feint. When you perform the Feint action, you make a bluff check. What's the difference?

QuantumFX
10-01-2007, 01:44 AM
I can't think of any reason why Bluff isn't instant like Intimidate and Diplomacy.

I can: rogues are the red headed step children of DDO...

Snike
10-01-2007, 03:06 AM
But the Bluff action is Feint. When you perform the Feint action, you make a bluff check. What's the difference?

Bluff is a Skill. Like diplomacy.

Improved Feint is a Feat. Like TWF. And required Combat Expertise.

That is a HUGH difference. Saying the Bluff action IS Feint may be true in your mind but on my action bar it still says bluff... looked all over no Feint here. Improved Feint sure...

What do you call diplomacy in combat? I'm interested.

Okita
10-01-2007, 03:13 AM
ya, my rogue doesn't have the feat so talking about it like it's just a feat is silly.

It's an active skill - just like diplo and intim

ErgonomicCat
10-01-2007, 09:21 AM
ya, my rogue doesn't have the feat so talking about it like it's just a feat is silly.

It's an active skill - just like diplo and intim

Honestly, the argument should be "Why are diplomacy and intimidate instant"?

It should be: Skill: Attack/Full round action. Feat: Move Action. 2nd feat: Instant action.

*points* "Hey! Look! A monkey!"

*handwave* "I'm not the mage you're looking for."

*Chest pound* "Hey! Look at me when I'm hitting you!"

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 09:26 AM
Bluff is not feint. Bluff should take no more time than Intimidate or Diplomacy.

This is incorrect. Bluff, as it's implemented in DDO, is feint.

binnsr
10-01-2007, 09:36 AM
Bluff is not feint. Bluff should take no more time than Intimidate or Diplomacy.
Think of it this way:
Intimidate = flexing your muscles and hollering something about the mobs mom..
Diplomacy = tossing a bag of shineys on the ground so they don't pay attention to you
Bluff = convincing them you're not as bad as they think you are..

convincing takes time :D
that said, my rogue doesn't use either diplo or bluff -- bluff takes too long and diplo sheds agro onto your casters..
Bluff allows your next attack to be a sneak attack
Diplomacy drops agro and makes them seek out another target (and with todays AI, that means the arcanes and clerics)

parvo
10-01-2007, 09:48 AM
This is incorrect. Bluff, as it's implemented in DDO, is feint.

Saying "Your socks are untied" is not a feint. Yelling "It's the Goodyear blimp!" is not a feint. Nowhere have I seen Bluff reffered to as feint. Bluff is not feint. It needs to be tweaked just like Diplomacy and Intimidate.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 09:55 AM
Saying "Your socks are untied" is not a feint. Yelling "It's the Goodyear blimp!" is not a feint. Nowhere have I seen Bluff reffered to as feint. Bluff is not feint. It needs to be tweaked just like Diplomacy and Intimidate.

Perhaps you'd like to check the, I don't know, D&D rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint)


Feint

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) [ed. note: this also allows you to sneak attack the target]. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Feinting as a Move Action

With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.

Laith
10-01-2007, 09:59 AM
Perhaps you'd like to check the, I don't know, D&D rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint)you should also note that, in 3.0 PH at least, the feint action was only outlined in the Bluff skill description.

parvo
10-01-2007, 10:16 AM
Perhaps you'd like to check the, I don't know, D&D rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint)

Perhaps you should...oh...I don't know....maybe read the DDO description of Bluff from the DDO compendium?

Bluff
Allows you to bluff certain NPCs, or make monsters vulnerable to a sneak attack.

After all, the game we're playing is DDO.


While your at it, copy and paste the Intimidate and Diplomacy rules from D&D so we can compare that to DDO...

Mercules
10-01-2007, 10:25 AM
After all, the game we're playing is DDO.


Would that stand for Dungeon&Dragons:Online by any chance?:p

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 10:31 AM
Bluff
Allows you to bluff certain NPCs, or make monsters vulnerable to a sneak attack.

And that's exactly what feint does in D&D. (Plus a bit more about flat-footedness and no dex to AC, but DDO ignores AC adjustments like that.)

Mad_Bombardier
10-01-2007, 10:48 AM
Think of it this way:
Intimidate = flexing your muscles and hollering something about the mobs mom..
Diplomacy = tossing a bag of shineys on the ground so they don't pay attention to you
Bluff = convincing them you're not as bad as they think you are...Actually, you confused Diplo and Bluff. Bluff is /point "Your shoes are untied." Diplo is the song and dance routine.

Yes, if some skills are instant, all should be. I'm ok with ImpFeint (for sneak attacks) being a longer action because it is a combat feat and does more than the basic skill.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 10:50 AM
I'm ok with ImpFeint (for sneak attacks) being a longer action because it is a combat feat and does more than the basic skill.

Uh, what more does it do?

parvo
10-01-2007, 11:11 AM
Uh, what more does it do?

I believe Improved Feint is an attack itself. Pretty obvious what more it does.

Bluff should be instant. Still waiting for you to copy and paste the D&D rules for Intimidate and Dioplomacy so we can see how they work in DDO...

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 11:18 AM
Bluff should be instant.

"Bluffing" in combat in DDO is feinting according to the D&D rules. That's what it accomplishes, that's the source for what they've implemented, that's why it takes time.

Diplomacy and Intimidate have no in-combat uses in D&D, so they made some up. So they can do whatever they want with them.

They could make bluff instant if they wanted to also, but you want to know why it wasn't. The answer has been given.

parvo
10-01-2007, 11:23 AM
"Bluffing" in combat in DDO is feinting according to the D&D rules. That's what it accomplishes, that's the source for what they've implemented, that's why it takes time.

Diplomacy and Intimidate have no in-combat uses in D&D, so they made some up. So they can do whatever they want with them.

They could make bluff instant if they wanted to also, but you want to know why it wasn't. The answer has been given.

No more out of you until you make yourself useful and copy/paste the Intimidate and Diplomacy rules from D&D.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 11:25 AM
No more out of you until you make yourself useful and copy/paste the Intimidate and Diplomacy rules from D&D.

I'm sure you can find them at d20srd.org. :p

parvo
10-01-2007, 11:29 AM
"Bluffing" in combat in DDO is feinting according to the D&D rules. That's what it accomplishes, that's the source for what they've implemented, that's why it takes time.

Diplomacy and Intimidate have no in-combat uses in D&D, so they made some up. So they can do whatever they want with them.

They could make bluff instant if they wanted to also, but you want to know why it wasn't. The answer has been given.

Per the source you love and admire, Intimidate (in D&D) has the following in-combat use:

<<You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.>>

I'm telling Wizards of the Coast that their #1 fan gets a -1 on the weekly rules system test...

BTW, Diplomacy (in D&D) can turn a hostile creature (which includes attacking per the chart you should have memorized), into helpful.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 11:41 AM
I'm telling Wizards of the Coast that their #1 fan gets a -1 on the weekly rules system test...

I fail to see the relevance, or were you just trying to get in a personal attack?

parvo
10-01-2007, 12:39 PM
Bluff should be instant.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 01:13 PM
Bluff should be instant.

No it shouldn't.




Ooh, this game's fun.

ErgonomicCat
10-01-2007, 02:00 PM
Perhaps you should...oh...I don't know....maybe read the DDO description of Bluff from the DDO compendium?

Bluff
Allows you to bluff certain NPCs, or make monsters vulnerable to a sneak attack.

After all, the game we're playing is DDO.


While your at it, copy and paste the Intimidate and Diplomacy rules from D&D so we can compare that to DDO...

Relevant parts:


Action

Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check.

Initial Attitude New Attitude (DC to achieve)
Hostile Unfriendly Indifferent Friendly Helpful
Hostile < 20 20 25 35 50
Unfriendly < 5 5 15 25 40



That's why I said that diplomacy should be a full round action to start. DDO already ignores the "-10 for rushed checks" rule.

If you consider the -10 always included, then you're looking for a hostile to unfriendly check, which is a DC 30 check, regardless of the mob.

Intimidate's not really relevant, as it's kludging accepted MMO mechanics in to the DnD rules system as best they can. The closest equivalent would be the Knight's Challenge, from ... PHB2? Complete Warrior? That's not open content, so I can't post it up.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 02:07 PM
That's why I said that diplomacy should be a full round action to start. DDO already ignores the "-10 for rushed checks" rule.

If you consider the -10 always included, then you're looking for a hostile to unfriendly check, which is a DC 30 check, regardless of the mob.

Diplomacy isn't really implemented accurately either. D&D diplomacy doesn't just last a few seconds. So it's also, basically, a MMO kludge.

