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Mhykke
09-30-2007, 06:25 PM
Apologize if brought up before.

Just want to make sure the description/spell is supposed to be working like this, b/c, well, it doesn't work.

Either the spell's broken, or the description isn't right. There's a thread on the sorc forums just started on this:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122561

lizardo666
09-30-2007, 09:17 PM
It IS broken, and I really haven't heard jack about if in-game, asked quite a few wizards too.

And yes it is a new post within the Sorc board, but I doubt those threads get much, or any browsing time by Turbine employees

So Kudos for (re)posting in the right area.

I will do a bunch of testing of halt vs command undead
Should land halt a tad more than command due to the
+1 DC (L2 spell vs L3 spell)

I know just from adventuring that undead are usually not too wise, and generally have more fighter levels then caster levels ...

So prob low will (except like wight priests, etc) and definately should have a low fort save (zero constitution)

So if you guys need info to reproduce the BUG, then follow my advice 3 paragraphs up, Im not sure if I will because Im a sorc ...

Vaporiser O'Herb L11 Sorc - Argonnessen

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 10:46 AM
You do realize it's only a "mez" on intelligent undead, right? So if they take damage (from a fireball or a whirlwind attack or a Barbarian on speed... er haste) they'll wake up.

Also, incorporeal undead have always been able to escape status effects by phasing out. It's annoying, but it's a long-standing bug.

Mad_Bombardier
10-01-2007, 11:19 AM
You do realize it's only a "mez" on intelligent undead, right? So if they take damage (from a fireball or a whirlwind attack or a Barbarian on speed... er haste) they'll wake up.

Also, incorporeal undead have always been able to escape status effects by phasing out. It's annoying, but it's a long-standing bug.Yes, but recently, undead have been making their saves 9/10 times. It has 1 higher spell DC than L2 Command Undead and fails 9 times as often.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 11:24 AM
Yes, but recently, undead have been making their saves 9/10 times. It has 1 higher spell DC than L2 Command Undead and fails 9 times as often.

Hmm that sounds weird then. I'll let you get back to your bug-reporting. :D

Aspenor
10-01-2007, 11:26 AM
I haven't used halt undead in I dont know how long, I'll load it up on my necromancer and see what I can do with some mod 5 mobs. If Stryyf can't get this spell to land at least 80% of the time on normal mobs, there is a bug. +12 casting stat modifier, 2 necromancy focus feats, and the SR napkin puts the DC at 32.

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 11:28 AM
Yes, but recently, undead have been making their saves 9/10 times. It has 1 higher spell DC than L2 Command Undead and fails 9 times as often.
I can just foresee it ending up that command is bugged ala holy smite and that none of them are supposed to work but 1/10 of the time. :p

Naso24
10-01-2007, 05:16 PM
I use command and control undead often, and they work as expected depending on the CR and what I perceive the save would be. Halt undead on the same mobs rarely works. Given that it can affect multiple enemies at one time, I would expect halt to actually land more often than command undead.

I wonder if halt is using the same check as turns (which pretty much always fail at higher levels), contrary to the spell description.

MysticTheurge
10-01-2007, 07:07 PM
I wonder if halt is using the same check as turns (which pretty much always fail at higher levels), contrary to the spell description.

It shouldn't have any kind of HD component according to the D&D rules.

captain1z
10-02-2007, 01:15 AM
I keep both those spells loaded on my caster regularly. Its an odd build I know, based 90% on crowd control.

My experience has been, without the hard numbers to back it up;

- command undead works for me about 90% of the time or more on most undead other than wights. Even if I use it from a clicky with my other characters its VERY reliable my 1-3 clicks all hit, rarely does 1 miss, but it does happen occasionally.

- Halt undead works very well vs regular skeletons, skeleton archers and ghost skeletons.....rarely on anything else. Wights ,ghosts and other types of skeletons usually make 3-4 saves b4 failing 1 if they ever fail at all.


to be fair my command undead very rarely works on blackbone skellies

Ghoste
10-02-2007, 01:24 AM
Also, incorporeal undead have always been able to escape status effects by phasing out. It's annoying, but it's a long-standing bug.
Damage over time spells, like melf's arrow still work properly on them.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-02-2007, 11:30 AM
A lot of undead do have high HD for their CR or the CR of the quest. This seems consistant with PnP, but it really surprised me to find this out.
However, Halt Undead a lvl3 spell lands way less than Command Undead a lvl 2 spell......shouldn't be that way. Also doesn't it say that non-intelligent undead do not get a save? Which undead are non-inteligent? I though anything based on a skellie or Zombie was supposed to be non-intelligent.
Doesn't seem like it in this game.
Halt undead does work, but seems to not work neraly good enough to me.

However, I do have a Sor that just owned delera's with this spell. She was able to land it on practially every skellie in there.....made that quest quite easy.
Now if it only worked in Xorian.

Missing_Minds
10-02-2007, 02:50 PM
It is my experience on my wizard that she could get the hold to work 1 in 10 tries. And command to work 7 out of 10 tries. Go figure.

Mhykke
10-02-2007, 03:15 PM
Something just ain't right....

MrCow
10-03-2007, 12:19 PM
I was asked to post my data from the thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1373299&posted=1#post1373299) in the sorcerer boards relating to this issue, so I shall.

**** Beginning direct rip of my posts ****

Ok, I went out and did some minor testing on a test subject with my low leveled wizard (so the test subject is fairly low in level too).

Monster: Tormented Bones, a basic CR 9 Skeleton

Casted 20 halt undead spells, 1 landed (it resisted 19).
The spell was cast at DC 21.

Casted 15 command undead spells and counted 5 iterations of a save to break free, 7 landed (it resisted 13).
The spell was cast at DC 20.

For more information on the possible will save of this critter it can be referenced and deduced at the online SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm). These are the likely relevant bits.


Hit Dice Challenge Rating
½ 1/6
1 1/3
2-3 1
4-5 2
6-7 3
8-9 4
10-11 5
12-14 6
15-17 7
18-20 8


Abilities

A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.


Features

An undead creature has the following features.
* 12-sided Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to ½ total Hit Dice (as wizard).
* Good Will saves.
* Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

So we are estimating a 20 hit dice monster with no WIS bonus and good will saves. This means the will save should be about 12. From this a DC 20 command undead should have landed/stuck on 8 of the 20 saves (at 7 times succeeding, I was close). Also, a DC 21 halt undead should have landed on 9 of the 20 saves (it landed 1 time, hardly a fluke).

I have no clue on the underlying extra saves that the undead are getting vs. halt undead if they are intelligent. Right now my best guess is they are either nearly immune, being granted double their will save vs. the spell, or something else along those lines.



For further testing I tested halt undead on several undead including blackbone thralls, various eternal skeletons, mummies, the different tormented skeletons and wights in Tomb of the Tormented, and zombies. All of them were eventually hit by a halt undead meaning they are not immune.



For this test I chose a target that I figured should give me minimal trouble with halt undead, but was intelligent as well.

Monster: Ghoul, a basic CR 1 intelligent undead critter

Casted 100 halt undead spells, 51 landed (49 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 10 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 21.

I have tested the low level critters for stats, HD, and other things and found that nearly every harbor critter on normal is a direct rip from the DnD monster manual. Accurate information (other than HP) can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm).


Ghoul
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +5

At a DC 21 casting and a will save of 5 I should have landed 16 out of 20 halt undead spells. With 100 spells cast at 10 of the 20 halt undead spells landing there is clearly a universal issue with halt undead on several (if not all) intelligent undead.

This ghoul in these tests displayed an effective save of 11. This leads me to believe that either that will save is being doubled or there is some hidden bonus in there. Without more testing I can't make a clear answer as to where this magic number is coming from.

All I know is halt undead is broken on intelligent undead.

**** Ending direct rip of my posts ****

MrWizard
10-03-2007, 10:11 PM
1- since I have been playing, halt undead has always caused teh undead to just stand there, even after being hit....for a while...long enough to kill in most instances.

2- The spell just does not act right.... I can take scrolls of it (with low dcs and all) into deleras on elite and they always worked fine... yet on other content near the same level, casting it with heighten and all teh extra dc stuff gets me 'save save save'...each dungeon seems to be set up for impossible saves or no saves.

3- on most higher content I have found it to be useless...as if heighten is not working.

I believe this spell is not working as intended in many aspects. If all high mobs are going to basically be immune to it, why not just say 'immune' instead of having us waste spell after spell?
I dropped my necro feats and am getting rid of it as it is really useless for the most part on the 10th level and above stuff...

except for elite thrall of necrop...where a scroll works fine... explain that?

MrCow
10-03-2007, 10:21 PM
I'll be glad to explain:


Halt Undead
This spell renders as many as three undead creatures immobile. A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw; an intelligent undead creature does. If the spell is successful, it renders the undead creature immobile for the duration of the spell (similar to the effect of hold person on a living creature). The effect is broken if the halted creatures are attacked or take damage.


halt undead has always caused teh undead to just stand there, even after being hit

Halt undead on an undead with no intelligence score has no saving throw, and therefore is unable to break free of the effect when hit.


I can take scrolls of it (with low dcs and all) into deleras on elite and they always worked fine... yet on other content near the same level

A bulk of the undead in Delera's is unintelligent and therefore gets no saving throw. Almost all other undead are intelligent and therefore get a saving throw.


on most higher content I have found it to be useless...as if heighten is not working.

That is the true issue we are looking into to solve.

Riddikulus
10-03-2007, 11:13 PM
Halt undead on an undead with no intelligence score has no saving throw, and therefore is unable to break free of the effect when hit.
The SRD doesn't read that way though... the effect is broken on attack is what it says. No save should not matter in that case.

MysticTheurge
10-04-2007, 07:36 AM
The SRD doesn't read that way though... the effect is broken on attack is what it says. No save should not matter in that case.

It is, however, how it's always worked in DDO.

Yaga_Nub
10-04-2007, 07:39 AM
It is, however, how it's always worked in DDO.

That's not an appropriate answer MT. If you are going to give that answer then the spell itself is fine because it's working just like it's always worked.

MysticTheurge
10-04-2007, 07:52 AM
That's not an appropriate answer MT. If you are going to give that answer then the spell itself is fine because it's working just like it's always worked.

Well, there's a bit of a difference between the magic system in general and the spell effects themselves.

The magic system (i.e. saves) seems to be broken with this spell somehow.

Yaga_Nub
10-04-2007, 07:59 AM
Well, there's a bit of a difference between the magic system in general and the spell effects themselves.

The magic system (i.e. saves) seems to be broken with this spell somehow.

A much better and more precise answer.

Off topic, aren't some skellies and ghouls special enough that they ARE considered intelligent?

I thought once they get to a certain level or cr rating they all have intelligence.

arcticwolf666
10-04-2007, 09:40 AM
So far the only issue I have with the halt undead, is that it works like it is supposed to against fighter type skeletons. Archer type skeletons are immobile anyways, and they still attack. So, halt undead really does not work on archers.

Mhykke
10-10-2007, 08:06 PM
Any answer from the devs on this?

Command undead, a lower level spell, works much, much better than halt undead.

Is the spell broken or the spell description? Something's missing.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-11-2007, 11:22 AM
I used this spell for the first time since Mod 5 recently. I was doing Catcombs on elite with my lvl8 Sor.
In part 3 there are huge mobs of undead. I spammed Halt Undead constantly and notcied some strange results.

Most of the undead would immediately get the pink hat as if they had failed their save and had been halted. However none of them immediately halted their movements. The normal Skeelies and Archers did eventually stop moving and stand there to be killed......The Drydens Ancesters and Ghouls stopped only about half of the time, but both seemed to immediately break free if they were damaged in any way.......seemed to work like Hypnotism.

I had never seen this before, but I had also never gotten a ghoul to be halted by this spell before.

The way I think this spell should work is for any skeelie or zombie to be immediately and forver halted with no save or resist whatsoever....just like the spell says.
All other undead should be intelligent and get a save......but like everyone points out it should be a lot easier to land this spell than it is.....also not all quests are equal for some reason.....This spell works ok in Delera's (maybe not as good as command, but *** does work) But is very hard to land on the Undead in Stormcleave for instance. The last part of Deleras is higher lvl than Stormcleave.....so I would think the success rate would be different from what I see in both quests.