Which is why I said they can pretty much adjust those two kludges however they want.

parvo
10-01-2007, 02:50 PM
OK, let me get this argument straight. DDO's Intimidate skill isn't D&D Intimidate so it's OK that it's instant, and works great. Nevermind that Intimidate has the same size bonus/penalty as D&D. It's unrelated. DDO Diplomacy isn't D&D Diplomacy so it's OK that it is instant, AoE and allows rogue backstab on any mob he immediately attacks afterward. Feint doesn't exist in DDO but Bluff is Feint (they just didn't want to call it Feint) and it's OK to leave it completely useless because we are loosly following D&D Feint rules.

Of course none of the above makes any sense unless you just don't want Bluff to work in DDO.

Bluff needs to be tweaked just like Diplomacy and Intimidate were tweaked.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 03:29 PM
DDO Diplomacy ... rogue backstab on any mob he immediately attacks afterward.

Is this true? I was under the impression that Diplomacy didn't allow you to sneak attack. If it does, then it's a problem, whether Bluff is immediate or not.

Diplomacy and Intimidate should give you or your allies (respectively) a few seconds of breathing room, and nothing more.

Coldin
10-01-2007, 03:31 PM
Uh, what more does it do?

It bluffs more than one opponent in range, and can be used without a target.

It's also actually a tad quicker than regular bluff in my experience. Or at least has a shorter cooldown.

ErgonomicCat
10-01-2007, 03:35 PM
OK, let me get this argument straight. DDO's Intimidate skill isn't D&D Intimidate so it's OK that it's instant, and works great. Nevermind that Intimidate has the same size bonus/penalty as D&D. It's unrelated. DDO Diplomacy isn't D&D Diplomacy so it's OK that it is instant, AoE and allows rogue backstab on any mob he immediately attacks afterward. Feint doesn't exist in DDO but Bluff is Feint (they just didn't want to call it Feint) and it's OK to leave it completely useless because we are loosly following D&D Feint rules.

Of course none of the above makes any sense unless you just don't want Bluff to work in DDO.

Bluff needs to be tweaked just like Diplomacy and Intimidate were tweaked.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that Intimidate and Diplomacy should both have timers like Bluff, whereas you think Bluff should have no timer like Intim and Diplo.

Symar-FangofLloth
10-01-2007, 03:42 PM
Is this true? I was under the impression that Diplomacy didn't allow you to sneak attack. If it does, then it's a problem, whether Bluff is immediate or not.

Diplomacy and Intimidate should give you or your allies (respectively) a few seconds of breathing room, and nothing more.

Oh, diplomacy totally allows you to sneak attack, because the monsters are no longer targeting you. If that were not that case, I wonder if this conversation would come up.


And knights are from PHB2.

parvo
10-01-2007, 03:51 PM
Is this true? I was under the impression that Diplomacy didn't allow you to sneak attack. If it does, then it's a problem, whether Bluff is immediate or not.

Diplomacy and Intimidate should give you or your allies (respectively) a few seconds of breathing room, and nothing more.

Backstabs (or Sneak attacks as they are called now) are based only on aggro. If a mob is aggro'ed on someone else, you get backstab damage. Successful diplomacy, causes mobs to aggro on someone else, thus allowing the Rogue a backstab.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 03:54 PM
Oh, diplomacy totally allows you to sneak attack, because the monsters are no longer targeting you. If that were not that case, I wonder if this conversation would come up.

Weird, I could've sworn I tested this on my rogue and it wasn't working. I might've been solo though, that might affect things (i.e. no one else to aggro on).

Yeah, that's an issue then, but I still don't think instant-bluff is the right answer. (Diplomacy would still be better since it's AoE and gets things to stop attacking you.) They should remove this feature from diplomacy and make it so that you can't sneak attack things that you've diplo'd.

parvo
10-01-2007, 03:55 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that Intimidate and Diplomacy should both have timers like Bluff, whereas you think Bluff should have no timer like Intim and Diplo.

They used to have timers. Problem is, the melee attack speeds are so outrageous both skills were useless. Making them instant, made them viable.

parvo
10-01-2007, 04:00 PM
Weird, I could've sworn I tested this on my rogue and it wasn't working. I might've been solo though, that might affect things (i.e. no one else to aggro on).

Yeah, that's an issue then, but I still don't think instant-bluff is the right answer. (Diplomacy would still be better since it's AoE and gets things to stop attacking you.) They should remove this feature from diplomacy and make it so that you can't sneak attack things that you've diplo'd.

There is no justification for nerfing Diplomacy. It works fine as is. It's well balanced. For a Rogue, Bluff should essentially be the solo version of diplomacy.

DSL
10-01-2007, 04:35 PM
There is no justification for nerfing Diplomacy. It works fine as is. It's well balanced. For a Rogue, Bluff should essentially be the solo version of diplomacy.

What would be really useful is if Bluff made the MOB perform a full search, during which time it's aggro's on no one, unless it's attacked (or sneak attacked of course). This way, no one gets stuck with the Bluff-user's aggro, and theoretically, it might just allow a (presumably) rogue to hit sneak and get away (of course the target is doing an active search).

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 04:37 PM
For a Rogue, Bluff should essentially be the solo version of diplomacy.

But then what would be the point?

Why not just get diplomacy? When is a solo version of diplomacy better then the AoE version of diplomacy?

Symar-FangofLloth
10-01-2007, 04:40 PM
I think he means bluff should be a diplomacy that works while alone, so you don't need other targets for the monsters to attack.

Coldin
10-01-2007, 04:42 PM
But then what would be the point?

Why not just get diplomacy? When is a solo version of diplomacy better then the AoE version of diplomacy?

When you find yourself cut off from the group, and need to get in those precious sneak attacks to survive?

Eh, I like Improved Feint. I wouldn't object to it getting a little bit of a boost, but I'm happy with it as is.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 04:43 PM
I think he means bluff should be a diplomacy that works while alone, so you don't need other targets for the monsters to attack.

Oh. That makes more sense, I guess.

It still seems awfully like you have two skills doing pretty much the same thing.

Rickpa
10-01-2007, 04:52 PM
If Bluff is Feint, why is Bluff one of 3 class skills for sorcerers? What use is Feint to a caster?

I like the idea of making Bluff into Diplomacy for one. That would be most useful to my sorcerer.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 04:58 PM
If Bluff is Feint, why is Bluff one of 3 class skills for sorcerers? What use is Feint to a caster?

For the same reason Diplomacy is a Paladin class skill.

Because in D&D, these skills have other uses.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-01-2007, 04:59 PM
Honestly, the argument should be "Why are diplomacy and intimidate instant"?

It should be: Skill: Attack/Full round action. Feat: Move Action. 2nd feat: Instant action.

*points* "Hey! Look! A monkey!"

*handwave* "I'm not the mage you're looking for."

*Chest pound* "Hey! Look at me when I'm hitting you!"

ROTFL
You made my last hour of work fun...thx

parvo
10-01-2007, 05:06 PM
But then what would be the point?

Why not just get diplomacy? When is a solo version of diplomacy better then the AoE version of diplomacy?

Diplomacy doesn't work if there is no other party member near enough for the mobs to aggro on.

Ananvil
10-01-2007, 05:07 PM
If Bluff is Feint, why is Bluff one of 3 class skills for sorcerers? What use is Feint to a caster?

I like the idea of making Bluff into Diplomacy for one. That would be most useful to my sorcerer.

Because Sorcerers are charismatic liars. Many of the class skills in this game are taken directly from th D&D PHB and not for mechanical purposes in DDO

parvo
10-01-2007, 05:15 PM
I think he means bluff should be a diplomacy that works while alone, so you don't need other targets for the monsters to attack.

Diplomacy is currently used by Rogues as an instant AoE Bluff. You don't even need to target a mob. The drawback is you need another party member or summoned creature within close range. Bluff should also be instant but not require another party member.

If Bluff was really Feint, it might be useful, but it's not. Bluff is Bluff and it needs to be instant in order to be useful.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 07:06 PM
If Bluff was really Feint, it might be useful, but it's not. Bluff is Bluff and it needs to be instant in order to be useful.

Well yeah, there's that too. I'd rather they implemented the two alternative ACs (touch and flat-footed) and kept bluff the way it is.

Ziggy
10-01-2007, 07:56 PM
Eventually most of these skills will be pointlessly anyway. As characters become stronger in DDO they also become more efficient. Which leaves once useful tactics in the dust.
Being able to successfully bluff and re sneak attack any creature besides Red named bosses(RAID bosses) Has its benefits.