Aspenor
10-11-2007, 11:24 AM
Oh I played with this on my necromancer, and am amused.

Monsters virtually NEVER fail their save on this spell. I believe heighten may not be working on it properly. My necro specced wizard with 32 DC on necro spells can't get this spell to land. There's issues.

MysticTheurge
10-11-2007, 12:42 PM
The Drydens Ancesters and Ghouls stopped only about half of the time, but both seemed to immediately break free if they were damaged in any way.......seemed to work like Hypnotism.

This is how the spell is supposed to work.

MrCow
10-11-2007, 12:45 PM
So far the only issue I have with the halt undead, is that it works like it is supposed to against fighter type skeletons. Archer type skeletons are immobile anyways, and they still attack. So, halt undead really does not work on archers.

Thats actually a general issue with archer AI across the board. It is not an issue with Halt Undead (or the issue we are trying to prove with halt undead).



Edit: I think I'll end up having to do more tests on this again today or tomorrow to get more data.

Mad_Bombardier
10-11-2007, 12:46 PM
The Drydens Ancesters and Ghouls stopped only about half of the time, but both seemed to immediately break free if they were damaged in any way.......seemed to work like Hypnotism.

This is how the spell is supposed to work.Well, at least the Hypnotism part. A Necromancy spec'd, min/max caster should be stopping them 90% of the time.

Yaga_Nub
10-11-2007, 02:27 PM
if you haven't tried to do SC in a while go to the part where the Giant with undead skellies is. Now all the skellies pop when you start running towards the giant. I was on my level 6 WF wizzy (24 int, SF and GSF:Necro,and +1 Necro Item), cast Halt Undead on a mass of blackbones and got the IMMUNE message. ***. I hate Blackbone skellies.

Riddikulus
10-11-2007, 02:30 PM
if you haven't tried to do SC in a while go to the part where the Giant with undead skellies is. Now all the skellies pop when you start running towards the giant. I was on my level 6 WF wizzy (24 int, SF and GSF:Necro,and +1 Necro Item), cast Halt Undead on a mass of blackbones and got the IMMUNE message. ***. I hate Blackbone skellies.
Yeah a group I was in found that out the hard way.

Silthe is an evil developer.

Evil!

arcticwolf666
10-12-2007, 09:11 AM
Yep, been testing Halt Undead, which I found out last night, works exactly like hypnotism. (Yes I know they do the same thing). Hypno is just as bugged as halt undead. I believe the hypno and halt undead share the same code.

On another note..
Anyone seen a paralyzing wpn, paralyze a monster, and the monster slides across the screen and holds to attack until the spell is saved or runs out of time? Or is it just me ;) (No, my wizzy does not have a paralyzer lol) *thinking*

arcticwolf666
10-12-2007, 09:12 AM
cast Halt Undead on a mass of blackbones and got the IMMUNE message. ***. I hate Blackbone skellies.

hehe

Mad_Bombardier
10-12-2007, 09:40 AM
Yep, been testing Halt Undead, which I found out last night, works exactly like hypnotism. (Yes I know they do the same thing). Hypno is just as bugged as halt undead. I believe the hypno and halt undead share the same code.Guys, the question is not how it works. The question is whether it is working at all. High level undead seem to make their saves on anything but a 1. And that is not right.

Mhykke
10-12-2007, 06:49 PM
Guys, the question is not how it works. The question is whether it is working at all. High level undead seem to make their saves on anything but a 1. And that is not right.

You've actually gotten them to fail the save? :D

Borror0
10-12-2007, 07:18 PM
It is, however, how it's always worked in DDO.


That's not an appropriate answer MT. If you are going to give that answer then the spell itself is fine because it's working just like it's always worked.

He meant that Devs probably wanted to give us an edge.

the mechanic is there, just look at Hypnostism. Now, if it's not working at high level, they at least need to say why and update the spell description.

Borror0
10-12-2007, 07:19 PM
Update the spell description.

You're dreaming too hard bro, they'd never to that. ;)

MysticTheurge
10-12-2007, 09:43 PM
You're dreaming too hard bro, they'd never to that. ;)

Quoting yourself is one thing. Calling yourself "bro" is something else. :p

Borror0
10-12-2007, 09:58 PM
Quoting yourself is one thing. Calling yourself "bro" is something else. :p

We ran out of medication today.

MrCow
10-13-2007, 10:32 AM
More test data with wraiths and specters:

Monster: Wraith, a CON munching CR 5 intelligent undead critter

Casted 68 halt undead spells, 17 landed (51 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 5 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 21.


Wraith
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +6

At a DC 21 casting and a will save of 6 I should have landed 15 out of 20 halt undead spells. I only landed 5 out of 20, showing an effective will save of 16 vs. halt undead. I'm not completely sure of what to make of this number.

Monster: Specter, an HD munching CR 7 intelligent undead critter

Casted 75 halt undead spells, 26 landed (49 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 7 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 21.


Specter
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +7

At a DC 21 casting and a will save of 7 I should have landed 14 out of 20 halt undead spells. I only landed 7 out of 20, showing an effective will save of 14 vs. halt undead. This is double of its will save (as in the wight example I had earlier in the thread).



So, it does seem likely that undead are getting double their will save vs. halt undead...

tomasdarkell
10-13-2007, 10:54 AM
So Devs,think you could pull yourselves away from giving infraction points and answer a legitamant Question for a monent?
Thanks :)

MysticTheurge
10-14-2007, 02:19 AM
You guys are bug reporting this in game too, right?

Mhykke
10-14-2007, 03:18 AM
You guys are bug reporting this in game too, right?

Yes, but how many times, every time I cast the spell? :D

MysticTheurge
10-14-2007, 09:53 AM
Yes, but how many times, every time I cast the spell? :D

I figured, but I thought I'd check. ;)

KoboldKiller
10-14-2007, 12:27 PM
So far the only issue I have with the halt undead, is that it works like it is supposed to against fighter type skeletons. Archer type skeletons are immobile anyways, and they still attack. So, halt undead really does not work on archers.