Ive built my rogue/paladin around the IF feat, hes a force.

Ziggy
10-01-2007, 07:59 PM
"Bluffing" in combat in DDO is feinting according to the D&D rules. That's what it accomplishes, that's the source for what they've implemented, that's why it takes time.

Diplomacy and Intimidate have no in-combat uses in D&D, so they made some up. So they can do whatever they want with them.

They could make bluff instant if they wanted to also, but you want to know why it wasn't. The answer has been given.
Actually IF doesnt have an attack roll. It has the same speed as an attack for activation though.(not sure if this is a bug).

However Bluff and IF are on seperate timers.:D

parvo
10-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Actually IF doesnt have an attack roll. It has the same speed as an attack for activation though.(not sure if this is a bug).

However Bluff and IF are on seperate timers.:D

Improved Feint is an attack though right? I haven't tried it yet. Maybe I will soon.

Tenkari_Rozahas
10-01-2007, 11:06 PM
*handwave* "I'm not the mage you're looking for."

Damn those Sneaky Jedi's coming and training mages.

Coldin
10-02-2007, 10:30 AM
Improved Feint is an attack though right? I haven't tried it yet. Maybe I will soon.

Improved Feint isn't an attack. It merely uses an attack animation instead of an emote when it makes the bluff check. Improved Feint will effect multiple foes though which is why I like it so much.

Invalid_86
10-03-2007, 01:03 AM
This is incorrect. Bluff, as it's implemented in DDO, is feint.


Odd. I didn't realize we were in effect feinting when we were getting the NPC in Delera's graveyard to let us into the last quest in the chain for free...

Mercules
10-03-2007, 07:42 AM
Odd. I didn't realize we were in effect feinting when we were getting the NPC in Delera's graveyard to let us into the last quest in the chain for free...

Did you click on your bluff icon to do that? :) No... it just unlocked another conversation option. Using the Bluff icon on your hot bar is implemented as a Feint thus why Improved Feint is called what it is. ;)

parvo
10-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Did you click on your bluff icon to do that? :) No... it just unlocked another conversation option. Using the Bluff icon on your hot bar is implemented as a Feint thus why Improved Feint is called what it is. ;)

I might believe that if DDO Bluff worked like D&D Feint, but it doesn't. In any case, it really doesn't matter. The current form of DDO Bluff is more useless than Intimidate and Diplomacy were before they were improved. There is no reasonable justification for leaving Bluff useless.

Ziggy
10-03-2007, 12:13 PM
Improved Feint is an attack though right? I haven't tried it yet. Maybe I will soon.
last i checked it doesnt actually register as an attack. All it does is swing your weapon.

So its quicker then the normal bluff.

parvo
10-12-2007, 04:56 PM
Did you click on your bluff icon to do that? :) No... it just unlocked another conversation option. Using the Bluff icon on your hot bar is implemented as a Feint thus why Improved Feint is called what it is. ;)

Bluff is not feint. If it was, it wouldn't be so bad.

MysticTheurge
10-12-2007, 09:36 PM
Bluff is not feint. If it was, it wouldn't be so bad.

In what ways is bluff different from feint that, were you to implement them, it would be good?

AC penalty? Cause that's the only one I can think of.

Why not petition for them to implement that instead of asking for bluff to be a poor man's diplomacy?

parvo
10-13-2007, 01:13 AM
In what ways is bluff different from feint that, were you to implement them, it would be good?

AC penalty? Cause that's the only one I can think of.

Why not petition for them to implement that instead of asking for bluff to be a poor man's diplomacy?

Honestly, I don't even care what the D&D rules are. They've been broken so many times in DDO. This is a game balance issue. Intimidate is instant. Diplomacy is instant. So too, should be Bluff. I'm not trying to give Turbine excuses for other broken stuff but unlike Feats and Spells, you can not respec skills. They need to work well and be fairly balanced.

I'm shooting more for solo'ers version of what Diplomacy does for Rogues, not poor man's version.

MysticTheurge
10-13-2007, 08:28 AM
Honestly, I don't even care what the D&D rules are. They've been broken so many times in DDO. This is a game balance issue. Intimidate is instant. Diplomacy is instant. So too, should be Bluff. I'm not trying to give Turbine excuses for other broken stuff but unlike Feats and Spells, you can not respec skills. They need to work well and be fairly balanced.

I'm shooting more for solo'ers version of what Diplomacy does for Rogues, not poor man's version.

Then stop saying that "bluff isn't feint" like it has anything to do with your point.

parvo
10-14-2007, 03:55 AM
Then stop saying that "bluff isn't feint" like it has anything to do with your point.

Stop saying it is like that has any bearing on the point.

Vormaerin
10-14-2007, 05:39 AM
Bluff has exactly two functions in DDO:

1) It allows you to alter, passively, one or more conversations in the game. Namely Delera's.

2) It can be actively used to process a feint.

Thus, as a practical matter Bluff's game function is to feint. The Delera conversation is 100% irrelevant to whether or not anyone would buy bluff, considering the target is so low that a cheaply bought item and/or Cha buffing is sufficient replacement. Anyone considering spending character points on Bluff is doing so entirely for the Feint application (or because "its cool" or "good roleplaying").

The only "problem" with Bluff as it is currently implemented is that Diplomacy is implemented in such a way that it generally supercedes it.... which it is not supposed to do. If diplomacy did not allow rogues to sneak attack, no one would have an issue with how Bluff currently works. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

I don't think that making bluff have the same speed as the other conversation skills will prove unbalancing.. it will make it a viable alternative to diplomacy, which has the disadvantage of shedding aggro to other squishies. As long as there is a cooldown on it so you can't permanently sneak attack the mob you are soloing without some sort of reduced attack rate.

Yeah, its breaking the skill rules worse but its the most sensible... and dev labor feasible... way to address the issue.

krud
12-10-2007, 08:58 PM
agree with parvo. I never really thought about it much when on my IF build, since I never used diplo or intimidate. Didn't know there was a difference. Call it feint, bluff, whatever you want, it still should be the same speed as the two other skills. If they sped up the other two, I see no reason not to do so with bluff. The cooldown timer on it keeps it from being overpowering. As it is now it is way too slow to use in combat. If it had a shorter action speed I would use it in tandem with IF.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-10-2007, 09:42 PM
agree with parvo. I never really thought about it much when on my IF build, since I never used diplo or intimidate. Didn't know there was a difference. Call it feint, bluff, whatever you want, it still should be the same speed as the two other skills. If they sped up the other two, I see no reason not to do so with bluff. The cooldown timer on it keeps it from being overpowering. As it is now it is way too slow to use in combat. If it had a shorter action speed I would use it in tandem with IF.

lol nice necro

Drekisen
12-10-2007, 10:50 PM
If ur in sneak mode and say there are two or more creatures, you can bluff one without breaking sneak, attack the another, get sneak attack damage on it, and also get sneak attack on the one that is bluffed if hit within the time allowed. When a creature is bluffed you get sneak attack whether it sees you or not and even if it's aggro'ed on you.
I have not been able to get the improved feint feat yet, but it may be possible to bluff as well as use feint to get off three sneak attacks, two additional after you break sneak from the first. Plus there is a slight dazed effect when hitting a monster. If ur fast enuff and have good to-hit, you sneak attack the first before it even knows you're there, leave it, attack and deafet the bluffed monster, and the first monster you hit will just be getting ready to make a strike.
One question I have about bluff tho is, I max my bluff on my Sorc's since it is a class skill plus they have a high CHA, if I bluff a creature will a rogue still get sneak attack damage on it. That would be kind of nice if your conserving mana and need something to do with a rogue in the party.

krud
12-11-2007, 08:04 AM
lol nice necro

Thanks. I was doing a search on Improved feint to see what the status was for the sneak attack bug. I'm still not getting sneak attack bonuses in some instances (I bug reported it). Couldn't find what I was looking for, but ran across this thread. Thought I'd add my 2coppers. Could be worse, I'm only 2 months late ;)

oronisi
12-11-2007, 09:22 AM
Honestly, the argument should be "Why are diplomacy and intimidate instant"?



Because they weren't used when they weren't instant. Now they are used MUCH more. Bluff for some reason did not get this upgrade/fix/whatever when Diplomacy and Intimidate did. I actually think this is bug-worthy as bluff is obviously in the same category as intimidate and diplomacy, and used to be the same in regards to action time and cooldown timer.

Taojeff
12-11-2007, 09:24 AM
Because they weren't used when they weren't instant. Now they are used MUCH more. Bluff for some reason did not get this upgrade/fix/whatever when Diplomacy and Intimidate did. I actually think this is bug-worthy as bluff is obviously in the same category as intimidate and diplomacy, and used to be the same in regards to action time and cooldown timer.

I agree

Laith
12-11-2007, 09:40 AM
Because they weren't used when they weren't instant. Now they are used MUCH more. Bluff for some reason did not get this upgrade/fix/whatever when Diplomacy and Intimidate did. I actually think this is bug-worthy as bluff is obviously in the same category as intimidate and diplomacy, and used to be the same in regards to action time and cooldown timer.
i'd agree also.

of course, when it comes down to it, i'm thinking Turbine lost an argument with WotC. Do you honestly think they overlooked bluff when they went to change diplomacy/intimidate? No, that's rediculous.

Either Turbine though an instant version of bluff/imp feint was too powerful, or (because PnP has Feint) WotC didn't want Bluff/Feint to divert from PnP.

MysticTheurge
12-11-2007, 09:59 AM
You know what. I know I argued against this for the majority of this thread, but I'm changing my mind.

Bluff should be instant by default with a decent cooldown timer (where the length of the bluff duration is no more than half the cooldown timer length), and improved feint should do something better like increase the duration/reduce the cooldown, make it AoE or simply give it a chance to proc on each attack.

krud
12-11-2007, 11:24 AM
You know what. I know I argued against this for the majority of this thread, but I'm changing my mind.

Bluff should be instant by default with a decent cooldown timer (where the length of the bluff duration is no more than half the cooldown timer length), and improved feint should do something better like increase the duration/reduce the cooldown, make it AoE or simply give it a chance to proc on each attack.

I have an IF ftr/rog. The cooldown timer on IF is already faster than bluff. The cooldown timers are fine as is. The only change that is needed is the bluff action. For IF it is simply one attack animation (with no attack roll). Either instant bluff or at a minumum something similar to IF is all that is needed. As far as IF, by AOE do you mean increased range? As it is now, it affects multiple creatures within melee range. Range only needs to increase slightly, if at all (i think it's fine as is). A longer duration on IF (2 more sec) would also help, but it's not as important either.

miceelf88
12-11-2007, 11:26 AM
If bluff is at least a move action, surely diplomacy would take a similar (or much longer!!) amount of time.

llevenbaxx
12-11-2007, 11:44 AM
Kinda glad it was necro'ed. Have some questions.:)

Speaking from a different balance point in speeding the bluff animation up, how would it be worth taking 2 feats to get IF? Sure it affects multiple mobs but how long does the vulnerable state last for each ability? Long enough to drop one mob and move to another before the duration ends? If not, then aside from an improved cool down how is bluff not way superior to IF at the cost of 2 feats. Havnt toyed with either too much and would really like to.

Would like to pick it up on my rog/ftr as I already have the prereq.

Thanks for any info.

Coldin
12-11-2007, 12:26 PM
Improved Feint already is AOE, though the range is very short. Only about 5 feet or so. Improved Feint also already benefits from a decreased cooldown and animation, though I suppose it could be quicker.

Frankly, since it does cost two feats to get, it should be a little more powerful. Especially since it's the only feat currently in the game that is exclusively for rogues and the only one that increases a rogue's ability to sneak attack, albeit in an indirect way.

Improved Feint in PnP allows a PC to make a foe flatfooted once a round and still make an attack. In DDO, it allows a rogue to make 1 sneak attack every ~30 seconds, but against a few different foes if they're within range. Perhaps, just to boost up the power of the feat since monsters have been boosted, change it to the "of deception" effect, allowing a rogue to make several sneak attacks against 1 opponent for the duration of the bluff. With the change though, it would have to go back to a non-AOE to keep things balanced, but I don't think many rogues would mind too much.

What do you guys think? Good? Bad?

Laith
12-11-2007, 01:05 PM
Frankly, since it does cost two feats to get, it should be a little more powerful.
Seeing as bluffed creatures turn around and do NOTHING, albiet for a short period of time, IF is quite powerful as a defensive application.

That's right: nothing. They turn around and stand patiently for a few moments. They don't hit someone else, they just stand there. Diplomacy wears off when you attack the affected, bluff doesn't.

Now that i remember this, i actually DO understand why they might be wary to make bluff & IF instant.

Just think about the power behind intimidate and a few rogues with IF timed properly.

Coldin
12-11-2007, 01:45 PM
Seeing as bluffed creatures turn around and do NOTHING, albiet for a short period of time, IF is quite powerful as a defensive application.

That's right: nothing. They turn around and stand patiently for a few moments. They don't hit someone else, they just stand there. Diplomacy wears off when you attack the affected, bluff doesn't.

Now that i remember this, i actually DO understand why bluff & IF aren't "instant".

Just think about the power behind intimidate and a few rogues with IF timed properly.

OCCASIONALLY, they turn around and do nothing. Also, OCCASIONALLY they run right away from you denying any chance to hit them with a sneak attack. It's like the AI thinks "Oh no, I'm bluffed. Quickly, run away so the rogue can't peg us with a sneak attack." An occasionally nothing changes at all with, they just keep attacking even though they've been successfully bluffed. Dimplomacy lasts much longer than bluff too. It lasts for at least a good 30 seconds(rough guess here) while bluff only lasts several seconds.

Also, Bluff and Improved Feint have the exact same results besides the few difference mentioned above. I'm saying improved feint should be a little more effective since it's costing a feat (or two) where bluff is free.

Laith
12-11-2007, 01:48 PM
Dimplomacy lasts much longer than bluff too. It lasts for at least a good 30 seconds(rough guess here) while bluff only lasts several seconds.6-8 seconds if i recall. It's the mirror of intimidate, except that if you attack the creature, diplomacy is removed prematurely. heck, even the roll required for success is the same.


OCCASIONALLY, they turn around and do nothing. Also, OCCASIONALLY they run right away from you denying any chance to hit them with a sneak attack.I would count running around without a target and not accomplishing any real effect against your party as a GREAT benefit. Especially when applied as an AoE. Far better than the allowance of a single sneak attack.

In effect, you remove a creature from the fight for a short period of time... except for the fact that you and your party get to beat the snot out of it still.

Improved Feint is effectively intimidate on crack if you think about it. Of course, it's nearly instant as is.

llevenbaxx
12-11-2007, 02:29 PM
Improved feint really shouldnt stop a mob from attacking or make them run away, thats not what a feint would do. It should simply deny a mob(or apparently in DDO mobs) their dex bonus allowing a SA. I think the ability would be junk if it didnt have a constant, predictable affect. It takes the mob out of the fight? Thats exactly what I want, to chase more mobs around swinging at air.:rolleyes:

I kinda like the suggestion of making a single mob "flatfooted" for an equivalent round. Seems like a justifiable reason of taking the feat(which also requires a skill) in DDOs inflated setting.

Laith
12-11-2007, 02:34 PM
I kinda like the suggestion of making a single mob "flatfooted" for an equivalent round. Seems like a justifiable reason of taking the feat(which also requires a skill) in DDOs inflated setting.
Was just illustrating what it currently does, though i agree with you as to what bluff SHOULD do.

In PnP, you only get one sneak attack per round, so imp feint means you can get that (at the cost of only having a single attack action in your turn remaining). Bluff means you get a SA every other round, but miss an attack action.
In DDO, Bluff could be instant targetted with only one SA. IF could be instant AoE with a full round of SA.

Neither should be making creatures miss their actions, or run around aimlessly.

krud
12-11-2007, 02:41 PM
bluff: range ~20ft, single target, ~2 second activation, 10 second cooldown, duration 2 sec
improved feint: range melee (~5ft), multiple targets, one attack animation (<1sec), 8 sec cooldown, duration 2sec.

I'm not sure much needs to be done with either except for increasing the speed of the bluff action. Bluff certainly won't be overpowering by any means if it's speeded up. If it's made instant then the cooldown can always be increased. It's very hard to continuously keep creatures bluffed, since each subsequent bluff gets harder and harder to land. After about three attempts the mobs just aren't fooled anymore. The 2 second duration is just enough to land 2 attacks if you are lucky.