Actually I stopped all the skellie archers in Deleras last night with Halt. I do agree it does not work as well as you would think but it never failed against the melee, archer or ghostly skellies in Deleras. Level 5 Wizzy full run on norm if your interested.

MysticTheurge
10-14-2007, 04:08 PM
Actually I stopped all the skellie archers in Deleras last night with Halt. I do agree it does not work as well as you would think but it never failed against the melee, archer or ghostly skellies in Deleras. Level 5 Wizzy full run on norm if your interested.

The "No save for non-intelligent undead" seems to be working alright. It's a problem with the save values for intelligent undead that everyone is having a problem with.

Mhykke
10-15-2007, 04:25 PM
The "No save for non-intelligent undead" seems to be working alright. It's a problem with the save values for intelligent undead that everyone is having a problem with.

Do all high lvl undead count as intelligent? What about those walking corpses in the orchard? If they're not intelligent, then the save on unintelligent undead is broken as well.

MysticTheurge
10-15-2007, 04:31 PM
Do all high lvl undead count as intelligent?

A lot of them are going to be. Ghasts, Ghouls, Wraiths, Shadows, Quells, Wheeps, and so on, are all intelligent. Pretty much for unintelligent undead you're looking at Zombies and Skeletons (and not even, it seems, as kind of makes sense, Arcane Skeletons).


What about those walking corpses in the orchard? If they're not intelligent, then the save on unintelligent undead is broken as well.

Not the flesh golems, right? They're not undead and so won't ever be affected.

I haven't explored the orchard too much, so there may be some zombie types out there as well, I just haven't noticed them.

MrCow
10-15-2007, 06:15 PM
Do all high lvl undead count as intelligent?

With the exception of zombies, yes. Skeletons started turning intelligent the moment they earned titles and special types (blackbone, frostmarrow, tormented, etc.)

Mhykke
10-16-2007, 11:49 AM
Not the flesh golems, right? They're not undead and so won't ever be affected.

I haven't explored the orchard too much, so there may be some zombie types out there as well, I just haven't noticed them.


With the exception of zombies, yes. Skeletons started turning intelligent the moment they earned titles and special types (blackbone, frostmarrow, tormented, etc.)

Not the flesh golems. Was thinking of the harbinger corpses. They mill about like zombies, hard to imagine they're intelligent undead. Unless turbine basically decided any undead w/ a name is going to be classified as intelligent.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-16-2007, 12:05 PM
This is how the spell is supposed to work.

You might be right, but the description is vague. Also, I never noticed it working like this before.
In the past if the spell landed at all (only saw it land on Skellies and Zombies, ever) the baddie was halted for the duration of the batle even if you were wacking on him.
Sometimes archers could still fire, but this is true with all archer monsters and any hold effect.

The pink hat on their heads does look like hypnotism, so you might be right.

Maybe it only works like this on intelligent undead, and maybe I had to be significantly above their level to get it to work at all on intelligent undead, to see this effect.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-16-2007, 12:10 PM
if you haven't tried to do SC in a while go to the part where the Giant with undead skellies is. Now all the skellies pop when you start running towards the giant. I was on my level 6 WF wizzy (24 int, SF and GSF:Necro,and +1 Necro Item), cast Halt Undead on a mass of blackbones and got the IMMUNE message. ***. I hate Blackbone skellies.

That is new! wow.....
In the past, I think I saw an immune message, but I also think I was able to land this spell on them sometimes. (might be confused with the archers)
I do know it is extremely hard to get this spell to land in SC, but I have used it there with limited effect. However, it is relitively easy to get it to land in Delera's/Necro.

A very powerful spell in Deleras/Necro by the way. :)

MrCow
10-16-2007, 02:21 PM
Because I am just a bit annoyed of seeing the confusing for what intelligent undead are and what unintelligent undead are here is a list of most of the unintelligent undead:


Skeleton
Decrepit Skeleton
Skeleton Swordsman
Captain of the Guard
Skeleton Archer
Skeleton Arcus
Skeleton Knight
Skeleton Captain
Skeleton Veteran
Skeleton Skirmisher
Arcane Skeleton
Ghostly Skeleton
Zombie
Elf Zombie
Dwarf Zombie
Halfling Zombie
Entombed Concubine
Dread Zombie
Entombed Slave
Jezzerae (Named Zombie in Tomb of the Physician)
Necrotic Guard


I know I missed a couple in this list. There are a few I have yet to test also, like Gerti's Skeleton in The Missing Ward. Sorry. :)

Skeletons that are absolutely plain are almost always unintelligent. Skeleton variations (frostmarrow, shock, blackbone, giant, etc.) are intelligent.

Most zombies are not intelligent. Some, like the zombies introduced in module 5, are intelligent (tormented soul, harbinger corpse).

All other DDO undead are intelligent.

Yaga_Nub
10-16-2007, 02:36 PM
Skeletons that are absolutely plain are almost always unintelligent. Skeleton variations (frostmarrow, shock, blackbone, giant, etc.) are intelligent.


All other DDO undead are intelligent.

Is this a DDO thing or a DnD thing. I know it's been years since I actually was part of a PnP campaign but I don't remember skellies ever being intelligent.

Mhykke
10-16-2007, 03:23 PM
Because I am just a bit annoyed of seeing the confusing for what intelligent undead are and what unintelligent undead are here is a list of most of the unintelligent undead:

Skeleton
Decrepit Skeleton
Skeleton Swordsman
Captain of the Guard
Skeleton Archer
Skeleton Arcus
Skeleton Knight
Skeleton Captain
Skeleton Veteran
Skeleton Skirmisher
Arcane Skeleton
Ghostly Skeleton
Zombie
Elf Zombie
Dwarf Zombie
Halfling Zombie
Entombed Concubine
Dread Zombie
Entombed Slave
Jezzerae (Named Zombie in Tomb of the Physician)
Necrotic Guard
I know I missed a couple in this list. There are a few I have yet to test also, like Gerti's Skeleton in The Missing Ward. Sorry. :)

Skeletons that are absolutely plain are almost always unintelligent. Skeleton variations (frostmarrow, shock, blackbone, giant, etc.) are intelligent.