The best use for me is when standing in the middle of a bunch of mobs. IF allows me to temporarily distract the others while I focus on one. On a single target it's better me for to just keep swinging, instead of wasting an attack on the feint. For higher level rogues who get a majority of damage from sneak attack this may not be the case.

krud
12-11-2007, 02:47 PM
Neither should be making creatures miss their actions, or run around aimlessly.
This has to do with coding. Apparently, in order to allow for a sneak attack the computer tells the mob to loose aggro, however bluff doesn't cause them to switch aggro, so they temporarily turn around until they re-aggro. It seems to fall in line with what a feint or bluff is supposed to do.

llevenbaxx
12-11-2007, 02:53 PM
bluff: range ~20ft, single target, ~2 second activation, 10 second cooldown, duration 2 sec
improved feint: range melee (~5ft), multiple targets, one attack animation (<1sec), 8 sec cooldown, duration 2sec.

I'm not sure much needs to be done with either except for increasing the speed of the bluff action. Bluff certainly won't be overpowering by any means if it's speeded up. If it's made instant then the cooldown can always be increased. It's very hard to continuously keep creatures bluffed, since each subsequent bluff gets harder and harder to land. After about three attempts the mobs just aren't fooled anymore. The 2 second duration is just enough to land 2 attacks if you are lucky.

The best use for me is when standing in the middle of a bunch of mobs. IF allows me to temporarily distract the others while I focus on one. On a single target it's better me for to just keep swinging, instead of wasting an attack on the feint. For higher level rogues who get a majority of damage from sneak attack this may not be the case.

When you say one attack animation, is that one single swing? Or like a full round attack?

If you speed up the animation, bluff is every bit as good as imp feint if not better because of the range. It doesnt really matter how many mobs are bluffed becasue you arent going to have a chance to hit them anyway. The fast activation is the only reason imp feint is even remotely justifiably worth a feat. If you make bluff the same activation, how is it not better than the feat?

llevenbaxx
12-11-2007, 02:55 PM
This has to do with coding. Apparently, in order to allow for a sneak attack the computer tells the mob to loose aggro, however bluff doesn't cause them to switch aggro, so they temporarily turn around until they re-aggro. It seems to fall in line with what a feint or bluff is supposed to do.

From a coding standpoint I guess, nothing else really though.

krud
12-11-2007, 03:38 PM
When you say one attack animation, is that one single swing? Or like a full round attack?
one swing

If you speed up the animation, bluff is every bit as good as imp feint if not better because of the range. It doesnt really matter how many mobs are bluffed becasue you arent going to have a chance to hit them anyway. The fast activation is the only reason imp feint is even remotely justifiably worth a feat. If you make bluff the same activation, how is it not better than the feat?

Faster cooldown, and bluffing multiple mobs is a big deal when surrounded. That can be 3,6 or even more mobs not taking a swing at you or anyone else for 2 seconds. As I said, they can always have a longer cooldown for bluff if necessary.


From a coding standpoint I guess, nothing else really though.
why? you throw a feint, you confuse your opponent, they can't attack effectively. It only last 2 seconds, and it's not like they turn around and run as if feared. Usually they just stand in place, or turn around for those 2 seconds. Flatfooted? loose dex bonus? BFD. Those may be a big deal in PnP, but are rather useless in DDO.

As far as IF requiring two feats; at least it's nothing like SA or SOTR where you need a barely used feat like mobility to get it. The prereq, combat expertise, can stand on it's own. It's not like CE is useless if you don't follow up and take IF. Kinda like complaining that you have to take weapon focus as a prereq for gr weapon focus. If you have no plans on using CE, however, I see no point in taking it just to get IF.

MysticRhythms
12-21-2007, 01:07 PM
I'm in the "make Bluff instant" camp. It's useful but should be faster.

I have yet to try Improved Feint but I'm working on getting it.

Coldin
12-21-2007, 01:15 PM
Hey, the thread came back!

Either bluff/improved feint should be made faster, or it should allow multiple sneak attacks per bluff.

MysticRhythms
12-21-2007, 01:18 PM
Hey, the thread came back!

I did a search on Improved Feint becaue I am considering retraining into it, so blame me. It was only gone for ten days though. :)

I wonder how much rogues put into bluff and diplomacy since the changes ...

Largo_Kyber
12-21-2007, 02:34 PM
I thought I had a good understanding of these skills before I began reading this thread. Now I just have a headache.

Just leave bluff as is. Fix the gimped rogues and they won't need bluff.

Vizzini
12-21-2007, 03:07 PM
To be completely honest I have to agree with the OP, While technically Bluff should take time - I think it's incredibly useless for it to take as long as it does. Turbine doesn't exactly match the mechanics of this game to meet that of 3.5 D&D.

With all the zerging done in quests I find using bluff to be pointless, because by the time I bluff them they are already dead :x To really make this a useful ability to use - IT HAS TO BE IMMEDIATE - (or used only while soloing). Rogues get little love in this game anyway, I really wouldn't see the problem giving them an instant Bluff.

parvo
12-21-2007, 05:29 PM
If ur in sneak mode and say there are two or more creatures, you can bluff one without breaking sneak, attack the another, get sneak attack damage on it, and also get sneak attack on the one that is bluffed if hit within the time allowed. When a creature is bluffed you get sneak attack whether it sees you or not and even if it's aggro'ed on you.
I have not been able to get the improved feint feat yet, but it may be possible to bluff as well as use feint to get off three sneak attacks, two additional after you break sneak from the first. Plus there is a slight dazed effect when hitting a monster. If ur fast enuff and have good to-hit, you sneak attack the first before it even knows you're there, leave it, attack and deafet the bluffed monster, and the first monster you hit will just be getting ready to make a strike.
One question I have about bluff tho is, I max my bluff on my Sorc's since it is a class skill plus they have a high CHA, if I bluff a creature will a rogue still get sneak attack damage on it. That would be kind of nice if your conserving mana and need something to do with a rogue in the party.

Sap would be a really good feat for what you are describing, but it's messed up too. The sap feat is instantly broken by weapons with an effect. So you sap them but they don't really sap unless you have a weapon with no effects. And most rogues need weapons with effects to get any kind of decent damage while solo....combined with poor bluff, and Way of the Assasin implementation a Rogue is the most group dependant class in the game. A sad state of affairs for what is supposed to be the most versatile class.

parvo
12-21-2007, 05:34 PM
i'd agree also.

of course, when it comes down to it, i'm thinking Turbine lost an argument with WotC. Do you honestly think they overlooked bluff when they went to change diplomacy/intimidate? No, that's rediculous.

Either Turbine though an instant version of bluff/imp feint was too powerful, or (because PnP has Feint) WotC didn't want Bluff/Feint to divert from PnP.

You're kidding right?

dragnmoon
12-21-2007, 05:36 PM
You're kidding right?

though I doubt he is right.. WotC has made them change things in the game in the past...

parvo
12-21-2007, 05:36 PM
You know what. I know I argued against this for the majority of this thread, but I'm changing my mind.

Bluff should be instant by default with a decent cooldown timer (where the length of the bluff duration is no more than half the cooldown timer length), and improved feint should do something better like increase the duration/reduce the cooldown, make it AoE or simply give it a chance to proc on each attack.

Oh yea! Well I'm changing my mind than! I hereby renounce all my arguments and embrace all your old arguments as my own ;)

parvo
12-21-2007, 05:41 PM
Seeing as bluffed creatures turn around and do NOTHING, albiet for a short period of time, IF is quite powerful as a defensive application.

That's right: nothing. They turn around and stand patiently for a few moments. They don't hit someone else, they just stand there. Diplomacy wears off when you attack the affected, bluff doesn't.

Now that i remember this, i actually DO understand why they might be wary to make bluff & IF instant.

Just think about the power behind intimidate and a few rogues with IF timed properly.


Yea, because Turbine has been so cautious not to overpower the players...

parvo
12-21-2007, 05:47 PM
bluff: range ~20ft, single target, ~2 second activation, 10 second cooldown, duration 2 sec
improved feint: range melee (~5ft), multiple targets, one attack animation (<1sec), 8 sec cooldown, duration 2sec.

I'm not sure much needs to be done with either except for increasing the speed of the bluff action. Bluff certainly won't be overpowering by any means if it's speeded up. If it's made instant then the cooldown can always be increased. It's very hard to continuously keep creatures bluffed, since each subsequent bluff gets harder and harder to land. After about three attempts the mobs just aren't fooled anymore. The 2 second duration is just enough to land 2 attacks if you are lucky.

The best use for me is when standing in the middle of a bunch of mobs. IF allows me to temporarily distract the others while I focus on one. On a single target it's better me for to just keep swinging, instead of wasting an attack on the feint. For higher level rogues who get a majority of damage from sneak attack this may not be the case.

After much practice, I've also realized Bluff has better range. A good thing. But it's very tough to keep facing the mob throughout the action. Lots of mobs will run up to you then sidestep, and you'll get the "You must be facing the squirly bastard" error message.

Hafeal
12-21-2007, 05:47 PM
... I don't want to re-read the thread. I think bluff should be instant as well, based upon how the game is played.

Why does bluff work only on 1 creature at a time though?

Shouldn't it at least have a chance to work on all creatures within your vision? :confused:

You know I think of all the silly hollywood movies where the hero does something funny and all the bad guys freeze for a moment ...

parvo
12-21-2007, 05:51 PM
though I doubt he is right.. WotC has made them change things in the game in the past...

That's not the part that's laughable...

Coldin
12-21-2007, 06:35 PM
... I don't want to re-read the thread. I think bluff should be instant as well, based upon how the game is played.

Why does bluff work only on 1 creature at a time though?

Shouldn't it at least have a chance to work on all creatures within your vision? :confused:

You know I think of all the silly hollywood movies where the hero does something funny and all the bad guys freeze for a moment ...

That's sort of how Improved Feint performs. It's an AOE effect that makes a bluff check against everyone within melee range.

parvo
12-26-2007, 07:08 AM
bluff: range ~20ft, single target, ~2 second activation, 10 second cooldown, duration 2 sec
improved feint: range melee (~5ft), multiple targets, one attack animation (<1sec), 8 sec cooldown, duration 2sec.

I'm not sure much needs to be done with either except for increasing the speed of the bluff action. Bluff certainly won't be overpowering by any means if it's speeded up. If it's made instant then the cooldown can always be increased. It's very hard to continuously keep creatures bluffed, since each subsequent bluff gets harder and harder to land. After about three attempts the mobs just aren't fooled anymore. The 2 second duration is just enough to land 2 attacks if you are lucky.

The best use for me is when standing in the middle of a bunch of mobs. IF allows me to temporarily distract the others while I focus on one. On a single target it's better me for to just keep swinging, instead of wasting an attack on the feint. For higher level rogues who get a majority of damage from sneak attack this may not be the case.


Actually, Bluff has at least 40ft range. I've never been able to get more than one sneak attack on a bluffed target. I think the first sneak attack on bluffed target breaks the bluff.

Laith
12-26-2007, 09:01 AM
That's not the part that's laughable...heh, i was just posing two possible reasons as to why diplo/intimidate got changed to instant, but bluff got left in the dust.

As much as you might disagree, it is quite possible that the devs thought that giving players access to instant sneak-attacks on 2 seperate timers was too powerful.

IF would have to be instant if bluff was. intim & diplo have no means of ~doubling their uses with a second timer.

At the basest level, it DOES seem more powerful than it'd probably end up being. Who knows, maybe they playtested instant bluff/IF along with diplo/intim.

parvo
12-26-2007, 09:51 AM
heh, i was just posing two possible reasons as to why diplo/intimidate got changed to instant, but bluff got left in the dust.

As much as you might disagree, it is quite possible that the devs thought that giving players access to instant sneak-attacks on 2 seperate timers was too powerful.

IF would have to be instant if bluff was. intim & diplo have no means of ~doubling their uses with a second timer.

At the basest level, it DOES seem more powerful than it'd probably end up being. Who knows, maybe they playtested instant bluff/IF along with diplo/intim.

Playtest? Again you jest...

MysticRhythms
12-26-2007, 10:21 AM
Parvo - why not mention this issue in Codog's thread? It might be more productive there.

Laith
12-26-2007, 10:25 AM
Playtest? Again you jest...sigh. my fault, didn't realize we weren't actually serious about discussing this issue. i'll be moving along now.

parvo
12-26-2007, 11:26 AM
...Do you honestly think they overlooked bluff when they went to change diplomacy/intimidate? No, that's rediculous...

Hey...you're the one that started joking around here.

krud
12-26-2007, 01:01 PM
Actually, Bluff has at least 40ft range. I've never been able to get more than one sneak attack on a bluffed target. I think the first sneak attack on bluffed target breaks the bluff.

on 2 separate targets when using IF it is possible, however not with bluff on a single target. You are correct, the way aggro management works it's currently not possible to get multiple sneak attacks on the same target.

I do think if bluff is made instant, or at least the same as IF (one swing), it's cooldown needs to be made a little longer. Maybe, include the 2 seconds it currently takes to make the bluff into the cooldown timer (total cooldown of 12 sec instead of 10). An instant bluff (using the current 10 sec cooldown timer) combined with IF might be a little too much.

parvo
12-26-2007, 02:31 PM
on 2 separate targets when using IF it is possible, however not with bluff on a single target. You are correct, the way aggro management works it's currently not possible to get multiple sneak attacks on the same target.

I do think if bluff is made instant, or at least the same as IF (one swing), it's cooldown needs to be made a little longer. Maybe, include the 2 seconds it currently takes to make the bluff into the cooldown timer (total cooldown of 12 sec instead of 10). An instant bluff (using the current 10 sec cooldown timer) combined with IF might be a little too much.

I think everyone would be Ok with that. I don't want to increase the frequency of my bluff I just want it to be worth something. The way it's implemented now just doesn't make sense. You give up multiple attacks (what is it about two to six depending on level?) for one chance at a sneak attack. During your bluff, the mob is still attacking you and chances are the mob is going to sidestep away from your forward facing anyway. Why do I even have to target a mob? Diplomacy and Intimidate you don't have to.

Bluff should be implemented in a way that it improves the Rogues chances when he's not grouped. It sucks that pure Rogues are the most group dependent class in the game. It's so unroguely. Fix bluff. Fix Way of the Assasin. Fix Sap feat.

parvo
12-26-2007, 02:52 PM
Parvo - why not mention this issue in Codog's thread? It might be more productive there.

Codog just wanted a better name for the thread he normally responds in. Can't blame him for getting tired of the old one. I don't know how they prioritize but the devs know bluff is useless. Eladrin knows its useless, or he'd come and tell us otherwise. The only feedback I've been given from the devs to help make something a priority is to remain respectful while describing the issue.

Cambo
01-08-2008, 09:54 PM
Sneak attack is way underpowered and therefore all associated skills are too.

1 free sneak attack would be fine for say a level 11 rogure (6d6) against a 11HD creature could take out 30% of its hit points in 1 swing. As it is its more like 5% due to the inflation of HP.

Improved Feint should give you a minimum full round of sneak attack damage as it costs a lot more (2 feats and a skill ?) than for example Rangers many shot and is no where near as effective in dealing damage..(comparing with other class feats...and ranges claim bows are under powered)

Taojeff
01-08-2008, 10:01 PM
Sneak attack is way underpowered and therefore all associated skills are too.

1 free sneak attack would be fine for say a level 11 rogure (6d6) against a 11HD creature could take out 30% of its hit points in 1 swing. As it is its more like 5% due to the inflation of HP.

Improved Feint should give you a minimum full round of sneak attack damage as it costs a lot more (2 feats and a skill ?) than for example Rangers many shot and is no where near as effective in dealing damage..(comparing with other class feats...and ranges claim bows are under powered)

I would like to see the math or maybe a video as an example of the creature hitpoints. I do not have any pure class rogues. I have mixes of 8/6 10/4/2 etc. 6 levels is the most I have ever taken in rogue. What I do see for my melee characters is well something I want to congratulate the devs on....for melee anyway.

At just about every level my melee characters can take down most mobs with the same number of hits. From waterworks to gianthold. This holds true for all monsters, saved named, and the overpowered shadows and weeps. Just about everything else seems to work as intended. Which really is quite an accomplishment. For melee fighters anyway, Turbine has managed to extend the sweet spot for just about the entire level range.

Oops, sorry was not trying to hijack your thread. I just realized the sweet spot thing for melee and thought it was kind of neat.

Coldin
01-09-2008, 12:53 AM
Well, I can affirm Cambo's observations on sneak attack. One good sneak attack pretty much only knocks down a level appropriate monster about 5&#37;, maybe up to 10% with a fully tricked out damage rogue. Most rogues aren't as strong as your average fighter, and certainly don't have the attack and damage feats or enhancements to have consistent high DPS. Therefore they use sneak attacks heavily to offset this. In PnP, this works well, because a few good sneak attack, and pretty much any monster is dead. But in DDO, it takes a vast amount of hits to fell a foe.

Deception weapons help a little, but those are random how often they work. Sometimes they work a lot and right away, and taking down mobs is easy. But then they don't work at all, and you'll quickly find yourself in a tight situation.