Most zombies are not intelligent. Some, like the zombies introduced in module 5, are intelligent (tormented soul, harbinger corpse).

All other DDO undead are intelligent.


In that case the spell is just broken on intelligent undead.

It would be nice if we could get a dev to say if the spell is at least working as intended (and if so, description needs a change).

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-16-2007, 04:41 PM
In that case the spell is just broken on intelligent undead.

It would be nice if we could get a dev to say if the spell is at least working as intended (and if so, description needs a change).

Or let us roll up a skeleton barbarian and then at least we can test this in PvP

Garth

MrCow
10-16-2007, 05:53 PM
Is this a DDO thing or a DnD thing. I know it's been years since I actually was part of a PnP campaign but I don't remember skellies ever being intelligent.

It is a DDO thing. By definition this is what a skeleton should have for ability scores:


Abilities

A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.

That means the only ability scores the DDO database should be changing are STR and DEX. CON, INT, WIS, and CHA are set in stone using the skeleton template.

Likewise, being we now have intelligent zombies DDO has violated another rule:


Abilities

A zombie’s Strength increases by +2, its Dexterity decreases by 2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.

*Shrugs*

MysticTheurge
10-16-2007, 07:48 PM
It is a DDO thing. By definition this is what a skeleton should have for ability scores:

That means the only ability scores the DDO database should be changing are STR and DEX. CON, INT, WIS, and CHA are set in stone using the skeleton template.

Likewise, being we now have intelligent zombies DDO has violated another rule:

*Shrugs*

Not all skeleton-like or zombie-like creatures in D&D are skeletons or zombies.

Mhykke
10-18-2007, 04:57 PM
Not all skeleton-like or zombie-like creatures in D&D are skeletons or zombies.

You just blew my mind :D

Yaga_Nub
10-19-2007, 11:19 AM
You just blew my mind :D

Well he IS MT afterall. :)

Solmage
10-20-2007, 04:45 PM
Hrm, I was hoping this would have been looked into after all this time.

From experience, it seems that the spell works oh about as well as a scroll, which means that regardless of your stats it seems stuck at a DC of 13 and no save vs a couple of enemies.

I'm guessing the code checks against a list of critter names, if it matches it doesn't allow a save, if it doesn't match then it tries to beat their saves, but without properly calculating the DC it should have. This would also account for how the spell seems to have two modes of operation: Against deleras-style skeletons, it works like hold person/monster and you can autocrit them over and over. Against other stuff, assuming it even lands, it only stops them for a few seconds or until they're hit once, whichever comes first.

(Now the spell is supposed to only stop them until they're damaged per PnP, but I really like the autocrit ...)

Mhykke
10-22-2007, 01:01 AM
Hrm, I was hoping this would have been looked into after all this time.

From experience, it seems that the spell works oh about as well as a scroll, which means that regardless of your stats it seems stuck at a DC of 13 and no save vs a couple of enemies.

I'm guessing the code checks against a list of critter names, if it matches it doesn't allow a save, if it doesn't match then it tries to beat their saves, but without properly calculating the DC it should have. This would also account for how the spell seems to have two modes of operation: Against deleras-style skeletons, it works like hold person/monster and you can autocrit them over and over. Against other stuff, assuming it even lands, it only stops them for a few seconds or until they're hit once, whichever comes first.

(Now the spell is supposed to only stop them until they're damaged per PnP, but I really like the autocrit ...)

Yeah, it'd be nice if we can get some kind of response, if nothing else to let us know that it's working as they intended..........and if not, to at least tell us they'll put it on the list of things to check out.

Yaga_Nub
10-22-2007, 08:26 AM
Yeah, it'd be nice if we can get some kind of response, if nothing else to let us know that it's working as they intended..........and if not, to at least tell us they'll put it on the list of things to check out.

I'd even be happy with no response here in the thread but seeing it listed on the WDA.

MrCow
10-24-2007, 10:43 AM
Today's test is brought to you by the letter "M", for Mummy. :D

Monster: Mummy, a walking fear machine CR 5 intelligent undead critter

Casted 80 halt undead spells, 24 landed (56 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 6 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 22.


Mummy
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +8

At a DC 22 casting and a will save of 8 I should have landed 14 out of 20 halt undead spells. I only landed 6 out of 20, showing an effective will save of 16 vs. halt undead.



Also for today we have the ghast.

Monster: Ghast, a sickening sickly-looking CR 3 intelligent undead critter

Casted 60 halt undead spells, 30 landed (30 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 10 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 22.


Ghast
Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +6

At a DC 22 casting and a will save of 6 I should have landed 16 out of 20 halt undead spells. I only landed 10 out of 20, showing an effective will save of 12 vs. halt undead. This reinforces my double will save theory again.



This makes for 4 monsters that have shown a double will save vs. halt undead (the ghast, mummy, specter, and ghoul tests). One test is a bit off (wraith) and one will be darned hard to prove because I lack the DC to make halt undead land more than 5% of the time (tormented skeleton). As my usual disclaimer goes, believe what you want from this data.

Yaga_Nub
10-25-2007, 06:20 AM
As my usual disclaimer goes, believe what you want from this data.

This data shows me that I would like you to test on Vampires..... because I'm scared too!

Mhykke
10-28-2007, 12:41 PM
All that data and work by MrCow, and still no response from the devs?

Yaga_Nub
11-05-2007, 03:17 PM
Hey Mr. Cow, have you tested on vampires yet?

MrCow
11-05-2007, 06:34 PM
This data shows me that I would like you to test on Vampires..... because I'm scared too!

Between my reaver/render/flenser thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=125680) and my current search for "what is the HD of this undead" in response to the turn undead thread... nope, I haven't tested vampires.

Vampires are kinda tricky to test on because it is harder for me to get an idea of what they have for a will save. I have no good way to find their WIS (due to disease immunity) and I don't know what they have for HD progression. I will put it on the list of things to do though if you tell me what vampires to test (that I can test solo and can be halted).

Oh, and while you're at it, find someone to cast greater heroism on you. That will cure your fear problem.


All that data and work by MrCow, and still no response from the devs?

I don't ever expect a Developer response or even a Customer Service Representative response. I gather this data out of two reasons: I have a crazed lust for knowledge of how things work behind the scenes and I like to keep the community informed with whatever I can find. From here, I leave it up to the community to raise the issue further, show that I made a mistake, or drop the issue. I'm quite content to just plug away at testing and testing and testing.



Edit:

Ok Yaga, I played with a vampire for you. Although after playing with the vampire I fear that it has an issue further than halt undead, but that is for later to reveal.

Monster: Vampire Knight of Vol, a blood sucking CR 14 intelligent undead critter

Casted 50 halt undead spells, 29 landed (21 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 12 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 22.

I had to go about a rather lengthy way to find the supposed will save of the Vampire Knight of Vol. First of all, I had to get a Vampire Priest of Vol nuke me over and over and over so that I could find its WIS.
(DC 23 flame strike ---> 23 - base 10 - spell level 5 = Wis Modifier of 8 ---> 10 + 8 * 2 = WIS of 26 or 27)
From here I intimidated it over and over and over until I found the minimum point where I could intimidate it.
(DC 32 intimidate ---> 32 - base 10 - Wis modifier of 8 = 14 HD)

The Vampire Knight of Vol has the same CR and racial type as the Vampire Priest of Vol (as well as following the idea of gaining player class levels) so they would have the same HD. Knowing the Vampire Knight of Vol had 14 HD I went on to intimidating it over and over and over to find its WIS.
(DC 25 intimidate ---> 25 - base 10 - 14 HD = Wis modifier of 1, or a WIS of 12-13)
Undead critters with 14 HD have a will save of 9 and add another +1 from WIS to get a total of 10. With this number in mind I could proceed to test halting the vampire.


Vampire Knight of Vol
Fort +4, Ref +??, Will +10

At a DC 22 casting and a will save of 10 I should have landed 12 out of 20 halt undead spells. I DID land 12 out of 20, showing an effective will save of 10 vs. halt undead. This goes against everything I found out earlier so I had to run another test. I pulled out a trusty cursespewer with precision on and did extended halt undeads on this curious vampire so that I could whack it repeatedly.

I hit it 500 times with a cursespewer, 408 curses landed (92 curses got resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this is 4 out of 20.
The effective DC of a cursespewer while the victim is cursed is 19 (15 + 4 for being cursed).

At a DC 19 curse barrage and saving 4 out of 20 times this gave the vampire a predicted will save of 5.

At a predicted will save of 5 and an effective will save of 10 vs. halt undead my double will save vs. halt undead is given more strength.



Oh... and would you rather I not bug report this vampire for having a will save of 5 less than it should? :D

Yaga_Nub
11-06-2007, 11:35 AM
Cow aren't you glad that I asked you to do this? I bet you nearly wet yourself when the halt undead spell actually worked as it was supposed to work.

I say bug report the issue, why should halt undead work on the Vampire Knights and nothing else. Might as well make the spell equally useless across the board.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-06-2007, 11:36 AM
My Wiz14 with 32Int can get just about every other spell in the game to land about 80% of the time on almost any opponent. Maybe not true of will save spells on casters. Actually, my success rate seems a lot higher than 80%.

However, I can not land hardly any halt undeads in any lvl appropriate quest.
That doesn't seem right.

But it looks like some of you have researched the exact numbers with credible evidence. But even with twice their will save, I would think I would have a better success rate.....say 1/3+.

On another note my lvl8 Sor with 25Char did The graverobber the other day and it worked perfectly on the Dread Zombies....would support the idea of no save for unintelligent undead. (I mostly mention this because there are a lot!!! of dread zombies in that quest....becames a cake walk with halt undead)

MrCow
11-06-2007, 12:49 PM
Cow aren't you glad that I asked you to do this? I bet you nearly wet yourself when the halt undead spell actually worked as it was supposed to work.

Warforged don't wet themselves, but it did startle the heck outta me when I tested halt undead to see the numbers seem unbroken. Although, after testing the vampire for its true will save (opposed to the will save it should have) I found halt undead in the broken pile along with this vampire's will save.


But even with twice their will save, I would think I would have a better success rate.....say 1/3+.

Give me a quest/difficulty/monster that is "level appropriate" and I will do my best to try and find its will save (or at worst, estimate its will save) and explain why it saves so well.

Although, in general:


Undead have good will saves. They get +2 to start with at 1 HD and get +1 will save every even HD until 20 HD (so will save of 12 at 20 HD). After this, every even HD in the epic levels nets another +1 will save.

Skeletons and Zombies tend to have high HD per CR, netting them high will saves without a WIS bonus.

Vampires tend to be clerical and therefor have high WIS to net a high will save.

Ghouls tend to have moderate HD.

Wights tend to have moderate HD and a decent WIS.

Incorporeal things are just plain annoying to try and hit with halt undead. The will save isn't the issue here.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-06-2007, 01:04 PM
Warforged don't wet themselves, but it did startle the heck outta me when I tested halt undead to see the numbers seem unbroken. Although, after testing the vampire for its true will save (opposed to the will save it should have) I found halt undead in the broken pile along with this vampire's will save.



Give me a quest/difficulty/monster that is "level appropriate" and I will do my best to try and find its will save (or at worst, estimate its will save) and explain why it saves so well.

Although, in general:


Undead have good will saves. They get +2 to start with at 1 HD and get +1 will save every even HD until 20 HD (so will save of 12 at 20 HD). After this, every even HD in the epic levels nets another +1 HD.

Skeletons and Zombies tend to have high HD per CR, netting them high will saves without a WIS bonus.

Vampires tend to be clerical and therefor have high WIS to net a high will save.

Ghouls tend to have moderate HD.

Wights tend to have moderate HD and a decent WIS.

Incorporeal things are just plain annoying to try and hit with halt undead. The will save isn't the issue here.