Now, Bluff, which requires a decent investment in skill points to even work reliably only allows one sneak attack. Then you must wait for it to cooldown. And being a skill that takes time to activate, there is a chance that a monster will move out of range, move out of it's radius, or kill you before you can use it. One gives up at least a couple attacks just to get in one super attack.

Improved Feint is slightly better, as it probably only takes away 1 attack to use and is an AOE. But it still only gives one sneak attack, and it costs a feat to use (2 if you count Combat Expertise). For something that requires a feat, is the second feat in a chain, and requires a 13, it should be a bit more potent. I really don't think it that absurd to ask for 6 seconds worth of sneak attacks. A longer cooldown possibly to offset it would be fine for me actually, because it would still allow a rogue to really shine for that round as he plows down a monster.

Edit: I'll try to get some screenshots of health bars after sneak attacking. I might have to trick some guildies to help me with it though.

Cambo
01-09-2008, 03:17 AM
Thanks for the support Coldin, I know I'm not the only one that struggles sometimes taking down 1 MOB let alone several due to the poor damage output vs HP and the innefectivenes of sneak attack as a significant blow to a monster

I agree with Tao that the devs have managed to scale the monsters fairly well for the standard Melee type damage, but due to the Monty Haul +1 flaming puregood weapons from lvl 4-6 and upt to 24 str at lvl 6 (buffed) things that many PnP level 10's wouldnt achieve/have the Dev's have had to boost mob HP...but failure to improve sneak attack by the same level leaves the rogue class lacking in what has trationally (PnP again) been an area of strength (ie the quick and surprise take down of 1 monster) there still in trouble if there are others around ;)

I hear many rangers complaining about bow ROF but they have the compensation of gaining both TWF and BOW ranger feat lines...Rogues dont get compensation for thier gimped sneak attack...and many of thier strengths are not used as part of DDO (pickpocket etc)...frankly the rogue specialities did little to improve a rogues lot.

This is a much more pressing issue and could give rogues a better place i the game...

NB: there are some very good rogue builds and if played with a strong group you can get sneak attack all the time but solo and in many Pugs it is hard to be advantageous for the group over other classes or a ranger with a splash of rogue..

Perhaps with the big increase in damage in mod 6 on elite traps there may be a new need to look for a rogue again not begrudginly allow them to join.

Hvymetal
01-09-2008, 04:39 AM
But wait, we can boost sneak attack damage, by what? 4 points :rolleyes:

llevenbaxx
01-09-2008, 08:00 AM
Sneak attack is way underpowered and therefore all associated skills are too.

1 free sneak attack would be fine for say a level 11 rogure (6d6) against a 11HD creature could take out 30&#37; of its hit points in 1 swing. As it is its more like 5% due to the inflation of HP.

Improved Feint should give you a minimum full round of sneak attack damage as it costs a lot more (2 feats and a skill ?) than for example Rangers many shot and is no where near as effective in dealing damage..(comparing with other class feats...and ranges claim bows are under powered)

Yeah this is what I was thinking too. A full round of sneak attacks would definitely justify IF for me, a little longer cool down wouldnt kill me either. I find they make a good one-two punch when you find yourself one on one. I love having hotkeys to use too.:)

This thread actually convinced me to make a bluff/feint rogue(currently rog6/ftr1/wiz1). Bluff, I find to be good enough for the next to no investment it takes to be affective(wouldnt complain if they made it faster though;)). It seems to me to be best when used at the start of combat, when there is still a little distance between you and the mod. Having them hotkeyed helps a ton though in making sure I frequently use them.

IF is largely useless(underpowered prolly a better word) in its current form imo, especially when compared to what diplomacy does(for the cost). So far, I would say only the duration of the vulnerable state needs to be looked at. A small adjustment there would really go a long way imho. One attack is just NOT enough in this game for the investment, at least imo.

A possible reason for the short duration became apparent to me also. Traveling once in a group with two other rogues(amzing I know:)), having them also getting SA for a full round and possibly cycling their IFs could potentially kick out some very high DPS. The amount of coordination this would take, paired with the fact I hardly ever see groups with multiple rogues kinda convinced me this would be a non-issue though.

binnsr
01-09-2008, 08:11 AM
That right there is precisely the reason why my bluff is a pair of weakening of enfeebling weapons. Since I have managed to acquire a decent AC (49 self buffed and TWF) and over 200 hp, I'll have them 'perma-bluffed' :D before they can wear me down.

Taojeff
01-09-2008, 08:27 AM
Yeah this is what I was thinking too. A full round of sneak attacks would definitely justify IF for me, a little longer cool down wouldnt kill me either. I find they make a good one-two punch when you find yourself one on one. I love having hotkeys to use too.:)

This thread actually convinced me to make a bluff/feint rogue(currently rog6/ftr1/wiz1). Bluff, I find to be good enough for the next to no investment it takes to be affective(wouldnt complain if they made it faster though;)). It seems to me to be best when used at the start of combat, when there is still a little distance between you and the mod. Having them hotkeyed helps a ton though in making sure I frequently use them.

IF is largely useless(underpowered prolly a better word) in its current form imo, especially when compared to what diplomacy does(for the cost). So far, I would say only the duration of the vulnerable state needs to be looked at. A small adjustment there would really go a long way imho. One attack is just NOT enough in this game for the investment, at least imo.

A possible reason for the short duration became apparent to me also. Traveling once in a group with two other rogues(amzing I know:)), having them also getting SA for a full round and possibly cycling their IFs could potentially kick out some very high DPS. The amount of coordination this would take, paired with the fact I hardly ever see groups with multiple rogues kinda convinced me this would be a non-issue though.

Yeah, but at that point, people might realize its powerful and like flies to honey.... you would see tons of rogues etc. Best to balance it from the get go instead of having to re-balance it later. Yeah, but it definitely needs to be longer. Maybe a couple seconds.

Or if you wanna make it like rangers many shot. Where it last for a while then has a really long cool down.

krud
01-09-2008, 08:52 AM
That right there is precisely the reason why my bluff is a pair of weakening of enfeebling weapons. Since I have managed to acquire a decent AC (49 self buffed and TWF) and over 200 hp, I'll have them 'perma-bluffed' :D before they can wear me down.
My 7ftr/7rog went with IF and initially used enfeebling weapons. Enfeebling kept the amount of damage I took really low thru the mid levels. Not so much anymore. ImpFeint does work well when you get isolated in a group of mobs, however, there still is an issue with sneak attack not applying on crits by puncturing weapons (and i suspect enfeeble too). I've bug reported it.

Even with an instant bluff I don't think cycling bluff and IF is going to be too overpowering. At most it would amount to a sneak attack every other round. A slightly longer cooldown on bluff would alleviate fears of perma-bluffed mobs. However, the main reason I'd advocate a longer cooldown on the instant bluff is to keep Improved feint as a worthwhile upgrade. Instead of increasing the duration of bluff, what I really think needs to be done is to code bluff so that it is decoupled from the aggro mechanism for those 2 seconds (not sure if that is an easy thing to do). The creatures then would not re-aggro as soon as you hit them. A two second bluff is plenty of time to score a couple of sneak attacks.

Cambo
01-09-2008, 09:30 AM
Yeah, but at that point, people might realize its powerful and like flies to honey.... you would see tons of rogues etc. Best to balance it from the get go instead of having to re-balance it later. Yeah, but it definitely needs to be longer. Maybe a couple seconds.

Or if you wanna make it like rangers many shot. Where it last for a while then has a really long cool down.


I dont think it would be to powerful to give it 1 full roud of attacks at sneak...

Rogues dont get many feats. therfore it is hard to fit in 2 feats without sacriicing or multiclassing fighter
if you multiclass fighter you will reduce your sneak atack or have as high a bluff skill typically.
So you wont see many doing it succesfully.

an idea for implementation...Perhaps IF could give you free attacks until the mob saves against your bluff (it gets +3 cumulative each attack) so you might get 1 attack or 3...

I

llevenbaxx
01-09-2008, 09:46 AM
an idea for implementation...Perhaps IF could give you free attacks until the mob saves against your bluff (it gets +3 cumulative each attack) so you might get 1 attack or 3...

I

I would go for that. Im all about trying to make my character concepts work, one attack imo, is not going to be enough to make a difference in the level 11+ content, where hps start to get crazy. Not the way it is designed but I think IF is in need of the DDO make over.