Maybe it's just the good will saves, elite quests, and the twice the will save thing.
It's difficult to land a hold on a Hobgoblin caster in Gianthold, but I can do that about 1/3 the time......so I guess if he had twice his will save, it would seem like I could never land one.

I just know I cast a few Halt Undeads in the Orchard quests and quickly give up on it and start casting firewalls (again.....the only spell that ever seems to work in this game :( )

MrCow
11-06-2007, 02:53 PM
Well, here is an undead I haven't tested but know a decent amount about.

Wight Priest, Elite, CR 9

12 HD (or so)
22 WIS (or so)

Base will save of 8.
Add a will save of 6 from WIS.
Double that due to the halt undead bug.

Boom, effective will save of 28 vs. halt undead. Something you find in the mid level quests that you won't be able to hit well with that 32 INT wizard because a wizard of that INT is dropping DC 29 halt undeads (before any necromancy focus).

*Disclaimer - the math is an approximation from experience and educated guessing and has not been tested for complete accuracy.*


I just know I cast a few Halt Undeads in the Orchard quests and quickly give up on it and start casting firewalls (again.....the only spell that ever seems to work in this game )

Oh, there are plenty of spells that work in the game. The issue is how effective that wall of fire is in for most of the content in DDO and especially how effective it is for undead that aren't immune to fire.

For instance, Solid Fog + Sleet Storm (and tack on slow/hamstring/crippling for extra laughs) = monster doesn't move much. Those two spells can be highly useful together and any archer type would worship you for using spell combinations like that. Big issue is that people have a universal hatred for sleet storm without freedom of movement. :p

Yaga_Nub
11-07-2007, 02:15 PM
Warforged don't wet themselves, but it did startle the heck outta me when I tested halt undead to see the numbers seem unbroken. Although, after testing the vampire for its true will save (opposed to the will save it should have) I found halt undead in the broken pile along with this vampire's will save.


New assignment MrCow. Go test on the Abbott. :)

MrCow
11-07-2007, 02:42 PM
Not abbot raid ready and I'm still not flagged on any of my characers for the Reaver raid.

Besides, I can't test halt undead on the abbot as red/purple named mobs are immune to hypnosis style effects.

Find be a better, yet still viable, subject.

Yaga_Nub
11-08-2007, 03:31 PM
Not abbot raid ready and I'm still not flagged on any of my characers for the Reaver raid.

Besides, I can't test halt undead on the abbot as red/purple named mobs are immune to hypnosis style effects.

Find be a better, yet still viable, subject.

Okay I was being a little goofy on that one.

Once the new mod comes out and the Shadows phase rate is cut again maybe you will be able to test it on Shadows.

Until then I can't think of any other critters to test on.

DeadlyGazebo
11-19-2007, 11:46 AM
Ok, it's been looked into.

And should be fixed for module 6. May be a while before it hits the WDA, with thanksgiving causing people to be out of the office and all.

Some thanks are due to MrCow; his testing posts in this thread made it really easy to find the bug (and made it clear that there was a code bug with this spell, not just someone setting monster will saves annoyingly high).

ArkoHighStar
11-19-2007, 11:52 AM
Ok, it's been looked into.

And should be fixed for module 6. May be a while before it hits the WDA, with thanksgiving causing people to be out of the office and all.

Some thanks are due to MrCow; his testing posts in this thread made it really easy to find the bug (and made it clear that there was a code bug with this spell, not just someone setting monster will saves annoyingly high).

the gazebo returns:D

Shade
11-19-2007, 12:12 PM
Ok, it's been looked into.


Cool.. But the other thing you should consider is not making every undead in the game except deleras "intelligent" .. It just doesn't make sense that even trash undead that are no challenge have some special intelligent ability to be resistant to spells. I mean even the basic skeletons in Lotd parts 1-2 are all intelligent - but many are completely worthless and pose no challenge to players other then being there to give something to look at and slow the quest down..

So it wouldn't hurt to have a few of them at least non-intelligent and auto fail halt/command spells. Most aren't even worth the spell points to do so, but why not have the ability.

WeaselKing
11-19-2007, 12:43 PM
Cool.. But the other thing you should consider is not making every undead in the game except deleras "intelligent" .. It just doesn't make sense that even trash undead that are no challenge have some special intelligent ability to be resistant to spells. I mean even the basic skeletons in Lotd parts 1-2 are all intelligent - but many are completely worthless and pose no challenge to players other then being there to give something to look at and slow the quest down..

So it wouldn't hurt to have a few of them at least non-intelligent and auto fail halt/command spells. Most aren't even worth the spell points to do so, but why not have the ability.

My wiz has not ventured into the orchard too many times yet, but I know that in VoN 5 Halt works great on the zombies.

oronisi
11-19-2007, 12:54 PM
Ok, it's been looked into.

And should be fixed for module 6. May be a while before it hits the WDA, with thanksgiving causing people to be out of the office and all.

Some thanks are due to MrCow; his testing posts in this thread made it really easy to find the bug (and made it clear that there was a code bug with this spell, not just someone setting monster will saves annoyingly high).

Well I have to say thanks to you for looking into this, and thanks to MrCow and all the forumites that had this conversation and helped get the issue brought to light. Look at this...mmo forums can do good things sometimes!

Jaywade
11-19-2007, 01:06 PM
My wiz has not ventured into the orchard too many times yet, but I know that in VoN 5 Halt works great on the zombies.

you know that is funny.... I say that casue I love the dragon raid run in over and over.....I lead dragon raids, I'll join any pug dragon raid, I have the dragon boot's of 6 of my 9 toons ....I love Von 5 and 6....having said that I've never seen Halt undead cast in there....then the other day (Friday night maybe) I join a dragon raid w/ my 11th lvl sorc and the grp leader asked "do you have halt" I replyed w/ a What and Why? ........never seen that casted in there. I always thought they go down so fast ...kinda of funny

Lorien_the_First_One
11-19-2007, 01:09 PM
Ok, it's been looked into.

And should be fixed for module 6. May be a while before it hits the WDA, with thanksgiving causing people to be out of the office and all.

Some thanks are due to MrCow; his testing posts in this thread made it really easy to find the bug (and made it clear that there was a code bug with this spell, not just someone setting monster will saves annoyingly high).

Yay DG. Nice to see you, its been while. Although I always do visit you when I'm out in your encounter area....

MrCow
11-19-2007, 02:54 PM
Some thanks are due to MrCow; his testing posts in this thread made it really easy to find the bug (and made it clear that there was a code bug with this spell, not just someone setting monster will saves annoyingly high).

You are very welcome. :D

I am glad to see my testing data helped.

Mhykke
11-19-2007, 02:57 PM
Ok, it's been looked into.

And should be fixed for module 6. May be a while before it hits the WDA, with thanksgiving causing people to be out of the office and all.

Some thanks are due to MrCow; his testing posts in this thread made it really easy to find the bug (and made it clear that there was a code bug with this spell, not just someone setting monster will saves annoyingly high).

Thanks for looking into this!

Yaga_Nub
11-20-2007, 07:36 AM
This is great news! I'm glad that I'll be able to use this spell on a regular basis now.

Thank you MrCow for testing this spell on the various undead of DDO.

I still expect a test on the shadows and such when they are fixed with Mod 6.

That way we can be sure of 2 things - 1, the time between phasing is actually longer, and 2, the spell has been fixed.

brlftz
11-20-2007, 11:56 AM
Thanks Gazebo guy!

Kudos to MrCow for the research - that's amazing work, really. And thanks to Mhykke for raising the issue in the first place. This used to be a favorite spell, but as soon as I advanced past the Delera's stage, it suddenly and strangely became useless. Can't wait to add it back to my reportoire.

Yaga_Nub
12-18-2007, 12:55 PM
Ok, it's been looked into.

And should be fixed for module 6. May be a while before it hits the WDA, with thanksgiving causing people to be out of the office and all.

Some thanks are due to MrCow; his testing posts in this thread made it really easy to find the bug (and made it clear that there was a code bug with this spell, not just someone setting monster will saves annoyingly high).

Hey DeadlyG,

Is this still going to be fixed for Mod 6 or is something holding it up?

MrCow
12-18-2007, 08:06 PM
Good news everyone. It seems in Risia Halt Undead has been fixed! Currently I'm testing on a few monsters before I give my final verdict on this but these halted wraiths should prove somewhat pleasing.

Monster: Wraith, a CON munching CR 5 intelligent undead critter

Casted 210 halt undead spells, 163 landed (47 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 16 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 22.


Wraith
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +6

At a DC 22 casting and a will save of 6 I should have landed 16 out of 20 halt undead spells. I DID land 16 out of 20, showing an effective will save of 6 vs. halt undead!

Monster: Specter, an HD munching CR 7 intelligent undead critter

Casted 162 halt undead spells, 116 landed (46 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 14 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 22.


Specter
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +7

At a DC 22 casting and a will save of 7 I should have landed 15 out of 20 halt undead spells. I only landed 14 out of 20, but thats an acceptable difference (especially compared to what it was).

The future for halt undead looks good again.

Yaga_Nub
12-19-2007, 01:00 PM
Good news everyone. It seems in Risia Halt Undead has been fixed! Currently I'm testing on a few monsters before I give my final verdict on this but these halted wraiths should prove somewhat pleasing.

Monster: Wraith, a CON munching CR 5 intelligent undead critter

Casted 210 halt undead spells, 163 landed (47 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 16 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 22.



At a DC 22 casting and a will save of 6 I should have landed 16 out of 20 halt undead spells. I DID land 16 out of 20, showing an effective will save of 6 vs. halt undead!

Monster: Specter, an HD munching CR 7 intelligent undead critter

Casted 162 halt undead spells, 116 landed (46 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 14 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 22.



At a DC 22 casting and a will save of 7 I should have landed 15 out of 20 halt undead spells. I only landed 14 out of 20, but thats an acceptable difference (especially compared to what it was).

The future for halt undead looks good again.

Awesome! That's great news.

Now I'm back to my old complaint of WHY THE HECK THIS CAN'T BE ADDED TO THE WDA SINCE A DEV SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE FIXED FOR MOD 6!

MrCow
12-19-2007, 01:52 PM
It may not be in the WDA because it has not gone through and verified by QA. That would be the most likely scenario (that I can think of). They are more likely looking to fix and verify things like new spells that are massively broken (like Sunburst and Holy Aura) rather than current spells that are moderately broken.

Yaga_Nub
12-19-2007, 02:55 PM
It may not be in the WDA because it has not gone through and verified by QA. That would be the most likely scenario (that I can think of). They are more likely looking to fix and verify things like new spells that are massively broken (like Sunburst and Holy Aura) rather than current spells that are moderately broken.

I might be able to go along with that theory but Sunburst and Holy Aura are in the WDA and present on Risia. The "fixed" Halt Undead is obviously present on Risia so it to should be in the WDA because it must have made it through some preliminary QA testing to even be on Risia.

MrCow
12-19-2007, 03:15 PM
Whatever the case for Halt Undead's fix not being in the WDA I am enjoying seeing undead halted with more than 5% chance of success on the higher end of the game.

Yaga_Nub
12-19-2007, 03:19 PM
Whatever the case for Halt Undead's fix not being in the WDA I am enjoying seeing undead halted with more than 5% chance of success on the higher end of the game.

Me too! Now my necro can actually be a necro........... mancer not philiac. :)

Mad_Bombardier
01-21-2008, 11:23 AM
Sorry for the necro folks. I had to link the WDA's listing for a Halt Undead fix! :D Thanks Devs!

NEW Halt Undead now uses the correct save DC.

MysticTheurge
01-21-2008, 11:28 AM
/casts Halt Undead Thread now with the appropriate save DC.

;)

Yaga_Nub
01-21-2008, 04:51 PM
Sorry for the necro folks. I had to link the WDA's listing for a Halt Undead fix! :D Thanks Devs!

Yeah I saw that and I was very happy that it was finally added to the WDA.

captain1z
01-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Nice piece of work ya did there MrCow.


Thorough at best.............. OCD at worst


Awesome job either way.