If anything, it will turn into a cycle of bluff(first contact) attack, imp feint, attack(see the mob still has 4/5ths hps) diplo on to a friendly mage.;) Not what I was going for as my combat stategy but...:rolleyes::D

...meanwhile the ftr/barb just took out the other 5.:) no im not seeing any balance issues here, you have to invest feats & skill points, you have to take time out of attacking to initiate. I was under the assumption it was more for flavor than the "im gonna pwn you affect". I can see it being mildly affective but counldnt be further from overpowered.:)

Zuldar
01-09-2008, 10:00 AM
As it is bluff does have two uses.

You can use it to bluff certain npcs, such as the assassin in Delera's tomb to prevent having to pay the cash.
Or you can use it to perform a feint action in combat.

Seeing as some classes have a feature to make feinting in combat a move action (a swift action combined with improved feint), I wouldn't mind seeing rogues get an enhancement (likely in mod 7) that acts as that class feature.

This way it could work with say a 6 second cooldown (hence a swift action) that takes no time to perform, aka diplomacy and intimidate.

While we're at it, performing a feint in combat should apply a small penalty to the targets ac to "simulate" the loss of ac from being flat-footed, until they actually implement touch ac's and flat-footed ac's anyway.

krud
01-09-2008, 10:02 AM
an idea for implementation...Perhaps IF could give you free attacks until the mob saves against your bluff (it gets +3 cumulative each attack) so you might get 1 attack or 3...

my ftr/rog would benefit greatly from something like that. Combined with Whirlwind or cleave/great cleave and i'd be awesome. ;)

Coldin
01-09-2008, 11:48 AM
Here's something I've been thinking about using Improved Feint.

Let's for argument's sake, say that in both DDO and PnP you give up a full round of attacks to make 1 sneak attack. At level 15, this will be 3 attacks in PnP, 4 attacks in DDO for a pure rogue. A rogue at 15th level will do +8d6 sneak attack damage. For comparison sake, let's say that this rogue has a +3 flaming rapier and a 14 Str. That's 5 + 1d6 + 1d6 damage. Lets just count d6s though. So that's 2d6 points of damage per attack. So the PnP rogue will do 6d6 damage during a full round. The DDO rogue will do 8d6 damage. Now, if they both have Improved Fient, the PnP rogue will do 10d6 damage, the DDO rogue will do 10d6 damage. The PnP rogue sees a +4d6 gain, while the DDO rogue only sees half that much.

Also, consider that in PnP, you make your most accurate attack on the first attack, but in DDO, you don't get your best attack until the last. That means that while in PnP you'll most likely hit with the sneak attack, in DDO you have a greater chance of missing than if you attacked the full round. To further throw off the balance, DDO weapons are much more potent with higher pluses and more status effects than level appropriate PnP weapons. That means those lost attacks are costing a rogue even more damage per round. Now, DDO does give some benefit back with backstabbing weapons, and sneak attack boosting enhancements, but those only see a sneak attack damage increase of +9 at best. Those don't make a big difference until multiple sneak attacks are being made within short succession.

You add all this in with the overpowered DDO mobs, and a DDO rogue really feels weak compared to it's PnP brethren.

Taojeff
01-09-2008, 12:09 PM
I dont think it would be to powerful to give it 1 full roud of attacks at sneak...

Rogues dont get many feats. therfore it is hard to fit in 2 feats without sacriicing or multiclassing fighter
if you multiclass fighter you will reduce your sneak atack or have as high a bluff skill typically.
So you wont see many doing it succesfully.

an idea for implementation...Perhaps IF could give you free attacks until the mob saves against your bluff (it gets +3 cumulative each attack) so you might get 1 attack or 3...

I

Yeah, that might work, cept bluff will prob be so high there will never be mobs saving. Like what will happen when Bard Song gets a save.

Cambo
01-09-2008, 05:31 PM
Yeah, that might work, cept bluff will prob be so high there will never be mobs saving. Like what will happen when Bard Song gets a save.

What do you mean when Bard song gets a save............Nooooooooooooooooo
I will have to recreate my battle bard with higher charisma ;) ..hrm there goes the whole dwarf thing then...lol

Yeah but your right on the high save thing...Perhaps mobs should only get +1 DC bonus per attack cumulative on successive attacks ;) I guess a intel check would do it....keep the saves low as most mobs dont have high intel (??)

EDIT: Oops read Tao post it that all the mobs would save...guess above works if they dont ;)

parvo
01-14-2008, 11:01 PM
I dont think it would be to powerful to give it 1 full roud of attacks at sneak...

Rogues dont get many feats. therfore it is hard to fit in 2 feats without sacriicing or multiclassing fighter
if you multiclass fighter you will reduce your sneak atack or have as high a bluff skill typically.
So you wont see many doing it succesfully.

an idea for implementation...Perhaps IF could give you free attacks until the mob saves against your bluff (it gets +3 cumulative each attack) so you might get 1 attack or 3...

I


Nice idea. Actually, after even more practice, I think bluff just needs the following tweaks:
--Instant (like Diplomacy and Intimidate)
--No need to target (like Diplomacy and Intimidate)
--No facing requirement (like Diplomacy and Intimidate)

Luthen
01-14-2008, 11:05 PM
I can't think of any reason why Bluff isn't instant like Intimidate and Diplomacy. It doesn't make much sense. Bluff, in it's current form is even less useful than Intimidate and Diplomacy were before they wer changed to instant. It should be made instant and therefore useful.

I made a new build (new for me). When complete he will be 13 Rogue//2 Ranger//1 Fighter. At level 1 of my Rogue I discovered immediately how useless Bluff is. I still put a point into it every level, just in case they fix it, but I never use it. I do, however, ALWAYS use Diplomacy. Works 1000x better then Bluff anyways. My 2wf Rogue build hits something first and gets massive backstab damage and draws instant aggro. I then click my Diplomacy and poof... no more aggro and I get a bunch more Backstab shots in before I draw aggro again. Rinse and Repeat.

FYI: Nothing beats backstabbing a Beholder, getting it's attention, and then Diplomacy it to watch it turn around and proceed to eat your team who thought you were going to take care of it. Diplomacy on my new build is the most fun I've had with a spell or ability since Cometfall was introduced. I derive much satisfaction from it.

Hvymetal
01-15-2008, 05:52 AM
I made a new build (new for me). When complete he will be 13 Rogue//2 Ranger//1 Fighter. At level 1 of my Rogue I discovered immediately how useless Bluff is. I still put a point into it every level, just in case they fix it, but I never use it. I do, however, ALWAYS use Diplomacy. Works 1000x better then Bluff anyways. My 2wf Rogue build hits something first and gets massive backstab damage and draws instant aggro. I then click my Diplomacy and poof... no more aggro and I get a bunch more Backstab shots in before I draw aggro again. Rinse and Repeat.

FYI: Nothing beats backstabbing a Beholder, getting it's attention, and then Diplomacy it to watch it turn around and proceed to eat your team who thought you were going to take care of it. Diplomacy on my new build is the most fun I've had with a spell or ability since Cometfall was introduced. I derive much satisfaction from it.
Diplomacy also helps the Barbs and their fragile ego, it lets them think that thay actually are holding all the aggro:)

llevenbaxx
01-15-2008, 07:46 AM
Nice idea. Actually, after even more practice, I think bluff just needs the following tweaks:
--Instant (like Diplomacy and Intimidate)
--No need to target (like Diplomacy and Intimidate)
--No facing requirement (like Diplomacy and Intimidate)

So you want to make Bluff into Improved Feint?

Thats what you seem to be describing. What then would be the benefit of going two feats further for IF?

Cambo
01-15-2008, 09:22 AM
So you want to make Bluff into Improved Feint?

Thats what you seem to be describing. What then would be the benefit of going two feats further for IF?
How about..every second attack a sneak attack due to a fancy feint move with the previous attack...on while its toggled as a stance..lol

llevenbaxx
01-15-2008, 09:42 AM
How about..every second attack a sneak attack due to a fancy feint move with the previous attack...on while its toggled as a stance..lol

Not bad.. or matby make it function like smite currently does. Keep the relatively short timer IF is on and make the feint and the attack happen in the same motion. That would work for this hotkey junkie.

Coldin
01-15-2008, 11:01 AM
Not bad.. or matby make it function like smite currently does. Keep the relatively short timer IF is on and make the feint and the attack happen in the same motion. That would work for this hotkey junkie.

I believe that's how it used to be back at launch, but it wasn't working properly, so they changed it to it's current implementation. Not sure if the could change it back and have it work properly. I think the problem is that sneak attacks are tied up in the aggro system. That means that can't simply just make an attack add on sneak attack damage like they do with smite.

I still think one of the better ideas presented here is having Imp. Feint make a monster vulnerable to sneak attacks for a set time, akin to the "of deception" effect on weapons.